City keep losing; Chelsea keep winning. Plus sackings and the greatest saves
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. Well, thank God for Ahmad Diallo. That is not just the view of jubilant Manchester United fans, but also journalists and editors across the land as the United winger sparked a dull derby into life in the final moments of the game. On today's show, we'll talk about a remarkable match at the Etihad Stadium, Ruben Amarim's tough love with Marcus Rashford and another...

Defeat for Manchester City and Pep Guardiola. We'll also discuss Chelsea-Tottenham, two sackings in the Premier League, and ask, did Emi Martinez make the best save we've ever seen? I'm Tom Clarke, and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist, Alison Rudd.

the football writer and Times columnist James Gearbrand. And hopefully at some point the trains sort themselves out and Tom Ornott will burst into the studio as well with some views on Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa. But thankfully, while we wait for Tom, we have the perfect deputy as Paul Hurst joins us down the line from Manchester to discuss the derby. Hurstie, hello.

Hello, how are you doing?

I wanted to ask you first, as I always like to do with all you guys when you are at games, about the atmosphere. Because I felt like that even came through on the telly that in the Etihad, both before City scored and even after they'd scored, there was the perfect kind of symbol for what a difficult time this club is in at the minute is just how nervous the Etihad seemed at all times.

Yeah, it started off really positively. They unveiled three banners in the stadium, a giant one of Pep, and then a couple poking for the United saying you'll never win four titles in a row. And there's a light show as well, which I'm a bit partial to. And then it all started off really positively. I just thought if City get a goal in the first 10 minutes here, they could really bulldoze

but then I thought that is the city of old. We don't see that from the current Man City team. So you're right, the nervousness kicked in quite early on. I

I just felt that they were just passing it along the back four quite slowly, City, and moving it around very, you know, give it to someone else, they'll do something with it. It was that kind of mantra. And you just saw so many simple errors. De Bruyne not beating the first man with his crosses and Gundogan not losing possession. Just these kind of...

just never used to happen. It always used to be so fluid with Man City, so fluent. But now they just don't have that in their locker. They seem really nervous, really edgy. And Pep said that after the match. He said they were really anxious. And for a team that's won so many trophies under him...

to suddenly collapse like this in terms of their confidence and their quality and their skill is remarkable really and even when they went 1-0 up no one really thought you know they'll kick on now because they've been so steady in the first half an hour and not really very adventurous I thought well they're just going to probably try and see it play out for a 1-0 win and

you know, that is so un-Guardiola-like, but he would have taken it, obviously. And then, you know, at the end, it was just chaos, really. They're prone to a collapse. When they concede a goal, they always look as if the next attack is going to result in another goal going in. They're just so kind of, so weak at the back at the moment in the midfield that...

So, you know, if United have, you know, probably played another five minutes, they'd probably scored another goal. City were that weak, that vulnerable. So, yeah, it was just a, it just summed up, that game summed up where City are at at the moment. Hurstie, can I ask you, it might sound a silly question, actually, it's really important.

How are you as a journalist coping? Because all you've done is had to write about the magnificence of Manchester City and you've known what to expect when you see them. Have you adapted really quickly to the new normal that City are rubbish?

Well, luckily, Man United have been rubbish for the last 10 years. I've just switched, you know, I've just changed the word city, United for city in the intro. Yeah, it is really bizarre. It's so strange.

just, there are kind of parallels about how, you know, how United have been. I know it's a bit flippantly saying that, but there are so many problems that City are facing now that United have faced in the last few years. You know, the need for a revamp of the squad, you know, aging players, players losing confidence and the manager, manager losing confidence as well. And,

So, yeah, there are parallels there, but it's very, very strange just writing about City and talking about them like that at the moment. And obviously, you've got to remind yourself in the back of your head that Pep Guardiola is one of the greatest managers of all time and he's won so many trophies for City. So, he's got so much credit in the bank, but he won't be... He's not bothered about that. He knows that he's got to get this team...

into the top four this season. Now, I was talking to someone last week who knows him well, who's spoken to him quite a lot recently, and he was saying that they're viewing this as a season of survival, really, just get into that top four and then we can start rebuilding the squad because they've got enough money to do it. They sell a lot of players. The accounts...

came out last week and showed this over the last two years. I think they've made about 100, 200, 250 million in profit in sales. And that's excluding the likes of Julian Alvarez. So there's more to come as well. There's plenty in the bank. They've just got to

they've just got to spend it very wisely because it is going to be a really big summer ahead for them.

I wanted to ask you about Marcus Rashford, Alejandro Garnaccio left out of the squad for this game. Ruben Amrim talking very interestingly, both on television and in the press conferences that we discussed yesterday about this decision. Talk to us a little bit about that and what this says about his early time at Manchester United.

Well, just to give the listeners a rundown of what he said in the press conference, he said, it's not a disciplinary thing. It's about the performance in training. It's about performance in games, the way that you dress, the way that you eat, the way that you engage with your teammates and the way you push with your teammates. When people in our club are losing their jobs, we've got to set our standards really high. So that to me is...

he's hammering him laying down the law. He clearly hasn't seen what he'd liked from Rashford and Garnaccio in training, in terms of their body language, in terms of their relationship with the other players in the squad. And he just said, right, no, you know, what...

he got them in training on Saturday sorry on Sunday morning at the training ground and they were training there while the rest of the team were going to play a derby and especially someone like Marcus Rashford a homegrown kid yeah who's had so many great moments in derbies as well amazing you know amazing performances and goals and

ending Martin Di Michele's career in one game at the Etihad and I just remember that is an outstanding kind of memory of Manchester derbies in the last decade or so but he just wasn't part of it but Amram is very clever he's such a we spoke about this before about how he's really

He's a really charming guy. He's very, in press conferences in particular, he knows how to praise players and knows how to G them up. But he's also got a ruthless side to him. And if you cross that, if you are not at the levels that he thinks you should be, then he won't waste any time with you.

you know, you're out, you're gone. So that is, and he's done it, he's very clever, he's done it now when he's got a lot of credit in the bank. Not many people expected him to win on Sunday. So even if they'd lost, it would have been, you know, so what, it doesn't matter. He's,

it's important that he's laying down this, he's setting the expectations out for the players. So it's a really bold and really, really clever move and it paid off. Yeah, and as Charlotte, our colleague, was writing on the Times website today, it made it all the worse probably for Marcus Rashford and Garnaccio that Ahmed Diallo is the star of the show. Just embodying a lot of the things that Ruben Amarin wants, enthusiasm, drive, energy, running like mad dogs, I think he said in a recent press conference, didn't he?

His emergence in this game, it spoke everything about what he's trying to do and maybe what the other players aren't giving him.

Yeah, and this is, it's been a great season for Ahmad. I remember when they put him up for a press conference in pre-season when we were on tour with United in America, he kept talking about how he wanted to be a regular and I was just thinking, where do you really fit in? You know, you're not as good as Rashford, you're not as good as Garnaccio, but then he's just, it's his work, really, it's his,

it's his dedication to the profession that has got him into the team and he's justified his selection at the moment whether that's at wing back or on the wing and Van Nistelrooy was saying when he was in temporary charge that Ahmad always stops and asks for extra training can I work on my headers can I work on my crossing can I work on my finishing and

and when someone's doing that then you've got to give him a place in your team because otherwise if you don't then he becomes disheartened and then other players look at that and say well you know Amman's working he's running around and doing everything that he can to get in the team and he's not getting a place in the

in the side so you've got to give him a go and he's justified that selection with his performances Yeah Ruben Ammar improving why he's a better football manager than me I did my wild card on fantasy football recently Alison put Ahmad Diallo in my squad left him on the bench just 13 points sat there after this Manchester derby Hurstie I'm going to let you go in just a second but I wanted to ask you a final question on Guardiola because I'm then going to open it up to the guys in the studio

Pep, you know, post-match press conferences, as I try and tell the listeners all the time when I'm in the office editing, you guys ring in from the matches, what have the managers said and things. I've found Guardiola's reaction to these performances of late fascinating, you know, and yesterday coming out with, I'm not good enough, is a startling thing to say. And I just thought for him saying that in relation to your point earlier about the players looking nervous, these top players looking annoyed and nervous, I

Is there a sense, and we were discussing this on last Thursday's show, that yes, he signed this new contract, and of course, you don't sack Pep Guardiola, you never do, but thinking about Jurgen Klopp's departure from Liverpool where you had a top manager who just said, do you know what, actually, this has actually gone too far. I'm not suggesting that that'll happen in any time soon,

But is there a sense with Guardiola that he's just so lost that that is also playing a part with the players as well, that they're looking to their leader, their great leader, and going, God, he's saying he's not good enough. What's going on? Yeah.

Well, he's never experienced this before. That's why he looks so lost. And yeah, when he came out with that line yesterday, I was just a bit... This is so out of character for him. You know, the confident guy who's won everything before. He just needs something. He either needs a new...

new point of view being put to him you know whether he brings in I'm not suggesting it'll happen because he seems pretty happy with his backroom staff but you remember Alex Ferguson always used to say he always used to rotate he used to get rid of his assistant didn't he every two or three years or change just to give a different viewpoint or does he bring in they have to sign someone in January and at least one midfielder I imagine that would give him a bit of confidence and

But certainly, he's been really bullish in his press conferences up until about two weeks ago. Then we've seen him really bear his soul quite often recently. I think we've suddenly seen a vulnerable Pep and that has never been the case before. He's always been really bullish, really confident and he's always really defended his players as well. He said that again yesterday, I thought he played really well, but...

do you really believe that? You know, you can't believe that. The football purist that he is can't actually believe that he's happy with Gundogan not passing the ball five yards to a teammate in space. You know, so it's, yeah, he's going through a world of proper turmoil at the moment. So we'll, we'll,

We'll see how that plays out. But yeah, he's really suffering at the moment. Yeah, absolutely. A dull Manchester derby, but fascinating insight from Paul Hurst, the Manchester man. Thank you very much for joining us, Hurst. We'll speak to you soon. Thank you. Cheers. There we go, guys.

I said it was a boring game, but loads and loads for us to talk about. I'm just going to run you through a few stats that I've got that I thought summarised some of the points that Hurstie was making. It took until the 21st minute for either side to attempt a shot in this game. That came from Phil Foden. The longest wait on record, which is around 20 years, for the first shot in a Manchester derby in the Premier League. City scoring in the 36th minute, which is the game's first shot on target. City have lost only four of 105 Premier League home games in which they've been ahead at half-time under Pep Guardiola.

with half of those defeats coming against Manchester United. And another point that Hurstie touched on briefly in there, in terms of average age Manchester City starting 11, 28 years and 137 days, with the oldest name by either side in a Manchester derby since April 2017. Just a few points there, James, that you could either pick up on or just offer your own insights because you were watching this game at home, thinking about some of the things Hurstie said,

Go either way. Man United, Man City, Pep Guardiola. There's loads to talk about. What did you make of this game? I'm fascinated on what we were saying about Pep Guardiola because to me that is a live and interesting issue. You've got a manager who, of course, is, in my opinion, quite possibly the greatest club football manager, I mean, certainly of the 21st century. But

he's not by his own admission he's not doing a good job at the moment he's not getting the most out of the players at his disposal what I'm really reminded of what this current City spell really reminds me of

It's the famous Borussia Dortmund season in Jurgen Klopp's last season at Borussia Dortmund, where in that sense of both the suddenness of a good team just suddenly not knowing where their next win is coming from, and also that kind of incomprehension that what is happening to us, but also...

How do we, not knowing how to get yourself out of it, how do you, it's hard to know how to stop losing when you've never had to know how to stop losing. Yeah, that's true. But the really interesting thing, obviously, and the point I was coming to is that we've seen two entirely different, you know, managerial resolutions in those two situations. Klopp and Dortmund sort of mutually came to the decision that, you know,

Things had run their course and, you know, his voice had grown stale or whatever and the messages just weren't going through. City have obviously extended Guardiola and are now in a position where we're in 2024 and City are playing pretty rubbish football. But Guardiola's contract now runs until the season that ends in 2027. That feels an awfully long time away. And, you know...

Pep is an unbelievable manager. He's brilliant. And I think there's a big chance that he turns this around ultimately somehow. That he does what Sir Alex Ferguson was famously so brilliant at and finds a way to regenerate the team. But the longer this goes on, the more and more you feel...

maybe there's a chance that he doesn't. Particularly because we're seeing so many signs of him sort of talking about the fact that he's not sleeping well or talking about the fact that he's sort of having stomach issues. This is getting to him. This is on a very, very human level. It's an incredibly demanding job. He's done it for an awfully long time.

you know, people burn out, you know, people, cycles come to an end and I just wonder if that decision to extend the contract now looks a little bit hasty in my side. Tom Allnut's here. Tom Allnut's birthday. I said at the intro before you were here that you were going to burst into the studio but you did, it's like a kind of cat burglar. You just snuck in, shuffled in past the cameras. Christmas decorations had to be sort of removed, you know, from my head a little bit. It's fine, but you're here with us now and you can offer your views on Pep Guardiola. Well, I was just going to say that maybe, you know,

The whole kind of premise of Pep staying, I think, was he felt he needed to stay because he felt he couldn't leave City in this precarious situation. That's been kind of the narrative over the last few weeks is that how could I leave at this point? You know, I have to fix this myself.

But at what point does that kind of start to shift where if Pep starts to think that he, I wouldn't say so strongly to say that he's the problem, but if he thinks that he is no longer the person to fix it, then that doesn't add up anymore. If he thinks I'm too tired, I haven't got the energy, I haven't got the solutions anymore, the players aren't listening to me, whatever that is, if he actually thinks...

the way to fix this is for there needs to be a fresh voice then they might rethink it right I mean I agree I mean they're never going to sack Pep Guardiola but it seems to me not inconceivable but if this kind of run continues in the summer he says actually you know what someone else is yeah do you know what it reminded me of everyone Batman

The Dark Knight. You know when he says, you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. And that is the choice that these managers face, isn't it? You either leave waving to everyone, like Jurgen Klopp did. Jurgen Klopp called it perfectly, didn't he? He was like, I've had enough. And, you know, they won one trophy, they might have won a few more, but he bowed out and, you know, even now to the point where Liverpool can be at the top of the table and still there's deluded Liverpool fans missing Jurgen Klopp. We won't get into that. But,

Pep Guardiola's thinking gosh this could be really difficult Alison this could be it could be Alex Ferguson it could be regeneration it could be two and a half years and at the end he gets to walk out as the hero still or

Or it could be two really difficult years, which ultimately end with him going, I can't, no, I can't do it anymore. I don't, the way he's behaving now, I can't see him coping with two difficult years. It looks like he can't cope with two difficult weeks to be honest. But whenever people say Pep Guardiola, I think it's been said three times on this show already, obviously the best manager we've ever seen. Yeah.

You will get people saying, but could he do it with Watford? Yeah. Could he do it with Coventry? I'm actually shocked that you've bitten on that, actually. I didn't see that coming at all. I'm joking. Obviously, I saw that coming a mile off. And this was his chance to show that, actually, I am capable of managing a situation. I don't just have a setup that was designed for me, the best players for my system, money is no object.

He's been quite, as managerial appointments go, his was the most spoiled. And this is the moment when, surely, you prove your worth as the best manager in the universe because things are difficult. Things are difficult. You've got an ageing squad. You've got key injuries. These things happen to all managers, by the way. And the best ones are the ones that, look at the jigsaw puzzle in front of them, rejig it, find a new system, bring in players from the academy, and then,

Jurgen Klopp did that with Liverpool and they had a terrible injury crisis and suddenly Liverpool were fielding players nobody had heard of

But because they have an excellent system at Liverpool where the academy players play in the same system as the first team, they were able to slot in effortlessly. Why isn't this happening at City? Why are we seeing the same mistakes being made by the ageing players in midfield? Well, it's because they've sold all the best young players, that's why. Well, exactly. But, you know, it just strikes me as a really important moment in the legacy of Liverpool

of Pep, how he, what he does next. Will they just spend their way out of it in the January transfer window? Possibly. But it'd be really nice to see him do more than just damage his skin and say he's not sleeping well and he's not good enough. So you want the two-year regeneration, you want him to show what James is talking about, what I'm talking about when I say, oh, he's the greatest. I mean, he might feel, you know,

the people close to him might be saying come on you know just take a break but I think that will truly damage his legacy what's he achieved if he can't cope when the times are difficult but also I mean you look at the way Klopp handled it and Ferguson they were both sort of

coming downward a little bit the trajectory was both coming down Ferguson I think knew that his kind of control of that era was definitely subsiding I think the same with Klopp we know that two years ago was it when they had that season with the midfield didn't have enough legs in it and

That was almost a similar season, but in both cases, they sort of found it within them to kind of have one last push, almost just to kind of like save the legacy to say, right, Ferguson wins that last title and says, okay, now I'm done. Klopp, similarly last season, you know, great season, says I'm done. You know, I wonder if Guardiola, it might not be a whole new rebuild where he thinks I'm going to build a whole new team with all these new young players, but maybe he thinks, okay, this is a...

you know, survival season and next season he just creates one last team to kind of finish it off. Yeah, well let's talk about Manchester United just to finish because we're talking lots about Manchester City and we do get lots of listeners, lots of you United fans out there who say, you never talk about us only in the bad times. Hey, you won the game. Ahmad Diallo's great. But James, thinking about some of the points that Paul Hurst made there, both about Ahmad Diallo and Ruben Amorim, you know, this kind of

smiling assassin who comes out and charms everyone in the press conferences and listen I'm the cynical editor but I'm watching it on Sky Sports going you've got the chat mate you know what you're doing you know what you're doing because he's smiling his way through the fact that he's dropped one of the most important players in Manchester United's recent history and he's explaining it and I'm going what a good guy he's just a good manager it's all making sense James what have you made of his performances so far?

Yeah, I mean, I've said before, I think he's in the kind of public facing part of the role. I think he's really good. Like he's, you know, very charismatic, very believable. And I thought that he, like the answers that he gave about the Rashford and Garnaccio situation were basically like quite good. The way that he sort of, you know, said we have kind of, you know, minimum standards that we need to hit in terms of sort of, you know, general sort of,

and sort of, you know, I think that was what he was driving at, right? Sort of, you know, just being on it in training, but also kind of stopping short of throwing them under the bus and saying that, you know, it's not a disciplinary issue, you know, next week, new page. I mean, I thought that was all... Well, you're going to the game on Thursday. Maybe you're going to see both of them, you know, unleashed against Tottenham in the quarterfinals. Maybe. I think generally as well, I think...

I think overall, it was obviously very, very early, but I think definitely I was at the game against Arsenal, which obviously ultimately they lost and obviously they have this huge problem defending set pieces. Yeah, which continued, of course. But I think...

they've been much I think they've set up in open play defensively quite well I think they've been much much harder to play through they're obviously conceding I think far fewer shots than they were on direct which was obviously the huge kind of unsustainable problem of Ten Hag's tenure and

And yeah, I've not seen a lot of sort of signs of sort of, you know, the kind of sort of the sort of systemic creativity of the 3-4-3 system going forward. Obviously, they scored two good goals yesterday, but neither sort of really kind of created by. But I think he's, you know, you sort of, you kind of solve one thing at a time, don't you, as a new manager? And I think...

I think he's doing fine so far. The results haven't been kind of overwhelmingly good. They've sort of been a bit mixed, but overall, I think... And obviously, you know, football is such an outcome-based sport and this result just feels huge. Well, exactly. OK, if City had swept United aside 5-0, which before the kick-off was a thing that was going around people's heads, this could be the game, the City comeback, actually.

Would you be saying such nice things about Amarin if, you know, presumably Garnaccio wore a garish Christmas jumper, he didn't like it, and he's dropped?

Rashford had tinsel in his hair or something, whatever it was, that would now seem really, really stupid. It wouldn't seem logical and good management and smiley and lovely. But you don't like the idea that he's... The standards, I guess, is the point. We don't know exactly what the reasons are, but you don't like his point about the standards. And he made points, as Paul Hurst said about...

if they hadn't won, wouldn't we be saying, well, his priorities, what are his priorities? Dress sense or getting it right on the pitch. We'd have a completely different slant on it. I wonder whether the dress sense is a little bit of misdirection. Who knows? But we will find out. What were they? What?

Yeah, they were.

as well as spending time at Blackburn, Fulham, Portsmouth and Newcastle. Find out after the break.

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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Tom Allnut, James Gearbrand and Alison Rudd with me. And Tom...

you might have arrived late but you're bringing in all the goods now you got the answer to the quiz question which was Andy Cole Andy Cole Andy Cole Cole of course James was nodding along as if it was an easy answer but I didn't actually hear it come out of his mouth James a very very well versed man in the football world but you were admitting you really struggle with these quiz questions I'm very bad at them I have to be honest I never get them well by the end of the season let's I want you

diving in I mean I'm really enjoying it you all pretend you hate it like every Thursday Martin Samuel says he hates it and then in the break he's the one who gives the answer straight away all the time Greg is the classic isn't he he always moans about oh bloody

Anyway, hope you're doing well, mate. Anyway, change those nappies. We look forward to having you back very soon. We've got loads and loads to talk about. As I say, it was a mad Sunday of loads and loads of stories happening and I should know because I was editing on the Times desk thinking, when can I go home, please? For goodness sake, there's too much happening. I wanted to quickly mention Crystal Palace's excellent win against Brighton. Hamza reporting.

on the Times website about the excellent performance of Ismail Assar. A rare afternoon for Brighton. We normally praise them so much, so I wanted to get that in there. Brighton, you were crap. What's going on? See, now she's making sure we've got a nice bit of balance. But another team that we are starting to praise on an almost consistent, regular basis. Chelsea, Alison Rudd. You battled your way with this cold all the way. And toothache, is it? Yeah, toothache all the way to Stamford Bridge to watch another Chelsea win.

And you are starting to be persuaded, are you, that they are indeed title contenders? Well, they're currently two points off the top, so you can't really write them off. I wonder if, I mean, a week ago I was saying the reasons they couldn't win the title were immaturity and defensively they're not as strong as their rivals, but...

And those things are true. But after watching this game, which was a fantastic game, and in stark contrast to the Manchester derby, it was pulsating. It was just... Which is great to know because in this rare age, it wasn't on telly. Oh, yes.

Yeah, I was watching Tottenham and I had no idea. I was relying purely on you to tell me how exciting it was. Probably a hard game to do highlights for them because it was just constant action. Really good. And when Chelsea go for it, they really go for it. The sweeping moves and lovely to watch, very entertaining. But as the goal they conceded illustrated, they can look a bit sloppy sometimes.

And their goalkeeper can be brilliant on second and then make strange decisions the next. And you kind of think those things are important. And yet I'm starting to wonder if the things we thought might undermine Chelsea's ability to win the title might be the very thing that gets them there because they are fearless players.

utterly fearless. And so you mean that's the age, the inexperienced tag that you might get given? They're having a lot of fun. I would say they're having more fun than anyone I can see in the Premier League at the moment. They are palpably enjoying themselves. They're like, it's like watching...

an elite level of kids playground football where everyone's like we've got off maths and we're getting an extra hour of footy let's have fun that's the vibe of it god those were the days and uh so you there's a lot of relationships developing uh they understand each other's movement uh so that you get that nice sort of psychic stuff going on long ball you think where's that going oh i can see the run now that's lovely um

And what they lack in the back line, well, in the centre-back department, they've got, in midfield, they've got Caicedo, who is improving minute by minute. He was in with a, he could easily have been called man of the match. Maybe he was man of the match, given that Cucurella was sent off. Otherwise, it would have been Cucurella. Fernandes, I think, has been weak, but suddenly...

suddenly looking mature and clever and he's got a good relationship with Caicedo. They've got pace. If they, you know, like someone like Nicholas Jackson makes a bit of a blooper with a finish, you think, whoa, you know, you're a couple of yards out, you put it over the bar. Then he has to come up with a composed finish running at goal and he does it. It's like whatever Maresca's saying to them, it's blame free. It's, it's,

So they clearly have a culture where try it. Why not try it? If you make a mistake, it doesn't matter. Keep going. And that, I think, offers a refreshing freedom, which you don't often get when a team is in a title race. They start to be a lot more pragmatic. Which is why Maresca's refusing to say they're in a title race. No, we're not, lads. Keep enjoying yourselves. Exactly, exactly. But you inevitably win your title race. Often the people who win the title win it quite boringly. I mean, I found Manchester City's

winning of the title would be okay if the football was varied and enjoyable but it's the same diet used to get from them so it just became a bit dull this is thrilling stuff and if they can maintain that lack of nerves when it starts getting and they've got a tough run in by the way Chelsea but if they can maintain that nerve free element to it then I honestly do think they have a chance because

Why wouldn't you if you can play as thrillingly as they did against Brentford, who, by the way, have this appalling away record, but played really well. And Chelsea did well to keep them at bay.

They also have loads of options. And I think that is a massive thing at the moment. You look all the way around the league and it's a boring thing to say, but there are loads of teams who are really struggling with injuries and they're really struggling with energy and keeping kind of the relentless kind of pressing up. Chelsea, they have loads of players and it helps, you know, they have loads of really good young players. Well, we thought it was going to be a disadvantage at the start of the season, didn't we? Like, how do you keep everyone happy? How do you juggle so many players? They've got too many. They've been stupid. They're stockpiled. It's daft. But it's ended up being...

Yeah, I guess with the Conference League, you can play a team in the Conference League like a second team and sort of keep people happy to a certain extent. Whereas maybe if you're a Champions League side, you can't. You have to play the kind of the gala 11 every match, right? So Chelsea kind of got this good system going, which is working for now. I don't know if it can work long term where they basically play 1-11 here and 1-11 there. Everyone stays fresh. Everyone stays fairly injury free, right?

And it makes a massive difference. You know, I mean, look at Spurs, look at Arsenal, look at Villa, you know, all these teams who are, you know, down to the bare bones at the moment. And Chelsea are just sort of playing the same team every week. The only thing is, I mean, they've got... Badia Shil, I think, has been injured. Fafan is now injured. Kukere is suspended. So it's possible, you know, we're going to see in the next few weeks some challenges, I think, from Resco when he has to play some of those kind of second-team players. But, I mean, I agree on that. And also...

I just think Caicedo has been absolutely brilliant this season. Yeah, I mean, talk about turnaround stories. I mean, I remember you and I talking last year. I think you wrote a piece about how he struggled in the team. We were talking about Conor Gallagher leaving in the summer. Again, it's another angle of this Chelsea story where it does seem to be coming around after a bit of time. Yeah, I mean, he just looks like he's a real leader in that team. Now, I felt last season...

He just kind of looked like someone who was sort of finding his feet almost intimidated by the club and the players he was playing with. Whereas I think he feels this is his team now. The way he plays, he plays with this real authority in that midfield. I think he's been huge in terms of Chelsea's kind of transformation.

I mean, I've been sort of, to be honest, I've been surprised by Chelsea this season. I honestly didn't think they would be this good. I sort of thought when they appointed Maresca in the summer, I just thought he had all the hallmarks of one of those sort of Chelsea managers who's gone by Christmas. Really? I don't know, just because I suppose just because of like how the sort of

just he's someone who doesn't have a huge amount of authority gleaned from past performances no no absolutely yeah yeah not a huge CV of managerial and obviously he was a good player but sort of without having been a player of the level where you just really have you know you have this automatic gravitas and you really command respect and

I think the job he's done has been superb. And the other dimension, which I think is fascinating, is we're talking about City, this great crumbling dynasty. Four of Chelsea's starting XI yesterday were players, if I'm not mistaken, who came through City's academy. Really? Wow, yeah, four. Farmer, Lavia, Tosin, Sancho. Wow, yeah. And obviously Maresca, who used to manage that City development squad. It's just amazing to think that this great dynasty...

seems to be crumbling before our eyes. And, you know, the talent that they were cultivating in-house that should be, or, you know, in another world could be, you know, providing some relief and regeneration to that team has now, that intellectual property has sort of been, you know,

and sort of implanted in another club. This could really mess with your head, actually, because Chelsea are the club that let go so many great talents. De Bruyne or Mo Salah or anything. This feels like one of those moments where you've stumbled on an idea that I'm now going to make you write

James I think this is your Thursday column sorted find it on the Times website in a couple of days time just a couple of stats that talk to some of your points there from the start of May Chelsea have scored more goals 51 won more games 15 and earned more points 49 in the Premier League than any other side

Chelsea have earned 15 more points this season, 34, than they did in the same correspondence 16 fixtures last season. The biggest such difference of any Premier League side. So just, Alison, you kind of said, well, they're two points behind. They have to be title contenders. They might even be top before Liverpool play again in the Premier League because of the time differences in the matches on Sunday. Guys, James, Tom?

title contenders Tom you've wavered on this a few times already this season we're in December now I waver on everything yeah you're the waverer we've all got different roles there's no consistency in our predictions but we love you for it that's the best thing I think Chelsea

probably have a chance if it's a low scoring title winning season if you know what I mean if Liverpool low points tally you mean yeah if Liverpool sort of fade away and have a really difficult second half of the season if Arsenal continue to be kind of you know stop start I think Chelsea could win the title if it's a sort of a I don't know what we say like an 89 point

You know, I don't see this Chelsea team being consistent enough all the way through, particularly kind of March, April kind of time to kind of rack up 95 or something. So if it proves to be a sort of transition season, post-City, post-Guardiola, whatever you want to say, you know, pre-slot,

And there is a room for a kind of almost a surprise champion. A renegade. Fine, a renegade, a Mavericks champion, then fine. I don't see it in a really high quality title race, them still coming out on top. That was top notch wavering. That was really good. Really good. James?

I think yes, title contenders, but I think most title contenders or most title winners have a better goalkeeper than Rob Sanchez. That's a position that I think would maybe worry me, but I think they have to be title contenders. Excellent insight from Mr. Waver and Mr. Caveat there. Absolutely top-notch stuff, journalism at the highest level from the Times. Another manager who has been under pressure of late, Andrew Postacoglu, getting a big win. Tottenham, we've said it about you all season, you can't go and do the easy things. Turns out it is easy to beat Southampton.

at home they blew them away very very comfortably uh pete rutzler was there for us um again another example of what was a mad sunday very busy sunday i'd started my day with calls from charlotte dunker gary o'neill's gone and i ended it with a call from pete rutzler at about half 10 russell martin's gone the sackings are underway it's the festive period there's loads of games coming it doesn't make any sense but the chairman do it anyway um

Southampton, just a quick stat on them, have picked up just five points from their first 16 Premier League matches this season. Sheffield United in 2021, the only team to have picked up the fewer points at this stage in the Premier League campaign. They just had two. So, I mean, the writing was on the wall for Russell Martin. Tom, your reaction to both the sacking? Because as I say, Tottenham, you've done very well. You got a win at Southampton. Nice one. Let's talk about these two sackings and this change. And as I say, at this time of season as well, because this is what fascinates me,

it seems like an odd time to change manager or is it the perfect time to change manager? Particularly given now you have the international breaks like I always think that kind of triple international break from September, October, November almost gives all these sort of bottom half Premier League teams sort of three chances it's like you know you've got these three easy little windows where you can make a decision and maybe the first one's a bit early the second one you're kind of there and the third one this is your last chance because then you

you've got a really busy December, a really busy January, and it's not a great time to be changing manager. So it doesn't suggest any sense of organisation at all, really. And I think with both of them, they can't really argue with it, I don't think. I don't think O'Neill can argue with being... So I don't think Russell Martin can either. And in a way, I'm surprised. I think as journalists, we often kind of say, well, give more time, because that tends to be the sensible thing. But I actually think...

They probably waited two or three weeks too long. I felt with Russell Martin that you could have made the case with, oh, you know, we've got a style of play. If there had been some of the Alison Rudd trademarks, you have to adapt a little bit. And they'd been picking up the odd point. But it was so the same, you know, you saw even on this telly watching it yesterday, the fans streaming out of the stadium. That's the moment when there's no going back from that, is there?

And, you know, as soon as O'Neill said what he said about the players afterwards, you know, in my head, I thought it's gone. Because when you start sort of detaching yourself from the team and you could tell that he didn't want to sort of say explicitly, but he did. You know, he basically said, look, you've given me these players. They're not good enough. I'll keep trying to get the maximum out I can. But ultimately, I don't think they're good enough. And if you have a manager who doesn't believe in the players, then...

then it's finished, isn't it? James, what do you make of these two sackings? Gary O'Neill is someone that on previous podcasts we've praised before. Gregor saw his Wolves side get a good win at Fulham and we were saying, this guy's got something about him. He needs the time. As Tom said, that whole line, just need more time. He's not getting it now at Wolves. What have you made of these two decisions? Well, I think ultimately they're both kind of fair and somewhat inevitable decisions. But also I think

I still, I mean, I'm one of those who on previous podcasts has praised Gary O'Neill. I still think Gary O'Neill is a good coach. This is Gary O'Neill's third Premier League season. And I think the first two, he did a really good job. And this one has obviously been not so good.

I mean that's you know do we throw him on the scrap heap forever I don't know but equally that's another column idea that's a new column for next week sorted already when you're on five points I think Wolves are on nine points as Tom said you can't you can't really argue and clubs will ultimately you know in very rare cases clubs will pull that lever at some stage in the season and

But obviously the wider context that's kind of interesting and also, you know, you might say concerning is that we're now left with two English managers in the Premier League, Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche, who, you know, Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche were the two sort of

best English managers, you know, eight years ago. And they are now currently the only two English managers in the Premier League. And if you look around at the other European leagues where you have like, you know, 16 Italian managers in Serie A and, you know, 12 German managers in the Bundesliga or something like that, you know, the figures are very, very stark. There are, you know, there are very, very few English managers. And I suppose, you know,

It's hard to sort of, you know, say something absolutely definitive about why that is. Is it the chances that they get? The type of clubs that they get given? You know, we're even talking about Gareth Southgate not having work and being linked with these jobs. You're an England manager. It is partly that. I think that the jobs they get tend to be at the sort of, you know, lower level Premier League clubs, which are hard jobs, but they're not impossible jobs, you know. They're...

that you people can succeed in those jobs I think it's it's different things I think and I think with Russell Martin I think I had I think I get the sense of someone who maybe the Premier League came a bit too early for him yeah I think Russell Martin is is a kind of interesting idealist who maybe needs to refine some of those ideals I think the the kind of

Having a really defined principles of play is great, but it's kind of the easy part of being a manager. Being able to instill those principles of play is the kind of medium difficult part of being a manager. Being able to instill those principles of play in a way that allows you to win and also allows players to recognize when to not do it or when to sort of slightly moderate it.

That's the kind of hardest part and I think that's where he hasn't quite got to yet. And maybe if he'd had another season in the Championship, I think Jurgen Klopp may have said something to the effect of, you know, I think Russell Martin would be better off with another season in the Championship. Well, Pep was full of praise with him as well in Southampton earlier in the season. I think maybe that would have been more helpful to him in the long run. But, you know, he's...

He's had a chance to do this job and he hasn't done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely. I'm sure they would both. Russell Martin was not helped. I mean, you can see the Southampton ball looking across at Ipswich and seeing Kieran McKenna, who has a squad of, I would say, very comparable calibre, actually. And yet, apart from the opening fixtures, they've been in every game they've played. Yes. And they've adapted in every game they've played. And they've looked great.

mostly comfortable at Premier League level. There have been very few Ipswich games where you've thought, you know, you wouldn't say things like, oh, they need another season in the championship. You'd say they're progressing. They're warming up. They're getting better. They're adapting. All these words that don't apply to Russell Martin. And it's like there's an arrogance to... I think there's an arrogance to thinking your principles as the manager is what counts. Your...

job is to look after the players and the club and make the owners and the fans happy and to get points on the board. It's not to say, I have a way of playing and I think it's the way. When all the evidence is that it's not working. Yeah. Do we think, I guess to my point about this being an odd time of year, the counter to that would be, well, if the mood has gone so badly at both these clubs, that it could be the case that...

you know Jimmy Caretaker comes in for two games and gets some performances because he just comes in and says some nice things to some players who had a really bad vibe for ages that's

Tom, which of these clubs do we think we could see in this incessant run of games at this time of year? Oh gosh, look at that. It's like a breath of fresh air and all those kind of cliches that we'll start hearing. Well, maybe at Wolves where every time they lose they start punching people. Yes, that's got to stop. That would be point number one, wouldn't it? That would be a start. Again, you look at Ait Nuri and Kunya and the fans and there's just...

everything there is you know it's cliche but it's toxic you know the whole stadium was you know just looked like it was unravelling yesterday you know and to be fair to O'Neill and I do you know pick you up on James's point what did Wolves do in the summer to help him really they sold Neto sold Kilman massively part of their defence in recent years

and brought in Strand Larsson who's been useful you know but I mean you don't get away with that in the Premier League you really don't you don't get to hire a sort of young up and coming manager like O'Neill who is a very good training ground coach but you know doesn't have a huge aura as a manager huge history and pedigree

and then just not back him at all in the transfer market and hope you just get to stay in the Premier League for another year because every single team is bringing in new players or got new managers or is going in a direction. Wolves just kind of were hoping for the best, I think. And I do have some sympathy with O'Neill. And there was some talk, I think, in the summer that he wasn't happy with the kind of the transfer business they did. He wasn't necessarily hugely enthusiastic about kind of the season starting with the squad that he had.

maybe it would have been the best thing would have been for everyone to kind of part ways in the summer and it is kind of reminiscent as well of Lopetegui who did this basically said I've done a good job here but ultimately I don't think you're going to back me enough to move the team on and if I stay I think then you know the team is going to get relegated he left you know and maybe O'Neill if he'd actually had been a bit smarter you know maybe a little bit he might have said

done a good job I'm out yeah well we'll see what the future holds for Southampton and Wolves Charlotte Dunker reporting on the Times website that Wolves are interested in Vitor Pereira so we'll see whether he can be the man to turn things around one team and one manager who are definitely not fighting and the vibes are high on Nuno Espirito Santo and Nottingham Forest up to fourth Nottingham Forest in fourth at

Absolutely remarkable. I would definitely say to all Forest fans, under-reported on this podcast this season, I would say, quietly going about their business. Tom Allnutt, you were there at their game against Aston Villa, which were memorable for the Emi Martinez save that we're going to talk about in a minute. But tell us about Forest, because this win kind of embodies their season, really, doesn't it, in terms of what they've been able to do? Yeah, I mean...

First half wasn't great. It was two teams, I think, who their general strategy is to kind of almost allow the other team to have the ball, to kind of counter-attack, wait for the other side to press and create gaps, and no one was pressing and no one was creating gaps. It was just kind of like, you have the ball and let's see. But Forrest created the better chances, and in the second half...

It was one of those games where, as a kind of a writer, you kind of felt there were all these sort of key points that went against them. There was the Martinez save, which was, you know, ludicrous. There was Forrest then, Villa then went out the other end and scored, basically straight away. So immediately you think, ah, you know, we've had a crazy save. They've now scored. This is just how this game's going to go.

Forrest then had an equaliser ruled out VAR. Chris Wood scored and Nalanga was just offside. Really, really long, painful VAR review. That was in about the 83rd minute. Again, very easy at that point to say, this is just not our day. Is that what you wrote? I had this whole brilliant report about how Forrest was very unlucky.

The secrets of the trade. Those reports that never see the light of day. But, you know, they just kept coming and going, you know. And in the 87th minute, they score Milenkovic, you know, bundles a header in and another one, you know, in the 93rd. And you think, just fair play, like real resilience, real kind of grit and belief in that team. And Nuno, you know, he's always been a very kind of good coach, organising teams and making them hard to beat. And he did say, you know, he said...

the one thing I want this team to be is to make them hard to beat. And there aren't that many managers now who say that. They always want to sort of say, I want to dominate the ball. I want to...

Have loads of possession credit. Have their bloody philosophies, eh, Alison? But Nuno is kind of almost humble enough, I think. And that's what I think almost about this Forest team is they have this kind of humility about them, which I think a lot of teams don't have now. They want to be the kind of the stars of the show. Forest are happy not to be the stars of a match. They're happy to see through periods of pressure. They're happy to kind of defend properly and deal with the nuts and bolts of a football match.

and they've also got some really good difference makers I mean Milenkovic was signed for 12 million in the summer from Fiorentina I mean is there a better signing in the Premier League than that I mean these days if you get a good centre half who can even play matches on a regular basis for 12 million are doing well you get one who is essentially probably one of the best performing centre halves of the first half of the season is an absolute steal you know and Alanga came on off the bench changed the game we know about Chris Wood and I think

it's good coaching you know they have a lot of and I always say this about managers you know the kind of number one thing is can you turn a 5 or 6 out of 10 player into a 7 or 8 out of 10 player and Forest have that across the starting line up you look through there's 5 or 6 players there who are not world beaters they're not going to play for Chelsea or Manchester City but at the moment they're playing out their skin you know and long may it continue does it feel sustainable both from the sense of we're talking about at the Etihad the nerves in the fans and we talk about Wolves everyone scrapping and fighting each other what

Is the vibe really high in the city ground and does it feel sustainable? Because I'm interested in that idea that you say, Forrest are hard to beat. That's what Nuno's done. But I'm then already thinking about a scenario this time next season where I'm saying, Nuno's taken them as far as he can go. They've been hard to beat. They need to bring more to their game. Sorry, sorry, Forrest fans, to bring a dampener to things when you're in fourth. But does it feel sustainable for this season at least?

I don't think they're going to finish fourth in the table. No, but I mean this, and as I say, the vibes in the stadium as well. Yeah, I mean, the city ground was buzzing, you know, at the end. And, you know, they've been through some difficult times, you know, Forest fans. And, you know, Nuno said afterwards, let's just enjoy it. You know, let's enjoy it together. You know, can you finish in the Champions League? Can you challenge for Europe? And he just sort of said, let's just enjoy it at the moment, you know. And I do agree with that. Like,

Does it matter if Forrest are kind of going to challenge for the Champions League? Because they're probably not. They're probably not going to win the FA Cup, you know? So just enjoy these moments where you have a team that is playing really well, playing really well together. Over the long term, I don't know. But I mean, you look at clubs like, you know, Brentford, Fulham, Bournemouth, you know, it is possible to create a team, I think, you know, in the Premier League where you have a good manager, good players coming through. You recycle by selling at the right time, buying, you know, good young players like Milenkovic, finding bargains, you know,

It is possible to keep that model going. Yeah, exactly. Just enjoy it. Don't let annoying podcast hosts bring you down, Forrest fans. Just enjoy it. Let's finish talking about that wonder save. It's the moment that lights up all WhatsApp groups and things. All my friends go, wow, it's the greatest save ever. I'll be honest, I saw it first time and thought it had gone straight at him. I didn't know what people were realising. I needed the replay to realise, wow, what a save. Did you sense it in the ground? Is it one of those where, or did you guys, you know, you're too far away in the press box?

What was interesting was that the whole stadium thought it was a goal. And almost before, it wasn't just one of those things where everyone thought it crossed the line. Milenkovic, was it Milenkovic? No, it was Dominguez, wasn't it? Who headed it from sort of two, three yards. And Martínez wasn't really in the right position. So the whole stadium basically cheered, anticipating the fact that it had gone in.

You're right. In live, me watching it live, I had no idea it was as good a save as it was because it was such a sort of maze of players in the way. Yeah, a big melee, yeah. But then you saw it on the replay and what was interesting, I think, was that the ball came across and Martínez has to adjust not only his body but his eyeline because he's seen a flick, I think. Someone's got a flick near post. And I don't think his eyes have actually caught up. I think his hands are basically doing work that his brain hasn't made up. And he's basically sort of flashed out his left hand

done a full sort of 180 degree turn so that at some point his face is basically facing behind the goal looking at fans and he's got his fingertips to it and literally kind of clawed it with his fingernails back behind his left hip I mean it was Have you ever seen a better save? Live? No Can you think of other saves that you've seen either on TV as a fan or growing up that you were like wow that's a better save?

Because that's the thing, it is up there. And it's one of those when the more you watch it, because obviously I saw it on the replays when friends are talking about it, go on social media, watch the clip yesterday, editing, watching it, and you're thinking, yeah, this is, as you say, it's a great description, the idea that his arm does something before his brain and head even knows what he's doing. The ultimate goalkeeping. Anyone got a better... It's an unusual save. But that's what's beautiful about it, I think, how weird it is. It's quite clear what the best save is. Oh, here we go.

And when did Yari Litmanen have a turning goal? Well... When did this happen? Well, me and Yari were in this charity friendly and he took a turning goal and it was so beautiful. Sorry, Alison. No, Alison's much more grown up than that. It's obviously Alison in 2018 against Napoli.

It's a magnificent save because it's not a save born of, oh, I'm in the wrong position. I have to readjust and then do crazy things with my limbs. It's just Alison being a fantastic shot stopper and being brave and the stadium...

I was in the stadium, I was at Anfield, everyone's singing Alice and Alice and it feels nice being called Alice. There we go, there's the real reason. And then a couple of days later, I sit down and do my Alice and meets Alice interview, which is the favourite interview ever.

Yeah, there we go. James, any nominations for you for best save ever? I honestly can't think of any, which is terrible, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Well, I see a jogging memory. Tony Cascarino, our colleague, nominated a few. Obviously, the Gordon Bantz one v Brazil. Thibaut Courtois against Brazil in 2018 World Cup. David Seaman against Sheffield United. That was another one where the arm kind of goes out almost on reflex. I would nominate as well as I always do when this category comes up. Peter Schmeichel for Manchester United against Rapid Vienna.

which was a game that was, you know, that time when I was falling in love with football and the Wednesday night games were on. It's a header down into the ground and the ball bounces up and he manages to dive down and then flick it up and over the bar. Like Banks. Yeah, exactly. It was Banks. That sort of bounce and then flick away is always, I think, equally bad. I mean, I think Martinez in the World Cup final. Yes. For a moment where, I mean, it's hard with goalkeeping saves because I think they don't, the reason they don't endure almost and, you know, it is hard to remember them because they sort of just fizzle into the air because unlike goals, they don't get marked down on a,

on a score sheet. Yeah, true. But I do think that the Martinez saves in the World Cup final, I mean, that is it. That is the tournament right there, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I can't think of another save that has defined... As significant. Yeah. Yeah, Emi Martinez, he just loves a big moment and a big save. That's all we've got time for on this show. Tom Allnott, James Gearbrand and Alison Rudd, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.

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