Chelsea shine; Tottenham capitulate; INEOS embarrass
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Now then, never mind a Champions League spot, our Chelsea title contenders.

Enzo Maresca's side won a seven-goal thriller at Tottenham to go second, four points behind leaders Liverpool, who of course have that game in hand. On today's show, we'll discuss Chelsea's credentials for the top spot and ponder what another Tottenham capitulation might mean for Ange Postakoglu. We'll also talk about more chaos at Manchester United as Dan Ashworth departs after just five months and chat Arsenal, Fulham, Man City, Crystal Palace and hear about an interview with Lee Carsley.

I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football writer and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Lunat and for the first time this season our new signing, a football reporter who will be covering clubs in London and the South with a particular focus on Chelsea, ladies and gentlemen, Pete Rutzler! Hello!

Hello. Hello. How's it going? Yeah, really good. That was really nice. Yeah. What did you think I was going to say? I don't know. I didn't expect to be that warm. Yeah, that's what we like. We're a warm, welcoming family, aren't we, Alison, on the Game Podcast? You feel like some sort of obscure match that you played in like 10 years ago. Yeah. Something like that. Some offbeat, I don't know, tweet that

We can do that in the future, but I thought I'd start nicely. So how excited are you to be on the game podcast, Pete? You know, I'm slightly, you know, I've got Hamza here, he's got all the stats and I've got Alison on the end, so you know. Alison on the end with what? Your prestige. Exactly, you know. Senior sports writer, remember? The high press of Alison Rudd there. Yes, very good, very good. I used to do the high press before it was a thing. Did you? Yeah.

It's on your own? Yeah. That's terrible if you just run it on your own. You're out of position. That's like the Adam Milano press. When I started playing football, it was all I could do. So you just ran at people? That's right. So you were like the kind of player that you saw in the 90s who would run after the ball and then the fans would go, yeah, go on, yeah, brilliant. Meanwhile, the manager on the sidelines is like, oh my God, there's a massive space in the middle of the pitch. What are you doing?

But it's alright if the defenders just clear it. There you go, Pete. That's a high bar that you've got to get to. There's been many, many big claims on this podcast, but Alison Rudd claiming that she invented the high press has got to be right up there. Anyway, there's loads and loads to discuss, and Pete, it's the perfect show for you to make your debut because you were at the big game of the weekend, Chelsea v Spurs. I always like to ask reporters when they're in the ground to give listeners a sense of what it was like. Was this as thrilling, as raucous, as chaotic as it seemed watching it on the telly?

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean this was played and fast forward this was an absolute whirlwind of a game. A game where you had massive open spaces where sometimes if you just take a step back and you just look at it and go this is like park football or you think it is anyway because of the gaps that were on offer but that's just the way Tottenham are playing at the moment and

Chelsea so front foot so attacking and it made for a thrilling game but there was so much more to it there was the display from the Tottenham end that resulted in all the paper being chucked down you had a real build up before the game particularly from a Spurs side of things trying to amp things up trying to get the team ready because there had been so much pessimism coming into the fixture knowing how well Chelsea were playing and

obviously the lack of a follow up to the 4-0 win against Man City that suddenly just went up two, three octaves with the way the game started you know, Kukerea slipping and Spurs running into a 2-0 lead but then gradually the mood changed and then in the second half it was a seat emptying moment and

a bit more forlorn for Andrew Postakoglu. Can I ask, even in that early stages, obviously I was editing yesterday in the office and as I've mentioned before, we've got Glenn who's a big part of the subbing operation. He's the one who gives the Spurs-ometer. He's the good indicator for me as to where Tottenham fans are. Even at 2-0 he was like, we need another one here. We need at least three more probably before I can get carried away. You've been covering Chelsea a lot, as I mentioned at the top.

Did you get the sense that there was no panic, even though Kukriya was falling over and changing his boots, which is one of my favourite moments of the season so far? Did you even think, OK, well, there was no sense that there was panic amongst Chelsea, we're still well in this game? Yeah, I think, do you know what, that's probably one of the most interesting takeaways, I think, from a Chelsea perspective. Because I think over the last couple of seasons, the way Chelsea have played, the chaotic nature of a lot of their games...

You would assume in those circumstances, players making errors, a few nervy passes from Robert Sanchez. Tactically, it felt like Spurs were actually doing pretty well. They were pressing Chelsea in a way that was forcing him out down the right-hand side where Caicedo was inverting and it was forcing the play onto Badia. She lay his right foot and he wasn't comfortable. So he'd go back to Sanchez. Sanchez would make an error and then you get the awes from the away end because that has been a consistent theme for

And normally you think, okay, this is the point where Chelsea might implode. But actually, and I think the away end would probably have felt the same way, there wasn't that panic. There was a sense that actually Chelsea will come back into this game. They will regain their composure. There won't be that sort of youthful naivety that has perhaps characterised the last couple of years since the Clear Lake Bowley takeover.

And that's what came to pass. It wasn't predictable because Tottenham are incredibly unpredictable so you never know what you might get. But with Chelsea, it did feel like they would come back into this game. They would continue to create good chances and so it proved. And I think they did it in a way that was probably more impressive than...

I think anyone would have expected at this stage. Everything feels like it's happening so quickly and is improving so quickly. Yeah, interesting. I've got a lot of stats that I want to read out related to this game. But Hamza, what did you make of this watching from home? Pete's obviously given a sense of what it was like in the ground, but he's picked out some points about tactically how the game started. I agree with him. I thought Tottenham actually started really well. Dominic Solanke looking great leading the line. But what did you make of this game, particularly maybe the opening exchanges? Yeah.

There's two ways to see this. There's the spectacle, which was fantastic and really enjoyable. And then there's the cold analysis, which you go, this was a silly game. I knew that's where you were going. I could see you starting off. I was like, this is going to end with Hamza telling people off. The way that both team plays and allowed it to be an open match and encourage transitions, dangerously so. I mean, Spurs, they went 2-0 up. They could have been 3-0 up, maybe 4-0.

Likewise, when it got to 2-1, 2-2, either team could have scored again and the game could have swung either way. It was silly. In my view, I think it was quite silly and quite... It was actually a bit ridiculous, the way that both teams set up and didn't choose to manage the match. Now, there is a question here of whether they can manage matches and I don't think Tottenham are showing that they can, but that's something they need to work on. Chelsea... And I take Peter's point about...

not being as naive as they were but they're still they are maturing but they're not yet mature so there are certain decisions that they make for example to keep attacking to keep playing an open way often to the annoyance of Maresca you will often see him on the sidelines just saying guys calm down please slow it down and

They can't help themselves. Because pretty much all kids, I mean, I think the oldest guy on the team might be tossing and he's 27. There's three guys in the squad that are 27 and they've all just turned 27 in the past 50 days or so. So you can imagine away trips with them, right? It's just like a school away trip. As in, everyone's got sweets under their pillows and whatever. But you say away trips. Chelsea have won eight of their last ten away games in the Premier League, drawn one and lost one. I mean, that is remarkably good. I mean, I take your point because I was watching it and thinking...

As an editor, you're trying to work out, it's the late game, where's it going to go? What's the angles going to be? And I'm thinking, Christ's sake, I'm literally going to have to wait until the final whistle's blown here. I can't make any guesses. Pete, you were at the game. We were texting the whole way through going, what should I write? What should the piece be? And I'm like, I have no idea. Not a bloody clue. We might have to wait till an hour afterwards to work it out. But they're still getting the results. Alison, you've watched Chelsea this season as well. Do you think they've got that in them, Hamza says, or do you think the chaos and the fun...

is part of what they are and that's what they've embraced and that's why they're getting eight out of ten wins away. Well, they're getting eight out of ten wins away. I think Colwell gave it away in his post-match interview. He said...

At half-time, the manager told them to exploit the space being left. And that's what happens when you're away from home. The home team feel under pressure to attack, to leave spaces. So don't be scared of the spaces. Go for it. You're turning home advantage on its head and seeing it as an opportunity, which you can do, I think, with a young team that aren't inhibited. That, I think, the lack of inhibition amongst the Chelsea players, which obviously comes with youth, as you say, Hamza,

but also comes with the manager and the type of club it is because it's a club where you don't get a long time to establish yourself if you're in you're out quickly if you're not successful so they're just they're just they're just going for it like they are at a party and if you're an away team that isn't scared of the environment or the pressure and see it as a chance to counter

That is why they're winning away from home because they're being brave. I think that is allied to their youth. There's something weird about Chelsea. Even under the previous ownership of Abramovich, they would always be the most united of playing staff and team players. It's always been amazing. It's always looked like it's been run quite...

in a way, you know, with a, you know, a manager's come and go quickly. Ruthlessly. Very ruthless. And you sort of think, oh, I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd want, you know, I don't know if I'd want my son to try and sign for Chelsea. Actually, they did try and sign my son, but I said no. But you think, is it a good atmosphere? Is this where I want? Is this nurturing? You know, it's clearly not. It's a success-driven model. But the

the team, the players, have always seen the most, have the most camaraderie of almost any team I've seen. Yeah, I know. And I've talked a lot about it on the podcast this season, smiling when they celebrate. They've got a lot of that in their locker. They really love a celebration after a goal and they're scoring a lot of them. Pete, just coming back to that point about Enzo Moresca and we're going to fold in a bit, a talk about broadly about whether they're in the title race or not.

tell us a bit like what he's about what he's like in press conferences both pre-match post-match has he got he seems like he's got a little bit of the Arna Slott's about him in the way that Slott has managed the media really well the odd joke here and there

certain things, keeping the conversation going, managing those kind of moments well. Because obviously after this game, he was asked, Enzo, you must be in the title then. Yeah, exactly. And he refuses to say it, but he will do it in a way that will still give you something. I've been pretty impressed with him, I think overall. I think like many people, I was very sceptical when he was appointed. I think most people were because his track record was winning the league with Leicester City.

14 games with Palmer and being an assistant of Pep Guardiola. But he's displaying, like you mentioned Arnaz Slot and I think Arnaz Slot has done an exceptional job and I think it's such an important part of the role, how you use the media when you say the right things. You don't add pressure or take pressure away from

at the wrong moments and we've seen that a couple of times with his players obviously the way he's spoken about Rhys James yep wanting more leadership from him and then recently about Noddy Madaweke as well where after Southampton the 5-1 win in the week he was asked about why he brought him back into the team and he said look you know he hadn't been training well enough and

I want to see more from him, he's great but I know there's far more to come and straight away that's like oh that's quite interesting and then before this game with Tottenham he sort of clarified it's like look this is because I want the best for these players and what is interesting is how the players are then responding to him and the way he's saying that Maduike said at the time he's honest, he's truthful, he hadn't actually heard what Maresca had said about him at this point in the mix zone but the players seem to really sort of respect him and buy into that and

it obviously helps the results are going well. That makes life much easier when you're dealing with the media. But he will take things in different directions. We were talking about the title race and he's been talking about how inexperienced the team is, how it's a young team. And obviously it was put to him that Jose Mourinho, a decade ago, said that his team were little horses that required milk and they weren't thoroughbreds that were winning the title at the time, chasing the title at the time.

And, you know, his response was to bring up the fact that he has golden retrievers and his dog Chiro. Classic manager tactic, bring up dogs and you lose the entire press package. Oh, they've got a dog. Oh my God. We love dogs. Yeah, let's go into that. What does it mean to you? That kind of stuff. But he has offered little bits at the right moments and at the right moments because...

obviously coming into this game this is a huge game it's a rival it's against Tottenham you know I put to him on Friday I said you know obviously these are big games how do you want your young squad how do you want them to embrace these moments because the atmosphere is going to be intense it's going to be feisty it's an important game for Chelsea and I brought up the fact that when he was a player at Juventus you know he scored a

last minute equaliser against Torino at Torino and celebrated at the end of the game by running around with his fingers on his head pretending to be a bull the bull is the nickname of Torino straight away shut it down knowing when to go into those moments and knowing when not to basically say look it's a long time ago you enjoy those moments but we need to be controlled and

been very interesting and of course it helps when results are going well then it becomes easier to manage but yeah he's had a good start and so Maresca won't answer the question then but we can are Chelsea title contenders Alison Rudd

Bear in mind you don't think Liverpool are. And Man City are rubbish and Arsenal can't get any consistency. So someone's got to be title contenders. I think they're in a very good place to finish second to Liverpool. They've got a hell of a run coming up though. The fixtures they've got coming up. I mean, they've got difficult matches against Fulham and Bournemouth, teams that we've praised this season. But they've not got a big, traditional big six side until Manchester City at the end of January.

There's a real opportunity for them if they can, busy period, manage a squad. But they've got a hell of a squad. You're talking about players in the squad that he's maybe enthusing. You've got Jadon Sancho yesterday. But that's it. He can take Madueke out and then Jadon Sancho comes in and suddenly Jadon Sancho is flying again. Or Pedroneta will come in. He had his moment. He gets taken out. Takes Cole Palmer off. He brings on Shao Felix. But Alison, you're not quite convinced that they're for the long haul. It's hard because I...

I don't think they have a great goalkeeper. I don't think they have a great... They haven't worked out what the best central defensive pairing is. And I don't know of a team that's won the title where you haven't sat back and been in awe of the defence and the goalkeeper. So it is slightly counterintuitive that they're doing so well with those issues at the back. But having said that, Maresca's sort of going at times two speed in terms of being a Premier League manager. So I would expect...

the back line to... They are improving. They're obviously improving. And I would expect them to keep improving and to find some sort of rhythm to it. I mean, do we think the answer is to have Caicedo playing as a full-back and inverting a lot? That seems to have been...

But it's come through emergency rather than planning. Maybe, I mean, he played that way for Brighton sometimes and did it really well. So it's not a stupid thing to do. But then you're missing Caicedo in the middle. I don't know. It just seems to me there's too many...

Small question marks and you see too many mistakes being made by defenders. Whereas you talk about Liverpool, say, and it's more, ooh, look at Virgil. You don't really say that about anyone at the back for Chelsea. It changes, doesn't it, as the season goes on, right? I mean, it's fine being Chelsea, flying ahead of expectations, playing with so much freedom, as Hamza was talking about, and that comes back to youth. But you get to January, February, and suddenly you're, what, two points off? Or you take...

take the lead in the title race the whole mood changes a little bit the pressure comes on a lot more and I think that's where we'll see where you need that experience in the group and when you do have like you were saying Alison a keeper who is prone to mistakes and

not really settled defensively then that can become much more of a factor That was Gregor Robertson-esque in your kind of measured on the fence sitting there Peter wonderful step in there you're only lacking the Scottish accent I'm in his seat so yeah you're in his seat only lacking the Scottish accent Hamza final thoughts from you on this Chelsea side and in light of what we're saying about where they could go this season what they could achieve um

I'm going to use this opportunity to talk about something slightly different that I find more interesting than Chelsea winning the title race. So you're not going to answer the question? No, I'm not. Not at all? Not even going to say whether they can or can't win the title? The expected goal difference per 90 is 0.54. That tells you all you need to know. What does that tell us?

All you need to know. The listeners can make up their... No, they don't. You need to explain it. What I found really interesting is that... No, seriously, you need to explain that. You can't just put a stat in. I'll get to it. In the match report, James Geerbrand wrote his piece, and quite cleverly... You can tell when someone's writing about Chelsea very lazily, when they go, ''Oh, Cole Palmer's done something.''

when he actually hasn't done that much and this happens quite often all analysts or pundits will say oh Cole Palmer amazing he scored two penalties he didn't actually do much this game but what James picked out was how well Chelsea have played the weird end to end nature of the match and

Enzo Fernandez playing really well and Caicedo as well when he moved in and that's what I think is really interesting the development and just be on what Alison said that Caicedo's made when he moved into midfield in the second half he was outstanding he was breaking everything up

Him and Lavia are a midfield pivot with extraordinary sort of technical skill, ability to play for the press, manoeuvrability, and that sense of when to move the ball and slow it down. Those two have extraordinary maturity. If there is to be any sort of progression from this team further towards an elite team, to being an elite team, it's going to centre on that. As to your sort of question,

they've got some easy fixtures coming up but does that tell anything again to return to what i said last week what you always have is this tension between your priors what all the evidence that you've seen so the past two seasons is roughly the same squad looking at that and going okay like how does that inform my view of them and then seeing what you're seeing now and asking how does that inform your does these these 13 matches whatever um challenge your prize fundamentally uh i'm not so sure

We'll see. We don't know yet. The fixtures are quite generous, but there's still a lot of development that they need to do to manage matches. Easily, this could have been a Spurs win, honestly. Well, the two penalties were slightly... Silly, silly decisions. I think this game... Okay, Ange Postacoglu, after the game, talked about the Christian Romero injury, which was significant. Wasn't a recurrence of his bruised toe.

But then you could also say the same thing, the fact that Correa slipped twice and basically gifted two massive opportunities when the game, it felt like, was settling into Chelsea just beginning to just take control of the match. And you just began to sense, well, maybe this is going to change a little bit. Then you get the slip within, what, five minutes, Tottenham suddenly come out full of confidence, create great chances, created better chances in that first half. But again, it's...

I wouldn't say ordinarily they could have lost absolutely maybe the mid Chelsea last season would have lost that because they may have folded a bit more but

So you thought Chelsea were good value for this? Yeah, I did. I felt like they seemed more controlled in what they want to do. And that has been this, like, Maresca's battle is to control his young players and restrain them, as we were talking about earlier. You know, you do see it on the touchline when they're going to break and transition and suddenly he's clapping because Cole Palmer has turned around and played the ball back to his centre-half. Like, there is that tension, but it just feels that they're moving further along, whereas...

With Tottenham, there's that capacity to... There were still moments, though, because both teams sort of had a man-to-man press and they weren't fully enthusiastic with it. They'd lock on man-to-man, so they'd move their player, but they wouldn't really hound them. So it would just be one pass inside, a bounce pass round, and then it was transition for both teams. You play a game like that, you're playing with fire. If you've got these guys, Madweke, who didn't play and came off the bench, Neto, Palmer, Jackson, you're going to fancy yourselves, but...

I don't really think that that's going to work in this particular... You made the point as well, look at their fixtures coming up full and Bournemouth. But if you look at Johnny's piece in The Weekend...

these teams are good the competitiveness of the league is very high you could drop points quite feasibly against these teams just as Arsenal did this weekend and sorry just to correct myself they got the expected goal difference per 90 is 0.73 so that literally means that they create 0.7 the quality of chances they create is 0.73 goals more than the ones that they face

Ideally, if you're an elite team, you want to be creating one or more. There's only one team that's going at one at the moment. Well, 1.08. Who's that? Who do you think? Now you have to say it. I want you to say it. Yeah, that's good. Final word, Pete. We've not spoken much about Tottenham because I feel like this season we've spoken about this kind of a match as a theme quite a lot. But how was Ange Postakoglu after this game? What was his demeanour like? He's had a difficult couple of weeks with those kind of clashes with fans, if you like, after the Bournemouth game. This...

speaking to Tottenham fans who were in the office with me yesterday, there wasn't a great deal of surprise. I was trying to gauge their kind of opinion. You're always asking fans, aren't you? Because it's a good barometer of the level of mood. Are you Ange out? No, no, no, no. Back him, give him the season. We believe in what he's trying to do. Losing by one goal to Chelsea at home. We've done this the whole life every time I've been a Tottenham fan. But what was his mood like after this game? Yeah, he was much calmer, more...

I was going to say restrained but he tried to take the emotion out of it and it felt more not despairing but just sort of a little bit more fatalistic if that's fair to say I wouldn't say fatalistic about his job but just the circumstances lamenting the fact that yes I've got another injury you had Romero Van der Ven both going off Van der Ven was a tightness he says he was going to get substituted around that time anyway

But then you had Porro limping in the second half. You had Brennan Johnson going off. He was unwell, he said. And he was just, he was trying to play up the fact that every time that something happens, you know, positive happens, there's an injury or there's something that is disruptive. Things that are beyond his control.

And I sympathise with him on that point. I think you can look at the way they recruited in the summer and they obviously invested in young players like Wilson Odebeer who's been injured and Archie Gray who looks a great talent. And Dom Solanke. But Dom Solanke is sort of the only senior player they've got when they've lost, you know, Hojbjerg in the middle of the field. And that's a big change, right? And if you don't have that depth and suddenly you're in this injury spiral where you're playing players more than you would want to play them and otherwise would want to rotate.

yeah I can I can sympathise but I think he's sort of in a I think he's sort of resigned to where they are at and I didn't get I think he was also cautious that he didn't want to come out sort of praise the supporters he tried to praise the performance as well so they played well I think there's an element of trying to

protect his players as well because they're stretched right and when you're stretched that comes down to how your squad's built and then also how you're managing recoveries and part of that will be post-tacogli but a significant part is where Tottenham's squad is at and how they've built it. But one thing he can control is saying something like the 4-0 victory over Man City was a millstone round their necks.

Which I think is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard a manager say. I mean, it just makes you think, what's his mindset here? It's utterly bizarre. And also, we've reached the stage of the season where the cameras are panning to Daniel Levy looking unwell or stressed or ashen-faced. This is not... I think he's in deeper trouble than...

We think he might be. I mean, he might be, but I don't think he should be considering the circumstances he's having to deal with. I mean, as a coach, if you're trying to... I think the criticism of Postakoglu is he's not pragmatic enough. It's his way or there's no alternative. And I think we've... You mentioned the teams that are doing well in the league, Fulham, Bournemouth. These are coaches who have their philosophies but will be pragmatic. I mean, you're at Fulham Arsenal and you would see Fulham how defensively they perform. That's not the way they play all the time. Yeah.

Iriola's done that.

I think with Postacoglu, that pragmatism could be his undoing. It can reach a stage where these results pile up and you don't make the progress that you need to in your project, that it comes and undoes him. But at the same time, the reason he's not been able to do what he wants to do is because of injuries and the nature of his squat. That's a manager's job. But it's not just a manager's job. If I'm Daniel Levy or anyone with the control of who's appointed as manager...

I'm appointing someone, yes, I like the way they talk to the media. I like their personality. I like their connection to the fans. I like their CV. I like what they said in an interview. At every single club, you'll get problems. You'll have injuries. You'll have surprises. Things will happen. And you appoint somebody who's clever enough...

To say, OK, I'm with that player or this player or my midfield's a bit light and I will adjust accordingly, which is something that Maresca's... I mean, he's got loads and loads of players and his bench was far better stacked than Spurs was, but he has had problems in defence and he's found a way around it. You point to any manager who's doing well and they've absorbed problems, absorbed suspensions or injuries or whatever,

It might just be a tweak. It doesn't have to be a wholesale ditching of your philosophy. But Ange Postacoglu honestly doesn't seem to think it's worth his time to think, well, with my available players today, I'm going to play like this. He doesn't... I think that's utterly weird. There is a middle ground, I guess, though, right? When, like, there is a lot of luck involved. So these managers that you mentioned that have dealt with injuries well...

Sometimes they are a bit lucky. They've just so happened to have just enough out at one point to get through their matches at that current time and then got someone back for the big match or whatever. So I think there's a bit of luck involved. Having your two starting centre-backs, the actual good ones, get injured for this match to try and play a high line is a problem. At the same time, I think he's also trying to fundamentally restructure what it is to be Spurs. He's trying to grapple with this situation

the other millstone which is Spurs you know I think it's a really unfair term and it's it has lots of connotations right but he's trying to fundamentally take that away and say we think about these ideas first we are going to try to deliver and to add to this I also think it's quite hard to just change style when you have certain players you can't just set the

decide one day okay we've built the squad it's hard if you don't practice and train if you have for example Pedro Porro Udogi Van de Ven and then Dragosin right that's not a defensive line that can sit back and soak up pressure they're very very good footballers

but whether they can actually sit back and manage a game is a different question. Likewise, if you've got Koulousevski in the middle, if you swap him out for Maddison, will that team still be able to weather out a Chelsea storm? I'm not sure. That's, again, a matter of recruitment and maybe Postakoglu is involved in that, but I think that stretch is beyond him

and then you've got a really nice line of forwards. Not elite, but really nice. But can they... This question will go on and on and on about can you just switch a style? I mean, but yeah, I think it's slightly more complex than that. I think, yeah...

lean slightly towards Peter here. Yeah, so we've got two pro Ange camp and one not anti-Ange but just a little bit come on Ange, show us a little bit more pragmatism. I think we're veering to parody and comedy now with him. Interesting. We'll see what the future holds for Ange Postacoglu this week. A big game coming up against Rangers later in the week. A big match.

match of big set of European fixtures sorry I told you it was a cracker this game we've managed to fill the full first half of the show just talking about Chelsea against Tottenham but we've got loads more to come in the second half but it's time for a break so it's time for the quiz question Pete's excited to get involved for the first time this season when I ask who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played in the Premier League for Charlton Chelsea Newcastle West Ham Tottenham and Fulham find out after the break

Anyway...

Speaking of other fans who had arduous journeys... Does that explain your black eye? Yes, exactly, yes. Why I'm quite a little bit more sheepish this morning. No, I'm only joking, Charlton fans, all good fun. Unlike the game, which was nil-nil and deadly boring, by the way. Anyway, other fans who had difficult journeys home, Newcastle fans and Martin Hardy, all the way back from Brentford to Newcastle after that dismal defeat. Martin Hardy writing about how times have changed for Newcastle in the Times pages today.

But we need to talk about another game from Sunday. Alison Rudd in that first half of the show, we were talking about why Chelsea may or may not be title contenders and why they're in second. And the reason is that Arsenal could only draw at Fulham. No shame in that, of course, with Marco Silva's side being one of the standout performers of the season. Alison, this is basically the Alison Rudd derby, really. Fulham, a team that you're constantly pushing as one of the most underrated stories in the Premier League, pitted against Martin Odegaard.

thank God it finished 1-1 is all I can say but firstly on that watching from the office this felt like a perfectly fair result this didn't feel like Arsenal oh woe is me I know they had that change of the decision that went against them towards the end of the game which was offside but this felt like a fair result really in my opinion

Well, yes, although I don't feel like if Fulham had gone on the break and scored a winner, you wouldn't have felt pleased for them. And I think my marks out of 10 added up to more marks for Fulham players in total than Arsenal players, partly because I felt Fulham rose to the occasion more than Arsenal did.

Marty Urdegaard, he found it difficult with them being, Lukic in particular. Oh, he was fantastic. What a performance. Very biting on him, fairly, but he suffocated the space for him. They were, I mean, I think, I don't know, over the past, maybe forever, I don't know, maybe forever, Fulham have been seen as pretty and...

not really capable of a charge in the league but you might go there if you want to see some sort of flowery stuff I don't know but they were they were they were gutsy in this they worked so so terribly hard um it was it was and it wasn't like boring defensive ooh we're up against Arsenal it was they were brave with it and knew what their shape was knew what they were about um

They took the lead relatively early, which of course helps when you're the so-called underdog. And that was a really, really attractive goal. And I was so pleased for Raul Jimenez, who I interviewed a couple of weeks ago. He's on the verge of becoming the top Mexican goal scorer in the Premier League. And he took the goal so well. What a great finish. What a fantastic finish. Wonderfully, wonderfully. But I have to admit, every time, and I did confess this to Jimenez earlier,

Every time I see him head the ball, I wince. And I actually feel shivery because it's four years now since he had that appalling head injury. And the medic said he probably wouldn't play again. But he's out there with his...

headband on. It has a little bit of steel in it as well. And so you can never forget because of the headband, you can never forget what he went through. And he's the bravest, the bravest of strikers. I mean, the doctors said when he came back, they said, oh, you know, he was at Wolves and they said, you know, just for our peace of mind, please don't let him be on the near post when there's corners coming in.

And so in pre-season training, they kept him away. But he said to me, as soon as the season started, that's where I was needed and that's where I was. And he will do that. He's just so brave. And that epitomises, that attitude epitomised the whole of Fulham approach to the game, which was get stuck in, don't give, I mean, Anthony Robertson up against Saka,

Didn't give him much room either. He found that very frustrating afternoon. So the flair players for Arsenal found it difficult. I enjoyed the battle with Ademar Traore as well in the first half with corners where he seemed to be in very... We were talking about it in the podcast last week. How do you stop Arsenal from corners? Turns out you just put Traore on Saliba and just get him to shove him. No, you're not going anywhere. No, you're not coming past. Like a bouncer on the back post. Yeah, and that became clear later. That was why he was picked because...

didn't have his greatest game otherwise. He's a very frustrating player to watch. His pace is so thrilling and exciting. His distribution is woeful. And you kind of think, oh no, if only, if only. He's run, but he can't lay it off. But he's very good defending in the box when it comes to a team that I think they can power through on a corner. So yes, they, and this is in stark contrast, I feel, to what Spurs did.

against Chelsea. Fulham were on top of the little details. You felt they'd been highly coached, even though this was their third game in eight days. They were highly coached for this one. I have to say, Marco Silva looked absolutely shattered afterwards. You could see it had been a hard week's work for him. I'd never seen him look like that. He looked like he'd just run a marathon and someone was trying to ask him questions about it. He looked absolutely exhausted. But because they...

Made all the right decisions. All the right decisions. And I think that was embodied slightly in Arsenal obviously being frustrated at the offside goal Martinelli...

you know, the old cliche, you should never be offside when you're looking along the line. But even he and Declan Rice at the end, I thought those little niggly moments where you could just tell they'd frustrated the hell out of Arsenal during this game. And I actually felt it looked a little bit like we were joking, all of us in the office, about, oh, they've got a set piece, oh, they've got a corner. It kind of looked like that was the only way they would score. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were quite good at everything, Arsenal, and they needed to elevate beyond that. They weren't quite good enough in the... They had a lot of possession...

And there were some reasonable attacking moves, but they weren't great. They weren't too incisive. They didn't really trouble Bernadino that much. It was just... And then they thought, OK, well... And they did score. They did score from a corner. And you did know, watching it, and this is not being wise after the event, you did know that was going to be the only way they were going to get a goal because they're so practised at it. But otherwise, Arteta said he felt that they played...

brilliantly throughout and should have won I would politely disagree with that This is their thing isn't it that when games are level or when they're behind they just struggle to create an open play this has been a theme throughout this is what I mentioned last week their midfield like when there are spaces to attack they are fantastic because they love to play they like to win the duels in midfield and then play on transition but you can't do that when you are behind and this is why a few weeks ago I asked the question of is it better to be like slightly better in defence or slightly better in attack

And the two best statistical minds in the country from a football perspective, Ian Graham and Laurie Shaw. So Liverpool's former director of football, Laurie Shaw, City's head honcho of the data team. Both of them agree attacking is better.

If you can, if the choice is between just being a little bit better in defence, a little bit better in attack, you're much better served. The percentage is going to fall in your favour if you're working towards always attacking more. And Arsenal have seemingly, under Arteta at least, for a few reasons, and I think some of it stretches back to that period...

last season, or the season before, where they lost to Liverpool in the FA Cup. They played really well, they were attacking really well, and they lost a few games on the balance of the league. They went on the Dubai training camp, and Artestra essentially said, no, we're never going to do that again. We're going to make sure that we're always robust. So I think some of that stretches back to that, learning some lessons from that, maybe not the right ones. But yeah, this is their problem.

They attack down the right a lot. They don't attack through the centre much at all unless they're already winning and their left side isn't as functional. When they do have Calfiore and Timber and they underlap, overlap and invert, that's a bit different. But when they haven't got a full strength team, it's pretty much just Saka FC playing.

creating all the stuff and maybe link with Odegaard. I mean, the reason Odegaard's so good, he's fantastic anyway, right? The reason he's so good is that teams double up on Saka. That gives a bit more space for Odegaard to then play passes for everyone else.

But yeah, Havertz I don't think is pulling his weight up front. So a few problems. Yeah, interesting. A few little stats that I've got from this game. Arsenal haven't kept a clean sheet in any of their last six Premier League away games. Their joint longest run without one during Mikel Arteta's time in charge. Fulham unbeaten in their last nine London derbies in league competition. One for drawn five. Pete, Fulham are a team that you've covered quite a lot in the past.

What is it about them, some of the points Alison's touched on there, you know, Sasa Lukic coming in, lost Paulina.

got players in this team like Jimenez someone that they took a chance on and they're so well coached by Marcos is it down to mainly the coaching is it clever recruitment of picking up players here and there that maybe other teams don't want or other teams don't see the potential in but what is it that makes them so effective as a really well run hard to beat often you know mid table to upper mid table side it's definitely both I mean Gregor did a great piece on outlining what Fulham have done

in terms of recruitment in the week. I think the majority of their signings have been players with Premier League experience. They've sort of gone against the grain and signed, rather than looking for the next young thing that you can then sell on for a major profit, they've looked at players that basically are not valued enough for their quality level, and they've just reduced all the risk variables. If you bring in a player that knows the league, knows the language,

in some cases, knows teammates. We've talked about, you know, the former Arsenal players that they've got, they're almost going to throw Alex Iwobi, but they know. It makes everything easier. It's much easier to build in a team environment and it's worked. Marco Silva's done an unbelievable job at Fulham, in my opinion. These past three seasons, obviously getting Fulham up and keeping them up, considering the yo-yo seasons beforehand,

That's an achievement in itself. But then to lose Mitrovic, not then spend all of that money on one player to replace him. To then lose Palinia the following season after another mid-table finish. And then again, seemingly improve the team once more. The levels that they are reaching, they're getting the most out of the resources that are available to them. Do you think they're over-performing?

I don't think they're overperforming. I think they deserve to be where they are. I think what Silva's great at is getting the best out of these players, taking players like Raul Jimenez, as Alison was talking about, a player who hadn't really hit the same heights since that head injury, restore that confidence, play him week in, week out, and suddenly get him back to a... I mean, the goal he scored against Arsenal was phenomenal. That's him at his very best.

But you could go through the whole team. I mean, he had Tim Ream playing regularly as a centre-half back in the US World Cup squad. Pep Guardiola saying he'd sign him if he knew about him 10 years before. Mitrovic then goes for 50 million. Palinja goes for more than 50 million. That's all about coaching. And I think he's...

The way Fulham play, he has a very set system, doesn't change it. I mean, we talk about managers who don't change. I mean, his tactical setup is very much the same, but he will change players, he'll change profiles, he'll adapt to opposition, like we saw against Arsenal again, playing Adama Traore on the left, trying to exploit Thomas Partey and using him for set pieces. He's a very astute coach and he's getting so much more out of players. Sassou Lukic was a player who came in, had a really difficult first season. Yeah.

Then when Paulinho goes, right, you need to step up here. You know, Fulham signed Sander Berg. They spent good money on him. But it's Lukic come in and he's taken his game to another level. And that's been a consistent theme. And when you see consistently that players are improving, Anthony Robinson, another one. Yeah.

that's a sign of good coaching. So I think you have that and then obviously the excellent recruitment which has learnt I think the lessons of their previous attempts in the Premier League and have come up with a model that no one else is really doing and it's working really well for them. I was sat next to a Norwegian journalist and he told me he pronounced it Sander Berge. Berge. I didn't know that. Got to roll your R. Berge.

He was excellent. And also, can I just say, it was like, I don't know if this is always going to be like this from now on, but it was like being a pantomime.

Because every time Arsenal were awarded a corner kick, there was a sort of weird hush. Like, ooh. I mean, it's definitely going to be. That happened in the Timesport office, Alison. That was happening when we installed me and all the production editors. Oh, they've got a corner. Everyone stops what they're doing and watches the sell-in. It's weird when it's thousands of people doing it. And then the home fans sort of do that sort of ooh. And when they move in from the far post into the middle, they all make silly noises like, he's behind you. It's...

it sort of stops being a football match and becomes something else briefly. It was very amusing. That is such a major thing now. Just for Arsenal and for opponents. I spoke to Marco Silva about it. It's like, well, yeah, it's a big thing, not just because of the way they're scoring, but for fans. Like in the stadium, you feel it. So if that's affecting the mentality of obviously the opponent, but even for Arsenal, we're talking about Arsenal, you know, not being as creative and fluent in open play. If you're suddenly, everything's sort of, it's like, I don't know, it's gravity and it's just pulling them in to set plays. Yeah.

pulling you away from everything else absolutely Hamzy I think just on Havertz and on the set pieces two of his three shots were from set pieces and I think he has two open play shots from open play in the last three matches and before that he had no shots at all if you're going to play with a striker as I've said before you're just going to need to shoot but I do think the set piece stuff has gone too far when's it a problem seriously I think we have to ask if there's a lot of fouling going on it's quite distortive

if you're getting really high quality chances from set pieces at some point someone's going to say okay let's say we've got a goal kick what's the chance of us scoring from a normal build up face compared to punting long winning the second ball getting a throw in and then the Brentford no in all seriousness yeah and then maybe sort of someone like Michelin will try it out in a really extreme form all set pieces don't bother for open play build up whatever then someone smart like Brentford will adopt it

And then that's cool because it's a team trying to gain an edge in a different way. But when a big club does it, kind of ruining the game. Seriously, it's not good to watch. You think it's changing the spectacle in a negative way because there's too much focus? I am worried for because... For Arsenal? It's a low scoring game. Just for football. It's a low scoring game. If you can get goals...

in an easier way by playing for set pieces then the value of the goal is diminished and you're less incentivised to play the beautiful game in a beautiful way interesting it's fine if you're a smaller team doing that because you're trying to equalise the differences between you and a bigger team but there is a responsibility as an entertainer you never wanted a Tony Pulis team to win the league then I guess yeah

if it was Stoke doing it fine but if it was a big club playing as Stoke I don't know that's acceptable I think the fact that we're talking about it far I think that's a good thing I think it's been undervalued I think when we get into the point where set piece coaches are such a thing and it's becoming overvalued then you know like

I think we'll get to the point where we'll see new contracts for Nicholas Jover and he'll be wheeled out. Yeah, it'll be a big January transfer move, wouldn't it? We just cheered up Ange Postacoglu, didn't we? Because he doesn't believe in set pieces at all. Yeah, exactly. They've improved, actually. But they are the great entertainers. Anyway, we've had so much great in-depth analysis about only two games from Sunday, but we need to talk about the other big story from Sunday. I was on my way into the office and I got a message from Charlotte Dunker saying, I'm chasing the Asworth thing.

I was like, what? Oh God, Dan Ashworth, what's happened? I thought it might be something bad about his personal life. I thought he might have said something. I didn't for a minute think he'd have left Manchester United already. Only five months after being appointed as sporting director, due to, as Paul Hurst and Matt Lawton and Charlotte were writing on the Times website, a breakdown in his working relationship with Sir Jim Radcliffe and other members of the board. Sources said it had become clear recently that Ashworth was not a good fit for the club and vice versa. So it decided on Saturday evening that he should depart.

for Jim Ratcliffe and the INEOS team who were coming into Manchester United to sort this out. There's been some terrible decision-making going on for the last decade. We're here to sort it out. We're the professionals. They give Eric Ten Hag a new contract and then sack him. They wait for four months and millions of pounds for Dan Ashworth and then they get rid of him too. The optics...

are quite frankly abysmal are they not I was going to use the word abysmal as well they are what it does is it makes it look like the Ineos team that have come in don't actually know what they're doing it makes it look like they had grandiose ideas based on the fact that Man United were clearly in very bad shape

There were ways to make it more ship shape. We're good on marginal gains. We can go in here and we can make things much better because we know how to run a business. And they've gone in and football isn't a normal business at all. It's not even like cycling. It's different. And they've discovered this the hard way. So they think, oh, Dan Ashworth has a great reputation. Definitely want him. Yeah.

I'm not entirely sure why. There are certain people who think he's very good at self-promotion as opposed to actually doing that much. And so they pin all their hopes on him. And it's lack of research. When he was on his gardening leave that he was put on by Newcastle, did they not...

develop a relationship during that time. It feels like he's arrived and they just don't like what they've seen. Really bizarre, very poor business dealings. And the reason it's abysmal optically is because...

Jim Radcliffe and his team, that's the bit they're supposed to be good at, is being efficient and understanding that people make businesses and you attract the right people to your company and you get great results. And they look lost and it looks stupid and doesn't make Dan Ashworth look very good at all. I think his reputation has now plummeted as a consequence. And I think Radcliffe's has too. It's very strange behaviour. Yeah.

Yeah, what do we think about this idea then that Ashworth is maybe not quite as good as...

some people suggest because there was there was a slight bit of football manager-esque behaviour to this move when he went in at Manchester United where you know Ineos came in and were like we're going to change this this is an old-fashioned club we need modern thinking we need sporting directors we need technical directors we need directors of football and you go well who's the most famous one oh Dan that Dan Ashworth bloke he's really famous isn't he you know it'd be like that in a year's time where they suddenly decide they need a set-piece coach oh that Jova bloke quick we need to go and get him from Arsenal and

Hamza, what do you make of this idea that maybe United, as Alison said, haven't just done the research that we were expecting from this INEOS team? Yes, I think that's a fair point. The reason being...

INEOS are very good at saying that we are doing smart stuff, but you look at what they do, it doesn't look very smart. And we've discussed this at length before, so I won't go over it too much, but the idea of the sporting director is to give you structure and for them to be in place and oversee the club through managers. They're not meant to be chopped and changed like managers. So this is a failing of Ratcliffe to, first of all, say...

with the Ten Hag thing this is going to be a footballing executive decision and then going actually I don't like it I'm going to step in now and change it either you support the footballing group or you don't and you make those calls yourself so this is his failing As is Dan Ashworth he produced some excellent work with the FA for a number of years

But in my view, it was more of a technical director thing. And a technical director usually works on stuff such as game model, development, that sort of thing, which is slightly different to the director of football, sporting director thing, where you're engaged with recruitment a bit more and that side of the game. So one...

sporting director mentioned to me, Dan Ashworth is very good at what he does, but is he fundamentally someone that gives a thumbs up or the thumbs down on decisions? Because it's an executive position. That's what you need to do. You need to be across a range of groups, different stakeholders. If there's a transfer forever, for example, you're looking at the manager, the coaching staff, the board, the

the video analysts, all these sort of things. You're taking all their stuff together, they give you all their information, and then you go yes or no. Dan Ashworth, when he was working with the FA, that wasn't quite what he was doing, and he was quite keen to actually move out before he spent like 10 years with the FA to get back into the club game. He had limited experience at Brighton, small one at Newcastle. So he's trying to make that move over, but I don't think United recognised that, and when they got in, they went, oh,

He's probably better suited to being a technical director. You can't do what we wanted you to do. They've already got Jason Wilcox as their technical director, so then they have two technical directors.

or two people skilled in being technical directors and one whose experience as being a director of football doesn't quite match what they were after. But that comes down to a failure of recruiting. Again, you should be able to understand what this person is good at, speak to Newcastle in a favourable way. You can get that, right? If you make an approach in a proper way, you can actually ask, oh, we'd like to recruit this person. What are they good at? But if you make a sort of aggressive approach,

we want him and I'm like no he's our football director we will pay you for him you're not going to get that information so yeah I think it's a failure of groundwork to actually find out from Brighton I mean this whole thing I think it really does reflect quite badly on Ineos because as we've talked about they've gone in saying we're going to fix it as you outlined at the start and the fact that you end up in a scenario where you have a scenario like Ashworth as Hans has just outlined and the due diligence may not have been there for his appointment

and then you see the succession of decisions that have led to Ruben Amarim being appointed mid-season a coach with a totally different style of play to the squad in front of them no pre-season to work with the players quite clearly needs an overhaul the squad needs an overhaul anyway yeah

Not sure how they're going to pay for the overhaul as well, by the way. Well, that's good. If you make bad decisions, you've got to make good ones to get out of it. You can't just keep making bad decisions and keep spending your way out of it. You've got to live with those. Sorry, Peter. No, no, no. And I think for... There's two sides, because I... When you've recognised you've made a mistake by keeping Eric Ten Haag and should have made the change in the summer, we've talked a lot about

in football about how those decision makers don't always have that accountability to the decision it's always on the manager the manager's felt the manager's sacked everyone else carries on as normal so you think oh on the face of it that's a change they're actually saying actually there's accountability but with a decision like that it can't all be on Dan Ashworth this ended up in this scenario um

And I think for Ineos, it invites more scrutiny. I was just thinking back to their time with Nice. They're not new to football. No, no. But, you know, at Nice in the first, I think, the three seasons leading to their takeover of Nice in Ligue 1, they finished in the top four, I think, Nice. Since then, they haven't since. It's been 5th, 9th, 5th, 9th.

Recently they've appointed Franck Hez, who did really well at Lens, and they appointed a sporting director in Florent Gasolfi. Really highly rated figures. Gasolfi's gone within a year. He's gone to Roma now. And then you can even look at Lausanne, the team they own in Switzerland, a team that they talked about taking to Europe when they first bought them. They got relegated in that first season and have never really hit the same heights again.

When you create this kind of mess on this kind of scale, it's going to invite the scrutiny and go, actually, do these guys know what they're doing? Are they making the right decisions? Is the due diligence there, as we talked about? And right now, it really doesn't look like that. And, you know, we said abysmal. I think it's embarrassing for a club to set yourself as the people who are going to change and make right decisions to appoint someone who's barely been in the role longer than his gardening leave from Newcastle. Like, that's...

That's really quite damning. And I feel for Ruben Amarim because I think he's an excellent appointment. But the challenge, the challenge to overhaul that squad...

This season's going to be so horrible. I mean, the game against Nottingham Forest on Friday, you can see what they're doing. Yeah, I wanted to bring that in because, as you say, lots of us are very scathing about Ineos and Martin Samuel on the Times website similarly scathing. But I wanted to talk about that game because maybe it was a bit of a PR stunt to do Ruben Amar in a favour after another defeat against Nottingham Forest. Let's divert the attention away from him. We'll take one for the team, Ruben. A 3-2 defeat at home against Nottingham Forest. I just want to quickly get this stat in. Chris Wood,

The lad... Ah!

where has this come from no one saw this coming from Chris Wood absolutely phenomenal performances of late Hamza I wanted to just quickly talk about the game though because Pete said there Ruben Amorim can see what he's trying to do Greg has said something similar about the Arsenal game last week

But it does look increasingly like he's going to have to pull it apart and put it back together again. It's not going to be a quick fix. He's talked about the pain. You feel that the pain is coming. That's the same story for every United coach, isn't it? Pull it apart and... Yeah, I think Paul Hurst summed it up quite well in his piece. There's just a lot of sideways passing around the back that's just not very...

It spoke to a lack of confidence in the players to feel like they were able to punch the line and be aggressive because they were a bit worried about the reception from the fans. It's really interesting as well because Manchester United players have had this for a while. So the fans always want them to play in an attacking way. And often that means that they aren't happy with slow build-up. It's fine. It's how they like it. But that pressure also builds on both the players and the manager because they notice after they play five seconds

side passes like the fans they want attacking football they want you to move it forward very quickly and so suddenly the support becomes an encumbrance to them so yeah he has to strike this balance of giving the supporters enough seeing enough

whilst also trying to lay the foundations for a long-term project and getting the right things in. Yeah, it is quite difficult. I have a fair bit of sympathy for Amarim there. It's very difficult. It's a huge challenge for you. This thing's bonkers. What's bonkers? Ruben Amarim or any of them? Just the process that you've ended up. Amarim is a good appointment. He's a great up-and-coming coach.

but it's playing in a back free playing the system that he's going to play and he's going to stick to it because that's what's got him this far it's what's got him did well at Braga did fantastic with sporting

you've got the pressure of being a Manchester United player and then you're trying to get them mid-season where you don't have the time necessarily on the training ground to work at a back free and yes, professional players they're used to playing in all kinds of systems but at that top elite level adapting in a game knowing where people are trying to build up those understandings and rhythms of basic positioning especially with a wing back you don't even have a left wing back you're playing Diallo though he's been brilliant by the way since he's gone in there

It's hard to see how they haven't written off the season already, in my opinion. Some people might have. Some United fans might have. It's been a very difficult start to Ruben Amarin's time at the club and we'll see whether things can improve in recent weeks. I'm not sure that they will. I wanted to just bring in some insights on Manchester City against Crystal Palace from some of our team down on the Times editorial floor. We've been talking about what's wrong with Manchester City. Thankfully, we had two Crystal Palace fans there who have been able to speak to this morning. Turns out their insights...

it's Rodri it is Rodri there you go that's what they said he said I'm sorry Tom it's really obvious but it is Rodri it's nakedly obvious when you watch this City team they are missing him I was like thanks very much guys yeah cheers I'll make sure to share that on the podcast but they did also say that midfield is clearly a massive problem for City and that Palace were well worth their 2-2 draw and could have got a win on another day

I wanted to finish with Hamza asking you about an interview with Lee Carsley, the former England manager, back with the under-21s now. You went and spoke to him last week. It was on the Times website and it's in the game this morning. How did you find him reflecting on his time interim charge of England for those games?

is he positive about it tell us about obviously and his thoughts on that Greece game which came to kind of define his time he's still technically the England manager yes true sorry I've written him off already as Martin Ziegler wrote Thomas Tuchel will be attending the draw but he's doing so for free so until what a good guy working for free

I'm sure he's well compensated for that. They might be covering his expenses, I'd say. What you get out of attending that, I have no idea. Well, we'll find out because Johnny Othgore's going to be there and I'm sure he'll be asking Thomas Dukes some very difficult and interesting questions. But anyway, back to the current England manager, as you say, Hamza, Lee Carsley, and reflecting on his time in taking charge of those games.

Yeah, he really enjoyed it. He thought it was a fantastic challenge. And actually, whenever you're a coach at a particular level and there's a level to go up, you always think about how could I... How would I fare at that level? And he did it and his staff did it. Ashley Cole, Jolene Escott, the group. And they felt that they did a good job and that it was really affirming to them that they can do that. The Greece match, it's fascinating. I always find...

Personally, I found the way it was received quite strange. I remember speaking to our boss, James, when the team was announced because I was attending the match as a fan. And I remember saying to him how excited I was. I was like, look at this team. It's amazing. Everyone was excited. Everyone was. And then 45 minutes in, everyone, you know, this is rubbish. Which I think is the wrong way to think about something. And let's say I try and make a...

Nice egg on toast. It's simple, egg on toast, right? But it's not very good the first time. Do I go, oh, this egg on toast is rubbish. I'm never going to try this again. No, I just sort of give it a go next time, right? Because I think that the ingredients that I have are quite good.

Right? Sorry. Egg and bread. I'm watching you do this analogy and looking at Alison Rudd, who's looking at you like a proud parent going, this is Alison Rudd-esque. I'm not just saying standard egg and toast. I mean, let's get the Burfer Browns out, let's get some nice sourdough bread, some good sort of hand-spun... So anyway, the grease cream. Yes, so...

so yeah he was he said that he underestimated some of the emotional elements of it because of course George Baldock died or he was found dead just before the match as a

member of the Greek team and someone that they knew very well it affected them quite personally so I think the strong element of that that was powering the Greece team through and he said that he didn't quite appreciate that but he was glad that he tried it and personally I'll try it again no regrets with that and he believes that he's learnt a lot and now he will head back to the 21s but he's also going to

as he has before for previous tournaments a sort of scouting role if

Tuchel wants it for tournaments. So what they did previously in Qatar and the Euros was that the 21s team, they were the analysts, they would go out to a particular group, watch the group matches there, give analysis back to Steve Holland, Gareth Southgate, let them know what was going on. As it so happened, I think last time, the group that Carsley actually watched, they didn't play against. But I think it did happen in the first Euros. He might have done the Germany match, which England won 2-0.

So yeah, that's the role for the moment. He's going to have the under-21 Euros this summer in Slovakia. There is still a question there about which players are going to stay up because, for example, Nonny Madueke and Rico Lewis are both now...

probably senior players they're probably not going to drop down however there's also the club ball cup as well so we don't know their status there is now a sort of tete-a-tete that's coming between UEFA and FIFA how can you have two tournaments on at the same time when you've got national responsibilities and club responsibilities but we'll find out that in the next month or so where they will be going and he mentioned a few players as well that he thought would have been able to make the jump up Harvey Elliott

Jacob Ramsey, it's just a shame that they're injured. But yeah, I think he reflects quite positively on it. He feels quite proud of his achievements, but he'll be back working with the 21s. What's his aura like? I mean, does he strike you as someone who could have been England manager in his demeanour and the way he talks? It's a very interesting question because...

Southgate defined as England manager was very different to generally what came before he took all these different responsibilities he wrote his Dear England piece which is a

remarkable piece in which he sort of espoused his own vision of civic nationalism in a way that probably politicians since 2010 haven't weirdly right so he took this very statesman like figure Lee Carsey's not that I don't think Thomas Tuchel is I don't think many people are that so could he do that no he generally doesn't like that sort of stuff

But as you said, to me, what he loves more than anything is the football and working with the players. And I think in that sense, players responded really, really well to him. They enjoyed the experience. Well, Jude Bellingham definitely said at least that he did. So...

I think, yeah. Given that many of us were asked earlier this season by you, who do we think would be England manager? A few of us wrote that we thought Kassi would keep the job. I think yes. And perhaps maybe in 2026 when Thomas Tuchel's contract comes to an end, he might not choose to extend it. He may do, but there's a potential for...

Karsley to be the next one on the conveyor belt. Very interesting. Lots of more talking points in Hamza's interview with Lee Karsley which you can find on the Times website. Now guys that's all we've got time for on today's show. Alison Rudd, Hamza Khalid Luna and Pete Rutzler thank you very much for joining me. If you're wondering where Gregor Robertson is he's back home changing nappies after welcoming the birth of his second baby girl. Congratulations to him and his partner Susie. So he won't be back for the next few weeks but we will be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.