Coachella and the Changing Music Festival Hierarchy
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For most of the past 25 years, Coachella has been the number one music festival in the world, the biggest draw for fans and for artists. And according to my sources, the highest paying festival for artists, especially since it almost always sells out and now stretches over two three-day weekends every spring in Indio.

Coachella serves as the kickoff of sorts of the summer music festival season. Hundreds of events around the world, both large and tiny, from Ohana and Bottle Rock here in California to Glastonbury in the UK, Rolling Loud for hip hop, tons more.

The concept of a one-price, many-acts, shared cultural experience has been around for decades, of course, but the business of music festivals is in kind of a weird place these days. We've read all the headlines about how great the live music business is doing, but last year's Coachella didn't even sell out. There have been reports of about 90 or so festivals around the world shuttering or canceling their shows in the past year. Some like Electric Zoo, Life is Beautiful, Lollapalooza Paris, a bunch of others.

So why is that? Are there just too many festivals with higher costs for production, insurance, all the other staging expenses? Is the festival economic model sustainable? That's what we're going to get into today. And I've got Dave Brooks here. Dave is a senior director of touring at Billboard, a live music expert. He used to have his own website covering just the touring business. So today it's Coachella and the curious state of the music festival business. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is The Towne.

Okay, we are here with Dave Brooks from Billboard. He is the senior director of touring and a seasoned journalist in the music world. Welcome. Thanks, Matt. Before we get into just the general state of the festival business, how do you think Coachella is doing? I mean, last year, I think all of us were surprised to see that it didn't sell out. Did they sell out this year? Are they in good, solid footing? Yeah.

Well, I think they're doing better than they did last year. They have not sold out, which we know just by going to the website and seeing tickets are still available to purchase for both weekends. But I'm talking to a lot of booking agents who book the bands and they get the ticket accounts for Coachella. I mean, what I'm hearing is that 125,000 capacity each weekend and that right now they're at about 100 each weekend. Okay. Not bad, but that's still about...

little more than 20% unsold. Right. And it's far off from, you know, 2022 when they came back in that post-pandemic period when it almost instantly sold out. And years before, when Beyonce had one, it sold out, right? I mean, there's plenty of times it has moved all the inventory. And that's got to hurt a bit. Yeah. And do you think that that is lineup dependent? Or do you think there are other issues going on with

It could be lineup dependent. I just think there's just as much a saturated market of festivals that fans have so many options to go to. And also the price, you know, it's a lot of reach for some people. It's 600 bucks for a three-day GA path. I mean, that gets you in the door, right? It doesn't get you VIP or anything.

And obviously the big headliners this year, Lady Gaga, Travis Scott, Charlie XCX, Post Malone. You wrote an interesting story for Billboard this past week about how 60% of the tickets sold for Coachella were paid for via payment plans. Meaning you pay as you go. Yes. And that,

indicates to me that, you know, first of all, it's the demo. It's a younger demo. They don't have as much money, but it also shows the vulnerability of some of these higher priced festivals to the economy, frankly.

Right, exactly. I mean, it's not quite extending credit, you know, putting it on a credit card, but obviously that, you know, Superstar fans need some help paying for this thing. They can't cover it in that first shot. Right. It's so funny though, because then there's the higher end of Coachella, which is like the people who are, you know, helicoptering in and like, there's a no boo at Coachella this year. Right. Yeah, exactly. I think there's, you know, I think there's also that all the scalpers have kind of pulled out of it.

What do you mean? Scalpers used to buy a big chunk of the inventory for resale. And I think there's just too many tickets out there. They got burned in the past is what you mean. Yeah, exactly. There's just no upside, really, because there's just so much inventory. It's funny, though. I talked to an agent in the touring world this past week, and he said that still Coachella is the number one festival by far. It's

It is the highest profile. It is the place you want your act to be. They pay the most to the bands. I was surprised that globally there isn't a bigger festival out there. Well, maybe Glastonbury in the UK. Yeah, he said that was number two.

Right. Maybe EDC, Electric Daisy Carnival in Vegas, which for size, it could be slightly bigger or equivalent. But I mean, you're 100% right. I mean, the strength of Coachella is first, like in this position, right? The first major festival of the year. And because of the way radius clauses work around, you know, artists basically, artists have to give a certain amount of exclusivity to

Just to explain, when you play Coachella, you can't have played anywhere else before or after for a certain amount of time. What is the current time around that? What's the radius? Well, there was a lawsuit in 2018, and the radius was a year radius, six months before and six months after. No way. Really? Yeah, west of the Mississippi. Now, they've changed it a few times. They've changed it to now you can't.

announce something until Coachella, they've adjusted it, you can't announce until the announcement's made. And obviously there's tons of exceptions made. I mean, Post Malone, one of the headliners, is going on a stadium tour with Jelly Rolls. Yeah, I feel like Gaga also has a tour planned for this summer. Yeah, exactly. She's got a bunch of dates. And what is the going rate for a headliner these days?

So for Headliner, $5 million a weekend. So it's $10 million. Not bad. That's the top of the food chain. You know, you start going down when you start doing the Lollapalooza or an ACL just because the attendance is lower. Well, and that gets to the question of how competitive a festival like Coachella or some of these others are with a stadium tour because artists can get

eight to 10 million in gross per show at these big stadiums and arenas. And if you're looking at the agent saying, well, come play our festival, they're going to be like, well, why wouldn't my artist just

Play an arena instead. Exactly. And that's why you're not seeing a Beyonce headliner festival, right? Because you can make so much more money doing a stadium tour. You know, Beyonce or Taylor Swift can make $8, $10, $12, even $14 million a show. But that's gross. That's not a fee. And if you play Coachella, you're getting a fee.

Right. Yeah, exactly. If there was more Coachella's paying that five million dollars, you could see a model that could maybe compete against the stadium shows. But there's not. All right. So let's get into that, because I want to I want from you the health or lack of health of the festival industry. How are festivals doing these days compared to maybe 10, 20 years ago?

Well, they're definitely in a correction right now. It's very rare now, since the end of the pandemic, to see any of the major festivals completely sell out of tickets. From the Rolling Louds to the EDCs, I mean, they're basically kind of always on sale, right? And so there's a struggle there to completely sell out. And why is that?

Is that just for the reason we said, the big acts are doing their own thing? Or is there something cultural about the declining interest in these, like, galvanizing moments for certain types of fans? I think there's something cultural. I just don't... I don't think it's as...

A much more FOMO moment, as they say. Well, in my day, it was just that if Lollapalooza or Warped Tour or whatever, like it was something that you identified with. You were the kind of person that went to Jazz Fest or went to Lollapalooza. And I don't know if that's the same today.

Exactly. I mean, I think in some of the specialty festivals that applies, like the Electric Daisy Carnival, you're kind of a raper, you're an EDM fan. But going to Coachella, going to La Palooza doesn't really have any kind of identity anymore. It's to tend to value, I think. I mean, people look at these festivals and they're more and more thinking, how many artists I get out of this for my dollar? There's just also a lot of competition. There are so many festivals around.

in a place like Southern California, which is the festival mecca. There's Coachella, there's Beach Life, there's Bottle Rock up in Napa, which is just a short drive away. There's Ohana for old folks like me. There's Ohana, exactly, in Orange County. There's Outside Lands in San Francisco. Oh, yeah. Thank you, Craig. Yes. Yeah, exactly. There's so many options, and so it's just easy to try something new each year. Most of the agencies you talk to, they will say overall, festivals as an aggregate,

Sales are steady, but because of, you know, saturation, each particular festival property is subject to, you know, highs and lows. And that leads to more competition for the acts. Someone described it to me as a shift from the more general oriented thing.

festivals where you might go for a couple nights and see lots of different genres and bands that represent different fan bases. Now there's more of a deep dive type festival where if you are an EDM fan, you go to EDC. And if you are a hip hop fan, you go to a particular hip hop festival. And it's more the deep dive model than the general interest festival model.

Right, exactly. Or, you know, and then we saw this a couple of years ago also when Live Nation started rolling out some of their really genre heavy festivals. There was one called When We Were Young, which was like every 2000 millennial pop punk and emo band. Lovers and Friends, which is every R&B artist. Basale Mucha, which became like, you know, every nonlinear Spanish language artist.

But a lot of those have fallen away. Like lovers and friends didn't happen. Like someone sent me a stat that 90 festivals have either shuttered or canceled additions recently. That's worldwide.

Right. We did a deep dive on lovers and friends and a couple of other festivals that were book by a vision by this guy named Jeff Schumann. And we found out that he was paying, his model was basically paid talent 3X and then put, you know, you drive these huge attendances where you're doing 150,000 attendance and it sells out. The problem with that model was that a couple of misses and it

You're bankrupt. Right. But while it was good, I'm sure the agents were happy to provide the acts. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, that's what I was thinking with the agents. They're wondering, the question is, should they have dialed back the fees a little bit? Because the artist fees go up, up, up. And then what about things like insurance and the production costs and all that stuff that goes into these things?

All the production costs are prey to inflation, right? - Yeah. - And so much of the live music infrastructure, especially vehicles, were repurposed during the pandemic. Sprinter vans were turned into high-end RVs for rich people, right? And so everything now costs more 'cause there's less of it. And you're right, in terms of cancellation insurance, right, which is kind of like a liability insurance for a festival business, those premiums have gone through the roof.

just because of weather-related cancellations. Yeah, someone was telling me that the weather-related problems are actually a lot bigger issue these days because of all the climate change stuff. I mean, this weekend at Coachella, it's going to be 100 degrees. And a source of mine was saying that they're

about some health issues there. And there's more tornadoes. There's more extreme weather that's causing a lot of these festivals have problems. Yeah, I mean, just thunderstorms. I mean, thunderstorms and lightning wreak havoc on a festival. And yeah, because you got to clear everyone out. Yeah. And then, you know, when you look at the other issues, like when you're competing with some

Some of these headliners, I'm looking at the list of big touring acts this summer, and it's like Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar and SZA, Post Malone, Shakira, Bruce Springsteen, Usher. These are big acts that don't want anything to do with these festivals.

Well, you know, a lot of these acts kind of broke through festivals. But now, I mean, it's just a different business model for them. This is a stadium show. And some of these productions, they're like, they are almost like miniature festivals. Yeah, you go to see Taylor Swift, you get three or four Himes or Gracie Abrams or other acts that you might have seen at a festival.

Right. And while it's still expensive, it's half the cost of a Coachella. But then you don't get to like post your video of you with the mountains in the background and the peace sign and your headband. That's true. You just, you just, you have a stadium section somewhere. Right.

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or leaf blower, or start and love the yard again with colorful flowers and fresh mulch. Start your spring with early savings at the Home Depot. Shop now at homedepot.com. How have the agencies, the booking agencies, changed their strategies around festivals? Because I have heard that there's been a shift

For the big headline artist clients, you know, A, they have a lot more leverage now. Lots of festivals, only so many acts that matter. Yeah, exactly. But I think, I mean, I think a lot of the agents also look at, like, these festivals as kind of media, media plays are kind of branding moments, right, for an artist. It's not just about a payday anymore. It's like, how are they going to use this moment effectively?

to push a new album or a new project. Gaga is playing Coachella not because of the check, but because she has a new album. She's 40 years old and she wants to remain cool for young people. And branding, that makes perfect sense for her.

Exactly. I mean, same thing in No Doubt last year. Gwen Stefani, she was already headlining another festival before that, and they got brought in for the No Doubt reunion, which, you know, they didn't follow up with more shows, but it was still a big moment for Gwen, and she gets to be in the spotlight and get all attention on her, and she can promote whatever project she wants to work on.

Right. And that is true for some festivals, like not some, like, is it beyond Coachella that the branding moments? I mean, I think that it's mostly Coachella. Yeah. Unless an artist does something kind of outrageous or wild. No other festivals kind of have that. But also the streaming audience that Coachella has. Yeah. The live stream for Coachella gets more viewers than the Grammys.

That's amazing. No, that's worldwide. And I don't, you know, I don't check me on that. That is coming. That's coming from comparing there too. But like, it's a big deal. I watched the year Beyonce was there.

Yeah, and now they have six different streams going at one time. It's really easy just to hang out in your living room and watch it. And you can catch so much of the festival. Fewer porta-potties, too, when you're watching it. Yeah, exactly. But in that way, Coachella is kind of an outlier. I mean, does it make sense anymore to have Pearl Jam and Travis Scott on the same bill for a festival? Like, that's the question.

Trader's definitely moving away from that. The general interest that the contemporary music festival is going extinct, I think. I think what's being created, it's new, it's much more curated, it's much more genre-specific, a lot less about mixing all kinds of different contemporary music. I want to go through with you the top five

festivals right now from a business and relevance perspective. Okay. And I'm going to go through a list that an agent gave me, and I want you to tell me whether you agree or disagree, and you can feel free to offer your own choices. Okay. Sure. The qualifiers here are revenue and relevance, and I guess star power, but that's sort of the same as relevance. Okay.

Okay. Number one, obviously, Coachella. Still. Yeah. Despite the weaknesses lately, still Coachella. Trendsetter, biggest acts, general interest, like...

Still matters. Second, this agent said it was probably Gloucester Berry in the UK. Right. And that's, I mean, that's going to be your big look. All this is that Coachella does, but it's going to be to your European audience, right? Yeah. A little grungier. You got to, you got to really commit. You got to be willing to get in the muck on, at that festival. It's not, there's no, you know, luxury experience like a Coachella, but very well. Like who's, who was the headliner? Most recent headliner.

I'm not sure who those recent headliners is. This year, I believe it's the 1975 Olivia Rodrigo, Neil Young. That's pretty good. I mean, yeah, you see, I mean, Olivia Rodrigo, one of the biggest artists in pop. Doesn't need to do a festival, but she did. Right. Yeah. Okay. All right. So that's number two. You agree that's number two? Yes. All right. What about three? My source said it's between Outside Lands and Austin City Limits.

I would tip the hat more towards Outside Lands just because it has a little bit more reputation for identifying the latest in contemporary music, listening to new music, as opposed to commercial appeal. And they're truly progressive with what they do up there. The latest in the last couple of years is they've done curated cannabis shows.

It is in Golden Gate Park. You can pretty much curate your cannabis by just going up to a random person in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. That's a good point. But, you know, I mean, sort of just kind of pushing the needle towards...

Toys of Music and it's in Golden Gate Park it's a beautiful festival and it's big they make a lot of money on it who promotes that it's called Another Planet Entertainment it's the offset of Bill Graham's old company ah okay big deal in the Bay Area okay so then Austin City Limits do you still think that that deserves to be there

You know, I would put Lollapalooza ahead of Austin City Limits. Same company. Yeah, same company, Live Nation. But they're both, you know, that's, again, that's going to be kind of the latest in all kind of multi-genre festival. Yeah. They had a moment. Was it last year or the year before with Chapel Roan?

Oh, last year. Yeah. It was her big year. Yeah. You know, that was kind of every booker's dream. You know, you book the artist in February or whatever, the year before when they're just breaking out and then they start having this huge moment. And then for the artist, it was a great moment for her because she had this huge image of her on the Lollapalooza stage just kind of announcing herself.

Right. She was like the most talked about set for Law Palooza. I mean, it's incredible. So those are all in the rock genre. So the other one was, I'm sorry, what is the hip hop one? Rolling Loud. Rolling Loud. That Rolling Loud was number four on my guy's list. Rolling Loud's for true hip hop heads. That's another one that's in L.A. They do it at Hollywood Park.

Yeah, it's in LA. There's, there's a, a New York edition, a Miami edition. They've done it overseas before. Okay. You know, I think that the influence rolling out is, is waning a little bit. You know, last year it wasn't, it wasn't a great look when they had Kanye West did yay perform. And, and,

Really make it sound like he was actually going to rap and use the microphones. And instead, he kind of came out and did his just vibing off his new music. Wait, you're saying Kanye West did something erratic and strange? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Now I get it. And I mean, is that just a reflection of sort of the decline of hip hop on the charts and Spotify and the other services? Yeah, I think so. I think it is. Yeah.

All right. So you're just being there. What would be your number four then? Well, I would say this, one that nobody is looking at right now. Vans Warped Tour. No way. Which is coming back after a 15-year break. And it's a tour, so it's not a festival. But there's three of them. The main one will be in Long Beach. It sold over 80,000 tickets. Wow. And that's just nostalgia? What is that?

It's just nostalgia. I really think. I think it's like, it's a low price too. It's like 150 bucks. Yeah. And what kind of bands are on that? You know, your Pennywise, your pop punk bands. Someone described this genre of festival as the black t-shirt festivals. Right. Which is apparently a term in the touring business. And I was like, oh my God, I instantly get what that is.

Oh, totally. But I mean, these are going to fan as you want because these people have been going to shows their entire life. I mean, they're live music consumers. Yeah. Now they bring their kids. Exactly.

And so Warped Tour is going to be one of the best-selling events this year in terms of volume. All right. Then number five on my guides list was a tie between Bonnaroo and something called Oceaga in Montreal. Right. Oceaga. Yeah. It's by Eventco up there in Montreal. It's a very similar event to Coachella.

And so is it general interest or what type of music? Yeah, general interest. Like, I was looking at the Arcade Fire. Okay. You know, Wyclef. You know, really kind of driven towards contemporary music. You know, both those events are great. I would put number five, though, would be Bottle Rock up in Napa. Oh, interesting. Because that's the high-end music.

And so that's the top festival for rich people. Yeah, I have friends in the Bay Area that go to that every year. And it's bands that were cool in the 90s that now go to...

Bottle Rock and Ohana as well. Like the Pearl Jam crowd. Exactly. Queens of the Stone Age. Yeah. Yeah. You know, bands like that. And then I would say, you know, that would maybe tie that with Stagecoach, which is the world's biggest country music festival. The country Coachella.

Yeah. And it's sold out this year, you know, which I know the stagecoach, the footprint is slightly smaller. Yeah. And Coachella is in the same place. It's about 90 to 100,000 people. So stagecoach sells out, but Coachella doesn't. Right. And who's the headliner?

Zach Bryan is one of the headliners. Eric Church. Oh, and Chris Davidson. So your Nashville kind of crowd. You've got to count Zach Bryan, who obviously kind of has some Americana movement. Yeah, the other, the honorable mention was Governor's Ball, which is apparently a big deal in New York now. Yeah. They finally found, they're in the, what's the...

Flushing Meadows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Supposedly festivals have a bad history in the New York area. They just don't really work. Is that just a weather thing? What is it about the crowd there?

Yeah, I think it's a weather thing. I think that, you know, they put them on, you know, Randall's Island for a long time, which is just like not a great site. And I think it's just not as much of a festival scene there as there is in the Californians. Yeah, when I briefly was working with Billboard, they tried to do a festival in New York and it was a total disaster.

Power 100 Festival. I forget what it was called, but it did not work. At Jones Beach. Yes. I mean, any festival in New York is going to compete against the free concerts they have at Central Park, which is, that's, you know, kind of the high. Those do so well because it's sponsorship and stuff. And so most people would go to that instead. All right. Dave Brooks, thanks for coming on. Thanks, Matt. I appreciate it.

We're back with the call sheet. Craig, did you see this news out of the Academy yesterday? Pretty big deal. Yeah, the stunt category will now be officially a part of the Academy Awards. Yes. Stunt Design is being added as an official competitive Oscar that will bring the total number of Oscars given out to 25 on the show because they are already adding a casting opportunity.

Oscar that will debut with this next Oscars in March. And then if the 2028 show, which will be the hundredth anniversary of the Oscars, they are doing a stunt design Oscars, which I am a big fan of. I think not only is this a welcome recognition of all of the stunt work in these movies, but a chance to bring in more of the blockbuster style movies that more people have seen and

The problem is that when they announced this, they did not say whether this will be given out on the telecast. They just said that it will be determined at a later date, which is sort of a wishy-washy way of punting the decision on how to give out another Oscar while also not

adding more time to the show to the Board of Governors for determination later. It's funny, right? Because it would be very stuntman to receive an Oscar without actually getting to go on stage. Yeah, I know. And who actually gets it is going to be...

I think, determined later because is it the stuntman? Is it the person who's the stunt coordinator? Like, who actually receives the Oscar will be interesting as well. But my prediction here is that I think they are going to give away the stunt Oscar on stage because it is just too...

alluring to the Academy to have some new moments, some stunt, for lack of a better word, that they can add to the show. Imagine like they're giving away the Oscar and they could have Tom Cruise jumping from the rafters and then he gets up and it's like a stunt double or something like that. Do you think that they will lean heavily towards rewarding the actors who do their own stunts so that they can get stars on stage?

The way the Academy works is that the branches nominate the nominees and then the full Academy votes for the winners. And there are, they say, more than 100 stunt professionals that are already members of the Academy and they are in the production and technology branch of the Academy. So presumably that will be the branch that ends up nominating the stunt performers.

It would be fun for, if a stuntman won, I would like the real actor to come up with them on stage and accept the award. That would be great. Yeah, that'd be great. It's a great moment. And when I tweeted this news yesterday, like instantly in my feed, people were just tweeting images of Tom Cruise doing crazy shit. Like he, I mean, I hope he has a movie in 2027, maybe a new Mission Impossible if this one does well, and he can get up there and win, finally win an Oscar. It'd be a little ironic if he wins for stunts, but

It would be great if Tom Cruise got an Oscar for this. It is funny because I feel like while...

Stunt work is very important to moviemaking. It feels like it is less important now because of all the effects, right? It was like back in the 70s when they would make some James Bond stuntman run over a real pond filled with alligators, and now nobody's doing that stuff anymore. Yeah, not a lot of people are, though presumably the branches would figure out how to reward the stunt design, whether it's a mix of practical CGI and other things that they could...

everything comes together to execute the stunt. They would be the judge of that. You'd think like, like Keanu Reeves and John wick, what they do is very impressive. Exactly. And there's lots of examples of that. And again, that's John wick is not the kind of movie that would typically get nominated for an Oscar. So it would bring that in and maybe Keanu would show up and it would be a nice thing. The campaigning would be great. You know, they could show off the stunts at some event or something. That would be very cool.

I do think it's going to be presented on the awards, but that raises the question. It'll be so entertaining. I mean, you can literally do a stunt on stage for a huge movie. I agree, but the show's already long. They've got to figure out how to get categories off the stage. My proposal is that they get rid of the shorts categories, put them at the governor's awards.

The shorts categories still have no business. I know I get angry emails every time I mention this, but the shorts should not be on the show. There's other categories they could do before or after or at the Governor's Awards, but this is one stunt that should be on the live show. They should include it all. Four-hour show. Exactly.

Just have it be all day like the Grammys, but the Grammys only televises three hours and then there's a whole day of other awards. So, all right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guests, Dave Brooks, producer Greg Horlbeck, our editor, Jesse Lopez. And I want to thank you. We will see you next week.