Episode 169 Kenny Hill
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Welcome back to Classical Guitar Insider. This is your host, Brett Williams. Today's show is sponsored by SavageClassical.com. That's S-A-V-A-G-E, classical.com. You can go there and talk to Richard, Richard Sage at Savage Classical, and he can hook you up with the guitar of your dreams. And perhaps that guitar was made by our guest today. He is Kenny Hill. That's right. Isn't that exciting? I'm excited to talk to him because you see the name everywhere everywhere.

You see the guitars being given away in the raffles and, and then, and then you've heard him, you know, you've heard his models played a bunch of people at Manus when I was going there, we're playing his, his instruments. He's got instruments made at all the different levels. Um, he's got a small team of people, right? Not a conveyor belt, but just a team of like about three of them.

that are making these guitars right now. And he's also, I didn't know this, but he's a composer. He is an instructor at, I think, either Cal State or University of Santa Cruz. Sorry, I don't remember exactly, but he's a college professor. So there's a lot to this guy. I could have gone a lot longer. I'm trying to keep the shows about 50 minutes, right? I don't know.

It's just also I don't have as much time as I used to. I can't just sit there and talk to people for two hours. I mean, you guys don't understand. I would get off of these calls and then I was so in the middle of it with everybody that I would talk to them after I hit the stop record button and get to know them. It was one of my favorite parts of doing the job, but I don't got it anymore. Not with the baby, not with the wife, but things are going well. I don't want you to think things are going bad. They're going great.

new place. Can you hear the echo? I'm sure you can. I think you can hear it. Um, I haven't really done anything. Not that I usually do anything. Uh, you know, I don't really even turn off the air conditioner if it's too hot, but, but basically, you know, I haven't, this is a big room. It's the baby's room and my office. And,

I love it. We have a backyard, a big, beautiful backyard. I never thought I would say that. And more importantly, most importantly, my landlord is not a total piece of shit like the last one. So that's great. I absolutely hated that last landlord. She was such a mess. She would scream at Liz in front of the kid about nothing, just about like leaving the door open for three seconds or whatever.

The reason we had too much stuff in the recycle. It just, just, I mean, look, and I understand in any apartment in New York, uh, the biggest thing they care about is the trash. Cause that's where the fines come from. Right? So if you put the wrong stuff in the wrong place, they can get really, this person was on us about anyway, she's gone. She is gone. I didn't even bother. I am so sweet and nice to people.

She's an elderly woman, and she basically kicked us out without any notice or anything. So there was nothing legally she could do. And she kicked us out. But she kicked us out the second day we were there. So it started out bad. She also, you know, no bikes. No bikes, she would say, right? No bikes. That was her whole first week. We brought bikes in. We were out. That was the deal. Can you imagine?

Living under those circumstances for almost three years. So that's New York for you We have been pushed further east into the beautiful neighborhood of Bushwick. I swear to I swear to God They're just gonna kick us into the ocean, you know, they're just gonna set up rafts and if you aren't in in banking and

They're just going to throw us on a raft and then they'll just say like, this is a great raft. It's a great raft. It comes with window units and we'll pay for the gas. And we just need a deposit, a broker's fee, last month's rent. And if you can, you can sweeten the deal on the broker's fee if you really want it. So anyway, yeah, I'm further east. It is a nice neighborhood. There is like a, I don't know. It's making me think about gentrification in a real way because this is,

Um, you know, we're moving into a neighborhood where, you know, there are other, there are other people like us in this neighborhood, but definitely there are people that aren't of the same economic, um, background as Liz and I are combined. And I think what I'm going to do

This sounds so white boy bullshit coming out of my mouth. But I think what I might... What I'm trying to do is instead of just coming into this apartment and then just, like, inviting all of my white college friends over, I'm thinking... I have. I have been trying to become friends... Like...

actually becoming friends with the neighbors, getting to know them. You know, we had a barbecue. We were throwing food over the fence at people, getting to know the kids in the neighborhood. So Wally grows up with some people that, you know...

with a whole bunch of different kinds of people. It's important to me. It was the way I grew up in Stockton. In Stockton, the thing about moving east, the east coast and the west coast are different in a very distinct way. And you feel it immediately. You feel it when you step into Texas and you feel it when you go east is that there is absolutely still segregation on the east coast. And in the west coast, less, not as much. I mean, there are pockets, but

of assholes, but there are, there, there is definitely a fee in Austin. It was like East of 35 back in the nineties was like, it, there was a line. And, um, so, you know, if I'm going to be here, just, you know, whatever. I was getting tired of my friends anyway, and I'm older and I need to just talk to people with kids. And so that's, uh, that's the way I'm going to try to do it. Is that, I don't know.

Because there definitely is an issue here, right? But the apartment is really nice. I don't know if I should I've even gone there. Is that like overstepping? I don't know. But I have these thoughts. And, you know, I think that what people generally do is they come and then they invite all their old friends over and all the people they want to hook up with. You know what I mean? Like all that stuff. And I kind of feel like, you know, no, like I want to be part of the community, you know, get to know people.

And stuff like that. And not in a sort of like, oh, a do-gooder way. That's not what I mean. I mean, like, actually, I'm tired of hanging out with the same kinds of people. Every time I have a problem with a friend or somebody or like a family member, I'm always just like, yeah, no shit. You've been living this way, having these conversations, talking about the same shit for 47 years. You know? I probably, I know what I sound like.

I am very self-aware that there is nothing I can do to fix this issue. But the fact is that we're living here because we were kicked out of the old neighborhood. And this neighborhood is great. This is a beautiful neighborhood. It's a beautiful pre-war building.

The neighbors are great. Everybody's nice. Everybody's sweet. There's not that standoffish Greenpoint shit. The hipsters are here for sure, but they're not. It's not like they're, no offense, French hipsters. I haven't heard any of, I haven't heard. Once you hear the French get near a neighborhood, that's when you know you have a problem.

that's when you know that your rent's going way, way the shit up. And I'm sure that everybody around here feels the same about me, you know, with my $200 stroller, my Patagonia jacket. If you want to support the show, please go to brettwilliamsmusic.com. That's B-R-E-T williamsmusic.com and throw me some money. The rent has increased significantly.

The cost of the move wasn't that bad, I'll say. The movers we used, what did we use? Sven? Yeah, there's like moving wars in New York going on. I don't know. There's all sorts of stuff where you can, they're literally, they're trying to get $2,000 to $3,000 to move you now. And Sven is still keeping it real. They're still keeping it under $1,000. And they deserve it. I mean, they kill it.

Nothing's broken, so that's great. I had to pack up the whole place. I know I'm going over on the intro, but a lot's going on, right? I went to California for the first time to go visit my parents, introduce them to the kid. And that was a total pain in the ass, I'll say. My Achilles went out. I couldn't walk for four days.

I thought I had a rupt... I didn't know what was going on, and they thought I might need surgery. So, like, I was on crutches, and I got to the surgeon, and he's like, look, you're going to be fine. So I had sort of a false... What do you call it? Diagnosis from the CityMD guy. So always double-check your CityMD stuff. Anyway, so, you know, I talked to Kenny Hill here, and, you know, we...

I want you to look out for the moment that, uh, you know, I had a life lesson taught to me. I just got reminded of the fact that I need to go to more concerts that I need to do more than I need to get out there more because, um, that is anyway, Kenny talks about it. Let's, let's get on with the show. Let's, let's talk to Kenny. You are ubiquitous when it comes to, uh,

sort of sponsoring different projects in the guitar world. Let's go ahead and say maybe you're like the Augustine of guitars. Like you really do reach out and support a lot of organizations. You fund a lot of concert series. And also you give away a lot of guitars. I've played your guitars. It's, you know, as a New Yorker, my friend Sylvia played your guitars. Giacomo played your guitars.

So I was really curious as to sign. I feel like people would really like to hear from somebody whose name they've seen on so many concert bills over the years. That's funny. But, you know, and also just a person whose guitars are kind of all over the place. And and they are, with the exception of what I understand is the is

Is it the new century? Not the new century, the Chinese made guitar. New World. That's sort of a project that's relatively recent that you've started, so we'll talk about that. But with the exception of that, these guitars are all made by you? Is that safe to say? No. It used to be. In the 90s and into the 2000s, pretty much all of the Hill guitars were made by me. But I got, at a certain point...

I realized the value of working with a team. And it's fun. You learn things from people that you work with and you can progress through the evolution of R&D or whatever you want to think of it as much faster.

if you have to do every single move yourself and answer every single phone call and return every single email, it takes forever to do something. And you know, you're lucky if you can make 20 guitars a year and that's working really, you know, 10 hour days probably. But with, by, you know, working with teams,

then you can you can get not only can you get more of whatever you're doing done, but you can you can evolve faster because you can try things quick and you get the you get the answers to experiments much more quickly.

Um, usually I'm in the, when there's a change happening, I'm doing it because I don't want anybody else to feel the pressure of not making mistakes. I'm willing to make mistakes. I don't care. Um, that's how I learned. But, uh, but then when I can pass that, whatever I've learned on to, um,

somebody else to execute, then you can do it because you never learned something just by doing it once. You never really do. You need to do it 10 times to find out what the effect of what you're really trying is doing. And so it takes, you know, that could be half a year. It could be a year if you're working just by yourself. So it's been a more rewarding career arc, I guess, to work with groups of people.

Let's talk about that group. So that group from what I've seen, how many people are in your current, you know, Right now, right now, I've just got two and a half people in the workshop. And that's what I read that there was only three online. So that's two and a half people. Plus me. Plus me. Well, the half just means he comes in on weekends, you know, he's a now retired career guy who's It's not a height issue or a girth issue. He's both sides. He's both sides.

So you only employ full-sized humans to do your business? Yeah, yeah, so far. I'm a whole bunch of...

yeah you know it well i i mean you are working with wood and and there are elves involved in some in some scenarios where what is well in your head mostly that's my favorite joke that i've ever made as far as um everything else going into the people that you are working with are the are they serving sort of as apprentices or are they sort of their own luthiers these guys are better than me now

I mean, certainly I've dealt with apprentices and you hire people that have minimal experience. And over the years, I mean, I've had as many as 15 people working for me in my shop here in California. It's been a while since it was a team that size. But gradually, it's just gotten harder and harder to employ people.

There's nobody. And it used to be, I'd get somebody asking me for a job like at least once a week. Now it's, I haven't had anybody, you know, a kid wanted a summer job last month, but nobody comes anymore. Nobody's looking for a job, at least not around here. Why is that? Why do you think that is? You mean like looking for a job as a luthier? Do you think there's a lot of people making guitars or do you think they've just kind of given up on making money?

Well, it's it's a societal issue. Really? You know, nobody wants to be a plumber either. Nobody. Everybody wants to be a YouTube star, you know, or something, you know, an influencer, a tick tock star. I guess, you know, people are just not interested in tools.

So much stuff is electronic or online or whatever. I guess, you know, I mean, more and more, I'm not as much in the swim of what society is doing, becoming more and more of a homebody and living in my own little bubble here. And I'm, you know, I'm delighted. I was out in the world so much for like 30 years, flying someplace all the time and being in so many places.

business social situations that, you know, with the quarantine and the pandemic, all of that stuff cooled off and I haven't really let it heat up that much again afterwards. So, you know, it's just another generation here. If I go to a guitar festival, I'll see...

younger guys who are making the guitars and maybe they got one guitar to show or two guitars or something and trying to make a career out of it. But that is a steep climb. I'll tell you, making a guitar is fun. It takes a lot of time to get really detailed and get good at it and find your own voice.

and your own style. But the business side of it is hectic, you know, to build a reputation, to develop the media, to develop the financing and all of that to go with it. So it's not a very practical vocation, really, you know. And in the generations that I grew up in,

you know, doing something that was kind of crazy was fashionable almost, you know, uh, going off, striking off in your own direction. And that's exactly what I did when I was in my twenties and haven't looked back. But, uh, you know, if you're trying to support a family or, um, you know, just live a decent, um, financial lifestyle, it's a hard way to go. I've always said when somebody wanted a job, uh,

you know, came to me for a job. I said, well, first question is like, what's your spouse do for a living? Yeah. How's your family? Are you inheriting money? It's a good question to ask because, you know, and I sort of talk about that on the show a lot just because a lot of listeners are struggling.

'cause they're just by virtue of doing what we do. And it is sort of like, I kind of sort of try to out a little bit the fact that nobody here is making enough money to really support a family. In order to do that, the amount of work and also capital investment from other sources that has to go into it is astronomical. And especially right now with the price of everything, you talk on your website about how difficult it has become

to do business and to sort of get the newer models that are coming from China, how to get that going and everything post-pandemic. Supply line is one thing, but also just like some sanctions and stuff like that that you're having to deal with. It's just a completely different world as far as being able to afford to have your own business, not only as a guitar maker, but as doing anything.

it seems like it's just the bar to entry for anything if you're a teacher the amount of training that you have to do uh just to get a summer job for a couple of days is is insane the amount of like you know background and this and that which there everything's there for a reason but at the same time you can't help but think that there's just way too much bureaucratic

Like everywhere we go. It's true. It's true. And it really, you know, and the technology is moving fast. And, you know, I'm kind of sluggish, very sluggish in terms of getting that stuff. Earlier, you know, in the first, like in the early 21st century, late 20th and early 20th century, I was willing to catch on to the latest thing, whatever it was. And I, you know, I benefit from it. It was like, I got to do it right, you know. And there was a point where,

You know, going, being an artist and we'll say whatever kind of artist it is, whether it's a builder or a player or, you know, you name it, but yeah.

that that was enough in a way. And you say, well, I, you know, I don't care about business. I'm not, I'm not in it for the money. I don't care about business. But then there was a point where I was doing this. I said, well, you know, you want to make a good set to myself. When you're making a guitar, you want to do the best job you can. But when it comes to the business sphere,

You're a loser. You did a terrible job. So come on, you know, that it turns out nobody's going to do that for you.

So do you want to do a good job making guitars and a bad job making business? That didn't make sense. You know, you want to do if you want to do a good job in your art, you want to do a good job in conducting business. You want to do a good job parenting or gardening or cooking or whatever you're doing, then buck up, you know. Go ahead. I'm sorry. That's a hard transition for a lot of dreamers to make.

You know, you're dreaming about your work, you're dreaming maybe about the success of your work. But then the details of taking it to that point are really annoying. You know, yeah, to do stuff you don't want to do. Now, I was such a, I guess a narcissistic child, I never wanted to do anything I didn't want to do.

you know, and I still don't. But there's a certain amount of it when it comes to the infrastructure of business and career that you've got to just get with the program, you know? Yeah. For you, what were those things? You know, I mean, I know that for everybody who has been successful, and like I said, you know, you are everywhere. The Hill name is obviously something that at least some thought

from a business perspective has gone into because everybody knows your guitars and that cannot be said of

you know, Lutheran. Unless they are just like, unless Anna Vidovic is playing, you know what I mean? Unless that's the situation. You have a unique situation where you have these guitars, of course you have the legacy model and stuff like that, which is your sort of like, that's right now. That's a 22nd century guitar there. It's like a whole different thing. You also have the new century. You have the traditional models and the traditional business model

of, of, of a luthier, but at the same time, you are reaching into that middle market and you always correct me if I'm wrong, but you always have, that sort of has been where you're going into is getting as many good guitars into the hands, not good guitars, but great guitars into the hands of as many people. Well, it's, you know, the, the, the, there's a couple of layers on that. One is that I'm really a working class guy, you know, that's it. And, uh,

And so I don't feel like, oh, I need to have an elite position, you know, that I need to only have the highest prices, the most elite artists, all of that. That's not who most people are.

that guitar playing is for the masses, let's say. And I feel that I'm part of those masses. That if I didn't have that, if I was dependent on reaching the summit and staying only at the summit, that's a really small peak. And it's a precarious one, man.

you know, that then, then you're struggling all the time to just be whatever, you know, be at all. Yeah.

And so being able to make things affordable and recognize the diversity of needs that the general public has, that the masses have for this. And of course, the masses for classical guitar is a very small mass. But to be able to offer the pleasure and inspiration and satisfaction of guitar playing the same way that it's given to me,

you know, you can't just, you know, every piece is not going to be your masterpiece. You know, every piece is not David or the Mona Lisa, you know, it's not that way. And I'm not making guitars for museums. You know, like I don't think Torres was making guitars for museums. He was making it for the people around him. Some were wealthy, many weren't. And, uh, and, and so I feel kind of the same way now. Um,

you know early earlier i would really you know i'd make a guitar and i'd have it and it's like oh boy this is the best guitar i've ever made then you go and stand backstage you know and try to get somebody to play it and and try to get them to adopt it as a you know whatever is their favorite or sponsor taking it on stage and stuff and i i you know the the deal is

Probably for any business, but especially for this one, which has to cover a lot of territory, is showing up. You just got to show up, whether it's at a concert, whether it's at a masterclass, a school or, you know, whatever, just friends that you show up and things happen. If you don't show up, nothing happens.

And so, you know, a lot has been about going to the GFA and the NAMM show and other local guitar festivals and stuff. And you make relationships. The relationships are what happens.

and with shared values, shared interests, then that can lead to business. But the business model of getting it out of my own Geppetto studio, you know, in the woods behind my house, that involved, you know, embracing business as a development, in a sense. And so when I first started doing that, I actually went to Mexico and I worked in Paracho and set up a shop with

I don't know, half a dozen guys there and worked for many years. And we started producing guitars and, you know, mass meaning like maybe 20 a month or something. And then, then you got to go out and sell them.

And that's, so then I always said, you know, I'll be the artist, but I don't want to be the salesman. I don't want to be my own agent. I kept waiting for, or hoping, or, you know, someone would pick you up. Like, like, yeah, somebody is going to just, you know, recognize my beauty and my genius and carry it on the road for me. And I just have to stay in the clouds the way I wanted to be. Well, and it happened, you know, there was little teases of that, but,

But, you know, on a realistic, successful level, I gradually said, well, while I'm waiting for that, you know, I'm going to get a business card. I'm going to get a phone number. I'm going to, you know, do these things. And, you know, you wait long enough and you say, well, hell, I guess I just did it, you know. And I never wanted to be involved in sales. That's, you know, it's kind of repugnant in a way of having to work

huckster things, you know, or pitch or brag about yourself or whatever, you know, but, uh, you know, nobody's going to do it for you. And, you know, once in a 10,000 times, maybe, but, uh,

that wasn't the path. And I recognized that at some point and slid in there. Okay, well, business is business. Now business comes and goes, it goes up and down. And so you'll have really strong times and you think, man, I'm on the top of the world. And then all of a sudden the wind stops blowing and you're going, well, wait a minute, you know, is this the last, is this the last week that I'm going to be in business? You know?

And then it picks up again. It's been that, that way for, you know, for some on a survival level. Yes, it has. And, uh, and you say, man, I think it's over, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, the phone starts ringing again. And, um,

That can drive you insane. I think that that right there is enough to sort of just like send me to heaven, Grave. It's driving me insane because I'll have like this summer where, oh, everything's happening. And then the next three years, I'm just like sitting here, you know, playing at local libraries. It's unbelievable, which is nothing against the local libraries. And like you're saying, there is a sort of like

you know it's it seems to be about finding things to do with all the time that you have regardless of absolutely what is given to you so that that to me has been sort of the most important thing for me to adopt and I think for a lot of people who are who are still at still at it, you know into their forties and fifties sixties whatever. I'm 75 7, you're 75, yeah, the 7, you guys can't see this guy but

full head of hair does not look 75. yeah well i mean i i know i am actually i know others say i'm in new york i know other 75 year olds that look like i i don't i'm still the oldest guy in the room most places i go you know that's good to stay that way and of course too many of our colleagues are dropping like flies you know it's really um

it's unnerving for our loss. You know, I mean, when I drop like a fly, well, I won't care, but you know, it's who's left behind that is going, wow, you know, this is happening fast. And you know, I don't dwell on that, but I, I recognize that that every day and every minute counts, you know, the this was, this was the big gift of the pandemic for me.

And I loved it. I loved being stopped in my tracks. Yeah, well, everybody else was now if I got stopped in my tracks and everybody else is still trotting, I would have been really, you know, jealous or, you know, fear of missing out would have taken over and taken hold. But it that pause

of the rat race, you know, with all of the agony and, you know, tragedy that came with for a lot of people. It didn't happen. That was not the case for me. It just gave me a moment and I stopped what I was doing and started doing what I'd wanted to do for such a long time and had been putting off for like 50 years is composing.

And so I started just with, I mean, I'd had ideas banging around my head and through my fingers for so many years says, I'm going to get to it. I'm going to get to it. I've got to get to it. And that was the opportunity for me to just go, okay,

now's the time start. And so since that time, and especially, you know, for about three or four years, just writing, composing all the time and working it out and learning that craft is to the degree that I have, um, and publishing it and getting it played and all of this stuff became, you know, it's, it's a pre re

pre-retirement activity. I can't call it a career or a job because there's just no money in it at all. But it's an expense, not an income. But it's satisfying just, again, you know, going back to the vision. It's like, well, you know, make it happen. Do what you have to do to make that happen. And so then that's been a preoccupation with me for the last four years, five years. And it's great. I love it.

Yeah. I mean, it's a new craft and the, the craft of composition does take, you know, it, there is sort of a spirit of the, you know, like you said, the working, whatever the, the, the working class, the working man, uh, you know, that, that goes into composition. It feels, you know, you build something, you get something, you print it out and you can, you can hold it in your hands and you can give it to other people. You could dedicate it. It's, it's really is something that, uh,

that's special in that way that I see as akin to what you've been doing as a builder. It's a craft. It's a craft and you learn from it and you make mistakes and you can break a composition very easily. You can compose yourself into a corner as I'm sure you can do when you're being experimental with a guitar design or something like that. You can just go like, oh my God, what have I done?

you know, all these things and then you have to compose your way out of it. So I can imagine how that would be more attractive to you than, than playing, performing, you know, I can see that composition and guitar making would be for me like way more, um,

conducive to each other. Yeah, I see what you mean. You know, through the whole period, I mean, I started out as a player, I started out playing, you know, I had no context, I was teaching myself. And basically, all of the stuff that I've done, I've teached myself, I mean, I've stolen from the right places. And, you know, picked up advice along the way, but never had, like, you never had, like, collegiate sort of training on the guitar, like that? No.

But I did have enough master classes to have to rebuild my technique two or three times, you know, over a 10-year period until I kind of settled on what I got, which I still got. That's the funny thing. So all the time along I've been playing, and it's been from concert work to cafe work to, you know, casuals and all of that stuff. Now I'm playing more in ensembles now. I'm doing a bunch of ensemble stuff.

performances in the area over the next two weeks. It's got schedules bonkers. And that usually includes some solo work. And the only solo stuff that I'm doing now is my own stuff. Yep. I've forgotten...

Asturias I've forgotten the record of Seattle for I sworn off the low you know I know or it's just like I don't have time for that because I've got my own stuff that I've got a lift and scattered, you know, and that's the same but I the same way I'm a composer guitarist this is this is yeah, there's other people doing it too by the way that there's no need immediate need imminent threat of the levels not being performed in concert. That's right.

i mean it's hard for me to go to concerts because it's like oh man not this again dude that has been my thing for 20 years i'm 47 i've been in new york and i go to very few classical guitar concerts and i hate saying that on air but it's just true and it is because like um but that's it's it's kind of because every once in a while not every once in a while but often when i go maybe half the time i'll be like

That was great. I'm so, so glad I went. But it is half the time. It's not all the time. It's not most of the time. It's half the time. Half the time, I'm just like, just trudging through somebody's, you know, self-justification. I don't know. So I... Be careful, though. Be careful. Well, you're a businessman, so you know what to say and what not to say. But as far as, you know...

That's really great that you have the composition and the performances. Just as a sidebar, go ahead. That's the thing is that I don't actually recognize, I mean, I don't even feel the barrier, some sort of fence between playing, building, and composing. I don't.

I don't feel that those are distinct, you know. I just see the weave between them. And, you know, I'm disappointed that more players are not taking the leap or just the risk of composing. I don't understand how you cannot do it in some ways, you know, because the guitar is so seductive.

You know, it just, it draws you in. And that has not changed.

Well, it's changed in that it just keeps seeming more so to me. Yeah, I mean, for me, one of the things that made me kind of go into composition was realizing that every time I picked up the guitar, I noodled. Every single time. That's the first thing I did. The first thing I did wasn't play Scarlatti. The first thing I did wasn't play a scale even or a 120 Giuliani thing. It was always noodling.

Which means that there was like this, there was a composer in there getting it, trying to get out. And I can't imagine that it's not that way for, for most players that they don't pick up the guitar and do that sort of slur that they always do in the middle of the neck, that just sort of thing that you do as a creative person, when you get a tool to play with.

especially tools that we're playing with, which are these $10,000 beautiful instruments. You just want to play that sweet sounding part of it. So there has to be something in somebody trying to get, I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah. And when I first started playing, first I did noodle. But I was a keyboard player before guitar. And then I started saying, well, there's all this Bach and that's worth playing.

I wasn't convinced about much of the rest of the literature. And we don't have Beethoven, we don't have Mozart, we don't, well, we do have Scarlatti now, and Bach. But I wasn't convinced about the rest of, you know, the sort of standard guitar literature. There were moments that were wonderful, but the whole picture didn't really draw me in. But Bach did. And so I spent, like, my early 20s playing Bach,

studying Bach, you know, for better or for worse, I was doing it on my own. I didn't have somebody to tell me, you know, I sounded bad or good or anything, but I did, uh, do that and, and, and noodled and, and even, you know, put some of the noodling together back in my twenties. And then, uh, and I thought, well, you know, playing, playing guitar is interesting, but I bet building would make me a better guitar player.

I thought, you know, knowing the instrument from the inside out was, it's probably kind of a stoner idea, you know? It sounds like a stoner idea. It's like...

it's like growing your own vegetables you know or something you know and then you'll lose all that weight because you grew them and you understood them right yeah yeah so you understand the vegetables when you're steaming them or you understand the bacon when you're slaughtering your pig right you gotta slide in the pig so that was kind of what my attitude towards guitar building was i gotta i gotta raise this pig so i can slaughter it and play it

And, you know, like I say, that's a pretty 70s kind of, you know, thing. Oh, yeah. But so that's how that came about. Now, I was writing, and nobody told me not to. I didn't ask permission for anybody. I was composing, and I wrote some stuff back then, and this is in the 70s. And then, you know, what was kind of crazy is I got a job at –

teaching at a university even though i didn't have any academic credentials at all but it was a liberal time you know it's like well you've got you know professional qualifications or something you know experience professional experience that's how they called it so i got a job for about four years teaching at uh at uc santa cruz and uh teaching guitar or teaching guitar yeah just teaching guitar and then uh

So then I was building up faculty recitals and stuff, and so I was starting to play the repertoire, and the repertoire I had to teach, because I just couldn't be teaching my own stuff. So I abandoned the composing thing, because I was...

learning more about what other composers had done by doing all that repertoire, but I drifted away from composing partly because I had a bit of an inferiority complex about it or just like, I think I'm, you know, getting redundant. Well, there's an entire, there's an entire department. Yeah, and I wasn't allowed in that department. No, we're not allowed over there. We're not supposed to be anywhere near them. They're supposed to approach us and we're supposed to say like, I might play your piece.

I think he wrote without having any understanding of the guitar whatsoever. And I think that kind of comes back down to the rep that you're talking about is that sort of Segovia requisitioned repertoire, like the taroba and stuff like that, which my understanding is that he was very adamant about it not being too idiomatic. So the idea being that the composers are sitting there composing these things on pianos.

you know, and or whatever, and then sort of juxtaposing those ideas under the guitar. And I can understand how you would feel in the 70s and 80s, or just the 70s, let's say, when you're starting about this journey, that the compositions didn't have, reflect the same sort of contrapuntal,

and compositional integrity that is in the pieces by Bach, or in some cases, but I would also consider it limited by Scarlatti. I can see how that would be sort of an issue. And now we understand that we do have to start composing. As guitarists, we have to be, and there's a lot more composers now than there were, I would say, ever before.

You know, I started this show in 2012 and there were no there was nobody composing zero, like almost nobody composed. There was like Ben Verdery, you know, and then somebody would write like a piece of music. Right. But it's like now there's a lot more people that I'm being approached by in particular that are like in their early 30s that are like straight up.

composers that play the guitar, that play their own pieces on the guitar. Yeah, well, there's a sort of a stigma against that, and especially in academic areas that, you know, I don't know why it's there, you know. And I'm not, the reason I didn't get any academic anything is because I'm just so impatient, and I can't sit in classes. I couldn't make those eight in the morning classes. It's not, I can't do it.

You know, I just don't have that temperament. So I just do it all myself and then figure it out. But it's, you know, it's a personal journey. And it's kind of funny to be in a situation like, well, I'm a builder, I'm a player, I'm a composer.

I don't know anybody else that's doing that, and I don't care. You know, okay, we don't have enough time to care. So moving on a little bit here, because we have about 10 more minutes, but I just wanted to check in with you about guitar building.

and sort of let's just start with a couple of your models. Would you mind going over that and sort of your approach, your idea there? Is that okay? Does that sound like a good? Yeah, sure. So, you know, it's basically for a number of years what I built was kind of focused on was what I called the Master Series. And it was in a way, it was in my second era of guitar building that started in the early 90s. And I said, well, you know, what's my hook?

What do I got? You know, nobody knows me. But what can I do? And I started building copies because there was some literature coming out of plans of instruments and I started to have access of old instrument to some old instruments.

like Flater and Hauser and Torres and Rodriguez and various things that the established builders, the historic builders, the dead builders that had had their names, you know, enshrined. And so I built, I went kind of methodically about building what I call the master series. And this was a marketing concept as much as anything of making as dedicated a replicas as I could counterfeits.

of these things and learning what I could from them. And from going through that process of seeing instruments, studying and playing them, hearing them, looking at the plans, and then trying to duplicate that as best as I could, whether it made sense or not. Because there was a lot of things, details of the various builders that I built, say, why is he doing this? You know, this is stupid. This is too difficult to wear. It's not, doesn't make sense. But anyway,

Yeah. And so, so that was sort of my graduate study in guitar building self, you know, self curriculum graduate study. And, uh,

And, and then just like the relationship between performing and composing, I started to have my own ideas. I know I already have my own ideas of the way to put things together. I don't know if I ever had a completely original idea. You know that something sparked something or it was either stolen or sublimated somehow or another. And but it's how you recombine them. You

You know, it's how you set the agenda for what's important. You know, what's important in relation to sound? You know, do you want a boomy bass? Do you want a bright, you know, steely sound? What about playability? You know, the playability, how important is that? You know, do you want to have to, you know, do you want a macho playability or do you want a...

you know, svelte and elegant playability, all of these things. It's like, well, I was assimilating, started assimilating that stuff for my own satisfaction and not doing the copies anymore. Now, what that has evolved into, if you go to what the current state of evolution is in my work, whereas the only, now the only

very traditional guitar that we regularly produce out of my shop is a Torres copy. And I was really deeply moved by not only Torres work, you know, by the guitars themselves, but by his situation where he basically assimilated what was going on around him in Europe and put it together in a recipe that was just, you know, dominated for 100 years after that.

Now, the characteristics of the guitars that I'm building are, you know, the double top was one of the first things

transitions. And I did that in 2000. Now I didn't invent a double top, but I got some clues about the other guys, Domin and oh, guy in Kansas. And so, you know, a few people that were doing it and got started and figured out my own way to do that. Putting the sound ports in, that was another thing that was like, what are you doing? You know, you're not supposed to do that.

putting a truss rod in that was I took so much crap for that in the first place. But those, you know, are various things for various reasons, men elevated fingerboard and then I got in and that became what was my signature model for a few, you know, up till this day, actually. But then I started working with the ergonomics. And I got sort of teased by because I had my own shoulder and neck problems from playing and

somebody else who I guess I won't name but had him and another famous guitar player was having his problems I said maybe we can do something about this by changing the way the body is built and the

And, and then, you know, that's how you got that curve, that curve that you have adopted into the body is tapered a little bit in a vertical way. You know, it's, it's a little narrower at the top where it means so it leans back a little bit. So you don't have to reach over and look at the front, don't have to reach around like that. It's not about the visuals. It's about the posture. It's about the shoulder posture.

posture. I don't look at the fingerboard. Okay. You're talking about that thing on the bust that you've that is the buttock on the hip, let's say the buttocks in the back. It is in the front. Yeah, it's got it's an armrest, you know, and it and it changes the way you hold the instrument. And like, oh, well, this is better.

It's better. And it's, and now I feel like a regular guitar, it's like, man, how do you hold onto this thing? You know, pretty hard. And, uh, and I, uh, and then, you know, in the last few years, I've not exclusively done it, but I I've really evolved with the true temperament fretting system. And that's, that's the thing that's the, that's sort of the most sort of

discombobulating for when you first see it and stuff, but it brings the guitar so much better in tune. And so, and I love, I've got a pretty good ear and I'm tolerant

but I am also appreciative of the fineness of tuning of that. So I'm tolerant of normal guitars, but I can live with that. And I did live with him for how many decades, but then this intonation system is so much more beautiful and it's not some weird mode or, you know, just intonation or anything. It's just better, more equal, equal temperament. Yeah. So it does, you know, stay in tune all the way up the neck.

and you know, through key changes and all this. And so, so these are things that have been just sort of added on kind of one at a time over whatever 30 year period. And, and so it leads me to where my state of the art is now I've kept those earlier iterations available.

Because all of this not everybody wants all this stuff, you know, and that's something that Maybe you know, maybe I've gone too far for the public's tolerance level But

You know, and some people really appreciated it. Some people was like, well, it's threatening, you know, it's like, ah. Well, the true temperament to me, you know, when I first saw, I've seen it before, but I think the first time I saw somebody really good doing it was Matt Grigich played a Bach album on one. Okay. And that sort of, I was like, oh, okay, that's cool. That's a player that I sort of trust. That's, you know, something like that.

But they are, it does change in the way that sound ports did many years ago. It does fundamentally change the sort of design of the guitar. And I also think that, you know, like we were talking about the bust cutaway that you're incorporating that also, but you know, like the true temperament is really sort of like,

it's, it's not something that I dislike. It's just something that is so funky on the guitar. That's something that like the rock and jazz guys don't do. This is like, this is way out there. You know, they're bending notes all the time. They don't need it. Cause they're bending notes. You know, it's part of that playing. And so being in tune is something that is plagued my playing every single concert. I'm tuning what? Like seven times. Like, that's not cool. Come on. Well, and, and, and,

You mean for different pieces or different keys? Yeah, no, I'm just constantly having to retune my guitar. I'm constantly playing it. I'm practicing. It's like I'll play a piece, I'll get halfway through, I'll be like, ah, shit, something's wrong here. And I just have to either ignore it or retune my guitar. And that happens because the temperature changes and stuff too. You know, you walk out on stage and if you've got stage lights, your G-string's going to go sharp in the first 40 seconds. And you've got to just plan for that. So you've got to be able to reach up and tune that. And that's, you know, that's

having to tune the instrument regardless is part of the environment of the delicacy of a guitar because it fluctuates it doesn't stay in tune for a week no way it doesn't even stay in tune for 10 minutes uh if you're changing temperatures yeah you know but but

But the thing is, is getting it to be truly in tune in the first place. That's something that hasn't happened before. And I sit in audiences sometimes and I watch even really super professional players and they start playing and you know, the B string's flat or something and I want to go up and then they're starting to tune all the other strings to, you know, it's like, come on, you know, I want to go up and say, give me that thing. You know, I want to do it for you, you know.

I had the worst experience in December. I played a concert and it wasn't like there was a ton of people there, but I got compensated well. And it was like a really sort of like important concert to some people and myself included. And the week leading up to it, I thought I had lost my hearing. Everything was out of tune.

So I was just like going like something's wrong with me. And my boss said he had a similar experience where he had a ring in his ear and he thought everything was flat. And he's in he's in, you know, Broadway pit musician. And he said he went through this and I thought like, oh, God. So I made an appointment with an ear doctor, all this stuff. I got through the concert. I played the concert.

And I played really well, but I was, I know I was like really out of tune. And so I got done and everybody's like, good job. I was like, thank you so much. I go, I was out of tune. No, you weren't out of tune, you know, but they don't know or they don't care or they don't want to tell me. And then I get home and I realized I've my nuts on backwards. I, my nut fell off.

It was on backwards and I turned it around. I was in tune again. Talk about user error. So everybody be on the lookout. I don't think I've told anybody that on the show yet, but please, this is a PSA. Like just check your nut. If that's how you check it out and make sure it's on. Right.

Anyway, yeah, I mean, that is about all the time we have, but is there something else that you really wanted to share before we go? You know, I'm... No, it's just a lifestyle commitment, and, you know, I never... Even when I've been teaching guitar building classes and stuff, I never think of it as career, you know? This is not career. It's something...

It's something just really organic, like eating and exercise and, you know, family. Right. It's not... I know that...

you know, that's an uneasy place to be. But to me, that's what it is. And it's so satisfying. And the crazy thing is that I feel like I could, I've got enough groundwork for another 50 years of work in each of those aspects of it. I don't feel like I'm anywhere near exhausting it. I'm kind of exhausted with business.

uh yeah it sounds like it sounds like you don't want to travel do that stuff and then traveling and and keeping track and being responsible for all the finances and all of that stuff i know at this point it's like man you know where's that exit from that but as far as the activities of building playing uh

you know, composing and now doing that in the context of much more ensemble work as opposed to just solo, you know, you're alone on stage. Working with other musicians is what I've been doing for the last couple years really a lot more and that is very valuable whether it's on a really basic level or in a much more complicated level. It's like that inner human

functioning that guitarists tend to avoid classical guitars is, is really gratifying. It is. It certainly is. And especially if you're, you know, you must've met those people through UC Santa Cruz too. I mean, cause I was going to say like, how did you find your ensemble? Because it is sort of difficult to find, um,

Well, that's what I found over here. Yeah, that's true. But I mean, it can be just somebody else that you're playing a duo with, you know, but yeah, I'm in an ensemble class at the junior college here, you know, and I'm going at this with people that are like first year players and other people that have been playing for 30 years, you know? And, and so that's, but it's like sometimes in going back and playing in an ensemble, that's doing basically, you know, really simple, uh,

you know, four part arrangements or something, say, play well, listen to your dynamics, listen to everybody else's attack, listen to everybody's dynamics, all of that stuff on the most fundamental level. It's a really good place to be for personal musical growth. Yeah. I think, I think when people talk about the benefits of music, like when they talk about it from, from, you know, an outside, uh,

uh civilian standpoint when they talk about the benefits of music often they are talking about the benefits of music with other people yeah the social benefits of it inside just sort of like the neurological benefits of exactly working with other people they aren't necessarily talking about just practicing makes you a smarter person but definitely being able to communicate

with people on that level doing robotos timing, robotos with people just on a natural level, just it really does take it to a different plane of existence. Yeah, I think, you know, in some ways on, you know, super hyper professional career in playing is a dwindling, it's a dwindling window. But the playing of your environment of your

your human reach and sharing that with people that's just as important and it's it's what most of us have access to most of us don't have access to the pinnacle of of uh star performance yeah you know we're all b-listers it's nothing wrong with being a b-lister you hear that you hear that

And that is true because we can't yeah, it's it's at some point not some point but it's that's right. There's too many of us.

to have we can't all be stuck all of us feeling bad because we're not internet. Yeah, that's way too many of us like it's like there's a thousand of us in this city alone right now going like why am I not being featured on the New York classical guitar society. All this is you have to be more comfortable and just the process and this is what we do and it's a way of life it is

It is different from the way other people live and we have to defend it, you know? Yeah. Well, okay. I hope we made everybody feel better. Well, Kenny, thanks so much for joining me. It was a pleasure getting to talk to you and getting to know you after, you know, knowing your name and your instruments for so long. Yeah. Great to talk to you.

That does it for my time with Kenny. I hope you enjoyed it. For more information about his wonderful instruments, visit hillguitar.com and always go to brettwilliamsmusic.com slash support to support the show or you can contact me, brett at brettwilliamsmusic.com

to advertise or just tell me how you're doing. Okay. Brett at brettwilliamsmusic.com. I will see you guys next time. Thanks so much for joining us. Remember to visit savageclassical.com, S-A-V-A-G-E classical.com. And I will see you guys next time.