PLANTS | NSEA | BALANCE OF THE NATURAL WORLD
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Young and Indigenous Podcast is an outlet for people to know about Indigenous knowledge, storytelling, and history. Through our youthful journeys as Indigenous people, young people, and elders share their experiences with us. Without them, we wouldn't be able to do this. Come listen to Plants, a podcast series featuring many different plant knowledge keepers with diverse perspectives and plant philosophies.

A series brought to you by Children of the Setting Sun Productions and Cultural Survival Youth Fellow Opportunities. Welcome to Young and Indigenous Podcast. I'm here with James and Daryl from Nooksack Salmon Enhancement Association, otherwise known as NC. Yeah, thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, if you can, James, can you introduce yourself? Yep, yeah, sure. My name is James Vandervoort.

I was born in Hawaii, grew up in Bothell area, and then came up here to go to Western, got my environmental science degree. Never really left, as the story goes in Bellingham. Never really left. I think currently live in Ferndale. And yeah, just been enjoying staying up here. There's a lot more trees up here than there are in Bothell.

That was the hard part to go to not want to leave. Yes, thank you. And Daryl? I think mine's older but a little similar. I got here, got stuck. Stuck's not the right word. I grew up in Vancouver, British Columbia. It's kind of splitting time between Vancouver, British Columbia and Galliano Island, one of the Gulf Islands.

And I came to Western and got my bachelor's in geology. And then I did a fair bit of traveling. I worked in forestry for about 10 years. And then I came back and got my master's in aquatic ecology. And while I was doing that, I did an internship at NC. And here I am 20, almost 29 years later. So timing is everything. I managed to get a job doing what I love in my field.

So it's been a great run. Yeah, yeah, that's quite some time. I was actually out in the Gulf Islands this summer and it was really incredible. It's so beautiful. Yeah, it is. And I was there, unfortunately, when it was smoky, but when we were sailing around, the smoke was kind of like beautiful. Yeah, it makes for a good sunset. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, so you both work for Nooksack Salmon Enhancement Association. It sounds like James will be stepping in for Darryl once you make a slowly exit. Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about NC? Yeah, so our mission is to educate, inspire, and engage the community to take action to keep wild salmon here for future generations. And I think what is unique about NC Wild

James mentioned earlier, we are a 501c3 nonprofit. We are one of 14 regional fisheries enhancement groups under the umbrella of Department of Fish and Wildlife. And they were formed back in 1991. And the goal would be to involve community in salmon habitat recovery and salmon recovery in general. We've grown quite a bit over the years. I think

I guess what I found most impressive about NC is they really believe in community. They really believe that without the community support, we're not going to restore salmon runs. They really believe in education. We have a large education program that goes into, I believe, 30 schools in Whatcom County.

and does different programs. We really try and involve any landowner we work with or community members in project activities so they feel a sense of accomplishment or stewardship. I have been the project manager here, I guess, for a little over 25 years and I would manage both our in-stream projects and our riparian projects.

And this year we decided to divide that up with myself retiring. James is now going to be the new riparian project manager. And then Eli, I believe you met earlier. He's our in-stream project manager. It doesn't mean there won't be a little bit of overlap and sharing, you know, to cover each other. But we just figure with the amount of work we're doing, it is much more efficient if we separate those two.

Yeah. I've captured all of it. I don't have much to add there. Yeah, that's amazing. And James, are you excited to take on this role? Yeah, very excited. A little scared. Intimidated maybe is more the word. He's been doing this for so long that they're really big shoes to fill. That's why I'm...

Really stoked that I have Eli as a partner to split it up a little bit. He definitely has a better grasp of the in-stream than I do and I've really, you know, in my time as the Washington Conservation Corps supervisor with the crew that's contracted to NC and Whatcom County, I've really been more focused on the riparian planting projects. Excuse me. So it is a more natural kind of progression for me. But yeah, very excited. There's

a lot to fill in, but it'll be, it'll be fun. Yeah, that's wonderful. And yeah, what a testament to your greatness, Daryl, as a project manager here for, you know, almost 30 years and,

to, you know, to need two people to step in and fill your place like, wow, that's really incredible. And James, I'm sure, you know, as having Darrell as a teacher, you're going to step in and make lasting impacts here on this environment and help make this place a better, better place for all of us, all community members. Thanks. Definitely going to try.

So what kind of relationship have you developed with the plants, either through your work, personal relationships, or even spiritual? Yeah, I think, you know, for me,

the work side of it is just that daily, like there's such a huge aspect of what we're doing. I've, you know, I've made jokes before that I'm not here for the salmon. I'm here for the plants. Um, which is more of just a personal thing. I, I, there's huge benefit to salmon. I don't have anything against them. I just have always been more of a plant person. Um,

So I'm often taking breaks, like walking in our nursery, just checking out the young ones that we've got, or anytime I'm out at a site, I'm kind of looking upwards, just seeing what the plants, what the trees look like. So for work, it is just there, our main tool for improving the salmon habitat, improving or completing our restoration projects on damaged creeks and streams. And on a more personal level, I wouldn't say...

I'm the most spiritual person, but there's definitely always been a connection at least. I was out of the site earlier this year and it was kind of most of the time when I'm on a site, it doesn't really, it's not a forest. I'm there because it needs me or it needs NC to rehabilitate it, to get it back to some more natural form. And I was walking through the invasive weeds, walking through the forest,

disturbed areas and I kind of looked up and just came along this section of creek that beautiful tall cedar trees, gorgeous dogfurs everywhere. And it really just kind of took me back to when I was a kid. It took me back to when my brother and I would just go out and play in the creek behind the house or we were exploring the forest and there was just something

something so comfortable feeling about it and I think that's kind of what brings it back to me. It just it feels good to be out in the trees. Yeah, what an answer. Yeah, I know I really concur. I think I grew up doing a lot of fishing, a lot of hiking, a lot of sailing on the water and

I know we're talking about plants, but I feel equal with water. Like being on the water, I instantly feel better. But walking in a forest, as James said, I don't feel myself...

very spiritual person, but I feel somewhat spiritual when I'm walking through a forest. I mean I feel some connection to it. I see the beauty of it. I'm inspired by it. I'm amazed by it and yeah, I don't know say if it was calm or peace. I just always feel better in that in those two environments than I do necessarily in the urban or built environment. Yeah, I

It sounds like you both have a connection to plants, like a deeper connection to plants than just work related, you know. You almost have like a level of respect for plants because you know so much about them and what they do. Do you think the rest of the world or the rest of the community should respect and admire plants at that level?

Definitely. Yeah, the easy answer is yes. Absolutely. There'd be a lot that kind of benefits from that, Ben. Yeah, well, I mean, other than just, again, the beauty and the joy of being in those environments. I mean, plants are what make our world our world. No plants, no people, no other species, no nothing. So, yeah, I definitely believe people should feel a strong connection to plants because without them, we're not here.

And speaking of people and global issues, climate change has been really impactful lately. Can you talk about how climate change and habitat loss affect plant populations in this area? And could you give some examples? Yeah, I mean there's so many different factors that come into this question, right?

For me, the one that really is so prevalent is just seeing the negative effects of like obviously a warming climate, longer droughts in the summers. A lot of our plants and our trees are struggling and that's something we've noticed on our restoration sites, whether that's young plants that we put in the ground or that some of our older ones that we go back to. There's definitely that and what we're kind of seeing is

there is that negative effect for the native plants and then there's often this positive effect that's created for invasive species where they're either more adaptable or more opportunistic or they're just from somewhere that has a climate more similar to this and it seems that some of them are kind of increasing where the natives are falling out. So it's kind of working against us there, right? But

That's definitely an area that we're watching. And then we do see some areas that along with, I guess what's coming with climate change is a higher susceptibility to invasive pests and diseases that are also affecting the plants that we're working with on our sites. Yeah, I don't think I have a lot to add to that. I definitely agree with James. We're seeing a lot more stress amongst plants, particularly western red cedar, pineapples.

I can't justify this with any scientific quotes, but we've seen a lot of stunting of our Sitka spruce with the pine weevil. And I have heard people anecdotally say that if we had a colder, longer cold periods during the winter, that would set those populations back. So perhaps as climate is warming, as James mentioned, other pests get a chance to get in and wreak some havoc.

Wow. More shade. That's what we need. More shade. It seems that we're left with these

localized stands of tree populations that are surviving. They're kind of, you know, the survivors, but then there are these big gaps and we're seeing islands of these plant communities, which one is kind of spreading them out. And as the invasives fill in those gaps, it's harder for that natural revegetation to come back, right? It's harder for the natives to have their seeds take and fill in and can make these long contiguous forests or big

big stretches of habitat. I think that's the other thing that kind of pops up to me that we're seeing on the ground. Yeah, well, that's a major problem, it sounds like, for our community and really all ecosystems as climate change progresses and potentially worsens.

Can you talk about how conservation might help mitigate impacts of climate change on certain ecosystems and what roles plants play in these strategies? Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about this when James was talking about these isolated islands. It's very important to have those islands conserved and then try, he mentioned, become more contiguous.

I think now probably more important than ever is to build ecosystem resilience, restore natural processes, provide more shade, provide refugia, if I'm using the right word, store carbon. Now more than ever it is important that we restore as much habitat and conserve as much habitat as possible.

because the species depend on that habitat are gonna need every chance they can get. That's my short answer. - Yeah, that kinda sums it up for me too. I mean, the plants in themselves, the hard part is that there's a time difference, right? Like the plants that we put in the ground now

They're helping in smaller ways. They might be helping with erosion control on a bank as we're seeing flooding get bigger or more frequent. They're helping to provide shade within the first 10 to 30 years, right, depending on the species and how big the river or stream system is. The issue to me is that to really get that carbon sequestration, we need large trees, which we can't plant those right now, right? That takes a larger amount of time.

But I think we can't stop, right? We got to keep doing it. And then every tree in the ground is helping that much more. Well, it almost sounds like y'all are planting now, planting seeds for the future. It almost relates to what indigenous people refer to as saving or sustaining for the seventh generation when we talk about saving.

planting now to eventually see full-grown trees. I mean, we're talking past our own lifetimes here. - Right. - And that's really, really neat to kind of hear that. - I love that, seven generations. That way we always seem to, "We gotta get this done, gotta get this done." We gotta get it done for those people. It doesn't really matter. We just gotta keep planting. - Yep.

What are some of the biggest challenges you face when managing conservation efforts? I guess I would say landowner willingness is probably the number one. I mean, you can't restore a creek if a landowner won't let you on the property to do it. Second one would be long-term funding. You know, as a non-profit we rely on a lot of soft funding. We write a lot of grant applications and sadly

Grantors seem to expect you to get a lot done in a very short period of time. And I think what we've learned over the years, the most important thing is site preparation, like doing the appropriate site prep so that your planting can survive and thrive. And then it doesn't just stop at the planting. You've got to go back and maintain and monitor. And on some sites, we feel probably it'd be best if we stayed on it for about 10 years. It would become less frequent as the years go out.

but we won't even start a project if we can't maintain and monitor it for a minimum of four years. So if all your grants say, "Well, we want you to plant a forest and you've got a year," it doesn't really work. It's pretty rare where you find a grant that will go beyond two years.

There are some sources coming up and we're hopeful that we can tap into those that would be as long as five and we feel minimum of five would be necessary. So I think those would be the two biggest ones. I think landowner willingness, long-term funding. This kind of feeds back into landowner willingness. I guess it's prioritization. You may have a priority of what you want to do, but then again, without the landowner willingness, you don't have the opportunity. So the most important places you feel you should be working on

you might not necessarily be able to work there. Though I think it'll get addressed in some of your future questions. I think time's on our side. We'll wear people down. Get them to love plants as much as us. You were talking earlier about, James, about plant availability. Resources in general, I think, is...

somewhat becoming an issue. It's the funding and the availability of funding to get, you know, there's how many projects that each agency wants to do in every county. Like for us, there's at least six, seven big players in restoration, probably more. But there's finite amounts of money, right? And that's where we really see those issues of

who gets the resources for how long, for what purpose, right? And that's where I think we're pretty lucky in this region. We work with the other entities, work with the tribes, local governments, other restoration groups, and prioritize as a group. I mean, there's still that, like, this is what we need to get our things done, but we play really well together and we're able to kind of play off of each other, fit into different areas in the region, right?

And so there's a sharing of resources, but it would be great if the pools were bigger. And like Darrell was saying, it's that timing. I think if you think about taking a site that's just all invasive species, no cover for the creek, no shade, no habitat, and then turning that into a really nice looking project and you can have an amazing before and after, funders will jump on that.

when we show a picture of a site that we planted 10 years ago that has some invasives, that has some cover, so it's not that complete like 0% quality for salmon.

It's harder to fund that for us to go back and continue doing maintenance or remove things that need to be removed, throw in like a few plants just to beef it up, add in some diversity. Those are the ones that are harder to fund for us. And I think there's still value to that, right? Like we're saying, it's planting for the future. If we're ending up with these stands of trees that are just these monoculture trees,

it needs that biodiversity to come back into it. And that's one of the areas that we could use some improvement or some growth on. Yeah, it's interesting to think about, you know,

the grants especially being so short term, especially when managing something that is literally creating life and reinstilling life in our own ecosystem. You wouldn't expect it to be a short term project, nor does it even sound like it. So the fact that we're not looking at this in a holistic matter in terms of philanthropy and funding

Yeah, I think that would be a great campaign avenue to go down one day. Maybe just like, we'll have to get you to make us a nice film that we can take. I think it may get there. I think part of it is we've got our blinders on when there are so many areas that have that 0% habitat and have so much room for improvement.

I can kind of see where that's the flashy thing to do, right? But as we continue working at this, as everyone continues working at this, and that ratio changes to where there is more of an abundance of older sites that need help, maybe that'll change more naturally. Awesome. Well, do you have any solutions to offer to the community?

slow down the population growing. I don't have a solution to that. That's the problem. Let's see if that's not a solution. I have lived here a long time, and I guess what kind of, well, it doesn't scare me. It angers me sometimes the amount of sprawl

The city is definitely growing, you know, and other parts, other cities in the county are growing. And I guess for Bellingham in particular, I think there's so much opportunity for infill without spreading out into, you know, wetlands and forested areas. So I guess I would, yeah, I'd try and focus on better zoning to try and maintain. We talked about, you know, trying to conserve certain areas that are very important to

I do think Bellingham is great in that we have a pretty good trail system and people are always, there's the Greenways Levy, you know, to have trail and conserve areas.

has been funded, I think, almost every time it's been proposed. So I really hope that continues. I really believe that if you have these little pocket of areas, we said before it should be contiguous, but in a city, maybe that might not be possible. There is a lot of work on Whatcom Creek to make it contiguous. But if you give people the opportunity to get out into those spaces, then they value them more, then they probably would speak for them more. So yeah, I guess just things they could do would be

less development and more appropriate development, getting people into nature as fast as possible without getting in your car. Yeah, I think the availability, you know, growing up in Bothell, every like greater Seattle area, living up here is drastically different. Down there it was quite a bit of a drive. I mean, we'd have parks and things, right? But it wasn't as natural. It wasn't as wild feeling as some of the areas up here are that I can access within 10, 15 minutes.

And I think just the ability to grow up near that, to, again, it's coming back to the future generations planting the seed now.

The adults can go outside and do their nature bathing and feel better and have a reverence. But if we can continue that for the kids, for the future generations, I think that would be huge. I think there's not much we can do about sprawl and population growth at this point. I'm not going to sit here and tell people to put a limit on how many kids they can have. But it's maintaining that relationship with nature and going outside and not...

growing up in the cities and just staying there, like having that availability, I think is huge. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, hopefully the city of Bellingham, you know, takes into account our natural world when considering expanding and, you know, being almost a place for climate refugees, you know, who will be seeking asylum, you know, from climate change.

But, you know, we do have to prioritize our natural world as well because those are community members as well. Yeah, definitely. Can you share the impacts of invasive species on local ecosystems and how the community can help NC with that cause? Yeah, I mean, again, that's one of those ones that there's so many. I would say the two that I find myself really worried about

in Whatcom County or up here at least, you know, read Canary Grass. It's not dangerous, but it's just so persistent. It's so prevalent, and it really can make its own landscapes. There are some of the creeks that we work in that

At some point were really beautiful flowing creeks and then the reed canary started taking hold and its roots can spread so wide and just catch material that it just creates its own landforms. And so that's one that we're constantly battling. And then I think knotweed, if we can continue working on knotweed in the forks on the main stem,

that would be huge. The knotweed itself, again, does not provide stability. It really sets up monocultures and it'll outcompete most things. And those are the two, you know, there's the plethora of invasives that we deal with on most of our sites. I think to me, those are the two that stand out. And as far as how the community can help, I mean, again, it's that knowledge, the understanding of why these are issues, right?

Everyone loves their pretty ornamentals that come from other countries and that's great as long as you pay attention and you're aware of it, right? The amount of places that I've been that just have yard debris strewn about this natural landscape, like that's how we lose control of these invasives. That's how they really escape and

spread through these systems. It's difficult to tell if you throw a leaf somewhere, right? Like if I just buy a plant from Fred Meyer, it's hard to tell if I throw some debris from it if it's going to take over. But I think being more responsible about that, taking care of it and not throwing it in natural areas would really help. And then there's always like, we have volunteer work parties every spring, every fall.

So on our local scale, if people want to get involved, they can come on out. We definitely have ones that have to do with planting. We have some that have to do with invasive removal.

Both are fun, both are a lot of hard work and we'll get dirty. Yeah, you were talking about philanthropy or funding. If people have those resources and they can't or they don't have a creek on their property and they would love to help us do some restoration on another property, we would certainly welcome that. I think James and I were talking a little bit earlier to monocultures. You didn't really mention Blackberry because we seem to be able to get on top of Blackberry. But

We're both a little nervous that with climate change are these species gonna be better adapted than some of our native plants. And so as some of our native plants struggle it gives them more of a leg up, more of an opportunity to dominate sites. And I'm not an expert so I wouldn't know but I think if something comes from a warmer climate probably is gonna do just fine. Darryl can you?

I know this question isn't on the thing, but could you maybe share with the audience some plant species that you've seen disappear or have been heavily impacted in your time of being a project manager here? Yeah, I would say Western Red Cedar is probably the one that's been most noted. Well, that's not absolutely true. We started noticing...

Sitka spruce, leader dieback. We thought probably late 90s. We just thought, boy, that's odd. That's odd. And then I would say early 2000s, it was every, like, it wasn't every second tree, every third trees. It was all spruce were just kind of topped out at 90s.

like an eight foot or 10 foot bush the most. And spruce to us was just a wonderful tree to plant. Beaver didn't like it, deer didn't like it. It's fairly adaptable, you know, wetter or drier soils. So we were really discouraged when we started to notice that. And then I guess about the time we really noticed that in full swing, then we started to notice cedar dieback.

plants, I think James mentioned earlier, like new plants that we planted, the survival on some sites would be about 40%. Then we started noticing here in reference reaches where there was a nice forest cedars dying within a forest, even a forest that seemed to have a substantial soil moisture. So that I think is the most alarming one for me because

I know that the local tribes and probably much more than local tribes have a great reverence and respect for Western Red Cedar. I'm always in awe of them when I'm in a beautiful forest of Western Red Cedar. I know it's a very big part of your culture. So yeah, that's the one I guess that has had the greatest impact on myself or what I've seen. Western Red Cedar is so long lived, produces so much deep shade.

And even after it dies and falls over, it can persist for hundreds of years as a nurse log or in a creek, creating better in-stream habitat diversity. So to lose a species like that or see a decline is very, very sad. Yeah, I have nothing. I want to start crying. Yeah, the cedars are the most part. I think I'd say more recently we've seen some declines in Doug fir at higher elevations.

It seems like big leaf maples are struggling a little bit. It seems like there's something that's been working through them in the past. I mean, those two are a little more recent to me than the cedars or the spruce, but I'm sure there's more that we haven't really seen as well.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that right off the top, too. And while I had no idea, I always seen cedar as, like, this just giant, resilient being that just, like, I mean, like, I mean, it's toxic, and it's just, its bark is so gritty, and it can just, like, withstand so much, and, yeah.

That's really a testament to how big this issue is, climate change and habitat loss and invasive species being here. It just goes to show how important your work is. Yeah, you said it. Indigenous communities rely on western red cedar. Really, all of these different trees that you mentioned, they all have a role in our community and to...

hear their names and hear that they're struggling makes me a bit sad and also kind of like ignite something in me like let's let's do something yeah I think that second part is the key right it's very easy to be sad about it to start feeling hopeless but if you can find that motivation to want to do something and make a change I think that's what what really helps

Yeah, well, there's been a movement going around recently called Decolonize Your Lawns. And it inspires people to take their traditional monoculture grass lawns or their lawns that are

elegant or eloquent, whatever that word is. And really just plant a biodiverse native species or an ecosystem in your lawn that can help. Can you maybe speak to that movement and give your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think it's great. I think

personal level it's been a little bit difficult because pushing against that mold of like you know it's so ingrained in us that that the American dream is that clean cut lawn and like as a father of the family I'm out there mowing every weekend which like I really don't mind mowing it's kind of it's meditative it's like it gives me some quiet um and

And then I've got a few sections where I've just kind of scraped back the grass and thrown wild native seeds and let it come back. You know, I'll be the first to admit, like, working in this field, it does look a little wild and it looks messy. It's not that clean-cut grass look, right, that we've been trained that this is what a lawn looks like. But I think for me it's seeing the benefits of it that really makes the difference, and

Those seeds will continue germinating, will continue setting there, like seeing the animals, the insects using it. I mean, even my cat's like hiding in it, but that's a little different. And I think for us, at our work level,

There are definitely some properties that we work with. A lot of our project sites are on private property. Some of them are going to be bigger ag fields that we're putting in some sort of buffer along their stream or creek. And then we've got a few that there's one that I'm thinking of specifically that we just planted the other day. That's it's the backyard of these homeowners. And they gave up, you know, some stretch of land along their backyard, along the creek. And we were able to rewild it. And it does

It has a different feel. It's not so much creating this forest but trying to do some sort of native landscaping so that they can still find enjoyment out of their yard while also getting benefits for the water bodies for whatever insects are inhabiting their fish species, whatever it may be. And then, you know, we share a Washington Conservation Corps crew with Whatcom County and part of their...

project list these past few years has been the neighborhood native landscaping program with Whatcom County which has been working in right now they've been in Birch Bay and Lake Whatcom area it's somewhat of an extension of the old HIP program and it's it's taking

people's lawns and adding native plants to help with the nutrients that are running off into these water bodies or into the stormwater areas. And the amount of people I've seen buying into that and the excitement that I've seen in the homeowners that we work with when I was leading the crew and just talking to the crews nowadays,

is really inspirational. Just seeing that these people are so grateful for the crews to come out and bring these native plants and how neat the landscapes end up looking. It's really been a fun part of what I've been involved with the past few years. I've definitely noticed more people covering their lawn in cardboard and adding some mulch and planting plants. Most of our property is forested and I love that. I mean, I...

I'd love being around trees. I guess that probably said that before. I think too, when I'm in a forest, there's not trees, it's just the variation in elevations. And that's probably due to thousands of years of nurse logs. And then when something is just flat and grass, it just seems quite unappealing to me. I like that kind of hummocky rolling feel. So I'm

I put a couple of logs in, I planted them, my huckleberries didn't survive, I think the deer ate them, but I'm trying to recreate that kind of rolling topography and that comes into our restoration sites too. When you're on a farm field and there's an adjacent forest, you just look in the forest and everything is

diverse and there's all these little niches and aspects and then there's just the flat water field so I'm glad people are doing that because you can do it fast enough yeah that's that's wonderful and yeah thank you for um thank you for uh sharing and you know audience members if you're listening decolonize your lawns

Can you guys speak to the different areas prioritized for habitat restoration, considering factors such as the biodiversity, ecosystem service or functionality and the potential threats? Yeah, I think, I mean, for us, there's

multiple facets to that. Like I think at its base for us, if someone contacts us and they have a water body on their property that has some benefit to Salmonids in Whatcom County, like yes, we would like to work with you. That's at its base. That's our easiest. There are definitely times when our project list is

a little more hectic and we have to kind of prioritize more strictly um but we try not to turn anyone away like anyone that really wants some sort of restoration some sort of benefit benefit

to salmon bearing streams, like we're in. So that's like first level. And then from there we would go, you know, the biggest thing to us would be what willingness benefits to salmon, like which species, you know, we have our guidelines coming from DFW from the state, wherever there may be that we definitely, we have to prioritize certain salmon species, right. Endangered species, um, ESA listed species is, is kind of top level priority. Um,

creeks that have, we would also look at what's the benefits that's there on that site already. If there's no cover, going in and putting in some sort of restoration project would get us a better bang for our buck, I guess I'd say, than going into somewhere that has canopy. And so that's how we divide up funding any given year.

But yeah, there's many, many factors that go into it for us. I think the other side is how do we share with the collaborators? So the tribes have different sections of water bodies that they are dealing with. We deal with these other areas. And so we kind of share, split it up a little bit throughout the county so that we're not stepping on each other's toes.

Yeah, I think you're right. We do tend to focus on more of the lowland streams. The tribes tend to focus more in the forks. A lot of our species probably benefit more of coho and steelhead and chum versus chinook. We would love to do more work on chinook streams, but both tribes are doing incredible projects. If we can be involved in those projects, that's wonderful. But we feel there's plenty of work, as James said, to share about.

We tend to work, as James said, it was most impacted. So primarily agricultural land, just a monoculture of grass or rotated with corn or something. We would love to get in those areas and add some more trees and get more shade on the creek, increase the diversity of plant species. You mentioned deciduous overstory.

That can somewhat persist as a monoculture in itself, where it wouldn't have done historically, where you'll have a stand of alder or...

or cottonwood and then the understory is all blackberry and there's not root because it's an kind of an island in itself it's hard for natural regeneration of conifers into those so we still think those are very important especially alder because alder just doesn't live that long so if we see a site that's just alder and blackberry like we want to get on that site because when the alder all falls in it'll just be solid blackberry so we want to get a control on that and get conifers also the alder you know they fix

atmospheric nitrogen, they provide a lot of leaf litter, they provide shade. So for you know a place where a western red cedar could thrive that's a great opportunity. So getting in right at that niche before the alder all collapse and get cedar underneath them. And it does sadly, I'll come back to landowner willingness, we may identify a site and say this is the site, this will have the most impact on this creek but we can't work on it. So then it may lead to opportunity

And opportunity is somewhat contagious. We'll do a site and then a neighbor will approach us and then maybe a farmer will say, "Well, that doesn't look so bad." I'll do that. So yeah, it's a little different levels of prioritization, I guess.

Thank you for helping our audience understand what this work looks like and what areas are prioritized more. And for bringing in the tribes' work as well. That's really neat. I didn't know that the tribes mainly focused on the forks. So that's pretty cool. Is there a reason for that?

I think as James mentioned the listed species with the spring Chinook or early Chinook being a huge resource for both tribes and it's sadly in decline. They're doing the right thing, focus on the species that needs all the help and that's in the forks. I mean they do migrate through the lower main stem but they don't really spend any time in the lower lowland tributaries.

that is the priority I think for the YR1 SAM recovery plan is Chinook. And obviously doing things for early Chinook will also benefit other species. Could you share about some notable projects that NC has been a part of or has led this year?

This year, darn, I was looking back for a really cool... Or you can talk about maybe your favorite project through time as a project manager. That might be even more... Okay, thanks. We do... I mean, the bigger projects we have in the year will be fish passage that would have the most impact and maybe seem the greatest achievement because we are planting and we're planting for the future, but when we remove a fish passage barrier, we...

pretty excited about that. I was thinking of several projects, but maybe I'll just use one as kind of an analogy. James was mentioning, you know, you've got a lot of agricultural lands where waterways have been diverted or straightened, channelized for the ease of land use. And then you've had this big change from, again, that rolly, hummocky

forested understory to just grass. So I think, and you always, I was thinking you mentioned reed canary grass. There are a number of sites we've worked on over the years where reed canary grass has become so dominant that the channel has literally disappeared because it's kind of a positive feedback loop, I guess, as the grass, which will tolerate a lot of moisture and will out-compete almost any native plant in a wet situation, you know, once it gets a toehold.

It slows down the flow and sediment drops out and the grass grows up and we worked on a couple of sites, one on Terrell Creek, one on Kendall, one on Ten Mile, that all were in that kind of situation. There was just reed canary grass, nothing else, and you really couldn't see a perceivable channel, maybe a few low spots. And getting onto those properties and treating the grass and

I think we have, I mean, thinking of most of those, we were able to not maybe necessarily put the channel back in its true, you know, historic plan form, but we were able to add a lot more diversity to this straight channel by putting little oxbows in and putting little turns or just placing wood and allowing the wood to push the channel around a little bit. So I think the removal of the reed canary grass that

channel reconfiguration, adding large woods. You get this really immediate impact, water hitting the woods, scouring holes, diverting a channel, creating a little bit of a meander. And then right behind that, we plant, and I think on three

All three of those sites, we did what we called de-leveling because we don't have nurse logs. We can't go flat to drop all these nurse logs in with helicopters. So we just would take an excavator and kind of move dirt around a little bit to create some higher places where conifers would have a better survival rate. So I think those I thought were the most successful, most rewarding because suddenly you had free flowing water.

You had wood creating habitat diversity within the channel. You had shade from all these adjacent shrubs. And then behind that you had these higher areas with conifers. So that would be the closest I ever felt like, boy, you know, within 10 years we've got a forest. So I think those are the projects that excited us, excited me most. The introduction of wood to the channel, the creation of different topography,

and I had a lot of plants. We did mention a little earlier too, like what we plant, we know that in the long term a lot of these shrubs won't survive once they get under deep shade, but we have so many amazing native shrubs that are so fast growing and will tolerate a fair amount of inundation that they can just get a jump and they can really change things in a short period of time. And meanwhile, you got again, the slower growing conifers and hardwood deciduous behind them.

I guess I would be able to more speak to, you know, within the more recent timeline too because I don't have that 30, almost 30 years of projects backlogged in my head as far as management goes. You know, I think one of my favorite sites in the past few years is on the Nooksack Mainstem. It's in Ferndale, so it's just off of like Marine Drive area and I think for me,

I think I started it in 2019. It was our first Orca Day work party and we had, it must at least, it was over a hundred volunteers out there for the volunteer work, but I had the whole crew out with me and we had brought a thousand plants out to put in and it was just old, full reed canary field. And we were able to plant all thousand plants in the ground, get them blue tube protected with the volunteers help and

It was just a really, really big volunteer project. I don't manage the volunteer side of it, but to see it from a project management side was really, really cool to see all the collaboration there. And then we've gone back and planted every year and just continued pulling back from the river. It's also along Quina Slough, so it's got multiple water bodies. And I think, you know, there's...

Seeing the changes in it, seeing these plants come up over the past four or five years since we started it has been really interesting to me. A lot of the sites that I'm at, it's still early on. So to see those taller tree stands, I have to go to old sites that Daryl managed, which is still really cool. But there's something to say about going back to one that you started with your hands and seeing that difference.

And that one as well was really interesting because there's so many parties involved. You know, that area is used by Lummi tribe for fishing and so oftentimes we'll be out there and we'll see all the people out there fishing. And there's been a couple times they've offered us smoked salmon. I was like, oh, heck yeah. So that definitely plays into why it's one of my favorites.

But yeah, so there's interplay with Lummi Nation, Fish and Wildlife is out there, Whatcom County Public Works has been out there with us. And just seeing all of the groups come together to work on this one restoration project has really been fun for me. So that's definitely one of my favorites. I wouldn't call it a success yet. It's a work in progress. We're getting there. It definitely floods every year, so it's so dynamic. It's a really interesting site.

Yeah, how many plants have y'all planted this year? Oh, this year, I was just, I actually need to run the full numbers. Yeah, I need to run the full numbers. It's just under 30,000. I think with what our crew finished this week, we probably hit 30,000 and crested over it a little bit. Wow, that is incredible. 30,000 plants. And how much...

plants are in your nursery on average? We keep it around 20,000, and most of the nursery stock is used for our volunteer work parties with the crews supplementing some of it, and then we pull bare root stock or plugs or live stakes for the crews to go out and use.

Wow. And I've seen on Ferndale Road there's a restoration project done, I believe, by NC. What was planted there? Yeah, that's my favorite one. Or that's one of my current favorite ones. A lot of things. So we've got our normal conifers. We have Sitka spruce, western red cedar,

I believe we put some dug firs out there which I tried to find high spots but you know it floods pretty often so I don't know how well the dugs are doing. And then we threw some shrubs out here and there. That one since it was a reed canary field I was trying to go heavier on trees first and then you know generally we'd find our shrubs closer to the bank but as it's been flooding more frequently we've kind of gone back in the past few years and

taking the gaps in between the trees and really just trying to go really heavy with shrubs like snowberry, salmonberry. We've got Pacific nine bark or red ozer dogwood out there in those really wet spots. There's some areas with

different types of willow species and that's typically where the floods come in and there's like a straight flow over at Aquinasloo where it crosses the road. So it's got our pretty big mix. There's paper birch, red alder for deciduous trees. There was a day we were out there and

was on the other side managing their property and thinning out some of the cottonwoods to help the other trees come up. And I remember walking over and there were big, like, 10-foot poles of cottonwoods. I was like, hey, can I borrow some of these? And we were able to get some and take them over to the other restoration project. And we dug some big holes and dropped in these, like, 10-foot poles of cottonwoods as, like, huge live stakes. And those started growing this past summer, which was really interesting. So, yeah, there's a big mix of...

plant species out there.

Yeah, thank you. And I know we talked a bit earlier about tribes and the efforts that the tribes are doing. And it sounds like there's a lot of alignment and a lot of parallels when you're out in the field doing your work and the tribe is doing their work. I guess that's to be expected when you are working on something like this. Yeah.

Do you know or have you heard of indigenous knowledge systems, of knowledge around plants or traditional ecological knowledge? And could you share some examples of what you learned in these fields?

Examples of traditional ecological knowledge are land management techniques, seasonal harvesting practices and cultivation, medicinal plant usage, migratory patterns, and spirituality, where spirit and science are regarded on the same level and never separate. Yeah, I think we're both aware of them as concepts. It's not something that we've...

been trained or brought up in writing neither of us are indigenous but as we continue working with the tribes like I'd say we're learning more and more the one when we were kind of looking at this earlier and talking about some things the thing that kind of came up to both of us was you

you know, land management, seasonal burning, which my understanding came from the harvesting of canvas bulbs annually, right? And so like for me, when I experienced that was working out on the islands and we were doing Gary Oak habitat restoration. So we would be thinning out Doug firs and other conifers that were encroaching on the Gary Oak areas. And the reason we had to do that was because there was no longer a seasonal burning for, for canvas management that the tribes were doing out there.

And so that was always really interesting to me, like, why don't we just do it again? But, you know, now Western science and property rights, things have come back in. And I would say there's probably just an abundance, like coming back to Sprawl, there's so many people that really would be pretty difficult to just burn these large areas of land just for the land management. And it happens in some areas, but that's not, we haven't tried any of that.

any of that. We were told not to burn. We were told not to burn sites. Yeah. So I think that's kind of where it comes up for us. And to me too, it's just this, that spirituality, like I see it as this awareness and observance of patterns.

in nature, really, this being aware of how things are happening on the ground and really paying attention to it where, you know, I think we're coming around to that and that's becoming more of a Western science kind of tradition. But it's definitely taking some time. Yeah, I think the same thing. I think

Though I understand what it is, I wouldn't say I'm a practitioner in the sense of an Indigenous person.

would be that they're long historic ties to nature, but at the same time, I mean, as James said, when you walk into a forest or even just a reference reach on a site, you're working on this site and you just go down and you're like, man, look at that creek and look at how it's meandering through these woods and look at how that fallen tree is down and look what's coming up inside the tree. You know, walking through the forest and seeing this old cedar stump with a new tree growing out of it. So that, I guess I just...

I would like to emulate that. I know it's a long process, but I think you... I hate to say this, you don't need science. Of course you need science, but...

you can just look around and you can kind of see what's working or what has worked and what assemblages of plants are typically together and where this plant would do best. And if you observe that, you kind of store that away in your mind. And then when you go to do it, you kind of look at the crew. Well, this would be really good here because I can see what it would look like in the future.

Yeah, thank you for your answers. They're both really insightful. And I know that's a really hard question to understand. It's kind of intimidating, but it's a question I like to pose to a lot of people.

regardless of field or profession. We were intimidated. Yes. It worked for you. But you answered the question so appropriately, and you know what? A big part of indigenous knowledge or indigenous science or native science is observation and really just contextualized efforts and contextualized knowledge. It's not something that like,

It's not something that was developed a thousand years ago and we just stick to those rules or those principles. It's really contextualized and that's kind of why I included that question in this interview was to show really without you guys even knowing reading or knowing the true definition of indigenous science or native science, you broke down two methodologies that are like

pinnacle in indigenous science and that just right there speaks to the alignment in your work and modern conservation philosophies and indigenous knowledge systems that have existed here for quite some time. So thank you, thank you for your answers. What are your thoughts on how traditional ecological knowledge can contribute to contemporary environmental conservation efforts and address challenges such as climate change?

It's kind of getting back to that emulation. I think if we can build our management protocols, we throw around protocols, we have these best management practices. But I think if we can realize that those are not set in stone, it needs to be some more of an adaptive management plan.

We may have this idea of how things are going to work and then something changes one year and we need to be able to roll with that. So if we can really emulate that ability to observe what you see on the ground and listen to what you see from the land or what you hear from the land, that will help us be more flexible in what we're doing year to year or how we manage these project sites or water bodies, whatever it may be. And that's kind of, I think that's the big thing that sticks with me just

Listening to it there there have been many many people ask me like oh, like, you know added space like the simple question I always get how do you choose what plants you're gonna put at this site and

And the easiest one for me is like, just look what's upstream. I look at where I can see things growing well. That's doing pretty, you know, and I think there's levels to looking and making sure like people have done surveys of the soil, right? To see where soil lines are cut off. But you can kind of just see that on the land too. You can see things are growing here that look pretty wet. That looks similar to this. Let's put some wet loving species here, right?

And I think that ability to just hear what the land and what all the plants, animals are telling you is something that we could benefit from. I think, well, you mentioned a seventh generation. I mean, we should definitely learn from that, like really think about the future long-term. I think we're fairly short-sighted most of the times and we really want immediate results. I think we talked a little bit about conservation at the beginning. I mean, what...

Our ancestors, maybe not your ancestors, my ancestors did in such a short period of time to degrade this, what was here. It's going to take a long, long time to put it back in some semblance of what it was historically. So I think the idea of conserving areas that already still have that beauty or they have the bones and a good structure and they're going to come back on their own

I would assume from a tribal perspective, I mean those various places are sacred. They shouldn't be just sacred to the tribes. They should be sacred to everybody that you want to save those. So it would be like protect all of the good habitat or recovering habitat you can and then as James said on the other sites try and emulate what you see in those areas and put it here and it's going to be a long process. So I think yeah we

We have to be more patient, I guess, and more long-sighted, and I guess be more respectful too. Yeah, thank you both. Yeah, that was really, really insightful. And yeah, I mean, thank you, Daryl, for talking about what this land was historically, you know, and how, and giving perspective on how abundant and full of life, you know, these ecosystems were and

you know, really holding your ancestors accountable. Part of my ancestors, as I'm not 100% indigenous, so part of my ancestors, you know, were also a part of that destruction and for that to be acknowledged and

for our audience to hear about that. That really helps bring light to what indigenous knowledge systems are capable of and potentially with indigenous knowledge and western knowledge working together we can

restore these ecosystems maybe to not what they once were but to something that is sustainable and maybe one day we do see a return of old growth forests in this area that would be magic yeah it would be well they just protected a bunch of legacy so yeah yeah yeah that's great um

All around the world we see indigenous communities stepping up in the face of climate change. Examples of this are northern indigenous communities observing conditions of ice, dam removal campaigns led by salmon people, some communities standing in the face of corporate greed,

and others have been fighting for over a century. Why do you think it is the norm for indigenous communities to not sell out their natural resources, even if it has substantial economic benefits? - It comes back a little bit to your last question, I mean, to protect their culture and their way of life. I think they, like you just said, through observation and seeing so much destruction in such a short period of time and realizing how long recovery takes

I think you would be less apt to say, oh, we can have this short gain and we're going to have this huge loss and we're not going to recover from that loss for many, many, many, many years. So I guess that's what I would think the perspective. I feel like we've had this question a little intimidated too because we're almost speaking for you. I mean, you would understand this, your people would understand this way better than we would. So just trying to

Yeah, this is what I believe. But I don't want to speak for you at all. Feel free. I mean, this question really...

It is your perspective on why it is that tribes, 'cause I know. - In that life. - But it just gives the audience your perspective on how you see it. So it's, like you said, we care about it. It's a lifestyle choice and I think that's the perfect answer. - Yeah.

I don't even think it's a lifestyle choice. It's like that's just part of who you are. Like it's not a choice. You know what I mean? Like that's kind of what I was like. It seems like, yeah, it seems like a community-based thing, right? I think the difference is that your community seems bigger and it involves things that are not just humans. Your community is the land, the trees, the animals.

And there's just this reverence and respect. And, you know, that's not to say that all Western communities don't have that. That's not to say that all non-Indigenous people don't have that. I feel like I came from a family that was very much our community was together. I don't think it was as broad of a sense, um,

But I think that was there and it was definitely ingrained in me from a young age to really you're out in nature like this is part of who you are. This is part of who our family is. And I really respected that. And I thought I think that's what's kind of led me to where I'm at now. Right. And that's different lines, different different forms of reverence, different beliefs even. But I think that's a huge part of what.

makes you all who you are. Just this ability to connect with the land and have this like utmost respect for everything on there. And that's a huge difference that I see. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean...

Y'all might as well have read a native science book. In recent history, we have seen Western science disproven and indigenous science and knowledge systems validated. What do you see as some benefits of indigenous science working alongside Western science with the same regards and respects? Yeah, I think when we looked at this one, our assumption was the same as what you just kind of

you know, clarified with. But we were kind of curious for clarification on the regards and respects. Like, we're coming from a place of just assuming you mean that both sides are respecting each other, both sides are giving each other equal ground to stand on and coming together, which, you know, at that point, it's like,

That just makes sense. Why not collaborate? The more we can get together, the more we can learn from each other, the better the science will be, the better the respect for the environment will be, and ultimately the better the habitat will end up being for salmon and for the community, right? I think, again, it comes back to that, like being able to listen and observe what you're seeing on the ground and really taking that with you and applying our, your, whatever quotation marks, right, science to it.

And I think that's kind of where it comes to me, that it's just on collaboration. I think the more we can work together, the better everything will be. And it's just more fun. You know, no man is an island, as they say.

I think too, like Western science, I think is very young. Where, you know, Native peoples have such a long history on the land and your keen observation of nature. Like you said, I'm repeating myself, a strong sense of attachment to the land and working with nature and not against it. So I see them being able to work very well together and

Yeah, I think Western science could learn a lot from native knowledge systems and they don't have to be inclusive. Or sorry, they don't have to be, I don't know what the word is. They can be combined and they don't have to be separate. I don't know if this is actually a science thing, but I believe it is. I mean, at some point, some science was used to

say we should remove wood from rivers because it's inhibiting fish passage. I mean, wood is what makes fish passage, you know, so, and probably native people know that all the like, what are those idiots pulling that wood out of the river? They're like, well, they're kind of slow, you know, it's a young science, they'll catch them. I actually just read, um,

An article on the Nooksack dam removal, the log jam in Ferndale. Oh, man, that was a good read. It's like, wow. Just like the language used was quite literally that these logs obstruct salmon passage and travel and really...

It just obstructed travel. Yeah. That's Skagit 2. Skagit had a huge log jam on it and they... I remember reading something about it. It was like 30 feet tall, just the logs. We, as Westerners, assume that if we can't make it past it on our boats, how can anything else make it past it, right? And I think that's

Short-sighted. Yes, that's that short-sighted, that's that assuming we are the smartest, we know the most, we've been here, whatever it is. And that's, yeah, that's where that reverence, I think, comes in play.

Well, thank you both for being willing to join Young and Indigenous on this journey of learning about plants and really people who just live their life around plants. It was an honor to have both of you here on the episode today. One last thing. Can you share something for our Indigenous youth listeners?

I'm going to give too much away, I think. I'm so excited that James is starting this new position because he works with young people all the time, and I'm several steps removed. Though I do get to converse a little bit, I don't have the direct involvement. And as a Washington Conservation Corps supervisor, it's not just looking at...

you know, what you can do, how many tasks you complete. It's about your professional development and development as a human and self importance or self presence. What's the right word we're using the other day. I just like when you look at young people, you're like, wow, this is all fine and great, but what do you want to do? Where do you see it? Like, this is really interesting. Or what skills could you get from this to take on to some other challenge or thing you want to do? And so,

I shouldn't be touting the Washington-Gonzalez Recruit Program, but I think it's a pretty amazing program. If any younger tribal members would be interested, James has always said, we've got to get more diversity. We've got to get more people here. There are lots of other volunteer opportunities with NC that you can get involved in, you know, on these Saturday work parties. I know we've

We're right now working on some collaborations on some different projects. I don't know if they will all be open to the public, but I think wherever there is a possibility, because you've done projects on some of the Lummi properties and...

you know, it's a great opportunity to get out and socialize and put a few trees in the ground. So I would say, yeah, come out and plant some more trees. If you got a half of your, almost a year to spare and you want some great experience, get on the Washington Conservation Corps crew. Check out WCC. Yeah. I would say follow your passions. But, you know, for me, you can come do this for a year and just experience it and have fun working outside. That's kind of where it started for me. Um,

It just seemed fun to work outside and be in the forest and deal with plants and rivers. And so it all started just following things that I like doing and having a growth mindset of like, I don't know. I'm not the person that I'm going to be in 10 years right now. It's admitting to myself that

I'm going to change, I'm going to grow and being willing to accept it. It's not always going to be easy. There are going to be very difficult times. But being able to roll with the flow and adapt, I think is crucial, especially these days more than ever.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you both. And yeah, you heard it first young and indigenous. If you're looking for something to do, just go out, uh, find a local conservation group and, um, see where you can volunteer or, um,

you know, just put yourself out in nature and in the land and just observe and become one with that community. So, haishka again, James. Haishka again, Daryl. Thank you for joining Young and Indigenous. This is a podcast brought to you by Cultural Survival and Children of the Setting Sun Productions. Thank you for listening.

Hey, what up, y'all? Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Plant Series. This episode has been produced by Roy Alexander, Free Borsi, Cyrus James, and Ellie Smith. Original soundtrack by Roy Alexander, Mark Nichols, and Free Borsi. Huge thank you to our funders, the In It's Eye Foundation, the Cultural Survival Fellowship, the Paul Allen Foundation, and the Whatcom Community Foundation.

Young and Indigenous is a part of Children of the Setting Sun Productions. We are an Indigenous nonprofit set in the homelands of the Lummi and Nooksack people. Hatshuka for listening. Later, y'all.