428 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Magnus Carlson
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You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. What a bizarre thing we've created.

Now with your host, Adam Thorne. This might either be the worst podcast or the best one of all time. One, go. Enjoy the show. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week, I'm joined by Hayden. How you doing, buddy? Good, how are you? Thanks for having me. Chess nerd? Question mark? Chess nerd, question mark. Love it. I like to throw myself in that category, except I'm not good enough.

to call myself a chess nerd i just like chess a lot i'm not good enough at it though yeah i would agree it's too difficult dude oh no there's so many different variables that you can uh have to take into account and it gets way too complex but it's so fun to watch just like fantasize that you could be that good yeah it's like how do their brains work i couldn't tell you it gets uh

The highest levels of it is just incomprehensible sometimes. Yeah. And Magnus Carlsen, who Rogan talked to recently, is the highest level of it. I mean, yet greatest chess player of all time, right? Highest ranked ever. Yeah, ever. What is his score? 28? 2800, yeah.

Yeah. I don't even know how you get to that level. It's basically a computer. Yeah, basically. Like a human computer. He's the only one who has a chance at some of these AI systems that they're creating for chess. Yeah. But still no chance. Yeah, no chance. Still no chance. Interesting that Tony Hinchcliffe was on the pod. I mean, I know he likes to come in when there's WWE wrestlers. He's a big fan of that. He pops in every now and again, you know, when he wants the fanboy out. But...

I would have never guessed that he would come in for Magnus. And he was really like in awe. Yeah. Like you could tell he was a big fan of. Oh, yeah. He was just quiet and just truly listening to everything he said. Right. I felt like Magnus was he he's pretty humble in a lot of ways. Like he he's in front of Rogan, which is like a big show, you know.

I guess that could be seen as a lot of pressure, and maybe it is for a lot of people. He seemed very chill, though. Very relaxed, very much how I've always seen him present himself. I wonder if that's part of his skills, his superpower to playing chess well. Just staying level. Oh, you have to be. The pressure that you face on the world stage like that, you have to remain calm, especially with a game that's so focused on analytics, strategy, and...

all of that yeah god imagine that stress don't they i think i heard this once you like burn those guys burn like 10 000 calories or like something and i'm like well from what just thinking just the brain power either that or they're so tense that it's just like these just contraction um exercises they're doing the whole time

But they can sit there and play a game for like eight hours. Eight hours, yeah. It's got to take a toll on your brain after a while. Yeah. I'm in awe of it. And this is why I was so pumped to have Rogan talk to him because I know Rogan doesn't play chess, but he's always fascinated by people that are the best at what they do. And he wants to kind of figure out how it happens. And I think that he was asking a lot of the right questions to get there.

I just don't know if Magnus knew. No. He didn't seem like he was well aware. He just goes about and does his own thing, whatever his intuition tells him. It almost seems like he's not all that impressed with his own ability. Yeah. He's just like, yeah, I do this, and then I prep like that, and I watch these things, and I have a good memory. It was just hard to kind of piece together, like, how is this genius being created? Yeah.

He's very humble to even recognizing his own ability.

What did you think of the controversy, the big story? So that one, that one is a difficult one. Cause there was the instances with Neiman cheating in the past on chess.com to, you know, play those higher rated players because he thought he had the ability to. And you look at, you know, what Magnus was saying, even when he gets to those classical on the board games, he doesn't perform as well as he normally would if he was playing online. So that's,

That definitely does spark some controversy if he was still cheating in those instances. But Carlson also did mention that Neiman has gotten significantly better since then. So I think that there definitely was a time that Neiman was cheating. And, you know, I forget what the chessboard is called, FIDE. They still say that the game that Neiman played against Carlson was legit and that he didn't cheat. But...

There is still some evidence to kind of suggest that, you know, he did cheat in the past, so let's just stop him from doing it now. That's a good point. Did he beat Carson that time? He did, yeah. Ooh.

Yeah. So that's why it's kind of like maybe Carlson was just a little bit upset that he got beat. Um, cause you know, that does take a toll on your Elo and especially with someone that young, uh, it just doesn't make sense. But another point that Carlson brought up in the podcast is that, um, he had these anonymous accounts that he would play on chess.com. So people wouldn't recognize him. And he,

he went and talked to some Russian grandmaster. And just because of Carlson's play style, he was able to figure out that these anonymous accounts were Magnus Carlson. So these people who are at the top of their game, who truly understand like each individual facet and component that it takes for to play chess at the highest level, he's able to recognize that. So maybe he is able to see how Neiman was making some of these moves that just baffled Carlson.

he's grandmasters and point to the fact that he could be cheating. Holy shit. So this Russian guy figured out Carlson's games. He was like, that's that guy. Yeah. Just from his play style. And then we, because Carlson did point to that, which I found quite interesting. I'd never really thought about it. It's like, you know, somebody plays in a particular style and,

And then if they throw a curveball, it just doesn't make sense. It's like you're either being kind of aggressive or defensive or you just have this flow. And then there's this move out of nowhere that is a good move. It's positive, but it doesn't fit the rest of the game. I've always looked at each move as like a singular thing, but I guess it doesn't make sense that it would be. You're always doing something. Right. And there can just be like one move that's like,

just even a tiny mistake of moving the wrong piece or it's not like a complete blunder, but it does allow an opportunity for a chink in your armor to be exposed. And he talks about that in there that he, he alludes to the fact that he could also cheat at this game and be the best that he could possibly be. If he just knew like that, one of these critical moments happened and figuring out what the best move is in that situation. And capitalizing on that is it's just those tiny slip ups that can make the entire game.

Because it would make sense, right? That, you know, a lot of times you know where to go. Right. And then other times you're like, all right, this is really... There's a lot going on in this corner. What do I do here? I mean, I can't tell you how... Basically what happens to my brain when I get there is I just guess and it's almost always terrible. Oh, yeah. No, I agree. It's just like intuition at that point. Yeah, it gets bad because when you're not that good at chess, I mean...

I get to a point where like even thinking for it too long is going to make the move worse. So I just kind of speed it up. Oh, I agree. I think it's like kind of just having that parasimony doing the simplest thing is the best option at that point. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the anal beads or I thought it was a butt plug. Yeah. Originally, but they were saying anal beads a lot. Right.

On the podcast, but whatever it was, it's like, I wonder, you know, I know that Magnus said it came from Reddit and, you know, it was just, but I mean, that was the story. Yeah. That was what the news picked up. Yeah. I mean, it definitely has some shock value to it, but like with the clickbait, of course, but with the checks that they do before the games, it doesn't.

You know, it's kind of hard to put that out of a theory that could be reasonable because they're not going to be checking, you know, checking people's asses for anal beads. I would hope not. Yeah, right. I want to think that we live in a world where chess tournaments don't require the TSA. Yeah. You know what I mean? You would hope, but at this point in time, I guess not. They're just scanning them in. Yeah. That's so wild, though.

And now they're doing this Netflix documentary. It didn't sound like Magnus was like super stoked on it. No, I don't think so. From what I was reading about the documentary, it does get back into that controversy again, but it seems like they're more just getting the perspective of the other grandmasters at the time. They didn't really publicly share that they thought Neiman was cheating, but now they're actually stepping forward, showing their faces, sharing their voices to say like,

yeah this is what we think's going on um so it's not anything like new building to the case but it is just getting those people in the limelight well i sent you the article earlier yeah

You're pretty smart. When people talk about you, too smart comes up a lot. So why are you trying to prove them wrong? Why aren't you pushing the limits of science and powering the nuclear engines of the world's most powerful Navy? If you were born for it, isn't it time to make a smart choice? You can be smart or you can be nuke smart. Become a nuclear engineer at Navy.com slash nuke smart. America's Navy, forged by the sea.

that he has now reached out to Rogan or tried to, and he wants to come on and tell his story. Yeah. Not necessarily rebuttal what Magnus said, but just kind of defend his position. Yeah. I'm curious to see if Rogan's interested in that. Me too. He's...

You know, he's not a huge... It's not like this is a chess podcast, so otherwise it would happen. Yeah. But I don't know. I think there could be some interest there. Oh, I 100% agree. I think Rogan is more of a person who wants to get the whole story to hear both sides and, you know, come to a consensus of what the truth is. And having Neiman's perspective would be great to hear, especially on a platform like his that reaches a massive audience. Right.

And then, you know, just another chance to talk about butt plugs and anal beads. Hilarious. Oh, for sure. Hilarious. I feel like, you know, I don't know. It's like, I don't know how to cheat like that, but I feel like there would be easier ways. Oh, couldn't you just put a thing in your shoe that vibrates? You know what I mean? Yeah. It's got to be some go that route. It's got to be some different, different things. But at the same time, there's a lot of pressure, right?

for these top guys. And, you know, when it comes to Magnus, I mean, with these AI systems in place, the types of computers that can win, it doesn't take a lot

If an individual just has a little bit of access and one of those machines, they're going to be able to beat him every time. Oh, easily. And this is his whole world. Yeah, he's worked very hard to get to that level. And like a big thing with the ELO ratings, like in open tournaments, for example, you know, if you lose two games but win the entire tournament, your ELO still goes down. And it's a big deal for, you know, people like Magnus Carlsen, who has a 2800 rating, right?

Um, even just losing those two games can mean a world of difference. And to have someone who cheats to mess you up like that can, um,

That would piss me off too. Wasn't he... There was a lot of talk about if he could get to 2,900. Yeah, I believe so. It's just, once again, just building your elo up like that, you can't win or you can't lose. If you lose one game, then you're automatically pretty much getting set back no matter how many games you win. Yeah, I heard him say not that long ago that he just doesn't think he can get there. He was just like... I think he...

If I remember rightly, he was saying that at one point he thinks he could have, but it's like past for some reason. And I don't know what he's really saying that other than, you know, he's kind of moved away from the world championship games and certain types of, I know he just did this blitz one recently. He's kind of going into some different areas, uh,

There's some bureaucracy, I think, happening and some politics throughout the chess world that he's kind of tired of. They kicked him out of one tournament because he wore jeans. And it's like, come on now. Jeans? Should be the end of the world, but...

I mean, like what he says in the podcast, he doesn't like thinking of it like a job. He likes to keep it as a hobby that he wants to stay motivated from himself. And, you know, when you focus solely on getting to that rating, it just, I feel like he would definitely get burnt out and not really enjoy it as much. Well, it's always a good move to keep what you do as...

as a hobby you enjoy. Oh, for sure. I mean, not for everyone. Some people are driven. I'm sure a lot of the Russian players saw it as their job, their duty, their patriotic risk, you know, obligation. And it was everything to them. And that's how they rocketed to the top. But yeah, that doesn't seem like Magnus's style. He wants to keep it chill and, and play. Yeah.

With some of the specialty things that he's done, like, for example, blindfolded, playing against, what was it, 12 people? 12 people, yeah. What do you make of that type of thing? Like, being someone that plays chess, enjoys it, how far away from the realm... Like, if you'd never heard of this being possible, like, no one ever even doing one game that way, and then you hear someone do 12, it's like...

What do you even think? I can't even comprehend that. Like, even when I'm just looking at my, uh, the game on my phone or just having a board in front of me, when, if I were to close my eyes and try to figure out where the chess pieces are at, I wouldn't even be able to do it just looking at the board. Um, but to do it with 12 different games simultaneously, um, keeping track of each board position and what, uh, what your opponent just did, your mind is, uh,

I can't even fully comprehend that. Yeah, and he checks mates, everyone. Every single one. And they're like guys from Cambridge or something. Yeah, they're not just bad. They're good chess players. Yeah, honestly. It just shows his level of expertise. And I think it also highlights just the...

his the way his brain works is it's it's not just normal like they do get into the podcast about um epigenetics of you know what people are what makes these people the best at the at their game and uh i think having that memory is just probably one of his most important assets like he he still says that like he'll be at a position on the board uh with an opponent opponent and recognize it from games like decades ago and he will know exactly what line to play wow i think that's just like

It's got to be one of your best weapons in your arsenal. Yeah, you said, you know, a lot of these guys do this, but Magnus used to do this, where you would just read books. Like, old chess books weren't really instructional guides. They were literally just all the games. Yeah. So you would just look through Grandmaster games, and there was just this period of time where people would memorize the entire game. Yeah. So...

I guess it's that, right? You just get to a point where you're like, oh, that looks like this. That's this pattern. I just follow this now. And what I don't get about that, though, is why the other person will do different things. Probably. That is a hard part to...

Truly figure it out. I think there's, I know Carlson likes to go to some of those older positions and just try different moves just for the, to spice things up. Cause you know, you can do these textbook openings as much as you want to that, you know, are going to be effective and get you to certain end points. But you know, like from what he says, it's just boring. It brings the soul out of the chest and to find those different creative solutions to see if there is a different angle or a stronger opportunity to take is a,

I think that just keeps the game more enjoyable for him. Yeah. Well, it sounds like he's getting inspired, you know, or has been for a while with the new up-and-comers and their new strategy to how they're going about it. He seems very impressed. And I don't want to say intimidated, but he can see that

there's some people coming up that are going to be able to beat him. Oh, for sure. Yeah. With the way that they're working. What do you think about the new strategies that these kids are taking with chess now, whether it's with AI or chess theory even? Well, it sounded fascinating to me and it makes total sense. I mean, he talked about the one young kid that would be multitasking. He'd be playing one game,

answering questions totally on it, doing something else where he's like betting or gambling or something like that. It was all of it kind of happening at once. I mean, that's total obsession. Yeah. And if you want to be the best at something as difficult as chess,

It's probably the only way. Yeah, you have to be relentless at that level. And I think it inspires Magnus because I don't want to say this came easy to him. He's obviously put a lot of work in. But I mean, you know, he drew with Garry Kasparov when he was 13.

I mean, he's been, let's say it came pretty easy to him. And now he's watching these people. What was it? He was buying time on the cloud or something. It was like access to a computer that would run really tough. Like what are they using? Supercomputers to play chess with? Yeah. Mixed with deep neural networks too. Dude. Yeah. Like what the? Yeah. Yeah.

And a lot of the theories that people are like, he brought this up back in, I think it was 2020 when AlphaZero came out, which was one of the greatest chess engines at the time that added those deep neural networks. And he was able to learn from the tactics that these chess engines used to think differently.

hundreds of moves ahead before even making a move that he completely changed his strategy and just by learning how those computers worked he was able to have an upper hand on a lot of his opponents and yeah

And now all of these kids who are growing up, they play a lot of these engines, whether it's on your phone or actually sitting down with a professional one on your computer. And you learn to be more informed from those programs. I mean, sure, you may not have been able to comprehend what those computers were thinking because they're thinking hundreds of moves ahead. And us humans, we can't truly keep up with that. But having that knowledge now and we can understand why it works. But I think that's going to inform a lot of these newcomers' games and it's going to

pretty much revolutionized the way that we play chess. Yeah, and to be fair, I mean, the human brain is a pretty spectacular, like, rarely understood, you know, organ. And even though we can't think the, you know, hundred moves ahead, like, that timeline is like, you know, maybe they're like, I'm about six moves ahead.

But often there's other stuff going on that we don't even know about. So if they're watching these engines play and picking up these different patterns, maybe there's something the brain does that's like, all right, I'm just going to kind of skip through, you know, multiply the game, you know,

piece moving by 10 and then it's just like ah I see what is kind of unfolding here yeah we kind of pick up on their patterns too and it helps us to be more informed about our own game and kind of pick up the computer aspects too

Well, you know, what's interesting about that is I think we've got like the Tesla, what is it called? The Optimus robot that they want to release. We got a bunch of these robots that are going to start showing up places, right? It may not be in households right away, but someone's going to buy those things as soon as they're released. And they're going to be popping up all over the place. You assume that they're going to know chess, right?

because they probably have chat GPT brains. And to be able to, I think, sit down with like a humanoid thing and of all the things to play, it feels like chess would be the most natural. It'd be kind of weird to play Monopoly with your house robot. But like to sit there and play chess and have it teach you

And it can play in any style. You could literally say to it, like, be 5% better than me. Yeah. So that you don't feel like an asshole. Like, you feel like you had a chance. Yeah. But you get a little better every time, and then it gives you some coaching afterwards. That'd be incredible. Dude, I'd be all about that. Yeah. In fact, that's the main thing I've been thinking about why I want to get one of those robots. And they could do loads of stuff, like your laundry or whatever. I don't care.

Forget my laundry. I'd like to sit down and be like, can you tell me why I'm still shit at chess? I need to get better at this game. It could figure it out. Oh, yeah. I believe it. Yeah. I'd be the best teacher. Yeah. You can go through it. I mean, you can do it.

probably now with chat GPT but yeah it's it's too boring I'm not moving the other side and then reading yeah exactly with a robot you could actually just have them talk to you in person feels like actual coach or something I never would have thought about it like that that's uh I would be happy if the robots were used like that dude I'm pumped for it yeah yeah they're probably just gonna be used to kill us yeah pretty much sadly we don't get to enjoy those type of things

Were you surprised to hear, and, you know, Rogan is always banging on about nootropics. He loves them. You know, we're banging some zins right now. Nootropics. But I was kind of surprised to hear that

Magnus doesn't really have a regiment for that. Yeah, me too. I mean, like Rogan was saying, like, why not try to take these supplements that could just elevate your game just ever so slightly if you truly want to be the best of the best of your field. Yeah.

But I also kind of feel like Rogan was kind of pushing to promote his own little brand. Oh, he was a bit. Yeah, he was. I was surprised he didn't bring it up. Honestly, I think I think that he's that into it and he probably had to stop himself because he knows how shitty that would sound. Yeah. And he was probably like, fuck, I did it again. But at the same time, it's like, you know, you're the like.

It's hard to deny that Magnus is not a genius. Right. Like, for all the ways that we throw that word around, it's like we give it to, I don't know, Stephen Hawkins, right? That's reasonable. I don't know who else gets to be called geniuses, but, like, people that really stand out like that, he has to be that. Yeah. Because this isn't exactly...

a physical sport. This is all coming from the brain. He's that good. And then you, you would think, well, you know, if you're Cristiano Ronaldo, you're taking all the supplements, right? Creatine, you're on it all and you're running all day. You're, you, you peeking. So what is he doing? Yeah. He's just like, Oh, I just try to sleep good. Yeah. It's like, dude, I don't that. No,

It's not enough. No, like he could be doing so much, but, um, I do find it kind of fascinating that he just kind of goes about his, uh, intuition about what's best for him. Like how he said that there was the one game that he showed up late, just wearing sweatpants where in the morning he just felt like he needed to go outside and he just went to go ski. And, um,

I honestly really admire that. I mean, sure. Like you could be elevating yourself with all these different supplements and training regimes, but, um, that he just trusts himself and his brain to know like what's best for him in that moment. Um,

Yeah. I think that's fascinating. Because, yeah, you're right. Because it takes away some of the beauty of his experience. And his experience is he's not here just for our entertainment. Right? Right. I'm sure a lot of people at the top of their game feel that they are. Yeah. And they have to perform, you know, like a LeBron James. It's like, I'm here for the fans or for the, you know, the winning and everything.

He wants to win. Of course. He wants that. But he also wants it to be this fun hobby. Yeah. And probably why he's taking a step back now, not just that he's done it all and he's getting a bit older, but maybe he doesn't find it as fun anymore. Yeah. I admire that. I mean...

I think that's still why he is able to perform at the top of his game. Like even just when it comes to learning, like when the new AI models came out, he was able to get excited about that. And it wasn't the same game that he knew anymore. And, you know, I think that does a lot for our intrinsic motivation and, you know,

I'm happy that he actually pursues that and stays true to it. Yeah. He was saying that they obviously play different. What was that one engine that he said isn't even that good, but they still keep it around because it does some weird shit? I think it's Layla. Okay. Like, it'll make some, like, fundamental blunders or some very elementary blunders to begin, but then in later games it could just make a move that's just, like, it doesn't make sense to any humans, but then it completely settles the game. Now...

Did they explain how that works? Like why it does that? I don't think so. Cause I never heard of this before, but it's kind of interesting. Like what I was thinking when I heard that is like, okay, so could you take this program? It has to be a program, right? Right. And then pump, plug it into some sort of AI and be like, all right,

do this but now have all the power that it doesn't have because he was saying it's not a very powerful engine yeah or something yeah so there's like the distinction between like the the deep neural networks and the actual like supercomputers that like i forget what the model was that he brought up that was like the size of a you know it was a computer the size of a building and now we're working with deep neural networks that are just like on a little hard drive

So if you combine those two powers, maybe it can do more of those complex calculations. But another point to that of why it makes those elementary errors is maybe it's sort of like this paralysis by analysis, what he also brought up, that it's thinking far too ahead and it doesn't realize the simpler moves. Right. But I also don't understand these AI systems well enough to truly understand how they work.

But it's nice to just take a guess. Yeah, exactly. Right? Right. I mean, I guess that's kind of in the same line as when he said that he was playing... Was it in New York? Like those...

chess guys in the park. Yeah. I think it was there that he said, so this older guy obviously been playing in the park forever and he plays so many games, maybe he didn't get the backstory reasonable, but he said he had a really strange opening that it just...

it doesn't make any sense to him. And he thought he'd seen it all. And it kind of led him into like a nasty trap. And this person just developed it himself. And what I liked about that is not to take anything away from this individual, but he's obviously not a grandmaster or someone that's ranked, you know, globally. However, he's still very good at chess and he's come up with this like bizarre, unusual trap. Probably works very well for him.

And you start thinking about that in terms of these strange programs, you know, and these AI neural networks that can just kind of weave this game in a new way. I wonder how far this can evolve. Is it just one of those games where it's like, it's been around forever. Here are all the openings. Here are all the closings. Don't fuck anything up. And then you'll be world champion because that's how the computers work. Or...

Is there, like, this whole new game? Because...

there's like billions of moves, right? Potential. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Immediately, it's like exponential on top of each other. - Right. - So could there be this like wild variation that we've never seen? - Oh, probably. It's this question of whether these computers can, you know, quote, "solve chess." - Yeah, solve it. - Find all these different possibilities and find the right moves to always play.

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these computers, these AI models could completely change the game and how we think of it, or if it truly is just something that's so statistically sound that we always have to play the best moves. I think that's the problem with those AI models is that

They're always making the best decisions possible. I think that the errors that humans make is what keeps the game fun. Doing the moves that are not always the best introduces different lines and different opportunities for people to be creative and capitalize on it versus always thinking...

hundreds of moves ahead and always making the best possible move. It would be interesting. Like obviously you're calculating the best move because it's the best move in a series of moves that thinks so many moves ahead. Right. But,

Also, it's kind of interesting to think, oh, not a blunder, but like a weird move. Yeah. Just kind of sets this chain reaction in place that ultimately becomes a strength. Yeah. It's like that kind of variation. I don't know if that's real.

And why I say that is because I don't know how they calculate the best move. Maybe it just is. Maybe it's the best move, best move, and the smartest computer gets there. I heard for a while that they were putting the engines against each other and everything was just becoming draws because they could anticipate, which to me at that time kind of suggested that

oh they both solve chess because if you just play your best game against the best thing it makes sense that no one wins right everything's a draw it's kind of like the game's done we need a more complicated game but who knows yeah who knows maybe maybe there's just a new you know let's get quantum computers in here oh my gosh like that's like next level

We need some like 4D chess for that. We need to invent a new one that worked this way up. Look, I really enjoyed this episode. I thought Magnus, you know, he's very similar to how he is in any time you hear him talk. And I really found that kind of refreshing. And also, I think Joe and Tony kind of...

fanboyed out a little bit there's there's something just magnificent about somebody that's really even if you don't appreciate chess everyone knows how fucking hard that is right and when you hear that this person is just the best it's like that must be special yeah very very cool

Very cool. I hope he comes on again. I really want to see the Netflix documentary coming out. It's going to be a bit click-baity, I think, but it's going to be exciting. And I'd be interested... What was the other guy's name? Hans Beeman. Yeah. I'd be interested for him to come on. I'm kind of hoping Rogan does. If he does, he needs to get it on pretty soon. Yeah. Because, you know, it's got to make sense for the...

But yeah, I'd like to hear his case. And I don't know. I feel like if he's a cheater, Rogan will get out of him. Oh, yeah. I would hope so, at least. And, you know, it's also good publicity for the game of chess, too. I mean, it was in the past. And, you know, with Rogan's audience, I hope it just gets more people to enjoying and loving the game. Oh, 100%. I mean, to be fair, yeah, that anal beads story really picked up. Yeah.

There was no one that didn't know about that. And no one even knows who wins the world or even gives a shit. Like maybe they've heard of Magnus, right? He's that big. But I can't tell you five top chess players. I should... I wonder if I could... No.

Yeah, I can't do it. It's embarrassing. I wish I could. I only know the content creator ones, but yeah, it's a good point. It's that shock value that really stands out. Awesome. Well, thank you, Hagen. And thank you, everyone, for listening. We appreciate you guys and gals. And we will talk to you next week.

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