cover of episode Conversations: From the Mythical to the Very Real, Ancient Women in Power w/ Stephanie McCarter

Conversations: From the Mythical to the Very Real, Ancient Women in Power w/ Stephanie McCarter

2024/11/15
logo of podcast Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! Greek & Roman Mythology Retold

Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! Greek & Roman Mythology Retold

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Liv Albert
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Stephanie McCarter
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Stephanie McCarter: 本书探讨了古代世界中掌握正式权力,而非通过男性行使权力的女性。这些故事并非发生在罗马或希腊,而是来自其他地区,这反映了罗马人对女性权力和‘他者’的复杂认知。古代世界对权力的理解是零和博弈,权力与男性气质紧密相连,女性获得权力意味着剥夺男性的权力。因此,在希腊和罗马人的观念中,女性的权力本质上具有去势作用。父权制利用女性的权力和能力,但不会让她们处于等级制度的顶端。书中大多数女性都对男性权力构成威胁,但她们并没有颠覆等级制度,因为古代世界对权力的理解是等级制的,而且权力是有限的。许多关于女性的故事,例如克利奥帕特拉溶解珍珠的故事,旨在让她看起来令人惊叹,从而将她异化。希普西波勒的故事,她成为女王的原因是男性(父亲或丈夫)的死亡或离开。利姆诺斯岛的妇女因为拒绝阿芙罗狄忒的崇拜而受到惩罚,她们杀死了自己的丈夫,并最终掌握了权力,她们的聪明才智和阴谋诡计被视为对男性权力的威胁。布狄卡的故事,她领导了反抗罗马的起义,她的故事既展现了反抗精神,也符合蛮族的负面刻板印象。关于布狄卡残酷报复行为的记载,其真实性存疑,可能是为了满足对蛮族的刻板印象而杜撰的。这些故事更多地反映了男性对女性权力的看法,而非女性权力的实际运作方式。关于克利奥帕特拉会说多种语言的故事,可能部分属实,但也反映了罗马宣传中对女性声音及其诱惑力的刻画,旨在将她描绘成危险人物。塞米拉米斯的故事,通过她用牛尸伪装成象的故事,将她描绘成一个超乎常人的东方女王,以此来异化她。许多女性掌权的故事中,女性获得权力往往是因为男性(父亲或丈夫)的死亡。父权制社会中,女性掌权往往需要通过推翻男性统治来实现,这反映了对女性自主权的控制。 Liv Albert: 认为女性掌权就能带来改变的想法是天真的,许多女性即使身居高位,也仍然受到父权制的制约,真正的平等需要改变权力结构本身,而不是仅仅更换领导者。古代世界中对女性的刻画,往往带有偏见和刻板印象,例如对亚马逊人和戈耳工的描述。我们需要批判性地看待这些故事,了解其背后的目的和动机,以及它们对我们今天如何看待女性权力和性别刻板印象的影响。克利奥帕特拉的死因,可能是罗马人为了贬低她而编造的。许多关于古代女性的故事,例如关于布狄卡和克利奥帕特拉的故事,都反映了权力斗争和性别刻板印象。我们需要认识到,这些故事的叙述者本身就带有偏见,因此我们需要批判性地解读这些故事。

Deep Dive

Key Insights

Why did Stephanie McCarter decide to write a book about ancient women in power?

Stephanie McCarter's interest in writing the book began 16 years ago when she struggled to find a comprehensive source for teaching stories about powerful women in the ancient world. She wanted to create a resource that focused on women who wielded official power without relying on men, offering insights into how Romans conceived of power and otherness.

What is the significance of the Amazons in ancient Greek and Roman mythology?

The Amazons are significant because they symbolize female power and otherness, often portrayed as Eastern and barbaric. Their stories illustrate how Greek and Roman heroes, like Hercules and Theseus, had to defeat powerful women to establish their own masculinity and dominance. Female power was seen as emasculating, as it denied men their share of power and masculinity.

How did the Greeks and Romans use myths about powerful women to reflect their own values?

The Greeks and Romans used myths about powerful women to explore themes of masculinity, power, and otherness. Stories like those of the Amazons and Medea were used to articulate the triumph of Greek and Roman men over foreign and chaotic forces, often symbolizing the victory of democracy and order over monarchy and disorder.

What is the connection between the Amazons and the Gorgons in ancient mythology?

Diodorus Siculus linked the Amazons and the Gorgons as races of warrior women, suggesting that Heracles killed them because his mandate was to ensure that men, not women, ruled. This connection highlights the ancient belief that women ruling was a threat to male power and order.

How did the Amazons challenge the Greek and Roman concept of power?

The Amazons challenged the Greek and Roman concept of power by demonstrating that women could rule effectively and even pose a significant threat to male heroes. However, their power was always framed as a zero-sum game, where their success meant a loss of power for men, reinforcing the idea that power and masculinity were intertwined.

What role did Boudicca play in ancient history, and how was she portrayed?

Boudicca was a Celtic queen who led a violent uprising against the Romans after her family was humiliated and her daughters were raped. She is portrayed as a complex figure, both sympathetic and brutal, with her speeches appealing to the concept of freedom while her actions fulfilled negative stereotypes of barbarians.

Why are Cleopatra and Boudicca significant in the context of ancient women in power?

Cleopatra and Boudicca are significant because they represent the extremes of how powerful women were portrayed in ancient history. Cleopatra, despite her intelligence and power, was made into a mythical, almost otherworldly figure, while Boudicca was both admired and vilified for her leadership and brutality.

How did the ancient world view the relationship between sex and power?

In the ancient world, sex and power were deeply intertwined. Women could wield power through their sexuality, but this was often controlled by men. Stories like those of Cleopatra and the Lemnian women illustrate how sex became a battleground for power, with women sometimes taking control over their own bodies and relationships, which was seen as a threat to male authority.

What is the story of Omphale and how does it reflect ancient views on gender roles?

Omphale was a Lydian queen who took power over Hercules, reversing traditional gender roles. In art and stories, she is depicted wearing Hercules' lion skin and wielding his club, while he performs domestic tasks. This story reflects the ancient belief that power and masculinity were inseparable, and any reversal of these roles was seen as emasculating.

How does the story of Dido in Virgil's Aeneid reflect the challenges of female power?

Dido, the queen of Carthage, is portrayed as a powerful and tragic figure who falls in love with Aeneas and ultimately commits suicide when he leaves her. Her story illustrates the challenges of female power, as she is depicted as overly passionate and unable to control her emotions, which leads to her downfall and serves as a cautionary tale about women in power.

Why is Cleopatra's death by snakebite seen as a propaganda tool by the Romans?

Cleopatra's death by snakebite is seen as a propaganda tool because it portrays her as overly dramatic and feminine, reinforcing the stereotype that women in power are hysterical and unfit to rule. The use of snakes also makes her death seem exotic and otherworldly, fitting the Roman narrative of her as a dangerous and foreign queen.

Who was Imani Reynes and why is she significant in the context of ancient African queens?

Imani Reynes, also known as Kandake, was a queen of the ancient kingdom of Kush (modern Sudan) who ruled during the time of Cleopatra's defeat. She led an incursion against Roman towns, toppled statues of Roman leaders, and resisted Roman expansion. Her significance lies in her ability to challenge Roman power, making her a rare example of an African queen who was not conquered by Rome.

How does the story of Zenobia challenge traditional views of female power in the ancient world?

Zenobia, the queen of Palmyra, challenged traditional views of female power by leading her kingdom in a successful resistance against Roman expansion. She was praised by the Romans for her intelligence and leadership, but her story also reflects the ancient world's ambivalence towards powerful women, as she was eventually defeated and paraded in a Roman triumph.

Chapters
The author discusses the genesis of her book, "Women in Power," which started as a class assignment 16 years ago. The lack of readily available resources on women in power in the ancient world pushed her to compile sources, leading to the book's creation. The Amazons, due to their unique position in challenging traditional power dynamics, are highlighted as a key focus.
  • The book "Women in Power" originated from a university course.
  • The Amazons' stories challenge conventional views of power in the ancient world.
  • The book aims to showcase women who wielded official power independently of men.

Shownotes Transcript

Liv speaks with Stephanie McCarter, whose was last on the show to talk about her recent translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses, this time it's all about ancient women in power, both the historical, the mythical, and the details somewhere in between.

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions).

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