How Anna Kendrick Went From ‘Pitch Perfect’ to Directing a Dark True-Crime Thriller, ‘Woman of the Hour’
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From Built It Productions, it's The Great Creators. Conversations about creativity with some of the most celebrated actors, musicians, and performers of our time. ♪

I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, actress and now director Anna Kendrick. I have said basically my entire career, oh, I don't want to direct. Those people are crazy. You know, I'm not doing that. I think the truth is that it's just too vulnerable to say that you want something if you are worried you might not get it or that you might get it and you'll fail.

You might know Anna Kendrick from films like Twilight, Pitch Perfect, and Up in the Air. She's been nominated for a Grammy, an Emmy, and a Tony, going back to her work on Broadway when she was just 12 years old. Now in her 30s, Anna's making her directorial debut with Woman of the Hour. It's based on the true story of the dating game killer Rodney Alcala. So in this episode of the show, how an actress known for lighthearted musical romps wound up directing such a dark film.

The connection between Anna's personal life and the roles she chooses, and the story of how George Clooney put her at ease on the set of Up in the Air. That's all coming up after this break. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals in all your favorite genres.

From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment. Like a stunning new full-cast production of George Orwell's 1984. Heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction like The Women by Kristen Hanna and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James.

Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com slash imagine and discover all the year's best waiting for you.

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Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus, enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply. Anna Kendrick was born and raised in Portland, Maine, and started performing in community theater when she was just six years old. I guess from a pretty early age, you kind of knew or felt like you wanted to perform in

When you were six, you were an Annie, right? In the community theater. So were you just one of those kids who was like always singing and just always just performing at home? I guess so. Yeah, I know that's pretty obnoxious. No, it's not at all. It's not obnoxious. I think a bunch of things can be happening at once. That's okay. I think that I do feel like.

There's a certain type of like child actor or theater kid that I have an aversion to as an adult. And I'm still trying to unpack if that's because it feels like such a reflection of me as a child or because I always felt like I was I was pretty aware of.

the ways in which I could be annoying to adults as a kid. And so I tried to, like, have a sense of...

I don't know, being an actual child, meaning like, I think that I was always, I was always called precocious. And I started to intuit that that was slightly code for a little annoying to adults. So I think that there were certain like,

theater kid qualities that I started to notice that I was like, okay, I'm not going to be that. You know, when I would audition for things, there was this kind of twee way that kids would be like, well, how old do you want me to be? You know, and it would get a little laugh. And I was always like, oh, brother, going for the cheap joke, you know. But I do think that

I had this desire to feel seen and to take up space because I was always the smallest kid in class. And I looked significantly younger than all of my classmates, which everyone told me when you get older, you'll love looking younger. But when you're a kid, like that's the worst thing you could possibly be to be in third grade and look like you're in kindergarten. That's a nightmare. So I, I,

think that performing may have been a compensatory thing for me. Yeah, I want to unpack this a little bit because there's a lot of self-awareness in what you're talking about and also self-consciousness, which I think is both healthy, but also I wonder if it's also- It's healthy, but-

In your 30s with some perspective. But like I've seen a video of you. There's a video of you in high society when you were 12. And I anticipated that reaction like, oh, God. But I see it. I'm like, wow, this is...

a 12-year-old child who's on Broadway who has to perform at the highest level. So you're like in the pros, right? It's like being an NBA athlete or a professional football player, like on the world's theater stage. And you have to have some of that. You have to be like that, quote unquote, a little bit precocious in order to succeed at that level. Yeah, I suppose that's true. I mean, it's funny, even as you're talking, I feel like

It was a lot for a child to take on. Like as an adult, it's easier for me to recognize that. And at the same time, I felt very protected by the other actors in that show. They really like took me under their wing and in both in kind of the day-to-day working of it all, but also they really seemed to emotionally invest in me. And they always spoke to me as though like,

In a very like, hey, I think you're going to go places kind of way. But also just in a like, I think that you are going to want to be intellectually stimulated. So like, here are some books you should read. Here are some movies you should watch. You know, my favorite film of all time, it's still the screensaver on my phone, is The Women. And that was introduced to me by, you know, two of the actresses in High Society because they thought I should see it. And...

And it felt, again, more like...

Or I should say it felt less like it was about, oh, I think you'll like this movie and more like, I think this is the kind of stuff that you should stay interested in. You know, a movie full of performances by really, really smart, talented women. Yeah. You're talking about the Joan Crawford film. I'm assuming the 1939 film. Yes. Yeah. OK. Not the remake. Right. No, no. That's Rosalind Russell on my screensaver. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, in some ways, like, I also imagine that

You know, I remember in my career, I was in radio for many years as a reporter. And back in like 2004, I went to CNN to become a TV reporter. And I remember somebody saying, you've got to jump out of the screen. It's different than radio. It's different than just being in front of a microphone. And it was so uncomfortable for me, but I understood it because you have to capture the attention of the person who is viewing that television report. And

And so I imagine that here you are, you're not a kid from an industry family. You know, a lot of the people on this show who are incredibly talented actors grew up in L.A. Their parents and grandparents were in the industry. And so, like, maybe genetically they inherited some of those qualities and were very good, but they had – they were sort of –

marinated in that world. Like you grew up in Portland, Maine, to parents who were not connected to theater or film. Like you were probably, I imagine, and I read you would take the Greyhound bus down to New York for auditions. You were an outsider in a sense. And maybe you felt like a little bit like not as sophisticated as the other kids who were, you know, grew up in Manhattan and were auditioning for those shows. Yeah, it's funny. I

I think my parents were always really interested and curious about the world, and that's a great gift. You talk about genetically inheriting certain things, but I was also kind of socialized to be curious and interested. My dad was a teacher. For a period, he worked in a bank, but he was really, really into Irish drama. Yeah.

So, you know, we would go and see plays at the local theater. And even as I'm saying it, I'm going, I also was lucky enough to be raised in a town that was a very small town, but that had a ton of culture. You know, like I saw Ibsen when I was like nine, you know, I,

I went and saw Waiting for Godot when I was probably 10. There was a lot that I wasn't necessarily keeping up with, but it was a really enriching area to grow up in. And I really took for granted that all of that stuff

existed in every town. And then, frankly, the more that I worked in the film industry and got sent all across America to shoot in different places, I was like, oh, this town is, I mean, six times the size of the place I grew up, but there's just like nothing here. I won't name names, but yeah, I think I really didn't fully appreciate how unusual that was until I was older. Yeah, Portland, Maine is a really special place. Mm-hmm.

When do you remember a teacher or a director, like somebody saying to you or your parents, like, she should really think about a bigger stage? Because Broadway at 12, right? I mean, so somebody must have said, you know, there's something that this kid has, a gift, and maybe you should think about really pushing this. Right.

Yeah, it's hard to say. I think maybe there was a dance teacher because I took dance and I was terrible at it, but I was certainly committed and a kind of voice teacher and choir director as well. And

And again, there was always that kind of determination to be seen and take up space where they – I think it was maybe my dance teacher suggested that I try out for the local production of Annie. And I was one of the little orphans in Annie when I was like six.

It was like, well, if nothing else, I can certainly be loud. So I don't know if... Gosh, I'm really trying to remember if there was a specific person, but it feels like the way that...

It all happened was like pretty convoluted. There was like a cousin's wedding on in Long Island. And while we were in Long Island, we like drove into Manhattan and met with a children's agency so that I could audition for the Broadway revival of Annie, which I think every little theater girl in America knew about at the time.

And I didn't get that job, but they sort of said that they should send me out for other things. And even when people ask me, like, how did you get your start? I'm always hesitant to like talk about like, well, there was this wedding in Long Island because it's just so not like the kind of

story that you should mythologize as like how you got your start. But there's not like a there's just not a great, like perfect moment that would fit some kind of narrative. Yeah. I mean, I don't think there has to be. Right. I wonder. I guess I always feel bad when I talk about it because I'm like, this is not interesting. No, I don't think there there is a sort of a perfect moment. I mean, I think about like

When I was eight, right, my mom made me and my sisters, and my sisters were happy to do, they're older, perform in a community theater version of Oliver. And I was one of the, you know, orphans in the, you know, singing, you know, whatever I was singing. Food, glorious food, I'm assuming. Food, glorious food. Yes, you're welcome. Thank you. And I was like the beginning and end of my theater career at age eight, right? It was fine, but it wasn't like something that really drew me in. But clearly-

I mean, maybe you mentioned feeling like you were smaller or that you looked younger or something, but there was something about being on stage and performing that made you feel alive. Well,

Well, I guess it's hard to put into words because even hearing you talk about it, I'm like, you didn't love it? Like, what's wrong with you? What are you talking about? There's part of me that probably has assumed until this very moment that the only reason that people didn't end up pursuing it for their entire lifetime is because they never tried it. So I don't know. It feels almost like trying to describe why you like pickles and why I hate pickles. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, it makes total sense. Like, I love cooking. And a lot of people are like, I hate cooking. I can't understand how somebody could hate cooking. Oh, that's so interesting. I hate cooking. Yeah. It makes no sense to me. To me, it's my zen time. All right. So you, I mean, you were in this play at age 12. And it's a big deal. I mean, High Society on Broadway. And you...

I know you mentioned that the cast really kind of protected you. But I would imagine at that point, you knew what you wanted to do with your life. And already at that point, you probably assumed it was going to be a life in theater. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think that I've always been pretty hypervigilant about –

The sense that anything good could go away at any moment. So I think even at 12, you know, I do this show on Broadway and there was already part of me that was like, oh God, like what if this never ever happens again? And then I'm, you know, I just like work as a waitress the rest of my life. And there's like a footnote that I occasionally tell people that I was on Broadway when I was a kid. And God, won't that be embarrassing? So-

Yeah, there was like always the worry that this was a total fluke. And, you know, that didn't it wasn't like, oh, I immediately found out I had nothing to worry about. You know, there were many years where it was like, oh, that might actually be what's going to happen. Yeah. I mean, you you described your high school experience is totally normal, which I guess maybe makes sense because maybe a lot of the kids didn't.

really kind of didn't register them that here was a kid who was on our Broadway, you know, Broadway show. And it was before you became obviously famous for films. But when you describe high school as normal, I mean, weren't you shuttling back and forth to New York on projects and auditions or...

Yeah, it is weird. I think there were there were certain like workshops for Broadway shows, which always felt like a big deal. And they were a big deal. And then like every time by the time the show would go to Broadway, I had outgrown the part.

So, you know, I would, yeah, I would sort of be, you know, absent for like two weeks and then come back and, and also explaining to like high school kids who are just not interested in theater that I was doing a workshop for a Broadway show. Like that doesn't sound like anything, you know? So I actually don't know if it was a bit of kids looking at me and going like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, sure. Whatever you say, Anna. Yeah.

But it felt like those worlds were really separate. When you finished high school, you moved to New York and you got another role, this time at the New York City Opera in A Little Night Music. And so I'm assuming like this is the beginning of your career, the assumption again, like I'm going to pursue a life on stage in theater. Yeah, that's 100% what I thought. And I think I also just didn't,

I'd never really gotten seriously close to any film or TV roles. So I would audition for them, but they never really went anywhere. And so it felt like, well, I'm at least getting close to theater stuff and then would occasionally, you know, get these jobs. And I absolutely thought, well, okay, I'm moving to New York to do this thing at City Opera. And then I'll try to stay there and...

And yeah, and make enough money to cover the rent basically. And then while I was there, it was the very, very first time I auditioned for and booked a pilot for a TV show. And so I thought like, oh, okay, I guess I'm going to go do this pilot. There's no way it's going to get picked up. So it's like a detour in Los Angeles. Yeah.

But I'm not going to be in Los Angeles. I'm a New York City gal. And there's a real snobbery, of course, that I happily engaged in of like, oh, I don't really live here. I'm going back to New York as soon as, you know, as soon as this is over. And then, of course, the money in TV is holy crap. It's so much better than the money in theater. So.

That show ended up getting a weird kind of mid-season pickup. So it was like six episodes. Then we filmed the second episode and the network decided, oh, no, actually, this is garbage. We're not going to make the rest of the show. But I still got paid for six episodes of television. And that was really something, even though I, you know, I was not getting like, you know, I.

I don't know, friends for Asia or money at all. But to me, it was a massive paycheck and certainly enough money to kind of keep me under a roof and with the lights on, especially in Los Angeles, where, you know, the cost of living was a little bit lower for for a good while. Yeah.

And that was it. I mean, once that happened, you stayed in L.A. I know. Humiliating. That's what I get for being a snob about it. Because, again, even during that time, I was like, any day now I'm going back to New York City. And then, yeah, this became home. I'm curious about I mean, I'm always curious about like.

fate and fortune and just things that happen for a reason. Because I read that you did, I think it was probably your first film, Camp, which is an independent film, right? And that happened because you had worked with, in high society, you'd worked with an actor or somebody in high society whose husband was directing that film. It was her cousin. Yeah.

Her cousin. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So this actress, Randy Graff, was in High Society. She was one of the people that told me to watch the film The Women, you know, really took me under her wing. And her cousin, Todd Graff, was directing this film Camp. And again, we did like a workshop for that movie when I was...

13 when High Society had just ended. And then three years later, they actually made the movie. And lo and behold, I still looked like a baby. So I made that movie. And really, when we made that movie, it was so held together with duct tape that we just kind of thought like, well, this isn't like a real movie. This is never going to like see the light of day. And then I think it was

in the aftermath of the show at New York City Opera, that that film, like, went to the Sundance Film Festival, which, again, was, like, that movie that we all just made as kids who'd never been in a movie before is going to, you know, the Sundance Film Festival. And that was all happening during that time, too. I do get confused about the timeline of all of these different projects. I mean, it's interesting because that film, I mean, it...

gets really good reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. It wasn't a huge box office hit. Certainly not. But it was seen, apparently, right, by the people who were writing up in the air. And they saw that film and they apparently thought of you for the role they were writing. That was rocket science.

Sorry, it's so convoluted. I know, I know. Oh, no, Camp led to Rocket Science. And Rocket Science led to Up in the Air. Led to Up in the Air, right. Yeah, sorry. So, yes. So Camp was seen by the director of Rocket Science. And that ended up being my first union film. You know, I just went in and auditioned. But I guess someone had seen Camp. And...

the film Rocket Science came out and again, it was the same story as Camp where like made no money but was certainly seen by a lot of filmmakers. And so then the role in Up in the Air was sort of written with me in mind, which I did not

know when you auditioned you did not you didn't know absolutely not I just thought I was kind of cannon fodder quite frankly you know like you're auditioning for uh like one of the lead roles against George Clooney and I was like well I know how these things go you know you just try to make the best impression you can on the casting directors so that they'll think of you for other things that you actually have a shot at getting and absolutely never thought that

I would get that part. I didn't even think the audition went well, quite frankly. So, yeah, that was even when my agents called me and they were like, I think we're going to get an offer today. I was like, no, I was in the room. Trust me, we're not getting an offer. I think and also I think rocket science would lead you to get asked to audition for Twilight, the Twilight films. Oh, that's right. Yes. Because Catherine Hardwick is.

the director of the first Twilight film was actually on the jury at the Sundance Film Festival that Rocket Sundance was at. And she was on the jury that gave that film like a special prize. And so I think she might have been the one that asked me to audition for that. Again, I didn't know any of that. And once again, auditioned with the idea that I was just there to try to make a good impression on the casting director. And so I was like, I'll just try to be funny and weird because I'm so obviously...

the right choice to play the kind of blonde, popular, athletic captain of the volleyball team who looks at the mousy brunette new girl of Kristen Stewart and is like, I don't even get why people like her. Like,

The audacity of me to be saying that. So I was like, well, I'll just try to be like weird and funny because I'm certainly not getting the job anyway. And it is one of those things where with both of those parts, with Twilight and with Up in the Air...

If someone had told me, like, you've got a real shot at getting this, like the director really wants you to do it, I probably would have messed up the audition. I probably would have been doing my very best impression of the kind of alpha athletic director.

you know, blonde girl and my very best, like super dramatic, you know, capital I important dramatic role for up in the air. And with both things, I was like, well, I'll just try to be weird and funny. There were a lot of things going for up in the air before it was released. Jason Reitman wrote it. George Clooney was starring in it. But that doesn't guarantee success, right? When you

When you got that job and you were on set and you were – did you – because that would change your – the trajectory of your career. That would kind of propel you and you were nominated for an Academy Award. That would – I mean, I don't think it's an understatement to say that would change your career, right? And so did you have any sense of that? Was there like an energy on set that you could feel like this film was going to be something different and special? I don't.

I guess at that point, I really didn't have a way to...

get that sense. Sometimes you do. But at that early stage in my career, I was just trying to kind of survive the day every day. And mostly I was thinking about trying not to get cut out of the movie while also sort of feeling resigned to the fact that, well, surely I'm going to get pretty much cut out of the movie because I

Also, at that time, I know that doesn't seem like such a big deal today, but, you know, a lot has changed in the last 15 years. And at the time, the idea of a young female in a movie opposite a huge male movie star was not in any way a romantic interest for that character was like, well, what are you doing in this movie?

You know, you're not really serving a purpose. So I just thought, like, well, this is all going to get cut out of the movie. Wow. But it was a lead role. I mean, it was a supporting role, but it was a major role in that film. Yeah. I mean, while I remember, like, even reading the script and thinking, like, why is this character still here? Like, I just wasn't used to reading scripts where...

you know you were either the girl you know the girlfriend or the wife or you were the girlfriend's best friend or something and you had two scenes so yeah i was just for a variety of reasons certain that this role was going to be deemed like ballast that could be chucked overboard

I mean, obviously, you've worked with many, many veteran, you know, several veteran actors, Meryl Streep and others. But at that time, I mean, imagine George Clooney was the first actor at that level that you were on screen.

film with and from a camera with. First of all, is it nerve wracking? Is there like, oh, I'm on with this kind of legendary actor? No, I was chill about it. It was really easy. No problem for young Anna.

How do you how do you I mean, what do you remember about about that experience and working with him? I'll say about George, you know, I've said this before that I think George is very, very good at remembering that he is, you know, in the minds of other people, you know, George Clooney and that he works really hard.

to make you forget that feeling and to be incredibly disarming. And the first day that we filmed together, we were doing this shot on a people mover in the airport. And it was, you know, a really small moment, but it was my first, I think it was my first shot in the film. And

I was, you know, kind of like nervously standing there waiting for them to call action. And George and I were far away from the crew because we were walking towards camera. And George went, oh, do you get nervous? Gosh, I get so nervous. I feel so insecure. And I was like, yes, totally. Yeah, totally. We're the same. I totally get insecure. And

Years and years went by before I thought of that moment again and thought, oh my God, he does not get nervous. He was not insecure in that moment. I'm sure he has insecurities and those things exist, but no, in that moment on a film set, you know, whatever it was day three for him, he was not standing there feeling really nervous and really insecure. And it was really a beautiful thing to say to me and a gift and really relaxed me. And I,

He was the kind of person and actor who was really, really aware of the people around him and how best to help them. And that became the kind of actor that I really, really wanted to aspire to be. I wanted to be someone who could potentially just aid an actor in whatever they were just told to do. If they're supposed to look more scared, I'll get more angry. And even like...

The focus puller, the director, the editor, like how can I be the most helpful coworker that I can be? And I actually found that that

really freed me up in a lot of ways because I do have a tendency to overthink and I think there was something about trying to incorporate all of these other departments into my brain that almost like quieted the noise, you know, it was like a very pleasing place for my ADHD as well so that I could like fill up my brain to capacity and it's like all that's left is instinct and

It was it's interesting because he was very intentionally or deliberately trying to just be disarming. Yes. Yeah. And it was really, really, you know, I feel a little corny saying it, but it was really a gift.

Um, because the idea that he's going, Hey man, we're both nervous and we're both insecure. Like it just, it was amazing. And, um, and you know, he would also see there were days where I would get really in my head and he would kind of mess with me on those days lightly. You know, he, like, I remember he had this nerf gun one day and he was just like shooting at me, um, during a scene where I was supposed to be really upset.

And it was like he could kind of gauge like, oh, she's gone too deep into her own mind. And he would kind of like mess with me a little bit in a totally playful, fine way. And then there was there's this scene. I think it's a scene where I'm it's the first time my character is firing someone over a video conference.

And that day I was also like super, super in my head and he did not mess with me at all. In fact, he stayed sitting next to me the entire day, like when they were changing the camera setups, I was like frozen in place and I didn't want to go, you know, sit in a green room or something. And he just like sat there with me and I would occasionally be like, can we run the lines again? And he'd be like, yep, absolutely. And just run the lines with me. And that's like,

really, really generous place to put yourself in because that stuff, I mean, we were shooting that thing all day and, you know, he could have like effed off and, you know, been at craft service and been joking around with the crew. And he was willing to put himself in the same energetic place that I was just to kind of help me get through a performance I was really nervous about. We'll be right back with Anna Kendrick after a quick break. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Great Creators.

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Welcome back to The Great Creators. I'm Guy Raz. Let's get back to my conversation with actress and director Anna Kendrick. I know that you've talked a lot about Pitch Perfect in your life because that was also a really successful series of films that, from the perspective of a film that would have mass appeal, it's just an amazing idea. It's teenagers, it's high school, and it's music, and it's songs that are familiar to people. And so, like, it...

It was a home run in every sense of the word from the get go. Tell me a little bit about that cast as an ensemble cast. You were with a lot of the same people for the what is like a five year period of making those films. Yeah. Longer, I think. Yeah. I'll say that.

Pitch Perfect has obviously brought me a lot of great things, but none better than those 10 women. You know, I think that I can be kind of a tough nut to crack sometimes. And frankly, I feel emotional even thinking about the fact that any of those girls like bothered to try to like stay in my life and be in my life. I'm like, why would anybody bother? And, you know, now they're like some of my closest friends. Wow.

To this day. Well, I know you've written, you wrote a piece in Vogue many years ago about your Oscars night with Aubrey. Oh, yeah. But I know that she wasn't in it, but I mean, Rebel Wilson and Elizabeth Banks. I'm trying to remember all the people in that film. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, we're all kind of like far flung. So sometimes, well, we're constantly in this state of trying to get all of us together in a room again. And I'm, you know, obviously very happy to say that everybody is very busy and very successful. And the only problem with that is that it does make it very, very difficult to have like a real kind of reunion.

But the best we can usually do is about six of us at any given time. It's kind of like a rotating thing. But yeah, I mean, I was texting with Rebel a couple of days ago and I'm texting with Brittany Snow yesterday. And, you know, Kelly Jekyll, who in the movie, the whole joke is that she like can't speak. We won't like let her speak in the movie. But she's the actress in the opening scene of the film I directed. So, yeah, they've stayed like a really, really important part of my life.

I'm curious about a role you took in 2013, this film Drinking Buddies with Jake Johnson, who, as you know, has been on the show and you've subsequently worked with him on other projects. That film was mainly improvised. It was kind of very loosely scripted, which sounds like an incredibly exciting opportunity, but probably also...

little scary when you're used to having a script and really perfecting that role and embodying the character that a writer writes because a writer has a vision and you want to I would imagine as an actor you want to really live up to that vision but here here you're you're getting kind of a script and you're like well just make it what you want to be it what you want it to be yeah and to be clear kind of a script I

I don't think I was ever handed a sheet of paper the entire time that we made that movie. It was improvised, yeah. Yeah, it was like we were sort of verbally told about an outline generally. And then we'd be shooting and sometimes the director would just be like, hey, the two of you just talk about something. Talk about whatever you guys might be watching on TV lately or something like that. And yeah, you're right. It was one of those projects that you almost take on because it makes you feel really nervous sometimes.

And it was interesting because I think we all...

You know, it was mainly me, Jake Johnson, Olivia Wilde and Ron Livingston. And I think we all came on to it and confessed to each other like afterwards that our main concern walking into the movie was, oh, God, what if I show up and I can't think of anything to say? Right. Of course, that's what you think when you when you know that there's an improvised movie is like, what if I can't think of a of a perfect thing to say and that by the end, you

you actually found, oh, what's harder is to be willing to just sit and listen. It's actually really easy to come up with stuff to say, especially for people who've been performing for their careers. But it was kind of a relief to find it's much more interesting when we're all willing to really listen. You know, what a great lesson for your life as well, Anna. And it was really rewarding and also inspiring

easily the most terrified that I've been in the middle of a scene before because

There was something that I didn't expect, which was, oh, when a writer is not generating the words for me, it means that when I film a scene with Ron Livingston where we kiss and I'm dating Jake Johnson in the movie, we wrapped that scene. And that was also a nerve wracking scene to shoot. But we wrapped that scene and it occurred to me, oh, God, I have to tell Jake. And I like kind of burst into tears. Wow.

Because I was like, oh, I have to tell Jake. Like, I have to tell him what happened. I have to find the words. You know, like no writer is going to be like, I think it starts with like a, hey, listen. You know, it was like I had to come up with the confession. And it was like upsetting. Yeah.

Yeah. When he was on the show, he described your chemistry like – he said it reminded him of how Dan Aykroyd, who's also been on the show and also talked about his partnership with John Belushi. That was the analogy that Jake Johnson made, that there's this chemistry and this –

ability to really riff on each other in the work you guys have done together because you've done a bunch of things together. Yeah. I don't just love Jake. I have so much respect for Jake as a – again, it's almost like as a coworker. He and I have talked about how we are not that, I don't know, confident or arrogant about our own talent, but we're pretty confident about our work ethic, I guess. And

And that's something that we wanted to really develop. And so when I'm working with Jake, I feel like I'm not only in wonderful hands, I feel like I want to work as hard as Jake is working. And

I find him absolutely delightful. I think there's also just like a weird chemistry thing where I find him so wonderful. Like basically whenever he's on a podcast, I'm like, oh, I'm listening to that episode. Because I don't know. He's also like so different from me. This kind of like Chicago tough guy is so not a personality that I –

have spent much time around that I really kind of delight in, you know, everything that he brings to the table. So, yeah, I mean, I love him. I would work with him on anything. I'm curious in, I mean, I hesitate to use the word evolution because every role is an evolution, right? Like you want to grow as an actor. And so, but a lot of the work you had done really in the sort of first part of your career was kind of stagnant.

of sort of comedy adjacent or comedy, right? Or even the film Trolls, right? The animated film and of course musicals. And then you did Alice Darling, which was, I think it was, I mean, it's a bit of a departure because it was a

it was a difficult character. You played a character who's in an abusive relationship. And I'm not sure if that was sort of the first kind of that type of role that you had. I can't exactly remember, but I think it was, right? Yeah, for sure it was. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I had just gotten out of an abusive relationship and I was sent this script. Someone found this script and I

Yeah, it was almost like that doesn't happen in life. It's not like, oh, hey, here's something that I'm going through right now. Is there just like a really cool script out there about that exact thing? And it's funny, I didn't.

I don't think I've really talked about this, but I didn't tell anybody that the movie was actually about psychological abuse. I didn't tell my therapist. I didn't tell my best friends. I sort of told everybody that it was, oh, it's like a movie about friends in a cabin and, you know, just like about like their pasts and stuff. I was just really vague about like this movie I was making because I didn't want anybody to talk me out of it. I think it was a...

potentially difficult thing for me to do in the immediate aftermath of me going through something very similar. But it's almost like the act of trusting myself was what was most healing about it. You know, I think a lot of people talk about making art as though it's

you know, if you just make a movie about this trauma that you went through, like you've done it, art has healed you. And if that's people's experience of it, then that's wonderful. And it's simply not the case for me, but because it was a role that was so different from anything that I've done before. And because frankly, I,

I did spend my career trying to be the Clooney, the friend to all departments, to get like the gold star every day and be the A student. I'm used to finishing a take or a scene and having the people behind Video Village and go, oh, that was great. Oh, yeah. And I'm going to use that moment and, you know, and kind of going like, oh, great. I got all the attaboys that I needed for today and I feel great now.

And I'm going to lay my head down and feel really happy with how the day went. And this was the first time that I didn't want to pursue that. I think understandably, there were some people behind the monitors going like, you're not really doing anything. You're not doing that.

thing you do, you know, go, come on, Anna, do the thing where you're kind of quirky and kind of charming, and you get the audience on your side. And I really needed to believe that I could keep the audience on my side through a piece of this woman's life that was not the most endearing. You

you're kind of like, hey, Alice is kind of the worst. She's being not that great to her friends and she's kind of a bummer. And I really wanted to not rely on all the kind of tools that I'd put in my toolkit over the years to know like, okay, I delivered a performance that, you know, that will make the dailies feel really vibrant and

And again, sitting in the discomfort of knowing like, I don't think the producers are all that happy with how it's going, but I'm going to trust that I know how to build this performance. And I believe that I'm doing the right thing. And I also know from experience what this feels like and what it looks like and how shut down you get. And that's more important to me to put on screen than it is to kind of

put something momentarily dazzling on screen just to keep the audience on board. So during that period of time, during the filming, I mean, given your own sort of experience and your own history, which I'm assuming you hadn't really talked about with people on set, like they probably didn't know. Was it, I mean, it must have been like a shattering or a difficult experience

I mean, you talk about Pitch Perfect and I imagine it was energetic and vibrant and it was the different energy. But here you are in a role that also might be a bit re-traumatizing for you. Well, I'll actually say it was almost the opposite. I think it was a really, really small movie and it was filming kind of during COVID-19.

And I would say that almost every single actor, writer, director. Oh, well, not the director, but actor, writer, hair and makeup, you know, every department costumes like they showed up because they read the script and they were like, I've I know exactly this experience. So if anything, I was surrounded by other people who'd been through something really similar. And it felt like a really, really warm, safe place.

Did it have that effect? I mean, you sort of alluded to this idea of like art heals everything and obviously it doesn't and it didn't. But was there, I mean, was there an element of, I don't know, of just maybe catharsis isn't the right word, but of feeling like this is helping me move a step forward? Yeah. I mean, again, I think not so much because I sort of

lived out something on screen that I had lived in my real life. It's not quite that linear, but because...

I knew that in spite of the fact that certain scenes didn't have the kind of like fun energy that maybe the producers hired me to give, I believed that I was doing right by myself and right by people who had lived through something similar. And again, that was more important to me than getting the kind of gold star after a take.

And that was very cathartic, very healing for me to trust. Like I've built up a platform of confidence when I'm on a film set, but I'm also kind of in uncharted territory here. But I am going to trust myself. And in that relationship, that was really the problem was like I wasn't sure if I could trust myself. Yeah.

What's interesting to me about that film is you also executive produced it. And I think that that leads to the latest piece that you've put out because you've directed a film. And we're going to get into this, your new project. But I wonder whether you started to think about already on...

you know, working on an analysis and at that point thinking, I want to do this. I mean, you've worked with actors, some of whom might have been your heroes, who also directed films. Did you start to think about that as something you were interested in doing? Well, I think the real answer is a little embarrassing. Yeah.

I have said basically my entire career, oh, I don't want to direct. You know, those people are crazy. You know, I'm not doing that. And I think the truth is that it's just too vulnerable to say that you want something if you are worried you might not get it or that you might get it and you'll fail. So.

I had been kind of pushing that down and convincing other people and kind of convincing myself that I just wasn't – I'm just not really interested. But it came from a fear of maybe failing at it? Yeah. I mean, I suppose that's why we mostly lie to ourselves, isn't it? Well, I mean, it makes sense because you were –

You had this and have this reputation. I mean, you describe people saying, hey, can you give us that sparkle or that? And there is that thing that you bring to your characters. I mean, you can sing, you can dance, you can do all these things and you've done it successfully. And I can understand the impulse, the fear of like trying something in and just sucking at it. Right, right. I mean, well...

To your point, basically, you know, I got the script for Alice Darling and the script for Woman of the Hour, like right around the same time, like probably at least the same month. And, you know, as happens in Hollywood, certain films just come together faster. And I was really attached to Woman of the Hour as an actor for about two years.

And then, you know, the other thing that happens in Hollywood is that sometimes a movie that's been, you know, puttering along will just come together way too, way too quickly. And, you know, it's like, OK, we raise the money. We could start on this date. And if we don't start on this date, like it might all disappear again.

And at that point, we didn't have a director. And you were committed to Woman of the Hour. You were committed to being in that film. Yes. So I was, you know, I was attached as the role of Cheryl. And we started kind of scrambling to find a director. And I think about 48 hours into that, I really started to feel like,

oh, no, I think I'm going to pitch myself to direct the movie. And even that thought, I was trying to kind of push it down. And I really would have loved it if someone with a ton of experience and a lot of confidence just swooped in and said, I want to direct this movie. And at the same time, I think I would have been really heartbroken. And I also think I would have probably felt like I've been attached to this movie and thinking about this story for two years. And like, you're going to come in and tell me what the movie is?

So I ended up pitching myself in a frankly kind of ambivalent way. Like, I was sort of like, if you guys don't think I can do it, I just want to do whatever's best for the movie. So if you guys don't think that I'm the right person, that's totally fine. And I ended up getting the job, which was completely terrifying. But...

But, oh, no, you – what was the thing that you just said? I was bringing it full circle. I promise. I mean this idea that this fear of like succeeding at other things and then – Oh, right. Right. Maybe trying something and not – which –

That's the story of pushing your comfort zone. Right. Pushing out of your comfort zone. You've got to be prepared to suck at something. Maybe. You didn't. We'll talk about this. The film is amazing. So I pitch myself and I get the job. And there was a period where I was like, Anna, what have you done? You had a very comfortable life. You were in a really nice groove. No problems. Why are you rocking the boat here, man? You worked so hard to build...

you know, this life and to carve out a space for yourself in an impossible industry. Like, what are you doing? And I just felt so compelled by this story. And I felt like,

Well, I might fall on my ass, but I also think there's a real possibility that that this is what's supposed to happen. And then I think there were several moments where like I found out because I actually started working directly with the screenwriter and found out that Ian McDonald, the screenwriter, is also from my small hometown. And it was just kind of like, oh, this is sort of meant to be. I'm not that woo woo, but that was kind of a woo woo moment.

Stay with us. We'll have more with Anna Kendrick right after this break. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Great Creators. Welcome back to The Great Creators. I'm Guy Raz. Here's more of my conversation with actress Anna Kendrick. When you took this on, because I want to talk about the story, because the story is really just so shocking, and it's a really intense film. Mm-hmm.

When you took that on and you're like, oh, man, I'm in this comfortable position. I've been making these films. Like, everything's going well. Why am I taking this on? Which you have to do, right? It's just part of...

It's just part of growing professionally. But did you go through any periods of just having that anxiety and like having sleepless nights and saying to yourself, oh, God, what have I got myself into? Absolutely. And I think I know myself well enough to know that although I could tell myself, well, I just love a challenge and all of that. And that's not untrue. That's probably part of it. I think that.

there was something about the fact that I needed to start do I needed to. Well, first of all, I needed to start like crewing up the movie. I needed to like interview casting directors, interview cinematographers, interview line producers and production designers because we were going to be hard prepping the movie in six weeks. Well, I think the fact that it was such a short timeline and such an impossible situation is also the thing that

I cannot back out. I just have to put one foot in front of the other. There isn't time for me to panic and go, you know what, you guys scratch that. We should find someone who's more experienced. I shouldn't do this. And I think if it had been six months later, that's what I would have done. And the fact that I just had to like push myself off a cliff and go, well, I guess we're going to find out if I packed this parachute correctly while we're on the way down. I mean,

meant that I just didn't have a choice but to keep the train on the tracks. When you're in a film and you've got a role, it's already hard enough because you've got to know those lines and embody that character and perform, right? Because you're part of a group of people and every part of that character

has to perform to create the whole. But here you're doing that and you're also the person who's the CEO of the project. You're in charge of the whole project. You're managing all these people, interviewing all the different people

you know, parts that are going to make it into a whole. So how did you manage that, that workload and just kind of compartmentalizing? Okay, I've got to be the lead character. And now I've got to be the, you know, the manager, the CEO of this production? Well,

Well, I'll say that the acting piece did come up a lot. Like every producer, everyone I even interviewed about the movie was like, hey, are you worried about directing this movie and acting at the same time? And I was terrified about every part of the directing aspect because

But I was like, I've been acting on film for 20 years. You know, this is like, you know, blinking while you're chewing gum to me. I mean, the chewing gum thing I've never done, but I'm pretty used to blinking. So if anything, I felt like and it sounds like I'm being glib or trying to be funny when I say this, but.

If anything, I really felt like, hey, at least the lead actress and the director are going to be on the same page every day. Like, I'm serious. I think it would have been a lot more challenging for me to try to get exactly what I pictured into the mind of another human being. It was kind of one less thing for me to worry about.

Tell me about it. But by the way, when you said that, it reminded me a little bit of the of the scene in Pitch Perfect where you're you do the audition with the famous scene with cups and you're sitting on the floor. Yeah. And it's a very your expression is very casual, not arrogant, but just like, yeah, I can I can I can do this. Sure. And you just give me that cup and you do it. And then they're kind of blown away because you're not standing up. You're not sort of you're not making yourself big. You're just on the ground doing this. And it's just like another just like another day.

Yeah. God, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I suppose that's the character. She's sort of always trying to prove that she's too cool for school. Right. But yeah, I do think that I probably came off a little arrogant when I was like telling people, no, I'm not worried about the acting piece. I'm really worried about the directing piece. But yeah, the acting piece, guys, come on. What are we talking about? But it's not. I mean, you came to that generalization.

job with a lot of experience. So it's like you've done the rep, so you knew what you had to do. But the directing part was, that was different. Yes, yes. And I'd been thinking about that character for so long, for two years. And I really, I really began to feel that for my character in Woman of the Hour, the question in every scene is,

do you see me as human or do you see me as something else? And that is kind of the dissonant chord at the end of every scene, particularly in the first act. And by the end of the movie, she has her answer and it's not a great answer, but it's at least kind of resolution for her. And I'd begun to

in those two years in a way that maybe was overstepping, like started to, you know, feel like, ooh, if it were, if it were up to me, you know, I would maybe tweak that scene or do that, but it's not my movie, so that's fine. But I mean, once I even allowed myself to really consider it, you know, in those like 48 hours before I pitched myself,

The first scene that I could really see in my mind was the parking lot scene toward the end of the film. Because I think there's something about our senses in those moments of danger. And I'm actually curious to know if this is something you relate to or if it is a bit more of a gendered thing that...

There are times, you know, that I certainly can say for women where everything feels fine, everything's going great. And 10 seconds later, you're like, how did I feel like everything was fine 10 seconds ago? Like, this is terrifying. Something is terribly, terribly wrong. And I feel like I'm in real danger here. And

that's really where you start to go, okay, what can I see in my peripheral vision? What can I hear? Do I hear even a couple arguing two blocks down? Would they hear me if I screamed? And I knew that I wanted that scene to play in like mediums and close-ups until that moment where the scene really turns. And then the camera jumps wide because it's almost like

the inner experience of going, okay, how empty is this parking lot? Do I see any movement? Is there a car with its headlights on? Is there any hope for me right now? And that got really exciting to me. And, you know,

It's a really terrifying scene, as is the opening scene of the film. And in answer to your question, I think women certainly experience this more and more deeply and more regularly. But I think it's a really terrifying scene.

But there's a question that I, at least, and certainly other men, experience versions of this. You know, I was mugged at gunpoint once in my life. So, you know, things happen. And sometimes you're aware of your – you're in the city. It's night. It's empty. And you're just aware of the emptiness. And there's a feeling of vulnerability. This story, I guess we should explain it because people listening may not have seen it yet or don't know it. I didn't know the story of Rodney Alcala. It's based on a true story.

I went down a rabbit hole about this guy because it was so shocking to me. He had committed – he had assaulted a child and another two children and then managed to get away with it and moved to New York from California and changed his name. I mean, this was all possible in the 70s and the era before –

Yeah.

Yeah, no, well, I mean, there's a couple things here, right? One is, again, like, I'm aware that I'm known mainly for lighthearted musical roms. So, you know, why this? Why now? And, you know, I'll say that I think that for a lot of my life, I had what I would call a casual interest in true crime. And that, I'd forgotten this until really recently. I, like, saw an old journal entry about

that I became a bit more obsessive about true crime in the aftermath of this really devastating relationship. I even wrote in my journal that I was like, oh, I've gotten really obsessed with the Chris Watts family annihilation case because I think I'm like sublimating my own frustration and grief and trying to kind of like

you know, get to the bottom of that guy's psychology as though that will bring me some kind of answers or resolution in myself. And,

And, you know, so look, I got this script and the log line was, you know, kind of what you've just talked about. A serial killer in the 1970s actually went on the show The Dating Game. He went on The Dating Game. In the middle of all of this. This guy was on the – National television. He had already been – he was already on like most – he'd been arrested. He'd been in jail already. He'd served in jail for sexual assault. Mm-hmm.

Then he's on the dating game as a different person. Yeah. I mean, you would think it would not happen today, but it's totally shocking. You could see the video of him on the dating game in 1978 after he's already committed to

And been in jail for serious crimes. Even the way you're talking about it, you can see why you get that script and you go, oh my God, oh my God. How did this happen? And then I read the actual screenplay and it was really emotional and it was really kind of beautiful, which feels like a really strange thing to say about this story. But it really had all those seeds already in it of...

how much beauty was inside of these women. And you just absolutely fell in love with them. And even though in, in, I think there are some pieces of the movie where you don't know what's going to happen and it is pretty surprising, but in some cases you already know, you know, where this is headed and you're just desperate for these women to find a way out of these situations. And, and,

there was something just really powerful about the way it was written. And there were, you know, there were all these drafts over the two years. And Ian is a really kind of prolific writer. And there were all these beautiful, shocking pieces of imagery that he would use. And I remember, again, you know, over the course of those two years thinking, well, gosh, if it were up to me, I would take that piece from that draft and, you know, and kind of

put the puzzle together in exactly the way that I saw it. And then there was even the first thing that I wanted to do when I started working with Ian was change the ending. There was this detail that from, you know, the real case that I found to be easily the most kind of haunting and fascinating piece. And I was like, we have to put that in the movie. And we worked really hard to figure out how to kind of make it

the ending while also honoring the fact that in a story like this, there's really no such thing as a happy ending. You know, like we wanted the movie to have something that felt really emotionally satisfying for the viewer while then still being honest about all the ways in which these systems and the culture was not set up to support victims and support survivors. And this isn't a happy story. You know, there was...

after the events of the film, there actually was kind of this, frankly, like ready-made Hollywood story of this young detective, this 27-year-old guy named Craig Robeson, who came on the scene and actually cared and took it seriously. And then there was the story of the prosecutor, Matt Murphy, who kept him behind bars and connected the dots on a lot of these cases. I was lucky enough to meet both of them, and they've been incredibly generous with their time with me. But

That part of the story, while it is factually accurate, would have been really emotionally dishonest because after 11 plus years of this guy kind of operating without consequence, that story doesn't really honor, you know.

Right.

I think – I mean I think that this role in this film will be a really significant turning point in your career because as you say, you have been known as a bright and sunny and – and that's great. You want to keep those things, right? But it's also important to be perceived as somebody who can do a variety of different things and roles.

I read that you described this film, this experience as the most rewarding of your life. Yeah, gosh, that sounds funny because of the subject matter. But I think getting to work with all of these people was really the most extraordinary experience because the amount of respect and admiration that I have for

every single person that showed up in front of the camera and behind the camera just can't be overstated. And the fact that they were willing to trust me, um,

was really meaningful to me. And frankly, probably was the thing that actually did sort of keep me up at night staring at the ceiling, because I, I really wanted to do right by all these people who had worked so hard, and given so much of themselves to the movie. You know, I think as an actor, I did start to notice, you know, just the nature of a film set is such that

Every single day, someone on set kind of saves the movie. And that is just not an exaggeration. Like, someone will go...

hey, in this scene, is the audience supposed to understand that this guy knows her? And it's like, oh, God, yeah, no, wait. If we don't change something, yeah, that's not going to work at all. It's going to be a nightmare. And that happens, like, literally every day. And I did know that, but...

As a director, I was really, really experiencing it. You know, my kind of favorite example was the key grip. Dave Askey in pre-production told me and my cinematographer, like, hey, I noticed you guys are shooting, well, actually the parking lot scene. I know you guys are shooting that at X location. And we were like, yeah. And he was like, have you guys been out there at night? And we were like, no.

So we drove out there late at night and it turned out it was right by a piece of the highway where a lot of large trucks go late at night. So it was loud. And we were like screaming at each other to even hear us like lamenting, oh God, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? And yeah, so we had to kind of scramble and, you know, find a new location. And then, you know, one of the producers kind of saves the movie by like,

managing to sweet talk someone who was very hesitant to give us the location that we did end up using. And, you know, just just so many ways that people are willing to really show up and kind of go the extra mile because like that's not his department. And even if it was his department, he would have been within his rights to go. Your funeral, guys, is not my problem.

But yeah, he's not even in the sound department. And he was like, I think that you guys are maybe going to have a problem. And it would have been a total nightmare if we had to do that entire scene in ADR, you know, replace all the dialogue afterwards. You can always kind of feel that in a movie. So there was just there was stuff like that every single day. And you do feel like.

oh my God, I just, I just want to make this movie halfway decent because, you know, what on earth did I do to deserve people like extending themselves in that way? Hmm.

I'm curious. I mean, the reviews so far have been really, really great. And I'm sure as more come in, it'll be really exciting for you to watch that. Of course, reviews don't necessarily matter, but there's a validation there. I wonder, and I hesitate to ask this question because whenever I have a new project that I'm talking about or promoting on another podcast...

I really hate it when people are like, what's next for you? But, you know, you're just like, what do you mean what's next? I've just released this thing. But given that this is your directorial debut and it's your project, I mean, of course you should bask in the glory of the release and everything that comes with it. But as you think about, I mean, you've got a whole long career ahead of you. You're still so young. And I hope that doesn't –

sound like the same way people said that to you when you were eight. I mean that in the best way. Do you think that, did you catch the bug a little bit? Do you think, you know, I want to do more of this directing and acting? I would really love to direct more. I think honestly right now the most daunting element is finding something that I am as passionate about as this script. Well, I also was

Mostly responding to material that was kind of increasingly dark. And that felt right to me. That just felt what I was drawn to. But I also was sort of like, oh, my God, I'm just going to live in that space for like two years minimum. Yeah.

And then I kind of turned a corner recently. I think I just personally was feeling like a little bit lighter. And I noticed I was responding to scripts that had a little more energy. Even if that energy was like aggression, it was maybe a signal of improvement in my inner world or something. So I don't know. I found that very interesting. And I can't really say what would jump out at me. But I guess...

There is a bit of a life imitating art thing that's happened where, you know, in the aftermath of a really bad time in my life, I made Alice Darling and I made this movie. And, you know, obviously, I don't mean to like put my my personal world in a microscope like that. But I think it might signal a good thing if I start responding to lighter fare again.

Anna Kendrick, thank you so much. Thank you. That's Anna Kendrick. Her directorial debut, Woman of the Hour, is now available to stream on Netflix. You can find out more information on our show notes page at thegreatcreators.com slash Kendrick. And if you want to hear more interviews with actors like Jake Johnson, Hilary Swank, and Rashida Jones, just scroll down in your podcast feed or visit thegreatcreators.com slash episodes.

Thanks so much for listening to our show this week. If you enjoyed it, please make sure to hit the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode. This episode was produced and edited by Kevin Leahy. Thanks also to Malia Agudelo and Kayla Rosenbaum. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Great Creators from Built It Productions.