#140: AI 2041, Sci-fi Writers in Web3, Chaoshan Culture and Chinese Philosophy & Metaphysics with Chen Qiufan
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Kia ora, ni hao and hello. Welcome to the Chewy Journal Podcast. I'm your host, Camille Yang. My guest today is Chen Qiufan, also known as Stanley Chen. He's an award-winning Chinese science fiction writer. His fiction, described as "science fiction realism," focuses on the internal struggles of individuals during times of accelerated change.

And recently, Chen Qiufan collaborated with Kai Fuli to co-write and publish a novel called AI 2041. In today's episode, we talk about some technologies mentioned in the book, sci-fi writers in Web3, Chaoshan culture, and Chinese philosophy and metaphysics. I hope you enjoy the show.

I'd like to start with the book you co-wrote with Kai-Fu Lee, AI 2041. Can you walk me through the journey of making this book? How did you come up with the idea to co-write together? Thanks for having me here. And this book is a very unconventional collaboration. So because me and Dr. Kai-Fu Lee, we had overlapping time back in the day when we worked for Google.

I think it was 2019, before the pandemic. He reached out to me and talking about this idea of collaboration. It's like a very unusual format, blending science fiction with nonfiction together because he used to be a very successful bestseller author, AI superpower. But he thinks that maybe...

storytelling is more attractive to younger generation. So like science fiction and movies is super popular all around the world. So that's how he came up with this idea. And I think we spent almost half year to figure out what's the structure and what's the roadmap, like everything looks like because nobody ever

did something like this before

So we actually interview a lot of people from the industry, from the university research institute, working on AI relative subjects and try to understand what is going on really in the field. At the very beginning, I think it's really difficult because we totally have a different background.

He studied computer science back in the day and he's doing all this kind of investment. But me, I'm more like an artist, like a writer. So I work...

by myself. So it's like we need to adapt it to each other. So it's like a lot of like back and forth discussion, debating about each stories. And of course, we have to set up the tone like this book supposed to be very positive and telling the people about the real thing about AI and how to make the speculation

of the future and i think that's the right attitude we hold on to so i think this is something we agreed on and and we started from there so it took us a while to like figure out everything and and i think in and it took us two years to finish the book and and get it published

What are some AI-related technologies you guys picked up in this book? Like from computer vision to natural language processing, deep fake and alpha fold, like protein folding structure prediction. And of course, there's a lot of peripheral devices like drones and robots and

and autonomous vehicle. So I think everything we talk about is actually exist at the present, but we just push it a little bit forward, like how it will become in the next 20 years and it will totally change our daily life. Yeah, I think among all the technologies you guys mentioned, I think deepfake

is the one worried me most. But in your story, it's a kind of a happy ending, I would say. So what's your opinion on this kind of godlike technology? How can we tell in the future what is real and...

like everybody can use deep fake to make some untrue things become a reality what's your opinion on this technology right so so for now you can still um like figure out which is real which is fake with your bare eyes but i think in the future the technology will

become very very accessible to everyone so it's more sophisticated and advanced that with human perception you couldn't distinguish which is authentic and which is like artificial so in in that scenario i think we need a new

level of anti-deepfake technologies, just like what I described in the fiction. So the major platform like news sites and video sites and everything, we need to build up this kind of filter and to detect

all the signals on very subtle level and maybe from the algorithmic and coding level to distinguish the two. And I think people, they need some time to adapt to the new reality because everything could be fake.

video, picture, audio, like even, I don't know, maybe there'll be some real figures. It could be a holographic projection, but it looks super real. And it could trigger a lot of, you know, like potential crimes. And, you know, so this is something happening a lot in the movies.

But I think right now you can see a lot of fraud, a lot of these kinds of cases. Elder generation, they're easily to be cheated and fell into some kind of trap like this. And in the future, we'll all be like that. So it's a very scary scenario. And we need to be prepared from now on to design

the mechanism and design how to protect all this right, you know, to protect our property and privacy and everything. So I think this is what I can see is definitely happening in the future.

Yeah, I don't know if you heard the interview between Joe Rogan and Steve Jobs. Yeah, they made it online. Oh, this is so real. And yeah, so kind of mind blowing. Yeah. Maybe in the future we can...

let the dead people reborn. Sure. Sure. Because for me, I quite like a lot of writers that have already died, like the Chinese one, Su Shi. When they make the Joe Rogan and Steve Jobs interview, they got the raw material from their previous recording. But for the people that died 1,000, 100 years ago, we didn't have any recordings

resources from them. Do you think that's possible to bring them back? Yeah, I think nobody alive really knows how Su Shi talks and behaves. So all we can have is from the books. And maybe we can just build up a new figure and use

all these poems from Su Shi and feels like him, but not really him. So because nobody really knows, but I think that the biggest challenge is those who we are very familiar with, such as Steve Jobs. And if you build up some,

virtual identity just talks, behave pretty close to Steve Jobs, there could be a moral and ethical problem there because it might create a lot of confusions and also what's the relationship with him and the still alive relatives and the offsprings. So that could be something very scary as well. True. Yeah. I think we also need

get some moral code when using all those technologies. Yes. What kind of technologies surprise you most and which one is your favorite? GPT model. Yeah. And I'm using mid journey. I think it's based on like some similar model, like you can trigger the,

automatically generate some imagery by inputting text prompts. And I think it's surprisingly good and it can capture all these very subtle, sophisticated emotions in the text and transform it into a visual format.

It is so powerful that I show some of my collaborated works with my publisher and they thought that this is so high quality and good enough to be the cover art of a book or like an illustration in the book.

So maybe in the near future, like a lot of like human artists, you know, illustrators, maybe just they are not at the top of the pyramid, but the average level, they might lose their jobs because like AI is cheaper, is faster, is more diverse and flexible. So I think this is something

really happening and the question is like do we need to draw a line and and if there's any kind of copyright issue behind the scene because like all this data is from internet like from the historical portfolios like for all these very famous artists and classic artwork back in the day so do we need to pay

someone because we're using all this data to train the model. So I think all of this is still in the great zone and need to be figured out. Yeah. So I know a lot of writers and artists, they kind of afraid of AI. But in my opinion, I see when I create the article or imagery, I think if you have this artistic ability,

training, you can still do better than normal people. Like when you use a mid journey, if you know a lot of art history, you know which areas this picture is from and the artist's name you can add into the prompts so you can generate, you have more information. Yes. Yeah. In the future, the current writer as an artist shouldn't be afraid of these tools, but can leverage

to help them create more fantastic arts. Yes, I think that's the right attitude. So you have to proactively embrace the new technology and use it to elaborate and uplifting your own writing or drawing

creating creativity level. And then we can come up with something greater and it's like making the real impact because it can...

be appreciated by many, many people. So that's uplifting of the whole civilization. So I think this is the way we should do, not just to reject it easily, like say, oh no, I'm just...

I don't want to use any kind of this kind of new technology because we're already using all of those, like using your laptop, using Photoshop and everything and camera for sure. So there's no way you can reject all this.

new things from happening, but you need to like You need to adjust and adapt it to it. Yeah, it reminds me when I was at a near call where you are speaker and

and I met an illustrator and he showed me his work, like he was rejecting AI. He said, "Oh, we are doomed." So he drew an illustration about how all artists against AI. I find this very interesting. Speaking of NIRCON, how did you get into Web3? Why a writer being invited to be a speaker at a Web3 conference? Yeah, it's...

It's quite unusual, but yeah, I met Neil Stevenson in Austin consensus this year. And I think that maybe there'll be more and more like traditional writers and artists might have the interest to

understand Web3 and the creator economy because I think I totally believe that's the future. And to me, I think personally, I had this interest in crypto and Web3 for quite a few years and I started to step into the industry. I think

Yeah, before pandemic and I did some early investment on some projects and also launched NFT auction on TR Lab. So that was 2020. We invited 8 crypto artists from all around the world and they created some NFT artwork based on the story in AI 2041.

That's such an amazing, fascinating experience because you can see how each artist, they have their different perception and understanding of the story and transform it into another format. And it's super powerful because we got a chance to

engage with a new group of readers, like even not every one of them, like they used to read science fiction, but with this new kind of artwork, we can have this kind of AMA and book club on Discord and exchange ideas and everyone will

write some review and comments after each story and artwork. So I think this is something we definitely should think about how to leverage the new medium as a way of storytelling.

So because we text, I think it's not for everyone for sure. So a lot of people might not have the mentality and time to read through the whole book. But as an artwork is very intuitive. And it's like, you can consume it in you can appreciate it like a

just like at the very first sight so it hits you or not so it's very direct so I think this is something we must

Keep in mind that not only one way to tell the story, but one story can be adapted into many, many different formats. And then we can create an even bigger audience. So true. I know the bestseller author Mark Manson, who wrote the subtle art of not giving a fuck. So he made his work.

into NFT and he established his private club. So you need to purchase the NFT to access his private club and kind of build the new relationship between author and the readers. So what was your practice to embrace this new technology or

Or in Web3, you want to build a new relationship with readers or doing some new experiments for writing? Yeah, so I'm working on Mid-Journey to create some graphic novel. And that's the next project. And also we try to do some experiment on this kind of interactive way

fiction so that's basically like a text mod so you can have very simple imagery it's not a very heavy AAA game but it's like interactive you can make your

You can select some options and you can order the characters to make the move or to choose different kind of like action. So I think this is something blurring the line between fiction with game. So it's like a gamification of fiction.

So I think this is something I really have huge interest into because I think game is the future, but the problem is game development is so expensive and you need a team and you need so many expertise and you need the technology, but maybe we can do it in a light way, like using Web3, using all this kind of,

existing platform so that could be like everyone could create their own version of game in the future and that could be very powerful because and you can sell you can

you can create all these kind of props and devices and characters in the game and they are all kind of like NFT or digital assets. So I think this is something happening but it's not ready yet. So this is, I think, pretty much looking forward to. Yeah, one of the stories, My Haunting Idols, you wrote in the AI 2041.

It's a mixed reality, AR, VR or XR. Yeah, I find this very exciting. Maybe next time when we record a podcast, we can just feel like we are in the same room with all our virtual avatar. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and this game like the book would definitely...

trigger a lot of interest. Because when I was browsing Bilibili, which is a Chinese YouTube, so there's this kind, a lot of writers, they start to

bring the readers to participate into their creation. Like you can, the readers can pick up which direction the character needs to go and change the ending. It's very exciting for writers like you. Yes, and like you for sure. Yeah, I'm also doing some experiments, very exciting time. And when it comes to Chinese sci-fi writers,

Liu Cixin's name, I think that's the most well-known one. Sure. It's a three-body problem. Yeah, a lot of my Western friends, they read it and gave a very high complimentary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I noticed that

Liu Cixin's work is much focused on the far away universe or out of space. Yes. And you are more focused on the earth. So can you elaborate on your philosophy regarding creating your science fiction stories? Even like Three-Body Problem, there are a lot of references pointing towards the history and the present world.

their issues. So I think science fiction as a genre, it feels to me like we just reflexively projecting the future, but it's actually help people to realize the invisible problems nowadays. So because and it can help you to shift

a little bit of your perspective with changing the setting of the reality. For example, like you can change the sense of time and space. You can shift the perspective from human centric to maybe alien centric or like there are so many other species, animals, plants, microbe, fungi, and, and it,

With this kind of perspective shift, you can see a new version of reality and it changed everything since then. And I think from that point of view, science fiction is the most powerful cognitive tool that can reshape the reality by reshaping our consciousness.

So I think, for example, The Handmaid's Tale, Marguerite Artwood, she wrote the book in 1980s, I think. But even it's not directly projecting the situation in our reality now, but it's using all this kind of metaphorical

storytelling so actually is telling the same thing so I think this is something why science fiction as a drama can come across the test of time and it can resonate with people from different culture from different location and living in different time and they can always feel this is

This is the story they relate to. And this is something I really want to try because I think my thing is just different. It's not about good or bad. So I'm more focused on the near future. And I really love to explore maybe a few steps away from now.

and to examine what might happen on the social structure, on the humanity, and on the relationships, etc. And also it's like reversely has some impact on the development of technology as well. So it's like

feedback loop. So it's created this kind of cybernetic mechanism. So it's, of course, it's here, but I think we need to escalate it to another level that human consciousness is very sophisticated and it's not something just an objective. It's not like a machine. So there's something more

than we can fully understand. So this is something I think is a little bit across the line between science fiction and fantasy. But I think this is why it gets everyone so excited because we are pushing the boundaries a little bit further. It's just the spirit of science. We always have so many things unknown

ahead of us, but what you can do is just push your comprehension, understanding of the world step by step a little bit further and then we can understand more.

Do you think Chinese culture influenced your creation? Because I know when you wrote The Wastetide, you combined some Chaoshan culture. Can you tell my listeners about where is Chaoshan and a brief introduction about your hometown, where are you from? Yeah.

I was born and raised in a city, small city named Shantou. We said it's small because the population only 3 million people. So maybe in Europe it's not small anyways. Yeah, but in China. And this city with the other five cities around the area,

is create this kind of concept called Chaoshan culture. So we speak the same dialects, we share the same traditions and our people it was called

Eastern Jew because they are adventurous and they would take the risk to travel so far far away overseas doing business and they are very very concentrating their community and to

to heritage, to culture, language, and food. So you can see Chaoshan people all around the world, in America, in Europe, in Africa, Southeast Asia. And like most Thailand Chinese, they're from Chaoshan. So like 85% of the Thai Chinese. So I think this is something I didn't,

until I turned into like in my 30s. And because before that, I think my culture is kind of very old school and maybe sometimes it's too conservative. To me, it's not open enough. So I tried to like cut off from this kind of labels. But afterward, I realized, oh no, this is something different.

existing in my blood, in my lineage. So you couldn't turn away from it, but you have to accept it and see what's the vitality in there. And I realized this is something very inclusive and very adaptive.

and it's very lively in our culture because otherwise you couldn't fit into the different societies all around the world. You can make a living, you can create your own community, you can spread all these cultures. So I think this is something so profound, influenced my writing, such as in Waste Time, we're talking about electronic waste

and it's based on a real location, a small town very close to my hometown. It's like 60 kilometers away. The name in Chinese is Guiyu, means precious island, but the pronunciation in Chinese actually is the same with Silicon Island. So that's what I use in the novel.

So basically I criticize a lot of like the culture, the people, the value system, but also there are many potentials there because if you mobilize the people with a new kind of value and the new kind of technology, so maybe they will have this kind of power to reshape the polluted environment

environment and to uplifting the whole industry to a more sustainable model. So that's something I really love to discuss and I think it universally exists all around the world because of this electronic waste system. So I think this is something coincidentally happened in my writing career, but it

led me towards this direction to care more about this climate change, environmental issues and how to

like build up this deeper connection with the local culture and traditions. Yeah. Can you share some stories about Chaoshan culture that outsiders never know? Even for me as a Chinese, I'm probably not familiar with. Yeah. I mean, like there are so many traditions and rituals and, and,

And as a Chaoshan kid, when you turn into 18, so it means you're becoming an adult. So we have this kind of old saying is like step out of the garden. So we will have very serious big problems.

ritual to do like you have to put on a lot of like very fancy even in red color clothes and you have to eat certain kind of food for example I think this is some sweet sweetened eggs so it's egg but it's sweetened with sugar something

And I think there's some ritual, maybe some family, you need to do something with your elder generation, like your parents or grandparents, and they will give you the blessing. Like now you are adults, you have to be responsible for your life and for the people in your life. So I think this is something...

I didn't see it in other places in China. I realized that maybe the people here, we share different kind of perspective of life. And because we have so many rituals in our daily life, for example, every month we will worship the god of the land.

And every month we will worship the goddess of the moon. So I really didn't see it in other cities, other areas in China, but in Chaoshan area. This is our daily life. So since kid, I experienced everything. But I didn't feel it's so different until I went to the university. That's where I met Chaoshan.

everyone from different part of China and I realized oh China is so huge it has 1.4 billion population and everyone is so different culturally and I think that's how I how I start to

have this kind of openness and inclusiveness because you have to pay respect

to others. Not like you have this kind of bias or discrimination just because you are different. So we have to respect all the differences. So that's what I learned. Yeah, there are so many stereotypes in China. For me, when you mention, oh, you're from Shantou, I will say, oh, you are best for the beef hot pot. Yeah, if you

You heard me from Shandong, you probably think how people from there can drink a lot. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's very interesting. When I was traveling around the southern part of China, I see people like to worship God. Yeah. Yeah, the God you mentioned. And do you consider that as a religion? Because so many people say Chinese people don't have a religion at all.

they worship thousands of different gods. I would say, yeah, it's religious practice, but I'm not sure if it's a very systematic religion because we don't have church. We don't have that kind of dogma, but maybe very simple philosophy of living. So, yeah, we worship the god and goddess, but

I'm not really sure if this is some kind of religion, but I think we are people with spirituality. Yeah. We have our...

and appreciation of the universe. So that's very Taoism. I think it's the mixture of Taoism and Buddhism. Yeah. When you create a science fiction stories, did you find there is a conflict between the religion and science? What's your thoughts on the relationship between religion and science? In the traditional culture,

perspective of science fiction is all about science and technology, right? But it feels to me like myth, like mythology and also religion is also a way of interpreting the world on certain level.

So I think because our understanding of the world, of the physical world or the internal world is evolving all the time, like with our development of technology, experiment and everything. So I think it's...

I think they're both legit just because of the context. And I almost feel that they're sharing this as equal as the power of connecting people and to create these kind of consensus with this belief system because science also is a belief system.

So you, based on your belief, you make the assumption and you make the speculation. You try to get some proof. You can use the data from telescope and everything. I just visited CERN in Geneva. So I think basically they're doing the same thing with super...

sophisticated machine to find the smallest particle like we ever know and to examine all of the features, what's the relationship with gravity and everything. And even they create antimatter in the lab. So this is something, it feels very, very

religious because we all try to understand who we are, where we come from, and where we are going to. So this is, I think it's something deep inside that we human beings, we have this kind of like eager to pursue the reason and purpose of existence.

So I think to me it's not conflicts, but it's like different angles of the same thing. So I'll put all of these elements in my stories and they can interact with each other and people can feel, oh, I didn't see this.

like religious or superstitious from that angle before. But now you make me to rethink about it and maybe something is real there, but we just didn't recognize it as science and technology yet. So I think this is what I try to do because in my, during my childhood,

it's always as mixed as this. So I experience everything and also like we have the latest video game and all this kind of electronic devices. But at the same time, we have this kind of shamanic rituals and we have superstitions, we have ghosts, we have gods in our daily life. So it's like feels...

it feels like just part of my life is my experience. So very unique maybe.

Yeah, when I grew up, I experienced a lot of rituals, especially during the Chinese New Year time. So there's like shamanic dancing and what you need to do on the first day of Chinese New Year or second day. You need to follow all these rituals. But before I was thinking, oh my God, this is so old tradition, doesn't make any sense.

the older I, I grew up, I feel like, wow, that's actually, it's a kind of a,

between human and the universe. The dancing they're doing and the rituals they worship, the different kind of gods is quite interesting. I know in Chaoshan you must have different rituals during Chinese New Year. Can you give me some examples? I think, yeah, because my family is living in the city, so not

not many rituals happening in recent years, but I sometimes I'll go to the village, the countryside, because many things, many rituals happen there. Like for example, Chuwu is like the fifth day of the Lunar New Year. So they will have this kind of ritual like

like the whole village, the people will come out and the young men like they'll carry a huge statue of the local god and they're running across the village

to every family and they will have the bian pao I don't know bian pao how to say the firework the firework and they will knock the drums and they will have very loud music and everyone is so crowded and they want to touch the statue of the god and get some good luck like a blessing of the new year so it's almost feels

to me like a carnival. So it's like a huge festival. So I really enjoy that because you feel this is very authentic and everyone is so happy and everyone is so hopeful for the new year. So, and you can feel this kind of connection between the people and

and with the supernatural beings. So yeah, so this is something happening until now, like every year, so still. Yeah, same thing. We call it a Puowu, which is like break the fifth day of New Year. And we put the ancestors'

the name list of our ancestors then worship them it's quite interesting to connect your roots yeah before i also have the thing you just mentioned like i i don't want to tie my identity to my roots i feel like they're all like old fashion or i want to see the new world but now i've i feel it's embedded

already in my DNA, I need to connect all the culture, especially Chinese culture, like thousands years of history. And there's so many ancient books and that can inspire our creation.

So what are some ancient Chinese books or school of thoughts you'd like to include in your work? I think two books I've revisited a lot in recent years. One is Dao De Jing, and one is Yi Qing, the Book of Change. So I think these two books are even more interesting

timely and important for now. And because it's, uh, Dowder Jing is actually basically talking about how to think and act beyond binary. So I think right now, a lot of like issues, geopolitics, climate, and everything is all because we were trapped in this framework of

going binary. So I think like thousands of years ago, our ancestor Lao Tzu, he realized this could be a huge problem for our civilization. And he used this very philosophical, abstract, sometimes ambiguous expression to help us to think beyond that.

But of course, it's very difficult for everyone to understand it. So you need, I think you need some daily practice as well. So I do meditation, I do some meditation.

some retreats myself. And I Ching is, it's almost like a... Like a folk tale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you can use it to predict a lot of things in your life and maybe the future. So it feels like very science fictional to me. And there's something there also about like you...

embedded your subjectivity into the objective world and you create this kind of, you know, predicted system. It's like a quantum machine

computation process yeah then you can get some very accurate results so that's totally fascinating and and uh each time i i i just read the book and and it always gives me so much wisdom and so much insight uh into the

So I think maybe in the future we will prove that this is science and this is new kind of science we are not fully understand yet. Yeah, I find this very fascinating. I changed my name when I was in secondary school because my grandpa, he studied Yijing and he used this science to change my name.

to Yi Xuan and then my fate is changed I don't know it's because of adolescent hormones change or whatever but I feel like yeah I've become a different person and my family's fate also changed it's getting better and better I don't know what's the

or power behind this. I just feel like, yeah, from then on, I feel like, wow, Yi Jing is very powerful and I want to learn more. Yeah, totally. When we first met each other in real life, you mentioned your name also is from Yi Jing, right?

right yeah it was like advised by some fortune telling people yeah so yeah like my people is very superstitious that's just we can't explain but you know I'm just okay it's doing good to me so I'll believe it

yeah yeah yeah we also mentioned the psychedelic when we first met each other what's your opinion on that because you know in the traditional chinese culture yeah people probably treat psychedelic as a drug or something illegal but i found it's very popular in western countries and i did a

a couple of retreats and I found wow it definitely helped me with the creative works so what's your experience with psychedelics? Yeah I think because China we have history of opium war

So I think this kind of burden is still there. So like we intended to demonize all kind of substances, like with this kind of like, you know, whatever it is like hot drug or like psychedelics, psychoactive substances. But I think back in the,

If you look back to the longer history in China, so even like 4,000 years ago, our ancestors already used some kind of these substances, like herbal substances for sure, to help them to get into the other state of consciousness, which was a shamanic experience. And all of those shamans actually

giving the direction, the prediction to the emperor, to the society. They predict the result of the war, like the weather, like the agriculture and everything. So I think basically they function just like what the technology plays nowadays.

So it's very interesting that it seems like we are reconnect back to that part of the traditions, like in Peru, like people using Amazonia, Ayahuasca,

of course, with the help of shamans who get into this kind of state of trance. And of course, there's many, many other kinds of psychedelics in Mexico and in Southeast Asia, in Africa. So I think it's universally exist.

And now I can see a lot of like, scientific research in the institute, in the university to learn how to use psychedelics to help the patients with depression, anxiety, and cancer maybe to deal with their mental issues.

So I think it's all like depends on how we use it and what's the purpose of using all this kind of psychedelic substances. So I definitely believe that there is a lot of huge, huge potential there to help us to realize

we are not just living on flesh and blood. We're not just a physical body. We're not reductionism products, but there's something like, you know, unconsciousness level is so deeply embedded with the world, with the cosmos, and entangled with other species as well. And psychedelics,

definitely will help us to realize that part of the reality. I think that's the most important thing that helps us to build up this empathy towards other species. And that's maybe the way to solve a lot of problems. Yeah.

you know when i reread shanghai the classic of mountains and the seas i feel like they must have some psychedelic trip then they can create all those monsters or bees they must say something different yeah yeah yeah who are the biggest influencers on your life like writers or technology leaders or anyone it's very difficult to say but

I made my English name Stanley after Stanley Kubrick. So I think because he made so many great sci-fi movies, not only sci-fi movies but across all different genres and he's so visionary and so profoundly reflecting

our humanity and civilization. So I think he's the one I'll always look up upon too and getting so much inspiration from. And I went to the exhibition in London. Yeah, I went too as well. Yeah, the Design Museum is so fascinating and I learned a lot from

I cried there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even like he's a control freak and he's afraid of taking all the fights. But still, he's a genius for sure.

I feel like he's like a guy traveled from the future. He's so ahead of his time. Totally, totally. Which one of his works inspired you the most? I know it's hard to answer, maybe a lot. Yeah, I think it's 2001 Space Odyssey because I rewatched it so many times. Like even every year I'll watch it again. So because every time I...

I see something I didn't see before. So this is like a classic, all-time classic. Yeah, for sure. I told my friend, if one day I can create one of like that kind of movie or book, I can die immediately. I have no regret. Do you also have these feelings, like what kind of legacy you want to leave to this world? Uh-huh, I...

I didn't really think about it because I think it's not decided by me, but by the time, by the world. So all I can do is just continuously create something I believe in. And I hope maybe just a small piece of all of those works can be remembered, can be

can be like, you know, heritage or be appreciated by our offspring if there is still some offspring in the future. Hopefully there's no like nuclear war. And yeah, I hope I can help people to think a little bit of what's the relationship between

of human beings with other species and with the cosmos and to realize what kind of life and purpose they want to pursue. And this is something I really want to do. I noticed that your works are very

concern about the climate change and the environment. I don't know if you read the recent news, there's two environmentalists, they went to a national gallery in London, they put the soup. Oh, yeah, Van Gogh. Yeah, Van Gogh. Yeah, the sunflowers, right? So what's your thoughts on that, like extreme behaviors?

to raise people's awareness of the environment. Yeah, I think this kind of extreme or radical activist is actually the previous generation of environmentalism. So I don't think it really changed anything.

But maybe just another way, like it creates some misunderstanding of the problem and blur the focus because Van Gogh is not the one who created the carbon emission, but all of those oil companies.

So I think, yeah, sometimes maybe it's just seeking for attention, but I think it's not a very mature way to doing so. So I think we need some more thoughtful action and maybe with the Web3, with DAO, with the new technology, we can build up some constructive action

solution. So I think that's the right way to doing all this kind of like environmental activist. So, so yeah, so I am putting my thoughts in my next novel. So I actually writing something

an organization called Gaia Dao. So it's like a new kind of environmentalism and their action is basically happening in virtual reality and maybe in the way of crypto economy. So this is more encouraging and incentive people to do the good things to our mother earth.

So this is something I would expect to happen in the future. That's good. And last question, what's the meaning of life? I just copied this question from Lex Freeman. Yeah, I don't think meaning of life or the purpose of life was given by God.

the external world but it was given by ourselves it was defined by ourselves so from that perspective I think to me personally I think the meaning of life is to create and to play this infinite game so you have to believe it's not a zero-sum game so there's actually no

competitors there's no competition you have to win but there's no win or lose but all you have to do is to uplifting yourself and to create as much as possible the the value to the to the rest of the world to the society to me is like

writing stories and delivering a message which I believe is correct. And I think that's the meaning of my life for now. So I'm not sure if anything else would

came up to me in the future maybe have kids maybe you know going to mars but it's it's just some side products it feels to me like the core of it is

create to create yeah I love that yeah I think for now for my meaning is yeah create and just explore my inner self and spread my thoughts and feelings to the outside world to connect with others it's very powerful

So thank you so much, Stanley. Thank you. So if people want to know more about your works, where can they find you? They can find my works on Amazon and they can follow me on Twitter. So my handle is my name, Chenqiu Fan.

and I have a website but it's very sketchy one it's chengchufan.cn so I use Discord a lot so yeah yeah I'll put them in the show notes so people can continue following you thank you so much enjoy Italy thank you