#122: Digital Nomad, Self-actualization, Chinese Buddhism and Love with Allison Wang
57:58 Share

Kia ora, ni hao and hello. Welcome to the Cherry Journal podcast. I'm your host, Camille Yang. My guest today is Alison Wong. She's the founder of a yoga brand, Awake. She's currently living a digital nomad life and writing a blog and running a podcast channel. Alison and I used to be online friends, but we finally met in Madeira and recorded this podcast sitting in front of the Atlantic Ocean.

The sound quality might not be perfect, but you will be able to hear the sound of waves and feel the Zen vibes when we were talking about meditation, self-realization, and love. I hope you enjoy this episode.

It's so random we met in Madeira. I know you live in Europe, but I never expect to meet you here. Yeah, it happened all so quickly. I think we got to know each other when I was in Hamburg, so it's two or three months ago.

Yeah, I was in London and I thought, yeah, I might meet you in Germany or in the UK, but never expect here. Yeah, exactly. So how long have you been living in Madeira? I have been here since the summer, I think mid-summer, so it has been one half month and I'm leaving tomorrow. Oh, very soon. What's your feeling about Madeira?

as a digital nomad village yeah it's very interesting because it's such a new thing in Europe usually the village are always like in Bali or in Chiang Mai in Southeast Asia and so since COVID and it's like oh you're so far away from a kind of community base so I was in Berlin for a year and then after arriving in Madeira it's like an instant feeling of sense of belonging like obviously that's

part of the pros of having a community. But they're really doing a good job

I learned to build, to, you know, try to facilitate everything for digital nomads and for remote workers. So ever since COVID, the digital nomad kind of grow exponentially, right? I see. The concept, you know, so it's very popular here. I found it so interesting, like so many activities. Because before I moved here, I expect...

I will live here by myself alone. Village life. Yeah, village life. Fisherman town or something. No, I found a crossfit activity group and a lot of parties, like boat parties.

Yeah, exactly. You've experienced the fun part already. Yeah, and I found a lot of crypto people here. Oh, yeah, true. And a lot of entrepreneurs. Yeah, so it's a very interesting crowd. You have a saying that

The digital nomads nowadays are basically, you know, the people when they were 20s, they were the backpackers. So it's the backpackers who grew up, you know, living their ideal life. Yeah. And we all have a commitment to issues.

That's true. So how did you start your nomad life? Because I know you live so many different places. Can you walk me through your journey? Yeah, I think so. I started in 2018. So it has been three years, something like that. But I've known the idea, like kind of to have time and mobility and to have the freedom to

since I was still in graduate school. And so I think when I was 23 or something. So I heard about it. I was very interested, but I never thought, oh, it could be me because, you know, I was raised or I was educated to be an employee. And I tried that and I figured, oh, maybe I have to save enough money for it or maybe I have to, you know, have my own business for it or whatever. So I kind of put it off for a while.

But it has never become my goal, like, oh, I have to achieve, you know, to become a digital nomad. It just happened quite naturally, I think, in 2018. At that time, I was living in Germany, and it was kind of boring. And I was obviously in a certain period of life, in a phase that you're trying to figure out. You're growing up now, and who are you, really? What do you want? Not the society tells you what you want.

And so then I started to thinking, actually I can just give it a try. So it all started with our plan. I just went to Southeast Asia with my husband actually at that time too.

Because it's the cheapest, least pressure for sure for living. And then just started from there. So we've been to Southeast Asia and I was roaming around in India and then East of Europe and then Germany and now in Portugal. So only Asia and Europe for now. I see. So how do you support yourself while doing the nomad life? Yeah, so it's also like...

while, you know, trying to support myself and trying to also build something. So it was very interesting. I started writing as a blogger. So Chinese platforms. Yeah. And I figured in the beginning I was trying to, you know, thinking maybe I should, I was reading Tim Ferriss or reading, you know, all these, you know, life hacks and the productivity things. So I got quite into it.

it's very helpful for sure in the beginning to try to build something. So, but for me, what really brought for me is trying to follow, you know, be really interested in what I am interested in. So instead of building a business, I kind of,

I was in a quest to, you know, really looking into what made me me and why are we here. So it sounds very weird, but that's what I've been writing for past three years. And also all the content I was making. So I don't know how to label myself and I kind of don't want to label it. So I have a business. I have a yoga brand in China. I sell yoga products.

and yoga mats. But interestingly, only for a certain type of model. So I don't really update it yearly. Actually, the mats I'm selling nowadays is still three years ago, what I've made. So I'm trying to, you know, also understand that what made me happier at that time was trying yoga.

was not, you know, like some magic that I want to, you know, promote for everybody. Oh, now you should all be yogis and something. But I believe the yoga mat, it's such an easy product. It helped me. So I truly believe in, you know, the people who are using it, the mat will help them. So that's my core business, actually. And then all my writings are

generally just a kind of public self-introspection because to look to my weakness you know to look into as a human what's wrong with us like why are we never satisfied yeah so I was very very interested in these topics and it's very fun I'm doing everything I love I read and then I write I write not for the sake of earning money but it kind of

the dots are all connected in the end. So, the sales are obviously the products. So, that's mainly what supported me the whole time. And I also have quite some passive income for yoga classes, like online classes and meditation, you know, like Buddhist.

boot camps or something like that. Yeah, I think that's how I know you online, through reading your content. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's the podcast, though. Yeah, also the podcast. Yes, I have a Chinese podcast. Only in Mandarin, so follow Chameleon. Can you explain the name of your podcast? It's called Shanfeng Dianhuo. Yeah, exactly. So how do you explain in English?

Fan Your Flames or something. So at that time, I was so into podcasts. I was listening to a lot of episodes from Tim Ferriss and from Joe Rogan, and also Impact Theory, I think. They're doing such a good job trying to bring the greatest minds. Also, what really inspired me is that the great minds that we see as heroes or entrepreneurs, they actually all have their...

doubts in life they all have their you know difficulties so in the past I always felt alone I felt like I'm worthless and like oh I had all the education I'm supposed to be one of you know whatever elite group but what the hell I'm nothing so I felt really alone and felt really you know small

But then listening to them really made me realize it's a human thing. So it made me feel better for sure and appreciate them also in another perspective. And so...

That's when I got interested, like I want to try. So, you know, if I say I'm a content creator, I do podcast. So in audio, I make yoga videos on YouTube and also in Chinese and I also write. And so I'm trying all the forms at that time, all the formats, whatever I can do. I even tried vlog, but in the end, it's not my thing. So then I let it go. Right.

So the podcast, I think Tim Ferriss mentioned it. He said even how he started his podcast is he tried six times. Oh, wow. So everything he wants to do, he tries it for six times. If he likes it or if it has some traction, then he keeps going at it. If not, then he would drop it. So I was just thinking to give it a try. And then I started when I was in Budapest. And so...

At that time, I was just trying to make a show about what I've learned, like all the books or something. And the name came up because I was in India for a month before the podcast show I started. So I was reading a lot in Rumi. Ah, Rumi, the poet. Yeah, exactly. He's the Persian poet. Persian poet, exactly. Yeah.

So he had a very interesting saying that set your life on fire and seek those fan your flames. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. But basically, you know, leaving a digital nomad at that time, it was, I mean, it's already quite sophisticated, I think, during that time, but it's not as prevalent, you know, as popular as now.

So at that time, I still need to explain to everybody what I'm doing, you know, why I'm here. And if you're not a tourist, what are you doing? Like, it's really weird. And so for me, I feel it's just...

If this truly fits me or fits anybody, I'd like to also fan their flames. I felt all the books I've been reading, all the people I've been following, all the inspirations. So I would just love to share. So that's how the name Fan Your Flame comes out. And in Chinese wine, it's actually quite funny, right? Yeah, it is. It's like you want to do something bad. Exactly. Put oil on fire.

Yeah, I guess it's the rebellious feeling in China. It's very unconventional to go on this path, right? Because we are in a certain phase in our society that people are looking for what Americans were looking for during the, I don't know, 60s or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, I found the name quite funny, but the content has nothing to do with it in the end. Yeah, that's why I found your content such a contrast. I'm very into the meditation and the personal growth part on your podcast. So when did you start to have a thought about your life?

Is that early 20s? Oh, no. Oh, wow. Early 20s was tough, right? Yeah. It was some brainless party time. Yeah, it is. I think, yeah, we all go through that.

Exactly, because we're so young, we all just try to fit in. So what I said before, I was trying to understand me, like personally, what I was suffering from or what I get joy from. But I feel generally it's actually a humanity, you know, commonality for sure. So what I read very interestingly, because last year I was focused on neuroscience. And so there's this professor, Robert Sapolsky,

He has amazing classes from Stanford. It's actually an open course. It's for free online. It's like neuroscience 101. So it's very good. I would recommend it to anybody who's interested in how human behaviors come from.

So he was talking about how our, you know, the free frontal cortex, like the brain part, you know, that's the part that makes us human, right? To make the rational judgment and stuff. Actually, before you're 25, this part, the neurons, yeah, they are not fully connected. Yeah.

So it's very interesting. Like for me, I kind of get the gist that I felt more like, you know, not say confident, but I feel more whole as a person after maybe when I was 28, 29. But when I was 20, I think 22 to 26, it was such a mess. Yeah.

Because, you know, I feel I'm someone, but I'm still also trying to fit in. Yeah. So, you know, like, even if you feel you are so rebellious, but even with this, you know, this rebel feeling, you still want to fit in. True. You know, in some kind of group or whatever. So, for me, it was very interesting. So, in the early 20s, I was just like everybody. I want everybody to like me. Be a people pleaser. People pleaser. Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

So it was fun, of course. I think nobody can really take this experience away from anybody. We all have to go through it.

Some people don't. I don't know. Some people mature really early. Not me. Not me either. Yeah, so I think we share quite some common path. So for me to really look into meditation, like the things you're also interested in, is that ever since I was 28. So when I was 27, I got into like a very... I don't want to call it depression because...

I never got diagnosed and I don't want to, you know, use the word in inflation, but I was just generally unhappy for a very long time, despite I was living in Europe, which was like a childhood dream, you know, for Chinese people. I don't know. And, uh,

Yeah, so I didn't know why and then I was starting to look into it and that's how things get started and I understood we all have a monkey mind, you know. "Ah, so what my mind is telling me is not necessarily me." Oh my god, that's so interesting. So at that age to even just heard about the sentence and then I started to try to meditate and failed, obviously.

What kind of medication have you been on? I think it was Headspace. I think Headspace is like a mixture of everything. They

I mean, how do you define what kind of meditation? There are different methods. But I feel the ultimate path is generally the sense to be aware and to have the mindfulness. So just the technique I was using was mainly the breathing technique. So it's more vipassana and this direction, yeah. So I was never really into transcendental meditation. I think you were. You had the experience. Yeah.

Yeah, I got my wake-up call because I had two panic attacks in one year. That's much more intense. Yeah, just like you. I was questioning, oh, I live such a good life. I have a good job. I have a boyfriend. My life is wonderful in other people's eyes, but I don't know why I have

Yeah, it's so interesting. How old were you at that time? I think around 27. Okay, very similar. Yeah. Yeah, I think that also could be the first self-awareness of what am I doing? Yeah, exactly. Maybe before you're just trying to be successful in a conventional way. Yeah.

You know, a rat race. I think once you achieve everything the society requests you achieve, then you start to question. Oh, yeah, for sure. But I guess for me, I never achieved anything. So unlike you, I was just, you know, hanging around. Yeah, true. At that time, I was also married. I was happily married and I was surprised that it wasn't enough.

You know, like I was such a girl that had this ideal about relationship or anything.

But then I think for me it was quite, I think maybe you were career focused. And I'm very self-aware. I know I'm very emotional and I'm a very relationship-based person. So when I realized that even the person and voice who could be, I call, quote, soulmate, and we're together, we're happily together, and it's still not enough. Okay, that's not it. That's not the answer. Definitely. Yeah.

So that for me, like you, maybe, you know, when you realize money or status or whatever is not the answer, then you start to look inside. So how do you find the solution? You know, there are so many different philosophies and different meditation or yoga.

How have you tried everything? Yeah, I mean, in the beginning, of course, I was so curious and also shattered in a way, you know, like, oh, you know, meditation, maybe it could be something I misunderstood the whole time. But generally, I actually, I followed yoga with Adrian. I think she's the biggest yoga channel online. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I have to say, because we were born in China, for me, religious, you know, like if we use yoga in a very traditional way, maybe in the beginning I would, you know, kind of reject it, like naturally, you know, from mentally or whatever, from our background environment.

But Yoga with Adriene, she made it really accessible to everybody. So she was never talking about chakras or she never wanted to force you to kind of have a philosophy about yoga, but generally use yoga as a tool.

So for me, in the beginning, this works as wonders because I just wanted to feel better, you know, like to put it to the simplest way, I just want to feel better. And with the yoga, I think it was for the first time I could...

try to connect my breath with the body and for me, I'm a very junk person. So for me, this is like, you know, miraculous. It's really, it does miracle for me. I felt much more grounded. And then from there on, I started to look more, look deeper into what it's really about, you know, and then that's why I also went to India in the end, yeah. But still, even today, I don't practice, I cannot say I practice one school of yoga. I

I generally still apply yoga in a way that is, quote, practical, yet a reminder of mindfulness. So generally try to bring it just into my daily life, but not to make it, not religiously practicing it. It's very important to find your way of practicing. I also try different meditations.

I can't do the guided meditation. I'm very irritated when people talk when I meditate. So transcendental meditation is perfect for me. I'm just sitting there by myself. Yeah, true. Then you're a true self-learner. And nowadays I read a lot of Zen meditation. Yeah, yeah. That's also pretty good. I can just sit there. Okay, what is your interpretation of Zen meditation?

I'm only the beginner of that. Beginners are the best. Beginners actually have a sometimes deeper understanding and more of an objective understanding, in my opinion, actually, of one area. Because my grandpa, he's been practicing Zen for his whole life. So he also wrote some poems and left a lot of books on this subject. So I read Zen Buddhism when I was very little, but I

I have no idea what it is. Just know the stories. I'm not very focused on the practical things. But, you know, Jim Ferris did a podcast on Zen Buddhism. And I have a friend. He also went to the Zen Buddhism Center. That's how I got into

okay yeah because that's more focus on my mind during pandemic I find I lost my concentration I don't know it's from the anxiety or stress I can't focus on deep work global issue yeah I find yeah meditation

just do very focused and just do for example if you eat you just eat you don't do anything yes so what's your understanding for that I think you did an episode yeah it's quite interesting so for Pat here right here and there

I think since this year I've been practicing. I mean, I'm still such a beginner, but I'm starting to have a little bit of personal insight into it. So I made a series. It's all in Chinese, so don't even bother to read it. I'll help you translate it into English. So I wrote a series and I made it into a podcast. It's called like, I mean, 自我觉醒, kind of, you know, the personal awakening.

you know, experience. So I made it into four parts. Like the first is impermanence, the wu chang. And the second is shen yan, is the language we use, how it actually really presents our mind and our understanding of everything, actually, but it's the basic of communication. So that was also another thing comes up with mindfulness for me. And the third one is obviously like, you know, in the moment, like...

How do you describe it? Be present. Like be present. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, and the last one is egoless. But I have to say the egoless thing, I'm still on the process. But the first three, so recently, Camilia mentioned as a recent episode, it's like be present. So that was the whole feeling I got from...

meditation and I cannot really say that it's only from meditation because I feel there are certain type of people they are just they can use a different way to be mindful like yoga could be okay for a certain type of people but for other people just walking is meditation or just you know

do sports, you know, like running. Yeah, I even found when I do intensity activity, I found I was so good. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, because it's generally, it doesn't matter of the format, but it's really how, where do we put our mind, right? So it doesn't matter what you do. So for me, it was yoga and meditation.

And then I kind of got a sense of what it really meant to be, you know, when I eat, I eat. I heard a long time about it. And I kind of, you know, using your rationality to get it like when I eat, I should just eat.

But recently I think I have, you know, kind of first time or first more intense time of feeling that when I'm eating, I'm really eating. When I'm walking, I'm really walking. It's still very difficult. I cannot, you know, really make it stay. But it's not about to make it stay, but it's already crazy to experience. It's just when I'm eating, I think in the past when everybody's eating, especially nowadays, eating is social.

You know, when you're eating with friends, with family, and we talk. While we eat, we talk, we kind of lost touch with the food. But in our modern age, we're in such a fortunate time that we get to experience food in such a, you know, vibrant and abundant way, right? Which has never been there in human history. But we kind of...

just lost the contact with it after the third bite. I think most of us do. I mean, for me, it's definitely that. I'm such a foodie. I love food. But I really realize how when I'm eating, maybe I'm thinking...

when I'm eating and maybe trying to make a conversation. Even when I eat alone, I think for a long time when I was eating alone, I was watching a movie. Yeah, that's me. Right? I was watching Friends. Watch a show. It's such a funny combination. It's joy. I find it funny. I eat and watch. I just feel happy. Yeah.

But now I realized that was not eating. That was really just dumping, you know, the food inside of me. And that made me really anxious. In fact, you know, also made me eat more, for sure. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, because that's obviously when our mind is not here. So that's how I felt about when I eat. I eat so recently. I'm also trying to, you know, when I eat breakfast or eat anything, I would just sit down with myself now. Because in the past, maybe you're in such a rush, I want to learn more. Or I want to, you know, be entertained. And then you either listen to a book or you read a book and eat or you're working, you eat. So...

For me, that's already... It sounds so small, right? It sounds so small. It's not even like a spiritual enlightenment or anything. But for me, it's such an enlightenment. What does it really mean? And then when you can reach this type of mindfulness, you realize there's no past and there's no future. And then if you're in a literal way, if we are just here, then everything's fine. Really, like everything's fine. What about the impermanence?

impermanence. Yeah, I guess that's the kind of foundation for everything I will write also, I will experience in our life. I think like how we feel so unsatisfied, how easily we feel unsatisfied. We're also easily satisfied, you know, but then the dopamine kicks comes very fast.

So the impermanence is actually a very long-term Buddhism teaching, right? In Buddhism, I think the first thing you need to learn is that you need to let go. And impermanence is basically teaching us

If we can, you know, let it go. Or actually anything, if we want to hold on to something, anytime when we want to hold on to something, when we want to buy something, when we purchase, it's actually something we want to, it should be mine. When we labor something that's mine, even in a relationship, my best friend, my husband, my boyfriend. And then, you know, it's creating pain inevitably because...

I mean, if we're all adults, we don't need to lie to ourselves. We're saying goodbye to so many things already, even when we were young. So the entire life is also, I think...

It sounds so sad. It's a journey to learn how to say goodbye properly, I think. I mean, if I learn to reach that, I think it's such a fulfilling life because then I also cherish it maybe more. I would be more in the moment for sure. And I also understand I'm immortal and also so is everybody. So is the Earth. So is who knows what's the universe. So then it's...

could broaden my view definitely for sure.

And then it made me also less attached to things. And even I'm trying really hard to learn how to be less attached to relationships. I think it's the hardest. That's so hard. We're social animals. I used to, if I lost a friend, it took me a couple of years to recover. But now I kind of accept that. It's a permanent relationship. Friendship.

Your family, yeah. Yeah, they can only take company for such a short journey with you. Yeah.

I mean, I don't want to say this like now our tongues even went lower a bit. I don't see it in a pessimistic way. I don't anymore at least. In the beginning, it's very sad. But now I feel it, you know, even like to remind yourself you're going to die soon. It makes you live more, right? Like just naturally. So I think we should learn this. We should try to understand. Yeah, I even got a tattoo on my arm.

Oh, yeah. Now I'm looking at it. Memento mori. Memento mori. Yeah, that's very smart.

So what does this mean for you? I mean, you know, memento moris, remember you shall die. Yeah, remember you shall die. Yeah. So how did it make you to come to this point? I think I learned this phrase from Ron Holiday because he's a very stoic. He's one of the stoic philosophy. There are so many people left me.

the past decade for family for friends some is my reason I move around I have such a free spirit so I say goodbye to many people in my life and some

some family member they died which they have huge impact on my life but they're gone so it's kind of teaching me you can't fight against death that's inevitable so you just need to accept that and I think once I accept this fact you kind of have this optimistic attitude towards death death is not the

scary things anymore no it's not you're facing it straight away yeah yeah exactly actually when you mentioned this it also reminds me of I was also look very deep into stoicism and they're very interesting philosophers right like you definitely you know you think about the worst scenario and then

you realize if it's not death, it's not the worst scenario. So I like it. But on the other hand, it's very connected actually to Buddhism and to Taoism. So like in Taoism, for example, I was reading about Zhuangzi. He's similar to Laozi. He's one of my favorites of philosophers. Right? And so basically how I feel, I mean, obviously we don't know how the Stoic philosophers, how their daily life was like. But, you know, according to Seneca or the...

I read about him or even, you know, the Marcus, what is it? Aurelius. Aurelius Marcus, like his meditations. You kind of feel it's like in a path, you know, to try to learn to be self-disciplined in a way, you know. So it has this feeling of teaching, right?

and a feeling of you need to feel the suffering and understand the pain. It's obviously very good, but when I look deeper into meditation and also like in Buddhism meditation and also Taoism, I realize it's the same approach, but Zhuangzi is extremely optimistic.

And I feel the people who live in the moment who are very aware of death, they're actually the happiest people, you know, on earth. They don't hold on to anything anymore. It's nothing, you know, you can't hold on to. And so, yeah, so Zhuangzi, as, you know, we learned in school, he even would...

make music when his wife died, when his wife passed away. I think we have a saying in the Gopeng Argyle. But I remember when I was a kid, I was thinking, oh, wow, I cannot imagine the closest person died. And then I would sing to have joy in the funeral. But I think recently I really tried to read it.

what he was saying. Then I realized, actually, we were all learning just the episodic of the story. So obviously he was sad. He was very sad. And then his friend, you know, his friend came and it was a conversation, right? The Taoism teachings. And the friend arrived and says, oh, why are you singing? You know, this doesn't make sense at all. You know, you don't even have respect for your dead wife. And then he's like, of course I was sad, but you need to...

But then I just gave it a second thought. I know if I keep being sad, she's not returning. Then why don't I just celebrate her existence instead of...

mulling over something that would never come back again. So that gave me a touch of that Zhuangzi is very human, actually. So it's not our fault we feel sad. Even if you meditate for 50 years, you might still be sad. But it's the human part of us. We should...

enjoy it and also have the ability to you know really take a turn in your just have a second thought and not to dwell that's the whole teaching of meditation not to follow your train of thoughts but to board another train or to get out of this sadness train and then you know it passes right

You also mentioned Su Shi. He's one of my favourite writers. He's so interesting. Yeah, he's also very optimistic about his life because he's been excel to...

Oh, yeah. Which is so far away. And then he wrote Tianya Haijiang. He described it as the end of the world in a very beautifully way. So then the officials are like, damn, you know, we even put him, you know, to the worst place and he still sees beauty in it. That's amazing, right? He has a lot of Buddha friends. Yeah, true. I think he probably gets some ideas from them. Yeah.

Yeah, I think in his writings, I think ever since he was a child, he was very influenced by Zen Buddhism, in fact. And I think I really like him as well because he didn't give up his daily life, daily joys.

In China, there's even a dish named by him, the, you know, Dong Guo Rou, the fattest belly, the pork belly. And that's what his favorite food was. So he doesn't give up and or, you know, don't dive into a cave for 30 years. I mean, that's very respectful, definitely. But I just like that, you know, there's another approach as a normal person, as you know. Speaking of him, today is the Mid-Autumn Festival.

Oh, yeah. He wrote the most famous poem about the moon. He mentioned people have joy, sorrow, we have reunion, we have separation, and the moon also dim and wrong. Exactly, yeah, the moon changes itself. We see it every day. Yeah, the whole world is imperfect, but we just accept it as long as we can.

appreciate the moon at the same time although we're thousands of miles apart. Yeah, exactly. It's very, very beautiful. So in this part, I kind of appreciate Chinese education. I mean, there are a lot of problems with our education, maybe every education in every country.

But for me, I felt we had to recite the poem. Do you remember? You have to remember it by words. Yeah, and we were like, I don't know, 13, 14. We were really young, even since younger. I have to say at that time, I had no idea what's going on. I know it's beautiful, but you couldn't really relate.

And now I think even for Germans, they have so many good philosophers, right? But I feel the students are very distant from them. Whereas, you know, because for them it's a deep, you know, learning. It's a kind of another structure. But for us, we appreciate the beauty of all these, we don't even call them philosophers, but kind of deeply ingrained in ourselves, which of course shape who we are, you know, but also

made me at least how I felt I'm sure you too you know to really to understand it have a sense of you know like epiphany one day just one day you know we were reciting so many poems and just one day this makes sense oh wow I find that already like an enlightenment like that's that's such an amazing experience exactly I remember one of my friends when she told me

when you look at the moon, you won't say, oh, it's fucking beautiful. You will have this poem come out that you recite when you are a child. That makes sense. Although back then, you have no idea what they are talking about when you grow up.

have this feeling. Yeah. And you can use the poem to describe it. To express yourself. And you see the subtleties, I think, you know, how they described it and how you, oh, wow, I see it. Really nice. And you mentioned that you haven't reached that egoless. Oh, egoless. Yeah. Okay. Not really. I have to say not really. But when I was in India, it was one month yoga teaching.

So kind of and during that time when you're not actively looking for it, usually it's like that. So it's very natural. It just I felt because we need to meditate I think every day three hours and we practice yoga every day three hours as well. So anything a group setting and everyone's trying to learn so it's a perfect setting. So the set and setting are so important.

And then sometimes we would have, you know, like chanting, we would sing together in the evening. We talk about one topic, like why do we have fear or, you know, love or death, these kind of things. And I think during that time, I've had the feeling of oneness.

But it was momentary. So I have to say for me, I guess for everybody, it couldn't be forever. I don't know. Maybe someone, maybe some spiritual leaders. I don't know. But that I did experience. And...

I know it sounds amazing and it makes you also kind of want to hold on to it. For sure. And that's also, I think then I was interested in psychedelic, you know, the entire thing or the medical use and also the spiritual use of this new, I mean, it's a very untouched area and definitely in Asia.

But I was interested in that. But then I also slowly realized that I was holding on to something. Like, why do I have to, you know, be that again? So for me, I have to admit it comes and goes. So like, even when I was sharing my experience with the... I also keep telling, you know, all the people I'm sharing with...

I don't want to say that I'm teaching, not at all. I'm sharing and I also don't want to say that when I say I felt oneness, you cannot label me as someone. Oh, she knows, you know, she got it. So, you know, it's also the danger of language. Like we are so, even for our just general communication, maybe sometimes we have different understanding one word.

but we're using the same word, right? And then in the end, we have different understanding of each other or each other, how do you see the world? And so I know words are very limiting, but it's also a great, great tool, obviously.

So I'm trying always to also put the stress on the impermanence of words. So when I say I was living the moment, maybe I was, I was for a bit and that was my deepest understanding. But it doesn't mean I'm still not. I have to tell you, I distract all the time. Like I'm here, I'm there. I have to remind myself all the time. But I think the reminding process is the practice already. Yeah.

trying to make peace with it as well yeah it reminds me about the famous saying before then you see mountains mountains you see rivers oh yeah during then you see mountains oh yeah after then you see mountains mountains yeah so sometimes I feel like I'm talking about mountains but maybe the other people will

think the mountain in the first level maybe I talk about the third level it could be yeah so I found it's so hard to find people intellectual wave as the same intellectual wave as you when talking yeah I guess and I think we all have empathy for sure

But that's also something that's troubling me now. Because you know, like when I was, it's kind of funny, when I started in 2018, I was, you know, I was a beginner of yoga, so I was, you know, super into yoga. I was like, oh, love, you know, we need to love is the answer, you know. And then I was feeling every stranger is an unmet friend. And so, you know, I had this approach. It actually definitely made me very happy.

but also made me into, like, got me into situations that I actually felt I was uncomfortable with some kind of, you know, certain type of people. We're all different, but, you know, I think the deep core are the same. But we...

live the life very differently for sure yeah also how we and we're all in different stages so I also believe in relationship is great with timing I think you know we met now we kind of went through the similar process it doesn't even need to be similar we all have our path but we both kind of you know we all try to grow and then try to learn from it

And then, you know, maybe for some other people, some people grow earlier. So when they are younger, they look at us, they think, oh, what a bunch of idiots. I don't know. Maybe. And maybe some people grow later. So I think it's really timing kind of for me. It is, yeah. If in the wrong time, you met the right people. Oh, yeah. It's also wrong, right?

So how can you make sure you find your soulmate? You got married...

Yeah. Yeah, I think I got very lucky. And I have this theory of my own, like what about the soulmate? Because I was such a romantic. And so when I was young, when I was in a relationship, I thought what a soulmate is that someone who, you know, understands you without saying like the plateau, you know, like you're one piece actually. And...

Then I realized actually because of this mindset that got me into trouble with all this relationship. Because when they fail me, when they, you know, disappoint me, I would feel like, oh, this makes sense. We are not soulmates. That's why you disappoint me. But oh my God, what an immature thinking, right? So now I kind of, even because I met my husband, we were quite young the time we met, but also we had our own experiences, right?

So at that time I was thinking we are really matching, we met at the same time, perfect timing, we understand each other, and he's such a communicative person as well. And so I thought, oh, this is it, right? I got it. And then I told you in the beginning, I also realized that's not the answer. Even if he's the soulmate, it didn't solve anything. So how I realized is that

When he first time he disappointed me, you know, in some very small way. I was also a little bit shattered. I was 26 or something. I was thinking, oh, wow, even he couldn't, you know, be the one. Then I was very scared. But also during that time, I learned that, okay, actually, soulmate is a spectrum. It's really just, you know, how much percentage. So maybe...

we meet people, we meet the other person who is 90%, you know, similar, not to say similar, but, you know, fitting to us, then we feel they are soulmates. But we forgot there's still 10% to work. So relationship is work. I really believe that. It is compromise. But it is not in a negative way of compromising, I feel. So it's like...

where maybe even 80%, some people are 80% matron, but they put the 20% work, then they are 100%. So I think it doesn't matter. And definitely don't go under the 50%, right? Too much work. Yeah, too much work doesn't make sense. It's doomed. So now how I understand this really, we have so many soulmates, honestly. You will meet so many.

But the ones who understand it in a way you understand it, how you look at relationship again back to the words, right? How we use words.

is I think the most important thing to having a soulmate. Like even if you have your certain image of marriage, then if this person has a totally different one, then you got married, there's conflict. But it doesn't mean conflict cannot be solved. It just means can you maybe find a path that both of you understand, right? So for me, I think for me and my husband, it was also like a deep learning curve in our relationship.

It's not smooth. It's never smooth. But I thought it would be smooth. So it's still not. But we have ups and downs. But now, I think we are, as we both grow, it's really, it can peak all the time. You know, like we're together more than seven years. And I was with...

My friend, because seven years is like this seven years each. So I was with my best friend in Berlin and he just got married and he was very interested. He says, obviously now I'm in a honeymoon phase where first two years is always the highest point or the oxytocin, you know, the hormones, they're all there.

And then he asked, you know, how are you and him? And I was looking back at it. I felt, you know, wow, we had another peak, you know. So I think it was wrong. People shouldn't just teach their seven years each. There could be, you know, maybe 10 years another high, honestly. So I think it also made me look at relationship in a different way. So, you know, because we have so many conventional thoughts on this thing, right?

on this topic. You mentioned your husband, he's a very rational person. So how does he see the spirituality? Will he be against it? So yeah, I think he's not against it at all. Actually, he brought me into meditation. So he was practicing it first.

But he's such, I think for a certain type of people, they're so rational. They kind of don't dwell on their thoughts. So I feel my husband's very, so what he attracted me, was so attracted to me was also that he was never, you know, really holding on to anything. Right.

Yes, he was very, you know, he has senses about it like it doesn't make sense, you know, if you try to hold on to anything, even relationships. So in the beginning, I was very, you know what's funny? I can share this. He almost would never say I love you. Uh-huh.

And it was very hard for me in the beginning. I know he loves me, but I just want him to tell me. And so he would say it maybe once, three years or something. And yeah, and I was, at that time I was like, you know, I don't care. Just smooth talk me. Like talk something nice. I want to hear it. And then he would be like, yeah, I can tell you I love you now.

And I was like, so not tomorrow. So that was very childish. But it was very funny. And he says, I cannot promise I will love you tomorrow. I cannot promise I will love you 10 years from now. So at that time, I took it very personally.

I was very sad and I don't get it. But now I kind of feel that he kind of was really in the moment. You know, like he appreciates there are times he maybe dislikes me a little bit and there are times he truly loves me. And I find this so authentic. And he taught me in this way also to love that I do not, you know,

fall into my own trap. You know, like sometimes we're like, oh, I love this person. Then this means I should love him every second or, you know, I should...

I have this certain image of should, you know, or should not about it. But actually, again, mindfulness in relationship, I think it also, it's very, very helpful. So, yeah. So your question was about spirituality. He's okay. He doesn't practice anymore at all. Would that affect you for your spirituality? No, not really. Not really. So I think ultimately we are...

we are curious about the same thing. You know, like how... Why do we have this behavior? You know, why do we think even in this way? So we... Oftentimes, we would sit down and then we have a topic and then we realize we thought we understood each other, but actually...

Because of our different culture, different background, even in the same culture, right? You know, different family of growing up, different friendship, friends and influences. So there are different interpretations of a lot of things. So when it comes to this, we try to understand each other and then we realize, oh, wow, that's, you know, very interesting. Yeah.

And then it also makes the relationship interesting because, you know, you also... Because come on, you're together for so long. What's new? And, you know, I understand physiologically the passions, obviously. It just dies down physiologically. And so what keeps the sparks on is really, you know...

how you I don't know how you approach life together I guess have you found any cross culture like conflict in your relationship oh yeah there are a lot I think there are many and they're all quite funny I think oh yeah the funniest one is I'm from China and so generally we are very family oriented um

right? And I like to use the word, the pronoun we a lot. I like to say, oh, we like it. Oh, we will go there. And whenever we're with friends and then always family and we describe, if we're in Madeira together, if someone asks me, you know, how's Madeira? I would say, oh, we really like it. And then Felix says, how do you know I like it? And then

You know? So he's very funny. He makes it very clear. I am I. You are you. And then there's you and me, not we. So, you know, it's a very interesting thought, right? Like, you know, for us, a collective thinking. And then for him, it's an individual thinking. Yeah.

Yeah, so there are many details like this. That's very funny. In the beginning, it could be conflict. Like, it could be like, because I would like offended. I would be offended. It's like, why not? We did go there and you were laughing. You were smiling. I assume you're happy. But, and then he also would be like a little bit, he feels, why, why,

there's always we like so and now we understand that so when I use we and when he uses I we both don't feel offended anymore so kind of even the smallest thing right in the past you wouldn't even think about it but when you're more aware you try to understand that even the smallest thing can make a difference in the quality of communication for sure so what's your plan for the rest of the year

Yeah, the rest of year, I think, generally, I wanted to say we again. Generally, so our pattern or my pattern is that I can only plan for the next month or something. So I will go to Lisbon and then go to, passing by Lisbon, I go to Spain. So it is a we. We did want to check out Spain. We want to check out Spain together.

So, yeah, that's the next plan. And then we will see. I will see how it is. Still continue the digital norm. Yeah, I guess. I guess. I really enjoy it. But I also don't want to label it too much on myself. I think you also felt the same when you arrived here. The community is amazing. But whenever there is a community, there's, you know, there's other things. The pros and cons come together. Yeah.

So for me, I never cared if I go to a new place, if there are nomads or something. So in the past, I was curious about Chiang Mai and Bali. I went there, they're fine, they're cool.

But I also don't care if I go to Athens. If there are nomads, I don't care. I wouldn't meet, you know, expats or maybe people from, you know, local, there are locals there. So I feel it's more diverse and gives me a broader perspective of life that we are not just shaped by the idea of, oh, I have to, you know,

have commitment issues. Yeah. They have to, you know, keep roaming this type of lifestyle. But it's awesome. I think they're all independent thinkers. That's how I feel. That's not cool.

enjoy their company but it's not a necessity yeah I try not to involve with group activity too much I always feel like in a group you will have an irrational behavior oh yeah oh that's completely like typical me when I'm in a group I'm lost like I'm we right so I'm not I sometimes I told my friend oh I feel

I feel lonely because I'm not belong to anywhere. They will say, just blame yourself. You are like a void group. You chose it. Yeah, you chose it. So you accept it. So it was your conscious decision, actually. Yeah, it's my conscious decision. You know, I'm an extrovert. And I, yeah, sometimes I enjoy surrounding with people and I'm very sociable. So if I want to, I can. But I can't.

Yeah, set the rule for myself. Don't too close to the rule. Okay, so because you saw the effect on you. Yeah, I do see. Sometimes I do make an irrational decision or...

affected by other people's opinion yeah that's inevitable I think so I try to live a solitary life but you see I think it's interesting if extroverts they get energy from being in the crowd right being with people then it must be hard for you to be alone I think I think

You know, it's like a spectrum. Spectrum again, yeah. Youth can be maybe 85% extrovert. Okay. Now probably 70%. Oh, yeah, true, true. So it's changed. And I quite enjoy it, yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Now I don't need to always seeking outside for energy. I can, yeah, produce energy from within. Oh, wow, yeah. That's the best. Yeah. But still, yeah, I think the loneliness part is all the human have this feeling, yeah. Yeah.

There are people in the biggest group and feel lonely. Yeah, exactly. We feel that when we're young. I definitely felt that. I think that's just accepted. And we should. It's the same as death. We should accept loneliness. Great. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me. So much fun talking to you. We're recording this one in front of the stage. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. I don't know if we record.

Oh yeah, maybe we should catch a little bit, catch the wave. Yeah, that's good. Cool. Yeah, all the best and I'll probably see you. I'll see you again soon. Yeah, in Spain or the other part of the world. Oh, I'll hear you soon. Great.