Lord Lucan | Interview | 4
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From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. And this is British Scandal. So Alice, Lord Lucan, what a story. An aristocratic lord who falls out with his wife, tries to kill her, kills the nanny instead and then disappears. Yeah, never to be seen again. So what do you take from this story?

Well, I'm sad to say this touches on a lot of British scandal staples, really. We've got the crazy power of the closed set of aristocracy, the way that they can protect their own

A retrograde approach to mental health, we've seen that before. Engrained misogyny, what a trio. And horrible mates. Those guys at the club, the pits. And of course, at the centre of the story, it is a murder. The murder of Sandra Rivette. And in all the furore and the noise, you can lose that very important name. So on today's episode, we're going to talk to someone who is connected to Sandra. We're talking to Neil Berryman. Neil was living and working as a builder in Hampshire when his adoptive mother died. She left him a brown envelope.

In that envelope was information that would change his life forever. His story is coming up after the break.

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Neil, the story of how you found out you were Sandra Rivett's son is incredible. Tell us about the day you found out. It started off with my adopted mother, Audrey, who was quite ill, but we didn't know it. And about a year before she died, she insisted that I opened this brown envelope while she was still alive. I mean, basically, I didn't want to open the envelope at all until one of my adopted parents had died because I knew I was adopted. And I was told that I was going to die.

and I had no intentions of sort of seeking my real parents until that happened. But she kept on about this envelope because obviously she knew that there was going to be a lot of questions that maybe needed answering. She might have been the person that could answer the questions.

I basically told her that I wasn't interested in opening the envelope. It wasn't then until she did die, about three years later, that I decided that I would go in search of this envelope, which was basically in her bedside unit, so it wasn't hidden at all.

And brought it home and the contents revealed that I was Sandra Rivett's son. And what were the contents? First birthday cards, your usual sort of measurements of height, weight, the normal sort of things that when you're a baby, your usual sort of check-ups that would have been logged. And letters of adoption, mainly letters from...

Probably the sisters that had looked after me down in Portsmouth, because I wasn't adopted until I was about five months after I was born. The letters were obviously to my adopted parents, and they actually became quite friendly, which, that's another story. But there was just all sorts in there, really. And then, I mean, what was really bizarre was a 1994 two-page letter

from the Mail on Sunday, you know, about obviously this poor lady, Sandra Rivett, had been murdered by Lord Lucan and Lord Lucan had done a runner and nobody knew where he had gone. And I thought to myself, that's really bizarre. Why on earth would my adopted mother put a newspaper article in an envelope which consisted of everything else? It just didn't add up at all. So...

Well, I read the article a couple of times and I basically thought to myself, well obviously what my mother's trying to tell me is that my real mother might have come to some sort of horrible end like this poor lady Sandra. Then when I continued to read the letters and my adoption certificate and the name Hensby cropped up quite a lot, I then basically went back to the newspaper article

and realised that Sandra's maiden name was Hensby. And the connection was there, basically. And, you know, it's pretty unbelievable, but that is how I discovered that I was Sandra's son. I did send off for my proper birth certificate from the adoption centre in Wales, and that basically confirmed it. Can you remember, Neil, once you pieced that together, how you felt, what was going through your mind?

It's just impossible to believe. I mean, you can't get your head round... I mean, the emotional side of it was just incredible because what's the chances of you or anybody that's being adopted who wants to track down their real parents or their mother in particular, that is the person that's been murdered by Lord Lucan? You get involved in the greatest murder mystery of all time. It's...

you know, it's just incredible to sort of take in. It's just, you know, normally you would want to, you know, you'd maybe drive 100 miles or something and bang on somebody's door and stand there and say, oh, I'm your son, you know, nice to meet you. That was taken away from me and then I've just been embroiled in this

conspiracy of lies etc to do with Lucan's disappearance. Taking you back to that moment how much of the story did you know before you started doing your own research because of the contents of that brown envelope?

Well, not a lot really. I mean, I knew I was adopted when I was about 10 or 12. But I was, I mean, I was only seven when my mother was murdered. Everything was about Lord Lucan and it still is because, you know, probably the stories that I heard when I was a teenager was always about, you know, Lord Lucan disappearing. But it didn't mean, it didn't mean anything to me when I was younger.

You would never have dreamt in a million years, would you, that actually your real mother was the mother that was murdered by Lucan. And just thinking about the way in which you found out, why do you think your adopted mum didn't just tell you? Why did it all hinge on that envelope? Do you know what? That's a really good question. Oh, she was a lovely lady, but I just, I don't know.

Do you know, I don't know. I think she must have... She just sat on it for years because she did know that Sandra was obviously my real mother.

I don't know. It wasn't until she was obviously... Well, she knew that she maybe only had a year to go and obviously had cancer that she wanted to... Well, she was trying to tell me then, but I wouldn't have any of it. But going back further, I can't answer that question. It's quite strange, isn't it? Trying to guess, I would say it's quite hard to actually say the words and that in a way it's easier for her, for you to go away and read it rather than for her to have to say the truth.

Yeah, it would have been really difficult, wouldn't it, to have sat me down at the age of 40 or whatever and said, you know, we need to tell you about your mother. So she was quite clever in the way that she obviously packaged this envelope up and, you know, even that wasn't straightforward. I had to piece that together. It took me, you know, two or three hours to work everything out. So, you know, it was almost like it was meant to be right from the start, even from the envelope.

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Can you tell us a bit about your life before all of this, about your birth and your subsequent adoption? How much do you know about your early life? Okay, yeah, I was born in '67 down in a hospital, actually a Navy hospital down in Portsmouth.

The reason that I was born there is because Sandra, she left Croydon when she was pregnant with me and she went and lived with her sister down in Portsmouth and she got friendly with somebody that was in the Navy and they just became friends and because he was in the Navy I was allowed to obviously be born in the Navy hospital down in Southsea.

which is where I stayed for four or five months before I was obviously adopted. But my life, it was just a normal life, you know, just brought up normal people, my mum and dad were my mum and dad, just normal working class people. And then I remember one day that they did sit me down and obviously we spoke about adoption and they explained what adoption was and

They basically told me that I was adopted, but it didn't matter. Because when you've been living with somebody for sort of ten years before anyhow, and it was fine. It was just, and just life carried on as normal. And what do you know about Sandra's life?

Yeah, well, Sandra's life is only what I found out from reading books, really. You know, obviously she was, you know, a teacher at a school, looked after some children at a school where she's had lots of jobs.

I think she was very much loved and I get the impression that she was good fun and easy to get on with and, you know, really likeable. I think every job that she did do, she did well. I suppose I found out more about Sandra when I emailed Lady Lucan because I think they became very close very quickly and her mother used to obviously speak to Veronica about her past and...

They became very close and I think they had a lot in common with the way that they'd been treated by people. Veronica was obviously treated quite badly by Lord Lucan and I think my mother had a few boyfriends that didn't treat her very well. So they became quite close and Veronica was very good to me. She explained a lot about my mum over emails and I appreciate that. So how did that connection come about? Do you remember when you first made contact with Veronica?

I got her email, I think probably from somebody from the newspaper when I'd maybe done an article and it was the personal email address that I emailed her on and just introduced myself and literally within a day she got back and it was quite bizarre because I think the first line was, Hello Neil, I am so pleased that you've got in touch with me at long last.

And I thought that was fantastic. So, yeah, I know it's strange. And so then did she reveal some interesting and perhaps comforting information about Sandra? Yeah, she did. Yeah. I mean, she was, it's quite, yeah, she did. I think one of the comments was one day, what was it Sandra said? Because Sandra had lovely long hair. And I think her sister said to her, you look like a witch.

um so Sandra cut all her hair off and then her sisters grew their hair long I yeah that was a that was a comment that Veronica made and I think they had a good laugh over that but it was yeah I got on well with Veronica I mean she was quite she was very stubborn you know some of the some of the comments that she used to make on the email were quite rude um

But, you know, I didn't mind that at all. I did ask actually to meet her and weirdly enough she said, I've never met your half-brother so I have no intentions of meeting you. That was basically how it was phrased. We have struggled at times, Neil, to get a handle on Veronica's personality, to really paint a picture of her, I think, to really have an honest assessment of what she was like. How would you describe her personality, her character?

I mean, I did go through a phase when I didn't believe a word she said years ago. But, you know, actually, she did have the opportunity to tell the truth in her book before she died. And she's always stuck with the same story. And I admire her for that because actually that story is correct.

I think she was, I won't use the word, yeah, actually I will use the word, I think she was abused by her husband and she wasn't as crazy as everybody made out. I think that was all put on by Lord Lucan. When you first found out about Sandra and about your past, how did you move forward? What was your first step?

My first... Well, my first step was Google, of course. Because, you know... You know, and, yeah, I basically read everything you could read about Lord Lucan. That's a good start. To find out what he was like, who he was, his friends. I just, you know, got this huge documentation about him and the way that he obviously used to treat Veronica.

I just thought, well this isn't right, this can't be right. My mother's been murdered, he's got away with it and I'm not having it. But who am I to sort of change anything? But if you're determined and you're really tenacious, I thought, right, actually this is it. I'm going to try and find out much more about this and try and get to the truth. I then got in touch with the BBC and

because they'd done an article about the Lucan case and they might have done something on the telly and a chap called Glenn Campbell who was with Panorama he got in touch with me and he came down to visit and he'd been working on the Lucan case for about 20 years now and we just hit it off and we become good friends and he started saying stuff about what he'd been investigating and

You know, he told me a lot more about my mother and a lot more about what had gone on and we just decided that we would work together and try and get to the truth. And that was literally only about a year in after that I'd known, you know, who my real mother was. So we struck up this relationship and we're moving forward as we are now with trying to get justice and the truth. MUSIC

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Is it fair to say, Neil, after not knowing much at all about this brutal incident, that the name Lord Lucan has defined your adult life? I suppose when I first found out, especially after the first week, basically what happens is you become very emotional, you become very angry as well. And I think the anger...

You know, the anger is built up over the fact that everything is about Lucan and nothing much is about Sandra. And it's always, where did Lucan go? Who's seen Lucan? You know, he disappeared. Did he kill himself? Didn't he kill himself? And I did get really involved for the first sort of year. And then it's strange how things happen because you can have...

I suppose the first couple of years weren't so bad, but obviously it's more emotional. But then you get this determination and this drive to then find out more. And some years, you know, it's been going on about 12 years or whatever. So some years nothing happens and it's quite a relief. And then you can have five years on the trot where it's continual Luke and Luke and Luke and it just...

It takes over your life. And probably about seven years ago, I went to Scotland Yard because that was the first visit that I'd had. And the police obviously like to sort of explain things. I did witness...

some things in Scotland Yard which was my choice because I just wanted to know more about my mother and that that was really hard but it wasn't until about 18 months after that the the emotional side of what I decided to to see or you know yeah what I decided to see kicked in and

I became basically a wreck after that. Obviously, Neil, you've done so much research. You've seen stuff at Scotland Yard, you've looked at Google, you've struck up relationships with leading journalists. In a nutshell, what do you think the truth is? In a nutshell, yeah. The truth is... OK, I believe the truth is that he escaped...

That's almost fact because the police basically told us that he got away. The suicide was, that's just rubbish. Why are you so sure about that, Neil? Well, if you look into the suicide, you know, off the back of a ferry, it would almost be impossible for nothing to wash up or be found.

I mean, we're getting into a story now that could go on days, couldn't it? OK, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And I asked you to put it in a nutshell and now we're asking extra questions. But it's fascinating. Well, no, this is the thing, isn't it? Because, you know, an hour on the phone just isn't enough...

Which just isn't enough. I mean, it's so, you know, we spent 12 years on doing all this and you can imagine, you know, it's crazy. But, yeah, OK, getting back to your original question about the truth, the truth is that he did escape. He was helped by friends and... Do you think he's still alive? Me personally, I would say I know he's still alive because four years ago, me and Glenn went to Australia and we doorstepped him. What?

You met him? Yeah, we believe that we found Lord Lucan alive and yes, I have met him. Did you recognise him, Neil, from images from the past? Yeah, definitely, yes. He's had plastic surgery on his ears. He's got the scar on his nose from the speedboat accident in 1964, which actually I'm going to put the medical records of that up on our website. I mean, I don't think you'll ever get justice because I don't know where he is now. He's been moved. Who's moved him? I don't know.

Better not say who I think, but it's just, I don't know, it's difficult. So we're still on it. We're still fighting.

This is a search that has consumed 10 plus years of your life. What would represent closure for you? I don't think I'll ever get closure. There'll never be closure on this at all. What would be closure would actually be that if this old man in question died and decided to leave some envelope, which would be a bit ironic, wouldn't it?

you know, saying that he was Lord Lucan, then, and somebody picked up the pieces from there, that would be closure. Is there any part of you, Neil, that thought at any point, I wish I'd not opened the envelope, I know you waited a long time? You know what, that's a million-dollar question, isn't it? Because the amount of times that I've done several sort of interviews or even outside the High Court, I did a little documentary with Inside Out when I went to the High Court with George Bingham,

And he asked exactly the same question. And he said, do you ever regret opening that envelope? And that's quite an interesting question because when I brought the envelope home, bearing in mind it was February and it was fairly cold, and I had lit a fire because I thought it would be nice to have the fire going. And even before I opened that envelope, I stood over the fire and I thought to myself,

you know, okay, so life's going okay, I'm 40ish, you know, things aren't too horrendous, fit and healthy. Why do I want to open this envelope? Why do I actually want to know what's in it? When things are going okay, why go and, you know, if something's not broken, you know, you don't, you know, you leave it alone. And I was very tempted to actually throw the envelope on the fire and just destroy everything and just carry on with life.

But, you know, it depends. Some people's make-ups are all different, aren't they? And I thought to myself, do you know what? I just can't do it. I need to know what's in there because if I'd put it on the fire, you would have spent the rest of your life just thinking what was in that envelope. Do I wish that I'd thrown the envelope on the fire?

You mentioned George Bingham there, Lucan's heir. What's your relationship with him like? It's OK.

You know, he's got my number and I've got his and it's absolutely fine. You know, he lets me get on with what I'm doing and thinks it's a waste of money and a waste of time. Well, that's up to him. But in general, it's OK. I mean, he's a victim as well, isn't he, in a way? Because he was only seven, I was only seven. You know, his father disappeared. You know, his mother goes a bit mad. You know, they lost a lot as well, but...

you know, it's also you go back to the classes, don't you? I mean, you know, I'm working class, he's upper class and that's part of the whole story. If you rewind back to the 70s, you know, the mother was a nanny to the aristocrats and

That's how it is, isn't it? When you say that, Neil, how do you feel that that detail impacts this story for you? What's your interpretation of that? I think obviously from, you know, Lucan's background, he can get away with a lot more. I mean, you know, if you come from a different class, then you've got a lot more powerful people, haven't you, behind you than he did have. So that's, I believe that he was helped by

You know, he wasn't exactly helped by working class people, was he? And I think the inquest is quite... That states that fact where, obviously, you know, my grandparents were working class and most of the people that attended the inquest were upper class and they were more concerned about the fact that, you know, a good nanny's hard to come by these days. A quote, that is. Um...

And that's all that they were probably worried about, to be fair. One of the other people that you've sort of grown to know is your half-brother Steve, that you were able to track down as a result of finding out that you were Sandra Yvette's son. What does he make of all this? Yeah, we try not to talk too much about Stephen. Because obviously, you know, I've come from nowhere and...

It's been a lot of upset for them. I'm fresh on the scene and I'm keen to try and get justice and find this out and find that out. They're more than happy. They've had their time, haven't they? But him in particular just doesn't want anything to do with anything that I'm doing. He wishes me luck if I can get anywhere. Do people say to you, friends, family, people you meet,

Neil, you're going to have to drop this and get on with your life and stop obsessing about it. Yeah, especially my partner Kim. It's quite bizarre, isn't it? Because she, you know, she'll say, right, when you've been to the police this time, that is it. When you come back, I don't want to hear any more about it. That is it. It's finished. If they say this, will you believe them and we move on with our lives?

Okay, so then I'll come back and go, oh, well, they've said this and they've said that. And she'll say, well, right, what are we going to do now then? So she's got to live with it, hasn't she? And she's happy to live with it. And I don't talk about it so much at home anymore, to be fair. But a lot of people have said,

you know drop it just drop it you won't get anywhere and I'm the sort of person that if somebody says drop it you won't get anywhere then actually I will get somewhere and that's probably how we've got where we are at the moment Neil it's been a real pleasure we really appreciate you coming on and just being so open and honest about your incredible story thank you

Well, it's great to talk to Neil Berriman, who enlightened us even further, not just about Sandra Yvette, but about his adopted mum as well, and his take on the mystery of Lord Lucan that for many, particularly for him, still continues. And you can check out his website, lordlucanthetruth.com. Next week, we're taking a little bit of a break and rerunning our series on Alexander Litvinenko. So listen out for that.

This is the last episode in our series, Lord Lucan. If you like our show, please give us a five-star rating and a review and be sure to tell your friends. You can listen to new episodes one week early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, the Wondery app or wherever you're listening right now.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app to listen for free. In the episode notes, you'll find some links and offers from our sponsors. By supporting them, you help us offer you this show for free. Another way to support us is to answer a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. Our senior producer is Joe Sykes. Our executive producers are Jenny Beckman, Stephanie Jens and Marshall Louis for Wondery.

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