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From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. And this is British Scandal.
And I should say, Matt, I sound like this because I've lost my voice and you sound like that. Why? I had a wisdom tooth out almost a week ago and they told me I'd be fine within two or three days and it was a lie. Can I just say, this audio quality from our mouths, this is a British scandal. This is outrageous. I'm so sorry, everyone. Some people will love it. For some ASMR fans, this will be a thrill. I think they'll like yours. I don't think they'll like mine. He's actually just sucking a humbug. It's nothing to do with his teeth. So, Matt,
This is it for Diamond Geezers. We've loved this story. Completely unbelievable from start to finish. What did you make of it all? I mean, the twists and turns had us on tenterhooks. I love the adrenaline of it all. I love a good robbery story. But also, the mistakes they made, a lot of them due to their age, were so funny. I mean, the guy who keeps ordering fish and chips and then nodding off will live with me forever. Our spirit animal. But also, just the basics.
Why did they drive their own car to the crime scene? Why didn't they have a proper plan to get rid of all the loot afterwards? They did. That wheelie bin. Totally fine. This story is genuinely so hard not to get sucked into. The public certainly did. But what was it like to report on this story as it broke? Well, our guest today knows all too well. Martin Brunt is an author and Sky's crime correspondent. He was the first television reporter to arrive at the crime scene and reveal to the public that
Danny Jones had hidden a trove of stolen jewels in his family's burial plot. He's up next. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.
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Martin, welcome to British Scandal. Sorry, what you should know, Martin, is Alice lost her voice and I've had a wisdom tooth out. So if you both sound a bit weird, that's why. Yeah, it sounds like we're both drunk, but I can assure you we're not. I'll have to take your word for that. We've been discussing the Hatton Garden heist for weeks. It resonated back in 2015 and it continues to resonate now. Can you just tell us why this story captured the imagination of the public so powerfully?
I think there are several reasons, but principally it was the audacity, and that's a word that cops often use about big heists, audacious heists, and that added to the intrigue. I think it resonated for the public because there was a lot of money involved, but also because of the age of the burglars.
And they made appalling mistakes that you would expect only old people to make. All of our older listeners are going to be writing in appalled by that comment. They were. They were analogue villains working in a digital age. That's how the cop in charge described it. They simply were not aware of the technology that they were up against. They pulled off...
the raid. They got away with all the money, the loot, but they got caught very simply because one of them used his own car on the night of the raid and that was caught on a camera that recorded his number plate. Another one used his own name when he went to a store the next day to buy a replacement bit of equipment. They were very, very basic errors.
that you would not expect more professional younger villains to have made. It's interesting you say that. I wonder if it's framed differently in people's minds because of this supposed old-school charm. Well, the oldest, Brian Reader, was 76 at the time, went to carry out the heist on...
free bus pass and it sort of harked back to Ealing comedies and I think there was an element of the crime caper. People described them as latter-day Robin Hoods who'd got away with a raid that they shouldn't have got away with and that kind of added to the kind of knockabout feel of these old villains all with a quite a big criminal pedigree trying to pull off
one last job, their pension plan, if you like, thinking that they could go off and enjoy a nice retirement. And of course, to your average observer, it was a bunch of old geezers or old wheezers, as the son brilliantly put it, stealing lots of money and getting away with it, well, for about six weeks before they were caught.
You've been a crime correspondent at Sky News for over 20 years. How common is it to see these kinds of crimes being committed?
I can't remember anything quite like that. I mean, this raid conjured up previous raids that were carried out rather before I became a crime correspondent. But there was the Baker Street raid in 1971, where the villains had tunnelled in from a shop they'd rented two doors away. Again, it was a safe deposit centre and got away with quite a lot. The one...
that I spent a lot of time working on was the Knightsbridge safe deposit raid, a very similar raid to this, but also the Securitas money centre raid in Tunbridge. £51 million was stolen from this rather secretive building where money in transit was stored and nobody realised that there were these places that existed, but there aren't many people who carry out
spectacular raids like this. I mean, they don't happen very often, but most of them, most of those that I've covered, the villains end up getting caught. I suppose the ones that get away with it, we probably don't even know that the crime has happened for one reason or another.
Are there any similarities that you can draw between the cases? Are there any details that you see come up time and time again? I think it's the ambition of those involved, those who saw a huge prize at the end of it and overcame what many people would think insurmountable problems. And of course, the vault itself, it was an underground vault. It looked impenetrable.
And that added to the intrigue. How on earth had anybody got in? Not only got in, but got access to the vault underground and tunnelling under the road, blasting holes in walls, drilling holes in walls as the Hatton Garden gang did.
It's often an attack on what people think are impregnable fortresses. And of course the great irony was that this safe deposit centre had been built in the 1940s in the wake of a lot of raids on individual jeweller's premises in Hatton Garden. A lot of people kept their stuff there because they thought it was the safest place to keep it.
But I suppose at the end of the day, one common factor is that they just weren't as secure as people thought. And they weren't as secure as they should have been. So thinking back to that Tuesday morning in Hatton Garden when the break-in had been discovered...
What do you remember about that day, and who is it that tips off the crime correspondent at Sky News? Do they tip everyone off at the same time, or do you have a personal relationship with those people? One of the great things about journalism is one of the untold stories is that most of your best contacts are other journalists. And I got a call from...
a journalist who'd moved out of our business, was working in PR. He simply sent me a text message that morning saying, please call me. And because he didn't give any details and I was busy, it took me three or four hours to call him back. And I really wish I'd called him earlier. He told me that he'd heard through a contact in Hatton Garden that there'd been a raid on a safe deposit centre, an underground vault,
He had no idea whether it had been successful or how much money Lutz was involved, but already it sounded to me like something I should get down and have a look at. And sure enough, the place was sealed off. There were uniformed cops on the door. There were detectives walking in and out, looking slightly concerned. And there were a number of traders in the street gathered, talking about the rumours that they'd heard about
and trying to work out who'd lost what. We're in the business of telling stories. And in that sense, Hatton Garden is a bit of a gift, isn't it? In itself, it has this incredible history. Do you think that was part of the reason that this case transcended into the international press? I think so, yes. Hatton Garden's famous around the world as the London diamond, right?
And the name would resonate around the globe. And I remember standing on the pavement for many weeks. I was stood there for 24 hours a day talking into a camera and being joined by camera crews and journalists from other parts of the world. I mean, the Americans were interested, the Japanese, a number of European TV crews turned up.
So it had a great resonance globally, and that added to the interest amongst my own viewers. And how do you approach a story like this, Martin? When you're in the middle of it and you're the face of it on the news telling the country what's going on, how do you approach it? Do you have a particular strategy for the people you want to go and try and talk to? Obviously, you said that journalists are your best friends in this scenario, but there must be a sense of rivalry that you want to get information that, say, the BBC or ITV couldn't get.
Yes, of course. We all want to be a step ahead of the opposition. And I'm as much in opposition with the newspapers as I am with my
TV rivals, there is a huge appetite to keep the story rolling. So you talk to contacts, you swap notes with other crime reporters, you talk to the victims, because it was beginning to emerge who had been a victim amongst the Hatton Garden traders, and see if the police had told them anything. I, for several years, knew quite a few people at the Flying Squad,
So I was talking to retired Flying Squad officers, trying to find out if they'd heard anything of what had happened, but also to ask them to speculate on who might have been involved. But there was very little information coming out to reveal any of the names of suspects.
How do police contacts interact with crime reporters now compared with then? Was that very specific to the time, do you think? Police contacts with crime reporters almost came to a stop after Leveson.
The Leveson report into press and police contacts and media ethics put the kibosh on police officers talking to crime reporters or talking to any reporters. Leveson decided that the relationship between police and the press had got out of hand and had led to too many leaks, coppers behaving badly, too much in hock to...
media chiefs. So it became very difficult after 2011 for reporters to talk to police officers. Some police officers lost their jobs because they were caught briefing reporters on particular police operations. So when this happened in 2015, it was very difficult to talk, even off the record, to
Because what we didn't know was the police had got onto the gang quite early and put them under surveillance. And in the wreckage and in the process of trying to work out what had happened, presumably the raid could have been carried out by any number of people. Were there any sort of career criminals, if you like, in the frame? Did that become clear quite quickly who'd been responsible? There were always rumours from the first moments that
But when you stood back and looked at this underground vault in the heart of Hatton Garden, you had to think that this was a very professional outfit. Ironically, the vault is in the heart of the territory of one of Britain's top gangs known as the A-Team. And immediately the feeling was, well, could they possibly have done
raided like this on their own doorstep. And that seemed very unlikely. But at the same time, for another gang to come into the heart of the A-Team's territory seemed preposterous. So we all wondered whether this crime gang, whose heart was Hackengarden, had been involved in some way, but perhaps on the periphery, perhaps as organisers.
But within two or three days, the rumours started going around that Brian Reader, who was a well-known villain to all crime reporters, was one of those suspected. Though you knew the name Brian Reader, did this seem, in his wheelhouse, did this seem more ambitious than anything you knew he'd done before? Well, Brian Reader had been involved and been jailed
in the 80s for his part in another big heist, the Brinksmap robbery at Heathrow when 26 million pounds of gold bullion had been stolen. Not that Reader and his gang had been expecting to find that. They were looking for cash, but they ended up with 26 million pounds worth of gold and
That was really their downfall because they didn't really know how to deal with it. So he was a big name because he got jailed for that. But even more so, he was a neighbor of another notorious villain, Kenny Noy. Noy and Reader had stood trial at the Old Bailey for the murder of an undercover police officer who Noy had found hiding in his garden.
This was in the wake of the Brinksmouth robbery. And Reader and Noy were both acquitted of the murder, but both went to jail for the Brinksmouth robbery. So Reader had a great history of serious crime. But when his name popped up on the rumour mill, it seemed rather ridiculous. He was 76. As far as anybody knew, he'd retired. He had got a nice home in Kent.
Why on earth would he, at his age, be looking to get involved in something like this?
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You used a great phrase earlier, analogue criminals in a digital world. Would I be wrong to say, and I'm sure so many people listening to this series have thought this, actually, had they committed this crime in the 70s or 80s, they'd have probably gotten away with it.
They might have done, but when you pull off a huge raid like this, as well as the public and the media getting interested, the whole underworld gets very interested. Other villains want to know who was involved and how they did it. And people inevitably talk in pubs and clubs and cafes. And as proved with this gang, they couldn't help themselves enough
chatting amongst themselves, how they'd got away with it, boasting of their success. And I think inevitably, if this happened in the 70s and 80s,
in that kind of golden era of robbery, I think they were so loose-tongued that other villains would have picked up on it. And of course, there's always a reward offered by the police in these circumstances. And there'd been a lot of petty villains who would have found that irresistible and gone to the police with a name or two to get the police on their trail.
This is one of those cases where people almost find themselves rooting for these criminals. Is that partly to do with the fact that safety deposit boxes are seen as the preserve of the wealthy and the privileged, and actually some old-age pensioners with Cockney accents getting their hands on that stuff didn't bother us too much? Well, that nobody got hurt, I think, was a big factor. People looked at this...
We can't call it a robbery, principally because nobody was hurt. Nobody was threatened with violence. They didn't encounter their victims on the night of the raid. That made it a more kind of acceptable event in the eyes of the public. The feeling was, well, hey, does it really matter? Because...
Almost certainly, there'll be people who have stuff in there that they don't want to declare because it's stolen property or, you know, they're dealing with other villains and this is stuff that they are going to use.
to help them fund other crimes. And there probably were lots of wealthy people who could have afforded to lose what they lost, who aren't really seen as victims. But the thing that you should never lose sight of is that principally,
That was a deposit centre for those small-time jewellers and craftsmen who worked in Hatton Garden, who were under a lot of pressure at the time because of the development of Crossrail. Rents were going up. A lot of them had already been driven out.
by the attraction of this area to landlords and the ability they had to shoot up the rents that the traders were being charged. So some were already working from home, having had to give up their rental shops.
They had an awful lot to lose. And I spoke to traders as weeks went on, some of who said they would be lucky if they got back 25% of what they lost, maybe a third if they were really lucky. But there were others who probably never got back 25%.
what went missing because remember there's still two-thirds of what was stolen out there that the police haven't recovered. Obviously one thing Robin Hood did was steal from the rich but the other thing he did was give to the poor and that's not something these guys did was it? This was for personal gain. So I wonder about the profile of these guys and their personality. I mean they might be older fellas and they weren't physically harming anyone but are these nice guys? I mean in other circumstances would we be right to regard them as dangerous men? I
I got to know two of them. Hugh Doyle was a very peripheral figure, a very chatty, charming Irishman whose only role, for which he got, I think, 21 months in prison, was to let gang members who he knew from drinking in a pub in North London use the forecourt of his plumbing business to transfer property from one vehicle to another. And at that point that they all got nicked,
by the police. He was a really charming guy who eventually was released from prison on bail and we used to sit and chat to him in the ante room before court. I always got the impression that Hugh wasn't a serious villain and had rather got caught up in this, not really understanding what he was getting involved in. Danny Jones had a history of robbery and theft, as did them all. And I suppose if
they were plotting to steal your property, you would consider them dangerous. But I don't think there's any, apart from Brian Reader, I'm not aware of any history of these people being involved in violence, perhaps the threat of violence, which is terrifying enough for the victims. But I don't think any of them, apart perhaps from Huey Doyle,
you would really want to consider your friends. What was the courtroom element of this like? Danny and Terry had bragged that they'd got away with it, and even at one point said they'd regretted not getting a selfie outside the vault. But did they carry that bravado, that cockiness, into the courtroom? No, they didn't, because the four principals, Danny Jones, Brian Reader, John Collins, Terry Perkins, had all pleaded guilty.
So that bragging, that cockiness had emerged from them meeting up in the days and weeks after the raid when they were being recorded by the police. So by the time they appeared in court for sentencing, it was a very different scenario. They knew that they were going to spend several years in prison and wanted to keep it to a minimum. So there was none of that bravado, none of that bragging.
They ended up with, what, six or seven years in jail. And of course, so much of the loot was missing and they wouldn't tell the police where it was. They got several years on top of that. In your mind, was there a sense that there was honour amongst thieves? Because we know none of them ratted the others out. Is that a fair appraisal? Up to a point, yes. I mean, they had fallen out over some things, but generally they met...
and had a drink together in a pub. And these are the principles I'm talking about. But there was one issue of ratting each other out because they refused to say where the missing loot was. But they were being kept in very tough conditions in a unit within the secure unit in one of Britain's most secure prisons. Danny Jones wrote to me and told me that he wanted to hand his loot back
and wanted the police to take him out of Belmarsh prison so he could show him where he'd buried it, but the police were refusing to do that. Belmarsh is a notoriously appalling prison, a category A prison. It's a prison that's featured in some of our previous stories here on British Scandal. How unusual is it for a prisoner to be able to correspond so frequently with a journalist from a place like that? Well, I was very surprised. I mean, I've written to lots of villains over the years and most of them don't reply.
But I did think that there wasn't much chance of him, A, wanting to respond or being allowed to. And I thought even if he did want to write to me, his letter would be intercepted or at least read because we exchanged letters while he was writing.
to appear in courts. And I didn't get any sense that the letters had been read or opened. And you could always usually tell if somebody had steamed it open and then closed it again. I think if they had steamed it open inside the prison, they probably wouldn't have let it continue on its journey to me. From those letters, what portrait can you paint of him? And
Does that match up to the man that you saw in court? I remember getting the odd nod and wink from the doc to where I was sitting in the press bench. He was on his best behaviour, but he was quite humorous. He had a real sense of humour that emerged from his letters, but he felt pretty miserable, as they all did. They were, in his words, just a bunch of old fellas.
The phrase he used was dad's army. Worse than dad's army. He said dad's army are like super sportsmen compared with this gang. He said, you know, how ridiculous it was that they were all locked up in such secure conditions. No visitors for several weeks. He couldn't understand it. He said in one letter he'd even written to the Archbishop of Canterbury to ask if he could help them.
improve conditions inside prison. And the Archbishop had written back saying that he couldn't help him, but he'd pray for him in his next church service and told him that being famous, he said in the letter, must now seem a pretty poor reward. Best wishes, Lambeth Palace. But you get what must have felt like at the time a bit of divine intervention because he gives you a scoop about the location of some of the jewels.
Yes, I mean, it was extraordinary. And for several weeks, I just didn't believe him. I thought he was winding me up. And if I did the story, I'd look rather stupid. I was just going to say, how do you make that call or how do you clarify that? Well, I did the story eventually because Jones was insistent. He kept writing letters to me saying, you know, I'm serious. I want to go straight. I'm
You know, after all these years, I've got set up with my life as crime. I want to do the decent thing. And I also spoke to his solicitor and everything suggested that this was a serious attempt to show police where he'd buried his share of the loot and to go straight. But because he kept asking me and I mean, he asked me three times to do the story. I thought, well, he's so persistent that I'll take a chance.
And of course, one of the reasons that stopped me doing it initially was that somebody at Scotland Yard told me that if I did it,
I would, in a sense, be dropping Danny Jones in it because how did I know that the loot he wanted to hand back to the police, if it existed, was his own? He might be offering to hand back loot that principally belonged to some of the other gang members. And if I was to run that story, I was putting Danny Jones in jeopardy
while he was in jail from other gang members or from their friends who were also in prison. So it stopped me in my tracks.
Let's face it, we were all that kid. So first call your parents to say I'm sorry, and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a $0 delivery fee for your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 per order. Additional terms apply. Just thinking about your role in all this, what's the protocol when you're about to publish something that may not work in an investigation's best interest? Do you have to let the police know what's coming?
I think if I'm going to publish something that might have an impact on the investigation,
I think I have to, well, I do think very carefully about what potential impact it would have. And that really did apply to revealing that Danny Jones wanted to show the police where he buried his loot and they were refusing to take him out of prison and show them. I had to go to them to tell them what I was about to do because it was a very big issue.
angle on the story. And I really wanted to know why they were refusing to take Danny Jones out of prison. He couldn't understand it and neither could I. So eventually I kind of bit my lip, held my nerve. I discussed it with my news editors. I discussed it with our lawyer.
Danny Jones was so insistent. He was an old school villain. He was a tough guy. He knew what he was doing. He'd asked me three times to reveal what was going on. And to my surprise and delight, decided that it wouldn't have happened.
any lasting impact on the investigation. And I don't believe that it did. And of course, some weeks later, it did end up with the police taking him out, him directing them to Edmonton Cemetery, not far from where Danny lived, and pointing them to a memorial plaque over some buried ashes in the cemetery. And that's where they found two or three million quid in a bag.
But the great irony and hilarious moment was the police saying to him at the time, as they dug up this buried loot, Danny, is that all there is? And him saying, yes, absolutely. That's all my share. And what...
He didn't know was that the police some weeks earlier had already found another of his stashes. And that's why they wouldn't take him out of prison, because they had already found what they thought was his loot. So there was a kind of double bluff going on on the sides. And who's to know that there isn't a third stash hidden somewhere? Or more. Or more. I mean, there's still two thirds of the loot. There's still about...
What, eight, nine million pounds worth of stolen goods out there somewhere, you know, in somebody's attic or converted into cash?
It could be anywhere in the world. And have you ever heard any rumours about where any of it might be? Unfortunately, I haven't. If I had, I would... You wouldn't tell us anyway. I wouldn't tell you and I'd have gone off in pursuit of it by now. You may have read... Is that why we always see you with a metal detector? Well, I mean... Not great for diamonds, but... No, the truth is that some of it... I mean, this stuff...
When you pull off a very high profile raid like this with recognisable stones in settings, it's almost too hot to handle. Uncut gems would be easier to get rid of, but a lot of the stuff would have been hidden
in somebody's home, if not the principals, they may have given it for safekeeping to other villains who'd have stuffed it behind skirting boards or up drains. So the idea that it's all disappeared around the world is probably a bit fanciful. I bet a lot of it is much nearer home
Those involved in holding it are just waiting for an opportunity when they feel the heat is off to start getting rid of it. But the police will never forget that there's so much missing. Those details are amazing. Imagining them, you know, literally under the mattress or under the floorboards. And that's such a good illustration of this situation.
DIY loathe by nature, this kind of small-time crookery, but on a really large scale. I mean, it's not unusual for villains who pull off something spectacular like this to feel the pressure because it's such a high-profile raid. I remember talking to Bruce Reynolds, the mastermind of the Great Train Robbery,
in 1963 saying that they were under such pressure, they couldn't get rid of the money straight away because everybody in the country was looking for stolen money and anybody acting suspiciously with large amounts of cash. And they ended up actually throwing some of it away, leaving it in telephone boxes. It's extraordinary to understand how difficult villains find it.
to get rid of property, cash, gold. I think this probably applied in this case as well. So they've committed the crime, they expect to do the time. In your mind, do you think that the punishments that were handed down were appropriate? I think they were very careful in the planning of this heist to make it a burglary and not a robbery. And the difference is a robbery...
is a much more serious crime that attracts a much bigger sentence. And you have to be violent towards victims or at least threaten them with violence. And that's the difference between a burglary and a robbery. This was simply a break-in. So I think at the back of their minds,
was that even if the worst thing happened and they got caught and sentenced, they weren't going to attract very long sentences. And I think this was a bit of frustration for the police, who clearly wanted to get as long a sentence as they could, because these were villains who had, in a sense, sort of copped a snooker.
the establishment. They'd pulled off this audacious raid, but it was a burglary and not a robbery. So I think they were very clever to not go armed. And after seven years, Danny Jones got out and probably felt he'd done enough time. He's still quite young, not even 70 yet. And apart from Terry Perkins, who died in prison, they are all still alive. And if they still have buried loot somewhere,
At some stage, we'll go and dig it up and hope that there aren't being put under surveillance by the police. Do you think it'd be possible for a group of individuals to do a thing like this now or a heist like this, the thing of the past? They're quite rare, these heists. And they became rare because the Flying Squad got very successful in
intercepting them or tracking down the villains after they got away with it. Technology helped the police and was bad news for the villains. So we don't see these kind of raids now, but they are something that serious villains aspire to. And there probably is somewhere somewhere.
Someone who has an eye on putting off something like this, but will have learned the lessons that the Hat and Garden gang didn't learn and will be much more careful about the way they behave when, if they pull off such a raid. As you said, Martin, Danny got out in February of this year. Will you ring him up, talk about the old days?
I'd ring him up if I had his number. I do have a contact with his family, but to my great regret, Danny has managed to refuse all my attempts to get in contact with him. And I'm not surprised. I mean, we had our moments in our letter exchange,
And whether it did him any good in the end, whether it helped reduce his sentence because he had shown the police where at least some of his loot was, I don't really know. I think he probably used me, not that I minded. I got a great scoop out of it. I'm very grateful to him for helping me do a great story. It was for his own ends, but we struck up a relationship of sorts.
I'd love to meet him and have a drink with him and have a coffee as we talked about in our letters that we would do. But I don't know whether maybe I'll bump into him in the street one day. We'll see. It certainly was a great story. Martin, thank you so much. My pleasure.
If you like our show, please give us a five-star rating and a review and be sure to tell your friends. In the episode notes, you'll find some links and offers from our sponsors. Please support them. By supporting them, you help us offer this show for free. I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. This episode was produced by Dee King. Our executive producers are Stephanie Jens and Marshall Louis for Wondery. Wondery.
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