Where does the term MILF come from?
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Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. I'm your host, Claire Donald. And I'm your other host, Tess Palomo. And guys, we have a very, very special guest today. We have Jessica Bennett from In Retrospect Podcast. Hi, Jessica. Hi, Jessica.

Hi, how are you? We're great. We're so excited to have you on. Yes, this episode's going to be interesting. It sure is. We were just talking to Jessica. We first discovered their podcast because, in retrospect, was on Watch What Happens Live as bartenders. I guess we could say we're fellow bartenders now.

You could say that. And so we were just gabbing about our experience before and man, we wish we could go back. We do. But you guys paved the way for us. Yeah, you literally were. You inspired us to be like, I can do that too, right? You know, just trailblazing. Yeah. Bravo bartending space. Just casual, you know. Exactly. But tell us a little

bit about in retrospect, because I feel like our listeners are going to really gravitate towards y'all as well. Yeah. So in retrospect is co-hosted with one of my pals, Susie Bannacarum. She and I have worked in media and journalism together for years and years and often would find ourselves on the phone late at night.

complaining about the state of media and feminism and also pop culture. And so what the podcast does is it looks back at cultural moments, pop culture moments from the 80s and 90s when we were growing up through the lens of today. And oftentimes, if you look back at those and remember what we learned, we

It can be a little disturbing in retrospect. Sure can. Sure can. But, you know, we're not here to shame or blame. We just like going really deep down into rabbit holes about things like, I don't know, Dawson's Creek, or for instance, what we're going to talk about today, the evolution of the word MILF, and figuring out what those things taught us about being women in the world.

We love that. I feel like not a hangout with your girlfriends goes by that you don't get into feminism and taking down the patriarchy. Exactly. All my favorite ones. We like to say we're fake journalists, and so actually having a real journalist here is very special. I know, truly. I'm like, oh, I'm intimidated. We're starstruck.

Wait, you worked for the New York Times? Yeah, I work for the New York Times. I am an editor and writer there. And this podcast has been like a fun side project that I get to do with Susie through iHeartRadio. We're so big time that we have a New York Times journalist. So also something that we do on our podcast is that we –

we humanize citations and create a family tree, but we haven't done, like we say, Wikipedia is our stepfather, history.com is our mother. So we haven't done the New York times yet, but we'll let you know which family member it is. By the end of this episode, we will claim it as something. Oh my God. That'll really tell us a lot about how it proceeds. Yeah.

Well, we're so excited to hear about the MILF today. We sure are. Yeah, where do you want to begin? I mean, I assume, do we need to define what the MILF is? Let's define because we do have quite the age range on here that you just never know. That is so true. There's no shame if you aren't familiar. So, mom, I'd like to fuck.

Yeah. Which it's just so funny because like I remember hearing about that in seventh grade probably for the first time. And it's so like graphic and you're just like a bunch of 12 year olds just like, yeah, I'm on my one. Yeah.

She's like, whoa. Yeah. Classic. Well, and there was a moment in like the early 2000s when Brittany, this was before she had kids, was walking around very frequently in a Future MILF shirt. Oh, my gosh. So I feel like that was another cultural moment for the MILF. Well, the graphic tees just were everything. I wore a shirt that said Future MILF. No, you did. To a party in college. Okay. That's all I'll say about what the theme was.

What year was that? That was in 2011. Okay. All right. I remember sending it to my boyfriend at the time, his dad, and his dad said, proud of you. Stop. I was like, why am I doing that? I don't know. I don't know and I don't want to know. Hey, we love some manifestation, I guess. That's great. That's great.

um amazing well so i think that i probably first learned that word in high school when the movie american pie came out and i don't i feel like i might be a little bit older than you all and sorry that my dog is barking in the background tell me if you want me to pause otherwise i'll just talk through it we support the dogs are always welcome here okay yeah um

American Pie came out in 1999 when I was a junior in high school. And you may remember there was a very famous MILF in that movie played by Jennifer Coolidge, who was Stifler's mom. Yes. Oh, my God. I haven't seen it for a little disclaimer. I haven't seen it since I was probably like 13. Yeah. What do you remember about it?

I remember I wasn't allowed to watch it, and I think I secretly watched it, and I was, like, blushing the entire time. Like, I was just like, is this what boys do? This is crazy. Sex is scary. Yes. I actually have never seen the movie in full. I hope that doesn't hinder anything for our lesson today. But I do know, like, the classic lines, like this one time at band camp, and I think that a man, in fact, does fuck a pie. Yeah.

Yes. You know? Yes. It's true. It's confirmed. I mean, that movie, you should watch it because it would just be funny. And so American Pie is coming up on its 25th anniversary, which was part of the reason why we decided to revisit that movie in particular and then zero in on the idea of the milk. But it is so raunchy and gross and cringe, even for today's standards. Like there is not a moment in that film when you are not like,

oh my god I cannot believe I'm watching this and like I hope that my parents are not in the room doing so because it's just so awkward and so yes there is a man who masturbates with an

an apple pie. Um, and that became a thing that teens did in the late nineties after watching that film. And I know this because I've gone down very many deep rabbit holes about it now, but, uh, one even got some third degree burns, um,

Just trying to practice. You have to wait for it to cool off. Exactly. That's the lesson here. You know when you're like eating a piece of pie though and you're like, I just can't wait, you know. Actually, I get it. Like I always burn the roof of my mouth on anything. Some things are just a little bit more delicate than others. Wow.

um, gross. So yeah, there's, I mean, there are so many moments in American pie that you could unravel and unpack each individual. And the band camp one that you mentioned is another really funny one, um, or creepy, or I don't know what the right adjective to describe it is, but as someone who was in the orchestra in high school, um,

and I played the violin, but there were flutists in the orchestra as well. And for those who may not have seen the movie, I guess we'll spoil this, but one of the characters has this line about, well, one time at band camp, and she describes masturbating with a flute. Yeah, which also just seems tricky. Like, yeah, there's easier ways. We'll just

We'll just put that out there. There's many complications. But I will just never forget that, like, every female flautist in the orchestra was, like, forever being pictured in that way. Oh, gosh. I'm sure. God, you just, like, hide your flute behind your back after that. Right? Well, I just remember it was such a thing to then start asking, you know, like, boys, like, have you ever done it? Like...

You know, when I was like 12 or 13, it was then like you start asking all the questions. Wow. Yeah. It's upsetting. It's upsetting. But, you know. So, okay. There are all these grotesque and awkward moments in American Pie. But I, as a word nerd and a journalist and someone who is obsessed with language and loves to find out origins and linguistic roots of things, really wanted to talk about the term MILF.

Because I believed that going into this, that this was actually the first time I'd really heard that word spoken. And it certainly popularized it. Like, I think you could probably still say today that Jennifer Coolidge is the most famous MILF in America. Iconic. Yeah. Yeah. Or Stacey's mom. Yeah, I was just going to say that. Yeah, Stacey's mom. It was around the same time. And then, like...

Coolidge goes on to play these various MILF-like characters in future things as well. And even in some of her more recent stuff, like she's the older woman who talks about sex and is like funny and flirty. But in this film, she plays the mother of a guy named Stifler, who's sort of like

the bro-y, douchey, cool kid at whatever the high school is in middle America that the American Pie teenagers go to. And these teenagers

grubby teenage boys are all trying to lose their virginity as was the plot point in many films from that era what else mattered and there's this famous scene in the film where they're at a party at Stifler's house Stifler like throws all the parties and you know they're drinking out of like those red solo keg cups and

And they're in some hallway somewhere and there's a photo of Jennifer Coolidge, Stifler's mom on the wall. And the guys are like, dude, who's that? You know, like, dude, guy for like teen guy voice from the 90s. Who is that? Like, shoot, that chick's a milf. And then they define one of them defines on the air. I guess it's not on the air in the film.

MILF, mom, I'd like to fuck. And then they all laugh and they start chanting MILF, MILF, MILF, MILF. Naturally. Like this is American cinema. This is art. Right? This is teenage boys. And, you know, I would say that I think from that moment on, like the word MILF was cemented into the American psyche and into the American lexicon.

And so like years later in 2011, when you were wearing your Feature Melf t-shirt, that probably could be traced back to that original scene in American Pie. That's crazy. I probably didn't even know. Right? It just became part of the vernacular and something that people talked about.

But I was really curious. So like, okay, these screenwriters couldn't have come up with this on their own. I mean, I guess they could have, but they probably didn't. So like, where did the word MILF actually originate? And was it just that American Pie made it really popular? Or had they, in fact, come up with it? So...

I went down a linguistic rabbit hole that I will take you through. That started with going to a friend of mine who's a linguist who chairs something. This is all like the most word nerd stuff ever. He chairs something called the New Words Committee at the American Dialect Society. Oh, wow. And I know this because at one point I wrote an article about this.

the annual convention for new words that these linguists get together and host every year. And it's very fun because they all sit around and they nominate whatever the new slang words are. You're so cool. You've probably like heard about this or read about this. No, I haven't. But can we get in touch? Because we have some words that we'd like to add, like show. Oh, yes. We do have some words that we'd like to. Yeah. Instead of we add SH to things and a lot of people really don't like it, but a lot of people love it. But also put us on

Yeah, exactly. So we would say like show anyways, instead of so anyways. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. So it's like your own dialect. Yes. And we like schwat instead of what? Like you can really do a lot of things with it. Yeah. So we'd love to talk to your friends and have a meeting. Yeah, we'll talk offline. So yeah, let me know. We can make some interest.

And they would love that. And so this word convention is like the greatest thing ever. But the point is, I called this guy. His name is Ben Zimmer. He knows everything about new and old words and slang words and acronyms and anything else that you could think of. And I was like, look, I know you're like a very serious linguist and you have like a real job and it's very important, but I really need to get to the bottom of MILF. So can you help me? Priorities. Yeah. Priorities.

Priorities. And he was like, well, actually, Jessica, I have done this research myself. So, in fact, I have looked into the mouth. And what he found was that and this is just so funny. The first known usage was in a newspaper in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s.

And it was the name of a band. And so it was basically like some local newspaper and there was like a listing for like the bands that are going to be playing the local pub that weekend or whatever. And there was one called MILF and then there was one called Tugboat Annie. So when Ben, the linguist, discovered this, he was like, all right, well, I need to find out, like, did they mean it in that way or was it just a funny play on words? Yeah.

So he actually tracked down one of the original band members on LinkedIn, who's like, you know, now has a very serious job. Yeah. Like what's he doing these days? Would love to know. He's like in corporate. Yeah. Didn't want to be affiliated with his former MILF band. You can't escape your past. No, you really can't. You shouldn't. You shouldn't. Right. Yeah.

But he confirmed that, yes, it did stand for Mom, I'd Like to Fuck. And they he and his like other teenage male bandmates had heard it from these lifeguards at Niagara State Park.

Because those lifeguards would like refer to, I guess, like the hot moms on the beach. Oh, yeah. I'm sure they were like having a great time on. Isn't that funny? And also like Niagara, it's like upstate New York, like the weirdest place that you like. I don't I just think of mills. It's like California. That's what I was about in like a red bathing suit. Yeah, totally. So California or like Australian or something. Yeah. Hot and sunny. Blonde. Yeah.

It's funny. So that's the actual origin of the word. But then it kind of makes its way across the country in different ways. So...

There was then an issue of a magazine that's called Motor Booty. And I know that sounds like an erotic car magazine, I guess. But it actually was like an arts and culture magazine that existed. They could use a little rewrite. So they start talking about MILFs because they're specifically referencing an issue of Playboy in which there was a spread of hot moms.

And I don't believe that the Playboy spread actually used the word MILF, but then in the discussion of the spread, they were using the term MILF.

And then at some point, the term does make its way to California, which I love because I feel like it belongs in California. And we know this because the linguist gets in touch with another linguist who worked at a state university in California, in Northern California, where she decided to conduct this study of undergraduate students where she was polling them about, I don't know, kind of like slang and or derogatory words that they use for women.

And MILF is a one, is among those words. So MILF has then made its way from Buffalo to California. And then this other linguist publishes this emergence of MILF in a study that's called something like

Skanky hoe bags and MILFs. Like linguistic, like some really academic subtitle. There's no separation. If you're a MILF, you have to be a skanky hoe bag. Well, she was referring to the other terms in her study. Anyway, point is...

MILF makes its way to Northern California and Northern California is not that far from Hollywood. And so I have to imagine that somewhere in there, one of the screenwriters or one of the actors involved in American Pie hears about this term and decides to put it into the film.

Wow. So it all started from this band. Yeah. Right? That's crazy. Well, from the lifeguards. Oh, the lifeguards to the band. And I was like, Buffalo? Like, is there even a beach in Buffalo? I know. But I guess there's lakes. I guess that's true. Oh, yeah, that's true. Wow.

I just like love that people like yourself too, who are like distinguished journalists are dedicating time to the, like the, this is where the work really happens. Exactly. Oh my God. This is where we line up. Thank you. Yeah. You know, um,

And yeah, so it's just so funny. And, and you can actually track it, like you can track the usage, you can track the popularity of it, you see it start to emerge in more books, and in more like Google Trends searches, and in more merch, like then suddenly, it's on merch everywhere. And after American Pie came out, there was even this kind of like, MILF lit genre that emerged.

Like there were all these books that came out in the following years that were like the MILF's guide to blah, blah, blah. Oh my God. Or like MILF does X. And so MILF was even making its way into publishing. Wow. I mean, it makes...

sense right just because it's it's a fantasy yeah and any like I mean people love to categorize you know women and sexual and in sexualized ways and so it's like of course if it's a mom we want a fucker yeah yeah and you could go down a whole rabbit hole with that too exactly

Totally. And I mean, it is interesting to think about too, just kind of like our notions of what a MILF is. And when we were going very deep into this, Susie and I, my co-host, were having a conversation about like,

All right. Well, what's the difference between like a MILF and a cougar? Like, is there some nuance? Like it is like a MILF is sexualizing an older woman, but she has to be a mother. Right. Right. And a MILF is typically like the you imagine like a younger you imagine a prepubescent boy or like a younger man typically who's like.

yearning after just older women. Like just seeing boobs for the first time and you're just like, what are those? Yeah. Yeah. Whereas a cougar I think is more like, has like a predatory connotation maybe. Like, so you imagine a cougar going after a younger person? Yeah. Well, I think we still see that today when like,

Sorry for the tangent, but like Kristen Cavallari right now is dating a 24-year-old boy and she's 37 years old or 24-year-old man, whatever you want to call it. And the comments on the internet, it makes it – everyone is like you are a predator. You must have mental illness. You're a predator.

you're doing something disgusting. Whereas when a man is dating a younger woman, of course people are like, that's kind of creepy, but it's like, nah, that's just what it is. She must like him for this and he must like her for that. But they make women out to be predators if you're interested in someone younger, which is disgusting. Yeah. That's such a good example. And I hadn't actually seen those comments online. That's what everyone's saying. It's a little mixed, but like mainly people are going to be pissed about it for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, and then meanwhile you have like Leo. Oh my God. I mean, Robert De Niro has like a month old baby, you know? Right. Right. So there's, I mean, MILF, it's like you can kind of analyze MILF from every angle because it says so much, I think about women and about double standards, but also about language. It's kind of fun to say, like it's kind of fun and funny to make fun of, I guess. Right.

Do you still have your t-shirt, do you think? Yeah. You know, I wish I did. I probably donated that. I wonder who has it right now is actually. And who's wearing it. God, I wish you had it so you could wear it today. I know. Same. Something that you said made me think of this so that it is interesting like with women and with these ideas that we have about women and motherhood and moms that it's like a mom that I'd like to fuck. Yeah.

where it's almost like most moms are not fuckable, you know, or not sexy. Now that they have a kid, it's just like, it's a very specific thing. Now that's a mom I would like to fuck in a certain category. It's like a rare breed. Yes. Of like, oh, she can have kids and be desirable? That's crazy. Well, that is interesting too because, yeah, a friend was saying to me like,

Oh, yeah, I'd love to be a MILF. You know, like to her, it wasn't. And she is a mother. It wasn't a degrading thing. It was like, yeah, that sounds great because I have had children and people don't think of me as like a sexual being. Isn't that so upsetting? Which is so crazy because it's like you just did the most powerful thing in the entire world that anyone will ever do. You know, it's interesting, too, because it's like.

So then you have these other terms of endearment or like of to call someone an icon, like to call someone mother or mom. Like those are both now compliments that we use in slang. Yes. And one of my students actually, so I teach journalism students at NYU and the class is called Reporting the Zeitgeist. So basically their job is to like

alert me to funny things that the youth are doing on the internet. That is so fun. It's really fun. And so they know that I'm big into language and love language stories. And so one of them was explaining to me that actually MILF in the last year or so has made kind of a comeback at almost used akin to the way that we use mother where it's like, Oh God, she's so MILF.

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I'm Jalenta Greenberg. And I'm Kristen Meinzer. You may know us from our podcast, By the Book. And together, we also host How to Be Fine. In each episode of How to Be Fine, we dive into the good and the bad side of the wellness industry, from charlatan influencers to science-backed studies on happiness. And all this season, we're going deep on the subject of friendship. Why is it that so many of us have so few friends right now?

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But not necessarily even used for women who have children, like actually just used for any woman who, I don't know, the fan on Twitter or wherever thinks is cool. That's so interesting. Just being like a powerhouse, basically, in the same way, like you don't have to have children to be mother. Right, exactly. Or like in the way that you would call Madonna mother or the people do call Madonna mother or like queen or whatever, you could call her MILF.

I hadn't heard that before. I haven't either. We're learning so much. Is your language so fun? Yes, it is. This podcast keeps us young. Yeah, it really does. Thank God. Thank God, because we said things in the past that people are like, that's absolutely incorrect. Yeah, we're like, whoopsie. Like the Raz instead of the Riz. We still call it the Raz. Yes, we do. Yeah. See, you do know about the annual word of the year, because Riz was chosen as one of the words of the year, like last year or whenever. Really? That was the convention that I'm talking about. Oh, I see.

go here. I want to go there too. What's it like there? Is it like, are there like apps and drinks? No. Okay. So think of like the least, I love that. That is what you think. No, it's like the, it's usually in, it switches locations every year and it's usually in like the convention hall of a hotel with like brown carpets and it's like really dingy and there's no apps and there's no drinks. Maybe there's like a tub of water. I was imagining you in like a ball gown. No, oh my God, I wish. With like a bookshelf and library. It's like the least sexy thing imaginable.

And it's just like all these like PhD doctoral candidate, like it's like nerd Superbowl. That's honestly kind of iconic to picture those people sitting around and be like, so let's talk about milfs. It's amazing. And so then you get, they get up and they like nominate these words. And so in the times that I've been there, like it will be, let's see, at the last one I went to, I wasn't even writing about this one. I just went for fun because it was in New York. It happened to be in New York. So I said something about me.

But they were arguing for serving cunt as one of the words of the year. Iconic. Right? And so it's like, but they're like so serious about it. And so they're like, well, and the linguistic origin. And you're just like sitting there watching. You're like, oh, my God. You're like, please blush. Please do it. Oh, my God. Honestly. And then they all vote.

and so if you're voting you can object like it's a whole like theater linguistic theater yeah it sounds like a satire of something though there should be a tv show about this i actually honestly should love the phrase and i'm glad that it's coming back into we're not coming back i think for the first time being mainstream of serving cunt i love right love it's

pretty fun yes it is yeah so it's really funny yeah do you do you have a favorite word I'm like you'll probably also have to define it for us um oh my gosh I I probably do it maybe it'll come to me yeah I just put you on the spot yeah

There's so many fun words. I mean, I just like learning about new words. Like I like to know what the kids are saying. Yes, of course. And usually it has something to do with, or it's like a play on what we said. Like even cringe, for instance, like I don't know if you grew up saying cringey, but we would always be like, oh, that's so cringey. And now the kids are like,

Yeah, that's cringe. You don't even get it. And I'm like, no, we do. Yeah, like, drop the why. Cringe is wild, though. Like, it is starting to be... I was actually watching something the other day where they're talking about how cringe has almost gone too far. That, like, people can just be human and say something that you might not like. But people are like, oh, that's so cringe. So you drop someone, you know? Well, is the new version, like, the ick for cringe? The ick. Oh, maybe. All of it. I guess, I mean, I think, like, the hyper...

her belief of language is super interesting too it's like everything yeah so you're like oh that's you say like a completely benign thing you're like oh yeah can I have a coffee with milk and it's like that's so cringe yeah you're like that's not current like what because I didn't get hazelnut or whatever um but these words that we now use like everything's so dramatic that sometimes I'm like

What if something actually is dramatic? What are the words that you're supposed to use? Well, I remember that growing up that my mom would sometimes tell me, you know, I'd be like, I've literally never been so disgusted in my entire life. And she'd be like, maybe don't say I've literally or, you know, like just try to like bring it down a notch. So that actually when you are upset. Yeah. I'm dead. Deceased. Right. Deceased. Oh, I know that we're talking about MILF, but I do have another word that I love. We're talking about words. Yeah. We're just talking about words. I love gagged. I'm gagged for it.

Oh, I know. Have you heard that? I think I haven't heard that. Oh, yeah. No. Like when you're like gagged for something, it's just like – Oh, I like that. You can't even like speak because I think I'm – Oh, you're just speechless. No, that's fine. Yeah, you're speechless. Yeah, it's like I'm gagged for it. Oh, wow. I like that. I like it too. I like it too. It's fun. Yeah, there's so many – I mean there's – I guess like the hyperbole and thus like not being able to describe things that are actually dramatic but also how –

We all speak in therapy, in like pseudo-therapy speak now. Yeah. I'm so triggered. Yes, right? I'm like, no, you're not. I'm like, don't let me tell you what your trauma is. Yeah, you can be irritated. You don't have to be triggered. And also sometimes it's okay to be triggered by something and like we'll all survive. Exactly. It's character building. You're going to be okay. Exactly. Yeah, there's a really good piece in the New Yorker this week that I was just reading about the term gaslighting. Mm.

And it kind of traces the evolution of how – like that is a useful term to describe a thing. But now that we label literally everything. It's like if someone hurts your feelings, it's like you're gaslighting me. Or someone disagrees with you, you're gaslighting me. It's like that's not actually gaslighting. Yeah. Well, I think the whole like Jonah Hill thing really brought that to light of like weaponizing these therapy words to –

victims really to then make them feel like they're crazy. Because what was the word that they used? Oh, what did he keep saying? It was like... Boundaries. Oh yeah, boundaries. My boundaries are that and just saying whatever you want. Like the most toxic thing. You can never speak to another man. It's like, no, that's not what a boundary is. We could say that's toxicity. We could use that word. Although toxic is one of those words too. Yeah, it's like toxic boundaries. Triggered.

Prama. Bullying. Gaslighting. I know you're not a Bravo girly, but they love to use that on Housewives. It's like, you've been bullying me. And sometimes they're like, we're not bullying you. We're speaking our minds. Yes. And you're on a reality show. Wait, the point is bullying? The point is bullying. You get paid to bully. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. Oh, that's really funny. Oh, that is so fun. And then like disassociating, I feel like I hear that a lot now. Yes. We constantly say that, but like kind of as a joke. We say that our moms disassociate when they listen to this podcast because the things that they hear that they have to. Yeah, you know. Yeah. You do what you gotta do. Yeah, you do. Get through the day. Survive. Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. Who knew that language? What about the dilf? Does that have the same connotation? Okay, great question. So...

I don't think that traditionally it has, but when I had this student start looking into this and she was explaining to me that MILF was being used in this positive way, she also found examples of DILF being used. Similarly, like Harry Styles, he's so DILF.

As a compliment, but not necessarily to an actual dad. Yeah, that's so interesting because Harry Styles would not be someone that I would say, like he doesn't even give. I think our example was actually Timothee Chalamet. Oh, that's even like, because he's a baby to me. Exactly. He's like baby girl, which is another term that people are using now for like for men. Yeah.

I love that because yeah, Dilf to me seems like maybe an offshoot of the like zaddy baby girl. Like there are these new, this new terminology for men that I think is pretty fun. I love baby girl. So I guess for, there are listeners that will have no idea what we're talking about right now, but like,

a man who is, you know, identifying male who is a baby girl is someone who I feel like is like sweet and like kind of like, like Timothée, like Timothée Chalamet. Yeah. Just like very tender. Almost. I would say a sweet baby angel, a sweet baby angel. Would you agree? Cause then is it also used as like a dismissal if you want to be like,

he's baby girl. Like, I guess it depends on what you're into. Yeah. Your type. Yeah. Cause that could be really unattractive to some. I think I baby see it. Like I, my type is not really baby girl, but I think that it's endearing when men are baby girl. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, yeah, I love baby girl in a movie, you know, like I'm like, Oh, I probably wouldn't date you, but like that's sweet. Yeah. It's sweet. Okay. So baby girls like softer.

Softer. Softer. Like a soft boy? Yes. I think that would be like the perfect way that I would describe baby girl. Totally. Yeah. Well, whereas like Zaddy to me or Adolf is like an older guy who's like sexy and like commands a room. A little dirty. Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. It's like sexually charged whereas baby girl feels like pretty innocent. Yeah. But also like could be a good time. Yeah. Like would bring you flowers, you know. We should like start talking about all our sexual fantasies. Yeah.

I love that. Are there other ones that fall into that category? Baby girl, zaddy. It's so interesting. I really had no idea that the kids were saying Delf and Milf for non-parental people. But of course they are. It all comes back. They're keeping us on our toes. It's cyclical. I can't think of any else at the moment. Well, I guess like, I mean, when Barbie came out and they were trying to make...

He's just Ken happened. I mean, I still say like things of like she's everything and he's just Ken. We've said that definitely talking about historical subjects before. Kennergy, just like that little, you know, there's like the TikTok trend of like show your Ken and it would be a boyfriend bringing in your groceries or, you know. Golden Retriever boy.

That's another term. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So if a man is like very happy-go-lucky and like always, you know, always wanting to please you. Yeah. Trying to please you. It's a golden retriever type guy. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

There is like a need or, and maybe it's just playful and fun to categorize everything that we do in our lives now. Totally. It is fun though. It is. It is fun. Like we don't all fit into a box, obviously, but sometimes it's fun to put us in boxes. Exactly. I'm like, go put me in a box. Yeah.

I'm woman enough to say it now. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. But then MILF would be like the mother of all of it. Yeah. MILF is mother? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, what should the title of the episode be? MILF is mother. MILF is mother. MILF is mother. Bringing back the MILF. I don't know. I mean, it is interesting. It's like, is, was MILF,

originally intended to be kind of a dismissal or like is it objectifying and have we now turned it around or whatever the stands online who are using it now into a compliment and is that kind of interesting or do we want to like should MILF just be like a thing of the past in the way that

Masturbating with pies should be, I don't know. God, that's such an interesting question. It's like what we see often in derogatory words, especially for women in the early, you know, 90s and early 2000s that now I think we're like, oh, like you can say, you know, why does cunt have to be a, you know, cunt could be empowering. Like I want to be called a slut, like things that just used to be so weighted and heavy and nasty. Now I think all of us are kind of like, let's,

Let's take back the power on that. Exactly. So like if I had children and I was called a MILF, I'd be happy about it. Yeah. I'd be happy right now if someone called me a MILF. Yeah. Without children. Yeah. I think that's – I think our older listeners might be like shocked to even hear us say the word cunt. But like truly if someone says that you're serving cunt now, it's like that is such a compliment, you know? So I do think it's like – I mean –

What's in a word? Isn't that a phrase? What's in a word? Is that Shakespeare? I don't know. Or what's in a name? What's in a name? Yeah. It's just all very interesting. I guess it just totally depends on where it's coming from. Yeah. I guess on the intent. Yes. Yeah. And like your own, you know, I also have space if a woman is like, I really don't want to be called that. I have a bad, you know, in high school someone called me that and it was really hurtful and I don't want to reclaim that. Then like I also respect that. So I think it's so...

you know, for every individual. Yeah. Which is hard because then it's like, how do we define it like in a community and... Yeah, it's a hard question. Everything goes back to high school. God, doesn't it though? I was just thinking the first time I ever called someone a cunt and it was in high school and I remember... Really? Yeah, I was really mad and I knew I was like, I'm going to use it, not to someone's face. I said it to my mom talking about what a...

Your mom was like, oh my God. I remember she was like, Tess. And I was like, I have to say it because I'm so angry. And I've been saving this in my back pocket. And so I actually have never really had a bad connotation with the word cunt because there was a group of girls in high school that created their names, their group. And they were like, we're this, blah, blah, blah. So my close friends and I were like, all right, we're going to name ours then. We're the army of cunts. So then from then on, yeah, we just like. Right.

We were ahead of the curve. Yeah, we were. I mean, really, though. Truly, I'm sure. I love that. Our parents were shocked and horrified if they ever heard us say that. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Like, what was the question? Yeah.

To start talking about high school trauma. Oh, it all goes back to high school. Yeah, that it does. I mean, we were literally, we just covered Queen Elizabeth I and like it's all just high school stories. Yeah, it really is. I mean, another MILF that this is now reminding me of is, did you all watch Dawson's Creek? Only first season. Yeah, I just saw like clips of it. But people love the mom, right?

Well, the teacher who I guess she didn't have kids, so maybe she wasn't in that way. But there's the famous affair between Pacey, who's Dawson's best friend and Miss Jacobs, a.k.a. Tamara, who's his high school English teacher. And at the time, it's like I mean, this goes to some of we're talking about like it's it's hot. Like you're like rooting. Like I remember being like a sophomore in high school or whatever, being like.

oh yeah, like I hope this goes down with Pacey and Miss Jacobs. Like this is great. Like we were all rooting for them and it was sexy. And in retrospect, rewatching it now, you're like, oh boy, she's 38 and he doesn't even have his driver's license. It's crazy. It's tough too because like in watching that, first of all, Joshua Jackson, I like one of like the all-time, my all-time crushes, just so cute. And then also these actors, like I remember feeling kind of confused sometimes because these actors were like 25 or

or 26. They were so old. I know. I know. Think of Gossip Girl or like One Tree Hill. These were all like adults in their mid-20s and so. That's true. It was genuinely confusing. Yeah. You could just forget. Confusing time for hormones. Totally. All around. I mean, it is just interesting when you get older and you look back and you're like, that was so not chill actually. Yeah, like why was this a storyline? Right? Yes. It's like predatory and abuse. It's totally predatory and I do remember, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be in high school now but at that time I remember my guy friend's

talking about hot teachers or whatever. Like it was like totally chill, whatever. Like, of course they, of course you would want to lose your virginity to your teacher. Like, isn't that so cool? Totally. Whereas of course it would not be that in the reverse if it was a girl talking about. Yeah, that is so true. Like that was certainly predator.

seen as predatory totally and like either way it is well it's harder to watch that on film too when you see an older male teacher with a younger female student you're like i feel gross and then when it is yeah it's then it's the fantasy because it doesn't feel as violent right still terrible i know it's confusing though it is confusing and it is there's just so many things like that that i grew up on we probably all grew up on that you look back on now and you're like

Yeah, what did that actually teach us? Yeah. Oh, my God. I mean, the list is – it's a dark list of what it taught us. And it's not always bad necessarily. No. But, like, these things kind of stick with you that you ingest in your teenage years. Totally. I think this is why it's, like, so important for – to have podcasts, like, in retrospect. And we try to do this at RAM here, too, of just, like, yeah, let's, like, look back at the history, especially, you know, through a female lens, too, and then reexamine it a little bit, you know? Oh, yes.

I don't know. I'm just thinking of all the things that TV taught me growing up, but I just went to a different place. Totally. But, you know, it was just so powerful. That's like what you lived for, of watching these like romances and hot actors and actresses. I know. Okay, so probably you didn't watch My So-Called Life. Yes, I did. Oh, you did? Okay. Yes. Loved. There was like a funny meme going around recently that maybe you saw that was like,

you know, Jordan Catalano walking up to Angela in the hallway. And it's like, P.O.V., where did I learn that like emotionally unavailable and cagey men are like my dream guy or whatever? It's like, oh, yeah. Ding, ding, ding. That's what I was literally just thinking about of like how to chase the guy that's not into you. You know, this it's like, did you watch Gilmore Girls?

Yes. Yes. You know, Jess is like totally just treats her like shit. I was just watching it last year and I was like, Jess used to be my all time. Like if I could date anyone, it would, it would be just Mariano. And now I'm just like, he doesn't call her back. He cancels plans. He goes to her awful. And you just think that that's so sexy growing up and it really does give you, I feel the same way about big and sex in the city that I'm like, ew, this man is so gross. Like why is he the one, you know, like he's the,

It's the dark tortured man that you're just like, I'm going to fix him. Yeah. I'm going to save him. It's so funny. We all struggle with that. I do have to wonder, like if you're, if you're younger and you're consuming a different kind of content now, like I'm trying to think of what the example now would be, but like, do you not learn that that is the ideal? Are there any like standout dilfs in media to you guys, like on TV shows and movies? And obviously, you know, in the song, Stacy's mom was a major MILF character or MILF or dilfs. Um,

I know. Who are like the hot dads? I mean, like this is our brand. We should know this. Doesn't it? Yeah. We do like an older man. We really do. We're going to listen back later and be like, come on.

Come on. Yes. I know. We're going to list off like a hundred different men. I know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he wasn't a dad, but like John Stamos on Full House, I remember watching that when I was younger. I was like, Uncle Jesse. I guess he did end up being a dad and be like, hubba hubba. Oh, yeah. It's going to make me think about like language and words and everything so much more now. I know. Now we have to come up with a citation of who New York Times. I mean, you're like our cool older sister, I feel. That's what I'm literally thinking.

Oh, I mean, that's like so flattering for New York Times. I feel like most people think it's like their stodgy old grandpa. No, no, no, no. Well, we just said that Time Magazine was our grandpa. We picture him like the grandpa from Parent Trap, the Lindsay Lohan version. So I think New York Times is our cool...

older sister who else have you done this is so fun I'll have to Rolling Stone is our cool uncle who's like a little weird but we're like oh we love him just the same always playing the electric guitar um Elle.com is like like a fake auntie but like your mom's best friend from college who like lives abroad and comes back a few times a year and like gives you all these like rich face creams PBS is our nana

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're just we're adding them on. Yeah. But New York Times, cool older sister. She's traveled the world. Yes. She's so smart that sometimes like you're a little intimidated, but then you sit down with her and you're like, God, she's just fun to like. Definitely. Talk shit. So flattering. I'm going to tell my colleague, my editor. Oh, my God. Please do. Please do. I don't know.

This has been so fun. I mean, I've just had like, I had no idea what we would end up discovering and look at us. Yeah. What a treat. It was such a treat. We can talk about baby girl. Exactly. But you just never know when a baby girl. You never do. Pops up into the conversation. It would be fun to do a language column. I used to have an actual language column and I don't anymore because I'm doing more editing.

But where I would just take whatever the like internet phrase was or communication device and go deep on it. And I always thought it was so fun to look at baby girl and like this – yeah, just the terminology that we're using for men now. Sorry. I do have one more with a male. What? A short king. Short king. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good job, Claire. Thank you. We use that often. We're missing –

one yeah there's actually a lot and they all have like slight like i love that they're there's real nuance here yes totally different connotations they mean different things yes but how nice for like short men all over the world that they got that you know to kind of be like yeah you're short but like you're hot still yeah exactly yeah because men need so much help in that department yeah we just we need to make sure that they're okay at all times

Jessica, this has been so fun. We do have to ask you our final question. Oh, yeah. Okay. I've thought of my answer. If you could smoke a joint with one person dead or alive, who would it be? I think it would be Jennifer Coolidge after all this discussion. We love a full circle answer. Wouldn't she be so fun? Yes. She'd be the best. She would drop some knowledge on you. Oh, my God. Holy shit. She'd be like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. She'll just keep saying that over and over. It would be so good. Also, I loved that you were like,

But if you would feel more comfortable, you could say your best drink, your favorite drink. Did people actually make you do that? No, no, no one's ever done that to us. I mean, it's California. I know. Yeah. We never, I mean, like to us, it's like breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yeah, exactly. To some people, not so much. Yeah. You just never know. You just never know. We just want to make people feel comfortable. I got it. I appreciate that. Beautiful. Where can people find you? What are you working on? What do you want to promote? Um,

Well, you can find us anywhere you get podcasts in retrospect. You can find me on Instagram at Jessica Bennett. What else? There's too many things to name. I'm on Substack. JessicaBennett.Substack.com. I'm in the New York Times. I don't know. I have a couple of doppelgangers who write for different publications. Sometimes I get myths.

about who's who, you know, I'm around. She's everywhere. She's everywhere. And we are just so honored that you came on. And I'm sure our listeners will in the future, hopefully we can do another episode where we can dissect another word or something. Thank you so much for having me.

Of course. And then all of your information will be in our show notes. As well, if you are new here from In Retrospect, you can follow us on Instagram and TikTok at WriteAnswersMostly. You can subscribe to our premium subscription, which is in the show notes, and you get two bonus episodes a month. And thank you guys for listening. Yes. And we'll see you next week. Yes, see you next week, Rami. Thank you, Jessica. Thanks, Jessica. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.