The Ultimate Cool Girl: Kate Moss, with guest Genevieve Angelson
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Rammies, we have a very exciting guest today. It is our friend Genevieve Angelson. She will be ending this month of fashion and there is no better person to do it. She is our friend. She is a Broadway television and film actress. You might recognize her from one of her many roles, most recently as supervillain Alanis Wheeler on The Handmaid's Tale. She is also a

Good God, that was terrifying. Perhaps as one of her clowns on Apple TV's The After Party or Netflix's New Amsterdam. She played the iconic Patty Robinson on cult favorite Good Girls Revolt, which was on Amazon. Be sure to check that out. It's absolutely gorgeous. And she's also a writer who frequently contributes to Town & Country magazine, as well as Refinery29 and Elle. And in her spare time, she holds space for her clients as a somatic healer. Please enjoy the episode today. She is also...

Quoted as having said, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels, which she did have to speak to many times in the press. And I would just like to say, bitch, what are you talking about? Welcome back, Rammies. Hello, Rammies. It's not just the two of us here today. No, it's not, Claire. We've got a very special guest. It's been such a long time coming. Reveal yourself. Hi, my name is Genevieve Angelson. We've got her.

Screaming, crying, throwing up. I'm a Rammy. I'm a Lammy. I'm a Patreon. My dog is family. I'm family. It's not a competition, but I've known Claire for even longer than Tessa. I do that. That is true. It's true. I knew that it had to be discussed. Longer than Corey. My boyfriend has known me. Longer than Corey. I mean, you're one of my oldest friends in LA. Yeah. I would say like first friends. Exactly. What year did you guys meet? 20... A decade ago? Yeah, I think 2013 or 2014. Oh.

You were living in that one apartment like in West Hollywood before the one that you're in now. I remember picking you up from that. Wait, with a fella? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Who was it? Reveal who he was. Someone who's now happily married with a child. Hey, we love that. We love that for them. And Genevieve is also the mother, as she said, of Jack Lemmon. You guys have heard him on the pod before. Wait, this isn't a

isn't about me. I have been waiting for this day for so I've heard every episode I've zoomed into the zoom trivia nights. I mean, sweet angel again. My goal is that anyone who is coming to this podcast for the first day because of

me is like that they don't understand a word that this has to come with a glossary where like I have to explain if I refer to my Bitcoin baby it is because I am talking about someone's boyfriend thank you you know everyone is stunning and she's good she's research focused she's done the work she's done the work I want this to be like hieroglyph

And we are just so happy you are here because of Genevieve. You're a fan of hers just like we are. We really are. From the beginning. We've been trying to do this for some time. We have always wanted you on the pod. Seriously. You've been very flexible. You've been very forgiving. There's been rupture and repair. But everything happens for a reason. And I think this topic, it was supposed to come in the way it did. I agree. Because you are fashion girly. You are fashion.

She's a New York icon. Um, I'm so sorry. I forgot something that was such a big reaction. I was going to bring, and I will still post it.

the Vogue that I have from what I don't, it's not only Vogue, the September issue of Vogue, Genevieve has the most gorgeous article about her and I still have it. It's one of my prized possessions. It's in my box of like, it's in the box with like my social security card and my passport. I remember getting it at the newsstand. And if you ever need to get it,

out of jail. That is it. And you were recently in Vogue again. You are just a Vogue girly. You are. Do you know what I was thinking? I was thinking, um, if they don't find at least one way to connect me and my subject today, I am going to storm out. Well, hey, that was your work, so we've already connected. It's Vogue. Um, she's, she's Vogue. I mean, you've just, you are...

I think, I think of you as just someone that is very fashionable, someone that takes risks. Like I, whenever I see you in something, I'm like, I haven't seen that before. I don't see a lot of people wearing it. Like, I think your fashion sense is very unique, very elegant. It's just so, so flattering. Thank you so much.

How did she find that? Literally. It's so funny that you say that. That is actually always my goal. Whenever I'm talking to like a glam team or whatever, I just, I always, I just want to reveal that my subject is Kate Moss for anyone who hasn't heard it. Of course. Well, what's interesting, and I am going to bring it back to her, but where this started was Tess and Claire are doing a podcast about really all subjects in all of history for all of time. And I thought,

what matters and what I came up with was Kate Moss. It did start with Joan of Arc and I thought no, not influential enough.

We all had that moment. No, not enough. Please. Not Joan of Arc. Joan who? We need to aim higher. Who's Arc? Who's Arc? We need a catwalk. We need the glam. Exactly. But, I mean, look, when we talk about Kate Moss, I think it's impossible to separate her from grunge, really. And any time that I'm putting together a look, my theme is always like, I just don't want to be pretty. I don't want to be pretty. It's never been my...

It's never been my thing, and I really think I have her to thank for that. Yeah, but you do manage to still be gorgeous. I mean, truly. How would you describe your personal style? I'm just a haggard socialite. I'm not the one who said it. Who was on Handmaid's Tale once. Yeah.

When you were wearing your coat from Handmaid's Tale the other day over here, everyone was like, this coat's gorgeous. This coat is like 85 bucks. Oh, really? Did you have to ask to keep it or did you steal it? I had to tell them I was going to buy it from a website. This is perfect. Yeah, exactly. Perfect. You can't actually walk away with that much free stuff from set. I mean, they really have to keep it all for...

Well, do they like go through inventory and then charge people? It's more like they collect your costume at the end of the day. And if it's not there, they call you and they're not bringing it back. Also, it's for reshoots. It's for... Right. Of course. Um...

I don't know. Yeah? I think actors are just grubby. What character have you played that's your favorite fashion? Oh, Patty. I'm just going to say. If you guys haven't seen Good Girls Revolt, it is phenomenal. Iconic. You were born to play Patty. Patty was born to play you. I was listening to your most recent episode. I'm sorry, not most recent, the one before the White Party.

corsets. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. When you were talking about your personal style. I started thinking about mine and I started thinking even separate from Patti, people have always sort of wanted to put me in 1960s things. I do kind of want to go out on a ledge and say it is tired.

I think the 60s are tired. I will never think they're tired. I don't want to wear them anymore. Well, you might feel tired because you were in the 60s. Have you ever seen the picture of the girl at the Rolling Stones concert? Okay. That it is Genevieve. I know that's tired for you. No. The other day we were on a group chat talking about what decade we would all, it was Alice, us, and our friend Hannah, like what decade we would all be in fashion. And I was looking up 1960s because like Claire's very 60s to me.

And I saw that photo of you when you type in 1960. That's not really of Genevieve. We will post it. It's not, but it is crazy. She looks identical to you. I know, I tried to find her. Should you be her for Halloween or something? Oh my God. You have to be her at some point, Genevieve. I'll do it. I guess if you're tired of it, you know, we won't put that on you. Not tired of it. No, that is actually the most flattering comparison. Nobody has any idea what you're talking about right now. We will post a picture. We will do some social media. But I get it. I mean, Daisy Jones and the Six just came out. And did you watch that?

No. You don't need to. It's okay. But I think that, you know, the 60s, the 70s, people are... It's trendy right now. And it always is, kind of. It befalls me a lot and I'm flattered, but I recently thought I'm over it. Yeah. And I don't mean to say that I'm over Good Girls Revolt. Or am I over This Is Us? No, no. Of course. Of course. I hear that. Perhaps the 80s next. I mean, I think 90s. 90s. Perhaps. Okay. Perhaps our, quote...

beautiful slacker icon as she was coined in Spin Magazine. Beautiful slacker. The beautiful slacker icon. Wow. I like that. I feel she's quite Gen Z. Oh. There is an effortlessness to her, a refusal to care that in fact I think it feels quite echoed in this moment. I agree. Man, I was looking at TikToks of her last night speaking of Gen Z and what a gorgeous woman. Yeah.

Okay, so here's what I wanted to tell you off air that I promised I was not going to burn. Okay. Okay. We have mutual friends. Who? We share. I can't tell you because I've spoken to them and I've gotten some local callers. Oh, shit. We have boots on the ground. I know I've got boots on the ground. My God. Okay, so you have mutual friends and not only that, speaking of calling back and then we can get into Kate Moss, you have met Andre Leon Talley. Oh, that's correct.

And I would like for you just to like share, because I actually told the story on the Andre episode and I edited it out because I was like, I'd rather have Genevieve. It's not a great story. It is. But I have met, and I did once meet the beloved Andre Leon Talley. He threw a party for...

one of my ex lovers who wrote the book Fifth Avenue 5 a.m. which was about Audrey Hepburn and the Little Black Dress and Breakfast at Tiffany's and he threw a book party for this book and so I went and all I can say is that being in his presence was like

Being in the presence of Mother Goose in her roost if Mother Goose was in fact a French king. That is like the only way to describe him. That is the best description I've ever heard. God. Anyone say that? Anyone. Seriously. Wow. I mean, there's no great like anecdote from having met him. Was he wearing a cape? In fact, red. Naturally. Gorgeous. Naturally. Stop. She's done it all, folks. She has. Well, Genevieve...

We will let you take it away. Yes, we will. Kate Moss. Kate Moss. Truly a feminist icon.

I'm ready. No, in fact, I have to sort of come out of the gate by saying the following. What these two women do is so difficult. I'm talking about Tess and Claire. Oh. First of all, this took me a long time. It took me a long time to do research on a woman who's not even yet 50 years old. Okay. And frankly, like, has barely done an interview and not necessarily.

necessarily accomplished all that much and it still took me a very long time. It gets easier the more that you do it. You mean you do less work? Yeah, well probably. And also like I know how you are and you're just like an overachieving student. It's true. But you know the other thing is I feel...

I really do feel like deeply the spirit of agape and I love everyone and I really feel like oh my gosh the enormous burden of of representing her and her whole personhood based on like the you know little glimpses of herself that have been covered in the press and like people are people everyone's doing their best she was raised by wolves and she's a miracle and I just really want that to come across and that's how we feel about most people that we do

you know research that we're just like oh we hope we do them justice and I think as we have gotten more comfortable with it we realize that what even a little slice of what we talk about in terms of their life is doing them justice because we're having a conversation so like exactly so so shall we start yeah do it Kate Moss uh-huh why do we care why was she such a big deal what is the thing about Kate Moss well let's put her in context okay

Other models at the time when she was coming up had been Christy Turlington, Linda Evangelista, these glamorous Amazonian women. And then you have Kate Moss, who is 5'7". She's 5'7"? She's 5'7".

crooked teeth, crooked legs, some people would even say. And she's, this is a woman who is famous for being in jeans and a ponytail, even if she's at a club on Portobello Road and dating chaotic drug addicts. She's sex, she's drugs, she's rock and roll, she's starving. Who is she? Who is she? Who is she? Um,

Um, you know, the other thing about her is that she really came up in the time of Cool Britannia. So this was like when there is the Spice Girls, there's Oasis, there's like, uh, Tony Blair, who is like much more liberal. Um, gosh, what is it? Prime Minister has like overcome in a landslide John Major. So there's this huge, like,

youth and revolt kind of moment in the UK and it's having like a very global moment and so she's sort of like the female ambassador of that time okay so she's after Chrissy Turlington yeah for some reason I put them at the same talk about a beautiful face my god literally well it's really just the kind of beauty right I mean so Kate Moss is this beauty that's just completely without

artifice. She's without wearing, you know, high heels and suits and collagen and Silicon and like wearing a ton of makeup. She's unwashed hair. She's Adidas sneakers. She, so cool. She sort of like presents this version of reality that sees, uh,

beauty as something deeper than covering up your flaws right she's actually like revealing this kind of nakedness and innocence um that also comes with the coining the term heroin chic and yeah right right yeah we're gonna yeah it's her essence and that is beauty is like she's so cool what you exude um so yeah I mean but here's the thing it's not like I mean look we talk about K Moss we think

She's really fucking skinny. Yes. And we can get into that. But it's not like being skinny and being wayfish is so new. Mm-hmm. We know from the last episode about the corset. Right. We've been doing this for a long time. We sure have, kids. You know, you go back to, like, flappers you have being wayfish and flat-chested being a thing. Even Twiggy in the 60s. I really think the thing about Kate Moss that distinguishes her is...

this grunge thing. It is this 90s, like, kind of ugly, not giving a fuck, not washing your hair. Yep. Always has a cigarette in your hand. Always has a cigarette. For sure. So one of our multiple that is more than one mutual friends would say...

I'm going to save anything disparaging for off the air because it's just, it's really neither here nor there. But this friend would say she was so beautiful in person. You could be in a massively crowded room and your eyes would just blink

go to her. There was something about the symmetry of her features. She's completely magnetic. She's clever. She's bitchy. She's absolutely stunning. But there was a reason that she was so famous, which is this, that your eyeballs ate her up. And this is a friend of mine who herself

It's famous. And met tons of famous people. And she said nobody else would burn their image in your brain the way that she would. What she was wearing, how she was standing, how she was flipping her hair, how she was laughing. She made the most memorable impression. Imagine being described like that. I cannot. That would never happen. Never. Not in a, like, you know, self-deprecating way. It did happen. It might be Kate Moss. I mean, goddamn. She's a big deal. People can't even tell Tess and I apart. No.

I don't know. Hold on. For the listeners, they are in fact wearing both of them a black sweater and jeans right now. It's looking pretty similar. You have the same length hair. You have the same face. But I will say, watching those TikToks, I agree. Just like, you're captivated by her. It's the original, not the original, one of the original cool girls. Yeah. Of like that cigarette cool girl. Yes, and to this day, I think still does smoke cigarettes and frankly... Iconic. I support it. How does her skin look so good? I don't know.

I mean, money. Yeah, that's true. And jeans. Money. Yeah. Money and jeans. Money can't buy you class, but it can buy you good skin. Wow. There it is, Claire. Ready? Ready. Okay. Let's hydrate. Let's jump in. Okay. Okay.

I'm joining you. Kate Moss, born January 16th, 1974. Capricorn Queen. Capricorn Energy, which doesn't surprise me, actually. Working, working, working. There's like a productivity, a dryness. You're old when you're young. You get younger over the course of your life. In fact, I'm such a thorough Ramy that I also have had my own private session with Morris Brown. Yes, that's right. Didn't we check out our astrology episode? This is already making no sense to nobody. Exactly.

So you guys better go through the catalog right now. You start from the beginning. That's right. Hermodas and Scorpio. Oh. Tracks. Okay. I don't know what her rising is. I think someone said that she was a rising Leo. Okay, I could see that. I mean... Scorpio in her chart also really checks out to me. Yeah. So she's from a place called Croydon, and I did do my research among my British friends. Croydon, I said...

Color me Croydon. Croydon is the kind of suburban town where the main thing going on is the mall, and the mall is not that nice. So I'm seeing Dazed and Confused. I'm seeing... You know what I mean? So she doesn't come from, like, a quality... No, no, no, no, no. Oh, that actually kind of...

That shocks me. I thought the going was so white. No, no, no, no. No, we're going to need to adjust that image completely. Okay. Humble beginnings. Well, this is why we do Ram, you know? Exactly. Mother, barmaid. Father, flight attendant. Really? She said, as a child, for a second I was into a doll, but not for long. I was more into fighting with my brother Nick. Not really playing. I used to pin him down and spit in his face. I was disgusting. Okay.

Just all already, I'm like, yeah, that is who you are. Of course, 100%. Yeah. She went to a pretty tough school. She says she promptly learned the rules of fitting in. I was a sprinter and I played goal attack and netball up until I started smoking and I started being naughty. I started to get my period every week. It seemed anything to get out of any physical activity. It was just not cool in school to do gym. Well, we've all been there. Yeah, we have too. But also, I'm just like, God, everything.

I'm like, I want to be like her. And I'm like, how are you born that cool? No, we really need to readjust of her being any kind of a nepo baby. She was definitely like, she's blue collar. She's scrappy. It even makes more sense, you know, that she's like beating up kids in the locker and being like, go fuck yourself. I'm not going to run. Now you've got it. She worked in retail. She was a child of divorce at 13. And she,

She says, literally, my parents would let us do whatever we wanted. I was smoking when I was 13 in front of my parents and drinking. And I'd have parties where I'd come home at 3 o'clock in the morning just because someone threw me out then. She says it actually worked out to my benefit because you end up thinking for yourself rather than knowing you're rebelling against something. Sure, but that's also tough.

Yeah, no, this is not... This is trauma. Yeah, like, let's call it trauma. Let's call it trauma. Do you think she was a lonely child? I think she had a lot of friends. I don't think she had a lot of supervision. Right. Kids, like, do need boundaries. Kids need structure. They do. Anyway, so her parents get divorced.

and she's discovered by a modeling agent at JFK airport returning from a family trip to the Bahamas on which she later goes on to say in her biography she did lose her virginity which feels like a gossipy thing to share but it also does feel relevant to say even before she's hit a world stage she's had you know really lost her virginity to that man

Sorry? To that man she lost her virginity? The scout? Oh, no, no, no, no. This is just the age at which he's getting discovered. She's like, you know, over-sexualized already. Already. And just, I mean, also to be discovered at an airport. Wow. Like, I thought that didn't happen. Imagine how you all look, like how we all look at an airport. Disgusting. And how many people are at an airport. That literally... This part is amazing.

the agent sees her at an airport and then finally approaches her on the plane and Kate says her internal reaction was, "All right, you freak." She is cool. She is cool. You freak. Okay, you know, she just says, "If it hadn't happened, I don't know what would have happened to me. I'd just be working in a bar in Croydon, probably." But like, probably. Yeah. I know, it's like one moment. Yeah. Changes everything. This is 1988. Okay. How old is she here? Okay, 1988, she's 14. Okay, wow, she's young.

She's very young. So how did she hit? So basically, Calvin Klein had been looking for someone who was going to resemble this diminutive French model and singer Vanessa Paradis. Paradis. Oh, do you know her? I do. Do you? I'm just like a French girly. Well, apparently. Not at all. I don't know why actually I do know her. I can pick.

picture her face. I'll tell you why you know her. She's Johnny Depp's baby mama. Oh, she is stunning. She looks just like Kate Moss. So when she drops out of this campaign, Kate Moss is agent, sends in Kate Moss, and the rest is history. Wow. Interesting. And then Lily Rose Depp looks just like her mom. I truly identical. Copy and paste.

Her mom is not Kate Moss. We're just being clear. Right. No, Lily Rose was just like Vanessa. That's right. So that's 1992. So she is just 18. Yeah.

And she lands her first major contract with Calvin Klein. And this is the contract in which she's photographed with Marky Mark. Mark Wahlberg. Oh my God. And this campaign. That's right. This is when Calvin Klein was so sexual. Oh, well, so it sounds very glamorous, right? But also she describes the sort of early days of modeling as being like,

I mean, she famously collaborated with this British photographer, Corinne Day, who's also one of her best friends and helped define her career. But she said that behind the scenes, it was really difficult and painful that like while shooting this seminal,

campaign with Mark Wahlberg. She said she felt vulnerable. She felt scared. She said photographers pressured her to show more skin than she was comfortable with. She had to be shot topless. She didn't want to be. Current day pushes her to like snort like a pig. She said she cried a lot. She cried a lot. She said he didn't want to take my top off. I felt really, really self-conscious about my body. But people would say, if you don't take your top off, I'm not going to book you for L. And at

At the same time, these are her best friends and these are the people who are giving her this legendary, I mean, don't forget where she comes from experience. So it's confusing. Also, Calvin Klein was so hot, but have you seen the Brooke Shields documentary?

No. They talk about because she does a Calvin Klein commercial when she's like a teenager and it's all very sexualized. Oh, I'm so sorry for glamorizing. No, but it is hot. Both of these things can't be true. And so was this just she was just doing Calvin Klein at this point? No, she's also let's see. She's also

Calvin Klein is really like what put her on the map, but this is also when she's doing, um, Mark Jacobs grunge collection for Perry Ellis. Um, she signs multiple big contracts there. Yeah. This is when she inked her three or six figure contract with Klein, but there's a ton of other stuff going on. These photos are so hot.

Like, her face is just amazing. She does look, like, young, though, you know? Like, when you look back, you're like, that's a teenager. Right. Yeah, she's this combination of, like, sex and innocence, right? Which, everyone, you know, we still do. Yeah. We promote that. So, we do have to talk a little bit about the body thing because, and, you know, it's just, it's a...

it's just a thing. She's tiny. Yes. She's tiny. And, and it's sort of documented over and over again, exactly what her stats are. So sick that people even put the stats on there. I know, but it's like, well, I mean, I think it's like when you're a model, your body is small.

But like, again, to have it just like shoved in everyone's face and like, yeah, your body is like your job as a model, but it's also not everyone's business to know the details of it. I think. And it's like, you have to imagine it's self-reported though. Right. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think also that's just the nineties and that's a time where like people just absolutely didn't have...

the boundaries. And people were fascinated by it. Like every magazine was like, what size is this woman? What jean size do you think she wears? It was like we were very consumed by the numbers. Very consumed by it. But I mean, so she's a part of this like infamous 90s fashion trend called heroin chic, which is like

Pale skin, dark circles, emaciation. I mean, she claims that she's never done heroin, and I believe her. But she's very, she's claiming she's very into coke, though, right? Well, that comes later. So, no heroin, but, like, she may be a little, uh...

She said she's like very open, like I might be heroin chic, but I've never done heroin. Do you know who came up with the term heroin chic? Like where that really, was it a magazine? I don't either. But like men were participating in this too. Like that's very Johnny Depp and...

Absolutely. The darkness. Yeah, the darkness. She, yes, she claims, so basically she says that she feels she became the scapegoat for a lot of people's problems. She said, I was never anorexic. She repeats this over and over again. I never have been. I've never

taken heroin. She claims, "I was thin because I didn't get fed at photo shoots or in shows." Okay, well, I don't know if that sounds like the healthiest relationship to food and body. Also, I eat when I decide to put food in my mouth. Yeah, you could maybe be like, "Hey, does anyone mind going to grab me a sandwich?" A chicken salad, even. Exactly.

really whatever you need. You're the star of the show. She said I was thin. That's because I was doing shows. I was working really hard. You know, at that time I was staying at this bed and breakfast in Milan and you'd get home from work and there was no food. You'd get to work in the morning. There was no food. Oh. Nobody took you out to lunch when I started. We've heard this before. Right. And it's like,

sad. I also think it's worth mentioning that it's a very different time where like, I don't think eating disorders were discussed in the way that they are now too. Yeah. No, no. So isn't it interesting that you've had so many eating disorders come up this month in fashion month? Well, that's true to form. It's a tough industry. Yeah, it really is. She is also quoted as having said, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels, which she did have to speak to many times in the press. And I would just like to say,

bitch, what are you talking about? Like, I mean, tons of things that taste as good as skinny fuel. I mean, truly, like, are you,

Are you all right? Yeah, no. What's interesting is, what's that procedure now? Buccal fat. Is it buccal fat? I think it's buccal fat for your cheeks. So that was a thing that started happening because of her. In fact, in the 90s, one plastic surgeon said that he, let's see. Oh, he had a New York private practice. He was greeting hundreds of patients with pictures of her who were all in search of this hollowed out look. Oh my gosh. We're safe.

she's the poster child of ectomorphs he would say he would say we're not making waifs we're making them more way fish but he would remove cheek fat um or quote the waif face procedure in order to make people look more like kate moss oh my god and this is in the 90s and that is i mean isn't that what the thing is that yeah is that what they're doing now it's back well it's just like so crazy what we put our bodies through for trends

No kidding. She, though, would never have done such a thing. I mean, she would sort of say, she was friends with the editorial director of Interview, and she would come out of these Calvin Klein meetings saying, do you think I should fix my teeth? But she never fixed anything. She's... Thank God. How fucked up were her teeth? I can't even like... I mean, you know. Just like a little crooked? But she's British. She's British.

Do British people not get braces? Have we talked about this before? Like, why is that a thing that British people have crooked teeth? I don't know. You lived in. I did. But I left when I was 10. So it was sort of like pre-orthodonture. Right when you were, like, you could get, yeah, braces. I want to move to New York City where you got braces just for hammock teeth. Yeah, exactly. They're not crazy at all. Oh, they're not bad at all. But also, like, thank God because the veneers that are happening these days are just wild. Like, she would look crazy with veneers. It's like, thank God you've never done anything. Exactly.

- Exactly. - Okay, yeah, not as bad as I thought. - No. - So, I mean, that's sort of really, that's really all there is to say about the skinny thing. She often gets questioned about it. She always says I was never anorexic, whatever. But she is in fact a party girl. - Oh yeah. - This we know, we love to hear about. - We do. - Basically, she has a friend who's quoted as saying like, if Kate calls or says like, meet me here or whatever, I'm doing this or I'm doing that, you just know you're not going to bed at midnight.

So basically saying we're on uppers. It's going to be a good 4 o'clock in the morning at midnight. I got it. I'm like, midnight, please. How can you? Well, we know how you can. I mean, I think it's part of our attraction to her is obviously there are plenty of good models and there are plenty of beautiful people, but it is obviously who she is

that has been so compelling. And part of it is that like, she really hasn't done any interviews. Like a lot of these interviews are all repeating the same thing she said when she was 19 or things that she later said in her biography, like five years ago. But in the meantime, what we have is this image of this like incredibly mysterious woman who has dated a lot of rock stars and like is living this kind of Sid and Nancy life a lot of the time, which I'll get to, but she's in a relationship with,

From 1994 to 1998 with Johnny Depp. That was like right with the Wynonna Ryder, like right after. No, right after. He dated her after. Oh, okay. Right after, yeah. So she's 20, he's 31 when they start dating. That checks out, I feel like. We're not surprised. It sure does, sure does. But anyway, this is why it was relevant that he later married and had a child with the same woman that you replaced in the Calvin Klein ad. Yes, that's so crazy. Calvin and Johnny have a type.

No kidding. Were they like public in their relationship? Like did they do red carpets together? They did all of that. 40 years is a long time in Hollywood too. So I don't know. It was interesting. She's quoted at the beginning as I find this so relatable. She says the most embarrassing moment of my life.

Of my life is when I did the Isaac Mizrahi show in LA and Johnny was there and it's like they'd just gotten together and it was the first time he'd ever seen a show. And she said, I was like, please don't come. It was fun. But just knowing he was out there and caring about what he thought about my job. And she's Kate Moss. She's so nervous. But that's such a relatable feeling. It's so relatable. It doesn't matter who you are. Oh my God. I relate to that.

to let you start dating someone and you like think you're hot shit and then all of a sudden you have a crush on someone and you're like oh my god don't look oh my god and you're like whatever i'm doing you're gonna think it's stupid right no and am i pretty i mean literally even though you're like a fashion supermodel walking on the runway right please look at this photo of them together my god talk about the cheekbones yeah johnny depp has buckle fat removal i mean like maybe he does do you do you think they had a good relationship

Well, here's what I know. First of all, just a little weird anecdote. For his 31st birthday gift, she gave him a platinum rattle ring filled with black pearls. That is so, like, so them. We're rock and roll. It's very, like, Megan Fox, MG, what's his fucking name? MGK. MGK vibes. Yeah. Angelina and Billie. I know, there's no blood, and yet I do feel vampiric about it. Oh, of course. It's the vibe. Goth baby. Big goth babies. God.

So, yeah, I mean, look, we're talking about Johnny Depp. There is multiple incidents in which, like, at 5.30 a.m., he gets arrested for criminal mischief at the Mark Hotel in New York City because he's trashed his hotel room. And they find them both in, like, a state of intoxication. And there's $12,000 of, like, damage to the hotel. And there are multiple instances of that. But...

Wow. They are rock and roll. Where it comes to is basically they both have these kind of parting messages in the press where in 1998, Deb says to Hello Magazine, I've never gotten that emotional over a woman before. I've been so stupid because we had so much going for our relationship and I'm the one who has to take responsibility for what happened. I was difficult to get on with. I let my work get in the way and I didn't give her the attention I should have done.

He said that in 98? He said that in 1998. So he used to, you know, kind of look more within, I think. Wow. Well, you know that she recently, in the Amber Heard case, testified for him. That's right. She came out in the Amber Heard case because there was some other incident where there had been allegations about Depp, like,

While on vacation in Jamaica. And she just was like, it was rainy. I fell down. He came to help me. And then she went to like one of his rock concerts after the trial to like show up in solidarity. So, and I have my thoughts on that. I mean, I do too. That could be a whole nother story. It certainly could be, but from their feeling bodies, like they're,

To me, it is yet unclear why they never ended up together because he went on to say, like, this whole thing is crazy. I never should have gotten so worked up about what people had to say about my work. When I got home, like, I should have left my work at home. And she basically had to deal with all of that. I was horrific to live with. I'm a total moron at times. And Ma said as recently as 2012 that she cried for years after they broke up.

There's nobody that's really been able to take care of me. Johnny did that for a while. I believed what he said. Like if I said, what do I do? He'd tell me. And that's what I missed when I left. I lost that gauge of somebody I could trust. Oh boy. He was a father figure. Oh, father figure. Oh, that he said he was a father figure. But think about it. She, I mean, but really raised by wolves. And she was 20 and he was 31. I think also he's the person who she could actually trust was like,

much more famous than she was and was actually going to tell her how to be safe in fame. Like he was the one who said, uh, never complain, never explain, never talk to the paparazzi because you're never going to be able to control the narrative and they're going to print whatever they want. Is that what she says? Never complain, never explain or something. Does she, is that a quote from her too? It's a,

I think it's a common. Oh, I don't know. I don't actually know that I've been coined. I just saw an interview with Cara Delevingne and her and Kate Moss looks so annoyed by Cara Delevingne. But she was like, you have this quote to Kate Moss or something like that. Oh, maybe she did coin it. I've never heard this quote in my life. Never complain, never explain. I was like, oh, we're cycling to the plane. I will explain, but I will complain. Same. Yeah. Guys, I'm drinking at three o'clock in the afternoon. Buckets are right in front of me. I don't drink ever. It's four, Genevieve. It's four. It's four.

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big famous love affair that she has. She has a bunch. First of all, in 2000, so that takes us to 1998. In 2002, she has a daughter with, um,

Jefferson Hack, who is a publisher. Her daughter is born in 2002. Her daughter is Lila Grace Moss. She's also a model. Of course. Because her mother started a modeling agency inside her. Kate Moss started a modeling agency? That shocks me. I think she wouldn't want her daughter to be in the world, kind of.

You know? Like, I bet she'd be like, oh, fuck that. I had to do that. You think that Kate Moss is not, like, an amazing parent? I'm not real clear on that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think she is...

Listen. Hey, she's doing the best she can, like all moms are. She can only teach what you know. Yeah. But, like, I can't believe she was born in 2002 because I can't believe anyone was born in 2002. But also, like, she's starting to really work a lot. Is she? Because I was just thinking, oh, she's actually not as famous as Johnny Depp's daughter. Well, no, she's definitely not as famous as her. But I think Kate Moss and her are starting to make more appearances together to rise her star. Like at the Met. Like at the Met. Like at the Met. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Well, anyway, there was sort of...

I think that Jefferson Hack has sort of stayed in Kate Moss' life as like a very grounding presence. Who is that? He's a publisher, and I think he edited Dazed and Confused, not like as a movie, but as a, is there like a Dazed and Confused magazine or periodical or something? Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I mean, it's a great name. Take advantage of that. It is. Make it a, you know. Anyway, Kate was like always the party girl, and he was the one who was like staying home and grounding their jobs. Wow.

I hope so. Wow. Um, anyway. Was it, was she living in New York? Like raising her daughter in New York? I don't know. Or do you think she was? Oh, she's still in London for some reason. I think her daughter does have a British accent. Got it. For some reason I, I thought she, I could, I mean, she probably traveled the world. That is true.

Well, anyway, Kate gets into a relationship with a man named Pete Doherty. Pete Doherty is in a band called the Libertines and then becomes the frontman, maybe only man, of a band called Baby Shambles. Oh.

This is her real Sid and Nancy moment. And I remember this. This is the moment in which Kate Moss starts being followed with as much intensity and as much danger by the paparazzi as Princess Diana. Oh, shit. That's what really takes her to that level to the point where she claims that her daughter's first word was...

Nazi, but she meant paparazzi. Oh, that is the darkest. That is tough. Oh my God. Just change the story, Kate. Anyway. Poppy or something. She got...

Doherty has a notoriously out of control lifestyle. I mean, he is heroin unsheik. He's just doing heroin. Heroin unsheik is just straight up publicly doing heroin. When they met, he just spent two months in prison for stealing from a bandmate. Oh my God. And she's like, I've never seen someone hotter. She's like, this is sexy. I mean, she likes the thrill. Kind of. A bad boy. But what happens is in 2005, this grainy video comes out in which she's

with Pete Doherty at a party. I think it's her birthday party in a group and she's cutting lines and passing them around and allegedly snorts five lines within 40 minutes. Oh my God. This one was a hundred pounds. Literally. I know. How'd she not pass away? Well, she's been doing it since she was 13. Gosh. It's in her blood. It truly is in her blood. Oh my God. Five lines in 40 minutes. I know. And she's a three-year-old. Not to like mom shame or anything, but I mean. No,

but this is the thing. This is like, she starts people. I think her custody comes into question. People start trying to, you know, a lot from her at this moment, she has been on the verge of signing this huge contract with H and M. She gets dropped by that contract by Burberry, by H Stern, by Chanel and by a bunch of others. Um, from this one video, from this one video. Yeah. But it's funny because people had sort of been like,

signing her and wanting to capitalize on her being like this huge party girl and then when there's actually like a concrete piece of evidence then they're like this will risk everything was she a lot older than this Pete guy yes yeah she not a lot he looks like a teenager she's yeah that is kind of his look yeah she's only like five years older oh wow yeah okay he does look young he does um look so she loses a lot of money but um time heals all wounds and they kind of all get over it yeah they're like it

I know. People do, in fact, you know. They broke up in 2007, which is the same year that she started designing for Topshop. She did? Oh, I remember. Oh, my God. I forgot about this in high school. I actually thought she owned Topshop, which she doesn't, but I've always associated them. She's like the, she is the brand. She is. It's still around. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't... I just think of it at the Grove, but I haven't been to the Grove in a second. I think it got hit pretty badly in, like, 2018 for some reason. You would look amazing in this outfit, by the way. Oh, my God. Thank you. I want this outfit. Yeah, like, Sienna... She gives me Sienna Miller vibes as well in this time. Fashion girly. Fashion British girly. Um, so...

Yeah, I mean in 2011 she marries Jamie Hintz of the Kills. They get divorced four years later, but you know, she's got a type. Shit, yeah, rock and roll baby. Wow, I mean we always like to, you know, dissect where it all comes from. So I wonder what her dad looked like, because these men all look... Well, her mom worked in a bar. Her mom was a bartender. Totally. And, you know, her childhood is marked by just like hanging out and drinking.

Drinking with her parents. There's an interview she does later where she says, oh my God, they have the dumbest questions. But it's basically like, this is when she's a child. I think she was like 18. What's the best way to spend a Sunday afternoon? Just chilling, not doing anything. Yesterday I watched EastEnders and cooked.

I don't like cooking, but I like eating. So my friends cook and I eat. Then we just drank wine and played backgammon and watched videos. Not very exciting, but a good day. Wow, that does sound like a gorgeous day. That sounds like my perfect Sunday. Perfect. At that time, she claimed her ideal date would be Keanu Reeves, which... Oh, he really did a number on women, which I don't... Well, I just think she would eat him up and spit him out. Wait, you guys, he's notoriously the kindest man, not only in Hollywood, but the world. Yes, I truly think he's great. I'm not...

physically, for some reason, attracted to him in the least. I'm not either. Yeah, no, it doesn't do it for me. But... But we love his energy. And I'm shocked that she would be attracted to him. Maybe he's so nice that he would, like, ground her. But he kind of has that horse face that she likes. No, she doesn't want nice.

No, I'm sure that's why it never happened. She wants the toxicity. She wants the rush. This is when she was 18, so probably they hadn't met yet. And so it was like, you know. We didn't know how nice he was. What was Keanu in in 1998? 1984. Is that that? 1984. No, no, no. This would have been like, 94, I want to say, would have been like Bill and Ted. No. Sweet November. Do you guys ever watch that movie? Do you remember that movie? No. Bomb on, oh, wait. Bomb on bus. Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, speed. Oh, speed. Bomb. Bomb.

Oh my God. He was in speed. Okay. I get the attraction there. Oh my God. He's like, he's sexy. That movie's great. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you who wasn't her type. Marky Mark from that Calvin Klein campaign. Uh, they said, um, did you fancy him? She says, uh, no, not really. He didn't fancy me either. We weren't really each other's types. Um, he, he likes girls with big butts and big tits and shit. And I just don't fit into that category. Um,

And there it is. And there it is. Like, he is so Boston, like, dark man. Dark. They had said to her, what's most important to you now, money, fame, or sex? She says, oh, definitely sex. Rather than money or fame, it has to be sex. And they reply, but you make a fortune, so money is important, she said. It's not important to be rich. It's important for everyone to have some money. Just a little bit is nice. Yeah.

You know who says that? Rich people. Rich people? This woman's been like a millionaire since she was 18. She has no cock. Well, but it is nice that she, you know, at one point knew maybe what struggle meant for her family. For sure. Listen, I mean, you know, in her lifetime, she's on every list. She's on every most beautiful list. She's on, she wins every CFDA award. And it's not just because she's this, you know, beautiful woman. It's because there is something about,

I spoke to one of our other mutual friends. Just one who knows her more intimately, shall we say. And requested to stay anonymous. And I totally understand that. But basically, like... Basically, the thing that this person claims gets lost about her is that something you can imagine is true of a lot of people who deal with that level of fame. And I do think that fame is...

mental illness is that you have this incredible ability to operate in chaos. He said, you know, she would be flying from some huge photo shoot in Brazil to Cuba to meet with Castro to some party again in the States to meet with Kissinger and that she was in fact able to like, you know, communicate with people in ways that other politicians couldn't, you know, like that she...

She had this incredible ability to embrace chaos and turn it into just staggering beauty and charm and cheekiness and, of course, also the ability to be able to be out until four in the morning and then show up and do her job. That's not nothing. I'm barely doing it at this minute. That is a gift. Truly. My God. I feel like she was born to do that, though. That was her childhood also, was chaos and turning it into something.

Wow. It all goes back, doesn't it? I mean, the other thing is that like, you know, of all of the models, of all of the supermodels of the 90s, she's really the one that comes out at the top of the heap. I mean, as recently as like, let's see, she's almost 50 now, but 10 years ago, she's still, you know, making $10 million a year. And, you know, a day's work is like her price tag for a day's work is $500,000. Like she's...

And that's at 38. Your modeling career is supposed to end when you're, you know, 24. Yeah. Literally. Didn't she just do skims? Yeah. She did do skims. I also really enjoy her friendship with Naomi Campbell. Like, I love that they were in the trenches. Naomi was there when she met Johnny Depp. She was? Damn. They've been through it. They've seen a lot together. I mean, talk about someone who's still at the top of their game. My God. Those two women are just...

Stunning. Stunning. That's another thing she said. She's like, people forget that I work. I mean, modeling is, from my very limited experience with it, it's so boring and it's so hard. It's so tiring. We have two models here. Talk about it. Talk about the secrets of what you guys went through. No, no, Genevieve can double. I've never been in both. Absolutely not. Okay. I mean, I recently asked Claire, I was like, Claire, do you think that people think

I'm a socialite. They do. Well, I do. And the reason that I said that with embarrassment is because I think it's actually like one of the chuggiest thing you could be because like, it's so analog. You have to like go to a place in person. Yeah. And like, that sounds great. Like not for you. You're not an influencer because you're not like, no, it's cheap to me. It's like Olivia Palermo in 2013. Like I am obsessed with the New York socialite. Well, there's that Hulu documentary coming out right now and Tinsley's on it and Olivia and they're talking about like those girls at the time.

You guys, I love you, but let's not fucking kiss. No, I'm not kidding myself. You don't kid yourself. Exactly. I love it. I love it, too. Me, too. All right, wait. Where did I leave off? I mean, look.

Okay, so she recovers from all of that, all of that, all of that drug mess. I mean, I think actually she doesn't totally recover. I think drugs and alcohol stay a pretty big part of her life. But she recently, I was like, where is Kate Moss now? And apparently she is, she has come out of saying that she, you know, reads the big book and works the 12 steps and is into like, transdental meditation, still smokes, God bless her. And, you know,

I should spend more time on my smoking. I really think I should get back into it. Oh, sure. What did you smoke? Oh, um, well in, when I was 14, um, I think I started with Marlboro lights. Then I became a parliament girl and then I decided to try to get healthy. So American spirit, of course. Um, but no, I quit when I was 24. So recently, did you smoke the whole time? 14 to 24? Uh,

Um, that I smoked the whole time. I think you were sneaking probably. Yeah, like, you know, I would sneak out for a cigarette in high school, but I wasn't like a packaday girl. God, you are cool. I know. Sorry. You're the first person to do this episode. You weren't smoking in high school? No, I was not. I had like a clove when I was 18 and I was like, blah.

Oh my God. And just so you Ramys know, of course, like we all know what smoking is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's cool. No, I actually think smoking is great. I'll kind of agree that like it's our food that's bad. Right. Well, I mean, I mean, people now say alcohol. We'll look back on alcohol in 50 years and be like, that's how we think about smoking cigarettes. I'm going to look back at it in five minutes when I feel like hot trash. It's headache juice.

Hey, 11 learner, you don't. It's a $25 bottle, okay? Yeah, it's classy. I mean, look, what is she doing now? She's running her modeling agency. She gardens. She lives in the Cotswolds, which actually, I think on my Instagram page, at Genevieve Angelson. Yep, yep, you promote that shit. I think I have a

One of those, one of those bubbles. Oh, the story highlights? Story highlights. I think I have a story highlight of the Coswells because it's basically like the Hamptons on roids. I mean, it's like everything you think about when you think about the English countryside. Like Charmaine. The moose.

I want to go. There's sheep. I want to go, too. Every thing is cobblestone. Why were you there? To film something? That's when I was filming the television show Flax. That's a great one. Amazon with Anna Paquin. She plays Anna Paquin's sister. Yeah. So I took a little trip out there with some friends. Oh, I love this photo of you. You look so tender in that picture.

It's fireplaces. It's, you know, it's hunting dogs. It's very you. It's gorgeous. You fit in there. Wow. Thank you so much. You do. Yeah. So she lives in the Cotswolds. I mean, everyone says about her is that like, she's really funny and she's really, I mean, there are certain people who would say like, well, she's very spoiled, but I also, I'm very wary of anyone who talks about successful women in a negative way. I agree. Yeah.

Like, what are you projecting? Why are you saying such negative things? Right. Why is it so hard for you to handle a woman in power? And also like, yeah, she probably is in a bad mood a lot. And anyone who's ever met a famous person is like,

let me tell you my story about this famous person and that becomes their whole character for everyone that ever talks to that friend. Also, like, I just want to say, even if she was this, like, rich kid, that also doesn't minimize her success. Her body doesn't minimize her success. Like, there's definitely a conversation there and there's problems, you know, in the 90s and today. But, like, she is a powerhouse. She is. And so, like, you have to just look at her as...

I mean, it's impressive what she's done. I always want to say, like, you know, in my experience with these things, I've always sort of felt like if you're going to have...

If you're going to have a platform, if you're going to have a lot of attention on you, it sort of is your responsibility to think about like, what am I projecting? Like, what am I standing for? And so I think if you're Kate Moss and you have this much attention on you, it does sort of behoove you to talk about bodies and body image. That being said, like...

it's never on the individual like it's not totally so much pressure on on the model or the artist or whatever and really it's like it's the person with the money who's hiring her it's like it's like deeper than that people who are launching the campaigns and we you know anyway it's just too much yeah i was really respect when women do that when they're like look i went through this it was really hard you know this is this is my story but i'm also never like lunch you need to do it because it's like it's hard to talk

Look about two to millions of people. Exactly. You know, it's a personal choice if you, it's nice, but you know, it's complicated. Yeah. What a time to like the nineties modeling. Wow. I mean, look, she got thrown off a plane as recently as 2015. So she does sound like she's a pistol. Wait, why? I don't know. It said it was just like she was being unruly.

I'd like to see that, honestly. Don't you kind of miss that? Just like that old school being a bad apple because you're an icon. You could say anything and not have to be worried about being filmed. Literally. No, I'm talking 2015. I'm saying, like, you know, celebrities should be difficult. Another hot take. Celebrities need to be bitchier. Smoking isn't that bad for you in celebrity. It's just going to be the title of the episode. It's a new t-shirt. Yeah, smoking is not bad.

And celebrity should be more difficult. Oh, we love it, Genevieve. That was so interesting. Is she dating anyone now? Is she married now? She's living a single girl life. You know, I had thought that she was still with the lead singer of The Kills, but in fact, they got divorced. So, no, I don't know that she's with anyone. Wow. She's promoting a new product I saw on Instagram. Something for...

Oh my God. I didn't even look at her Instagram page. She's like, I've lost so much sleep in my life. She's like, let me tell you when you're running off with 20 minutes per night. God. Well, Genevieve, that was amazing. That really was. I was transported back.

And it's just like, I love these kind of subjects because it's something that like I will never be. I'm never going to be like the grunge cool girl that's like, I don't give a fuck and telling people to go fuck themselves. And so I just find it very like captivating. But I think at the time there was also something about her that gave people permission to like not wear that much makeup. You know what I mean? That there actually is. It's not exactly like celebrities. They're just like us. But there was something about her that was so...

casual. Yep. That it was like, we can do that. A breath of fresh. Truly though. Wow. Okay. So we need to ask you a question that we end every episode asking our guests. Every episode with guests. Every episode with guests. This is the question that they get. If you were to smoke a joint with anyone dead or alive, who would it be and why? I know. Cindy Donald. Yeah.

I can't believe it's never happened. Does Cindy Donald, does Cindy Donald is Claire's mom? Can I tell you guys something? Oh, she told me to tell you hi. And she's so sad she didn't see you last time she was in town. My favorite job I've ever done. And I'll say this, like I'm picking the favorite among my children. I played Maggie the cat and cat on a hot tin roof. And I did it in Chicago, right? It's an, first of all, a play is ephemeral and you know, it never withstands the test of time because it doesn't exist. Um,

And yet, also this one was out of town, so it didn't even have like a New York audience. And Claire and her mom flew to come see it. It was... I remember that. You were incredible. That is friendship. It was my... It was like, because you were a witness to my life, my life happened. You know? It's like that thing that...

I don't know that thing that otherwise it would be like, did that really happen? Like, because it happened in the eyes of another person, it did. And your mom is one of those people. Does your mom smoke weed? No, she's, she has had like an edible with me recently and then she'll go to be, she'll like fall asleep and be like, I didn't feel it. And I'm like, yeah, because you fell asleep. I also wonder like, does she get drug tested because she works in a court?

She doesn't. Not that I know of. Yeah, she's a court reporter. But she said weed was just like never really her thing. Oh, and I always feel for people that are like, I don't feel weed. I'm like, you're just doing it. Guys, I do have to tell you I am the same. Oh, I for sure do feel weed. But not in a good way. No, that's right. I went to a chiropractor once and he did that muscle test thing on me. Yes, I just did that. Is that real? I don't know. But he basically put...

THC in my hand and he was like not your drug and then psilocybin and he was like and that's for you no that is for you those muscle testing things I also do that recently at Den Mother for like a homeopathic they tell you like what drug works with you they put like different supplements like for me I was just like trying to find something to help a certain thing and so they like put it on you and then they feel they put pressure against your wrist to see how you react to it so I want to do it

But I'm like, is it real? Oh, yeah. Well, it's real to us. It's real. Also, to go back to Count Elhut and Roof, I'll never forget scrubbing the spray tan off of you and running lines with you. Friendship, once again. And then it's friendship. Picture me naked in a brown bath water. Wait, why were you rubbing it off to play, Maggie? I forgot. You guys would be pale. There was this take in the play that we had.

okay, let's put it like this. I wanted the theater to pay for my spring dance. As you should. As, honey, you asked what you need. Literally the most on-brand, rampant, I could possibly say. It's true. But no, there was, I had this take of like, she needs to be really dark because even though, I don't know, are your listeners knowing about Tennessee Williams? That's what I should have done. Well, I want to do Tennessee Williams. We should do playwrights for a month. That would be so fun. Well, isn't your next month

queer icons yes yes I actually saw that list Tennessee Williams oh you should do Tennessee Williams come back for that one well anyway so anyway I was getting spray tanned often of course scrubbed my damn back while running lines with

It aligns with me because the whole first act of this play is just one monologue that Maggie does. It's amazing. It's like 35 pages of me talking. I know it's crazy. I love that play so much. I would love to see it. It's so good. Genevieve, well, where can people find you? You can find me at Genevieve Angelson on Instagram. I'm at Genevieve Angel on Twitter. Okay. I think my last tweet was about six months ago and I said something about how...

pug looked like a block of firm tofu tell me I'm wrong so if that's the content you're looking for not untrue at all you guys can check her out I mean pretty much on any streaming platform you can go to Apple TV go to Amazon Hulu all of it we love you we love you so much this was so fun alright guys we will talk to you soon and next week is Queer Icon Month

month. Queer icons for pride month. We are so excited. We're going to have another guest. We're going to just throw some things in for you guys. That's right. Okay. We love you. Goodbye. Bye.