The origins of the Corset and Shapewear
01:01:51 Share

Start building World War I battleships. Wow. So they were like, fashion, not a priority. No. Corsets, walk, so that battleships could run. Welcome back, Rammies. Welcome back to Right Answers Mostly. My name is Claire. My name is Tess. It's so good to see y'all again. It really is. Thank you for sticking around to episode two of Fashion Honey. Honey. Yeah, I mean, like, where to begin?

Did you go get... Whoa. Oh. Took a sip and can't talk. Did y'all enjoy Andre Leon Talley? I'm like still thinking about it. I need to go back and watch America's Next Top Model. Although I feel like there's so many episodes that it's like, how did this fly? I know. Like when I rewatch it once every like three years, I want to put on an episode. Sometimes it's just like too much. It's nostalgic, but also scary. It is. I mean, just the things that they used to say to people. Yeah.

I mean, the way that people talk about that working environment. A Mary Sacks stop model? Truly. Like crew members or something? Wasn't the hot judge, the male judge. Oh, Nigel. Nigel. What was his last name? Barker? Yes, yes, yes. Wasn't he accused of like fucked up shit? He really was. I feel like he just was always like, how you girls look good. Stop. All these like 17, 18 year olds.

It's so weird. Did you have to be 18 to be on the show? I don't know. Maybe 18. But some, I was thinking about that. I was like, some of those women are out working today. Like Anna Lee Tempton. Is that her name? She's like a manic pixie dream girl of our generation. She really is. Crazy stupid love. I know that. Okay. But crazy stupid love where she ends up giving her nude photos to the boy she was babysitting. That's just from romantic comedies go too far. You know, it's like, this is not okay.

Okay. That is not appropriate. Completely violating. But bring back the rom-com, please. Oh, God. Bring back Ryan Gosling in a rom-com. No kidding. Well, Barbie. I'm so excited. Check out our Barbie episode as well. I feel like people are going to love that movie or hate it and like,

Shit on Greta Gerwig. Because people are so protective of Barbie and all those things. I can't think of a better director for it. But you know that Corey and I will get in an argument every time we talk about Barbie because he is so against Ryan Gosling playing Ken. Why? He says he's too old for it. Oh. Corey, you're being ageist. Shut up. We had a whole hour-long discussion with it on his family vacation. And Ken was like, if you guys keep talking about this. He's like, that's okay.

But like we get into it every time. I think Ryan Gosling is perfect. Who would he want to play? Can he, um, what's his name from euphoria? I was just gonna say Jacob, Jacob Lordy. That is, that is Corey's can. Um,

I get it. I mean, Ryan Gosling's like, what, 40? Yeah, but like, Ken's been around. Yeah, I kind of liked an age Ken with some wrinkles. Me too. With some sun damage. Definitely the sun damage. Because like, he's kind of trash too. He is. But he's like, do you think Ken's going to live his truth in this film if you're picking up what I'm putting down? I sure am, and I hope so, Claire. I hope so too. I think that's the way it's going to go. I think that's why people are going to be like, no.

And get all, like, Republicans that watch it are going to be like, I hate this movie. Totally. The Little Mermaid's going to come out. They're already pissed about that. And then Barbie's going to come out. They're like, what happened to cinema? These fake people. Well, wasn't Amy Schumer going to play Barbie? And then she dropped out? I think Anne Hathaway was. But remember, Amy Schumer was originally, like, three years ago. And then she had differences with someone. Yeah.

And then it went to Anne Hathaway and then it went to Margot Robbie. I'm sorry. I would have been so upset with Anne Hathaway. Like she's being a style icon right now, but she ain't Barbie. She's, she does not have Barbie's essence. No. Even like the best actress, like it has to be someone like Margot Robbie. It's perfection. It's perfection. So excited for that. Excited for that. Um, don't know how we got here. Never do. Yeah. Um,

What else was I going to say? What were you going to say? I don't know. What else is happening with you? What else is happening with me? Not much because we recorded a Patreon episode yesterday. So I feel like we're mainly caught up in each other's lives. That is true. We've seen each other four days in a row. I love it. And I can't get enough of it. Join our Patreon. We spill some major tea in this episode. Yeah.

Something I've been waiting for. I know. Tess has been pushing me and I have opened up. And I'm proud of you for it. Thank you so much. It's always hard to talk about the past. Yeah, ain't that the truth. But we're doing it for you. Do you have any updates in your life? You paid some bills today. That felt good.

It did. I paid $220 worth in parking tickets. $200 and something? $220 for three. Oh, well, that one doubled. I had one parking ticket that I tried to contest and I thought that I've succeeded. And then they waited two months and they're like, nope. And that was $200. God, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, I did everything today that I've been avoiding, which was a hard day, but...

Felt good. Yeah. I'm going to the dentist tomorrow. I'm scared. I'm scared. I've been flossing though recently. I don't floss and I never have. I never have either, but I have been as of late because I got the easy flossing things. Oh, because you have the built-in retainer, so it must be hard to floss. The bottom, yeah. That I need actual floss and like a device for, but hey. I think I'm going to get a built-in retainer tomorrow. It's so worth it. But I'm like, can they even fix what's happened to my bottom teeth? Yes, baby. That's braces. That's braces.

Get adult braces. I am going to get adult braces tomorrow. Miranda from Sex and the City. Do it in dark blue like I did for my first time getting braces. Sapphire blue. That's what Miranda does on Sex and the City. I just didn't know. I was like, if it's dark, I don't know what I was thinking. Oh, I wanted all the colors. Do you remember being like, what color combo am I going to get now? Yep. I think for like...

I would do some like switching off. Every other one would be like lavender and pink. And then it was like green and like gray. Gray. I remember specifically having neon pink and orange. Yeah.

And this does tie into fashion month. It sure does because your mouth needs to be accessorized as well. It really does. Even for my headgear. I had like a cute little headgear, but I only had to wear it at night. Of course. Well, they told me to wear it 3 p.m. on and I was like, bring it to school. I was like, I'm not

doing that. And they were like, it's really important to like, if you have like, you know, basketball practice or like a rehearsal to like, I feel like that's dangerous. Basketball practice. They were just like, make sure it is on, like no matter what you're doing, it's in there 3 p.m. Sleep with it throughout the night. And then like, you don't have to wear it to school, but you have to wear it. And I was just like, and even my parents were like, you don't have to do that. No, no, no, no. Talk about bullying. I had a Rolly backpack as well. Oh, you had a Rolly backpack with you?

Better for your back. Of course. Of course. I had messenger bags that I would. Oh, you were like, cool. Now I have, no, now I have back problems. Hey, thank you, Deb, for telling me to have a rolly backpack. Although I do think that Emma, I believe it was Emma, got me a messenger bag, Vera Bradley. That was monogrammed.

Green and blue. What does she get for like a middle schooler? That's what you get for being lifelong friends. Wow. I'm pretty sure Emma got me that. That is gorgeous. I had it at some point. Remember Vera Bradley? I sure do. God, we should talk about for Patreon or old fashion trends like Vera Bradley. Because we've done like early 2000s before, but we should talk about like what we were wearing. Like really getting into it. Before all of it. When we were like 10. Yeah. That also was like such a time, you know? Such a time. Yeah.

I used to go and just store like stare all the Vera Bradley patterns. Did you guys have that? Or is that more Southern? I know what it is, but it wasn't like a big thing. Oh, it was big. I'm like, what was big in fat Sean? I mean, I just really was like, I just went straight to the juicy. That is true. I did love juicy in middle school. And what else do you need? Smock dresses, the matching tops, tops and bottoms. But then I got into like free people and anthropology, like kind of soon, um,

And I would like kind of went through like a little like hippie, like florals, blouses. Anthropologie's clothes are unhinged. They're unhinged. I feel like they're really good right now. Oh, are they? I need to check it out. Yeah. When I went in and got the best, I don't know how to style still. No, I love that best. When I think of Anthropologie, I think of art teacher.

I think it had a moment of doing that. There was, um, a gal in our grade who wore, um, anthropology and it's just very mature. It is very mature. Um,

But hey, fashion, fashion. So speaking of things that, you know, we've always been curious about, that we've always loved. Oh, wait. Always hated. Should we give a little shout out real quick? I'm so sorry not to stop you. How could we forget? But we just wanted to give a shout out to two Rammys, one of which being Mikkel. Thank you so much for answering the question. The Q&A is on Spotify. You can go do it right now. You are always

so supportive. We love hearing from you. Yeah, you're like an OG Ramy and we're just so grateful to have you in our community. And, you know, shout out to Texas. I think he's from Texas. I think you're from Texas too. Let us know. We want to go to Texas for a live show. We do. We love Austin. Yeah, we sure do. So we'll be there. And then our second shout out is to our OG Canadian Ramy, Nikki, who just got

Congrats. Oh, your engagement looks so beautiful. We're so happy for y'all. We just wanted to say we love you. Invite us to the wedding. We can't officiate it as well. That's right. We will be there to officiate it for you. We'll be like Lisa Vanderpump in that inappropriate see-through black dress. So Tess just watched Katie and Tom Schwartz's wedding in the woods. And Lisa Vanderpump was wearing a dress that made you look at her derriere. Okay.

It's just not the time to show off your butt. Right, which it's like fine, but maybe let the bride have it. It's so, I can't. It really pisses me off. But congrats to you. Yes, congrats to y'all. We would never wear that to your wedding. Never. Unless you wanted us to.

But we love you, Rammies. Speaking of things to wear. Yes. Thank you. So I did a vote or a poll a few weeks ago and I was like, okay, we could do like this fashion designer, this fashion designer. We could do Gigi and Bella, which I thought would be fun. Maybe that's for a different time. And then I was like, or we could just do the origin stories of like this, that. So I said like little black dress, heels, corset, all that stuff.

And so a few days ago, I was like, I'm going to start research and I'll start first with the corset. Yes. And then I was like, wait a second. There's so much information about this that this could kind of be a whole episode of like deconstructing what it meant, what it still means, kind of like, you know, dialogues around if it's problematic, if it's helpful, harmful. And then that kind of bled into like shapewear. Oh.

Oh. And so I was like, let's just do an episode about like the corset, lingerie and shapewear. Okay. And like how these all came to be. So I thought that we were, I'm, I'm like learning live as we go because I think the voice memo still broke off. So I thought that we were doing all the things, but we're doing corset and shapewear. We are. Because then I was like, I need to stop at some point because then I was like, it'll just go on for days. I felt like it was becoming like a little disconnected, but I thought the corset into shapewear was connected enough where it's like,

ways in history that have defined women's fashion that have, I don't know, well,

get into it because people have very strong opinions about the corset which also I didn't know there's people that have studied it it's been around for so long it's such a statement it's very sex like sexualized now um well I feel like it had a resurgence with the Kardashians it had a resurgence with the Kardashians it also had a resurgence recently like the first time that um

Billie Eilish showed her body on Vanity Fair Vogue. She was wearing just a corset. Sam Smith is into the corsets. I feel like now people are wearing corsets...

Oh, I was wearing your tube top the other day. And someone was like, oh, I love a corset. And I was like, it's not, but thank you. I feel like it feels a little bit like any time you're like in a tight, you know, strapless. And like, I feel like that design of that top is also very like feminine and girly. It feels very like Victorian. Totally. And I always feel sexy in that top. Me too. But obviously, like we've seen...

The corset with, you know, Madonna, Janet Jackson during a nipple gate in Super Bowl. Wow. That is the third aligned subject throughout Ram. Janet Jackson is our third co-host. She is. And I would be happy to have her. We could talk about that. For days. For days and days. But yeah, let's get into the corset. Let's do it. Okay. So the corset is an undergarment worn to give body shape or protection. Oh, protection. Gorgeous. Gorgeous.

The peak of its popularity was in the 19th century. Mostly used by women, also used by some children and men. Children? Men? Think about those rich kids wearing corsets. Oh my god. I can't. Just the rich kids. But like literally. Of course. However, the earliest recorded instance of corsets...

In history, it was from the Minoan people who were Grecian. Oh, right. I'll see you guys soon. Exactly. Yes, you will. I can't wait. Hello, Mimas. Can't wait. Summertime. That's right. On the island of Crete, around 1000 BC, people were in corsets. What even is 1000 BC? I can't even tell you, like...

what people looked like, what they were doing. What did you do? Well, you know what they were doing? What? They were wearing corsets at this time because... So there's pictures of...

Women wearing corset-like garments because in this time, in 1000 BC, people desired to have a very small waist. So where did it start, you know? Like, literally started here. Like, started, I think, because there was like... Oh, God, the Mediterranean diet. The Mediterranean diet.

All that oars, though. I'll take it. Made Greek food the other night, and it was great. It's just so crazy to me. I guess I just think, like, vanity is so recent, and it's not. It's not. And, like, I think it's hard to even think of, like, the first moment that that became. I mean, they were kind of trying to replicate images of Greek goddesses. And so I think they were like, Greek goddesses have a tiny waist and...

hips and like all of these things that they almost thought they were trying to achieve of like the fantasy of the perfect woman. And, but it's just like, why the small waist? Yeah.

Yeah, it just goes... There must be something in our minds that we see, like that hourglass, and we're like, oh my God. Yeah, I mean, I think the hourglass is proven scientifically to be attractive to the human eye. So crazy. But it's also like women are meant made, I will say, not meant, made physically to reproduce. Say how you really feel, Tess. If you don't have children...

You guys know what I mean. Biologically. Yes. Our bodies are made to reproduce and to have a lot of, a lot of cushion, especially in the tummy. And so it's just like, you know what I mean? You're just like, damn. So there's always been like a fighting against that. Fighting against, against that. Like, and that's why our hips are bigger than men. Right. Like all this stuff that you're just like, so interesting that this was like already kind of becoming like obsessive. Right. Um,

And then, so... I'm just also like, 100 BC, don't y'all have some more important things to worry about? Like where you're going to get your food tonight? Truly, like how you're going to survive and not be killed by other... This is when people were just like killing each other? It was Wild West. I can't even, I don't even can imagine. So then let's jump to the Middle Ages. So this is interesting because in the Middle Ages, your body was looked at as sinful. Right.

So it was like, don't show anything off. No corsets. Women were supposed to wear loose fitting dresses that covered them from head to toe. Also prioritizing comfort over shape because middle ages were just such a tough time. Well, so what would be considered the middle ages? Because I think of like, I think of the corsets that push the boobies to the chin. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. So middle ages, middle ages, like when the black death was, I think. Sure. Because I also think of the middle ages like King Henry the 8th.

So I think that was, it was the middle of ages. So middle ages technically I think is right before like the 15 and 1600s because 15 and 1600s, I see all of a sudden we see the corset as we know it today. Um, when,

Women in the French court during this period idolized the image of a small waist. So we're going back. Back to the roots. Well, so medieval, though, we're wearing ponchos. Middle Ages ponchos. Got it. 15th and 16th, all of a sudden it's like, and the body's no longer sinful. We are seeing a...

Is this when the Renaissance was? 15th and 16th century? I would say 16th and 17th century. Right, a little bit later. I'm so sorry, you guys. Because it's always 100 years. Like, 17th century is the 1600s. Right.

Sure. We're learning together. We really are. God, the timeline of this is going to be tough. We're almost there. I think I'm making it worse. I'll just shut my mouth. No, no, no. These are good questions. So this is when we see women being like, let's get sexual. Ooh, like that. So corsets were worn as both under and outer garments at this time.

To flatten the stomach and emphasize the fullness of the skirt. So it was like, make you look this way. Also show off, like because of what the corset's doing to your upper body, it makes your lower half look so much more like exaggerated and embellished and wide, which was fashion. Fashion. The shape of corsets was achieved using whale bone or other strong material materials.

Sad. I know. So it's like these old corsets were quite heavy. Oh, you know they're uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. This is before we see like a little bit more technology in fashion, be able to make it more... You've got whale bones sticking into your side all...

sounds dirty well they probably did too these poor women god yeah no kidding oh my god just things coming at them left and right oh god yeah no kidding they had to dodge a lot of things so not a good time um

You know what I also heard is like they had chaise lounges like fainting chairs because women were, I don't mean to step on your toes. No, no, please. But like that people would faint because their corsets were so tight that they couldn't breathe. This is true. This is true to some extent, but not to, I think it has been a little bit embellished in history of, which we will talk about, of women.

dangerous the corset was in terms of like health issues and which has been debunked by Shem. Okay. But they were not comfortable. Like, of course, that's just not going to be pleasant. And yeah, you were being zipped up. I mean, we all remember the scene in Titanic. Oh, yes. I mean, that was a more modern corset, but also when she's like, you're not to see that boy again, man. Have to say it.

That was great line reading. Thank you. And she's like tying the corset tighter as she's doing it, right? She's like getting mad at her. Oh, God, it's just such a good scene. And Rose just looks so stunning. And she's like holding the bedpost. And she's like, oh, stop it, Mother. You'll give yourself a nosebleed. It's gorgeous, Taz. Thank you. Oh, God, I'm going to get emotional. I know. I know. So let's see. So this timeline's a little long. So let's just try to... Let's get the points. We're here. Oh, okay. So what's interesting...

is in the 1800s is when corsets become a little bit easier to wear because there's the implant, implant, implant, implementation, implementation. I got this of hook and eye clasps. So that replaced the need for like the intricate lacing and women could finally put on corsets themselves. They put it on in the front and then do the twist. I mean, we all put our bras on that way. Don't we? Literally. You have to know another way. Well, now I just wear bralettes. Oh,

I don't remember the last time I wore like a proper bra to be completely honest. I finally tightened the, um, the harnesses. They look great. They really do. Thanks. I need some new bras though. I have not bought a new bra since 2020. Oh,

And that was the first time in probably years. These are Harper Wilde's. So from the last time we worked with them, which was like 2017. What a throwback. What a throwback. That's all I wear. And so I need some new ones. I do as well. Call us. If you're a bra company. Please do. But not if you're Victoria's Secret. No, no, no. We're not interested. Which we will talk about soon. Great. So what else is happening as time goes on? Do you remember in like early 1900s when women kind of strive to achieve the like...

The badonk. The badonk. So it was like an S shape. A donkey booty. Yes. So like that was really in. So then corsets were worn to force the chest forward and the hips backward. It is crazy. Imagine these women like walking like that. It just cracks me up. And it like showed like obviously, you know, higher status and like the bigger the butt. Yeah.

Like, the richer you were. Well, hey. Well, hey. And now the Kardashians have taken that and... To a whole new level. We all... Everything is so cyclical. Yeah. Um...

So then the war comes about. World War I. So we're jumping to early 1900s. So the corset began to decline in popularity because we just needed materials. We have bigger fish to fry. Bigger fish to fry. They were like, look, these corsets are like, I guess they asked consumers to stop buying them so they could redirect the 28,000 pounds of steel that were being used for corsets.

Oh my God. To start building World War I battleships. Wow. So they were like fashion, not a priority. No. Corsets, walks, so that battleships could run. It's true. Ain't that the truth? The priorities. So,

The core set's kind of dead and gone. People look back and they're like, we're never going to see that again. So we think. Yeah. And then come the 60s and 70s. And what's going on in the 60s and 70s? Twiggy. Twiggy.

We have the women's liberation movement. Oh, yeah. We have all of it. 60s and 70s were like when stockings and like pantyhose were a new trend. I love a shift dress, a short shift dress with stockings. So cute. Or no stockings.

No, and I guess... So pantyhose were originally designed to airbrush the color and texture of your legs, smooth the figure, and reduce chafing all at once. We love the reduction of chafing. I will never forget the first time I seriously...

Change is such a gross word. Same, but I went on a run and you're just like, what a terrible feeling. I think I was just standing for a long time in a dress and I was like, this is torturous. Torture. So we see similar trends of enhancing, if you will, smoothing, reducing, all of that kind of stuff. We see it in different ways.

Whether it's the corset, pantyhose, or like, you know, stockings, a certain type of shapewear, you could say. So we're seeing things happening. And then I thought this was interesting, this article that I read. The 70s, which was like, you know, really women's liberation, also Jane Fonda workout videos, aerobics.

And I guess she was like one of the first people to be like, ladies, we don't need to like wear anything to like help us get this figure. We exercise for the figure. And I was just like, was exercise not a thing before the 70s? I don't think it was as big of a thing. My mind was blown. It's crazy. I mean, there are pictures of like Marilyn Monroe lifting weights and stuff. My grandma had that in her workout room. Oh, cute.

The one where she's doing the press in the bra. Yes. Hot photo. In one of my, the apartment where Katie Maloney lives now and Vanderpump rules. I lived in that apartment in Valley village. That's right. And it was in the workout room there. It just like, it's a hot photo. It is a hot photo, but yeah, it definitely like exercising wasn't like, I feel like a daily activity as it is now. Right. Well, to the,

in Titanic not to bring it back this is like always my one guiding light to like anything historic for context there was a workout room on the Titanic yeah they had those machines that would like shake your butt or whatever you know

It's just different than what we see now. I feel like a lot more work was like labor intensive and stuff. People weren't sitting on their butts on a computer all day. And you also like walked everywhere. Exactly. So interesting. It is interesting. I was just like, huh, never thought about the history of exercise. I know. Which was... Sports month? Sports month, perhaps. Show. That's a little timeline of like what we're seeing with like the transition of corset, shapewear, all that stuff. Yeah.

So let's like dissect it a little bit. Let's like talk about why people have kind of had a fascination with the corset, why it was so popular, why it was so hated, all of the above. So I listened to this podcast called Hello Girls that are hosted by fashion journalists. Oh, fun. Kate Finnegan and Emily Cronin. They worked for like Vogue and Vanity Fair, I believe. And they interviewed this woman named Dr. Valerie Steele.

who's an American fashion historian and director of the Museum of Fashion Institute of Technology. Ooh, fit him. Fit him. Lauren Conrad. Is that right? Uh-huh. Wait, FIT is different than FIT.

IDM. Right answer. Because that's design merchandise. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I misspoke. I'm so sorry. No, I mean, it was the dream to be a fashion girl and go to Fit. I'm just like Elsie. It really was. And then she dropped out. Yeah. She was like, I got to go back to Laguna Beach. She's like, I don't need this. She's like, I am too rich already. Literally. I'm 18 years old. Something so interesting about fashion is like it can just be looked at in two completely separate ways. Like,

In a way, it is just something that you put on every day. And then it can also just be something that we put so much emphasis on, that we dissect, that we have conversations about. And I think both things can be true. I think we like to examine...

what women wear a lot more than what men wear and that just makes sense because of it's emphasized it's emphasized um you know the patriarchy like the sexualization of women's fashion but it's like if men and men did wear corsets to some extent but if men were wearing them 24 7 we wouldn't be having a dialogue about it well they'd also be much more comfortable that is true they'd be like whatever you want yeah literally we'll design it around your body yep um

So, yeah, I think that's interesting. I agree. So some people have said that the corset, many people, scholars, feminists, et cetera, et cetera, have said that they're instruments of torture and tools of the patriarchy. So Dr. Valerie Steele, who is a queen, she's just a very, she just knows so much, so much about fashion. She says that it's the most controversial garment. She has a book all about it. Wow.

the most controversial garment behind foot binding in China. Wow. And she kind of defends it, which is the corset in general and what it means. She says that there's a lot of misconceptions of the corset, specifically in like 16th through 18th century of like,

It's going to split your liver in half. It's going to crush your internal organs. There was this myth by doctors that because it was so tight, all of the blood would then rush up to your head, not leaving enough blood in your uterus that you wouldn't be able to reproduce. Oh, they're like, we've got to get them one way and the only way we care about. Well, where else did we hear doctors say that they're worried that blood will go to women's heads in education? Salem? Salem?

No, just like why women shouldn't be allowed to get education. Because you're like, well. That's why? They were like, there's not going to be enough blood left for reproducing. Oh, you fools. You fools. Like truly fools. And so I was just like, it's so interesting. And Dr. Steele says that it's just so many common fantasies that doctors had about women's bodies that you could kind of like draw back to a lot of fashion pieces and like.

Why are men... Sorry, I'm just hung up on this. Why are men so obsessed with reproducing? Because we see so often that a lot of men aren't even involved in the children's life after they do it. Why are they so obsessed? Like, who cares? I know. I'm like, where does that come from? Where does that come from? Probably a place of feeling, like, needed. Like, they're like, we are maybe good at... There's one thing that we know that we can do. Yeah. And that is...

ejaculation. It's so... Yeah, and they enjoy it. You know? And so they're like, that gives me purpose. Totally. And they need to serve me and our kids, you know? It's wild. It's like a whole control thing. I think it all goes back to control. Control. I agree. I agree. I agree. So Dr. Steele completely is like, look, I'm going to say it. It actually, like, let's debunk these theories that the corset was really harmful to you. She was like, um...

She thinks that anyone that is like still fighting it being like, this is so fucked up to women that you have to look like this. She was like the internalization of the corset.

is just because of like where, where we've always been a little bit with like women's bodies, but like, it's only if you need to make it about that. We also don't need to internalize it. We also can look at this in like so many other ways. And she's like, it's important sometimes to think about like origin, origin of things. Cause obviously it takes so many different forms as our culture changes and fashion changes with us. But she was like,

back in the day, the corset was a sign of wealth. Right. Because if you were hunched over, you looked like a working person. I know. I was like, straining my shoulders.

And there was this like aristocratic thing of the body is weak. It needs to be strengthened. We need to look like put together, ready to go. So it kind of did start with just a status thing. Right. Which is probably why men wore it too for posture and stuff. And men wore it more as like, it looked more like armor, but kind of the same thing of like, if you really think about like metal armor, not comfortable. Yeah.

you know, meant to look powerful. And the corset for women, it was that you were meant to look powerful. It wasn't even like a sexual thing. Interesting. I mean, thin, yeah, tiny waist or whatever, but power and, and wealth. Right. Was, was kind of the start of it. Interesting. Um,

So it's been proven that it doesn't really cause curvature of the spine. You know, there was like, oh, like... Does it cause your organs to like... There's literally no... Except for... So when she researched this, she was like, the cases where people had organ failure or liver, whatever, that was all from other underlying issues in someone's health. So like maybe if you have these health issues,

You shouldn't wear a corset. You shouldn't wear a corset. But if you don't, and it's this person that doesn't have to worry about it, you are going to be fine. She was like, doctors have actually like cured scoliosis with the use of the corset. So she was like, let's not like,

Immediately just think that it was killing women. Right. As much as it wasn't comfortable, it wasn't detrimental to your health. Whale bone does not sound comfortable. Absolutely not. I mean, no, nothing about it. Tight clothing is not... But it is nice to have something that does hold it all together. It does. And keeps your back straight. I mean, it sure does. Like we were talking about, when you have a tight top on, sometimes it's like, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Both things can be true. Tess, you know what I've been obsessed with lately? Tell me. My Caraway cookware. I have as well. Not only do they have cookware, they have food storage, they have linen, they have it all. They really do have it all. Also, did you know that they're non-toxic? Thank God. That's something I don't even want to have to think about when I'm cooking. We just don't have time anymore. We're getting too old to be cooking with things that are going to be unhealthy for us. And so it just makes me feel like...

The work is done and I can just enjoy cooking now. And it's so easy to clean. The food just slides right off. It sure does. The colors are just stunning. I have the Tupperware just out on my counter right now in the dividers because it's like, it's a look in and of itself. Same. They come in the best colors and they're just so chic with that extra storage. We love it. We love it. And we want to share the love with you guys. Visit carawayhome.com slash ram10 to take advantage of this limited time offer for 10% off your next purchase.

purchase. This deal is exclusive for our Ramy. So visit carawayhome.com slash Ram 10 or use Ram 10 at checkout for 10% off your order. Gorgeous. Go get some caraway kid. That's right. Obviously it holds a place in cultural imagination. And is it like cause or effect? Is it like hurting or harming? And I found it interesting to think about like going in to a little bit more of lingerie. Okay. Yes. You know, because like,

And because we are 90s babies, I just feel like we need to take a moment to talk about Victoria's Secret. Fashion show? Because, like, 90s and early 2000s was this time where lingerie became, and Victoria's Secret and the popularity of it, became something of, like, lingerie was expensive and it was for the rich and it was elegant to, like, lingerie is mainstream. We're watching the Victoria's Secret fashion show. It wasn't...

super expensive. It was then also targeted at like with pink Victoria's Secret secrets to like teenagers, middle school girls. And so I was just like, let's talk a little bit about it. Let's talk about it. Victoria's Secret. And also something I forgot to mention was, you know, where loose women, the term came from? Where? Women who didn't wear corsets. Really? Yeah. Yes.

have to do with their sexuality or just like they're just like tacky it's like you're tacky you're tacky and I hate you you're lazy lazy and technically translates like you're not bothered to get dressed wow loose fast fast fast and loose that's crazy that that's where it came from I know so interesting that is interesting um so Victoria's Secret I will ask you Claire okay do you remember the first item you bought from Victoria's Secret

It was probably the 5 for 25 underwear sale. Yep. You know, every summer you go in. I think I still have those. I was wearing one the other day and I was like, it's really time to throw these away. I completely understand. They're so uncomfortable though, but the 5 for 25. Were you...

Do you remember your first song? I don't remember my first song. We were just talking about this the other day and I don't remember my first one. It was such a scary moment in your like girlhood. Yeah. But an exciting one too. Exactly. You're like, this is the next step for me and I'm officially becoming a woman. Yep. Which is like so interesting because like lingerie had this moment of like, obviously we've always had shifts and like being covered up, being a little bit more exposed and then like

this period, I feel like it was like show your thong a little bit. The whale tail. The whale tail. Show your bra. And it's just so funny because my mom and I have just night and day opinions on showing your bra. And if I would show my bra in college or send her a photo, she'd be like, I like that look. That dress is really pretty. Why are you showing your bra? Just not being able to understand it. And I'm like, her generation or her being born in the 50s is like, what are you doing? You don't show your under

garment. You don't show it at all. I still don't like, like, my bra is probably popping out the back here and I don't love to show that. It wasn't early 2000s, so with the spaghetti strap, you would have, like, three layers of straps. I feel like an intentional bra showing is really chic. Like, if you're wearing a white tank with, like, a black lace bra. See, I love that. Dib would be, like, absolutely not. But, like, I've also never had, like, fancy...

bras that's why I'm like do you own any lingerie um no me either so the first time someone bought me lingerie was my gay friend Jarell in high school who went to Victoria's Secret and bought me red like a matching red set for Christmas and he brought it to Best Buddies which was the club that I was in in high school and he brought it and gave it to me there

And I will never forget being bright red and being like, why did you get that? And she's like, I'm wearing it. And I was like, 16? Why now? Oh my God. Yeah, so only wore it, like never wore it for the purpose of wearing it except for a

A magazine that Alice and I made for our friend's 18th birthday. I've seen it. We dressed in some lingerie and we were like, happy birthday, Ian, for his 18th birthday. And, you know, when we were seniors in high school, we thought we were being hot. You were? We were trying to be creative and understand our sexuality. You have to. You have to explore. But yeah, like, lingerie has never been for me.

Like, have you, like, worn lingerie? No. I would like to, but it is expensive. And it doesn't last long. It really doesn't. But you know what I want? If I were to get lingerie, I would get it for Love and Lemons. Oh, yes. They have, like, such chic, gorgeous. They do have cute stuff. I once, going back to anthropology, I once bought a lingerie, like, tight, like, dress. Like, black lace, like, dress. Ooh.

When I was with my ex-boyfriend whose parents, very Christian parents, gave me a $50 gift card to anthropology and I used it on the lingerie. Iconic. And I remember just like coming out and being like, I can't do this. Like I felt so uncomfortable. I know. I know.

I'm like, do people wear lingerie like under like because the movies have us believing that you're going to your office job wearing like lingerie underneath your clothes. Like that. Devil Wears Prada. Yeah. First scene where like all these women. I'm like, no one's really doing that. Right. Right. It's never been me. Never been me. I would like it to be me. But it's just not like I still wear Christmas PJ bottoms and huge T-shirts at night. You get what you get. You don't throw a fit. Exactly. Exactly. Um.

But yeah, I just think like, obviously Victoria's Secret was such an iconic time. And I think it was also during like a...

Another wave of like sexualization of women, of women's clothing. So like the Victoria's Secret fashion show, obviously. Oh my God. Was looking back just like didn't do anything helpful for me watching that. No, I used to like. 14 year old. I remember also them showing their workouts leading up to it. That was like part of the segment. It was always how to get like Victoria's Secret legs. Yeah. And it just was like, oh God. Oh my God, I wanted it so bad.

I want it so bad. Who wouldn't? Like, what girl didn't look at that and, like, wanted that? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you can't blame us, but, like, Jesus Christ. I didn't know Victoria's Secret was worth $11.8 billion. That's crazy. Just crazy. But if you guys don't know, you know, they had some rough times. In 2020, the New York Times published an expose on the culture of misogyny at Victoria's Secret from Ed Raz...

Razzix? Rampant sexual misconduct. He was like the head of it. He's disgusting. Well, he was the founder who made the business essentially for men to take their mistresses there. What? That was like the whole, that was the whole thing. It's like,

It's like, sir. Yes. So Villa Blanca is where you take your wife. Sir is where you take your mistress. And Pump is where you take your boyfriend. Yeah. I'm like, oh, great to create a whole brand based on cheating. Great. And having an affair. But it is where you take your mistress. But now. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, so laundry's having a moment until we get a little bit more of the height of shapewear. So Spanx. Yes. I didn't know that Spanx started in 2000. I feel like it was earlier. And then I feel like I really remember hearing about Spanx like in middle school even, like 2005. Yeah. I mean, I for some reason thought it was more like 2010. Like I remember being in college being like,

Should I get Spanx?

I've heard she is such a good, like she's so good to her company. She literally like gifted them all with like a week vacation, right? First class. Oh my God. Like what the plus one. Well, she's amazing. Yeah. The founder is Sarah Blakely. Uh-huh. So Spanx, which kind of, you know, I guess I would say kind of started like the. I would say was the pioneer for shapewear as we know it today. Because people tried to come after her like yummy tummy, Heather on Rosalind's in New York.

about yummy tummy so she sued spanks for saying that they like copied her model and spanks was like sweetheart sweetheart give it up what are you doing all right rammies who's tired who needs a break whether you're taking care of your kids you know we love our rammy moms a senior loved one or juggling both god bless we all need and deserve a break sometimes here.com can help give you that break by helping you find trusted caregivers in your neighborhood

So Tess and I were both actually nannies on Care.com and we found the most amazing families that we're still in contact with today. It's such a special experience. Thank you, Care.com, for that. So see why 29 million families have turned to Care.com. Find background-checked, highly-rated sitters, nannies, and senior caregivers who can help with everything from watching kids after school to meal prep for seniors. You call the shots and find out what's right for you, whether it's full-time, part-time, or even occasional help.

It's all on one simple platform. On Care.com, you can search for caregivers, view rates, and find care that fits your budget and schedule. How convenient is that? So check out Care.com to get the support and the break that you need and deserve. You deserve it, Rammies.

Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place.

You guys, they have everything. So from like the day you get engaged, you can start planning on Zola. You can find the venue there. You can create your save the dates. You can make your registry. You can make your wedding website. Even to the final stages of tasting your cake, Zola has everything.

everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan your wedding from

the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. Yummy tummy. Yummy tummy. Not so much, but...

Sphinx is an American underwear maker focusing on shaping briefs and leggings founded in Atlanta, Georgia. Oh, wow. The company manufactures mainly pantyhose and other underwear for women and since 2010 produces male underwear as well. Hey, love that. Truly. So they specialize in foundation garments,

To make people appear more shapely, thinner, whatever you want, whatever you're buying your Spanx. So the brand produces lines with names such as Bada Bing and Hide and Seek. And Oprah endorsed it as one of her favorite things in 2000. When you make it on your, in 2000. In 2000. You got right on it. Right when they launched. Good for you guys. Make it on Oprah's favorite things list. It's a good thing. It sure is, honey. They're estimated at 400 million now and 7.5 million.

employees. Wow. So like I think when shapewear first came out it was very like special occasion like if you're wearing something specifically that doesn't really make you feel good if you want to accentuate if you're insecure in this and like since the pandemic we have seen the shapewear market is really bouncing back with this new message of like shapewear is everyday wear shapewear is like something that you can also wear just like

to work out or like lounge around the house. And so, so what would you consider shapewear? I can, I personally would consider shapewear like the underwear that has like the tummy control. Okay. But that's, but you could, I guess consider shapewear even like workout leggings that have like biker shorts. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, I think it just kind of all goes back to like design meant for smoothing, smoothing. Okay. Got it. Um,

And I think this is where like the conversation comes in of like, I was like, if we look at like how people spoke about the corset and the purpose of that is the, is shapewear like doing the exact same thing? Is it like, and a lot of people are like, is it helping us or harming us? Like why, why do we need that? And is it necessary to hide this kind of like, you know, the whole sort of idea that these things are hiding imperfections. Right. Um,

Which, I don't know. What do you think about it? I'm just like, I totally get it. I would love to live in a perfect world where everyone wore a dress and you didn't wear shapewear and it was cool and no one gave a shit about it. But also, that's not the world that we live in. So at the end of the day, wear whatever makes you comfortable. Totally. And if you don't want to wear shapewear, don't wear shapewear. And I'm oversimplifying it right now.

But, like, it doesn't make you a bad person if you wear shapewear, and it doesn't make you a bad person if you don't. Totally. It's like, I mean, I felt like doing this episode would be sort of similar to, like, our plastic surgery episode. Where it was like, okay, we know that these beauty standards exist. Right. Like...

To oversimplify it is not fair because some people want it as they should. They feel better looking in a certain way that you could say it's because they're trying to conform to like cultural societal norms that the patriarchy supports. But at the same time, it's like that has been embedded in us and it's so unfair, but it just has. We do think certain things look good and don't look good for us personally. And if you want to do something to like...

So I had a pair of Spanx that didn't fit as well, but then I will say, I put on a pair of Skims. Say it. Honey. Smooth. Smooth. Well, Skims, I feel, is the much more trendy version of Spanx. Yeah. I feel like Spanx... They're also much more affordable than Spanx. Spanx go for like...

for like fucking $50 for that tummy tuck underwear. And like, yeah, for that, like skims, you can get like three pairs of underwear for like $45. Yeah. And I really, I listen, I know the woman is polarizing, but I do love skims. Skims is great. I have a bra. I had PJs that I got way too small. You got me the sports bra and the shorts.

And you gave me the brown pair of shorts. Yep. I wear that sports bra all the time. It's so hot. Yeah. It's just complicated because like, I don't know. I just want to be like, do whatever is best for you. Like, I can't tell you what to wear, what not to wear. Totally. And I think like back in the day, you know, Spanx was doing what they could, but this was 2000. So I think like they only went up to, you know, a certain size. But now we see people like, I didn't know that Lizzo had a shape or a line called Yitty. Yes. Yes.

But I haven't tried it. I haven't tried it either. And they are a no-shame, smile-inducing brand, they like to say.

where she's kind of trying to recreate and revolutionize shapewear and the relationship to it and our own bodies. So the line goes up. It's from extra small to 6X. Right. It's amazing. Spanx only goes up to 3X and Skims goes up to 5X. So Lizzo's line is like... The most inclusive. Let's go. And I think she's just trying to like...

Yeah, just recreate the narrative around it. Instead of being like, this is to hide us, this is to...

Yes. This is to make you feel confident. This is to make you feel good. Some of it is accentuating because it's like, God, I have, like someone could be like, I have a great butt or I have great boobs. So if I wear this, it will like show off my boobs and butt more. A hundred percent. It's just like. And that's okay to want to do that. And it is okay. And we all have things we love about our bodies and we all have things that we struggle with about our bodies. And that's a relationship for each individual. Yeah.

and do what you got to do to like walk into a party. Yes. That's what it do. What you got to do in a healthy way to feel the most comfortable about yourself and comfortable in your skin and enjoy your party and not have to worry about what you look like. A hundred, a hundred percent. Um,

And then I thought this was interesting too about shapewear. It's also, this article said that it's a powerful tool for transgender and non-binary people seeking to create a body shape more in line with their gender identity. Love that. And so I was like, that's something I never even thought about too. I just like to see it from all these different perspectives. Yeah, that's why I think it's really important not to just be like, fuck this.

this because of that. It's like, well, maybe it's more complicated than that. Truly. And the one person that might feel that and that's so valid, like I'm not saying I 100% feel a certain way. Another person is like a transgender person. I was like, this has completely changed the way I can dress. Right. And change my confidence. So, you know, I'm going to have a hot take. Say it. I wouldn't completely hate if corsets were like

In again? Yes. Well, I mean, like, they have always shown up in fashion. Like, I think it's a little intense when people are, like, wearing corsets, like, working out and stuff. Like, how can you fully move your body when you're wearing a corset? And maybe you do, and you know how. Right. But, like, I can't. Yeah, I mean, like, Kim tried to really bring that back in, like, 2007, 2008. Well, again, like, I feel like they're pretty reckless with their...

their body journey. Same. And what they present to the world or whatever. But like, God, wearing a court, like, ah, the boobies to the chin. And I just love it. I mean, there is nothing, there's nothing better than boobs. I'm going to say nothing better than boobs. Like what gorgeous things that we're allowed to, or just, you know? And so it's like, yeah, like,

Corsets are hot. Yeah, they are hot. It's sexy. And Billie Eilish's cover when she's wearing that corset for the first time, which is such a statement, you know, because she had never shown off her body. And then she decides to do it in something so dramatic like that. Did you see her interview recently about her Met Gala look? Oh, because she wore a corset. Yeah. And she was like, I...

I'm very much in touch with my masculine side, but I also love my feminine side. And I'm very scared to show my feminine side because it shocks people every time. But I want to be able to lean into both. And when I wear this, I really feel feminine. It's like... And that makes so much sense because it's like... Obviously, women's bodies are so scrutinized and controlled in a thousand different ways. And I think people are very triggered by seeing it so...

like out there there. Yeah. Cause we want to put people in a box and if they want to step out of the box that we put them in, it's not okay. It's not okay at all. It's not okay. Um, but yeah, I just thought that that was, um, that was interesting just to try to look at it from a lot of different perspectives. Yeah. Um,

And to end, we're going to play a little fashion game. Fuck yeah. Even though this is a little all over the place, you guys. Oh, sorry. I just rocked the table. Oh, you were good? I got excited about the game. You were good? Okay. So we're just going to take a little 180 just because I love a game. This isn't really about shape or corset. There is no direct line for us ever. There literally is not, as this episode proves. No, please. I'm talking okay. I think you're stressing me out. He's wiping away a tear, like literally. Okay. Choclair. Yes. This is kind of a big question, but like,

What do you think is your all-time fashion trend that you just love? Is it a little black dress? Is it a white shirt and jeans? Is it... God, I love little black dresses. Is it a crop top? Is it... I think...

Think a white tea and denim is like the ultimate. It is very you. I just think it looks good on everyone. I think it's so classic. Yeah. I might think of something later, but when you said that, I was like, I think that's it for me. It is so you. What about you? Oh, God. I mean, like, I don't know. I really like like a long dress.

with like high boots. Love. You know what I mean? Love. And a short skirt with high boots. I never wear that. High boots are so expensive. Same. I don't either, but I always look at that. But I want it. And when it's done well, I'm just like, God, that is so chic. Gorgeous. Like a high boot. Love it. Any sort of skirt. I love that. Love that. We're going to do a little this and that. Okay. If you were to spend all your money on purses or shoes, which one would it be? Shoes. What about you? Um...

I'm not a shoes girly. I'm going to say purses. Go for it. I just like, I feel like I can hide a purse, but like a shoe, it's out there. Yeah. I wish I was more like adventurous with shoes. I always wear like sneakers with everything or like black booties. And I want to like...

I saw the cutest Steve Madden, so it's not crazy, green heels the other day that have the... I'll show you, but I want them. You are heels girly. I need to wear them more often. I know. Did you ever feel insecure about your height? No. I think I got tall at an age that other people were getting tall, and I think I was lucky with that.

That I've always loved being tall. Yep. I love that for you. But I had my moments. Yeah. Because you got tall really young. Yeah. Like fifth grade, I was like taller than all the boys. Yeah. And I think then you just want to be small. You do. And like it's all fucked up. But speaking of which, flats or heels? God, it's just like, it's hard for me to say heels because I don't wear heels all the time, even though I love them. Yep. For like what? Just like in general? Like...

For... Yeah, I'm like, for what? For what? In my fantasy, I'm going to say, like, heels. Say it. Like, heels? Yeah, just say it. I'd probably say flats just because, like, I feel like I associate myself more with flats, but I want to change...

This year, I want to start buying some more heels. Please, let's go. I'm just like comfortable heels. Yes, comfortable heels. I think that's another thing that I'm just so sensitive. I'm physically a sensitive person that an hour wearing uncomfortable shoes, I hate my night. They're scary. I'm miserable. They're scary. It's not worth it when you're hobbling home. Truly not at all. I remember when I first got to L.A.,

I went to the musical once premiere because my friend was in it. It's like I went with him and we did like a little red carpet thing. And I was like, I need to wear designer because I'm gonna be photographed. And so I asked Adrian's friend page who worked at Gucci. I was like, could I come over to your closet? And she was like, sure, sweetie. She's like the most like gorgeous. Oh my God. Anyone named page. So she looks like Blake Lively. Oh, gorgeous. Just paint a little image. And so I went into her closet.

And she was like, pick one. It was like that scene in Alabama. God. And I picked a YSL dress. So chic. And purple strappy Louboutin red and purple heels. I've never been so uncomfortable. Louboutin is not a comfortable shoe. I don't know.

I want to know though. For like fucking $2,000 or whatever. For the red sole, that's all you get. But I just remember being like, this is, I'm Carrie Bradshaw. Of course you were. I'm like, there's no other way to put it. Two designers one night. God. Gorgeous. It was gorgeous. Colors or neutrals? I was actually thinking about this the other day because I was shopping and this definitely like changes with me. My closet right now is pretty neutral, I would say. But God, I love a pop of color. Same. I would say more neutral now too. Yeah.

But it just depends. Like summer, I love more colors too. I think it's just so scary to like wear such like a bold outfit, you know? It's so fun once you do it. It is so fun. Like wearing the pink outfit that I have, it's like all pink and now I'm wearing my pink purse with it. I love that outfit so much. Put it out. I mean, it's everyone's. That is like sisterhood of the church. I don't think I've ever worn it. Please. Yeah, I've never worn it. It's Zara, so it's nothing like precious. You, Allison, Claire? I am Claire. Okay.

Listen, Lauren, I think so. Is that it? I think so. Yeah. I'll post a picture for you guys. Yeah, we'll post them. Some documentation. Minis or maxis? For skirts. For dresses. For skirts. For dresses. I'm going to say mini. I'm going to say it too. There's nothing like showing off those gams. That's right, Tess. Show off the gams. Nothing like it.

And I put black or white and I don't know why. Black. Same. White's a tough one. White is tough. Black never fails. The moment of white ripped jeans was skinny jeans was a really tough time and that's really

early LA days. Although I do want some like white jeans right now, not skinny jeans. Like the looser, like yet. And I never thought I'd say that, but here we are. I'm here for it. Ever evolving. And we love that. We do. And you know what guys, that is the episode. Gorgeous Tess. I don't know why you're shaking your head right now. I had such a good time. I just was like, it was so all over the place.

the place no it wasn't okay okay we're literally here to talk about fashion and that is what we did that is true we love the fashion that's right um everyone dm tess right now and tell her how much you loved it hey that was sweet you know sometimes you're just like eight ones that are like a little bit more like not singular sometimes it's always the hell was that no it was gorgeous okay great well i hope you guys enjoyed it and we have a really fun guest next week we do it's going to be completely

different than what we've been talking about in the past two episodes. That's right. It's going to be really glamorous. That's right. And chic. She always brings, she, I'm giving you a hint, always brings glamour, always brings a chicness. She is a New York icon. She sure is. So get ready. Follow us on Instagram at Right Answers Mostly and TikTok. Give us a five-star review and leave like an actual written review. That would be so nice. Please do. We're watching you. We are always watching. We'll give you a shout out.

We will. So please. And we love you, Rammies. And let us know the answers. We'll do on our Instagram the same question. So let us know your answers. Perfect. All right. We love you guys. Hasta la vista. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.