The Donner Party, Cannibalism is Scary.
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Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly. Happy Monday. Happy Monday. We are here to hopefully make your Monday better. This one might be a little tough, but we're on this journey together. We're making your Monday more disturbing. Yeah, more disturbing. That's what we're here to do. It's our job. Yeah, you know, this is a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but wanted to. My name is Claire Donald. And my name is Tess Palermo. And here we are, another week together, season two.

God bless it. Anything else going on in your life you want to talk about, Jess? To put you on the spot? Like, you know, it's been hard. It's always hard. It's been, you know, life is good. It's been busy. It's been busy. We were just talking about how we are ready for summer. Yes. There was a heat wave in LA last week.

And it has since left us. I mean, it's still like 60, it's like 70 degrees in summer. So yeah, you people on the East Coast are not happy with us right now, but that's okay. Come on out West. Speaking of which, I didn't even mean to, but we are talking about people who went West in today's episode. You always do the transition so well. I don't believe that you didn't plan that. Right. I did not, but you know.

Sometimes it just strikes you. Yeah. This episode was actually, the subject was first recommended to us by Adrian Belomo. My brother. Shout out to Adrian. And I didn't really know anything about this. I feel like I've heard the term the Donner Party before, but I don't, I didn't know what it was.

I really don't know what it is. It's, um, if I know that Tess doesn't know about the subject I'm doing, I try to keep it low key. Yeah. Very hush hush. Very hush hush. But also being like, this shit is crazy. Yeah. I mean, I think I know one thing. Yes. The cannibalism of it all. That was ruined by Adrian, even though this was inspired by Adrian. Because if you try to text someone the Donner party, it will always autocorrect to the dinner party. Yeah.

So Claire was texting him being like, Aja, dinner party. And he was like, what? He was like, different kind of dinner party. Am I right? And then I was like, what do you mean? Aja was like, Tess, I'm sorry. I spoiled it. Because guys, I didn't know that that happened. He literally was like, they ate each other. And we'll go into it. It's shocking. Just a little bit of casual cannibalism on a Friday afternoon. And a Monday morning. Drinking some whiskey. That's right. Were you wearing bonnets? Yeah, I think I feel insane right now. Me too.

But we look like little babies. We do look like little babies. I can't believe this was in fashion at some point. It's crazy. I've got my Western pants on. Yep. You have a cute little like Western prairie yellow bow shirt. Yes. And the way that Tess could provide us our outfits with early 2000s, I was somehow able to have a plethora of prairie outfits. We complete each other. When I first met you, I remember being like, she's kind of prairie chic. You know what I mean?

Laura Engel, Wilder Chic. Yeah, but just that effortless. Wow. It was cool, and I was like, damn, you don't see that a lot. Wow, you flatter me. I only speak the truth. Yeah.

Well, today, unfortunately, these settlers did not have a chic experience, but... I see. Is this like similar to Oregon Trail? This is, and we're going to go into Oregon Trail. They actually started with the Oregon Trail. That's why Adrian wanted to know about it, because Adrian used to be obsessed with Oregon Trail when we were kids. With the computer game? Yes. Guys, I mean, what an iconic time in history. If you didn't die of cholera...

how did you make it? Not only, it would be like, whoopsie, you died of cholera. Too bad. And you're like eight years old being, what? Yeah, they didn't give you time to mourn it? To grieve? Your sister died of typhus. Too bad.

There was also when the wagon got stuck. Oh, yeah. All of these things. It was very realistic. And you had to like plan going out on the Oregon Trail. I mean, they would sit us down in a computer lab and for like 45 minutes be like, go. Yeah, the game was fucked up. Explore. And then like no one talks but after. You go into class and you're just like, we can't speak at this again. I also died. An even more tragic one. I do feel like something would happen. You would look at your person and be like, shit, did you see that? Yeah.

God. What a time. Let's play it. Yeah, let's play it. Let's see. Hopefully they, I'm sure they have it somewhere. It's online. Okay. I need to take a sip of this. Claire and I are a little hungover from trivia last night. Yeah. I always have a trivia hangover. You get excited. They keep bringing us wine. Bless them, Matt. But Waterfront, we love you. But, you know, we end up having five glasses, I think, every time. Every time. At least. That first time we had seven. Don't remember that.

No one does. This whiskey is actually hitting pretty right. Okay. Let's do it. Let's do this. Okay. So first of all, always have to give a shout out to where I got... Is that whiskey a little tough? Where I got my facts, my research. Shout out to the podcast, the last podcast on the left. They have a two-parter podcast.

on the Donner Party. Okay. The Rick Burns documentary, The Donner Party, and this website called legendsofamerica.com. You have been doing so much this week.

It's a lot. Just a quick side note. Whenever we're researching, obviously we're talking, but then there's this part of your life that I feel like I don't know. It's secret. It makes me sad. I had an emotional affair with the Donner party this whole past week. That's how it feels? And I didn't like it. That's how it feels? Well, trust me, you are on the better end of that. I cannot wait. Here we- Let's giddy up. Go. Let's giddy up. There she is. I tried. The student becomes the teacher. Just a heads up to everyone.

Because we are talking about cannibalism at some point, this story is very disturbing and upsetting. And it's truly one of the most taboo subjects you could ever talk about. Cannibalism.

Yeah. You know, like that's something you just like don't talk about, especially that it actually happened. And it gets pretty gruesome and awful towards the end. It's a trigger warning. It's a trigger warning for cannibalism that triggers you. I truly woke up this morning and was like, I can't believe I have to talk about this today. Also, that triggers you. I'm interested to hear why. We'll do a bonus episode. Come on board. Okay. So.

The journey of the Donner Party was the American frontier's most infamous expedition. The Donner Party, sometimes called the Donner-Reed Party, was a group of American pioneers who migrated to California in a wagon train from the Midwest in 1846.

The Donner Party's journey was delayed by a multitude of mishaps, and what started as a hopeful journey soon turned into a hellish nightmare of disease, starvation, murder, and cannibalism.

And cannibalism. I'm sorry. I need to stop laughing at cannibalism. I don't know why it's making me chuckle. I'm glad it's making you chuckle. I'm like scared this episode is going to ruin you. I might not be chuckling at all. We'll see. We'll see. Okay. So let's just talk about the Oregon Trail for a minute. Some backstory. The trail connected the Missouri River to the valleys in Oregon. The trip was about five to six months long. Would you think about it? You're truly in a wagon traveling for five to six months.

Think about what you were doing in your life five to six months ago. And that's when you started the Oregon Trail and that's when you end up. Wow. Yeah, it's a long journey. Why did they have to go? So the travelers were mainly farmers, missionaries, Mormons to be specific, but they usually dropped off in Utah. And now they have given us the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you to the pioneers. Yeah, absolutely.

The ranchers, they were ranchers, immigrants, business owners and their families. Anyone looking for more opportunities, the dreamers. I see. Because you can make so much more money farming in the West than you could in the East. Like the East was very overly populated at this point. Also like weather kind of is better for farming in the West. Damn, so all that to like...

Yeah, for a better life. Pursue your dream of farming. There's also... Pursue your dream of farming. Farmersonly.com. They were all traveling the Oregon Trail. Bonus episode. Yeah. There's also this like really fucked up thing called Manifest Destiny. Do you remember learning about that in history class? Is it like...

trying to get a better life by doing toxic things. I feel like that's like the way that like history class could have tried to explain it to us and be like, these people, this was their destiny to go out and get it. I mean, manifest destiny is the idea that the United States is destined by God to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent.

And this justifies the forced removal of Native Americans and other groups from their homes because they're like, it's our destiny. Oh, great. Yeah, I know. I didn't know that factor. It's always like really convenient to blame God for you doing terrible things. You know, being like, I'm destined by God, actually. And also putting people in shitty positions. Yeah. Other people that...

Yeah, Native Americans who have been like, we've been here since the beginning of time. Fuck off. Yeah, then you use God. Yeah, yeah. It's tough. It's tough. But the Oregon Trail was also expensive. I read my notes. The Oregon Trail is like, it's expensive to be me. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, you knew it. It's coming. So it was estimated that the journey cost a man and his family about $1,000. And he would also need a specially prepared wagon that cost about $400. And I did the conversion. I was about to say, what is it? Here we go. $1,000 in 1846 would now be worth $36,684.47.

And $400 was $14,673.79. So your total trip on the Oregon Trail would cost you $51,358.26.

I mean, that's like an investment. That's like a year's salary, you know? And back then, like, I don't feel like people were just like making money. It's not like people had jobs with salaries of $70,000. So was it primarily more wealthy established people that had the opportunity to do it? It was a mix. I think there was...

which we'll see on this. And I think it was people who literally sold everything that they had for a better opportunity. Oh, that makes me sad. It's crazy. Like we are so spoiled. Oh.

Oh, God. We complain about fucking going on a six-hour flight to New York. No kidding. I cried when I was maybe going to go on a vacation with hiking. I would never survive. We've all been there. I would never survive. But yeah, it's just wild. And this is less than 200 years ago, mind you, 1846. So what months was it?

This is that I'm glad that you asked because timing was crucial. Because of weather. Because of weather, yes. With weather, you didn't want your wagon to get bogged down by mud created by spring rains or by massive snow drifts in the mountains from September onward. So traveling during the right time of the year was also critical for your horses and ox getting the right grass to eat. Oh, yeah. So you wanted to leave...

And we'll talk about this. I think the prime time was like mid-April, your birthday trip. Love mid-April. Tour season. Yeah, exactly. Tour season. We're heading out west. For my birthday this year, we're getting a Donner-themed party. Oh my God, don't do it. Yes. I'm like, I have to get away from these people after this episode. Okay, so...

Also, let's see. Oh, there's a website and I'm going to post it in our show notes where you can, it's basically like the Oregon trail video game where it's like, okay, you have three or you have $1,000 and it breaks down how much everything costs and you have to like try to plan your trip accordingly. Oh God, nothing stresses me out more. Same. I was like sweating when I was looking at that. I'm like, but what if I need like six oxen? But like what? I don't have enough money if I, it's just too much. I can't even budget out like my own like gross groceries. Yeah.

For a week. It's like the grocery store right down the street and then my lettuce just goes bad in my fridge. I'm like, how'd that happen? We never survived. But besides that, like the Oregon Trail was not extremely dangerous. Oh, it was extremely dangerous. Sorry. Yeah.

But not necessarily fatal for those who traveled it. It was estimated that only about 4% of the people who took the wagon trains died. And most of those people were children that didn't really stand a chance in the first place because their parents were so preoccupied with like trying to keep everything together and travel across the country. So they might get bit by a rattlesnake or like get crushed by a wagon wheel. Crushed by a wagon wheel?

If you're watching the show 1883, there's a scene where people are trying to get the wagon over a hill and someone was doing it in front of a wheel. They finally got it over. He tripped and it crushed him. So, yeah, it's, you know, mainly kids are drowning. You know, that was something that happened. And then, like, obviously sickness happens.

Right, because in that time, everyone was just fucking sick all the time. All the time. I mean, so unsanitary. So unsanitary. But so that's the Oregon Trail. Let's meet the Donner Party, shall we? Oh, yeah, yeah. The originator of this group is a 45-year-old man named James Reed. He was a successful businessman from Illinois. He actually served with Abraham Lincoln in the war Blackhawk, which I'd never heard of that war, but apparently it happened. And he served with them. So he was a well-to-do guy.

And he wanted to head west to build a greater fortune in the rich land of California and be an actor. Yeah. And go to Hollywood, baby. He also hoped that his wife, Margaret, who suffered from terrible headaches, might improve in the coastal climate, which is also so funny. Back then, they're like, you're sick. You need to go to the mountains. Yeah, go to California. Get that sunshine, baby. That's right. Fresh air. Okay. So I sent you a picture to us.

Yes. Yes. And this is James and Margaret Reed. Let me know when you have that pulled up. Check out our Instagram at rightanswersmostly.com. It is pulled up. Okay. That's Margaret Reed, his wife. In this photo, she's 32 years old. You are kidding me.

Oh, God, this is coming at a very bad time. I was just looking at myself in the mirror at the studios, at Pirate Studios, and I was looking at my forehead and I was like, damn, 30 has changed my face. Not like Margaret Reid has it. Now maybe I feel much better. A little bit better about myself. You look fantastic regardless. Expect.

Sorry, Marguerite. Yeah. I mean, did everyone in that time just look a bit older because it was just like- A tough life? Oh, yeah. I'm sure. You're stressed out all the time. And maybe like, you know, your life is shorter. So like they're 32 is actually like our 50. I don't know, but that's tough. How old is he? He's 45. He looks pretty good. She just looks like she's seen some shit. She doesn't even want to be with him. Being a woman back then, I'm sure she did. She's like, don't touch me. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah.

So James Reed had recently read the book, The Immigrant's Guide to Oregon and California, written by the 27-year-old Lansford W. Hastings. And Hastings' books painted California as this wonderland and advertised a new shortcut across the Great Basin. His book and New Route advertised that it would save the pioneers 350 to 400 miles and was on super easy terrain. And it's a great trip.

So it sounds amazing. And it was only supposed to take four months to travel on this new path. Oh, damn. So you lose a month or two? Yeah, you lose a month or two, only going to be four months and it's super easy terrain. Here's the thing. How did he know this? So he did it and wrote a book about it? Mr. Hastings pretty much fucks everything up for everyone because he's advertising this. He's never actually traveled it before.

He just looked at a map and was like, why don't we just take this way? It seems like it would be so much easier and save you time. And so he puts out a book and it's like, follow my path. He also wanted a lot. He wanted to build an empire in California. So we wanted to get a lot of people out there.

This is detrimental. Also, why is everyone in the olden days named Hastings? Hastings. It's always like an evil name. Terrible. I'll just tell you right now because we know that this ends badly. This shortcut was advertised to take four months. It ends up taking the Donner party a year. A-yack.

Just because it's easier doesn't mean it's better. And it's not easier just because it's shorter. Oh, my God. But James Reed was super into the idea of a shortcut. Who isn't? Yeah. I don't have to do as much work. Thank you. I am. Yep. So the shortcut is what they were planning to do. And James and Margaret Reed were traveling with their four children, as well as Margaret's 70-year-old mother, Sarah Keys, who was so sick with consumption that she could barely walk and refused to be separated from her daughter. 70? Yeah.

That's like old for that time. I know. I know. Damn. She had a 35 or 32 year old daughter. I feel like she had her older too in that time. A pioneer more ways than one. I wonder what the life expectancy was in this time. Good question. Well, not for the daughters. It wasn't that long. In your 40s or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, so James Reed teams up for this journey with brothers George and Jacob Donner. That's where we get the name, the Donner party. George Donner was a 62-year-old farmer who had migrated with his brother Jacob so often, and they had always done pretty well for themselves. George is traveling with his 44-year-old wife, Tamsin, I believe is how you pronounce her name. And there are three daughters, and George's daughter is from a previous marriage.

George Donner's little brother was 56 year old Jacob and he was traveling with his wife, Elizabeth and their five children and Jacob's teenage stepson.

So even though the people of the wagon train, so a wagon train is basically a bunch of wagons like in a train, like put together. That's how they traveled. Okay. Got it. So trains did not exist at this time. I think trains exist. Good question. Like what mode of transportation could they have done besides wagons? I think they have boats, steamboats and stuff. And that's how some people used to get, because they would go around, but the Oregon trail was like much faster. Yeah.

And I think that they had trains. Maybe it's a little later that they have trains. You guys can look it up and let us know. Yeah, even though James Reed was the guy who made all the big decisions, everyone really liked George Donner and they eventually elected him as the leader. They all loved him. They called him Uncle, which is weird. I don't know. Don't cross the line. Yeah, I just don't like that as a nickname. But in the nine brand new wagons, the group estimated the trip would take four months. The first destination was Independence, Missouri, which was the main jumping off point for Oregon and California trails.

Reed's trail, or Reed's wagon, by the way, was an extravagant two-story wagon with, I'm like, two-story wagons? Holy shit. With a built-in stove, spring cushion seats, and bunks for sleeping, taking eight oxen to pull the luxurious wagon. Reed's 12-year-old daughter, Virginia, dubbed it the Pioneer Palace car. It sounds stunning. Stunning. Stunning.

Two stories. How does that even work? Should I have like a little mini ladder in there? Yeah, I guess that's true. A bunk up top maybe? If you want to reach my standards, I suggest you grab a ladder. For all times? It all goes back. It all goes back. Donner party. Bravo. Okay, so ironically on the day that the Donner party headed west from Springfield, old Lansford Hastings, that liar, prepared to head east from California to see what the shortcut he had written about was actually really like. Oh, good. He's like, maybe I should try this out. Yeah.

So, this is a quote from Virginia Reed, James Reed's daughter. My father, with tears in his eyes, tried to smile as one friend after another grasped his hand in a last farewell. Mama was overcome with grief. At last, we were all in the wagons. The drivers cracked their whips. The oxen moved slowly forward and the long journey had begun. I guess I just forget, like, when people are going on the Oregon Trail, I forget that, like, they're leaving everything behind. They're leaving all their friends, all their, like, extended family behind.

And do they know that there's risk of death or do you think it's more like it's going to be hard, but that's not even like, I think that they think that there it's going to be hard. There's obviously risk of death because people get sick left and right at this time. But, and that's like why people had so many kids too. It's like the child mortality rate was tough. And also they needed like working hands, but I don't think that they ever thought we're going to end up eating each other. Oh God. It's, it makes me anxious. Like the beginning of the journey. I know. I don't like it.

I always get anxious. The hope. The hope. So they make it to Independence, Missouri to really start the journey to California. Remember how I said that timing is everything? Timing is everything in life. It sure is, Claire. In relationships and in the Oregon Trail. The absolute latest one could leave and hope to somehow make it to California before the snows made the Sierra Nevada mountains impossible was May 1st. That's like the absolute last time you can go. Sweet spot was mid-April.

James Reed leaves about two weeks after May 1st, and no one really knows why they were so delayed. So on May 12th, they take off in the middle of a thunderstorm, which is also a tough way to start off. One of the immigrants wrote, I'm beginning to feel alarmed at the tardiness of our movements and fearful that the winter will find us in the snowy mountains of California. Ominous. Ominous. Ominous.

So the journey, it seems like the rain lasted a couple of days, made the path super muddy, which slowed them down. And they had to get the reeds like mega mansion wagon over the smallest like incline. So it was like already pissing people off. It's like, listen, we're,

We have given up everything to travel this and you have a mansion for a wagon and now we're having to do extra work for you. Yeah, not a cute look. No, because it's also like they are traveling with strangers. It's not like your best friends. Like it's your family with a stranger's family too. So it's not like they're all going to get along on this long journey. Sounds terrible.

So on May 25th or 27 ish, I got like different dates on that. The wagon train was held up for several days by high water at the big blue river near present day Marysville, Kansas. And they had a camp to make a camp there to make a makeshift ferry for the wagons, which I wouldn't even know where to begin.

There's so much, like, skill you need to know. Yeah, and, like, is this just one of those things in that time that you learn this, like, in school almost? Like, those are, like, the... I guess so. I feel like the men, like, boys just started working so early and you just learned that. I don't know. God, that's all... I feel like that's all you lived for was to survive. Damn, that's so true. It wasn't for, like...

No, no. What's that Dolly Parton quote? Don't get so busy making a living that you forget to have a life. They're just singing that the whole time. They're like, you have no idea how hard it is to survive here. Okay, so this is when we experience our first death. Sarah Keyes, Margaret Keyes' mom, who had consumption, has passed.

So they had to bury her a grave under a tree by the river and they had to still make the ferry. So this death and ferry business sets them back another five days. They're already two weeks late and now it sets them back another five days. Yeah. Which, you know, wouldn't have been a big deal to be set back five days if they didn't leave two weeks late.

Right. Yeah. So that's tough. Oh, God. On June 16th, there is an entry from Tamsin Donner, I believe George Donner's wife, and it says, we are now on the Platte. I think it's Platte. P-L-A-T-T-E. Or is that Plate? Platte. Sure. I think. I don't know. Both. So 200 miles from Fort Laramie. Laramie? I don't know. It doesn't matter. I never could have believed we could have traveled so far with so little difficulty. Yeah.

Indeed, if I do not experience something far worse than I have yet done, I shall say the trouble is all in getting started. Oh, boy. Sounds like my journal entries from 2020. If this is the worst of it, it can't be that bad on, like, March 1st of 2020. It's so ominous. It's so devastating. Okay. So as we're going along, the wagon train is picking up more folks and adding to their party. There were the Murphys, the Greens, the Graves, the Eddies. So more families are getting added on to this train. Okay.

And in total, the Donner party makes up of 87 people. Oh, damn. How did they plan that before? Like, we're going to pick you up here? I don't know. Good question. From what I saw, it kind of looked like people were like, oh, yeah, we're starting on the trail, too. And just, like, hopped on in. Got it. Like a Congo line of wagons. Oh, lovely. Yeah. And, you know, it was made up of families, but it was also made up of teamsters who were the guys who would drive your wagons.

So they were hired help to do that. So they got paid? Mm-hmm. Yep. Which is also you have to add that cost to everything. So much money. Cooks and just various single men looking for a way out west. Oh, really? Uh-huh. Well, yeah. Have some fun on the road? That's right. Heading to California. California dream. Yeah, I said it. Oh, I wrote, it's crazy to think how big this party started out and it's just people with literally everything they own.

There's a woman named Sarah Graves who just married a guy named Jay Fostick, and we'll revisit them later. But she looks at this whole journey as her honeymoon. That is bleak. That is bleak. Yikes. I wonder what people used to do for their honeymoons.

Like go to the river? Yeah. Yeah. Like that's it. But did honeymoons, like I guess they did exist because she was like, I'm going on the Oregon Trail. History of honeymoons? Oh my God. We should have done that for Valentine's Day. Fuck. Go listen to our Valentine's Day bonus episode. Always promoting, always plugging. Always. So on June 27, just one week behind schedule, the Donner Party reached, well, one week behind, they're two weeks behind. The Donner Party reached Fort...

Lorrainey, God, these names, an isolated trading post in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains.

There, Reed ran into an old friend from Illinois, which I think is so funny. An old friend from Illinois, a 54-year-old man named James Clyman. It's like, James? James. What the hell are you doing here? How do they know each other? They served in the Black Hawk War together. Is that a fake war? Please tell me. I've literally never heard of it before in my life.

Couldn't tell you when it was over. And he had just come east from California using Hastings Cut-Off that they're all using. He's like covered in gunk and like mud and stuff. And Reed is like, oh, you just came from Hastings' new shortcut? We're using that path too. And James Clyman is like, do not.

use this shortcut. Do not. He was like, I am telling you, I just got back with Lanceford Hastings, you know, the guy telling you to do that trail. Yeah, I did it. It's hard as hell. I did it on horseback with one other dude. You guys have like nine wagons and a ton of people. Do not. I have chills. I know. He said there's a maze of canyons. That's the Wasik Mountains. Then there's a horrific heat. That's the Salt Lake Desert. Then you're going to get to Sierra Nevada. That's practically snow-covered cliffs. And Reed was like,

He didn't care? No, he was like, he said the quote, there's a Nair route and we might as well take it. Nair, I guess means shorter. So if I was climbing, truly, I'd be like your funeral. Yeah. And splash my whiskey around. Truly. It's like, I'm telling you right now. And you went with the fucking guy who? Yeah. He's like, he's from the source. I'm telling you, it's, it's terrible. Also, how the hell do you know how to follow a map?

I don't know. I know that people used to have to do this. I mean, I remember. Isn't it crazy? MapQuest. Hello. I know, but just like. And just, I remember being in the car, my mom pulling out a map, like why she's driving. Oh my God. Same. Like putting it up. Like texting and driving is dangerous. Try reading a map and driving. MapQuest. God bless you. Wherever you are. Hey, poor thing. Cyberspace. Thank you for all your work. Like I miss you guys. Yeah. Thank you for all your work. Truly.

Okay, so here's the thing. Even though they're a little behind right now, they're still on track to get to California by September. So why not just stay on the Oregon Trail path, right? Like why take the shortcut? Because even though you guys were behind, if you don't take a shortcut, you're still going to get there on time. But the thing was...

That they were getting really sick of each other already. Okay, guys, like, it's not easy, but... Like, I cannot take his whistling for five more minutes. You don't risk your life because it's getting a little tense up in there. It's crazy. So, and they were tired of being on the road, which I understand. Like, I do not get the allure of road trips. I don't like them. You don't like being in a car for more than 20 minutes? I get car sick so bad. Your energy changes so quickly? It does.

So I like deplete, like my skin turns gray. Truly you shut down. I leave my soul.

So I understand them at this moment. And they had been on the road since May. It was now July. They're 1,000 miles from Independence with more than 1,000 miles still to go. So they thought, all right, let's take this unproven shortcut that we've been warned is dangerous and let's shave off about 350 miles off this trip. The only person who objected was Tamsin Donner. I was going to say it's always the woman, isn't it? Literally. She was like...

Guys, it's really fucking stupid to follow a stranger through an area that we've already been told by someone we know and trust that it's impossible to get through. But she was a woman, so literally no one existed. Her intuition. Or no one listened. Yeah, her intuition. I feel like they were like, does anyone object? And she's like, I do. And they're like, anyone? Just push her in the mud. Is this all from the journal entries that they have? Yeah.

And like accounts. God, they were journaling. Yeah. I feel like what else was there to do back then? Yeah, that's so true. I guess maybe mental health might have been healthier in a way. Yeah, you're always expressing yourself. Wow, we could learn a thing or two. I've been trying to journal more, guys. We'll talk about that a different time. So while most of the wagons turned right on the Oregon trails, nine wagons turned left.

and towards Fort Bridger and the Hastings Cut-Off. And on that day, the party met to elect a captain. James Reed was the obvious choice, but his aristocratic manner and his wealth had rubbed too many families the wrong way, so they chose George Donner instead. Interesting. Yeah. They were like, he's rich, like a rich, pretentious asshole. We don't like him. But George Donner is like...

I don't know. He's like a chill girl. A man of the terrain. Yeah. Yeah. A man of the terrain. A man of the people. It was about the mountains. Exactly. So George, George Donner, it was, but also George Donner now I'm sure was like, please don't make me the captain of this experience. I don't want my name on this for the rest of time. Wow.

Hastings had like sent them a letter telling them like, okay, yes, this is what it was. They actually got more confident because on July 17th, they received an open letter from Lanceford Hastings himself addressed to all immigrants now on the road. And it urged them to press on, press on towards Fort Bridger where Hastings himself will be waiting to escort them over the new trail. So then they were all like, I know you guys have said it's dangerous, but he said he's going to be there with us. So it's going to be fine. Lying.

When they arrived at Fort Bridger, Hastings was nowhere to be found because he had already left with a different wagon train. But why would he? Why would he do everything that he's doing? So he's like not a good person. No, he's the worst. Like a narcissist who wanted the credit? He didn't care about anyone. Yeah, he wanted the credit and he wanted the empire out west. He's the Disney villain in this story. Eww. Claudia's the cruel. Always resorting back. Jesus. Yeah.

So when I tell you that I would be pissed, especially if I was Tamsin Donner, I'd be like, oh, where's your friend? And I'd be like, who do you trust? Who do you trust? Some stranger or your wife? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a different story too. Jesus. Okay. So he wasn't there. He had left with a different wagon train.

Furthermore, there was even more warnings against Hastings Trail. A journalist who had been riding with the wagons rode on horseback up the trail to check it out and sends a letter back to Fort Bridger being like, this is bad news bears. Do not go down this trail, especially with wagons, just like Kleiman had said. But listen up. This is so troubling. Fort Bridger was the last outpost before California.

And if the Hastings Trail became popular, then the guy who ran the trading post there would stand to make a lot of money. So he kept that letter to himself and contributed to the deaths of 46 people. That letter never made it to the Donner party because the outpost owner was like, if people stop coming here, I'm not going to make money. Yeah.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place.

You guys, they have everything. So from like the day you get engaged, you can start planning on Zola. You can find the venue there. You can create your save the dates. You can make your registry. You can make your wedding website. Even to the final stages of tasting your cake, Zola has everything.

everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan your

Plan your wedding from the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. Speechless. I'm truly speechless. It's horrible. Also, how do they know where to send mail to them if they're like constantly like on the road and mobile? Well, later, see, they literally like left some letters in like sagebrush. I'm like, hope someone finds it. Like, well, she is.

Like the workings of the world back then, I'll never understand it. You don't know like when Hastings wasn't there, they're not going to know. They can't send him a text. Are you? What the fuck are you? They'll probably, they never knew. They never knew. That's crazy. I mean, I even think it's crazy how back then we just had like voicemails. I mean, what a simpler time just to be like, hey, I'm going to this place. We want to come. You get such like instant gratification now. But back then you had to probably, you were left with tons of questions for like your entire life. Wow.

I don't like that. It's very unsettling. It's so unsettling. But that was their reality. So they, you know, they go for that shortcut and they keep going and things immediately go wrong on the shortcut for the Donner party. Two days out, a 13-year-old boy riding a horse was thrown off his horse when his horse stepped in a prairie dog hole. The boy landed on the ground on his leg, which broke, splitting the bone through his skin.

This is like a death sentence back then, honestly, because you're going to get like infection and then gangrene, whatever that is. And you're gone. And you're gone. So the party sent back for help at Fort Bridger and a man shows up with gear to amputate his leg. But just as the man was about to start the amputation, the parents stop it because the kid is freaking out so much, like obviously. And they were like, don't do it. Don't do it. We'll figure out his leg. And I...

And I actually don't know what happened to this boy because they never followed up with that. But I just thought that was a gross little... It's like, I died. I imagine like if they didn't amputate his leg, it was just all so crazy back then. Like the time, it wasn't even 200 years ago. And it's like, you have an injury like that. Now you go to the ER, you get it fixed up. And you have a crazy story. I was just chopping it off with a knife and then wrapping it and like... You had to have like a saw for the...

the skin and the meat and then like a saw for the bones. And like in that situation, I would imagine they didn't have, like they did have like things to knock people out back then, but not like if the guy, she's coming from Fort Bridger. So that's devastating and disgusting. Okay. So besides that, the first few days on a shortcut isn't terrible because Hastings has gone ahead with the other wagon train and left some indentions in the road that weren't there before. Cause that's also a thing you got to think about. There's no trail, right?

Oh, so it was helpful, actually. When he went before. That's like the one good thing that he did. But then the Donners found a note from Hastings stuck in some sagebrush, and the note said that the road up ahead was actually awful, so they should send a rider up ahead to Hastings so he could tell them about a route. This guy is like making it up. He's like a little leprechaun. Like, I just imagine him like going from bush to bush being like, find me here. Like...

And then also, yes. And yes. Wow. Fairy boy. He is. And like, oh, he's just fucking it up for everyone. He is. So the writer did find Hastings, but Hastings, Hastings refused to come back and like help them out. Instead, he climbs up to a high peak, high peak, pointed to a general direction and said that way would be theoretically better.

Just go home at this point. Like you're not helping anybody. That's what I'm saying. Go home. And also like the Donner party, like fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Claire just made that up. I did. Write that phrase down. Writing is just mostly phrases. Well, that path that Hastings said would be theoretically better turned out to be even worse. It took them 16 days to navigate the cliffs of the Washtauk. I think it's how you say it, Washtauk Mountains. It was supposed to take them a week and it took them 16 days.

All able-bodied men were required to clear brush, like chop down trees and have rocks and move rocks to make room for the wagons. And also moving all of these animals as well. Like it is, you're truly making a trail for wagons in the forest, essentially. Did women not have to do any of this manual labor? I don't think so. It's like literally the only upside.

Like, at least if you don't listen to me, I don't have to do anything. Probably try and take care of the kids, cooking. Oh, that's true. Keeping your two-story wagon tidy. I don't know. And I'm sure that some of them did get their hands dirty. So food and supplies begin to run out for some of the less affluent families.

But Reed had the audacity to name this trail after himself, which is now known as Reed's Gap. Why do you want this trail to be named after you? No kidding. I feel like everything back then, it's like pissing on everything. Like, it's mine now. That's all they had. But the worst of the shortcut was still to come. I feel like this whole story is like, but the worst is still to come. Literally, I'm like...

It's so bad. Okay, eventually they got through the Washtauk Mountains and back on Hastings' original trail where they found another note. But this note was barely readable. All they could make out was two days, two nights, hard driving, cross desert, reach water. That is so creepy. I also just cannot imagine them finding these notes. Like, how does the wind not blow the note away? I know, and how do you know to be looking for them? Like, it wasn't like it was a neon pink sticky note. Right.

It just also like think of how bored you must be all day. You're just sitting in a wagon. It's hot. Yeah, it gets real hot. Or cold. Or cold.

Which is worse? I think about this all the time. Especially when you're, it's not like, which is worse because you can have blankets and layer up. No, you're like exposed to the elements no matter what. Oh God, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that. So when they got over the next hill, they were faced with the great salt desert of Utah. And this place sounds like hell.

It's a dry lake with just like piles of salt everywhere. Like the natural salt, you know, the salt and sea that's in California. Piles of salt. It gets in your eyeballs. It gets in your mouth. And there's no drinkable water to drink. It would sting your eyes so bad. So bad. And then like once you're like, aha, then it gets in your mouth. It's so uncomfortable. And these people are like, still worth it. Crazy. There's no drinkable water. They tried to drink the water and it made them violently ill.

Too salty. Too salty and just like there's bacteria and stuff. There's also an episode of 1883, if you guys are watching, where the immigrants drink water and they're truly from the river and just truly lose their mind. And I thought about them when I had food poisoning in Costa Rica. Like it makes you crazy? It just like I think feels it's food poisoning essentially. Yeah. It's always tough. Do they not know to boil the water? No.

How did you, I don't think I would have known to boil the water. Oh, really? Are you a pioneer woman? Yes, I am. In another life, you feel connected? I think everything in life is just like, oh, if you boil that or like. It'll be fine. Or put a needle under like, or put a needle in a fire and then disinfects it. Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes. I did know that. Totally. You put a needle under it.

I was like, you're the pioneer woman. I don't know. I believe you. But yeah, there's no drinkable water. The high temp, I looked up the high temp at the Salt Lake Desert in August, which is when they were, the high temperature was 104 degrees. That's like the average high. So it, and you're just sitting there in the sun boiling. And you're not like shorts worn to think about that. No, they sure were not. These women had like long dresses on.

I'm hot thinking about it. It was supposed to be a 40-mile stretch and only take five days. Instead, it was closer to a 100-mile stretch and took over two weeks.

I would be like, guys, clearly we're not doing something right. How did they not die of dehydration? I think some people were starting to... Fade. People were starting to fade. People along the way, and I, you know, I have to, we only have so much time, but like some people were dying of illnesses on the way. So everyone's dropping off. People are starting to drop. Lots of the oxen and cattle died from thirst, which is so much sadder than the people...

Sorry to be insensitive. But they just don't understand. They don't understand. That's why it's so much more sad to me. Oh, God. And they didn't choose this life. I'm going to cry. No. Some of the oxen, so some of them died from thirst, while others literally bolted off looking for water. They're like, I've had a lot. Every oxen for his own. Yeah, true.

They're like, guys, I'm bolting out of here. I can't deal with this anymore. I don't know why. Because it's devastating. So they would bolt out and be like, peace. And then would go look for water, the ox, which like sucks because you're like, now what is going to pull my wagon? This is what I remember of Oregon Trail that I'm just remembering of when the animals Your ox has ghosted you. Yeah, when they just are like, well, we lost one. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

And you had a plan for that. Yeah. Which is crazy. And they had to abandon some wagons, Reed's palace wagon being among them. Which I bet all of them were like, yeah. Yeah. They're like, yeah, you little rich asshole. Yeah. Must be nice. Serves you right. Yeah. Leave me behind. Goodbye. So the Donner party spent their time in the desert, terrified, miserable, and near death.

This is so disgusting. By all accounts, everyone was caked in urine and feces while women stank of stale menstrual blood and yeast infections. Their faces were burnt red and their lips were split and bleeding. Oh, and then the salts getting into that. I feel sick. I feel sick.

Same. That's why I was like, I felt ill doing some of my research. So welcome to the party, everyone. Oh my God. The Donner party. Infections and menstrual blood. Well, you think about it, like you're just on your period. I mean, you're out there. This took over a year and that doesn't stop for anything. What did they use at this time for like pads? Cloths. Cloths. Just like, and they belt it kind of around you. Yeah, that's

The smell and the heat is tough to imagine. It's the worst, worst thing. I just think about my lips. Like, I have to have chapstick on me at all times. My lips are so chapped right now. I can't imagine. It's probably the hangover, too. It is, I think.

Okay, so by the time they finally got back onto the established trail since leaving for Hastings Trail, it had been 68 days. Those who stayed on the tried and true Oregon Trail had reached the same point in 37 days. So it took them double the time on that shortcut.

The shortcut, instead of being 350 miles shorter, was actually 125 miles longer. It makes me want to punch myself in the face. There is a lesson in this, isn't it? There is. There's something there. Like, don't just fall for like...

I don't know, a popular idea because it's new and cool. Yeah. The original train that they had been a part of at the very beginning of the Oregon Trail had passed this point that they just made it to a month earlier. The anger. The anger. Oh, God. And if I was Tamsin Donner, I think I told you. I'm divorcing you. So don't even look at me. Don't try to kiss me in my chapped lips. Yeah, no. So needless to say, people were pissed, especially at James Reed, who kept gunning for that shortcut.

Tempers are running high, and it all came to a head when a teamster for the Graves family, one of the families, John Snyder, got his wagon taggled with the Reed's family wagon. And John Snyder began beating the oxen with the butt of his bullwhip, and James Reed hurried over to stop it because he was like, do not touch my oxen. But that only enraged Snyder further, who struck him savagely in the head with his whip and

And when I was reading that, I was trying to decide. I think that meant that he accidentally or not only was accident like hit Reed with his whip. So Reed completely lost his shit.

drew a knife and stabbed Snyder. Some say in the chest and some say in the neck. And Snyder staggered a few yards up the hill and bled out on the trail. You're starting to lose your goddamn mind. I mean, tempers are just truly running high. Yeah. And so where we are on this journey, there's no established law because it hasn't been settled yet, which is also crazy to think about. You can do whatever you fucking want.

Well, then the party is like, we have to take matters into our own hands and decide what we're going to do with this murder. Which is also like, I just, I'm hungry, hangry. I know. So, Tamsin Donner says in one of her entries, Mr. Reed and his family were taken to their tent and guarded by their friends. An assembly was convened to decide what should be done. The majority declared the deed murder and demanded retribution. Okay.

So they had to like take Madison to own him, which is crazy that Reed and his family, who was like the leader, had to be taken and like kind of protected by his friends because John Snyder, the guy that they killed, everyone loved him also. Well, yeah. So then how do you continue on? Well, a lot of people wanted to hang him. And also, which is this kind of fucked up, but like on the last podcast on the left, they talked about it. It's like that also would have been entertainment for them at that time. And like they were so bored, which is

Crazy that there used to be like public hangings and stuff. That's a whole other thing. Which trials? Full circle. Yeah, exactly. Go back and listen. But cool heads prevailed and they decided Reed should be banished from the group with only his horse, which is basically a death sentence. I would be like, honestly, let's just end this. I beg hang me. Yeah. Cause like you're just alone. Yeah.

With your horse? That is worse punishment. Yeah, it's terrible. His daughter actually snuck away that night and gave him a couple of guns and crackers. But like how much is a cracker going to do for you? Guns. Oh, yeah. So I forgot they had guns. Everyone had guns back there. And then hunting and all that stuff, too. I was going to say they were eating. They had also like brought cattle to eat, like to be slaughtered down the road. I know this episode will make you become a vegetarian for more reasons than one.

There it is. And there it is. So he gone. A lot. Oh, let's see. Now that Reid was gone, they were left with no leadership and the party kind of begins to break down.

And this is like a sad story. This guy named Louis Kesseberg, which we'll get to him later. He turned down an aging Belgian immigrant named Hardcoop out of his wagon and no one else would take him in. And the old man just like tried to keep up walking with everyone. And he was so old and he literally just sat down.

down because he was old and exhausted and dehydrated. And there were some horsemen that were like kind of falling behind and they came up to like the donners and stuff later and they're like, you guys have to take him in. And they were like, what are we supposed to do? We barely have food for ourselves and he's going to slow us down. And we feed him. He dies two days later. So he was just left there. It was grueling. It's so sad, but it's also like...

you probably don't have any space emotionally or physically. No. For strangers. I get it. It's so sad, though, that he was alone and, like, that's the way he had to go. That's so sad.

On October 19th, their food was nearly all gone. And when a man they had sent ahead for food or head for help finally returned from Sutter's Fort with seven mules loaded with food and two Native American guides, Salvador and Louie, I think it might be Louis, L-U-I-S. The immigrants hope roses. So the party are like, okay, we have people who know the lands. They're going to help us out. And now we have a little bit more food.

Meanwhile, all this is happening. James Reed actually makes it to California when he's alone on horseback. Emanciated, or yeah, not emanciated. His parents were like, you no longer belong to us. Emanciated, exhausted.

So crazy that he made it. How? I don't know. I think that he ended up hunting a little bit, but like he was not well, bitch, when he made it. I bet not. No, but he knew his party wasn't doing well, but he also knew that if they got caught in the snow on the other side of the Sierra Nevadas, he thought that they had enough livestock to hold them over till the spring. But what he didn't know is that the Donner party had lost virtually all of their livestock.

And he still wanted to take a few men through the mountains to go get them and help them out. But he was just informed that the Mexican-American War had just begun over Texas. And there were no men left at the fort to go back with him anyways. So he signed up for service for the war. He was like, anything's better than being with those people. With those people. They're so annoying. And they banished me. Which felt guilt. I would assume so. Yeah.

Because it's also like he left his, well, not left. He was banished from his wife and four kids. That's devastating. So meanwhile, the Donner party arrives at what we know as Reno, Nevada. And it's been a long, hard journey, but they had one more obstacle to go. The hardest one. Gambling. Yeah, they're like, we're going to smoke cigarettes inside and start gambling at 8 a.m. I wish that's what their fate, what it could have been.

So their last hardest obstacle was the Sierra Nevada mountains. It was October, which was usually fine, but they woke up one morning and saw snow had already began to fall on the mountain peaks and they were like,

A month earlier than usual, actually, too. It's like the Titanic. That so much stuff just went wrong that didn't have to. I've been thinking about that the whole time. Yes. And I've been meaning to bring it up earlier. It's fine. It's fine. It's like it just happened to be like a month earlier with snow. And like you guys just happen to make bad decisions. Yeah. And like the icebergs. Like it's usually not like that. Yeah. Like until like two months later. Exactly. Exactly. This is terrible. Okay. So...

So an advanced party tried to make it through the pass, but a sudden storm came on their way and buried them in snow up to their oxen's chest, and they could go no further. They tried to go the next day, but it was just too late. They had missed their shot to start crossing by two days. Two days. Two days.

They had no choice but to turn back and to turn back to kind of camp for a while because they knew that more snow is coming. And there on the shores of what became known as Donner Lake, they go into one of the darkest chapters of American history. The cannibalism is about to begin, guys. Because the snowfall. Because the snowfall. So hungry. They're already hungry. And I'm sure they were like, wow, I am so glad for that winter breeze after that desert. But they had no idea what was coming.

So we have to talk about this winter that they got trapped in. This is recorded as one of the coldest winters ever in the entire Western Hemisphere. This winter that they're about to have to go through. How cold? It's the Columbia River, I think is what it's called in Oregon. Completely, all of the river completely froze.

For a river to freeze like that, it's like the whole river is so crazy cold. Like negative degree? Oh, way negative degree. Like the coldest winter in Western Hemisphere, in the entire Western Hemisphere. That is terrifying. Oh, God. How do you even live more than a day? I don't know how they did this. I just, I'm just. I'm actually surprised that they've all made it this far. I know. Me too. I'm like, I guess it's just like we don't.

Like, they didn't have what we have, so this is just their life, and they just served their survivors. I'm a survivor. They endured no less than 10 blizzards in the five months that they were just outside of the Sierra Nevadas. Snowfall that went up to 20 feet. Now, they had to make shelter during all this. The Greens, the larger family, happened upon an abandoned cabin, so they got lucky with that. The other families had to build their own cabins. One family squeezed 16 people into a structure they built into the site of a large rock.

I don't even know how you would begin to do that. And also, like, you know, the ventilation is not good with that rock as your wall. Oh, no, it's not good. Three quarters of the party were at Trucker Lake. I think it's Truckee, but I accidentally put Trucker Lake, which is now known as Donner Lake. But the other quarter of them were about five miles away. And that's where the Donner party stayed. And they suffered perhaps more than any family. Yeah.

George Donner had cut his hand trying to fix his wagon and had to deal with gangrene, gangrene, limp the entire time they were in the wilderness. And they couldn't get it together to build a snow cabin or to build a cabin. So they had to make tents. So they're literally in like 20 feet of snow and tents. So that's why I don't camp, guys. Yes, truly. But the single men who were the hired helper kind of just left to their own devices and exposed to the cold.

They had hardly any livestock for food. Any livestock they did have were starving. And about half of the party, the Donner party, were kids. There was more kids, really, than there was adults, which is also like you have to care for them. No, thank you. Can't imagine. And then on Thanksgiving Day, they killed their last oxen for food. So then they can't move the wagon? Well, they can't even go anywhere because there's so much snow. Oh, that's true. So they're just stuck. But even like when...

All the snow melts. I don't know what they were planning on doing. Right.

Crazy. So now it's mid, oh, well also, so oxen horse bones were boiled repeatedly to make soup. They became so brittle, they would crumble upon chewing. Sometimes they, like the Murphy children were reported to pick apart the ox hide rug that lay in front of the fireplace, roasted it in the fire and ate it. So they were eating rug. They were eating like leather. They would boil like leather straps. They ate boiled twigs and bark leaves and mice.

News came that Jacob Donner and three hired men had died. So now it's mid-December and we are so hungry and this dude named Franklin Graves decides to take charge.

He fashioned snowshoes from Oxbows and Rawhide and led 15 of the strongest immigrants, five women, nine men, and a boy of 12 to try to get them out of there with those two Native American, Louie and... How did they get to the snow? Well, they were like, we have snowshoes and we're just going to try to walk. And like carry people? Well, it's just 16 of them and they were going to go get help.

So they all had snowshoes. Yeah, exactly. They took six days starvation rations apiece. So basically, this is basically starving, the amount of food that we're taking, but it will last us for six days. They called themselves the Forlorn Hope Foundation.

Which is not a promising name. Tess is having a panic attack. We haven't even got to cannibalism. I'm thinking about how hungry, I'm like hungry now. I know. Imagine six days. I get so hangry. Me too. Like I would not. I think I'd be like, I'm going to stay. I say, they thought it would take six days. They were stranded for a month.

It took two grueling days to scale the summit. So that's the thing. They're also like climbing mountains. They're not just like going on a walk, like a stroll. Once over the pass, the sun began to blind them because it was reflecting off of the snow. Everything is like, God, this just keeps getting worse. That's why I have the bonnet. That's why you have the bonnet. Not just for fashion, ladies. Not just for fashion. On the sixth day, their food ran out. One of the people who was there was a woman.

One of the dudes, Charles Stanton, who was one of the leaders of this mission, was too blind and weak to carry on. He urged his exhausted friends to go on without him. He was last seen sitting in the snow, calmly smoking his pipe. He's like, well, hey, what a way to go. Yeah. What a way to go. They still had like tobacco.

I mean, if one thing that gets with it. Isn't that an appetite suppressor? I guess that's true. If anything were to help. It would be that. So they're truly just walking around experiencing snow blindness, which can also make you nauseous and give you headaches and eventually actually make you blind.

Oh, my God. Horrible. I mean, I know when I walk out in snow, I'm just like, when I'm in Oregon, it's like, oh, my God. I don't like the light. Like on that episode of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, that morning light in the snow, I don't like it. You don't? No. It's just like upsetting to me. Just blinding. I've never thought about it before. It's all I think about. Jesus. So a few days later, they were caught in a blizzard and had great difficulty keeping a fire lit.

And there was this dude named Patrick Dolan who suggested that they draw names to see who should die because they were getting hungry. Yeah. They were like, this is our only resort. So Patrick was like, let's draw names and we will see. So a piece of paper was torn into strips and the men took turns drawing for their doom. And the unlucky soul who drew the long one was the man who had suggested it in the first place, Patrick Dolan.

He suggested it. That is kind of karma. He's like, actually, let's do it again. I think I messed up. Let's draw again. I think at that point, Kate just said, guys, we should all go together instead of killing each other. Well, they ended up deciding they couldn't kill someone and everyone was on the verge of dying anyway. So they were like, we'll just wait this out. We'll just wait for the first one to go. And the first one was a dude named Antonio. They didn't even realize he had died until his hand fell on the fire and he didn't do anything.

Franklin Graves was the next to die from the cold. As he was dying, he told his two daughters that were in the group that they should eat him to keep from dying. Then Patrick Dolan began to rant deliriously, stripped off his clothes, and ran into the woods. He returned shortly afterwards and died a few hours later. And now we know that's hyperthermia. Like something happens in your brain. And you feel hot. And you feel hot. So you take your clothes off, which is so scary that our body like tricks us in that way. Why do you think our bodies do that?

Do you think maybe it's like giving us one last bit of peace? Yeah, to not feel miserable? I don't know. Like doing anything to survive. Hypothermia is a really good way to go. Is it? You literally feel like at some point you stop feeling how cold you are or hot or whatever and you feel very peaceful. And it's like a very like slow, peaceful death. Hey, I hope they got that for those who died that way. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So also here's the thing about hunger. It's like it gets worse and worse and then your mind shuts off and it's like, all right, we're not eating anymore. And so it's almost like your hunger stops. But the minute that you put something in your mouth and eat it, it kicks into overdrive. So the 13 year old boy was so hungry. This is gross. He grabbed a live mouse and just started eating it.

As soon as he did that, he went crazy. He started grabbing people's arms and gnawing at them and yelling, give me my bone. A few hours later, he died. And this is when the cannibalism begins. They eat him. It was decided that there was no other choice. They began butchering the dead bodies, but they had to have a system because they wanted to make sure that they didn't eat any members of their own family. Oh my God. I can't believe people did this. I can't believe it.

So, and also apparently with cannibalism, people...

chop off digits and like heads and things that make it identified as a human body. So it's not so... Oh, so you're eating like a thigh instead of like a face? Or like a torso and like the insides. And also apparently I will say that the organs are the more meaty parts because they were also deteriorated like muscles and stuff. The only two who didn't participate in the cannibalism were the Native Americans because they're like, this is the most fucked up thing I've ever seen. I just think I'd be like...

I think I should go before eating another human. I can't. Is it worth it? But we don't know. Like, I guess we've just never been there. I don't know. I don't think we have. Thank God. I mean, I've been so hungry that I've like become a monster, but not in this way. I guess what it does to your psyche, you're no longer thinking rationally. You go into like pure trauma survival. Exactly. Exactly. And they said that everyone sat and ate, avoiding eye contact and sobbing from what they were doing. Like, so they're just eating, but they're like sobbing.

sobbing while they're doing it because that's you've been on the trail for months with this person. So you chop it off and then you light a fire? They had a fire going but it was also so cold that it was like even hard to get that going and then they would truly roast human flesh. Yeah and then the snow finally stops. This is gruesome. They cut long strips of flesh from the deceased and dried them out for their journey. And yeah like jerky.

Does the human body like react well to eating other humans? Like, does that actually give you like sustenance? And I mean, I think a lot of people would argue that we're not supposed to eat other animals. So I think in a way when you think about it, but when you think about it, we are just animals, but I mean, it's not okay. I'm not, but I don't know. I don't, I don't want to know. I don't want to know what it tastes like. I don't know what it smells like. I don't think it tastes good. Especially when everyone's starving and stuff and probably has diseases anyways. Yeah.

So in the end, they only had four days worth of human meat that could be used from the starved bodies. And there were still weeks left to go after the meat ran out, they began to eat their shoes. So now they're barefoot and walking through snow. And they're going through tough terrain. So it's like cutting their feet as well.

They discussed killing the Native... Some people discussed killing the Native Americans that were guiding them for food, and one of the guys actually warned the two men, and they quietly left that night. The Native Americans did? Yeah, they were like, goodbye. They're like,

this shit. Fuck you guys. We've been helping you out and now you're trying to murder us. What's even the point of traveling with other people at this point when you know that your time will come? I mean, James Reed made it by himself. So like, what is the point? So the rest of the group finally had some luck when they traveled below, below the snow line. They finally found a deer and I will, I don't go, we'll go into details, but I'll just say the people who killed them ate them like a literal, ate the deer like a literal monster, like in the most gruesome way you can imagine. And then they brought back another deer for the group and,

But when they returned, they had found the group was already eating Jay Fostick, who had died earlier. And his wife, Sarah, whose honeymoon it was. Yeah. So now her husband's gone. And they were literally like, she came back and was like, Jay died. And they didn't waste a beat. And they're like, can we eat him? And at this point, she was like, I don't want to see it. But like, what else am I going to do with him? And so she sat away from the group while they ate her husband and the deer.

Yeah. Why just have the deer? But hey, actually, no, I shouldn't even say that because who's to say our life is more important than a deer's life? Wow. Wow. Gorgeous. Humanitarianism. Is that what that is? I don't know anything. So now the party was down to seven, five women and two men. Jesus. Yep. They make it down the canyon, but since they've eaten their shoes, their feet were all cut up. They're about 20 miles from...

from, I think, where they need to go. And one of the dudes suggests murdering one of the women and tries to lure her out. And the other dude stopped it and was like, stop trying to kill people. 20 miles at this point, just fucking like you guys have already, you're surviving. Just, just go. Stop. Stop. Yeah, seriously. Just like go further. But I guess like they had a taste for it. And they liked it apparently. Yeah, apparently this one guy really liked it. Like, was he super into this? I guess so. This was his fetish. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

After several more days, 25 since they have left Truckee Lake, they came across Salvador and Louie. That's his name, the Native Americans who ran away. And it has been said, they said, William Foster said that they were already about to die. So that's why he ate them. But everyone else pretty much is like they knew the land and they knew how to live off of it. They definitely murdered them and ate them.

And they came across them. Wait, they... The group, the Forlorn Hope, murdered the Native Americans when they came back across them. Those poor guys are truly just like, fuck off. Not more than two days later, the group stumbled into a Native American settlement looking so deteriorated, deteriorated, deteriorated.

Sure. You got it, baby. That the kids of the tribe started screaming and running away when they saw them. I bet. Can you imagine what they looked like? They said they looked like bloody skeletons. Yeah. Because their feet are all cut up. They probably still, maybe they were tan from that desert trip. I'm sure you're fucking blistering all over your face. Terrifying. And they said that like at night they would like scream from hunger stuff. So they literally were like zombies walking into the camp.

The Native Americans took them in, gave them some like acorns and nuts, and they had their first night of warm sleep in months. Not knowing that in their pack, they literally had two Native Americans who were allied tribes that they had just killed. So it's not cool, guys, to say the least, obviously. Yeah.

So the next day they set out for Johnson Ranch, which is where they were heading for. They were super close, which I don't know. It's like stay there. See if you can stay there a little longer and like get some strength and warmth and all that stuff. But they I guess they had to get get there, though, because all the other people are still back at Truckee Lake.

They had set out for Johnson Ranch the next day. Johnson Ranch is where they were heading. It was the first settlement outside Sierra Nevada. They were shoeless, bleeding, and in some cases pretty much naked because their clothes had begun to rot from like getting wet and snowing and stuff. And they're still in the snow and pretty much naked. After two miles, six of them couldn't go on. So William Eddy, one of the guys, was the only one to make it to the cabin at Johnson Ranch. He finally fucking made it.

After being laid down, he was like, there's six other people needing help down the road. And they found those people by tracing William Eddy's bloody footprints all the way back to them. Out of 17 who had started off with a forlorn hope, only seven made it out alive. But this mission, yeah, the mission was supposed to take six months or six days and it took a month. They had, and so then they were like, there's all these people who need your help.

You have to go get them. And they had no idea what was waiting back for them at camp because the Donners were like, it's going to take you six days. We'll see you in six days. And it ended up taking them a month. Here we go. Dragging everyone into it. Yep. The rescue. On February 5th, the first relief party of seven men left Johnson's Ranch and the second relief party left two days later. And the head of the second relief party was none other than Mr. James Reed.

I have chills? Yeah, he was like, I'm back, bitch. Gotta go get my boys. Gotta go get my girl. Oh, his wife. His wife and their four kids. And he was the head of this, even though they banished him, he was like, I still gotta go back and save them. Do you think he was like, they're gonna be dead? I would assume so. But also he, I think, well, actually, I'll tell you. Actually, I think that he probably,

Probably was told, like, actually, we had no cattle or anything. We've been starving for months. And I'm sure he just felt extreme. I mean, it's kind of his fault that they're all in this place in the first place. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So, let's see. Okay, so...

On February 19th, the first party reached the lake, finding what appeared to be a deserted camp under almost 20 feet of snow. And they thought it was deserted until a ghostly figure of a woman appeared. And it is known that she said...

Are you men from heaven or California? I am getting that tattooed on my body. Same thing. Am I right? Am I right? Then they were like, okay, it's not deserted. 12 of the party members were dead and the 48 remaining, I can't believe that there's still 48 people remaining. It's wild that anyone did. Wild. Had gone crazy or were barely clinging to life.

However, the nightmare was by no means over. Not everyone could be taken out with the first rescue team or the second. And they couldn't bring any animals with food because it's just too treacherous of a drive. So they had to go in groups. And also, this journey took like two weeks to go get them. So it's not just like we'll be back in a few hours to get you guys. So they know that the first group is probably the only one that survives. Not quite. Right.

But it just would be such to be left behind. I don't know. And children? Children made up most of the party. So the first relief party soon left with 23 refugees. But during the party's travel back to Setter's Fort, two more children died. En route down the mountains, the first relief party, which had Margaret Reed and two of her children, not all four, but two of them, two of them were left back, which I can't believe. Like, how do you decide to leave your children? I don't know. That seems odd. But...

They met the second relief party coming the opposite way, and James Reed was reunited with his family after five months. But they were only reunited for like five minutes, and he's like, I got to go back and get our other two kids. Well, yeah. Crazy.

On March 1st, the Second Relief Party finally arrived at the lake, finding grisly evidence of cannibalism. They had also resorted to cannibalism. They also went over to where the Donner family was to find that the Donners had also resorted to cannibalism. They had eaten the corpse of Jacob Donner, and George wrote that he wept as he watched his children eat the flesh of his only sibling. It's like when you actually think about it, it is disgusting to,

James Reed went into the Murphy cabin where he saw gnawed human bone and clumps of human hair. Disgusting. On the floor, laying in the bed were weakened children under the care of their mom. They had eaten their father. Oh. Do you think the father was like, I'm going to... I think that he was like... He didn't survive. Yeah, I think so. I would guess. Eating your dad as a kid is just... That is a whole other...

sticks with you in a way that nothing else will. Okay, so March 3rd, Reed leaves the camp with 17 of the starving party members, but just two days later, they're caught in a blizzard, which is super annoying. He had to take more up the hill. There was two adults and the rest were children. One of the adults died. It's 14 children.

And they are stuck in this basically hole. And it's called the starvation camp. And it's actually seven-year-old Mary Donner who suggests to eat the two dead bodies. Because she had already eaten her uncle at this point. I liked it. So she was like, I've already done it before. Let's do it again. We've got to survive. Seven years old suggesting to eat the dead bodies.

So they do. And when the rescue team comes back to get the starving camp and they realize that all these kids had eaten the dead bodies, many of the rescuers were like, we got to leave them. That's terrifying. Yeah, because like once you start, they're zombies. Truly. And it's like, how are we going to bring these people back into society? Like imagine what they will be like for adults. That's true. But they ended up convincing them to rescue them. So they do that.

Okay, so the third relief party goes in. It gets more members. And George Donner and Tamsin is still left. She sends her three little girls without her because her husband has gangrene, you know. And she's like, she was actually doing like okay, all things considering. But she's like, I'm going to stay with my husband, send my daughters, and just come get us on the last relief party. So the fourth relief party is,

So they leave four people are the only people left. The fourth relief party shows up and there's only one person alive when they left four. And there was a dude named Louis Kesseberg, the one who left the old man on the trail. He was the only one alive.

Now, Tamsin Donner was doing pretty fine. So it's like, why is she dead? Like, I could see George Donner having infection. There was obvious signs of murder. And he admitted he was like, yeah, I ate them. I did. He actually he's so disgusting. He said that Tamsin Donner's flesh was the best flesh he has ever tasted.

Yeah. So he's like, I ate them, but I didn't murder them. It's like, sure, Jan. Sure. Oh, my God. And he also said that Tamsen's last wish was to bring this silver to her children. It's like, no, you're lying. You're going to steal. It's actually known that it said that Keesburg ate the most human flesh out of everyone at this surviving Donner party. It had been one year since leaving Illinois. It was supposed to take them four months.

but they all made it back. In conclusion, of the 87 men, women, children in the Donner Party, 46 survived, 41 died. Five women, 14 children, and 22 men died, counting the Native Americans, Luis and Salvador, who had risked their lives to save the immigrants.

Two-thirds of the women and children made it through. Two-thirds of the men perished. Of all the families, the Donners suffered the most. Of all four adults and four children died, I think, for Jacob Donner. All of the Reeds survived, literally thanks to the resourcefulness of their mom, because their dad left, and she kept them all together. So did all of the Breen's.

Most of the people actually did pretty well for themselves after they finally made it to California. Obviously, they had terrible, terrible PTSD, like the worst you could think of. James Reed and his family settled in San Jose and made money in real estate and gold and became one of the town's leading citizens. Margaret Reed's sick headaches disappeared and never returned.

The orphan Donner kids were all split up. And now Truckee Lake is known as Donner Lake. And that's the Donner party. You did better than I thought you were going to do. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's horrible, but you almost like, I was like the whole time you were...

saying all this, I saw like a movie. Yeah. But there hasn't been like a real big movie made. I looked on IMDb. There has been a movie, but like not like a big one. I think it's probably a hard thing to watch in a way. It's like, obviously like natural disaster movies are popular and murder, but it is something where it's just like,

You are slowly dying the entire time. Everything's getting worse and worse. Cannibalism is also tough to even like talk about or watch. Well, that's like this morning when I was like getting ready. I was like, is this okay for me to talk about? Because it is like it did happen. Also, this is such a disturbing detail, but I forgot to say it. And I just I know some of you thrive on this. At the starvation camp when all those kids ate it, this one girl, Sarah Keys, I think was her name, didn't realize it till later that she accidentally ate her mom.

How do you keep track? Like once like there's this. How do you keep track? I just don't understand how you how you go about living your new life, knowing what you had to deal with. Literally, like how are you just making money in San Jose? Selling real estate. It's just crazy. It's crazy. I'm really I really want to know y'all's reactions to this.

I was truly captivated. I literally just feel like I watched a movie. Like I saw it all. I saw it all too. In a way that I didn't want to. You just visual. Yeah. I mean, damn. What a fascinating, horrible, tragic. Horrible. And happens like literally not even that long ago. Still shocked that only half really died and half survived. Same. I'm like, you guys crushed it, honestly, in all things considering. That's crazy. Crazy. And it's just, and most of them were children. So it's like you have your whole life to deal with that trauma after. Yeah.

So the moral of the story is like, do you want it done fast or do you want it done right? And we could all learn a thing or two from the Donner party. Also like teamwork, not turning your back against your friends. The dream work. Yeah. It's, um, yeah, it's tough. Wow. And like, yeah. And also don't always take the shortcut because sometimes it might be more beneficial to. Yeah. I'll remember that. I'll remember that too. Cause I always want to take the shortcut. Yeah.

They make it not so hard. But whatever, you know. Damn. So that's your history lesson for your Monday. Well, I truly didn't know this. Me either. And now I want to forget it. And you did a great job. Thank you. Fascinating. Thank you. I can't wait for my next subject. We'll tease it later, but it's going to be light and we're going to boogie, woogie, woogie. We're going to boogie. When does this come out? What's the week after?

Oh, we haven't even gotten that far. No. Wow. I know. We're on the journey with you. That's right. So keep letting us know. Send us a DM of what you want to know about. Also, sign up. DM us your email if you would like to receive our newsletter that comes out every Thursday. We do a quick history lesson. We do updates and we do a list of our favorite things that week.

And you guys are our most favorite thing. You're at the top. And we love you. We love you so much. Keep in touch. We want to hear from you. We'll see you guys next Monday. See you next Monday. Bye. Bye. Woo. Woo.