Lisa Frank Wasn't Just Kittens & Rainbows
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Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. My name is Tess Palomo. And my name's Claire Donald. We are back in Spotify Studios. We are dressed 90s. Yes. Well, mine is more...

Mine's more of an homage to the color. Put your sunglasses on if you're watching on YouTube because I am wearing a neon green. It's cute. And the Vans are like 90s, early 2000s. It's kind of the jeans. And your hair too, I think. Also, oh, thank you. I was wearing my sister's puka shell necklace. It's authentic. I'll put it back on. Yes, it just keeps falling off, but I'll put it back on. I'm trying. Yeah, the authentic puka shell is really, I mean, I'm wearing like a little chunky. This is not authentic. This I think I got on Amazon. No, it's okay.

cute. I'm so sorry, but you know what thought I just had? What? Oh God. You know what the necklace reminded me of? Who? Tom Sandoval. Tom Sandoval. Tom Sandoval. I'm so

I'm so sorry. Oh my god, it really is. He is ruined. No, we have to reclaim these things. He's taken away white nail polish from us. He cannot take away beaded necklaces. Fuck him. Also, I bet he wasn't even cool in the 90s. He wasn't the cool kid at school, so stop pretending that you're like... You know what I mean? No, he is cosplay.

playing as a 15 year old girl and it's really troubling and we're not going to let him take this from us. It's disgusting. So I'm sorry to even take it there. No, it's okay. It's okay. But if you need some comfort, look on YouTube because I am wearing you guys a bedazzled Claire, Claire?

My what? Your gas. A Claire Bear shirt. A Care Bear. I'm going to get a shirt. Well, this episode is so chaotic already. Guys, this is already chaotic. I went to a Jesse McCartney. Speaking of like youth and nostalgia, I went to a Jesse McCartney concert last night and I had a few, my Bitcoin baby and I had a few shots. I'm just dying because no thought has been finished since this episode started.

I'm a little hungover. Claire is coming back from the strep throat. Y'all, I was down bad crying at the gym with strep throat. Guys, if you've had strep, you know. And thank God for Tess. She was like truly, okay, this necklace is not coming off. Just throw it. She took care of me because she's a strep queen and she knew like I was giving her my symptoms and she was like, yep, sounds like strep throat. I was like, give it two more days. The antibiotics will take it in 12 hours. Literally, she dropped things off at my door. Oh.

It was so sweet. You need a care package when you're sick. A Claire package when you're sick. Every time you say care, just say Claire now. Which that new Billie Eilish song came out and she was like, it's under Claire. Okay, it's the song Lunch and it is a sexy little song. Yeah, this is like...

I was surprised when I heard that because I was like, this is your summer, girlfriend. This is your summer. Mine or Billie's? Yours. Or both. Oh, thank you. Like Billie Eilish just mentioned you in a song. This is like a... And she was talking about me. It's like a very sexual time. It is a sexual time. Sorry, mom. I don't talk. Just, I mean, like spiritually. No, we were talking about that in the car, right? Yeah. Something is in the air and we likey. We likey. We likey what we see. Ever since Challengers came out, we are like, wow. You guys. Okay. Okay.

Go see Challengers. It was such, we haven't had a movie like that. That's just like so smart and metaphoric. It was perfect. It was for the girls and the gays. And that's what everything should be for. And that, from now on, from now on, that's what we need. If you want to boost the economy, go to the girls, go to the gays. And that's all. Done. It was like everything about it. We were talking about how there's not actually a sex scene, but it's the sexiest movie we've ever seen. And that is smart. That is smart.

smart. And that's like how it, you know, that's how it should be done. It was gorgeous. Oh yeah. It's been a great, um, great spring, great summer for us. Yeah, it has. And we're very excited to keep that going. We will be going on a little bit of a summer break. We're giving you guys plenty of a heads up. Yes. It's only like literally a couple of re-releases and then we'll be back. I'm going to the East coast. Yeah. She's traveling. She's traveling. She's going to prison. Um,

I'm so jealous that you're going to the East Coast this time of year, though. It's so magical. I'm so excited. We're going to go to New York for a couple days and then... Can you say what you're doing in New York? We're taking engagement photos in New York. She's engaged.

And I got one outfit so far. And it's so chic. I'm going to get a second one that's going to be like a little bit of a different vibe. But we're going to talk about it more in premium. Yes, that's right. And if you guys miss us over a very short summer break, you can get premium bonus episodes. We have two a month and all of our back catalog. And it is in our show notes.

Premium stuff on this episode actually right now kind of feels like a premium. I know. It's like a lot of unhinged thoughts. It's a lot of like personal stories and everything. So please, please sign up. I know. I kind of wish we were recording a premium episode because I feel like I just want to like gab, which is what we do anyways, but on premium. Well, we haven't seen each other for like five days. That's literally Tess and I were like, where are we going in the car? Because

it was taking us away. We'd never been for, and I was like, we're going to end up in Santa Barbara because we just haven't seen each other in five days. That's a long time for us. It's true. We had so much to catch up on, even though that we text every, every day, all day, 10 minutes. Yeah. God bless you can all thank you for putting up with both of us. Cause when you date Tess, you date me too. Of course, baby. And that's how he likes it. That's right. Um, so today kids, you know that we always listen. We always do. And surprisingly, we got multiple people that DM being like, are you guys going to cover Lisa Frank? And I was like,

I don't know. Like, I mean, you know, I'm a 90s baby. Claire is as well. We always honor that. But I was like, what is there really to her? Right. First, I went to Wikipedia. Nothing. Okay. It was literally like, this is her brand. This is how much money she made. This is blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. Then it was just searching, searching all over Google. And I was like, I can't find really much. And then I went to Reddit. Reddit.

And I found a response of someone being like, have you guys read this article about the darkness and the dark history of Lisa Frank? So that is why, Claire, I got every single piece of information from Jezebel. Oh, wow.

Jezebel. Jezebel. Which have you read Jezebel before? J-E-Z-E-B-E-L. I feel like I can see the banner in my head, but like I don't frequent her often. I don't either. And I was trying to think of what she would be in the family tree. And I'm almost like it's so like...

That I'm like, is she your long lost twin sister you never knew you had? Whoa. Whoa. And you're like, how is this even possible? I've gone my whole life without ever like meeting her. Like Annie and Hallie? It's like Annie and Hallie. Wow. Okay. Let's do it. Perhaps. Or it could be like a really distant cousin. Okay. Yeah.

I need to spend more time with her, too. Well, I've only done this one article, so I don't know yet. But, Grammys, if you have any idea, if you are a Jezebel fan, DM us right now at Right Answers Mostly and let us know. Please do. Is she your twin or is she your cousin? It's hard to say. But this story is kooky, you guys. So, yeah, my only source of Jezebel inside the rainbow gulag. What word is that? I don't know.

Rainbow gulag, right? It's like the, like. You're asking the wrong one. I think it's gulag. Gulag. Gulag. The technicolor rise and fall of Lisa Frank. Which also we have set the lighting in the studio to beat Lisa Frank vibes. Yes. We're doing green. We're doing purple. It's Barney. It's Claire Bear. It's everything. Love. So I'm going to start with a quote. Okay. And then I have a little surprise for all of us after the quote.

To her fans, Lisa Frank is almost as mythical a figure as her beloved unicorn. For women in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, Frank's name alone conjures up a specter of koala bears clinging to rainbow-flavored ice cream cones, neon tiger cubs frolicking with surfing penguins, and, of course, majestic unicorns prancing before a swirl of hearts and stars. But the company is now a shadow of what it once was, and its fall from grace, a story of scandal, greed, and abuse, is in stark contrast to its shiny, happy aesthetic.

Honestly, this is a perfect subject for you. I feel like this is like your bread and butter. It's 90s. It's a crazy woman. It's like a fall from grace. I really did connect with it. Yes, yes. So that's a little preview of what we're going to be talking about. But to start, we have a quiz because you guys know I love a little quiz, especially when it's nostalgic. I love it too. So we're keeping it specific. We are doing how much of a 90s school kid were you?

Not a 90s kid. We're talking in the classroom. School kid. School kid. So get your backpacks and what you were a roller backpack kid. Yeah, I didn't think we were going to do that. I'm so sorry for bringing it up. Look, it helps your back so much. Your back. So I wasn't rolly backpack until like fifth grade. And then fifth to eighth grade, I had a rolly backpack. Okay.

So it's about later in life for you. Which is even tougher in a way. And then in college, I still kept it in my dad's house in the basement. And then I would fill it up with... Remember when I had parties? When I was telling you I had parties? But I wouldn't want to bring the alcohol bottles up to the recycling. So they accumulated in there. And then my housekeeper found a...

What's the brand of the backpacks? Janskin? Jansworld? Jansport? Jansport. I think so. Just filled with tequila and vodka and whiskey fifths. And that must have been shocking for her to see. But she ratted you out. And she ratted me out. Gladys, if you're listening. Gladys, you bitch. I've never forgotten that. Okay. You were doing your best, Gladys. We appreciate that. No, no. I really appreciate all your work. But that was embarrassing for me. And it had its consequences.

How much of a 90s school kid were you? Did you ever really backpack? No, you were too cool. No, I was definitely not too cool. But for middle school, the vibe for me was a messenger bag. I loved a messenger bag. That's so like before your time. Before my time. No, I remember my friend Emma got me a Vera Bradley bag.

monogrammed messenger bag and it was like this color green and blue and I literally had never felt so rich Emma thank you for that wow that is rich she's southern she's oh yeah Vera Bradley monogrammed oh yeah and then this other one will look like looked like it would be an indie movie it was like brown and like gold it was ugly oh but still I mean cooler than a really backpack I tell you not good for the shoulders it's just it was so nice having a but I didn't know that it wasn't cool and cool

And that's like a kind of a heartbreak. I was like, yeah. Well, you probably, you were definitely cool. You were on Teen Cribs. Come on. Which is also on premium. If you guys didn't know, Tess was on Teen Cribs. I'm not even joking. And it's on premium. It's true. I mean, I was, I was cool. And I was cool in middle school because there was 16 kids in my grade. Okay. Well, hey. So. The odds were in your favor. Okay. So time for a quiz, kids. We're ready. To start, number one, did you have Lisa Frank folders? Yes.

I'm trying to remember if I did actually have them. I was always in awe of them, but I don't know if I actually had them myself. I honestly think I may have had like knockoffs or a different brand. I can't remember. Were they kind of expensive? I think they were expensive and like...

My parents were hippies. Like, we weren't really... Yeah, that's not your vibe. Like, they never really tried to get us, like, the trendy stuff. Yeah. I can't remember. I know Lisa Frank was always in my world, but I can't remember if I personally had one. I think maybe. We'll say...

We'll say we did for the sake of the episode. Yeah, because we wish we did. Maybe at one point we did. Maybe for like a present. Yes. We got one. Yeah. Okay. Did you have erasers shaped as different foods? Okay. No. I did like flowers. Maybe I did. I don't know.

It's hard to go back. It's hard to remember. It's been so long. Or let's say damn those sweet memories. Damn those sweet memories, as Jesse McCartney would say. We can also say like shaped as stars or hearts. Yes, that I definitely did. So both of us, we're two for two. Yeah. We're two for two. Did you have fruit roll-ups packed as a mid-afternoon snack? Baby, mid-morning, mid-afternoon, midnight. Like I was just telling Tess, I was obsessed.

obsessed and my family who's listening will think this is funny I was obsessed with fruit roll-ups that my grandma got me a big Sam's container we had Sam's instead of Costco for my birthday of fruit roll-ups because I was obsessed and we were dying in the car thinking about just like how gross and unhygienic fruit roll-ups were because it's like before you knew how to like you should like wash your hands before you just like put them all over your finger wrap it around your finger and make it look like a little witch finger and then you eat it oh I can taste them now I want a fruit

a fruit roll up. Do you remember when Jennifer Garner does that in 30 going on 30 during her meeting? It's so iconic. And then she's like, it's hot. It is hot. And I'm not talking fruit by the foot. I'm talking fruit roll up. No, no. We're yeah. We're keeping it specific. Yeah. Okay. So I was a no, but Claire was a yes. Yes. Yes. Enough of the both. Okay. So you're three for three, Claire, right? Yeah. Did you feel like you were somewhat high when you went under a gym, a giant gym parachute? Oh,

No drug can have that high again. Exactly. It was like anything could happen in there. It was magic there. It gave you butterflies in your... Oh, God. This episode's going to make me so sad. I know. I'm going to be depressed when I get home. I know. Same. Would you write your crush's name while daydreaming with a gel pen? Yes. Oh, the gel pens. Oh. I know. And I can speak for the both of us. We were boy crazy. Boy crazy. From the start. And it's like, is that...

We can dissect that later. On premium, we'll dissect your childhood trauma, as we often do.

As we often do. Would you use a snap bracelet to get attention in class? Oh, my sister had a zebra snap bracelet. I did too. Oh my God. I had a furry one. Oh my God. Oh God, I love a snap bracelet. I almost literally made my mom get into a car accident when I once was doing it in the back seat and the windows open and it flew out of the window and she said I let out a scream that she was like she just got shot. Like someone like shot her through the window. I can see.

And we went back to look for it all around. I still remember like crying, being like, where did it go? That's love. And we had to say, if you love something, set it free. Yeah. We should bring back snap bracelets though. Oh, so fun. You'd avoid using the classroom pencil sharpener if the class was silent because it was too embarrassing. Oh, no, I live for the attention. Not the time. I would weirdly. Oh,

Oh, really? Yeah. I was like, I don't want to like disrupt in that way. Oh, I, again, probably like had a crush on a boy and was like, now's the time. Well, that was if you felt cute that day, like you could like walk up and be like, I'm wearing like a cute little outfit. But not only that pencil sharpener, there was also the mechanical, if you're watching on YouTube, wind it up. We are ancient. I know. Ancient. God. And then finally, during math class, would you type out boobies on your calculator? Yeah.

I remember that trick being out there. But I was like, it's kind of hard. I was like, how do you do it? Like, people would explain it to me, then I wasn't able to, and then I'd feel dumb. Same. I never remembered. Exactly. And then people were like, it's so easy. And then the shame. Oh, God. Those fucking Texas calculators. And then teachers would be like, you're not going to have a calculator in your pocket. Really? Really? Look at him. Where are we now? Thanks. My calculator. Thanks, Uncle Steve. Yeah. Uncle Steve. In case you didn't know. Okay, Claire. So I think you are...

Okay, so guys, everyone grade yourself. If you scored one to three, are you Gen Z? Get out of here. Oh, get out of here. Get out of here. But we do love you. Thank you for your service. But we love you so much. You guys really help the podcast in every way. If you scored three to five, you're teetering on a fine line. But don't worry, you're still...

Saved by the bell. Ooh, that was a before school getting ready show. Exactly. And then if you scored five to eight, I said, grab a Capri Sun and wait for that internet to dial up because you are a true kid of the 90s. And when you're done with the Capri Sun, make your cell phone. I know. I know. It's going to be a tough episode to get through. I'm going to cry. It really is. Okay. So yeah, we scored five through eight. Hopefully everyone had fun playing.

share with your friends because it's just so nostalgic. It is. It's the best. Back to why we're here. Yeah. So who is Lisa and what is her backstory? Okay. Go ahead. Do you – she was born in 1955. Okay. Can you guess her sign? I feel like I'm going to guess something that it might be off. Just say it. Aquarius? No. Okay. It's close to you. Oh, it's close to me. It's either a Leo or a Libra. No, it's very close to you. A Virgo. A Virgo.

She's a Taurus.

I was going on like the other side. She's a tourist. Okay, luxury though. Luxury and she was 90s girls luxury. It actually makes so much sense because rich and creative. Okay, I'm sorry. I just didn't know enough about her yet. It's okay. I didn't know it. I was like, why are we even here? But the story is going to be interesting. Okay, God. I just missed the high of when you guessed Claire Bowes. No, I know. I should have given you a better hint. No.

Okay. So she was born April 21st, 1955 in Bloomfield Hills, which is a city just north of Detroit that's ranked in the top five wealthiest city in America with a population under 10,000. What? So like a small, rich suburb I'm imagining with like gorgeous houses. Like the richest. The richest. Bloomfield? Bloomfield Hills. That's where it's always sounds rich. The hills. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Her father was in the car industry. He ran a Detroit aluminum and brass, a publicly traded company founded by her grandfather and his brothers in 1925. Rich bitch. Rich bitch. Yeah.

And Lisa's life, by all accounts, growing up was a happy and comfortable one. She said, quote,

I think to keep me quiet, they would bring out the coloring books and crayons and I would fill up the books. I was a total girly girl. I was not a jock. When I was 12, my parents got me a loom. So I was a weaver. Oh, wow.

Oh, like the basket thing? That's what that is, right? Oh, I love doing that in art class. Oh, God, so 90s. I felt like of the earth when I did that, you know? You were like, I am mama. Yes, I am mother earth. I am mama. So she loved to read. She loved to do artwork. And she just said she loved to do anything girly. Love. And you know, like a lot of stories when we're like, oh, they like tried to like make girls

her girly girl like she was a tomboy but they were like you need to get more feminine she just like loved her femininity yeah she was born into it she was born into it um so she attended the same elite prep school as mitt and ann romney oh really i just always associate him with utah but i guess that's not where that's where he went where the mormons were i know that's where he he flocked yeah

And she began painting there. At an art show her senior year, she managed to earn $3,000, which in the early 70s, which would be $24,000 today, selling her work. In college? Uh-huh. This was in her senior year of high school. What? Mm-hmm. Even just like to sell. I mean, she's talented. She's talented. She is talented. She is. For an artist to sell work at all. It's crazy.

Literally crazy. And one of her buyers was the former CEO of Chrysler. Oh, my God. Like the car? Uh-huh. Do you think that... Well... Not to diminish her talent. I think there's... Look, with any rich kid, there's going to be more opportunities. They're going to be...

more connections, more networking. So it's like you're just put in a room with people that have money. To spend. To spend. Right. Okay, so college. She weirdly went to, I mean, no, like, shame, but I was like, she went to University of Arizona. Oh, party school. Party school. We have some University of Arizona listeners. Which we love. I just kind of picture her going to the East Coast or like...

She wanted to go west. She wanted to go west. And this is where she would purchase handmade pottery and jewelry from local indigenous people in their communities and then sell them at a markup price back in Michigan. Lisa. Lisa. I was like, okay. Just typing this out like, got it. Lisa did so well that she eventually started directing the artists on what kind of jewelry to make. So she'd be like, this is what I need from you.

I'm going to go sell this back home. And I'm not going to give you a percentage? You know, didn't say in this article. We can guess. We can guess that she was using these communities as many white folks do. Yeah. We're a history podcast. We've seen this story before. We have. And unfortunately, we will see it again. So this is when she was like, you know what? I'm into making my own original designs.

So by the time she was 20, she created a plastic jewelry line called Sticky Fingers. Sticky Fingers. Sticky Fingers, just like with Fruit Roll-Ups. Fruit Roll-Ups. It all goes back to Sticky Fingers. That got picked up by Neiman Marcus and Bloomingdale's. What? The collection then inspired her to do stickers and buttons and starting to get a little crafty. Oh.

And this is when she was like, isn't it so fun? She was like, so I got the rights to Betty Boop and Popeye and Mighty Mouse. And she was like, it would just be so fun to have like Betty Boop just like become a unicorn. Okay. She on drugs. I, Claire, I literally in my notes right now said she was hot as fuck.

She's like, what if Betty Boop is just a unicorn? Allegedly. Yeah, right. Allegedly. But like one would think that you were... I mean, looking at Lisa Frank's art, it's like we're doing little shrooms where, you know... It's just a magical forest of colors and stars and weird shit going on. Love. But yeah, so maybe she was partaking and maybe she wasn't. But this is the start of Lisa Frank Inc.,

The start of Lisa Frank Inc. was betting poop as a unicorn. Truly. Find a girl who can do it all. No kidding. And so in 1979, she renamed her company Lisa Frank Inc. And that same year, she received her first million dollar order from Spencer Gifts. Spencer as in the store in the mall that you were scared to go to? Yes. I was always so scared to go to Spencer's. Spencer's had like... Sex toys. Sex toys.

Really? Oh, yeah. It's like the further back you went, it had like, I mean, I'm pretty sure. But it wasn't just sex toys. No, but I think it was all like naughty stuff. Interesting. I think. I mean, Spencer's, there is like a really weird like, to Lisa Frank, it's like very like goofy and young. And then there's also something kind of like, I mean, even like Betty Boop is like a sexual figure. Yeah, she is. Spencer's and Hot Topic were always the stores I was scared to like even walk past.

I was like such a sheltered kid from Arkansas. Well, going into Hot Topic, you're like, these kids are going to like me because they were all like the punk and like goth kids. Yeah, I didn't even go into Hot Topic. I would sometimes go in Ohio. Ella Liam Greer, thinking of you guys. Shout out. Shout out to my Midwest cuties. Okay, so she's 25 years old. She just gets – 25. She's 25 and she gets million dollar orders. So she's like, I'm doing pretty well.

And interestingly enough, she's like getting like people are like, ooh, like who's this crazy chick on the town? It's like wild artist. She's only had two interviews in her life where she has shown her face because immediately she was like, I'm happy to be doing this. I don't want to be photographed.

I don't want to really be recorded and I don't want to be recognized. She's like, Banksy, that's what it's called, right? There's like a rainbow leopard that pops up on a building. Literally, I watched the documentary, interesting, about Banksy. I've never seen anything about it. I was like, cool. It's cool. We're such art girlies. Yeah, we're just like, this is all about the art. She said that she really understood Michael Jackson and his experience with fame and that she related to him.

Which is a story for another time, but you can kind of see that she's a little... Kooky. Kooky. Sounds like my type of woman. I mean, which we do love, but it's also like, why are you relating yourself to Michael Jackson? Of all people? Sweetheart. Sweetheart. So she was like, yeah, like if I, you know, like when I was starting to get like a little bit more famous, if I went to a grocery store and like handed them my credit card, they'd be like, oh my God, I know that Lisa Frank who does like the crazy like cartoons and stuff. And she'd be like, oh yeah, I've heard about her. Okay. Yeah.

Lisa. I'm also like, you're not like... You're not Britney Spears. Like how... Come on. Come on, babe. But hey, we love that energy. I think she might have been feeling herself a little more than... I think she was feeling herself and I also think she was very paranoid and she was very insecure and did not want to...

have people like dissecting her or judging her or observing her too much also like even if i saw someone's credit card today that said lisa frank i'd be like oh funny lisa frank i wouldn't be like yeah i wouldn't be like starstruck yeah i wouldn't be like are you the lisa frank i mean maybe after this episode i would be that's true but so her employees first remarks about her in interviews tell me it's like what was lisa like it was always about her physical appearance first

She was very beauty-focused. She was obsessed with body image. She was quite thin. Kyle, who worked in the creative department for two years, described Lisa as a very passionate lady, although a little manic and not always there. Huh? Well...

I love that. We do. She's a Taurus after all. It's true. God bless us. Another employee said she kind of looks like one of her characters. Very over the top and very colorful with big hair and really big eyes. What does she look like? She looks like...

Like, how would you describe her? There's, like, a couple photos of her. But... Let's see. That's crazy that, like, still there's only a couple of photos of her. This is what she looks like. Let me see. Oh. Oh, wow. You know...

If I may. Yes. Her face is kind of like a face like Jackie Kennedy. Yes. It's like a square sort of like. And like the eyes are kind of like far apart. She almost looks like like Terry Hatcher from Desperate Housewives. Totally. Terry Hatcher could play her. Yes. But with like a little bit more of that Kennedy jaw. Yes. And like Bethany Frankel's old jaw. Oh my God. I miss. I miss it. I'm watching season one of Real Housewives of New York right now. She's so beautiful in season one. I know. And she's so cool.

She's cool, but that Bethany is still there. Yeah, she's still there. Yeah. We'll talk because we could talk about that for hours. Yeah, no kidding. So I think people were just like, she's an odd duck. So what...

What was it like to work there? So for sales, Lisa Frank's line of products, which if you guys don't know, if you're not a kid in the 90s, whatever, it was like folders, pencil cases, erasers, notebooks. Stickers. Stickers. Coloring books. Yes. It just looked like a wild like blah. Yes. It was like a throw up of like sparkles and color and like weird animals doing weird shit. It was like a little girly girl's dream. A hundred percent. Yeah.

So she is getting popular. So around this time, which I think is like early 90s or like mid, oh, late 90s is the peak. She's ranking in $60 million a year in sales. $60 million in the 90s. $60 million in the 90s. You guys, like it's also for like school stuff. Like it's not like, but it was like to have one of these things was like having like, it was the same thing as getting a cool shirt from Limited Too. Oh my God. You know what I mean? I know. I know.

How dare you? I know. I shouldn't have brought up limited too. That's when it always just goes. Oh, my God. Goes downhill. And between 1995 and 2005 alone, they totaled more than $100 million. That's crazy. Yeah. So she's rich bitch. Oh, my God. Emma had a coloring book. It was violet. And I forgot what the other dog's name was. It was something with a V, though, I think. She would name them really like kooky little. Yes. And I loved that coloring book. You don't know what you have until it's gone. Yeah, it's true. Yeah.

So, Claire, what was it like to work there? Quote,

Lisa Frank is notorious in Tucson as the world's shittiest employer, said Caroline, who considered applying for one of the many job openings at the company she saw advertised when she moved to Tucson in 2000, but decided against it after speaking to many locals. Locals? Locals. So not even employees? Mm-hmm. Oh, do you tell? Every single person I talk to has advised me to avoid Lisa Frank at all costs.

I don't know a single person who had not heard a horror story about the work environment there. So here are some office rules that many employees have said that were just like, they didn't even like that at the time. They were just like, yeah, we're not allowed to do these things. No speaking to each other. Oh, that's never good. We learned that with Theranos too. Exactly. Never good. Let the people talk because it's very like manipulative and controlling. Yep. Pure silence in the office.

secretly and illegally recorded phone calls. What? Mm-hmm. So if they, like, if Lisa had, like, a suspicion about someone... This is a...

This is the folder company, you guys. No visitors. Name calling seemed to be a bonus. And verbal abuse. What? Mm-hmm. It's like the happiest, like, it's so dark when something brings you so much joy as a child and you find out this is what it was. I know. And I think, Rami, that's why you wanted this. Yeah. Just because it's a little ironic. It's a little like, wow, this is...

So it's crazy. If you were like no talking, but if you were going to talk like you better make it hurt. Yes. If you like God. And yeah. So we'll we'll leave it there for now because we'll just let it build. Okay.

And if working there was difficult, so was leaving. The company allegedly often failed to give promised severance packages, fought unemployment benefits, and former employees had to sue to get their final paycheck. See, that is disgusting when you're like a multi-million dollar industry and you're treating your customers like that. That's crazy. It's crazy. One of the...

One member of a parenting message board recounted her experience as a Lisa Frank employee. I personally heard Lisa scream at sales managers and threaten their lives if they fucked up a presentation. Oh, my God, Lisa. Oh, you're so angry. Like there's so much rage in that small woman. Yeah. And there always is. And there always is. So she definitely like this was her fault. This was her company.

And she was not a good boss and she was toxic and all the things. And then there's someone else that comes into the scene. And this would be who goes by Mean James Green. Do you have any guess of who this man was that comes in and fucks shit up? No. No.

It's her husband. Oh. Oh, and he's mean too? So he is like even worse than she is. Oh, God. These people are so miserable. So miserable. And they did not know what was coming for them when little mean James Green came into. Lisa Frank and James Green. These names are wild. They're a little like cartoon characters. They are. And we're going to talk about mean James Green after the break. Oh. And we'll be back in just a second.

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Okay, so James and Lisa married on October 22nd, 1994 in what was described as an extravagant affair. Oh my God, was it like Lisa Frank style? I think it was like really rich. Like I think he came from a rich family too and it was very just like, like 90s rich weddings were so over the top. There were fountains and fondue things and like huge dresses. You know what I mean? Yes, I do. Like kind of a little tasteless always. Of course, of course. But like-

Yeah, a lot of weddings are. Yeah, and that's the truth. Money can't buy you class.

Money can't buy you class. So their first child was born that following July. And they had kids. They had two kids named after two of her little characters. I think their names are. Oh, yeah. Hunter and Forest. No. Yeah. Named after Lisa. I know. Wait. I'm sorry. Their kids names are Hunter Green and Forest Green. Yes.

It's crazy, you guys. No. It's not okay. It's not? It's not okay. I'm obsessed. Some neighbor resident described them as they seemed like just the very opulent people for Tucson. They drove flashy cars, had their own 12-seat twin-engine airplane, and a mansion characterized by a Tucson resident who spoke to Jezebel as a nouveau riche monstrosity of a house. Oh, I'm obsessed.

The darkness in that house. I can't get over Hunter Green and Forest Green. I can't get over it. Disgusting. It's disgusting. Guys, it's like, you know, you can have like a little idea. Like, wouldn't it be funny if we named our baby this? Don't put them through it. Wow. Those kids were going through enough with Jack and Lisa. Yeah. Like, there's just... God. Don't give me that.

more like trauma in their lives. So Lisa has kids and she's like, you know what? I'm actually really happy being a mom. I still am going through my own stuff, but I'm going to stay at home and mostly be a stay at home mom. And she's like, James, sweetheart, do you mind taking over day to day at the company, kind of like replacing me? Actually, you know what? I'm going to give you shareholds of 49%.

So he owns half the company. Okay. Is there not a board to be like, well, she just must be so scary. I think like if basically she's in charge. Oh, God. She's so scary mommy. She's so scary mommy. So she starts coming in just once a month. And everyone's like, oh, God, Lisa. But still scared. But James is scarier than her. Oh, God. So for the next 10 years, James ran the show and turned the place into an absolute nightmare.

unsafe shithole he's like you draw those little seals motherfuckers like literally okay so crazy so he was a short king but not a king oh okay and this explains so much a short peasant claire you know what he would refer to female employees if they were not thin what that guy that guy he'd be he'd like call them men oh my god what okay what um

People who work directly with James couldn't wear heels. Oh, stop. Okay. I had a co-star on a film one time. A film I watch constantly. Yes. Hold on. Hold on. He says my hair is good for headphones. And I was like, I can't let it go on. Thank you. Now that we're on camera. It's better now. Yes. It's perfect now. Yes. On that film. And he was shorter than I was. And my character was supposed to be getting married at one point. We were having an engagement party. Any woman would wear heels. He threw a fit. And I was like, I'm not going to do that.

And made sure that the costume department, wardrobe department did not put me in heels. Did he stand on Apple box? No, he didn't. Because like he had so much ego. I think we need to normalize. Because you know what's even like fucked up? Is that sometimes I even see...

Was it in Challengers where she's a little taller than him when they start kissing the blonde kid? And I was like, oh, she's taller. Like, we still have this reaction where it's like we have to see more of it on screen, I think. 100%. And that's the problem is because so many actors, men are so short. And like Tom Cruise. And they fake it. Yes. That man was with Nicole Kidman. And when they did that movie together, he looked taller than her. He was probably on harnesses the whole time. I don't know.

And like heels. Yeah. Like the heels that Brock is wearing on the Vanderpump Girls after show. His little disgusting like. No, but that is like why I'm glad that we have a phrase like short king. Like very rarely are we like championing like, yes, men need more. But for this, yes. Because the second that you have, which like both Claire and I have experienced in our lives, someone that we're dating or someone being like, do you mind not wearing heels out? Like it really gives you this like.

It's not fair. Yeah, fuck that. Ladies, put heels on if you want to. Put heels on. Men, put heels on if you want to. Heels are fun. Heels are fun. Heels are gorgeous. But yeah, so he did not, but James did not think that heels were gorgeous. He said it was because they couldn't walk fast enough to keep up with him. In reality, he had short man syndrome and didn't like working with women taller than him. Yeah, babe, those legs I don't think are making you go too fast. Exactly. Oh my God. Exactly. Exactly.

That is also a crazy thing to say that they can't walk fast enough to keep up with me. It's crazy to like implement that in your workspace. I'm like, God, these poor people. No kidding. So he's running the show. It's not good. People are really just terrified. And then he's like, you know what? I need some help because I'm really like stressed out. I love this voice. Yeah.

Always chewing the gum. Always chewing the gum. He's like, okay, so what else can we do? And he's like, I'm going to bring in a VP. I need a VP. I'm going to find someone. And he brings in this woman named Rhonda Rowlett. Okay, no, all of these names are made up. You're making these names up. Rhonda Rowlett? Just imagine everyone looking like a version of Betty Boop. But it's perfect. Betty Boop. Betty Boop.

It's perfect for the Lisa Frank world. It's like they only can hire people with names like this. I just imagine them like looking so kooky. Oh, have you seen Billboard Dad? No. Okay. I'm sorry. If anyone has, do you remember that woman that he goes out on a date with who has like lipstick all over her teeth and like really thin, like brown curly hair? That's like what I imagine Rhonda looking like, but like maybe like a little hotter. I had a teacher one time named Rhonda Rich.

Oh, that's chic. That's a chic name. I love the name Rhonda. Like to me, Rhondas are a good time. I don't know about Rhonda Roulette. Well, she liked to have a good time, Claire. Of course she did. Cause she's Rhonda. Cause she's Rhonda. So Rhonda, do you think that she's a nice woman? No. Rhonda is not nice either. Rhonda's not nice.

Quote, Rhonda Rowlett is the enforcer. James uses her to maintain control of the employees. Through Rhonda's employees, jobs are threatened and an atmosphere of hostility is maintained. Employees are consistently called to her office and subjected to threats and harassment. You know who I picture Rhonda looking like and being like? What?

is in holes is it susan sarandon it's um sigourney weaver sigourney weaver yeah wow what a name talk about whole i mean i love that childhood like i keep digging i felt very um sorry i'm tired grandpa that's what she says do do date night um we have date not date not britney jacks

But I picture Rhonda like that. She's like putting on the like snake venom nail polish to her employees and she like backhands them. Oh my God. A hundred percent. This episode is so wild. This episode is wild. So Rhonda, um,

Likes a little... Likes to ski. Okay. If you catch her drift. We're not talking about... We're not talking about the weather. Yeah, we're not talking about the snow weather. So she is doing loads and loads of cocaine and bringing it into the office. Stop. And then James is like, you know what? Can I have a little bit of that? No. And James and her are just doing so much blow. This is childhood. This is like... Not our... Lisa Frank. No. It's our childhood. Yeah. Yeah.

That's honestly, it explains everything though, doesn't it? Exactly. It explains so much. And Lisa is like kind of aware of what's going on, but she's not really enforcing it because she's like, I also like to do a little bit of coke. Of course. Of course. Oh my God. And so there's drugs and then people are like,

Something going on between James and Rhonda? I was literally just about to ask. I mean, can you imagine? These are not good people. No, they're having sex on his desk, on her desk. So everyone knew that Rhonda and James were not so secret lovers. Lovers. They are actually hooking up. So they're hooking up, you guys. Oh, my God. So Kobe Miller, who worked as a product development artist at Lisa Frank for over 10 years, when he submitted a Swarm affidavit, what's an affidavit again?

Like being like, this is what happened legally. I have no idea. So I think he was like called into question during some legal stuff later. And he said, yeah, my wife and I were shopping at Tucson mall over 4th of July weekend. And we stopped by the Lisa Frank retail store in the mall. Cause there was also like stores. I would have loved to go to a brick and mortar. So chic. Um,

We were surprised to see James and Rhonda together in the store on that three-day weekend. We saw them. We had a short conversation with James. Rhonda didn't say much. And when we left, we thought it was actually really weird that they were together. And Rhonda acted sort of caught off guard, seeing us, and a little bit nervous. She acted really uncomfortable. We wondered why James wasn't with his family over a three-day holiday. And Rhonda, why she wasn't with her husband. Something wasn't right. And also, like, why are you guys spending time at the store in the mall? Yeah, like, don't you...

Aren't you sick of it? Aren't you sick of it? That's like the last place that you want to like go to like a hotel and go hook up or something. They're crazy. I feel like they're like on coke in that store being like, we fucking made this. Look, baby. Look, you and I designed this. Totally. Totally. And like then they like open up a coloring book in the store too. Exactly. Don't get your pens out. They're like getting off on it probably together. So at some point, Lisa picked up.

On what was going on. And in September 2005, she filed for divorce. I don't really know the timeline. I think they probably started hooking up in like 2003. Such a crazy story. It's crazy. So she filed for divorce. According to court documents, Lisa noted that the precise date was unknown. But James and Rhonda formed a close personal bond and secret partnership. Oh, I am curious. Was there a prenup?

Ooh. Because, like, I'm curious about how the company has been divided. Right. Because, well, she gave him half of it before. Right. So. Well, then maybe it was easy and they just did halves. Well. Oh. Things are starting to fall apart. Oh, God. Yeah.

So years before Lisa filed for divorce, she would test the waters and regularly ask the staff, if James and I divorced, would you stay with the company? What a crazy question for your boss to ask you. Yeah, just like, what's the right answer? Like literally, what is the right answer? So James moved out of the family home in June 2005.

And Lisa spent the rest of the summer getting more involved, day-to-day activities of the company. So, like, once she left him, she was like, okay, I'm back. Like, Lisa Frank is mine. But then he, but then James is like, no, it's been mine. You've been staying at home. It's gotten so big. I'm actually the one. Oh, God. That has done all of this. These are my designs. Me and Rhonda made the company what it is. Oh, God. Isn't that scary? Duh.

So thus begins all of the trials. Oh, God. And there was, I think I did one too. So there's like six I'll briefly mention. I think I took out another six or seven. Guys, the legal...

like hell that they went through for this? Well, one, she is like a, like a huge business woman. Yes. And this is like a company she started multi-millions. And then it's also your ex-husband is cheating on you. Oh my God. Like I would stop at nothing too. I, I mean, I like feel like sick for her, you know, just cause it's like, she trusted him to be like,

Go do it. I like actually really love being a mom. She put in her time. She put in her time. And these were all like they weren't like the base of what it all of the new stuff that they came up with was her originality. Every single thing off of Lisa Frank. It's like the same thing. Exactly. It's just like a different animal. Exactly. It's almost like like a copyright. Yes. But you know what I mean? So Lisa Frank versus James Green.

September 2005. So her initial suit against him went through a series of appeals that

Green fought tooth and nail to block a 1995 buy-sell agreement that gave Lisa the right to buy out James' shares, remember those 49% shares, in Lisa Frank Inc. should the couple ever divorce. He claimed that he created all of the company's content, including the 400 original characters and all of the themes, with just an exception of a handful.

Okay, you created all of that, James. Also, there's 400 characters? That's crazy. I love the time. Well, I guess when you're doing cocaine, you can come up with 4,000 characters and just be like, and now let's put a little hat. It's so true.

James also petitioned the court to dissolve Lisa Frank Inc. on the grounds that what Lisa was doing by trying to take back control of the company was illegal. Ultimately, he wasn't successful with this, but five litigious years would pass before a settlement agreement was met. So he literally was like, I want to take this company, but also dissolve it? Yeah, because he's like, if you're trying to get it back, then it's just gone. Oh, I would just be so upset. Oh, yeah. No. No, no, it's not good.

So then there's a Ronda Rowlett versus Lisa Frank. Oh, God, Ronda. Sit this one out. Ronda, just like, have you no, like, have you no shame? Like, you already have James. Exactly. Back off, bitch. Back off, bitch. So this was March 2006. After she was fired by Lisa, Ronda sued for $2 million plus damages, claiming that she

What she was often promised as a severance if she were ever to retire or be fired. She's like, I'm not getting that. Lisa's like, look around, babe. No one's getting that. Exactly. She's like, I'm not even getting that. You've taken everything from me. So appeals went on for three years before there was a sealed settlement.

I think sealed settlement means that you don't know what ended up happening. Yeah, we don't know, but they settled. I'm guessing it wasn't $2 million, but it was probably like... Probably was pretty close. Honestly, Lisa's lawyers were probably like, if you want this to go away, pay it. That's how it always is, right? They're just like, fuck, it's so expensive to hire lawyers. It really is. Okay, so then there was Lisa Frank Inc. versus James Green and Gary Rowlett. Okay.

Who do you think Gary is? Was Rhonda married the whole time? Rhonda was married the entire time. Oh, my. Also, we've had Gary's two weeks in a row. Oh, yeah. The hot Gary. Gare Bears. I don't think Gary Rowlett was hot. I don't think so either. This is a month for the Gare Bears. Yeah. This was in April 2006 in a third-party counterclaim.

Lisa Frank, Inc. alleged, among things, that Rowlett and Green, along with Rowlett's husband, Jerry Rowlett, stole five truckloads of company property and converted corporate funds for their personal use. So just Gary was like, honestly, I'm just going to get in on it, too. I think he's like, if there's some cash involved, then keep bucking them. And then these five truckloads of merchandise. Like plushie toys. They're like, just put them in the car.

Everyone's just like so high on coke the whole time. There needs to be a movie about this. Oh my god, it would be such a good like mini-series, you know? And like styled really cool. Yeah, to make it like really kooky and fun. Yes. Yeah. That one really made me laugh. It's like those blow-up chairs too that they used to have like folders. Oh my god, the blow-up chairs. The like plastic sparkly chairs. Yes.

Let's see. A few more that are just making me giggle. James Green versus Lisa Frank and Lisa Frank Inc., August 2006. James sought $16.7 million to repay a loan for a private jet he bought. Wait, what? He bought that jet with her money? With the money that Lisa Frank had. And then is he suing her? And now he's like, I'm not going to be able to pay that. I'm not going to be able to pay that, so you need to pay it. What?

This is so crazy. If I was the judge, honestly, I'd be like, finally, like something interesting. Keep it going. I'd be like, this is actually like, this is a fun day at work. She's like writing with like a fluffy Lisa Frank pin. She's like, tell me more. Her gavel is like Lisa Frank. She's like, I'm a fan. Yeah, yeah.

Let's see. What other ones are fun? We have James Green versus Lisa Frank, Inc., October 2009. So this just keeps going on and on. And the things just get a little bit more like, okay, guys, time to go night-night. Yeah, time to go night-night. You know, like, let's just end this all now. That said, Green acting again as a member of Green Bean Investments, which is like an investment company that he had on the side that his kids were involved in, too. Yeah.

Green bean. In some way. It's enough. Green bean is enough. He attempted to have Lisa Frank Inc. evicted from its headquarters as part of the suit. Green sent... See, this is like what pisses me off about him. Sorry to interrupt. It's like that he's trying to take the company away from her, but also trying to destroy the company. It's like, just let her have it. It's this disgusting like control thing. Yes. Of like what men, these toxic men do of like, if she, if I can't have it, then I'm also going to take her down. Yes. Where it's like, she didn't...

didn't ask you to have an affair and to... Yes. Clearly, you don't care about the company. Exactly. It's all just to win. That really pisses me off. And to put your kids through this, too. So this is what... Because I was like... You put them through enough with their names. Exactly. This says... So as part of the suit...

Green sent his sons and other members of Green Bean Investments, who were about 13 and 9 years old at the time, a written demand to give him consent to take action against their mother's company. That's so dark. They like sent the kids like into headquarters and they're like, go. That's so dark. I know.

So, on top of all of that, Lisa and James have spent the better part of eight years duking it out over everything and anything such as divvying up personal possessions like furniture, family photographs. They have gone insane.

What's the expression? Tick for tit. Tit for tat. Tit for tat. Yeah. Tit for motherfucking tat. And finally, in 2013, there seemed to be a light at the end of the tunnel. Because after all of this, like, I think everything sort of ended around, like, 2010. And there's not, like, a lot of information of who got what, money. Like, I think it was all, like, mostly sealed settlements. So we're not exactly sure. I think Lisa...

Came out on top. I hope so. But like. You know, she sounds like trash too. Exactly. Like, I think she got more than he did, but they were like, where's this company going to go? Like, it's not like you can't really have Lisa Frank Inc. anymore. You can't be like, it's just a tough look. However, in 2013, Lisa Frank Inc. entered into a relationship with Urban Outfitters. Wow.

Really? To sell t-shirts she designed exclusively for the retailer using some of her classic illustrations. In addition, they sold her access stock for vintage stationery pieces.

Stop. Please don't say vintage. Please don't say vintage. Please don't do it. We're not, it's not happy. But also so smart. Cause like if there's going to be a brand, it's urban. Exactly. So she did that in 2013. And since then she has kind of been out of commission and that was like her like final hurrah. She got some more money from that. I think urban, I remember seeing that in, let's see, I graduated college in 2013. I remember seeing people wear like

ripped jean jeans with like a lisa frank shirt like that was like a moment i don't remember that but that was like i moved to la like around that time and that's like right when i was seeing urban outfitters for the first time totally i was in san francisco so everyone was like doing the whole like 90s thing again and so she had a moment and that's the story of lisa frank that is how it's like no one talking about this thank god for this article because it actually is weird like

Going on her Wikipedia, literally nothing. It was like Lisa Frank had Lisa Frank ink and she sold these. Do you think she wants it that way? I'm sure. Also because it's such like a childhood nostalgia brand. I think like a lot of the trials were private to some extent and I think she kept it. I mean even like knowing to circle back to like her personality and her essence of like not wanting to be in the public eye and not wanting to be photographed and stuff. Like she's a private person. Yeah. Yeah.

So that is Lisa Frank. Oh my God, Tess. That was so fun. It was a fun episode, wasn't it? You just never know when a story like that will hop upon us. No, because I was like, ugh. But once I found this article and I watched like a few, there's like a few YouTubers that have done a deep dive into her. And so I watched like a couple of those videos and I was like, oh, people are like talking about it. Yeah. Our Rammies are talking about it. Our Rammies are talking about it. Yeah.

But we are going to end with a quick little 90s this or that. Hell yeah, Tess. Because we have to go out on top. Exactly, exactly. Okay, everyone play along. Claire, Home Alone or The Parent Trap? Oh, come on. I know. I knew this would be a hard one to start. Parent Trap, I guess. Same. Clueless. You're not a Home Alone girly. Not a Home Alone girly. I can't do it. It makes me really anxious for some reason. I'm Home Alone. I know. But yeah, Parent Trap. Clueless or Pretty Woman? Pretty Woman.

Clueless. Same. Yeah. Same. Pretty Woman's not one of my favorite movies, actually. I need to rewatch it, but there is kind of a darkness about it. It's not like a feel-good movie. No, it's not. But Clueless, I need to rewatch maybe tonight. Oh, my. Clueless is such a good Friday movie. Isn't it? It's so fun. Disney or Nickelodeon?

Oh, that's so hard. I have to go for my OG though and say Nickelodeon, especially for the 90s. Uh-huh. I'm going to go Disney. South Park or Family Guy? Neither. Same. That is not our sense of humor. Okay. Sorry. I know. It's really not. I'm going to throw in, this isn't 90s though, but Bob's Burgers. I love Bob's Burgers. Oh, yeah. I just don't like a cartoon. Yeah, that's fair. But Bob's Burgers is so good. Slap bracelets or scrunchies?

Slap bracelets. Same. You know what? Also, maybe you have this on here. The Chinese trap. Is that what it's called? What was that? I think it was called like a Chinese finger trap. Yes. Yes. Those things would terrify me. Oh my God. I forgot all about those. I don't have it on here. VHS or CDs? Or CDs. Like so music or a movie. Yeah. Just like what would make you more excited in the 90s. Oh, VHS. Same. I was such a TV girly. Same. Bagel bites or Lunchables? Oh.

Oh my God. Fuck. Those were both like my daily nutrition. Bagel bites. I would say Lunchables. Oh, I used to love Bagel Bites and Lunchables. God, Lunchables were so exciting when I could eat one. Yeah. On my birthday, I was allowed to get one.

Mine was literally like every day. And I would eat like the disgusting Lunchables, like the burger ones. Oh, I never had. I just had like the meats and the cheeses and crackers. I was always like, I'm hungry two seconds after. I mean, it's not a lot of like, it's not a lot of like protein in there. No, and it's like really not good. The burgers and then there was the pizza ones and there's the nacho ones. Oh, yeah. But bagel bites, like my, the roof of my mouth has never been the same because you can't wait to let it cool off. Nor should you. I want bagel bites right now. I know. I know. Game Boy or PlayStation? PlayStation.

I didn't have either. Me either. You know I had to put this in for like the one guy that listens to this podcast. I guess I would choose PlayStation. Yeah. I don't even know. Emma had PlayStation and she had the Tony Hawk video game and there was a way to make the girl you could show her boob. Really? Yeah, you're like, show it again. Kiss her again. Yeah, kiss her again. And finally, hula hoop or pogo stick? Oh.

Ooh, probably hula hoops. Same. But I love a pogo stick, but they're scary. Very scary. But hula hoops were fun, like, if you were trying to, like, get a guy's attention in, like, elementary school and you were, like, moving your butt and you were like, yeah. Totally. Oh, that's such a good one. Ah, so kids...

I just want to keep talking about the 90s, really. I mean, we can do more 90s episodes if you guys like this. We can do deep dives on other kind of weird, like, this is a reminder that there's just so much out there that we don't even know. There's so much out there. And that's why we love when you guys DM us saying to do it. Because for the past few episodes, it's just been what you guys, we haven't even looked at our, like,

our personal list. Yeah. And like when we tell you guys we're adding it to a list, we actually, we have a shared notes app and we actually do add to the list every time. Yeah. I'll get a notification pick up. Yep. Except for 9-11. We'll never cover that. But nope. Sorry about it. Not doing it. But Tessa, that was so fun. That was just what I needed to come out of like my strep haze. Sorry. That's what I need to come out of my hangover. Yeah. I feel better. I feel so much better. Gorgeous. That's so fun.

If you guys love the show, please subscribe on Spotify or Apple iTunes. Write a little review. Like, I would love another little review. We need some more. Yeah, we do. And you can join our premium channel. It's a lot like this, but even more fun. Yes. And thank you to Spotify Studios for hosting us as always. Follow us at Write Answers Mostly everywhere and anywhere. And we will see you next week for our final episode before going on a tiny, tiny trip.

tiny, tiny little break. Teeny. It's Ask Us Anything. So write in to us at any point. Yes. And we'll put it on the list. Yeah. You know where to find us. And we love you. Goodbye. Bye.