Elizabeth Holmes was out for bad blood
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Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. My name is Tess Palomo. And my name is Claire Donald. And we are back. We are the first episode since our 100th episode was released last week. 101. 101 Dalmatians. I was literally just going to say that.

Oh my God. 101 Dalmatians, 101 episodes of Ram. And thanks for sticking with us, as we always say, to everyone that may be new here that found us recently. Hello. We have 100 episodes for you to catch up on. So buckle up, Buttercup. There's so many different types of episodes. It's Women's History Month. There's lots of strong, powerful women that we cover. So check that out. Oh, that's true. Oh, so this episode is... It's honestly appropriate. You know? You know?

No, it is. We honor women of all kinds, of all walks of life. Yeah, we honor the intentions of women.

Corrupt women.

We might be switching over to a new platform soon, just like as a heads up. Don't let that scare you. Two bonus episodes a month. You get the whole catalog, $7.99. It's in our show notes. But like, basically, I'm like...

Living in my single girl era, hopping around and having a good time. She said it, folks. I said it. She said it. Publicly. I did. Publicly. Wow. She made a public statement. I did. In my black turtleneck. If you guys are watching on Spotify or YouTube, Tess and I are matching. We love to be matching. We have to, especially for this episode. But yeah, I'm feeling good. Probably will be staying with you for a little bit again. Of course. We'll be a sleepover. We love that. Noah loves that. Oh, yeah. Tell me.

And all loves it. Of course. I mean, I love it. The whole family. You guys are like my parents these days. How are you? I'm good. Yeah, nothing really new to report. I've been in like a fairly good mood recently. Same. You know what I mean? It's like, well, I think that spring is on the horizon and it just feels hopeful. I do, at least. I feel, yeah. I just feel like the beginning of the year, I was just sort of waking up every day with like...

A little anxiety, a little like sense of dread. And I was like, what am I dreading? And like, I couldn't really figure it out. Couldn't figure out like what I was anticipating in a way. And I just feel like I've been waking up with like, I think it's like natural for me to kind of go to like, okay, like what needs to be done? Who's upset? What's going to happen? And I think these days I'm just like,

Take a breath. Yeah. Think about what you're looking forward to for the day. Yeah. Think about like what's fun ahead for the week and just like chill out a little bit. And I think I've been, I've been getting a little better. That's so nice. It's such a relief. It is a relief. Um, but yeah, that's, that's really it. Um, I'm doing a Felicity rewatch.

I've never seen Felicity. I know. It's, I mean, it's, if you didn't watch it in the start of, you know, it aired in 1999, I think. So it's like old. I think it can be like, wow, this feels a little outdated. What was it on? It was on the WB. Oh, right. Which is the CW. Yes. But then they had to switch to another network when she cut off all her hair because it lost so much viewership. Stop. Have you heard the story? No. She gets a pixie cut as a breakup cut.

In the start of season two. All right, guys. Well, we do have to say, listen, stay away from the scissors and for the box of colors, if you just got or went through a breakup, just like give it a beat. Give it like six months and then ask yourself again. Yeah. But I read about it last night because I was like, I want to like, was it? I didn't know how much, how many viewers they actually lost.

Claire, they lost a third. Stop. And it was a really popular show season one. I mean, it was like, it was everything. And women wrote in. They sent Keri Russell death threats. Oh my God. Men were like, I'm never watching this anymore because she's fucking ugly. I know.

J.J. Abrams, who is the creator who did Lost and Alias and all of that, Star Wars, was literally like, it was such a mistake of my entire career because we just like, it made the show, the next three seasons, like a struggle to keep it going. Keri Russell is like known for her big curly hair too, right? So it was like a shock to the system. People were like, you betrayed us. They felt a sense of betrayal. Yeah, that's crazy. I would feel so shitty if I was Keri Russell. I'd be like, I see. Yeah. I she. I she. And she's so beautiful. She still looks stunning, but it's quite the cut.

Yeah. And in the 90s. I think I pictured a poster with her with a pixie cut. I'll send you some photos. I mean, she is everything. And I've just been thinking about that a lot this morning. I'm just like, God, women and their hair and just like, you know. And we've talked about it so much. The men, they're like, oh, you can wear your hair up and you still look good. And you're like, shut up. Yeah. Crazy. Tess has had that told to her before. Yeah, when my wig came off and I was wearing like a... We were at Halloween. That's why she's wearing a wig. And I had like braids and...

Elizabeth Holmes Elizabeth Holmes

That was good. Okay, because it's a little bit less like it's more... We're talking... There we go. Okay, sorry. I had to get back into it. It's a little nasally. It's like, we're going to be talking about Elizabeth Holmes today. That is crazy. And I had a LaCroix and I knew I shouldn't have and my...

Digestive system is trying to be the third co-host. Your system was shot. Let the voice settle because I'll do it later. It's like I'm still warming up. Yeah, you're warming up. I like put you really on the spot. No, it's okay. I had known that she was known for that voice, but like, well, first, I really don't know anything about the subject and I hadn't really heard her voice. And then I Googled this morning and I was shooketh to my core. She's a shocking woman. Like the sound of her voice is shocking. The way she looks and how she never blinks is shocking. What she did was really shocking. And I don't know any...

I do know one thing. Say it. She's spending time with Jen Shaw. Apparently, Jen Shaw is... Jen Shaw from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, is she giving Elizabeth Holmes abs or is Elizabeth Holmes giving Jen Shaw abs? Jen has been teaching her... She's been doing some workout classes for Elizabeth. So now Elizabeth is really into fitness. So, hey. I feel like... Also, like Jen Shaw's into fitness. I feel like Jen Shaw is just sitting on a table in the prison yard being like, move your ass. Yeah.

Truly, she's hitting other women with dumbbells. Yeah, she has a sucker. That's all that's going on. Well, literally, it is funny because the subject, as we always say, it does go back to Bravo. It always goes back to Bravo. They are BFFs right now. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, also what just keeps coming to mind for me is it was the greatest bamboozlement of my life that I ever achieved or my lifetime. It is the great Bravo people. You know, Erica, Erica Jane says it was the greatest bamboozlement. I don't know. And Elizabeth Holmes literally bamboozled everyone. She bamboozled the world. So.

Yeah, all I know is that and, like, blood. But I don't know, like, what are we bamboozling about? Well, Claire, we're going to talk about it today. Okay. We're going to talk about the lies, the... What's it called? Deceit. Deceit. And the craziness of this woman, Elizabeth Ann Holmes. Oh, another Ann. Jessica Ann Simpson to Elizabeth Ann Holmes. Yeah, I can't say there's any other correlation between the two, but besides her middle name... Well...

Elizabeth Holmes is one that I feel like is such a Ram subject. And I was saying just before we were recording, I was like, I can't believe we're here right now. It feels kind of like, whoa, how did we get here? I mean, I was finishing the Jessica episode this morning, and I think I'm still so in her world. It's hard to leave behind. And I really had to like, yesterday I still wanted to watch Newlyweds. And like, of course, and I then turned on the

HBO Elizabeth Holmes documentary. I was like, wow, we're really just going all over the place. All over the map. That's what happens when we don't have theme months anymore, guys. It's true. And it can be shocking to the system. It can be. And this is going to be a little shocking. I can't wait. I'm ready to be shocked. All right. So first off, sources. Yes. ABC News article. Okay.

Wikipedia. A stepfather, of course. And really just threw you guys and HBO's documentary, The Inventor, out for blood in Silicon Valley. Wow. Did you watch any of the Amanda Seyfried show? So I did watch that when it came out. I watched about half of it. And I have to say, I stopped it because I was so...

irritated by the sound of her voice i mean i i've been looking at her understand i was just like stop it and and no i mean no shade to uh amanda she did a great portrayal of her it was so obnoxious just like the character in general she's just not she's an odd duck yeah she's not likable she's weird she's unsettling i can't wait but it's like a fascinating story just because she's

A freak. A freak. I'm a freak, yeah. You know. The Idol, anyone? HBO? It's a cool show. That's the one good thing that came out of that show. I do like that song. I don't even know what that song is. I'm a freak, yeah. You know. Make sure to tune into YouTube. See my performance.

That's why you come here, kids. Exactly. Also, I'm wearing standing jeans and it's like, fuck. I know. It's always with the jeans. Why did I wear these jeans today? I know, but we had to be standing. We had to be matching, though. We did. We did. Okay. So, Elizabeth Holmes. She was born. Oh, what? What is her sign? Is she an Aquarius? She is an Aquarius.

Which really did make me laugh because I was just like, of course. It's too perfect. It's too perfect because what do we say about Aquarius's? Just like, what's that all about? What's that all about? Like, how did you get this way? Why are you like this? It really makes me laugh. Shout out to our friend, Alice. Shout out to you, Alice. Don't worry. There's no similarities. Okay. Besides being an Aquarius. She's smart. You know, be a smart woman. I'll give her that.

Okay, so she was born February 3rd, 1984 in Washington, D.C., but then her family primarily resided in Texas. Okay. Houston, Texas. So her dad, Christian Ramos Holmes, was vice president of Enron. Oh no, shit. Oh my God. Is she just a Ram baby? She is a Ram baby. So if you don't know about Enron, we have an episode all about a two-parter hosted by our friend Mike Quinn 92. 92.

So Enron was an energy company that later went bankrupt after an accounting fraud scandal. He was vice president? He was vice president. Frauds and the family frauds. Family frauds, family money, honey. Yeah, no kidding. Her mom, Noelle Ann Dowse, worked as a congressional committee staffer. And fun fact, just so you can kind of like get an essence of like their family legacy and the history of

Her paternal great-great-great-grandfather, Charles Lewis Fleischman, founded Fleischman's Yeast Company. And they have a lot of pride in that. That's like, you know when you're getting like dry... The yeast packets? Yeah. That's like red and blue and yellow? That's Fleischman? Yes. And I'm pretty sure that they also have like other...

Do they have apple cider vinegar, too? Probably. So I think they, I mean. Rich. I mean, yeast is the gateway drug to other baking goods. Wow. You know? Wow. It really is, isn't it? You can't really do anything without yeast. It's true. You can't make bread. That's for sure. Damn. And then what's the point in anything without that? So John Cario. This is spelled. Fuck test. It's spelled incorrectly. John Cario. Cario. From the Wall Street Journal quotes.

I mean...

Iconic, honestly. Sorry. Sorry about it. She means business. She means entrepreneurship. She means wealth. Yeah. And her eyes on the prize from a young age. And she grew up in this environment where like money was the center of everything. I love also that she's like, no, the president's going to marry me, babe. I mean, we do love a woman that

That says that. Yeah. I'm going to try to give her. Yeah. Knowing nothing about her, that's iconic shit. Can you imagine your nine-year-old saying that? I'd love that. That was also very much our energy, I feel. 100%. We're like, we know what kind of lifestyle we want. Okay. We're going to do whatever it takes to get there. Exactly. So she went to St. John's School in Houston, Texas, and she was interested from a young age in computer programming. That's nice for her.

Nice for her. She started her first business as a teenager in selling C++ complier to Chinese universities, which essentially like she's selling code, like different. This is when I'm like, oh, God, the tech. It's like you need different things in different. She's selling that as a teenager? Yeah, she's selling this as a teenager, which really made me laugh because it reminded me that my brother, I think when he was...

God, like 10 to 12. I'm not sure and I should have asked him. But between that age, he started his own business where he would take the train from Palo Alto where we grew up and he would go into the city and he would help fix people's computers. And he was literally like a 10-year-old. Don't make me cry, Tess. And he like saved up money and he did this for a business. Also, like –

Your computer's broken. You're like, I actually know a 10-year-old perfect for this job. I mean, he networked. He was like at hotel lobbies with martinis, networking. He's like, let me see it. Give me the keyboard. So that really just made me laugh. So her high school teacher said this about her.

I just remember the way she carried herself, almost like a dancer carries herself on stage with this kind of can-do attitude chin up. She was always very composed. And, you know, even when she had questions, even when things were confusing, she still just had this kind of presence about her that stuck out in my mind. So...

She's a weird child, I think is what – that's a nice way of putting it. Yeah. She seems like an intense kid. I mean, even, like, the turtlenecks, which she says that she started wearing at seven. That is haunting. It is haunting. It's like I just feel like she had, like, really good posture, and she just, like, really didn't, like, let herself go.

Not on that Wall Street Journal interview I have, but when I, or that I watched, but I feel like she was doing, it was like literally guys, she, and I'm not one to talk, but she was like hunched over and leaning in. I feel like it was like, I'm listening to you right now. It's performative. Yes. And everything about her is super performative, which we will see. So her parents had arranged Mandarin Chinese home tutoring. Yes.

This family is like not for me besides the wealth. It's a little intense. Greatest nightmare. Just like there's just so much like academia and like.

Turtlenecks. Turtlenecks. And halfway through high school, she began going to Palo Alto, shout out, and attending Stanford University's summer Mandarin program. Oh, my God. Yeah. But God, to be – that was always the dream was to do Stanford courses over the summer because you could do them in like – when I was at USF, I had to make up math or something. Yeah.

Well, I forget. Drawing. There was something that I needed. Math or drawing. There was something I needed to make up where I could do it at USF or I could have done it at Stanford. And Stanford's just like so expensive. But like I could have done it for like six weeks. And I'm like, ugh. Just to say that you like –

Went to Stanford and did it. Exactly. Because like anyone can get in. Really? To like the summer programs. Oh, if you pay. If you pay. Yeah. You got to pay to play. So that wasn't going to happen. But anyway, that was the dream. Have you been to Stanford's campus? I have actually. Oh, that's right. Once. And it's beautiful. It's just like, it is just truly so stunning. So California. Well, RAM college tour we'd like to do across California first. So we'll make a stop at Stanford. Stanford. We could teach you something. We'll get an honorary doctorate from Stanford.

Stanford one day. That would just be... Shoot for the stars, kids. That would be the dream, wouldn't it? Yep. So this inspires her to go to Stanford as an undergrad to study chemical engineering. So she goes to Stanford? She goes... You literally just said that, which is crazy. There's so much like wrapped up already. There really is. Like so many connections that we have with her. There really, really is. Chemical engineering? Chemical engineering. And she worked as a student researcher and a lab assistant in that school. And she's

But college has a very traumatic start. And I will preface this by giving a trigger warning to sexual assault if you want to skip through the next two minutes or so. When she was just 19...

And still in her freshman year, on August 5th, 2003, she was raped on campus. Oh my God. According to court documents, a sexual assault had occurred at the fraternity house Sigma Chi, which has a long history of controversy and sexual assault, which we talk about in our sorority and fraternity episode, you know.

It's not great. No. It's not great. So needless to say, this really ruined her college experience. She no longer felt safe or comfortable being on campus. And it was like this was her first few months that this happened to her. It's just so not fair. Obviously, it's so sad that like your life has just changed forever from that. I know. And it really truly did. This changed her life.

her self her like everything about her changed after this happened and before did anything happen to him do you know she ended up going i mean it was like a whole like years later you know it was a whole court case and i i actually don't know what happened to him um

Wow. Yeah, I'm not sure. Hopefully justice is served. I hope so. So before this, Elizabeth had actually met this guy who was enrolled at Berkeley, which is just like about an hour away from Stanford. And his name was Sonny Balwani. He had been working for Lotus Software and Microsoft. He claimed to have written thousands of lines in code. He was 37, married, but immediately attracted to Elizabeth and found her very interesting and promising. Wow.

Wow. Well, we've seen this story before. We've seen it before, Claire, and we'll see it again. She confided in him about what had happened to her.

He kind of became like her safe place in a way. I mean, he was older. I think she felt like he was like her protector. How did they meet? I think they met at like doing some science shit. Yeah. It's always the science or coding shit. Yeah. And so they started dating shortly after and like he leaves his wife and when she's 19 and he's 37, 38, they begin a relationship. Oh, God. Yeah. Did he have kids?

I don't think he did. 37 married. Yeah, I don't think he did. It's just such a cliche. It is such a... Yeah, just do something more interesting. Yeah, seriously. So, during this time, and actually right before the sexual assault, Elizabeth had started brainstorming about a little project that she was dedicating her time to. She's at Stanford. She's working in the labs. And she had gone in to the doctor just to get a yearly physical. And during this physical...

She had to get blood work. And for Elizabeth, she said that getting her blood drawn is like what nightmares are made of. She's like, I'm not afraid of many things in life. I hate needles. I don't understand how, you know, you're getting tested for like 10 things and they have to take like three huge. I mean, it actually kind of makes me sick to say it. I think I've really developed...

something not great with the same we both just pass out faint the room silent for like two they come and find us no i i'm the same way like i can't look at needles i also didn't i wasn't always like that same i used to like get my blood drawn and be like whatever and now like i really like i mean what is there to like no there's nothing to like um

She she's basically just like this doesn't like make sense. And she also had her uncle who she was very close with, like closer to her uncle than her parents had recently died of cancer and had kind of like seen him struggle throughout, you know, different practices and hospitals and stuff. So she's kind of the she's starting to brainstorm about like, hmm, there's a missing space for something here with like getting cancer.

Getting your blood drawn more easily, being able to detect things sooner. So nasty. But it's also like it doesn't really make sense. It's like, what doesn't make sense, Elizabeth? Like that's how you get your blood. Right. Like and this is what we're going to see throughout this. It's like great. Great. But also no. Yeah. Great. But no. Oh, my God. I like literally feel nauseous thinking about the blood. I'm so sorry. I like brought this whole episode actually might be. Let me take a little sip of water. Take a little sip. Everyone take a deep breath.

I'm sorry, guys. We're going to get through this together. We're going to get through this together. So Elizabeth has an idea. What is this idea? She's like, what if I could develop a patch that would test microscopic blood samples from infectious diseases and dose antibiotics for treatment through that? So she's like, it doesn't have to be that complicated. I just want it to be this like kind of one and done. You get a little prick.

And then you get the medicine like dosed right out, dosed right back to you. So that's like the first idea of what she's saying. So she even filed paperwork to acquire a patent for this like immediately. And in March 2004, she drops out of Stanford School of Engineering. She uses her tuition money as seed fundraising for a consumer health care technology company. Oh, God. So I think her parents were like, no.

No, I think they were like, yes. It's our entrepreneur girl. Yeah. I think they're like, I mean, they probably wanted her to like finish Stanford just to have to be able to say like she's a Stanford graduate. Yeah. But I think they all have a lot of confidence in themselves. Yeah. You know, it's easy to do that when you're just like born so rich. It's like the world is at your feet. Yeah. To be confident about. Yeah. Like what can't you do? Yeah. Yeah.

So what does she do? Her first, the first name for this company is called Real Time Cures. And she goes to Palo Alto. Once again, shout out. And during this time, she's just talking to a lot of Stanford medical professionals. They're literally all like, what are you talking about? This idea is not scientifically or medically possible. And she's like, no, I just know that there's something here. I know it. So she doesn't relent.

And she succeeded in getting her advisor and dean at the School of Engineering, Channing Robertson, to back her idea. It just takes one sometimes. Yeah. What did Lady Gaga say? You can be in a room. Sorry, Tess. I'm 99 people and you just need that one. Once again, I'm sick to my stomach for a different reason now. Tess and Lady Gaga do not vibe. No, no, no. We're not friends. I'm almost like, God, one day I'm probably going to end up covering her on this, just in the most ironic way.

One can only hope. Oh, she just, yeah, she's not for me. But so she and Channing are like, we're doing this together. And they're like, we need to rename it. And they rename it Theranos, a blend of therapy and diagnosis. It's not Theranos? Fuck, I'm actually, I don't know how to say it. Is it Theranos? I think it might be Theranos. Theranos, right? Theranos. Oh, thank you for catching me. That's like the whole episode. Theranos. My headphones fell off.

I got swept off my feet. Theranos. Theranos. Theranos. Yeah. Okay. Right answers mostly, babe. That's why you keep coming back. So Channing is like, I got you. He becomes the first board member and introduces her to just a ton of investors and venture capitalists. He's where the money's at. We love where the money's at. We love where the money's at.

So little Sunny, who she's dating, is running day-to-day operations as their first president, even though he had no training in biological sciences or medical devices. Ladies. So, okay, but like already hearing this, when I hear these stories, I'm like, listen, we know how this turns out. It's like not great for her, but I'm just like, why not me then? Yeah.

Like, why didn't this happen to you? No, just, well, not like this, but just like, if you want something, all you have to do is be confident about it. It is like, it is inspiring. Not what ends up happening, but the... No, but it's just like... Her initial idea for this

And I think it is, like, important to say this, is in good faith. It is, like, she sees a missing space in the medical community. So it's not, like, selfish. It's, like... No, I think... I mean, she's a weird woman who isn't a good person, but I also think...

Before this all kind of blew up, like the start of it is being like, how do we get people to be less scared of like taking blood? And how can we detect things earlier? And how do we make this more pleasant for people? I do appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, she's a any entrepreneurial woman, person, man, anyone. It's inspiring. Yeah, totally. Go out and just ask. It's asking people for what you need. And just like having the confidence to be like, yeah, I got this because that's infectious. Exactly. Exactly, Claire. Yeah.

So, yeah, don't work with your new boyfriend at a startup, ladies. We've seen this. It's Silk Row. He employs his girlfriend at one point. That doesn't end well. So, yeah, we've seen this on RAM before. And just keep it separate. Yeah, I think it's just complicated. Yeah, get their advice on things. Especially for startups. Like, the stakes are so high. The stakes are so high. And unfortunately, Sunny is rather controlling and verbally abusive from the

The get-go. Classic. They'll be together for about a decade. Oh, wow. And she says, you know. He's so much older than her, though. So, like, yeah, that makes sense. She's like, this is just how it is. Well, it's like what we were talking about with Nick and Jessica. Yeah. You know, there's just, like, such a difference in, like, everything. Because she starts out so young, and so she's looking to him for everything. It's like the power dynamic is weird. I feel like often it's very, like, father-daughter. Yeah. And he's just not a great guy. He's controlling. Yeah.

Some of their texts were leaked during what will later happen in court. And this is painful, but this is like I just it's so funny because I just have to give a little expert of one. Please. So there's one that goes to show like Elizabeth was like enamored by him with him.

With him. Enamored by? I think it's by him. By him. I think so. Or with him. With. I think it's with. By slash with. Okay, you guys let us know. Yeah. Elizabeth texted him at one point saying, you are the breeze in the desert for me. My water? No. My ocean? No.

Well, there's no ocean in the desert, babe. That's true. Got to pick one. Yeah. Meant to be only together, my tiger. In which Sonny replies, okay, period. Stop. No, Sonny. Sonny. That's like, come on. That is cruel. And I think she- My tiger. A tiger. Well, I know. Well, I think she's obsessed with him. And I think he's obsessed with her obsession for him. It's like, what's worse, the jail sentencing or your text being released, you know?

Can you imagine? No. There's a Vice article that I also read, to give a shout out to Vice, that shows a bunch of their texts. And the author of that article is just like, this is literally my worst nightmare. Like, you could do anything to me. Do not release texts from when I was 19 and 20 to men that I like. Oh, that's horrible. Can you imagine? My tiger. I can't get over that. And then, okay, period. Okay, period. She's like looking at her friend. She's like, so what do you think he means by that? Oof. It just reminds me of like...

Oh, my God. Do you remember, like, when you would drunk text, like, someone that you were dating or that you liked in your early 20s? And they would text back being like, we'll talk tomorrow. And sometimes they'd say, we'll talk tomorrow, Tess. And you were like... I hated when men responded, we'll talk tomorrow, Tess, to me. Just, like, pretend at least that you think this is endearing just for the night. Just for me. Just for me. Yeah. But anyway, so...

During this time of when they're getting fundraising and they keep brainstorming and this is all kind of becoming reality, Elizabeth sort of...

She's obsessed with this idea of being a CEO in Silicon Valley. Yeah. You know, she's someone in medicine and cutting-edge technology. Her idol is Steve Jobs. Well, the turtleneck, of course. The turtleneck. She's also really inspired by Thomas Edison, in which she later named the device of Theranos. Theranos. Theranos. Oh, my God, you guys. Theranos. I'm going to say this wrong the entire time. That's okay. Theranos.

Theranos. Theranos. Why is it so hard for me? Um,

And, you know, she just has, she's deeply in that toxic Silicon Valley mentality. She wears this damn turtleneck every day to meetings. She starts to put like heavy, heavy eye makeup on and like under her eye too. This woman has, and I can say this because remember that professor who told me that I have punch drunk eyes. She has punch drunk eyes. That is a wild thing to say to your students. So what does that mean?

mean? I think it just means that your eyes are, which actually doesn't make sense because if you're drunk your eyes are like sleepy. Thanks for the visual test. It like doesn't make sense. But her eyes are just like huge and she's known not to blink especially during important meetings. That is haunting. She is so scary. It actually like makes me like

She's terrifying. Unsettling. She's unsettling. She prides herself on sleeping only four hours a night, on eating the same meals at every time, every day. Enough with that bullshit. It doesn't make you cool. It's like the same people are like, and I don't watch TV. It doesn't make you a leader. No. Actually, what makes you a leader is being very vulnerable with people that look up to you. The same meal. Do you know what the meal was? I'm sure it's plain oatmeal, if I could imagine. Plain oatmeal, plain oatmeal.

What would be for lunch? Like maybe like salmon on a bed of spinach. Yes. Yeah. And then roasted chicken. A hundred percent. A lot of like bland meats and like. Not my cup of tea. No, thank you. And this is also when she develops and yes, develops the voice.

This deep baritone manufactured voice, which as I tried to do at the beginning of the episode. So people say that she literally did not use to speak like this until she got famous, essentially. So it's very much this like...

nasally and I'm going to present you with these ideas. It's like, it hurts me to even do it. I'm like, that is like really good though. Tess, that's how she sounds. It was better on, I put it on the close friends, Patreon story today because I was practicing in the car and I was like, this is so LA. Totally. And I was, it was better. It was better there.

But so her colleagues are like, what the fuck? This kind of just like came out of nowhere. And people that she went to high school with said that she had a very high pitched voice before. But her family's like, no, it wasn't high pitch. That was just during puberty. Like, it's always been this deep, babe.

And look, why does she do this voice? She does it to, you know, because the patriarchy. Yeah, we have sympathy for that. And I do have sympathy that she's just trying to be this like, she's trying to be taken seriously. She's trying to think that like, and she's in meetings too, mind you, like every day with like the founders of...

Uber and Lyft and Google and Facebook. Like she's surrounded by all of these white men and she is just trying to fit in. So I can give her a little, but it's like, you're making it so much worse for yourself, but it's crazy. Yeah. And also like, she doesn't, she's not a good like leader or boss. So it's like, sweetie, don't do it. Oh my God. You know, they're all just talking behind her back. Yeah. Like, why are you so haunting? And in the documentary, it's showing people that even like the risk, the first receptionist that she hired and everything, um,

And she's like, Elizabeth was really hard to figure out. Like, she did meet with every single person that ended up being employed. Oh, that's good. But even the receptionist was like, she didn't blink. You couldn't figure out any sense of her personality. She had really insane posture. This voice was obviously fake. Like, it must have just been a scary work environment. So Theranos is growing. Great job, Tess. Thank you. Thank you. Like, who?

Theranos is growing. So by even like end of 2004, she is up to 700 employees in less than a year. 700 employees for like a thing that's not even real yet? Well, the thing is...

The thing that's like crazy about it is that she's not really giving details to any person that she's employing. It's kind of like these vague sort of explanations and these people are like, this isn't that weird because tech a lot of the times has this sort of like, we can't give you too much because this is secret. And there's just so much money out there that she has that venture capital guy that knows all the people with so much money to be like, yeah, out there –

I'll throw out a couple thousands that mean nothing to me and hopefully will make me a lot of money. Exactly. Now I'm like, was it 700? I don't actually know the timing it was 700 employees. At one point, though. I'm going to fact check. I know by the end there were 800 and I know it grew very quickly. But maybe it wasn't. I don't know the exact time that it got to 700. But it exploded. And hopefully it is Theranos.

I think it's there now. Okay, we'll see. Yeah. Even like initially within the first few months when that Channing guy helped her get funding, she had already raised $6 million to fund the firm like that. Holy shit. And she's doing all of this in stealth mode, which means a company doesn't have press releases or a company website or they're not really talking about what they're doing because like I was saying, it's very like this is revolutionary. Right. It's changing the world, but we need to keep it hush hush.

Which is interesting for the story because she doesn't have to talk about, like, she doesn't have to prove what it is for a really long time. That's crazy. It's a lot of, like, dreams. Well, hey, I wish we could get $6 million for our dream. I do too, Claire. I do too. But stealth mode is something that happens when a company wants to avoid competitors. Right. So no one's batting an eye. Right. Everyone's like, sure. This is all, like, so we're doing such a great thing. We're so excited to be working for you. Yeah.

And then throughout the next couple years, she's getting this top-notch team of people. She's hiring Apple designers. And, you know, they're focusing on this design of the Edison. And what is the Edison? Named after Thomas Edison. Right. The Edison device looked like a black rectangular box about the size of a desktop printer with a screen in front and was meant to process the tiny blood test samples. Elizabeth wanted the screen to resemble the iPhone screen.

And she kind of like wanted it all to look like Apple products. She's obsessed with Steve Jobs. Do you think that's why she started wearing turtlenecks? In like all of her early interviews, she's like, well, Steve really told me. Oh my God. Like a vampire. Steve Jobs and Stassi Schroeder in Summer House with her bathing suit. It all goes back to Bravo. It all goes back to Bravo. So the Edison is like this. It's supposed to be this new thing that's going to like you just need a little print.

prick of your finger and then they put it into this box and then that will tell you everything that you need to know about your health. Yeah.

I mean, it's because you're not getting vials of blood taken, but it's like, still have to do a little prick. That sucks. I know. Prick can be scary, too. Yeah, it really can. But a prick versus having to have it into, I won't get into details. We all know what it's like to get your blood drawn. It's not pleasant. And so imagine people's reactions of hearing about this. And investors are like, if this is possible, and she says it is, and she has the best team of chemists, engineers, doctors, like, we're going to invest in this.

I mean, it's a good idea if it was possible. Yeah. It's like I have an idea right now. Right. That you could fly. Yeah. Wouldn't it be great? Or time travel. Yeah. And it's like, let's just get. And so it just does show that like, you know, with money and it's just, it's all kind of manipulative and a little eerie actually. Confidence is key. Yeah. Let this be a lesson. Just go out basically being like, I can do it. Yeah. Yeah.

So more about the team. Elizabeth met former U.S. Secretary of State George Shultz, and shortly afterwards, he too became a board member of

With the help of his connections, the board was filled with influential people from politics and business, including Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of Defense. Well, Henry Kissinger was on Watergate. Yes. Oh, my God. This is like the most Ramfield episode. This is a Ramfield episode. Former Secretary of Defense William Perry, former General Jim Mattis, and former Wells Fargo Bank CEO Richard S.

Wow, that is crazy. So think about this team. And it's like, obviously, like, that just looks really good to more investors. So it's just like the more money keeps coming in. Sonny was still running some shit. And he was known, which is funny because weren't we just talking about this in the Jessica episode? He was known for using, like, big technical terms that he didn't understand and, like, big words to get people to think that. Very John Mayer-like. Very John Mayer-like. Totally. Wow. Yeah.

He's a trash man. Yeah. And something's a little fishy all of a sudden. And people are like, wow, we've been here a long time in these labs. People that work outside of the labs are like, why can't we go in? People working in the labs are like, this is really hard to like,

Figure out. Like, what are we actually doing here? And, like, these, like, geniuses that are, like, why isn't this working? And just, like, testing a bunch of things being, like, huh. Who's the scientist at the top? Do you know? I don't know who the scientist is. I mean, it's, like, look at...

him or her and be like what are we i mean the stanford dude that channing guy was like head of science and engineering and i think even he's just trying to figure it out and be like if i can yes it's gonna be major i don't think that they're like oh fuck this isn't gonna work but i think they're just like this is proving to be rather difficult um so justin maxwell he was a designer um

that worked for the company said it wasn't long before he realized that they were designing a technology that didn't really exist. Maxwell recalled learning from other employees that the technology wasn't working and the science just wasn't matching up. It became clear that without technology, the designers became unnecessary. We actually can't provide value to this company right now if the foundation isn't working, Maxwell remembered thinking. Well, yeah. So they're just like,

We got like way ahead of ourselves here. Way ahead of ourselves. At this time too, there is a huge office. There is like, I mean, it's like stunning. It's like, I think she modeled it after Apple. Oh my God. I know, like enough. Taylor Armstrong, enough. Taylor Armstrong. Yeah.

And then on top of that, Elizabeth arranged the company so that everyone was purposely siloed. What does that mean? So I think it means that like you don't really talk to other people in different departments. Well, that's never good. Yeah. I mean, like anything in life, if you're like.

It's like a cult where they're like you can't like they turn you against your friends or families that people like question you. Exactly. It's very kind of like severance. Like you never watch that show, right? No, but I know like I need to. It's I mean, I really enjoyed it the first season and they keep departments separate. So it's like you don't actually know what's happening at this company. I mean, it's like sketchy. Yeah. Very toxic work environment. Yeah. Employees weren't supposed to communicate with each other about their tasks.

They were also advised not to reveal the company name on social media sites like LinkedIn. See, like all that stuff, especially talking to your employees, that would make me be like, but why? Yeah. And like there comes a time where it's like we get that you're trying to keep this secret for like competitors, but also like. You have so many employees though. I'd be like scared to go into work. I mean, truly though. So when anyone would challenge Elizabeth or ask important questions about the technology or the progress of the company.

Um, she said she was, she would, people said that she would deflect and that her responses were more of a non-answer or an evasive answer. All right, Rammies, who's tired? Who needs a break? Whether you're taking care of your kids, you know, we love our Rammie moms, a senior loved one or juggling both, God bless. We all need and deserve a break sometimes. Care.com can help give you that break by helping you find trusted caregivers in your neighborhood.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place.

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everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan your wedding from

the couch do it wherever you want because this is all about you so here's what you're going to do you're going to start planning at zola.com that's z-o-l-a.com you can thank me later which isn't a cute look no deflection wow yeah hold it up hold up the mirror we love candace for you deflecting we love you yeah we love you and claire this is the most troubling part about this entire story

So there were some cancer patients involved. Oh, no. And Elizabeth had made a deal with a major drug company that they would test on terminally ill cancer patients in a study taking place in Tennessee. These were patients who were in third and fourth stage oncology cancer patients at the University of Tennessee who had given their blood to test this device. And so...

They were testing these patients, and it wasn't working. Like, none of – they weren't able to get results. And they were like, why isn't this working? So do you mean, like, get results? Like, what were they trying to get results from? Just, like, everything in their blood to see if they're, like, healthy? Yeah, like, you know, a big part of getting your blood drawn is white – like, your white and red blood cell count. That just shows your immune system. And so they're trying to test on these patients to be, like –

This is what your levels look like now. This is what your white blood... I think the white blood cell count is a very important one, especially if your immune system is compromised. And so, like, the technology just isn't working and the patients are like, what'd you find out? Yeah. And they're like...

it seems like the device the Edison device there was light seeping in when we did it so actually all of that we have to scratch because I don't think it reacts well to sunlight you guys and all of them are like what and like why did we just give all of our time yeah to do this and so like they're coming up with excuses even to cancer patients when they're looking for answers about these treatments that's fucked up and nothing that's fucked up so this is when it just gets like

Unethical. Yeah. Okay. And it goes from like an idea to now they're involving sick people. Yeah. And lying to them. Yeah, exactly. So it doesn't matter to Elizabeth. She's like, we'll get it right. And so she just is like. And so is she, I wonder if she's like, fuck, I really am realizing I can't figure this out.

I can't pinpoint, like, in the research of the moment that she's like, I know that this isn't going to work, but I have so much money on the line. Yeah. Oh, the anxiety. I think it's probably right before huge... So...

Walmart's Walton family. Yeah, the Waltons. Invested your hometown and my hometown. Guys, what is this episode? This is crazy. That is crazy. Walmart was started in my hometown. We love. She's a Walmart girly. A Walmart girly. For better or for worse. My God.

So that family invested $150 million. Stop. Stop. Media mogul Rupert Murdoch put in more than $120 million, while former Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos contributed $100 million.

So, guys, at this point, this is close to being a billion dollar investment without a product that is working on people, without it doing anything. They have, like, some of the most important influential people in the entire world. So I truly believe that even before this, she knows that this is physically impossible and this is scientifically impossible. And now she's getting, you know...

close to a billion dollars and she's getting okay and they're about okay so and is she like living a life of luxury she's she lives I think in Walnut Creek is that a nice neighborhood in Palo Alto um it's close to Palo Alto yeah it's it's nice it's like it's up it's up did she ever live in Palo Alto

She's not like she's in the labs constantly. She's not really like gallivanting about. She's not like traveling that much. She's like obsessed with like being staying close. And it's time for the company company to go public because this whole time, you guys, it has been a secret. It hasn't been a public company. And so in September 2013, after like, I guess, almost 10 years of developing this, they're going public. Yeah.

So like going public to sell stocks. They're going public with their first partnership with Walgreens to launch in-store blood sample collection. So like you could like do it. I don't know if you could do it on yourself or if they're doing it there for you. Either way, it's like so accessible to Walgreens. Walgreens. That's crazy. And it does not work. Billion dollars in this.

So, media attention increased. In 2014, Elizabeth appears on the cover of Forbes, The New York Times, Inc. Forbes recognized Elizabeth as the world's youngest self-made female billionaire and ranked her 110 on the Forbes 400 in 2014. Somehow Theranos is now valued at $9 billion. It's not even king. It's not.

happening. Literally nothing is happening. And had raised more than $400 million in venture capital. What? By the end of 2014, her name appeared on 18 U.S. patents and 66 foreign patents. She is like Thomas Edison. My God. Truly. And by 2015, Elizabeth established agreements with Cleveland Clinic, Blue Cross, and

Amory Health and yeah, so those are the big three. And yeah. Yeah, but like Blue Cross? What? It's happening. They're all like, this is great. We're so excited. Like this is going to change everything. But it hasn't even been working once. No. Has it worked once? No. It's happening. No, this thing doesn't work. You cannot get, you cannot, you cannot prick yourself and that cannot test. Like for everything. 15, you know, like your yearly physical, I think, tests.

tests usually 10 to 15 different things. And is it because that's just such a little amount of blood? Like you have to just have a lot more? You just have to have a lot more. I don't know the science behind it, but like you just can't. Yeah. You just can't. Right. So at its height, she had more than 800 employees. And like I mentioned, it's almost $10 billion. There's still no proof. There's no evidence. It is all so sketchy. And because of this like recent, you know,

that she has had. Now people are like, wait, what? Yeah, it's a little dangerous to get a little famous. Truly W-U-T period. What? What? So remember that guy that we talked about at the beginning of the episode? He's a Wall Street journalist, John. Yeah. Kara, now it's spelled Kara 4. So I think it's Kara U or something. John, he receives a little tip from a medical expert who was like, dude, what is going on? Like,

This Edison device is sketchy. I don't think it works. Why are we not hearing patient stories? I bet there were so many people in the medical field that were like, what is this? Shit talking it together. When she first was trying to fund this, every single person that she went to was like, that's not possible. Now, especially when she's getting all this money and I think also people are competitive and they're like, well, if this does work, I need to find out about it because then they would produce a competitor product or whatever.

So, John's like, I'm going to go speak to people that have left the company. And I'm going to try to obtain some company documents. I love journalists. I know. They're like, let's get. They just love the drama. Let's get down to business to defeat Theranos. Theranos. And you said it right. White coats us. Oh, my God. So, Elizabeth heard that this is happening. And she's like, oh, shit. They're coming for me. They're coming for me. Like, we knew this day would come.

She immediately hires a lawyer named David Bones to stop John. David Bones. What a lawyer name. David Bones. Which he started just, like, threatening John, you know, legally and financially. And John's like, you can't really do anything. Yeah, because I'm talking to people who, well, did they sign stuff? But also, like, he can still go do stuff. Yeah, I think they...

I think they probably all were under like – I'm sure that they signed stuff. Especially because Elizabeth was like, this doesn't work. So I need to make sure that no one's talking. If they can't even talk to people in their own company, they definitely have like a fat NDA. Totally. She's just like the ultimate like mean girl that's like bullying all these people and being like, don't worry. I promise that like you'll be invited to the party. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like she's just like making everyone keep little secrets. Like she's like not a nice woman. Yeah. It's not okay. Yeah.

So then John is like, nothing is stopping me. And you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to come out with a bombshell article. Oh, go off, John. We love that. So this article comes out that says that Edison gives inaccurate results and that the company had been using commercially available machines. So like that they basically had been taking blood machines that already existed to do company testing when someone needed proof of something. Like,

Essentially, this Edison device doesn't work. And when they were panicking about that, they would use like...

already manufactured machines that would work to be like, see, look, it does. It actually works and like take more blood. And take more blood. So just doing literally what a normal blood test is. Exactly. But they're like, no, this one did it with a prick. So like they're like. Lying. So now they're like actively lying. And a lot of her, some of her employees left. Some of them still like didn't really know what was going on. Kind of like ignorance is bliss. And like, I think these weren't like terrible people. I think.

I'm sure a few of them were like, I don't care. This is like good money. I also think a few of them were like, well, what if this can and like, let's keep trying and let's try to like revolutionize healthcare. Yeah. So I don't think it's all like black and white. Yeah. I hope not. But there probably were some people that were like, who cares? We're getting so much money. Exactly. Yeah. Um,

So, you know, John really hates Elizabeth. He even wrote a book called Bad Blood, Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup, which detailed more of the investigations. Now he's just going bald. He wrote a full book. Oh, my God. He really hates her. He's like, I'm going to bring this woman down. Wow. And Elizabeth just denies, denies, denies. She's like, this is a tabloid scheme. And she's like, of course, we're going to publish all accuracy of the test soon. Test is pretty good. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

And she gets really defensive. Okay, I'll do one more quote in her voice. Because Dalton said he wanted this. Yes, my brother-in-law said that he wanted the whole episode. He wanted the whole episode. She says, this is what happens when you work to change things. First, they think you're crazy. Then they fight you. And then all of a sudden you change the world.

This is what happens when you have a theater kid. Exactly. And this is why we're here, folks. That was stunning work. Thank you. Amanda Seyfried who? I mean, thank you. I don't know how she does it because immediately I've been doing that. Sweating. Sweating. I think you have to train for it. My abs were engaged. It was like doing like a sit-up. Thank you for your service. Of course. That was beautiful to witness. I think I can speak for all of us. Hey, if you want more of that, Patreon. I could do a whole episode of Patreon in that place. I was like, please don't. You don't have to do it.

So let's talk about the downfall, Claire. Oh my God. So in January 2016, the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services sent a warning letter to Theranos after an inspection of its California labs. They were like,

Okay. No. It was like not up to code or like there's nothing happening? I think they were just like at this point there's nothing happening. What you guys are promising hasn't happened in years. Like what's going on? Also, who leaves right before or right after the investigation? What's his face? Sonny. Sonny. Sonny's like, peace out.

He's like, oh, shit. Elizabeth in testimony says that she fired him. And Sonny says, no, like I left on my own because the company was trash. Who broke up with who? Exactly. Remember the text. It's all high school, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. Everything is just repetition of high school. I know. It never leaves us. She ends up meeting this guy around this time named William Villy Evans, who was the heir to Evan Hotels. Do you know what that is? No. I don't know what that is either, but apparently he's rich. Villy? Yeah.

William Ville. William Ville. Evans. He was 27. I'm like, how old was she at this time? Oh, God. She was like 19 in 2003. And then this is 2013? This is 2017. Oh. So then... She's like 29? No, because if it was 2003, she was 19. And it's 2017. It's like literally just add four years. So she's...

I can't do it. 19, 29, 30, 31, 32. She's like 32 or 33. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Claire, for doing that. I just like immediately started sweating yet again. That was crazy. It's like...

literally the most basic math um but i need to be able to like write it out claire and i were on did we say the story that we had a meeting the other day um for oh yeah what was that and they started giving out number oh my god and we thought they were gonna test us on it this guy was like oh this is what we can do for you essentially yeah um and he's like so if it's 20 this and you get this and blah blah blah and like we were both like frozen and we could just feel each other be like don't

ask us please don't ask us I'm just sweating oh nothing is scarier no math is just terrifying truly

So she's dating William. This isn't like a great time in her life because she's like being investigated. But they end up getting married, maybe not legally married because like there's no – they call each other like partners but never husband and wife. They end up having two kids together. Oh, she has kids? I had no idea she had kids. They have one together like during this time and then another later. Oh, later. Okay. We'll talk. We'll talk because it's just like, oh, God, that's tough.

So the CMS, the Center for Medicare Regulators, proposed a two-year ban on Elizabeth from owning or operating a certified clinical lab after the company had not fixed any of their problems. She goes on the Today Show and she's like, oh my God, I should have fixed these problems earlier. It's just the equipment. It's just malfunctions. And people are like –

Enough with this story. It's crazy. She's just like on the Today Show talking about this. Yeah, I mean, she's talking about it even like at the height of when everything was like the downfall. She's still going on all these talk shows being like, guys, you need to wait. Things like this. You can't change the world in even 10 years. Give us another. Give us more money and then we can do this. She really is like, she's an odd duck. Yeah. She's just an odd duck.

So Walgreens is like, peace out. We've had enough of you. We've had enough of you. Like, truly. They're like, forget it. The state of Arizona sues her because they're like, you had sold us 1.5 million blood tests to Arizonians while not saying what was in the tests. 99% of Theranos shareholders reach an agreement with hotel company. Evan? Hotel Evan? Yeah.

To dismiss all litigation in exchange for shares or preferred stocks. I don't know what hotel I may have meant with the company. Oh. So basically people are just dropping like flies. Okay. And Elizabeth is kind of now like, okay, I don't see how I'm going to be able to make this work. Like people are coming after me left and right. So most of the company quits. It starts the process of result dissolving and...

The court comes for her. And they're coming for her because she is selling things under false pretenses. Yes. They come for her for a few things. So, like legally. So in July 2018, so this is like a few years after even the start of the investigation. It takes just such a long time for these things to happen. A federal grand jury indicted...

Indicted. Uh-huh. You got it. Thank you. Indicted Elizabeth and Sonny. Because remember, Sonny was like, I mean, Sonny can't, he can run. But he can't hide. Sonny, you've been in it, babe. And this is what they first are getting them for. Nine counts of wire fraud. Really? Mm-hmm. So they were like saying that, what is wire fraud again? Do you think wire fraud is like because they're getting all of this money from these investors that it's like, but where is it going?

Going. Like, it's not going where they say that it's going. Yeah, because, like, they're kind of just, like, creating this, like, fake business. Yeah. So could that be wire fraud? Yeah. I actually couldn't really figure that out. I'm not sure, but that sounds right to me. That's just my... Or, like, maybe they're pocketing more than, like, they say they are, too. That probably makes sense. Yeah, I don't know. And then two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Mm.

So who knows what this wire fraud is about? So we have to figure out what wire fraud is. Do your homework. And then we can talk. Try to connect the dots for us because this is where I was like, what? What? Both pleaded not guilty. Prosecutors allege that Elizabeth and Sonny engaged in two criminal schemes, one to defraud investors and the other to defraud doctors and patients.

So the prosecution, I'm like, who – so are they representing like the patients and the investors as a whole? The people that were like bamboozled. Yeah, the people versus Elizabeth Holmes. I think so. Okay.

So this is when Elizabeth, as you can guess, officially steps down as CEO. It's time. But she still remains chair of the board. Like the company isn't fully like, you know, it's like a long breakup. Yeah. Where just things are still like there a little bit. Well, and they probably were like, you need to step down now. Yeah. But she's still like, but like, I'm going to have faith that, you know, so she's holding on. On November 18th, 2022, U.S. District Judge Edward Davila sentenced Elizabeth to

to 11 years in prison and ordered her to surrender by April 27th. Tessa's birthday. Wow. This episode has just had so many little things. Who would have thought? 2023. The sentence included, this is funny, a fine of $400 or $100 for each count of fraud, which like, isn't that much money? $400? Yeah. Or how many counts of fraud were there? I think before there was just nine. So I'm like, what?

And a three-year supervised release after the prison term. This was in 2022? This was in 2022. The judge recommended that she be incarcerated at Federal Prison Camp Bryan in Texas, a minimum security facility with limited or no parameter fencing. Yeah.

Just minimum security? Like it's not super intense? Because it's just not people that are like violent offenders. Got it. It's people who are bamboozled people. Like Jen Shah. Erika Jayne should have been there. No kidding. Just saying. Just saying. Allegedly. Tom Girardi should definitely be there. Truly. Yeah. Truly. It's like all the pop culture people in one jail. Literally this is the jail for probably

Elizabeth made some unsuccessful appeals, and on May 17, 2023, the judge ruled that she must surrender to custody on May 30. They were a little bit lenient to her because they were like, she just had a second baby during this time. Oh, that sucks. I know. So they were like, do what you got to do to figure out child care, but you got to surrender, babe. Oh, that sucks. You got to surrender. I know. Is it boy or girl, Tina? Huh?

She had her first son was a boy Her first son was a boy Her first child was a boy And I don't know what the second child was So she was ordered to pay $452 million To the victims of the fraud Which I'm sure includes like investors And all the people that believed in her And the chairman and all of that stuff Elizabeth and Sunny were equally responsible For the full amount Because they were kind of the ones that like Started it all

Elizabeth surrendered to custody at that prison on May 30th. Did Sonny get sentenced? Sonny also did as well. I don't know where he went. Yeah, he went somewhere. But he sure did too. And in July 2023, the Bureau of Prisons website projected that Elizabeth could be released from prison two years early after serving 85% of her sentence according to guidelines for good conduct time. So she might get out in nine years. I think so.

It was 2023 that she went in. Uh-huh. She's got eight more years. He's like, oh, that stresses me out. I know. I know. And then this is what this I think this was a cut article that said in a shock to absolutely no one convicted scammers, Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shaw have apparently bonded in prison, according to People.

The magazine reports that between graduating from anger management classes, tutoring fellow inmates who want to get GEDs, and teaching a workout class called... No. Shemazing abs. Stop! Guys, Jin Shaw is the shush! She is... This whole episode is so Ramco-ed. It is so Ramco-ed! Shemazing!

Amazing. Isn't it too much? What did she, what was her tagline before she went in? She was like, the only thing I'm guilty of is being amazing. Oh my God. That's our new opener too. Um, it says, yeah, truly. It says Shaw 49 has somehow found time to take on a motherly role to 38 year old Elizabeth Holmes inside the Brian Texas facility. Um,

Quote, their situations brought them together and they have a good understanding of one another. They're getting through it together. Chris Giovanni, Shaw's rep, has said. Okay. Whoever is listening, we hear our cry. Tess and I need to go to this prison and do an exclusive interview two-on-two with Jen Shaw and Elizabeth Holmes. A hundred percent. It has to happen. Just like us just sitting back and being like,

I think we should wear this too. Tell us about the pain. Tell us about the pain. What was the loneliness like? In our Ask Us Anything interview where we ended up interviewing each other. I was like, thought I was Katie Holmes for an hour. Katie Holmes? Katie Holmes.

And Katie Holmes, too. Yeah, Katie Couric. No, I was about to say she could come, too, but she'll steal our shine. So it's just the two of us. She's too good. We just need to be like, we need to put our reporter hats on. And just like, you know, have a safe place for both of them. Because that's the story of Theranos and Elizabeth. It's just like, you can't lie. You can't lie. You can't just keep taking money when nothing is happening. You got to show some progress. You got to show some proof. Yeah. And...

Don't be a weirdo. Yeah, that's the most important lesson, really, if we can take anything away from this. Yeah, just be nice to your employees. Yeah. You know.

And that's that. It's just like people are so all these people that think they're going to get away with it. But I guess there are so many people that do get away with this kind of shit that we just don't even realize. I know. But sometimes I'm like, does anything work? I know. Like if you really start thinking about it, you're like, do the COVID test work? Well, we can't even go down. Well, now they don't because they're expired. And yeah, all of the ones in my house. It's like I probably did have COVID like two months ago. But we'll never know.

So... Wow, Tess, great job. What a crazy ride. It was different. And, you know, you never... Thanks for the suggestion. Or, you know, you guys wanted it. Yeah, I loved it. And anytime we can talk about, like, Bravo again, I just, like, want to know what's going on in there. I do. Like, what are they talking about right now? I've got... Well, actually, it's... I don't know. What? I was about to say, like, I'm glad that she's, like, teaching other women. But I'm like, I don't know if she's the one you really want to be taught from. I know. I mean...

She's a smart girl. She's got ahead of herself. It's true. And I just think she was never like empathetic or kind of had to, you know, had this whole story of like, my uncle inspired me and my fear and all this stuff. And like kind of saying that as a performative thing and then just like taking advantage of cancer patients who you said that your whole life.

heart of this was for your uncle who died of cancer. It's not a good look. She's delusional. Delusional. Yeah. And this is, do the posture of how she talks to people in interviews. Guys, look on Spotify or YouTube. This is literally like if she's right now, like I'm interviewing her on 60 Minutes. This is how she is sitting. Which is not okay. It's just not okay. I do really have to pee right now. So this is soothing me, honestly, for a minute.

I know she's got it all figured out. I'm going to look in the camera. Yeah. This is how we're going to... Oh, it does feel good on the lower back, actually. I know. God. Maybe there is something to this. Yeah. Actually, maybe good for her.

Maybe good for her. Maybe she really completely changed her mind. Yeah. She's a hero. And that's that, guys. And yeah, that's our episode of Elizabeth Holmes. If you like this episode, please share it, guys. Like, it makes such a difference. When you share a story or an episode on your story, a rammy gets their wings.

Wow. That's beautiful. That is like literally the only way to put it. I know. I know. Yeah. It just helps us so much. Please, please sign up for Patreon, which will soon be a different subscription. Yeah. But for now. But for now, we're going to get you guys all, you know. Moved over when we need to. Moved over. Sign up for Patreon.

Buy some merch. We still have t-shirts left. Send your friend an episode that you like of Ram. We just want to keep building this community. We want to be on the charts every week. We really want to be on the charts. We're 185 this week. Yep. Which is actually cool because it's like. We'll take it. That's all the history podcasts in the world. That's right. That's major. But we want to be top 10. We do. Let's get to top 10 people and just share, share, share. Share. And we love you so much and we'll talk next week. Bye Rammies. Mwah.