Cleopatra Was The First It Girl
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Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. I'm Claire Donald. And I am Tess Palomo. And y'all, we have a very, very special guest today. We have Quaid... Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. And y'all, we have... Quaidie from Queens. Quaidie from Queens. We have Katie from Queens podcast on today. Thank you, Spotify Mashups, for putting us together. Katie! Hi!

Welcome. Oh my goodness. I am so excited to be here. We are so excited to have you. Y'all are so much fun. This show is so cute, so I was so excited to come. Thank you. And-

Talk some shit with y'all. Oh, my God. We love talking shit. Yeah. We have a lot of crossover of listeners. And also the subject that we are talking about today has been very highly, highly requested. And so people are going to lose it. I'm just saying. People are. And we've been watching y'all for a while. There was actually, we saw a DM from, I think, 2021 that we sent to you guys. And we were like, hi, we're a new history podcast. Oh, my goodness. And we just would love some advice. Yeah. I hope I responded.

responded. No, we're so excited. Girl, you are booked and busy. You are charting constantly. Constantly. So we are so excited to have you on today. Yes. I am so excited to be here. I, you know, just to get on my little soapbox for a minute, I feel like history podcasting is such a sausage fest. Oh, 100%. And so I love seeing female identifying people out there doing it. And I love seeing people that

of any gender being not boring about it. Because it's, it is, history is just gossip that you can get a PhD in. I mean, wow, nothing has been more beautiful. That's right. That's what we say all the time. And so, I am so happy

to come here and talk shit with y'all about some ancient history. We love talking to you about ancient things. Yes, we do. And then if you could tell us a little bit more for our Rammies about what Queens is exactly. So Queens podcast is me and my friend Nathan. We've been friends since we were 11 years old. Oh my God. Really? So like our entire lives basically. And so when people were like, how do y'all get your chemistry like that? I'm like, we grew up together.

up together. Oh, that's so special. We pair cocktails with women in history. Nathan makes the cocktails and then we do the biography. And we've been, this is our seventh year. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so crazy. And it's just so much fun. Like literally when we started it, I had no expectations. I was like, maybe I can meet like two or three other nerds. Yeah. And I

And look at you now. And now here I am in Los Angeles with you now.

I mean, that's the best thing to have, like, no expectations going into anything creative. And, like, Claire and I very much had the same thing. We're just like, we like to talk about some nerdy shit. We also like to have a cocktail, smoke a joint. Yeah, we sure do. I can't – I can have a cocktail and do the podcast. I cannot smoke a joint and do the podcast. I'm not against it. It's just the story would never – It's very challenging. You can tell from our episodes, amazing.

Which ones we are smoking on. Yeah. We did one. We covered Bob Marley recently. And so we were like, of course we have to get a little high. And I was hosting. Man, it was harder than I imagined. I bet. To be able to like read and be high is just, it's a skill set all on its own. And to like not overanalyze what you're saying. My ADHD is bad.

barely kept control of when I'm sober. I understand. When I'm high, it's just – I call them rabbit holes when I go on little side quests, you know, in storytelling. It's just all rabbit holes when I'm high. And it's just impossible. Nathan is a little bit more skilled. He can do that a little bit better. But I'm always like, let's get the story out of the way and then – Exactly. Editing high, however. Oh, actually, that's –

actually that's kind of a fun thing that is like a little gorgeous thing yeah because you're like it's almost like a video game analytical yes about it it's internal yeah look at us we're just workshopping here let's all get high more often after

If we can take anything away from this episode. I'm going to the airport after this. Oh, that's your being high on a plane. That's a whole other experience. No, being high and navigating an airport that you've never really been to before. Oh, you've never been to LAX before? No, this is my first time in LA. Oh, good luck. Buckle up, Buttercup. Yeah, so I'm going to be super sober for that. You have the pre-check. You are good. I got the pre-check, so I'm not going to be in line with the peasants. No, no, no. Of course not. We can't. I'm just going to clarify. I'm joking. Of course. The Grammys now. If people don't know me, that would be a stupid thing to say. They know our style. Yeah, they know us. Yeah.

We are so excited to be talking about Cleopatra. Cleopatra. The one and only. She was our second episode we ever did. And I just, she's so fascinating. So let's start there. What do y'all think of when I say Cleopatra? Cleopatra.

Like what comes to your mind? Honestly, the first thing that comes to my mind, and I probably am not alone in this, but is Elizabeth Taylor. That's what I was going to say too. Historically very inaccurate. But I just – we did an Eight Marriages with Elizabeth Taylor episode. And so obviously we talked about Cleopatra and that. And then besides – eyeliner. The eyeliner was eyeliner-y. Yeah. Yeah. I think it might be a myth.

of how she died is what I think of. The snake bite? The snake. Yeah. Okay, so that's like... Oh my God, I'm like, what? Yeah, I'm like, but that might not be true. That's probably not true, but that's... Okay, but we'll see. But that's what I think of, just that she put a snake to her neck. Oh my God. Yeah. I don't know any of this shit. Well, this is why I'm here. Yeah, exactly. But that's really it. Okay. Interesting. I'm just always...

interested to see like where we're starting off. It's very bare minimum, I'd say. Yeah, Katie sent us over her notes and Tess and I were like, we're not even gonna look at this. Okay, you're gonna go in completely. We love going in blind. Yes. Perfect. I love that. Okay. So what we're going to start with is Cleopatra was probably born in 69 BC in Alexandria, Egypt to the Ptolemy dynasty. So that's the dynasty she's coming from.

And I want to do a little preface. I don't know if a lot of people know. Let's set the scene a little bit with her family because her family is actually Greek. They're not Egyptian. She was not Egyptian. She was Greek. Have you all ever heard of the name Alexander the Great? Yeah. He was a Greek king who like just – anytime somebody has the great in their name, it's usually because they expanded the lands of wherever they are. And so they conquered Egypt. Okay. And he –

there was this dude named Ptolemy, which is spelt with a P at the beginning. Oh God, always hard. Yeah.

Why? For what? For what? It's rude. But anyway, it is rude. It's a little rude. Just to like make you feel dumb. So you accidentally say Ptolemy somewhere. Right. And we would do that. Yeah, absolutely. So no, Alexander's friend Ptolemy, who may have been his cousin or maybe also his half brother, unclear, but his best, his bestie was a dude named Ptolemy. And after they conquered Egypt, he was like, I'm going to give this to you, Ptolemy. And Ptolemy was like, sweet. And so that's his dynasty. Yeah.

So that was about 300 years before Cleopatra was born. And to ensure that they remained Greek, they adopted this thing of the Egyptian pharaohs since forever married their sisters. Always tough. Always with royalty. Like, cut it out, guys. Yeah. You know what? At least with some of the other...

with all the incest, it's like cousins. Right. But you can still, I mean, like, hey, who amongst us we always say hasn't had one second cousin that you might be like, well, you have your cousins and then you have your first cousin. Are we all advocating for incest right now? We're like, I support it. Just learned something about you. Why not? I'm just kidding.

That's why you guys come here. Exactly. But no, so are y'all Game of Thrones girlies? Yes. Okay. So you look hesitant. Okay. So I'm...

Ugh, such a nerd. Like, when it comes to the game, like, I read the books. I read House of Dragon, all that. George R.R. Martin pulls a lot from real historical figures, and I'm pretty sure the Targaryens are based on the Ptolemies. Okay. Because of, like, the sibling marriages and stuff like that. Right, right, right. And because everybody has the same fucking name. Well, do you think that's, like, why, like, because Cleopatra was, like, the strong female queen that, like, Daenerys? Maybe. I don't know that.

Daenerys is not necessarily Cleopatra, but I think the Targaryens, because in the House of Dragon book, and I'm sorry, I'm such a nerd. No, no. You've got to stop apologizing for that. You're in the right place. Yes. It is safe. They're like, oh, the reason the Targaryens can marry each other is because, like, they

they contain dragons. And so we need to keep that blood going. And that's the reason that the Targaryens marry brother and sister and no one else in Westeros can do it. The Ptolemies did the same thing. They were like, well, we're gods on earth. And so we have to intermarry. Sure, sweetie. So that wasn't, yeah. Whatever gets you through. It's really because, classism. Right. It's a small circle. Yes. Yes. And since they were Greek,

The Greeks viewed themselves as more superior to the native Egyptians. And so they wanted to keep that going. So it's very sexist. Not sexist. It's very classist, you know. But anyway, so that's what you need to know because a lot of people will be like, oh, Cleopatra, Egyptian. She was Egyptian. She was most likely like 95% Greek. Wow. And her mother was probably also her aunt. Oh.

We don't know for sure. We don't know 100% for sure who her mother was, but it was probably her dad's sister. Lovely. Also named Cleopatra. Because there's only three names. There's like, she is actually Cleopatra VII. Oh, okay. She is the seventh Cleopatra. Yes. But the only one that we know. Yeah. We were just talking about this on the Queen Elizabeth episode. It's like Elizabeth and Catherine and there's like Mary. There's also only three names. Yeah. Yeah. Not a lot of names. Yeah.

So, okay, so something I want to just disclaim up top in case anybody is really interested in learning more about this time period, or if you're like an expert in ancient Rome, Greek,

There are so many side quests. There are so many rabbit holes that I'm going to have to just skim over and not really go down. But I did want to suggest my friends have a show called Ancient History Fangirl. So if anybody is interested in learning more about anything that I discuss, they have like a whole season on Cleopatra. Oh, wow. Wow. And like all the other characters and everything. So Ancient History Fangirl, if you want a deeper dive, because

Because this could be every person in this story we could talk about for an hour. Yeah. Just on them. Totally. So I just wanted to shout out my friends because they're amazing. We love that. Let's start with her childhood. Cleopatra grew up in Alexandria and she was her dad's favorite.

Because back in history, it was just fine to be like, well, this is my favorite kid. Yeah, yeah. That's true. It's like, I really hate the other one. Yeah. Fuck those guys. Yeah. I mean, my mom has a favorite kid, but she doesn't say it out loud. I'll just say that. I always wonder, like, do you think they do? Yeah. I think that they do. I'd ask my mom this all the time growing up. I'd be like, are you mad? Like, if you're mad at me, but you hate him, right? You hate Adrian. She was like, no, I do not. I do not. I do not.

Cleopatra just had that je ne sais quoi. Yeah, it seems like it. She had charisma. She just had something about her. She was dripping in riz. Absolutely. Was she a cool girl, you think? I mean, something just made her dad go, well, this is the one that's going to continue the dynasty. Her dad was Ptolemy XII, and probably all her siblings got a good education, but Cleopatra

Cleopatra's is documented as she just like she took to her education like a fish to water. She was just so smart and she was the one that like if he had a meeting with some officials, she was the one that would go with dad. It was bring your daughter to work day. Do you think other people were like we don't want this like girl here? Yeah, I was going to ask. So it's…

The Egyptian culture, like women were never expected to rule on their own. But unlike a lot of the other ancient cultures at the time, they still did have power. Oh. So the Egyptian, like it was assumed she was probably going to marry one of her brothers and be...

the queen, you know, basically. And so it was assumed she was always going to have, at some point, have some powers. No, I think they would have been like, oh, like, cool. And she was just really... Everybody loved her. And she had this...

special gift with languages. She spoke like 10 languages. Goddamn. She was the first Ptolemy person in the Ptolemy dynasty to even bother to learn Egyptian. Oh, wow. Because they were Greek. And they're like, we don't need to know this. But she like, she just...

She just learned languages really easily. And there's not a whole lot that like survives on her from people that like her. Because it's always important to remember that with history this far back, especially lands that become conquered, spoiler alert, history is written by her enemies. Right.

So a lot of the things that you're going to learn, like the only sources from in her time are people that hated her. Oh, that sucks. Oh, that's so interesting. But still, it's interesting though that even though that's like what survives, one thing that does survive is like –

man, she was charismatic. And she just had this way of talking to people like they were the only person in the room. Like making everybody feel like they're the only person in the room. Damn. So dripping in charisma. We love. Basically, she's very, very smart. And so she's her dad's favorite. Her dad, however, sucked at being king. Pharaoh. His nickname through history, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it meant like the flute player because he played the flute. Yeah.

And that's all he ever wanted. He'd be like, you're trash if you play the flute. Oh, no, that's all he wanted to do. He didn't want – he just wanted to drink wine and play with his band. We've seen that. Which – Which same. Yeah, of course. Same, but I'm not Pharaoh. Right, got to get shit done. Yeah. And so he was really, really unpopular. Yeah.

And so he ends up in exile when she's like 11. And it's, we think she went into exile with him. He was just like maybe being like,

Well, you're my favorite and I've always shown you preferential treatment. So if I leave you here, you might. Because, ooh, people kill each other all the fucking time. That's so scary. Any step you make. Yeah. And who decides that he was going to exile just his people? So, yeah, like there was just like an angry mob and one of his daughters was kind of like the head of the angry mob. And they ran him out because he was, we're not going to have time to go into it, but he was like tight with Rome. And what do y'all know about the Roman Empire? Oh,

From this time. Not much. Now I'm just thinking about TikTok, which is a sick, sick thing. So Rome was really kind of just like, who run the world? Rome at this point. And they're just growing and growing and growing and being powerful. And Egypt was really nervous about being conquered by them. And so they didn't like that. The general public didn't like that dad was always borrowing money from...

And had friends in Rome and stuff like that. And so that's kind of why he got run out and went to Rome. That makes sense. And stayed with some friends in Rome. Yeah. It's like, drink some wine. Drink some wine. Let's try to get our lands back. Yeah. And so, yeah, we believe Cleopatra went to Rome with him. Oh, okay. Oh, and so they were in Rome probably for like four or five years until dad was basically like, okay, are y'all going to help me get Egypt back? And Rome gave him an army and he went and got Egypt back.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. During this time, Cleopatra was probably like 14. She met the head of the army was this dude named Mark Antony. He's going to come up again. Do y'all know this name? Yes. That's Richard Burton's character. I'm just picturing. I'm like, he's hot, right? He had to be hot. I mean, who knows? But like in our minds, we like to think that some of these historical men. Yeah. I mean, we'll get to it. But I think probably at this time he would have been like,

21 or something like that. So probably, and he was also charismatic. So they probably met for the first time when she was about 14 and he was the head of her dad's army. And he's like, I'm going to marry that girl one day. Oh,

Always. Later he will say that like he didn't fall in love with her right then but he was like something about her. That's what they say when they're trying to like justify being a pedophile. Attracted to a 14 year old girl. Who knows? There was something about her. We don't know if they actually met or if that was just like the lore. Yeah. So they get the backing of Rome go back to Egypt and

Ptolemy, Daddy Ptolemy gets back in power and they publicly execute her sister who had been running shit. Oh. Yeah. Damn. Her sister Berenice was unalived and she probably witnessed it. Like, because, I mean, they didn't fuck around. They were sending a signal like,

Y'all want to do another? Yeah. Y'all want to do another coup? Look what happens. Yeah. The bitch is back. The bitch is back. And you're gone now. The bitch is back and now this bitch is dead. Well, Cleopatra probably was just like numb to it, right? A little bit? It would have been normal. Yeah. Yeah. It wouldn't have been. That's just what you did. Yeah. That's the risk you ran when you overthrew somebody. I would not want to be in this time.

No, no, no. No. The fear. Absolutely not. No. So, yeah. So they are back. She watches her sister get executed. She's like 15. Childhood trauma. Yeah. You know? Just another day in life. Yep. Okay. So her dad's second rule is short. I don't know if it's like the stress of being run out of town and having to get it back and everything. But he...

He gets back into power and he knows he's in bad health. And so he's like, he names Cleopatra as his co-ruler and then dies. And then dies like a year later. And so she is now head of household, head of the country. But women can't rule on their own, you know? So she has to marry her brother Cleopatra.

You want to guess what his name is? Got to do it. Oh, what is her dad's name? Yeah, Ptolemy. Ptolemy. Ptolemy. She's got two brothers. Their names are Ptolemy and Ptolemus. Of course. Well, you need to keep track of your kids then. Yeah, sure. So now she is Cleopatra VII, and he is Ptolemy XIII, and he's 11. And she's like, at this point, she's like 18. Oh, my God. Do they have to have sex with each other? No.

So I don't think they ever do. But I mean, it was expected that they would have heirs eventually. But Cleopatra was just like... She's like, not with an 11-year-old. Like, maybe a brother. Absolutely. Not the 11-year-old. Not the 11-year-old. No. And so Cleopatra is a very natural ruler. And she's 18, which back then was...

a grown person. A wash up woman? No, no. She's all past 18. That's old enough to be like, I'm going to run shit. You're an adult. So what they would do back then is like the Pharaoh and his queen, they would be on coins together. They were expected to like be co-rulers, but he's 11. So he still has advisors and stuff. Like he's still going to school, you know? And she's like, I've been doing this since I was your age. I've been going to like,

So I'm just gonna, she mints coins with only her image on them. Oh, I love that, honestly. That's iconic. Yeah. It is iconic. And it's a controversy. And she's like, the, his, her brother's advisors are like, this bitch is trying to like,

steal your thunder. Yeah. And they're putting just like nasty shit in his mind. And so he's like, I need to take down my sister. And they go to civil war. Oh my God. Whoa. Yeah. And she actually gets run out of Egypt. Like, cause he's just got...

Just more the people are flocking to the pharaoh because patriarchy. Of course. Because patriarchy. Absolutely. Absolutely. So he's like, I don't want to share with a girl. So she's out of there. It's like acne starting to pop through. Yes. He's upset. His little mustache. That's really what he was upset about was his little mustache. And also I have to wonder, remember she's always been dad's favorite. So I wonder if it's also a bit of like sibling rivalry. Oh, for sure. Of like what –

Oh, you Miss Perfect over there. Yes. Cleopatra does everything right. It's the little sibling energy. Totally. Yes. Like no one ever listens to me. Exactly. And so she gets run out and goes to Cyprus, I believe. It's Cyprus or Syria. Somewhere. Somewhere over there. And so she like runs off and starts kind of planning like what am I going to do next? I'm definitely not going to stay here. Right.

She had inherited from her dad the because a lot of people like I was saying very anti-Rome. Let's not play ball with Rome at all because they're going to take us over. And they were right. But she was like, I got to get help from Rome. That's what dad did. And it worked. And so she's like biding her time, maybe sending notes to Rome being like, if you help me out.

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Yep. Kind of thing. So what do y'all know about a dude named Julius Caesar? We should all just kill Caesar. The mean girl. Just kill Caesar. Yes. Yes. Yes. He has a great salad and that's about it. Yeah. He's hot too, right? Must be. He is in, he's like the leader of Rome right now. He's a dictator, which is kind of like. Oh, not hot. Okay. So not at all. Physically. Physically.

Physically, he probably had like an eight pack, but mentally ripped. He's in his 50s. A zaddy? We don't mind that. I don't know why I'm trying to make you get caught. He was a ladies man. He had bitches. I forget everything I learned about him in history class. This is one of the things where I'm like, I know that I know, but I don't think I know. So what you need to know for this is that he is the leader of Rome right now. He's a very powerful dude. He is a ladies man.

He doesn't have a son, though. Well, he's worthless then. Does he have daughters? I think he has a couple illegitimate daughters. Of course. He's like, kill him. Who needs him? Okay, so...

Cleopatra's little brother makes a mistake. So there is... Julius Caesar is fighting with this guy named Pompey. Or Pompey, I think is how it's said. Pompey. So Julius Caesar is fighting with this Roman dude named Pompey. It's a frenemy situation, though. They're both Romans, so they consider themselves better than everybody. It's kind of like the situation where, you know, like, I can talk shit on my sister, but if you talk shit on my sister... Right. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So...

Little brother Ptolemy knows that. And also when, just to backtrack a little bit, when they were, when Cleopatra was in exile with her dad, they probably stayed with Pompey. So he's like a family friend. And so he's running from Julius Caesar and he comes, he ends up in Egypt thinking, oh, the Ptolemies are going to like give me a place to stay. And little brother's like, yeah, come here, come here. And then executes him to be like,

Caesar, look what I did. Oh, dark. And it does not work. Caesar is like, you killed a Roman. Oh. Yeah, that's not a good idea. Yeah. It backfired. Maybe 11-year-olds shouldn't be. Perhaps. And Cleopatra's sitting there in Syria just peeing like, you fucking idiot. She's like, I could have, like, told you. Yeah. Just watching the demise. You fucking idiot. So Julius Caesar gets there and he is...

And he's like, y'all need to stop this civil war. This is y'all are you're you're 11. Yeah. Once again, fucking stop it. And he's just like, this is bullshit. Like he's pissed the fuck off. And so Cleopatra at this point is like, well, this is a good time for me to like sneak back into Egypt and.

And so have you all ever heard the story or see the painting about Cleopatra in the carpet? No, I don't think so. Okay. Well, I'm going to take a quick break. I'm going to top off my drink. But when we get back, I'm going to tell you about their meet cute. Love. We love a meet cute. Of course we do. We love a meet cute. Okay. We'll be right back.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola.

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your wedding from the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. Okay. So are y'all ready to hear about adorable little meet cute? Let's probably didn't actually have a romance. Okay. Okay.

We can pretend. Yeah, exactly. So this is – there's a very famous painting of Cleopatra. It's here in my notes if y'all have ever seen this painting before. It was done in like Renaissance time. Oh, Gordon. Wow. You might sometimes see the painting with a top on. There's a version of it where they've painted over her titties. She looks amazing. She's a hot woman. Of course. Well, I mean this was painted in like –

thousand years after she was alive but okay this depiction of this story yeah he's like little waist yeah big ass show the boobs yeah so um the story goes is that because Cleopatra couldn't just get in to see she couldn't walk in the front door to see Caesar because her brother would see her

And there would be a riot. You know, he would come for her. And so the story goes is that she had one of like the people working for Caesar roll her up in a carpet, bring her, bring the carpet in, unroll the carpet. And there's Cleopatra. The drama. The entrance we love. She's a theater kid, isn't she? So that probably didn't happen. She probably was snuck in in like some kind of bag. Right.

Right, like you could probably do it in an easier way. Yeah. Like just put a hat on. Or a coat and be on someone's shoulders. Yeah, like that's good. She probably just bribed someone to get her in. But that's the – where's the drama in that? Of course. Oh, yeah. The story is that they unroll the carpet and there's sexy Cleopatra. She's just like naked. And he's like, oh my God. I mean like, hey Caesar. Whatever she did though, it charmed the fuck out of Julius Caesar. He was like –

Okay. He's probably already heard, too, that, like, she has. Oh, the girl. Charm. The girl is charming. She's an it girl. Yeah. She's. And so he was just like, whatever she did, he thought was very clever. He's like, it's working. He was like this. Yeah. Whatever she did, it was working. I wonder what her sign was.

A Leo, probably. Probably a Leo, yeah. Or Sagittarius, maybe. A fire sign. Fire sign. Yeah, totally. Fire sign would be my guess, yeah. But so she meets him somewhere or the other and is like...

I let's get rid of my brother. And he was like, whatever you say, angel. And he was like, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Let's get rid of your brother. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, she they they basically he tells them to make up. He's like, why don't you just make up and stop fighting? Little brother's not into it.

TLDR. We don't have time for the ins and outs of the Civil War. Little brother retreats because he doesn't... Rome is now on Cleopatra's side. He retreats and he ends up dead. There's lots of discussion. How did he end up dead? He drowned. Oof.

But so someone killed him, quote, quote, quote. He like had on his armor and like drowned in the water. But he probably, somebody probably drowned him. Yeah. Wow. But it's a little too convenient. No kidding. It's a little too convenient. Yeah. Just drowned. Yeah. So little brother is. Yeah. He's gone. He's gone. He's gone. He is gone.

She's got another brother named Ptolemy. Of course. One more. Then she has to marry. He is like a baby though. And like his advisors and stuff are like, let's just let Cleopatra do her thing. Like he's an actual baby. I mean, if the last one was 11 and this is the littler brother. Yeah. Yeah. He's young. There's not a whole lot of information on this guy. Right. He doesn't need to be. Yeah. But those advisors though like knew what was up. Yeah. They were just like, we're just not going to really fight this. Yeah. We saw what happened before. It's not good. It's not good.

So we don't know exactly when Cleopatra and Julius Caesar started their sexual relationship. Well, I had no idea these two hooked up. Same. They have a son. By the time she was 22, she was pregnant with Julius Caesar's baby. Wow. What was the reaction to this from the public?

That's a good question. I don't know because again all the primary sources on her are written from Rome. Right. So they're like it was disgusting. Yeah. But so let me rephrase that.

I don't know what the Egyptian. Right. Rome, it was not super popular. Okay. Because it was like, you know, in Egypt, women could be in a position of power so long as they were accompanied by a man. Right. In Rome, women, there were a lot of really powerful women, but they played from backstage. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. They pulled the strings backstage. Yeah.

Like, so for instance, I know y'all covered the wives of Henry VIII. Yes. So Henry VIII, you know, is Henry VIII. His wife was never Catherine VII. You know, like, whereas in Egyptian culture, the pharaoh and the pharaoh's wife got married.

So she's Cleopatra VII, regardless of if she's the sole monarch or if she's married. They were expected to have some kind of power, to have some kind of duties, whereas in Rome, it was viewed as like, what the fuck is she doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shut your mouth. Why does this woman want to be powerful? Yeah. Wow. Isn't that so interesting? Just different places and expectations and all of that. Yeah. And so, yeah, in Rome, it was not popular. I don't really know what was going on in Egypt, but she's pregnant.

We could talk a whole hour about if this was a love match or if this was politics. Oh. Because, you know, how were alliances made back then? It's marriage. Yeah. Yeah. They couldn't get married because Julius Caesar was married and he couldn't marry... He's like, damn it! He couldn't marry a non-Roman anyway. Okay, I see. They were very much Rome for Rome. Wow, so then it is even more like scandal. Yeah. Like an affair. Yeah, but, I mean...

Public. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A public affair. A public affair. They were very good together. They were very strategic. They would go on tours of the Nile. They would go visit places in Egypt together, which was huge because...

Pharaohs didn't always do that. Like, they didn't go and see what the commoners, you know, see what the peasants were doing. And they were making sure to be seen together by people all over Egypt and with her with her big pregnant belly. She's so crazy, but like, yet he is still married. Yeah. Yeah. What does his wife think about all this? She was at home like... She's probably like, honestly, just anything to get him out of the house. Whatever. To hang out with him. And so, yeah. So that is... I think it's...

I, my personal thought is I think they got pregnant together on purpose, but

And I don't think it was necessarily – I think they liked each other, obviously. Yeah. I don't think they were necessarily – I don't think she was in love with Julius Caesar. I think she was like, if I have a son who is a future pharaoh and he's half Roman, what is that going to do for Egypt? Oh, everything. Good thing. So powerful. She's thinking business. That's what I think. We could go back and forth, but that's my – Yeah. That's my opinion. Do y'all kind of get the same vibe? I agree. This woman, like, she's thinking about the future. Yeah. Strategery. She's thinking of her father. May he rest in peace.

piece. Yeah, he would have liked it. And it's also, I mean, she's reading the room. Rome is running the room. Yeah. And if she's got...

If a future pharaoh has ties there right now, Rome would never, ever, ever, ever be like, well, he wasn't born in Rome. He's not Roman. So he's not going to be a ruler in Rome. But in the future, who knows? So that's what she's thinking. So they are this power couple. And in 46 BCE, she gives birth to a little boy that she names Tom. And but his middle name is Caesar.

Oh. And he has gone down in history known as Caesarian. He was not born via C-section. I was going to ask. I was like, is this? That comes from another Roman word, but it means little Caesar. Little Caesars. And he created a pizza empire. Yes. And he went on. I mean, he's the most. Fuck you, Papa John. No way. Move over. Honestly, the most important person we've covered in history. Like literally? With the most cultural impact. Yeah.

Pizza, pizza, bitch. That's amazing. Absolutely. So, yeah, a lot of people would be like, because he was born by a cesarean section. No, she would have died. Right.

Right. I was like, was that possible? I mean, I wouldn't know. But like, God, even now. No. You died. You have to sterilize things. I think they were doing that back then. No. If they got a baby out back then, it's because the mom was going to die anyway. Or was already dead. They did that on House of Dragon, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. And she died. And she died. Yeah. We know how this ends. But yeah. So...

Caesar doesn't officially acknowledge Caesarian as his son, but he doesn't distance himself either. Because he knows it would be political suicide in Rome to do so. But he is like, why don't y'all come do a little vacation here in Rome? Oh. Why don't y'all come do a little vacation? Kind of like, let's see how... And he puts Cleopatra, her new brother-husband...

baby brother-husband and Caesarian up in a palace. He builds a statue to her. It's technically a statue of Venus, the goddess. But it looks like Cleopatra. He's smooth. He is smooth. That would get me going. The Romans fucking hate this, though. And have you ever heard of...

of a day in history called the Ides of March. Yeah. Bloody, right? Why don't we totally just stab Caesar? Yeah. Everything goes back to Mean Girls in this episode. And so that's when, so the Ides of March, it's from, it's from the Shakespeare play, like, Beware the Ides of March. That means March 15th. And it was a very bad day for Julius Caesar. And Cleopatra was in Rome when he was assassinated. Wow.

by the Senate. Like every, all the senators just got up and stabbed him. Stabbed him. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Let's totally just stab Caesar. They were just like, we're sick of your shit. Yeah. Yeah. Gretchen Wieners was like, I, hey, sometimes. Yeah. You just lose your shit. Complete side note. Mean Girls is a retelling of the Shakespeare play, Julius Caesar.

And Gretchen is Brutus. And Gretchen is Brutus? Well, I mean, it's like... Or is Katie Brough? Oh, no. Katie is Brutus. I'm sorry. Gretchen, I don't think is necessarily... Oh, wow. No, Katie would be Brutus. Also, Katie's name is Katie Heron. My maiden name is Hearn. Oh, no way.

No way. Oh, my God. So when this movie came out, were you like, this is speaking – This is me. You're like, Tina Fey wrote this for me. Yeah. I am. But that actually makes sense because, like, Tina Fey is a theater kid. Like, she knows about, like, all of the references. Oh, I mean, Ten Things I Hate About You is Taming of the True. It was very popular for a while to do Shakespeare. Yeah. It was such a good time in pop culture. Yes. And so, anyway, complete side note. But, yeah, so Cleo is there when he gets stabbed. And she's like –

She sees it all. I mean, she wouldn't have... I don't know that she was physically there, but she was in Rome. She sees shit going on. And so that is... What are you feeling? If you know that you're not popular there and your protector... That was like her lifeline there. Just got murdered. How are you feeling? A little anxious. Well, we're gonna go. Yeah. We're gonna go. You know, I gotta get back to Egypt. Yeah. Just remembered things are going on. Yeah. So she... Her and her son and her husband, brother...

Get back to Egypt and then she has her husband brother murdered. Oh. Because she's just like – I'm just also sick of your shit. Yeah. She's like, you know what? Okay. So – If one's gone, a woman can't be feral on her own. A mother can be co-ruler with a son. Oh, perfect. So she really just is like, I don't need you anymore. She doesn't need him. Oh, my God. But so the only way to get rid of him is just to kill him. Yeah. Was anyone trying to kill her?

You know, I don't... I... Probably? Yeah, but, like, it wasn't, like... But it's not written down, really. Her brother wasn't like, let me kill her because then I can... No, no. He's, like, barely speaking. Yeah, that's true. He's like, I...

He was probably at this point now like 11 as well. I know it sucks because we don't know as opposed to her other brother has been he was it was dog eat dog. One of them was going to kill each other. This one doesn't seem like he was really doing it. But but existing that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He would have been better off just staying in Rome. But that's not what went down.

So, huge oversimplification of what happens in Rome after Caesar dies. It's called the Second Triumphant. There's three guys and all the power gets divided amongst them. The third guy is not important. We're not even going to learn his name. One of the guys that is now in power is a guy named Octavian.

He's very important. And then the other guy that is in power is a guy named Mark Antony. Richard Burton. Yes, Richard Burton. Richard Burton. Also, J-Lo's ex-husband's name is Mark Anthony, right? Yes. Okay, okay. I know. I'm like, why am I also picturing that man? So anyway, Mark Antony and Octavian are dividing a bland. And it's like, Mark Antony, you're going to be over...

Egypt and I'm going to be over this. So you need to go to Egypt. You need to like let them know that you are now like the head bitch in charge. You're going to be like their representative and you need to like lay down the law and let them know over there that like we are the powerhouse in the world. Yeah. The Roman Empire is the powerhouse that Egyptians need to make sure they are aware of that. And Mark Antony is like absolutely. Yeah.

Mark Antony, the difference between Mark Antony and Julius Caesar is going to be... Mark Antony is a little bit more of a party guy. Okay. I want you to think frat boy. Okay. Okay. Maybe... He's a little bit of a frat boy. It's a little scary sometimes. He's a little bit more into partying. And Julius Caesar was... I'm thinking Julius Caesar was like a Virgo. Okay. Okay. I'm thinking Mark Antony was like...

I don't know. An Aries, maybe? Maybe. Maybe. He's like Peter Pan syndrome a little bit? Maybe. Like, he was just into partying and getting bitches. Yeah, yeah. And he was... He got into his position in power, well, from family connections, but also from just being, like, a...

a powerhouse on the battlefield, like a warrior. But his warrior days are behind him now and now he's like in his administration phase. I see. But he still loves like the power. He's like always like reliving it. Yeah. He's like, I want to time out there on the field. Sorry, bring it up again. Yeah, it's kind of like whenever a football player retires and has to go into some other, but they still bring up that time. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

So he gets to Egypt and he summons Cleopatra. Like, tell that girl to come here. She needs to come see me because I am the power. I'm trying to lay down the law. And she is just like...

Oh, is that what we're doing? Okay, no. I'll come meet him. Oh. I'll come meet him. Oh, my God. I'm, like, getting hot. Yeah, it's, like, it is hot. It's, like, kind of sexy. Yeah, yeah. So he is, she has given him, like, this party boat to, like, and him and his buddies are, like, part, she's, like, yeah, give him the barge, send him the best wine, whatever. I'm imagining, like, a pontoon, though. So he's, like, coming.

He's like on the party boat. She's like, yeah, you know what? Let's show him a good time. And so he's partying and she rolls up on her own boat dressed as the goddess Isis.

I'm Jalenta Greenberg. And I'm Kristen Meinzer. You may know us from our podcast, By the Book. And together, we also host How to Be Fine. In each episode of How to Be Fine, we dive into the good and the bad side of the wellness industry, from charlatan influencers to science-backed studies on happiness. And all this season, we're going deep on the subject of friendship. Why is it that so many of us have so few friends right now?

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She is like head to toe decked out in gold. She has all of her lady servants decked out in, I think like purple and they're fanning her and she's like laying on this. That is amazing. And she has all the men in there, her servants like dressed up like gods. Like this is why I'm like, I'm feeling Leo vibes. Everything is a costume party. Yes. Well, cause Mark Antony, it was really into gods and goddesses.

So she did her research. She did her research. And she knows he loves the goddess Isis. So she rolls in. You're a smart woman. Yeah. And he is fucking impressed. I bet he is. Just like she did with Caesar. She knows. She does her research. Yep. I love this girl. I love her too. I really do. Yes.

And he – oh, no. Her ladies were dressed like mermaids. Oh, my God. That's so good. Gorgeous. Wow. Yes. And Mark Antony was like – He's like, I'm going to fuck all of them. He was just like – he was like, bingo. Yes. This was absolutely the right move. And so soon after that, the two start a physical relationship. He's like a second.

Like maybe that night. Like, yes. Yes. I would too. Yeah. He's like, absolutely. The difference with this though, there was definitely strategy there. She definitely had a plan there, but it seems like they, they just had like some undeniable chemistry going on. And it seems like their relationship was business strategy, business,

Well, why can't it be both? Right. Do you think she was more into him than she was Julius? Yes, but also he was just more fun because he liked to party. Yeah. So she was like, they would throw parties and everybody would get super drunk and they would just have a good time together.

And then they'd go to bed together. Yeah, I mean, these are her glory years. Yes. Good for you, girl. Did people do drugs back then? Probably. I'm not sure. I do often think, like, my God, the hangovers back then and, like, they didn't even know what was really going on, you know? So they wouldn't know, like, we need to drink water. Oh, my God. You know? It must have felt terrible. Death. Or you just, I mean. Keep drinking. Just keep drinking. Everyone died at, like, 20. Your livers are just, like, can't take it.

So they're having this relationship, but she's also keeping Egypt top of mind for Rome. Of course. Keeping Egypt prosperous. And yeah, that being said, though, they still had a lot of fun together. Of course. And it just seems like it was a bit more of a party relationship than where Caesar was strategy. Yeah. All, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

So it kind of seems like she didn't really have any expectations here of, like, attachment or anything. Like, she wasn't that worried about, like, falling in love or anything. And he wasn't that worried about falling in love and anything. And so after a few months together, he's like, well, I got to go. And she's like, cool.

See you when you come back around. Wow. She does send a spy. Of course. I was like, wow, she's like a little too cool about this. She's just a woman. And she's like, they keep in touch and she finds out she's pregnant after he leaves. Oh, she may have already known. He might have known when he left. We're not sure. But they don't see each other again for another three years. Oh,

And she has twins. Oh. Yeah. She has a daughter named Cleopatra Selene. Love. Cleopatra Selene, of course. She has a son that she doesn't name Ptolemy. She names him Alexander Helios. She's breaking the cycle. Well, Alexander is reminding a weird descendants. Remember, we come from the ancient Greeks. We come from a powerful. But also what I really like.

Cleopatra, Selene, Alexander, Helios. Selene means the sun in ancient Greek and Helios means moon in ancient Greek. Oh. Love. I know. Perfect for twins. That is perfect for twins. God, having twins back then. I know. I was just thinking about that. Like how did anyone survive?

Literally. But I think about that for like literally just giving birth. Just anything. Yeah. I survive fucking anything. No, I know. Yeah. So, yeah, those names were important. Even though it wasn't a Ptolemy, it was like, remember, we come from important people too. Yeah. They're my sun and my moon. They're half Roman. They're half Greek. They're Egyptian. You know, it all meant something. Yeah. She was not like willy nilly. No, no, no. She was intentional about everything. Yes.

So they don't see each other again for like another three or four years. But like I said, they kind of keep in touch. She's keeping tabs on what she's doing. She's keeping tabs on what he's doing. During this time, Cleopatra is just running Egypt and by all accounts seems to be really popular. She – with the people, with the Greeks, like everything's going just fine. During this time, Egypt was in a bit of a cultural renaissance. Sure.

She was hiring artists to come, like artists from all over the world, to come to Egypt to teach art. She was hiring scholars from all over the world. Have you all ever heard of the Library of Alexandria? No. It burnt down, I believe, after her lifetime. I'm not 100% sure, but it was like the most famous library in the world. Oh, cool. It was kind of more of like a college, a university. Yeah. Oh, I love that. So she was hiring philosophers from all over the world to come and teach art.

at this library slash university. Like, she was making sure that Egypt was not falling behind. That's what happens when you have a woman rule. Like, literally. I mean, y'all just did Elizabeth. Elizabeth I. Like, same thing. Golden Age. Bringing people in. She's making sure that Egypt is staying safe.

Top of the world. So when Rome comes knocking on her door and they're like, we're like in a scrimmage with some people. We need some ships. We need some help from our friends in Egypt. She is sort of like, why? Why should I?

that's how powerful she's getting. She's having some big clit energy here. Oh, wow. Yeah. She's just like, she's now like, no, I'm not helping. She's like, Egypt is thriving. Right? Yeah. What have you done? Exactly. It needs to be a mutual. Yeah. And so Anthony is in Syria and he is just like this fucking hardheaded bitch. And he's just like, he's like, he's like, he's like, I want you to remember who is actually the one, the more powerful one here. You need to get your ass here right now. And she's like,

Sure. Oh, she knew what we did. So she rolls up with her twins. Oh, she's like, surprise. They're like, and so I hate this because patriarchy, but he's married. Of course. Um, sucks. But they only have daughters. Ooh. And so he's like, Oh my God, suddenly I love you. Oh, that's so terrible. So he like,

Abandons his previous family. Yeah. Oh, God. The more things change, the more they say. Like literally. But isn't that a power move, though? Like, oh, you're summing me again. Here I am. Two of them. Not one, but two. Yeah.

Oh, they were twin boys? No, it was a boy and a girl. Oh, boy and a girl. Oh, I see. Yeah. But she's like, come on over, Moon. But still? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Come on over, Moon. To make things even more complicated, remember how Rome is divided up with this Octavian guy also? He is married to Octavian's sister. Oh. Yeah.

That gets tricky. Because Octavian's going to be like, what did you just do to my sister? Hold on to your asses. Absolutely. So she shows up with this calculated move with the kids and everything. It's like, sure, you can have some votes now. And he is just like...

what the fuck? Like, you know? He had a son? And he probably already knew he had a son, but now seeing them and everything. It's different. Yeah. We don't know exactly what went down in their meeting, but Cleopatra walked away with more money from Rome. And as far as we can tell, Mark Antony kind of just never left her side for the rest of his life after that. He was...

So this is where I don't think that they were necessarily in love before. I think it was just like a party, mutual beneficial relationship. People will argue. It's kind of without a doubt Mark Antony was in love with Cleopatra. And people are like, was Cleopatra in love with him back or was this strategic? But either way, they're a love story after this. Oh, so it becomes real. Yeah. Yeah. That's sweet. Yeah. Baby, just say yes. Yeah. Goddamn. Yeah.

So this is the part of the story. Yeah, like I said, I think it's actually a love story. I don't think she started in love with him. I think she fell in love with him. But people will write that she was just using him. They love to say that about women, though. Yeah. I feel like, why can't you like the guy? Yeah. Yeah. So...

They started a club called the Club of – I can never say this word – Immutable Livers or something like that. Basically, it means like their liver, like your organ that processes alcohol, like are just unbreakable. Yeah.

Like, we should start that club. I know. That sounds great. And they would like play pranks on each other and just get sloppy drunk and hearty all the time. There's this story about Cleopatra telling him like, I can throw the most expensive dinner in the world. And he's like, no, you can't. And so the story goes is that she took a pearl and dropped it into a glass of vinegar and it melted and she drank it. And she was like,

That was the most expensive dinner in the world or something like that. Oh, my God. We don't know if that story is true either. Rich. Rich. They are just having the time of their life after this. They're like twin flames. I'm so glad they found each other. Yeah, they are. Maybe alcoholics. Yeah. Two addicts that found each other. But you know, it's not romantic.

So soon Cleopatra is pregnant again. Oh my God. Fertile. Yeah. And this time she has a baby boy. Any guesses what she names him? Mark Antony too? Marky. Ptolemy. Oh, she's back. She's back. She's like, I don't have one brain cell left after all of this liquor. I cannot think of anything. So it's clear after the birth of their second son together, Antony has no plans on going back.

Wow. No, he's in love with this woman. Yeah. And they start calling each other husband and wife. It is one thing in Roman culture to have a mistress. They do not practice polygamy in Rome. And the other most powerful guy in the world, he is married to his sister. Yeah. And so Octavian is like, no.

The fuck? Yeah. Like, this is not cool. Yeah. You're disrespecting my family now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so this was a problem. Divorce was really common in Rome, too. Like, people got married and divorced for political reasons in the upper class, like, all the time. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It wasn't, like, shameful? No.

No. Like, I mean, you're saying it's, it kind of sucks because sometimes there was, there's stories of people that were like legitimately in love and their families made them get divorced because there was like other political alliances and stuff to make. But, um,

So it was sort of people were like, oh, dude, you got to divorce the first one. Clean up your side of the street a little bit. Yes. And so I feel like it's important to mention that, like we said, everything that survives about her comes from Roman sources. Historians will say that Cleopatra was like, no, you're calling me your wife now and that he was just so pussy whipped. Okay. Yeah.

So who knows? Yeah. But that's the narrative. But also, is that so bad? Right. Yeah, that's the narrative that also Octavian was spinning over in. He was like, he is...

Pussy whipped. He's over in Rome being like, this guy is under, it's witchcraft. This guy is under the spell of the Tintras. There it is. He should be pussy whipped. Every man should be pussy whipped. He's pimping hard for Cleopatra. And so Romans already didn't love her because of the whole Julius Caesar thing.

Because they're like, why does she want to keep having babies with these Romans? But now they're like, she has stolen our golden boy. Right. Because he has no free agency. Yeah, exactly. She stole him. She's so manipulative. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And so the Romans fucking hate her. They're just jealous. Yeah, they are. They are jealous. And he didn't really –

do himself any favors with this. We're going to skim over some battles. We're going to do some skimming, but they do this thing in ancient Rome where if the Romans would win a battle, they would have this like parade. They would take the prisoners of war, parade them through the streets, have like a big party. Everyone's drinking wine. Everyone's like riding in chariots. And so Egypt, Egypt,

Does this battle. They don't win. But they decide to do the Roman tradition. Oh. Like, we're going to party anyway. Yeah, we're going to party anyway. Hey, good for them. Yeah, I respect it. And so this is called... This event has gone down in history. It's called the Donations of Alexandria. So they're having this big party. They're parading prisoners of war through the streets and everything. And at the end, Mark Antony gives this big speech. And he's like, so Cleopatra's my wife.

And my son is actually the rightful ruler of this country. My daughter is actually the rightful ruler of this country. Our other son, like giving them all these lands and titles that Rome is like, what? What did he say? But then he says in Cleopatra's first son.

with Julius Caesar is the rightful ruler of Rome. Oh, shit. Oh, Mark. Oh, my God. How is he just not killed right then and there? Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a move. It sure was. He would, though. Like, I'm going to fuck shit up. Yeah, he's like, let's see what happens. He's probably drunk. Yeah, literally. He's like Travis Kelsey after the Super Bowl. He's like, baby.

And so, I mean, I wish I could have been there, though, because, like, she is dressed as Isis. He's dressed as Dionysus, who was the god of wine. Of course. Well, they're really leaning into that club that they have. Their kids are dressed as god and goddesses, like, because remember back then, the

The story was people that are pharaohs are like divine. Right. From the gods. And so they're doing they are doing a big spectacle. They're doing the most. Yes. Rome was super not cool with the whole and this other this other guy. Yeah. Not happy. Yeah. Not happy. So again, some skimming. But unsurprisingly, Rome and Egypt are at war.

And Octavian was like, we've never attacked another Roman before. Oh. So you see this a lot in history. So they had to really spin...

Because he couldn't go after a Roman, and Mark Antony was Roman, so he really had to play up the fuck Cleopatra campaign. We're not going after Mark Antony, because Cleopatra told him to do this. He's not at fault. We're going to make her the villain. We're going after Cleopatra. It's like the biggest thing of propaganda again. Yeah, truly. Yeah. So the Romans, headed by Octavian, they come for Cleopatra, and this...

Battle is called the Battle of Actium. I'm doing some major skimming over it, but if anybody's interested, I don't find battles that interesting. Yeah. That's not what we're here for. Yeah, it's really not. We're here for the hookup. But if anybody's interested in that, there are so many podcasts already dedicated to, like, if you're into war, you can find information about this. Not really for me, no. No. But...

And so the war was declared on Cleopatra and on Egypt because if they defeated her, they could make Egypt now officially a Roman state.

Which they've been wanting to do anyway. How smart they are anyway. They've been wanting to make Egypt an official Roman state anyway. It's like a perfect storm. And so they're like, we can get her out and then we can claim Egypt. Because Egypt, since the beginning of time, has been really, like, it's got the Nile. They've got really good crops. And it's like a strategic port. Like, it's always been a place of interest for whoever's in charge. And so they were like, I mean, that's why, that's why...

Alexander the Great wanted it whenever he conquered it, you know? And so they're like, two birds, one stone. Let's go. Nobody beats the Roman army either. Yeah. Rome doesn't lose. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why they're so... Oh, God. Oh, no. I'm scared too. I'm scared for little Cleo. Me too.

Me too. I'm so sorry to tell you that things are not about to get any better. I had a feeling. Yeah. I had a feeling. So Octavian makes this speech in which he just drags the fuck out of Cleopatra. And he's just like, she's put a spell on Antony. Oh my God. Classic. Come up with something more interesting. I know. He says that she's turned him into a slave.

Which, because back then there were enslaved people in Roman times. And it's like, that was the worst thing you could say about a wealthy person from the upper class in Rome is compare them to an enslaved person. And so it's a smear campaign, but he can't just come out and say it against Marc Anthony. Right. Because like we said earlier, I can talk shit on my sister, you can't talk shit on my aunt type thing. So, yeah.

Yes. So the battle, the war is going on. The Battle of Actium comes to a head. We again, we don't know if the story is that when it Octavian's on one ship because it's all going on on the on the water. Octavian's in one ship, Cleopatra's in another ship because she insisted on like actually going into battle and Octavian's on another ship.

The story goes that when Cleopatra realizes that the battle's not going in her favor, her ship bails. Okay. That's the story.

Again, the history is written by her enemies. Right. So it just makes her look... Like she got scared. Or like she's like, bye. Yeah. Which I feel like isn't really in her nature though, you know? Yeah. So we don't know. She'd be like, if I'm going to go, let's fucking go. Or there's also like a million reasons that she could have been like, well, there's no reason for us both to get taken down. Totally. I'm going to go back home and secure some stuff and like, you know. Totally. There's a million reasons. So who knows what actually happens, but the story is spent like...

Oh, she realized she's a coward and she's manipulative. So she got out of there. Yeah. Yes. So TLDR, what you need to know is that the Battle of Actium is a bad time for Cleo and friends. Like, not a good time. And they both end up retreating. And Cleo goes to...

She goes to, like, the place where her ancestors are buried and everything because that's, like, a safe space. It's like, no one's going to find me here. Okay. So she, like, runs. Yeah. And with her kids. Yeah. Somebody tells Mark Antony she's in the crypt. And so he thinks she's dead. Oh, my God. This is like Romeo and Juliet. It is. And, um...

Again, some people say that she told them to tell her she was him. She was dead. So that he would, like, flee or something and get the fuck out. Instead, so I guess content warning, shmoo aside. Like, taking your own life in the ancient world was just viewed with a completely different lens than it is now. It was, like, kind of viewed as, like, the honorable thing to do. Mm-hmm.

And so he is just like, well, if she's already dead and it looks like we're on the losing side anyway. And he stabs himself in the chest, but he doesn't die. Oh, my God. And he asks one of his servants to, like, finish the job for him and they won't. And then somebody runs in and is like, no, Cleopatra's alive. No! No! I don't mean to laugh, but that's... Oh, my God, that's... That is horrific. He's just like...

So they bring him to her and she's like up at the top of like the crypt or whatever. He can't go up the stairs. So they like make a pulley system, but like pull him up and he dies in her arms. I'm going to cry. Yeah, truly. That's so upsetting. No. So the battle is lost. She, I mean, the sail is out of the winds are out of the sail. Like the battle is lost and Octavian rolls in and she sees the writing on the wall and

And she knows that if they take her captive, they're going to bring her to Rome and march her through the streets in one of those terrible ways. And Octavian tells her, he's like,

I promise I will not execute you. Cause it's also this whole part of the story that we had to skip. She had a sister named Marcina way that got marched through the streets of Rome and executed. So she's like, that's not happening to me. Yeah. Don't want to see that. He's like, I promise not to kill you, but I don't make any other promises. And she's like, okay, if I get taken to Rome,

what is my quality of life going to be? Am I going to be, I'm definitely going to be marched through the streets. Yeah. Am I going to have to live in a dungeon? Like, yeah, I am the Pharaoh of fucking. Yeah. Like, and, um, basically Octavian tells her, I'm going to give you time to think about it. He knows what he's saying to her. He knows he's saying, um,

kill yourself and let's go. Yeah. I'm surprised that he gave her the option. Yeah. It's going to be easier for him if she's dead though. That's so true. Yeah. That is true. And so like you said at the beginning about this, the story goes is that she let an asp bite her and died of the poison. Yeah.

Probably not true. Again, the art you see, you'll see paintings of that and stuff. Probably not true because that would be a really, really, really long drawn out death. And it might not actually kill you too. So she probably took some poison or something. Okay. She takes her own life. Okay. I didn't mean to give anything away at the beginning. The only reason I said that because I thought that that wasn't a thing. No, I had no idea. Even with you saying that, I had no idea. I saw some. What was the other movie? Not with Elizabeth Taylor, but there was something else. I remember watching it as a kid.

And it shows it very graphically. Oh, I don't know. And I was so disturbed. Yeah. So that's the story, but it's probably not how... Yeah, probably like drink some poison. Probably drink some poison or something. Which is also awful. And then what about her kids? So, um, Cesarean is that he, cause he had been somewhere else in Africa, like for safekeeping. They go and find him and...

There are three kids with Mark Antony because remember they're half Roman. They're not viewed as threats right now because they're also young. Whereas Caesarian was almost an adult. Yeah. And not Roman. Oh, he was truly Caesar. But he's a threat. Yeah. So the three kids are taken to Rome, marched in one of those parades.

They go and live with Mark Antony's widow and are raised by her. That is insane. That is just – Wow. Yeah. She is a saint, right? No kidding. Truly, though. Raised with their sisters because she had two daughters, I believe. The two sons both in – like, disappear from the records. Probably when they got older, it was like – Yeah.

Peace out. Cleopatra Selene is married to an African king. Oh. And that was like a client state of Rome. Okay, well. And so she goes on to have kids. It seems like it worked out for her. Yeah. Yeah. So she's like the only person in the story to die of natural causes maybe. Wow. Oh my God. Yeah. I feel so sad about Cleopatra. And so then Egypt becomes a state of Rome and she was the last pharaoh. I had no idea she was like.

pharaoh I didn't either of thousands of years of pharaohs yeah oh my how old was she do you think she was when she was 39 39 not bad for ancient for ancient like and for how much she drank yeah

And all the trauma. How stressful life was. I mean, all the trauma. Yeah. I love her. She's like one of my. That is the story of Cleopatra. Yeah. One of my favorite women that we've covered, honestly. That was, Katie, that was so well told. That was so interesting. Oh, had you thought? So she is a, I mean, there's the reason people are still so fascinated by her. What a badass. So kidding. 2,000 years later. The one thing that I, my pet peeve with Cleopatra, though, is everyone is like, well, she must have just been so beautiful. Oh.

Oh, God. And that's why people like Elizabeth Taylor play her and stuff. The only depictions from her time that survive is not what we would consider classically beautiful. Oh. Because she had a really large nose. She had a really large chin, at least in these coins that she minted. But she may have also done that to look more masculine. Like, have it... Also, that's like our...

of beauty and like that's not the standard of beauty. But the reason I think it's so sexist that everyone's always like, well, she must have been so beautiful because –

How else can we justify these powerful men falling in love with her? Totally. She has a good sense of humor. She's smart. She's smart. She spoke a billion languages. She's powerful. Big clit energy. She was a fucking pharaoh. She seemed like a great mom. Yeah. So that is, I always like to end it with, because people just, when you say Cleopatra, that's what, when I asked at the beginning, like what comes to your mind, I was kind of testing the waters to see if y'all were going to be like,

Super beautiful. Elizabeth Taylor. That is how I pictured her the whole time. She probably didn't look anything like, I mean, she was inbred as hell. Yeah. So she probably didn't look anything like Elizabeth Taylor. That is a good point. Something is not right. There's a little something off. I love though that she was like, hmm, maybe I don't have kids with my brother. Yeah. And that's another good quality. Yes. She got out of the incest. We love that.

So that is Cleopatra. That was so fun, Katie. Thank you so, so much. What a treat. What a treat. Well, so we say that we ask our guests the same question every time. If you could smoke a joint with a person in history dead or alive, who would it be? I mean, right.

I mean, right now I'm thinking Cleopatra. Truly, though. I was like, that's all I can think about. Light it up. That's such a good answer. Like her in one of those boats. Yeah, the party boat. I want to dress as a mermaid around her. Same. And just get a little fucked up. Yeah. Same. Because you know she liked to party. She wouldn't be against it.

Oh, no, that's a great answer. Yeah. And Katie, where can everyone find you? Yeah. So we are Queens podcast. We are on Spotify, of course, and anywhere else you get your podcast. We are really active on Instagram. So Queens underscore podcast. We have a Patreon. So if you like these kind of stories and like,

I have a like on Patreon I have a series called This Fucking Guy. Love. Already by the title. Yes. I'm like signing up. Yeah. It's like Octavian over here. Yeah. You talk about those people. I don't have one on him yet but he's in my. Oh my God. That's so such a good idea. So funny. Or he's more popular. He's more known as he gives himself the name Augustus after he becomes the sole ruler. Of course. Yeah. Of course. We've seen that. Yeah.

had his daughter murdered. Super not cool. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Trash. Tr

Come on. Yes, we are going to be on, Rami. So make sure that you head on over. Yes, follow them right now. And thank you to Spotify Mashups for putting us together. Yes. And if you are here from Queen's Podcast, you can follow us at Rain Answers Mostly on Instagram and TikTok. We also have a premium subscription that's in the show notes. Yeah, we just love this.

I love this. This was so fun. I know. This was so fun. And we will see you all next week. See you Rammies next week and thank you Katie. Thanks Katie. We end Queens with cheers bitches. Cheers bitches. Cheers bitches.