André Leon Talley, THE fashion trailblazer
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Let's have a night and do baked potatoes, sour cream, and caviar. How much is the thing caviar? Like a little tin. Split it. Put it on the card. Put it on the card. Write it off. And we're back. We missed you. We missed that little week break. Sometimes we need to take it. I know. I apologize. Look. You shouldn't apologize. I get sick every spring into summer. This just happens every single year, and it just really knocked me on the feet. But you did have something to carry you through. Yeah.

You know what you've been watching. Oh, of course. Oh my God. Our family. I had VPR to, well, I, it was like a nice time to be sick because it was my birthday. I went to Palm Springs. Yes. And then when I was there, I was like, I feel, and I was like, don't, you can't even say it because then it's just going to like ruin it. That tickle on your throat. But I was starting to not feel good. Then came back for four days, was super, super sick. Then went to Mexico for a wedding, which was amazing, but also like,

My body's just been like, all right, can you stop for a second? So that's why I'm drinking tea today. Yeah, she's drinking tea out of her Real Housewives mugshot mug. Of course, it all goes back to Bravo. It does. Which, by the way, welcome to Right Answers Mostly. I'm Claire. I'm Tess. You know, we just always got to sprinkle in Bravo at the top of the show. We must. It's who we are. But so you're feeling better. How else are you, Tess? I'm feeling better. It's just like one of those times when you're like, damn, I've been, I've been, uh, I've

Out and about and not really feeling grounded, feeling settled, which is like lovely to go on vacation. Yes. But then you get back and you're like, I don't know what a vegetable looks like. I haven't seen her for months. Months. I hadn't even gone on like a walk for like a week and a half. So like I did Pilates for the first time today and was struggling. Pilates always, you take the class and you're like, what the fuck?

I didn't even know I had these muscles. What just happened in there rocks you. Rocks your world. But you know what? I feel good. I feel excited for the weekend. Oh, yeah. We're going to a music festival to celebrate Tessa's birthday this weekend. Keep it going. The last you hear of it until it clears.

birthday is only a few months away. How else was your weekend besides the crab boil? Great. You were busy because of the bus? I know. Things have been... It's just like the world is back. I went to Stagecoach two weekends ago and that was so fun, but oh my God, it was hot as hell. I just...

Were your cowboy boots comfortable? No. I meant to ask you. So cowboy boots turns out are for riding horses. They are not for walking the polo grounds. I was going to say, because I was like, God, that'd be chic for this weekend. It hurt. They hurt. My feet were aching. Yeah. Aching at the end. Yeah. Yeah. But your outfits were hot. It's all for fashion. It is.

All ish because... We are kicking off fashion month today. We sure are, honey. I'm very excited. But before we start, we do want to give a little shout out. We have to. So over the weekend, again, Tess and I were separated, but she texted me and she said, did you see what Tasha DM'd us? And we would just want to give a shout out to our Rami Tasha, who's all the way over in the UK. Oh, yeah.

If you guys aren't sending us drunken voice notes on your Saturday night, then what the hell are you doing? What is you doing? I just encourage you to send us a voicemail on Instagram. Literally. We love connecting. We love like, I mean, we're still like in that phase where someone says that they're listening to us in a different country or fucking city. Yes.

It's like not just our moms listening. Literally. And we're just like so thankful that people are sticking around. It's so crazy. So follow us on Instagram at Right Answers Mostly. Follow us on TikTok and connect with us because we love it. Is there anything else going on in your world before the fashion starts? I don't think so. I'm excited and nervous to get into the fashion.

But we are fashion girlies, as we talked about. We didn't even know how to say coutier. I believe it's how you would say someone who makes couture. Right. So we did our Met Gala episode, and then I listened to Andre Leontali's book, and I was like, fuck.

I know. I was just like, you know what? We're just, it's part of our charm. But I don't have pronouns, anything. No, me either. And we'll see that probably in this episode as well. I think that Andre Leon Talley, that is who we are covering today, is the perfect person to kick off Fashion Month. Tess, what do you know about old Andre?

I'm ashamed to say I don't know much. I actually don't think that's like an uncommon thing. To be honest, when you told me you were doing him, I had to Google him because I was like, I know that sounds familiar, but I couldn't picture the face. And then once I did, I was like, oh, of course. Did your mind go to America's Next Top Model at all? Wait, yes, yes.

Wait. Yes, he was a judge. He was a judge for America's Next Top Model from cycle 14 to 17. Of course. Okay. Okay. I was like, no, I don't think that was him, but it was him. It was him. So that's really it. Hey, you know what? I love when you shock me. In his book, The Chiffon Trenches, he spills all the tea. It's so hot. What a gorgeous title. The book is so good. I highly recommend going to listen to it or read it.

And then I also watched the documentary, The Gospel According to Andre. And that was also great because I also text Tess and I was like,

God, I'm just worried. Like you need his essence to like really understand him. So I highly encourage you to go YouTube videos of him and just get to know him in that way as well. Totally. But I feel like I think we sometimes have this fear with subjects of like, is there enough drama? And like, what if they don't know what they're like? But I feel like we always, you know, we deliver in the way that we can.

And then we always say, go do your homework. Exactly. So that will be your homework. Well, okay. So Andre Leon Talley was a fashion journalist, stylist, creative director, and editor at large of Vogue magazine. He made history as the first black queer creative director at Vogue in 1988. Wow. Yeah. And then editor at large from 1998 to 2013. And with this honorable title, Talley sought to use his position to represent the black community. Okay.

And it's worth mentioning that Tally also served on the judging panel for America's Next Top Model from Cycle 14 to Cycle 17. Thank God you brought it there. We have to always bring it there. In the 80s, that's actually kind of earlier than I thought because we were really...

Took us a long time to do anything. It sure did. And like the diversity that we see in the fashion community now, while it's not where it should be, but we need to credit what we do see to Andre. Wow. Yeah, he really did a lot. Oh, that's amazing. It is. So let's get into it. Okay. So Andre Leon Talley was born on October 16th, 1948 in Washington, DC. Libra. Libra. I love a Libra. I love Libra too. My man's a Libra. You're dating Libra. Your moon is

Libra. It really is. So we love that Libra energy. When he was two months old, his parents took him to Durham, North Carolina, where his grandmother lived. And it was decided that Andre would be raised by his grandmother while his parents pursued careers in Washington, D.C. Okay. He calls his grandmother Mama, and they lived with his great-grandmother, Chyna. Oh. I love the names for these women. Really, though? Mama was a cleaner for Duke University's men dormitories, which...

That is not a kind job. I can only imagine what those freaking dormitories were like. Duke? Duke. Smart but scary. Smart but scary. Rich, smart, scary bros. Well, hey. Stinky. Isn't that most of them? That is true. But she was an extremely hard worker and she was such an important figure in Andre's life and he credited her for giving him an understanding of luxury. Oh. His grandmother and church is where he discovered his love for fashion. Oh.

Because in the documentary, they noted that amidst the Jim Crow South, the black church was the only place really in which African American life and African American identity was affirmed and valued. And certainly it was a fashion show. Oh, my God. Everyone dressed to the nines. Wow. So many people are inspired by their grandma's fashion. Like, do you think that's like, in a way, like the first person that you like woman that you see that you're like,

You are glamour. I think that both of us relate to this because I think of my grandmother as like, I remember her red lipstick and her costume jewelry. Totally. Like the pristine effort that they would put into like nails and makeup. His grandmother had fabulous hats for every occasion and seasons and gloves and handkerchiefs.

And the chic thing to do was to go to downtown Durham to the hat store, which was called Joe Bell's. But he said that Joe Bell's had a Jim Crow system where if a black woman came into the store to try on a hat, she was asked to put on a veil in order for her hair to not touch the hat.

But a white woman would not have to do that. It's just like setting the stage of what fashion was like, where he grew up. Right. What he saw. Exactly. His parents divorced when he was nine years old. But he said no one told him that his parents divorced. He figured it out on himself when they started visiting him separately. Oh, so they're in Washington like his whole childhood. His whole childhood. And like they do this. I think they helped.

provide for him as well, but his grandmother was really the one that raised him. And they would come see him often. Oh, okay. He had a really good relationship with his dad, but he had a pretty strained relationship with his mom. He said, quote, Oh, God. And later he says that he thinks his mom resented his grandmother for doing the thing that she couldn't do, which was raise him. Mm.

So she like took it out on him even though she made that choice. But she had to. She had to. I know. It's like so complicated and complex. Oh, that's really sad. I know. He said that physical intimacy was kept to a bare minimum. He can only remember two times in his life where his grandmother hugged him. Like she was very loving. That's just not the way that she... She was very stoic. He's also not seen to...

parents be intimate, which is actually a point that he made as well, but his parents were not in the picture and then they were divorced. So he never saw any physical intimacy of any kind. Yeah. It is like weird as a kid. It is, you know, you're just like, so what's it supposed to be like? Exactly. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I forgot to give a trigger warning. Um, this,

We will talk about sexual assault as well as eating disorders in this. So I just want to give you a trigger warning. I'm so sorry that that didn't happen at the beginning of the episode. When he was a child, a man who was known as Coke Brown lured Andre into the woodshed directly underneath Andre's childhood home.

And then Andre said, quote, where he proceeded to take advantage of my youth and my activity when it came to sexual encounters. No. Yes. And then he said he would tell Andre that it was their secret game and that this continued to happen with the older boys who were around their neighborhood when he was playing with their younger siblings. Oh.

So he said that he was terrified that someone would find out about this. He said that he feared if his grandma found out about this, she would be like, why did you go downstairs with an older man? Even though that's not his fault at all. Yep. The shame, the shame. And then he was afraid if his dad found out that he would be disgusted with him and that he would be shamed from the church. So he really internalized that and said that he had to learn to live in with

in silence with that. Oh, God. He just has no one to talk to. And it makes, it just breaks my heart. Every time we talk about this on an episode, it's just like. Devastating. It's just devastating. It is. It's just completely unfair. But his escape from reality as a child was when he was at the library and he discovered Vogue magazine. Can you even? I feel like I'm going to cry. I know. That's like so sweet. By the age of 12, he said. I'm like already tearing up.

Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. He said his world had become the glossy pages of Vogue. Vogue was his inspiration. When other kids were putting up baseball cards on his wall, he was obsessed with it.

It's going to be a long episode. I know. No kidding. It's just so sweet. It's so sweet. And I love his passion so early on. His passion for fashion. Passion for fashion. But he would fill his walls with the pages of Vogue. And he would love to read about Truman Capote's balls and Gloria Vanderbilt's gorgeous gowns. And he just soaked it up. And he dreams of living a life like the pages he saw in Vogue where nothing bad could happen.

happen. It's like Stanley Tucci in Devil Wears Prada. He's like, oh, I don't know. Just like maybe some little boy who's hiding Vogue under his set. I would say there are some parallels. I actually looked up to see if Stanley Tucci's character was based on Andre Leon Talley and that might be foreshadowing for the end. Oh my God. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Oh, this makes me nervous. Yeah. Well, okay. So as a child, he also, this also makes me want to sob, he became a devoted Francophile. So he was obsessed with all things French. Sunday mornings, he would watch Julia Child and he just loved this American woman like taking on this French accent and all things French. He's a little gay boy.

It's the most like glorious thing. It's just so tender. It's so tender. He majored in French. So he ended up majoring in French studies at North Carolina Central University, which is an HBCU. He then received a full scholarship to Brown University. Damn. Beauty and brains. Smart pants. No kidding. He gets his master's degree and began pursuing his doctoral. That's how you do it? Doctoral.

Listen, I'm not going to Brown. I'll tell you that much. And his plan was to be a French teacher at a private school somewhere, anywhere. He just wanted to get out into the world. The man loves French. He loves French. He lives for French. Wow. He was like reincarnation. He was a French royalty. Yeah, yeah. He must have been. And his fluent French would actually serve him very well in the fashion world. That is true. Those little bitches. Literally. Literally.

It's so true. So at Brown, he felt like he was no longer restrained by his small town, small southern town. Yeah. He felt like he could find his own style, and he would wear this vintage surplus Navy Admiral's coat that was in perfect condition and went all the way to the floor, cropped sailor pants and Oxford shoes with a little heel. Icon. Icon. He said that he actually...

Got into thrift shopping from Barbara Streisand. She has some song about thrift shopping. And he's like, if it's good enough for Barbara, it's good enough for me. Were people kind to him? At Brown? Yeah. Yes. His fashion starts catching the eye of the kids at the Rhode Island School of Design, which is called RISD. Do you know that? I think so. I guess it's an affluent fashion school or designs. I don't know. You know I love it. Same. East Coast, like affluent. I'll be there. So there's...

These kids were like, wow, love your style. And they opened up a whole new world for them.

They were these wealthy kids that like brought China plates to school, lived in like huge apartments. They're like 18 years old. Like, was that your college experience at all? Absolutely not. Like, can you imagine? And they were all from New York. And so it's like, he's kind of like rich and he's like, these are kind of my people. And so he would go from the Brown campus to the RISD campus. And instead of going out, they would stay in and dress up together and take these elaborate photo shoots and like

Just play. So he becomes friends with Jane Clyman and Reed Evans, I believe. Jane's father was the head of Kaiser Roth Hosiery and Reed's uncle was David Evans, the shoe magnet. So fashion nepo babies. And they would take him to fabulous fashion parties in New York where he would get to meet all these designers and editors and it just thrills him. So when he gets back to Rhode Island, he's like, fuck Brown.

I'm going to New York. He's like, she is. Yeah. However you say, how do you say au revoir? Is that? Au revoir. Yeah, goodbye. In French. Also, isn't like the stereotype about brown? I mean, no. I don't know a stereotype about brown. I don't mean to be offensive, but it's like, it's like ugly people. I'm so glad that you just said that.

like literally get me out of here onto New York honey. Cannot. But didn't Emma Watson go to She did and that woman is anything but unattractive. And that's the truth. And like that's not even I think it's just like how colleges get those stupid All the Ivy Leagues. That's Browns are for the ugly people.

I am so sorry. No, I enjoy it. So one of his RISD friends' dad writes him an introduction letter to the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Full circle. Full circle. And Dion Vreeland, which...

I've seen it pronounced Diana Vreeland and we touched on her in the Met episode, but he pronounced her Dionne Vreeland in the book. So I'm going to go with the way that Andre said it. Of course. Dionne Vreeland was hiring volunteers to assist with her curation of an epic exhibit, Romantic and Glamorous Hollywood Designs.

Which sounds like such an amazing Met theme. Oh, my God. This was in the 70s? This was in the 60s, I believe. I think it's 60s. Maybe 70s. Either one is chic as hell. But I think it's the second official Met costume thing. So at this time, Dionne Vreeland was the editor-in-chief at Vogue for almost 10 years. And she is considered to be one of the great fashion editors of all time. Yeah.

And she like, and I also looked up to see if Edna Mode from The Incredibles was based off of her. Oh, Hannah told us to do her. We should do her. And she sent a picture of The Incredibles and I was like, wait, what? Yeah, so she's actually based off of costume designer Edith Head. Oh, she told me to do her. Her, yes. We're doing Edna Mode. But I was watching YouTube clips of Edna Mode today. She is such an icon. I've never seen it. What? No. No.

I know. Tess. I'm sorry. Add it to our high movie night list. Okay. He's thrilled about this opportunity. So he's going to be a volunteer there. And the first day they hand him the shoe box filled with metal discs and a pair of needle nose pliers. And they tell him to fix it. And he's like, what is this?

that I'm supposed to fix. He's like, I don't do that kind of stuff. I was like, this is not for me. He's like, I'm pretty. Yeah, literally. And they were like, it's a dress, so you just have to figure it out. Oh. And it was a famous dress that got him completely forgetting, but it was one of the Hollywood starlets wore in a movie. Oh. So he, they're like, fix this. And by the way, Dion Vreeland will be by in a second to check your work.

Terrifying. Terrifying. And he somehow figures it out and he puts the whole dress together. And Dionne Vreeland was like, who did this? And they're like, the new kids. So she's like, Andre, meet me in my office.

And she says, you're going to be by my side day and night until the show is finished. Let's go, kiddo. Get cracking. Wow. And so he's like, okay. Oh. Yeah. And so for the next six weeks, they become super tight. And he said this is like the best fashion school he ever got to be in because he was just by her side. He learned to speak the language of style, fantasy, literature. He hung on her every word, every utterance. And he said she was drama and elegance.

Hey, don't we know about that? We love a woman who is drama and elegant. It's our toxic trait. It really is. And I love, so he towered over her. Andre Leon Talley was 6'6".

Holy shit. Six, six. And he is like a string bean at this point of his life. And she is like so little. And she's this older woman. He's this like tall, lanky kid. And he's just hanging on her every word. I'm imagining like Project Runway of him just like having like a deadline and her coming in and just like looking over his shoulder. Make it work. Yeah. But he's just soaking up all of this information. But he's not getting paid for any of this. Remember, because it's all volunteer work.

Oh, so Andre is like, I got to go back home to Durham, North Carolina soon because I'm broke.

And she's basically like, if you go back to the South, you're never going to come back here. Yeah. Like New York was meant for you. You've got to stay here. You can't even go home for Christmas. Then he's like, cut me a paycheck, please. And then I can. It's like, if you could pay for my rent, that would be great. Pay for my work. Anything. So she starts raving about him to all of her friends, Oscar de la Renta, Halston, Carolina, Carolina Herrera. And she made sure he was invited to all the right parties too. Yeah.

She's like, you got to meet this kid. Wow. So one night at a party, the right hand man to Andy Warhol was like, can you come to the factory and meet with Andy Warhol? And Andre was like,

I'm there. He's like, sure. You got it. And that month, he becomes an assistant at Andy Warhol's magazine, Interview Magazine, which I had no idea Andy started Interview Magazine. Was it always kind of like the hipster magazine? Yes, because it was Andy Warhol. Did you see the recent pictures of Alex Earle in the water for her interview shoe? I sure did. With the Lana Del Rey cover? I sure, sure did. And Andy Warhol started that. And Andre Leon's how he worked there. That's just so crazy. He made $75 a week, which today...

Thank God. The calculator is about 500 today. So honestly, is your first job like...

I mean, it's not great. Yeah, but not bad. Not terrible. For like assistant stuff. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and that's, he was a glorified receptionist. He said he took messages and picked up lunch. He said his hours were from 12 p.m. to 6 p.m. I was like, a dream. Wait, oh, then that actually makes sense for $500. I was like, I would take it for that schedule. Just sign me up. And he would just have all these fabulous people would come through the factory, like Diana Ross, Princess Caroline of Monaco, Fran Lebowitz,

And he's just in the front lines of all these crazy cultural events and people. Damn. And at interview, everyone dressed pretty casual, he said. But he would dress to the nines. He would wear a vintage top coat and trousers. And because of all this, he was the go-to fashionista. And so if there was ever a fashion story, they'd be like, well, ask Andre. Wow. Which gets him promoted to the fashion editor. He moves up very quickly. Yeah.

God, it's just like a lesson in like, don't be afraid to make yourself big. You know, like when you're just always scared, you're like, is this too much to wear? Say it again. Like fucking wear it because it just is such a statement of like your boldness. Yes. Like be who you are and express yourself and it will pay off. It gets you places. It does. It does.

And so now, since he's a fashion editor at Interview, he is on the front lines with all the stars of society and fashion. He said his favorite fashion subject was Bianca Jagger. And he tells... This is why you guys have to read the book. He tells these stories about going to her hotel room and make Jaggers asleep on the bed. And they're filling up her Louis Vuitton trunks with all these fabulous clothes and going to photo shoots. I'm like...

Did he go to Studio 54? Oh, he sure did, honey. He said he went to Studio 54 four nights a week and still made it into the office. Oh, my God. Was he drugging? He said that he didn't participate in the drugs as much.

And not the sex, but he said he was there for dancing. He danced with strangers. He danced by himself. He just lived for the dance floor. God, I bet it sounds so fun. Check out our Studio 54 episode. You were like transported back in time. I love that episode. And much like Studio 54, Andy Warhol's factory was like, it didn't matter if you were a princess or if you were a McDonald's cashier. You were.

I just had a conversation about this earlier. That's why we're laughing. But you were welcome. It just like meant that you were interesting. You didn't have to be rich. Yes. So he gets a big opportunity in 1975 to interview Karl Lagerfeld, who at the time was a designer at Chloe. I'm stirring my straw. I'm dipping my tea bag. I'm so sorry. There's no other way to tell you a visual of what I was doing. It is just...

My apologies. I welcome that. So Andre and Carl, they do an interview at the Plaza Hotel. Oh, also before. Andre is like really big. Andre would be a rammy. And if I may be so bold to say that. Because he was such a learner and he just wanted to know the stories behind things. And like, so before he goes to interview Carl, he researches everything about him. So they go to the Plaza for the interview and it goes amazing. Like, I...

Carl and Andre really connect. Andre was such a breath of fresh and he really knew his stuff. You're right to be weary. I'm scared. And after the interview, Carl takes him to his room and just starts giving him all these luxury clothes. He's like, you look great in this. You look great in that. And it's like, do you think he was a little bit like, you're my little project?

Was it like dominion or no? I think at this meeting, Carl literally was like, I've never had an interview where someone knew their shit so well. So you respected him? Yes. I truly think that Carl did respect Andre. Andre in his book said, that's how Carl and I met. We would stay friends for 40 years until we weren't. Foreshadowing foreplay. Why hasn't this been a movie? I don't know.

I know. Okay, well, so apparently there's an interview with Tamron Hall and Andre Leontel. I fucking love Tamron Hall. And he was saying there's some optioning for movies and they were talking about who might play him. And he said that he was talking to Leslie Odom Jr. That's his name. Oh. The actor who was on Hamilton. Yes. Oh, that would be so good. It would be so good.

Oh, good. Oh, wow. And I just love that man. Fingers crossed. Mm-hmm. So since Andre is making more of a name for himself in the fashion world, he interviews at Women's Wear Daily, and he gets a job as the fashion accessories editor. And he starts with a salary of $22,000 a year, which is much bigger than $75 a week. And today, that would be over $123,000. Oh, good for him for his third job. Right. For his second paid job, really. Oh, yeah, that's right, because he wasn't paid. Yeah.

So it's a massive leap for him. Is he living like by himself in a New York apartment? Yeah, he's living by himself. So Women's Wear Daily was considered to be like the fashion Bible at the time. And John Fairchild, who owned WWD and invented W Magazine, was like a god. But

if he didn't like you, he would literally cut you out of photos in his magazine. Like if there was a group shot with people, he would literally like cut you out. And if he didn't like you, he'd also find really unflattering pictures of you and put it in the magazine. Who hurt him? Like literally, why so cruel? So he didn't even really acknowledge Andre when he first started working there. But Andre's first reporting assignment was to cover a party given by Diane von Furstenberg.

And she was married to Prince... My queen. Queen. I love her. I know. I love her too. And she was married to Prince Egon von Furstenberg and they were the it couple at the time. I mean... Can you imagine? Like, perfection. Perfection. Elegance. Elegance.

She's not married to him still. I don't think so. But she has had a longtime husband, I think. I don't know. But I know she has grandchildren who are also the socialites. And they were at Sophia Richie's wedding. Was she there too? I don't think she was. Did you watch her reality show? No, but I remember it. Or the city. Was that what it was called? That was with Whitney. Wasn't it House of DVF or something like that? There was House of DVF on E and then there was...

Well, do you remember her Target line? I sure do. Well, the wrap dress. The wrap dress. She created it. She started it all. She did. And so he would go to like report at these parties, but then people started hanging out with him. His Southern manners and unique sense of style had all these New Yorkers like, who the hell is this kid? Like the De Laurentiis, Oscar De Laurentiis and his first wife truly just completely took him under his wing. When Oscar De Laurentiis presented his collection, Andre was in the front row with his wife. And that is such a big.

deal. No kidding. Just this kid making his way up. And he was able to straddle the line between, Andre was between old school designers like Oscar De La Renta and Ralph Lauren who were like refined. But he was also really tight with the new wave of designers who were like

living the crazy life, loving cocaine like Halston. And he would go over to Halston's house for dinner and Andre said that Halston would serve a baked potato and caviar, which is like Kathy Hilton. Yum. And sour cream. I want that so bad. I love caviar so much. Why don't we, we need to have a night. Let's have a night and do baked potatoes, sour cream, and caviar. How much is the thing caviar? Like a little tin. I mean, listen, if we split it, put it on the card. Put it on the card. Write it off. Write it off.

And then, well, he said for dessert, they would have, or Halston would have a small mountain of high class cocaine. I mean, like they probably weren't even eating if they were on all that coke. No kidding. What a waste. Andre said that he would do a line or two here and there, but what he really wanted to spend his money on was luxury clothes and not drugs. I love that.

I love that. So that's what really goes quick, doesn't it? Yeah, it sure does. But, you know, luxury clothes, that's an investment. It really is. And he like he just has the best stories in his book. He talks about like this crazy party on Fire Island with Manolo Blahnik and their rum was spiked and they just walked on the beach and laughed for like 14 hours. He's just like the life that he lived was amazing.

So after all these fun times in New York, WWD promotes him to the Paris correspondent and he just takes over Paris immediately. They called him the king of Paris. Was that his first time going to Paris? No.

Must have been. And you know how much he loves French. Truly. So he's like stoked on this. And him and Karl Lagerfeld become even closer. They talk every day on the phone. He said, quote, we spoke early in the morning before I left the house almost every day. He loves socializing by telephone. We see each other at lunch or dinner or at a party and then go home and talk for two hours before going to bed and starting the whole thing over. Is that not us? Yeah.

Like constantly. Truly us in our memoir talking about each other. Like we just literally never stopped. Was there? No. No. No, like there was no romantic love there. No romance. They just had like a connection. Also, Andre becomes really tight with Betty Couture, I think is how you say her name. And she was Yves Saint Laurent's muse, which I can't imagine being a famous fashion designer's muse. Yeah.

Like, how does that even start? I don't know. You're just really hot and someone's like, let me dress you. I think you're probably hot and rich and cool. And so they – and she like wore these like – she wore a lot of like pantsuits and stuff. YSL is so chic to me. It's the same. Like Zoe Kravitz always wears YSL to the Met. I always thought that was like a chic house. It truly is. But the thing was that it was rare that you'd be really close with Yves Saint Laurent and Karl Lagerfeld because they hated each other. Mm-hmm.

And do you know why they hated each other? No. A man. Karl Lagerfeld's boyfriend. Now, I... Oh, my God. Yep, yep. It was all a love triangle sort of thing. But I don't even think a love triangle because I, you know, Karl had him, but Eves wanted him. So, I didn't know how to pronounce his name exactly. So, I called in help. And so, this is how you pronounce Karl Lagerfeld's boyfriend's name from Marta. Okay.

Jacques de Bachelet. I'm turned on. Call in your friends who can speak French. Anytime I hear Marta talk, I'm just like, say it again. Same. I mean, that's not even the only language that our friend Marta knows. But Jacques de Bachelet. I called a friend. I'm like, who is she going to say? Could have been anyone. Could have been anyone. So Jacques was Carl's boyfriend. He was a French aristocrat, super fabulous. And Yves Saint Laurent wanted him and he hated Carl for it. Wow. Wow.

So Andre was like, Andre and Paloma Picasso, Pablo Picasso's daughter, were the only people who were friends with both of them. Which I'm also like, God, these socialite nefbo babies, I want to live in that world. Even for a day. A day and go to their fabulous parties. Just go to their house. And go to their closet. The closet. Please. Andre gets promoted again to being editor at

the European editor at WWD and W Magazine. He said, I had never doubted that I could be the best writer and stylist for WWD. They had chosen me. Paris was my oyster.

I like this for him. So I'm just like picturing Devore's Prada right now. I know. Like I'm just picturing him on the streets, like living it up, living it up. So he interviews Carl again towards the end of 1978 for W and Carl gives a very intimate interview to Andre because he trusts him so much. And like, so they could actually really connect and no one ever got this from him. And through Carl, Andre learned even more about fashion, furniture, literature, and social history. They really bonded at their love of learning and rich history. Yeah.

So maybe even Carl would be a Ramy. Maybe. Well, I guess we'll take it. I'll take Andre over Carl. But Carl would give him the inside news and scoops on the Paris fashion world. And he became a very important source. And people wanted to get to know Andre because he was friends with Carl. Wow. Because it's hard to become friends with Carl. And Andre did it effortlessly. He asked people, like, what do you think?

Literally. And they're like, who is this guy? And so during this time in his book, he talks about being a black man in Paris and the fashion industry. I mean, it was the first time this industry had seen a black man in Paris at the fashion shows in a position of power and importance.

He talks about in 1978 that Givenchy showed only black models in his high chic couture collection. And no designer had ever done that before. Oh, wow. So Andre was on the front row and he immediately went home to write about it. And he said if he didn't write about the importance of it, no one would. And so he said these kinds of things were quiet activism for him at the time. And he said he embraced Givenchy not because he had all black models.

models wearing his clothes, but because he was smart enough to realize that those models gave the clothes new attitude. But the way that Andre says attitude, he says attitude. I love it. What an angel. What an angel. But it was also around this time that

God, I bet he did.

And we see that he internalizes a lot of stuff in his life. But it's like, I feel like he was truly the only person of color. Like, true. In the industry. Yeah. And, you know, there were some things that weren't so subtle that happened to him. Paloma Picasso told him that YSL's publicist was calling him Queen Kong. Ugh.

um he he said that he it was so shocking to him because he was like I felt completely accepted by people I'm part of the community and to know that someone was calling me an ape behind my back it's so disgusting but he said Paloma Picasso I mean I think she handled it very well she just took his hands and said you are so loved oh I know it's like should you even tell him that you know like but then at the same time it's like don't trust all these people there you know but then I

Well, it's also like, God, this fashion community is so fucking hard to get in with in the first place. And he has to deal with that bullshit. No kidding. Oh, it's just, man. But he pushed on. And he kind of came to a breaking point in the fall of 1979 with WD when one of his bosses stood up in a meeting and said, Andre, there are rumors that you're sleeping with every designer in Paris and it has got to end.

How did this rumor start? Was he, like, seen with anyone? I think that how it started is that people were like, how could he possibly be friends with everyone? He must have to be sleeping with them. And there it is. And Andre said that he thought to himself, well, God, I must be so busy if I'm sleeping with every single fashion designer in Paris. I mean, no kidding. Like, that's the dream, right? Right. Well, actually, he has talked about that, like...

He literally goes on to not have a romantic partner for the rest of his life. Oh, I was going to say, like, do you think he's lonely?

I think he put so much of his life into his career that he didn't leave space for any other relationship. And I think his childhood trauma really carried into that. And he never knew how to deal with it because he never properly talked about it with someone. Did he have like casual hookups or was he just like really not like a sexual person? He was not a sexual person at all. And he said that he completely just

lacked that his entire life. Sad because of what happened, obviously. Exactly. Not sad if you're like asexual. No, that was taken from him. That was not his choice to do that. So he actually, he said he politely got up and left the room and then he writes a resignation letter, but he gets it notarized because he was like, I want public record that I'm resigning because I don't want any rumors starting saying that I left because I was stealing or I was fired for something like that. Which is also like sad that he

even has to do that. How do people learn how to do all these things, you know? My mom can notarize things. Can't Adrian? I thought he could. He used to be able to. And then it expired or something. I mean, the thought of it. Yeah, you can make a lot of money if you're like a private notary. Should we? Notary? Maybe. I don't even know where to begin with that, but I'm like. Sound interesting. I think you get like 50 bucks a signature in California or something. Oh, I'll be there with my new rampants. What?

Thanks, Deb. Check out our Instagram story if you haven't seen it already. Deb got us some really cute monograms. So sweet. Or engraved pins. So sweet. But back to Andre. So he goes back to New York and he does freelance writing pieces and he gets, he ends up getting a job at Ebony Magazine, which it's a very famous black,

Okay. And he said this was a very big deal because his family didn't really care about WWD, but they read Ebony and they were so excited. So they're like proud of him. Yes. So Mrs. Johnson, the owner of the magazine, she would do amazing things. Okay. Also, I think it's pronounced Ebony.

Haute Couture instead of Haute Couture. You are so right. Haute. Haute Couture because I definitely said a Haute Couture. I sure did as well. And we can just let that one slide. Yeah, we'll let it slide. And now we know better, we do better. So she would buy these Haute Couture pieces and then bring them back to New York and do a fashion show of these high fashion pieces specifically

for black communities and then all the money raised at these fashion shows would go directly to charity. So amazing. Yeah. Love that she's doing that. And they become really tight. He loved his time at Ebony, but in the end he was just too expensive. So they had to let him go. But in 1982, Karl Lagerfeld takes over at Chanel and it's a big deal because he is not French and he is now leading the top fashion house in Paris. Do you know who was French?

Yves Saint Laurent. And so it is a huge jab to Yves Saint Laurent. Oh my God. He's like, you stole my goddamn house. Oh my gosh. He stole my goddamn house. Watch your mouth. You take that back.

You guys know if you know. Yeah. Carl always flies out Andre for his shows in Paris and he puts them up. And at Carl's first Chanel show, Andre is just so overcome with how gorgeous the show is and how like excited he is for his friends. So he starts just like cheering and clapping in the front row of the show. And he's like,

And this is a no-no in the fashion community. Oh, you have to look like you don't give a shit. You have to look like you don't give a shit. You don't clap. You don't do any of that stuff. That's so tender. It's just like, okay. Like, I would do the same thing for you. I would too. And that's how it should be. Like, show when you're excited. But... That's so weird. Isn't it so weird? I just love that he was so excited for his friend that he did that. But people did not like that, including the current editor-in-chief at Vogue, Grace Marabella.

She thought that Andre was annoying and she thought that he was just where he was because he was friends with Carl. And she thought that he didn't really know anything about that. Well, it's none of your goddamn business. No kidding. Except when he interviews at Vogue twice and doesn't get a job because she doesn't vibe with him. It is. It is. It turns out it is Grace's business. But then she sees this interview.

that Andre did with Carl and she's like, wait a minute, you actually do know what you're talking about and you actually can talk to high-end designers. I like you. She's like, come back here. You're hired. Oh, wow. So she... How quick the change of heart. You're annoying, but you're hired. But that's actually kind of annoying. It's like he had this the whole time and people just had to see that he could talk to Carl Lagerfeld. Oh.

Oh, it's such like a status thing in the fashion industry. And it's also just so like, oh, if you're like refined and elegant, like I feel like she didn't like him because he had like spirit. Yeah. It was like interesting because he was a real person. So he gets hired as the God. I wrote it down. Oh, the fashion news editor. And as he's walking out of the office, he passes by in a winter.

And they say hello. They didn't know each other, but he knew her. He said he had always been terrified to go up and talk to her. Like if they were out and he saw her out, Andy Warhol would be like, just go talk to her. And then he'd be like, hell no. That would be like me. Same. I'm not even going to look at her in the eye. You can't. No, you shouldn't. I'm not going to approach her. No, no, no. So they say hello. That's it. By the time he gets home, there's a letter waiting for him, a handwritten letter that says, welcome to Vogue. I look forward to working with you, Anna. Yeah.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place. You

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everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan your wedding from

the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. Man, maybe the devil works hard, but Anna Wintour works hard. I think so. How'd you get that letter to us? I would just like overanalyze that letter for like six hours. I'd be like, okay, so she said, welcome. Does that mean like I am welcome? Is that what she says to everyone? I'm

Like, there would be no chill involved. So he, but he took it as like, okay, great. I have an ally at Vogue now. Oh. Anna Wintour was creative director at Vogue at this time, which was a made up title. But she was given that because Condé Nast put her there to push Grace Mirabella out.

Oh, so made up title. So they were like, this is what it is now. So everyone kind of like was like, is Anna our boss? Is she not our boss? No one really knew. Yeah. They actually become close. Andre was the only person at Vogue who was invited to her wedding, which was in the middle of the day and the middle of the week. And all of her ex-boyfriends were invited and showed up.

That sounds like a nightmare. Is she a witch? That's so haunting. Haunting. Why would she do that? It's so weird. Can you imagine all your ex-boyfriends at your wedding in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week? I don't want to. I don't either. Imagine such scary images. Speaking of VPRs, Katie Maloney and Tom Schwartz get married on a Wednesday.

I was like, guys, but they spent $1,800 on tea towels for the invites, which was the trashiest thing I've ever seen. I would throw that tea towel right out the window. In the trash. Throw it in the garbage. So two years later, Anna Wintour becomes editor-in-chief at British Vogue, and she asked Andre to come along with her as creative director. But when he went to Paris with WWD, everything was paid for, and they weren't going to do that for British Vogue. So he was like, nah. What's Sheikah, creative director, editor-in-chief?

Well, Editor-in-Chief is the top title. Oh, is it? But Creative Director. I know. I'm like, God, so cool. Can you imagine? Give me that creativity. At Vogue. Gorgeous. It's like every little girl's dream. It really is. You know? It really is. So Anna Wintour actually then goes to House and Garden as a trial reporter.

I'm like, what? Sweetheart. And apparently it was like Condé Nast was putting her at all these places because they knew she was going to the top. And I'm like, house and garden? Am I underestimating house and garden? Maybe it was a huge thing in like the 80s. I guess. Well, she brings Andre and within a few months and they do good work there. Within a few months, she was named chief of Vogue. Chief editor of Vogue. Damn. So Grace Marabella is out. And you know how she found out? Watching TV. Yeah.

it was announced that way no one called her oh God what that's so bitchy I can't oh God so rude um so Grace is out and Anna is in how much money do you think Anna winter makes like a lot

Okay. I'll just go ahead and say this now. Also, in the interview with Andre Leontelli and Tamron Hall, he told her that the highest he was ever paid at Vogue was $300,000. And he found out that women in his same position were making a million. Yeah. Wow. And there it is. Jesus. Yeah. No kidding. Injustice. So...

Now Anna Wintour is the chief editor in Vogue and she names Andre as creative director now. He is now the highest ranking black man in the fashion journalist community. Go, Andre, go. Go, Andre, go. So Anna runs things very different than Grace did. Grace would have these marathon meetings and Anna...

would if a meeting went past 15 minutes she was like we're done here I've seen TikToks about Anna's like work ethic and like that was one of it it's like do not even think about going more than like 10 to 15 minutes over a meeting because she wants it in out like no fuss I respect it but like god our meetings are quote meetings I Bravo recap

We could never work with Anna Wintour. Oh, we could never. She also, like with Grace, everything, everyone had an opinion. Everyone got to like bring in their ideas. Anna, no. If you did a photo shoot and Anna didn't like it, she wouldn't tell you. It just wouldn't end up in the magazine. No notes. She just would cut it.

Oh, God. Yeah. So scary. I don't think I'd work well in this environment. No, no, no, no, no. But Andre is finally feeling like he's living in fashion heaven. He's up front row of every single show. He's writing top fashion journalism. And also Karl Lagerfeld, again, was major leverage from him at Vogue because they were so close. But I just want to talk a little bit about how Andre said being what being Karl's friend was like. OK, he would give you these insane, luxurious gifts. Yeah.

right like antiques clothing everything and then like five years later he'd be like i actually want that back and he would take it back from you so all of his gifts were more like loans that is disgusting disgusting and you would never know like why or when he would do it that is disgusting he was notorious for dismissing and cutting people out of his life talk about disgusting his like even his best friends antonio was one of his fashion illustrators and closest friends and

Carl cut him out forever. And he would also not give an explanation. You wouldn't know what you would do. He just cut you out. So Antonio goes on to have to get AIDS and he has no money towards the end of his life and he's suffering. And everyone was like, Carl, will you please help him out and give him some money? And he wouldn't, he refused.

Oh, beyond that, Tess, you couldn't wear the same outfit twice with Carl. Even in the same day, if you guys have lunch, if you were staying at his house and he went for a nap, you would have to wear something different when you came back in. What's wrong with him mentally? There has to be something... His childhood was so dark. Andre touched on it a little bit. And maybe we will do a Carl Lagerfeld episode or something. But his mother...

And there it is. And there it is. Say no more. His mother was terrible to him. What? Is he German? Yes. And there it is. And there it is. Sorry.

Wow. I mean, it all, it's all making sense. Yeah, exactly. But he would also give his friends like black Amex cards to go shopping and send private jets for them. Well, this is the thing with these kind of people. You like love buy because you have nothing else really to offer like emotionally. Yep. And then you make people feel bad about it later. It's all like under your control because it's the gifts you're giving. Oh, totally. It's like very toxic. It's very toxic. Yeah.

So in 1988, both Andre's grandma, Mama, and Dionne Reeland both pass away. Oh, God. The same year. This obviously wrecks him. I mean, these were like the most important women in his life. He resorts to binge eating as a method of coping. Mm-hmm.

And we see how through his life he's really hidden his pain when he was alone and internalized it. But I just want to say, like, I think he is so brave for how open he is in his book about talking about binge eating. Yeah. Especially in the fashion community. Yeah.

I feel like with addiction, we talk about alcoholism, we talk about drugs, but we don't talk about eating disorders as much of an addiction. Totally. I don't think people understand it like even at all. Right. And also, this might sound crazy to say, but I see that the way that alcoholism and drug addiction is seen as sometimes almost like glamorized and sexy in a way, but binge eating is not. It's

So true. And also I feel like people don't understand binge eating as much because it's like, oh, well, anorexia is an eating disorder because you're like 50 pounds, right? And it's like, there's so many other forms, but people don't like to accept it. Exactly. This is also at the height of the AIDS epidemic in 1988. And AIDS was just tearing through the fashion community. And at this time they're calling it gay cancer. It's just a horrible

The government is not even like helping or doing anything to acknowledge it. Or saying the word AIDS. Or putting any money into treatment. Exactly. So it's just such a lonely time. But he actually says that his sexual repression saved his life at this time.

which is like, there's so much. Oh my God. He said, quote, sex was not on my radar. Success was. And if I felt sad, I would eat. And if that didn't work, I would keep eating until it did. I claim it. Yes, I claim it for all the pain I must endure in the absence of love. Binge eating is mine.

Oh, that's really, really sad. Yeah. And I just like, I just think he's so freaking brave. Yeah. Also like for like a man sometimes to, to talk about eating disorders that you just don't hear it as much. Well, men do suffer from it. Right. Like,

There's no really space for them to have that vulnerability. Exactly. Like he's just such a pioneer in so many ways. That is very brave. So it's also at this time that Karl Lagerfeld lost the love of his life, Jacques. And so Karl invited on from AIDS and he wouldn't fucking donate to his friend. No, no.

Not like I'm saying he deserved anything bad to happen to his lover, but that's some fucked up shit. It's very dark-sided. And so Carl actually invites Andre to spend Christmas with him that year. And so Andre was like, we can grieve together. This will be great. Carl doesn't even mention Jacques. He doesn't ask Andre about his grandma or Dionne Vreeland dying. He completely avoids it. He completely avoids death or anything bad altogether. Yeah.

So he feels very lonely. This is why more men need to get into therapy from an early age. Kidding. Don't start it once you're like... Start it as soon as possible. Literally. So Anna is very gracious to him at this time. She can tell that he's suffering. So she's like, why don't you go to Paris and be a correspondent there? Get out of New York and have a fresh start. And so he does. And this is actually...

gorgeous for him because they pay for an amazing apartment, any restaurant that he wanted to go eat at. If he had a receipt, Vogue paid for it. Dry cleaning, assistant, driver, everything. Oh my God. What a life. What a good life. No kidding. And it's at this time that he discovers the designer, Galliano. Oh. So...

basically there was this fashion show that John Galliano did. Andre is like, you're a genius. Um, you should get your clothes out there. And he's like, I'm broke. I can't. So Andre puts all of his funds together. He gets in touch with Vogue. They raise all this money. They raise $50,000 for him to make a fashion show. All the top supermodels, Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell, Claudia Schiffer. They all agreed to do it for free. Manolo Blahnik donates all of his shoes and,

And then these top, like, fashion buyers are like, we love you. And so Andre Leontali really discovered and started, I think it's John Galliano. I mean, I know it's Galliano, but I think his first name's John. Career. However...

And then Galeano goes to work for Dior. Okay. Galeano had some drug issues and a video comes out of him having a mental breakdown. I guess you could call it that. And in this, he says a ton of racist and anti-Semitic things. He said, quote, I love Hitler. People like you would be dead today. Oh, great. Great, great. And that's just scratching the surface. But he probably has like no repercussions professionally. Anna Wintour continues to remain loyal to him and still orders dresses from him today.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's really tough. Like, it's not Andre's responsibility to hold Galliano accountable. But I just feel like because he says, like, it's so disappointing. However, like, he's sober now. I don't know. It's just like, I feel like in the entertainment and the fashion community, genius overrides everything. So they're like, but he's a genius. It is so, so true. And it's not up until recently where we've been like, well, maybe.

Maybe that doesn't really, you can't get a pass. Right, exactly. Yeah, but that's so true. But I just thought that was so interesting that he really put him on the map. And, but still Anna Wintour and Vogue gets all the credit. Like Andre doesn't really get the credit for it. So he's kind of at a breaking point with Vogue. So he walks out, he walks into her office and he's like, I'm out.

And he goes to Durham. He goes back to Durham and stays in his grandmother's house, which isn't really great for him at the time. That must be so dark. Exactly. But then he gets news. So it's kind of like a break in their relationship between Anna and Andre. But then Anna's husband calls and said that Anna's father had died and that

they couldn't get to the funeral and they asked if Andre could go because there was a snowstorm where they were so they couldn't get out. So Andre goes to the funeral and he is the only friend to be there with her. And that's how they amended their friendship. Holy shit, I have chills. Crazy. Like I wonder what that day was like for them. Like what was said, what wasn't said. Right. To be a fly on the wall. You're here and thank you. I feel like nothing was said. But everything was. There it is, Tess. And there it is.

Damn, this is like, this should be a movie. It really should. It really should. This is crazy. So he starts going back and forth between New York and Durham. He gets hired as a style editor at Vanity Fair. And this is where he has full creative freedom. And he knows if he does a shoot, it's going to end up in the magazine. And one of his most famous shoots that he does is titled Scarlet in the Hood. Have you ever heard of this photo shoot? No.

This sounds familiar. So as we know, Vanity Fair does a lot of photo shoots that have to do with cinema. Yeah. Yeah. And at the time, Galeano actually started the trend of hoop skirts, which is well, maybe shouldn't take a note from him. But

But that was clearly inspired by Scarlett O'Hara. And so Andre Leontali was like, listen, I can appreciate the scope of the costumes and how gorgeous they were, but I don't vibe with that movie, to say the least. Truly, to say the least. So he was like, I'm going to take this movie and make it my own. So how does he do it? He has Naomi Campbell play Scarlett O'Hara.

And Karl Lagerfeld is on board, and he's like, let's do this together. They cast fashion heavyweights as servants. So Manolo Blahnik, all white men, is cast as a gardener, and he's barefoot. John Galliano is a house servant. And Gianno Franco Ferre, I'm so sorry, I don't know who that is, who was Ronnie Dior at the time, he would play Hattie McDaniel's character. And Naomi wore Haute Couture by Dior, Cartier, and Chanel's most expensive gown ever at $200,000. That is...

Iconique. Iconique. And this is why representation is important and matters. Literally, though. Like, it's not that fucking complicated. Just make, like...

Exactly. Do more. Do more of this. Do more. And so he would also say like at this time, the runways were very blonde. And so instead of being like, you guys need to be more inclusive, he would be like, sure. But wouldn't that suit look amazing on Naomi Campbell to all of his fashion designer friends? And that is how he encouraged inclusivity in the runway shows. Wow.

Love him. Love. So this is all great, but his heart was really with Vogue. So he actually goes back. And at the time, Grace Coddington took his place as creative director. So he they name him editor at large. And he remains there until his death at Vogue. Oh, well, I didn't know. To foreshadow. I didn't know like a few few weeks ago. Remember? Oh, well, I thought that was Carl. Oh, yeah.

He is no longer with us. All your fashion girlies mixed up. I know. So he is back at Vogue. He says, I continued to escort Anna and share her chauffeured Mercedes sedan in Paris to the twice yearly ready-to-wear collection. My schedule is set around Anna Wintour's fittings as all of her clothes are fitted and altered for her. I would observe and offer my keen eye for fittings of dresses from Chanel and discuss fabric swatches from Prada, hers exclusively. So he kind of like styled her. Oh.

Like, I'm saying it. Everything Anna Wintour was at this time was because of Andre. Yeah, she's kind of like a...

I mean, she's like an accomplished woman, obviously, and like interesting and smart. But in a way, I feel like someone like her is like a blank canvas for just like other people kind of creating. Yeah. I guess that really takes away any of her accomplishments with me saying that. I completely don't mean that, but I just feel like he just doesn't get enough credit. So I'm frustrated. Yeah. I know. I feel like lots of people in that position, it's a lot of people that work for them and around them that like

They're the ones that made them iconic for all those different reasons. Exactly. And it's around this time that his weight starts creeping up and he goes to a meeting and Anna just doesn't say anything. But later she calls into his office and she says to him, you've got to go to the gym.

Never the most gentle way to say to anybody or say it all. So, but, you know, he starts getting a trainer that's paid for by Vogue. It's so crazy. I'm like, what's that person's story? Oh, my God. The things they have seen. The things they have seen. But, you know.

you know, his weight, he just continues to struggle with it and he can't fit into the suits that he really, you know, wants war. He's not comfortable in them, but instead he starts diving into research and he's like, what have powerful men throughout history wore? He researches Julius Caesar and then he sees what men wore, um, and the indigenous dressing in North Africa. And that inspired him to create his signature capes and caftans.

And people love it. They were like, where did you get that? I love it so much. And I'm just like, again, like don't conform to what other people be you. Totally. And like what a grand statement for someone already so tall and that like sticks out, unfortunately, in the fashion industry to be like, and I'm going to fucking put a cape on me. Yes. Like what a badass thing to do. Such a badass thing to do. He then gets a letter from SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design, which is like such a chic

design school. And they invite him to receive the Fashion Icon Award and teach a master class, which he is very proud of. And then he gets asked to present the Andre Leon Talley Lifetime Achievement Awards. He said, quote, so many firsts happened for me at SCAD. First, I never could have achieved or been recognized for in New York. I sometimes felt as if people in the world of Vogue and fashion in general had put me in a pre-assigned limited zone. Anna Wintour didn't see me in the role of curator. She failed to see my knowledge and gain understanding

My knowledge gained under the tutelage of Diane Freeland fueled me. I don't, sorry. That sentence was crazy. Anyways, learned everything from Freeland. Literally, she taught me how to analyze the power of fashion, its beauty, its technique, its historical relevancy, its worthiness to be viewed in an exhibit. Fashion can be an emotional experience.

And it really can be. And it can. And so scab like really nurtured that speaking of Vogue, not treating him the way he should be. One day he was at the office and he was met by the PR guy and the PR guy was like, you need to go downstairs to the conference room. And apparently you do not want to go to the third floor. It's not a good thing at Vogue. Oh, so he's like, I'm getting fired. So he's like, pull it together. Don't cry. Um,

He walks in and he sees his pastor, Oscar and Annette DeLorenza. Anna went to her and her boyfriend at the time. So then he's like, how fabulous. I might be winning an award. Anna tells him to sit down and then they proceed to tell him that his weight is out of control and that he's being sent to a rehab clinic in Duke. He has a first class ticket that day.

He said he was at a loss for words. And then it was really Anna who spearheaded that whole thing. And that the other people were just pretty much silent during all of it. I don't regret saying she's a blank canvas. Yeah. Or canva. Canvas. Canvas. Canva is the graphic design website. I just like graphic designing so much. That's right. Wow. What a...

Yeah. He said that he was like, he just got up and walked out and he didn't take that. You know, there's other ways to communicate if you're concerned about someone. No fucking kidding. And also it's like the weight is not the issue. It's behind. Like if you're... Exactly. It's like, hey, are you hurting about something? Exactly. Do you need to talk to someone? Exactly. Oh, I'm so mad at her. And also talk about...

Yeah. Projecting. I mean, maybe she should talk to someone as well. It's projection. So he, again, he loses 55 pounds on the program, but he never wanted to do the therapy sessions because he said he couldn't face his childhood trauma, which was the root of all of his weight issues. Yeah.

So again, it's like your friend's hurting. And it's like even that, like you're putting a bandaid over it. It's like, oh, you lost whatever amount of weight you're going to get back. And if you're still not like dealing with that. When he said Karl Lagerfeld was actually going through his own issues with weight at the time and seemed to be struggling with binge eating as well.

I mean, Andre spills it all in this book, the stories. But he said that this was during Carl's heavy fat phobia stage. And once Carl lost weight, he would comment on everything that Andre ate and drank. He'd be like, you really want to have that glass of wine? It's a lot of sugar. Why is he still hanging out with this man? I,

That's a great question. Well, that's also probably some childhood stuff. Complicated, yeah. And also it's like when- Wanting to be accepted. The king of fashion is like accepting. I feel like we've all had friends where you're like, I shouldn't be in this friendship anymore. And also like bosses and colleagues and stuff where you're just like,

You know, we've definitely had those experiences where you're like, why can't I say no to you? Exactly. But I can't. But on a brighter note, Anna asked Andre to do an interview for Michelle Obama for the vote cover after President Obama was elected. That's amazing. Amazing. He gets to go to the Obama's inauguration, which is such a major moment. Yes. And he's there with DVF. And while they're in their seats waiting for the Obamas to take the stage, she's like, you need to call your mother.

because he sorry when his grandma died him and his mother didn't speak till then and she was like I am a mother and I know that you need to call her in this moment. Oh DVF. Love her queen. She's so wise. I'm like how'd you get so wise? No kidding. Well he calls his mother who's in a nursing home and he tells the operator who he is and the operator comes back on and says she doesn't want to be disturbed by anyone.

He does eventually reconnect with his mother a few times and sees her before her passing. So that's good. That is good. But Andre introduced Michelle Obama to Taiwanese Canadian designer Jason Wu, who ended up making her gown for the 2009 inauguration. Jason Wu is iconic. That white one shoulder gown. Yes. I'm obsessed. Gorgeous. So good. It's so good. And that we can thank Andre Leon Talley for that. And just as new friendships are beginning because him and Michelle Obama become very tight, old friendships are ending. Yeah.

He said while Karl Lagerfeld could be extremely generous, he could also be dreadful like a blood-sucking vampire. Absolutely wicked, as Anna put it.

Yeah, he is wicked. That's a great way to describe him. You're just like something wicked this way comes as he walks down the hall. And it's like little thin body. Scary little fingers. Cat. Yeah. His ponytail. But so one of the things that it's a no-no is you don't ask Carl for money. That was like a really big thing. And Andre never did. However, there was this photographer, Debra Trevato.

Tuberville who recently passed away and Carl and her had worked together on this big shoot before and her dying wish to Andre was that he would do an exhibit of her photography. So Andre asked Carl if he would donate the money for the exhibit in her honor which was a quarter of a million dollars. That's a lot of money but Carl has it and Carl never speaks to him again.

Even though Carl was good friends with this photographer. He has something with like donating or like helping someone out with like their dying wishes. I'm like, what the fuck? Anything. Anything. So selfish. Said, quote, Carl Lagerfeld never reached out to me again. Chanel removed me from the guest list for the runway shows and removed me from the Christmas guest list. Well, good fucking riddance. Yeah. Seriously, you don't need it. Why do you surround yourself with people like that? I mean, I get it. You do not need it. Yeah.

And who were nearing our end. But we cannot talk about Andre Leon Talley without talking about the Met Gala. So he went to the second ever Met Gala with Dion Freeland with that exhibit and

Anna didn't let him choose a seat, and he was only allowed to bring a friend three times in his whole career with Vogue. And his first friend that he brought was Patricia from Southern Charm, which I don't know if she's on the first episode. Wait, what? Who is she? She's Whitney's mom.

Patricia, if you guys know... How are they friends? Because she's so rich. She's like old, old money. That is hilarious. And he mentions her twice in the book because she donated all of her vintage clothes to SCAD. It is all... It all goes back to Bravo. I see.

I literally screamed when I saw that. Oh my God. And then his second friend that he brought was Naomi Campbell. And then Whoopi Goldberg was the third friend that he brought. Iconic. So for five years, he was assigned to be the correspondent at the top of the stairs, which is the perfect place

position for him because he knows everything about fashion and he knows everyone. He's engaging. He's interesting. He said his favorite Met Gala moments was Beyonce's surprise appearance in 2012 and Rihanna in 2015 wearing Guapei, I believe is how you say his name. So good. Quote, Rihanna is forever in the annals of the Met, a real life dream. The power of a woman of color ascending to her deserved moment in the sun. She outshined every single star that night. It was glorious to behold. Oh,

So he one day didn't get an email from Vogue telling him the details of the Met Gala. And he was like, that's weird. They usually send the info of like where I'm supposed to go at this point, what I'm supposed to do. So he writes them. It's like, hey, I don't have details yet. And they just are like, oh, we thought that the interviews would be beneath you now. So we're not going to have you do this anymore.

Also, he like lived for this. He was the Mac Gala. They're such high school mean girls. And he knew it wasn't the interviews because the previous year Anna told him how much she loved his interview and it stuck out to him because Anna never gave a compliment. And so they replaced him with Liza Koshy or Koshy. I forgot how you say her name. It's the YouTuber. They replaced Andre Leon Talley with YouTuber.

The disrespect. The nerve. After decades of friendship, Anna didn't even have the decency to call him and explain. On Anna Wintour, Andre said, quote, simple human kindness. No, she is not capable. Basically, they have their falling out from that. He didn't hear from her till September, but he continues to go to every single one of her couture fittings.

He's too kind. He's too. Well, I truly think that he is like, this is still my work. That's true. And I will. And I'll sacrifice my own comfort. That way. He didn't have personal relationships. They were all like work relationships. I mean, even Anna Wintour in his documentary was like, he's always known more about fashion history. I don't have a good eye for that.

So she even admitted that. Well, you don't seem like you have a good eye for much. Exactly. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. He goes on to say in his book that literally like she only has friends who are in the highest chosen fields. And he's like, and I was no longer a value to her.

He closes his book by speaking of the pride of the next generation of black men and women in fashion. And he knows that he had a very important role and that he's excited to see people who remind him of his young self and see where they go. After his book was released, Anna Wintour put out a personal statement to the world. She apologized for her, quote, hurtful and intolerant behavior towards black people and the lack of diversity under her reign at Vogue. To which Andre said, quote, she will never allow anything or anyone to get in the way of her white privilege.

Yes, honey. Call her out. Also, yeah, a little too late in like what? 2019? No kidding. Oh, sorry. Vogue doesn't have any black people. My bad. Like, is she literally? So he talks at the time that he was discussing a long list of ideas for his February column. And she said from behind her desk, quote, Andre, Vogue is not here to run a column on your ideas on Black History Month. She's.

A monster. She's still running things today, folks. Still running things. She still is organizing who gets to go to the Met Gala. That's right. In his final paragraph of his book, he says, I hope reading this edition of my memoir will give you a woke moment of what it is like to be at the white space applauded by the whiteness of privilege and yet be a black man who overcame. So Andre Leon Talley died from complications of a heart attack and COVID-19 at a hospital in White Plains, New York on January 18th, 22 at the age of 73. Oh.

Rihanna, we know, paid a Super Bowl, like in her performance of Super Bowl, paid a tribute to him because they were so, like he loved Rihanna. It just breaks my heart that he died from a complication from COVID. Like what do you think it was? I think that he had asthma throughout his life. And so I think that's high risk. Yeah. Oh God, that's so fucking devastating. And I just want to wrap this whole thing up with the final paragraph from his book that I thought was really beautiful.

Quote,

I dreamed of the life that I have, that I have lived and I survived with dignity and grace. After all my ancestors survived their original sin of this great country's slavery, the injustice of having to suffer racism and survive. If this country can survive all the injustices, what is my plight and my burden?

I think it is a true wonder that I have come this far. I have always feared life. I love living and looking to the endless skies. The world can't hurt me. No one can hurt me when I live in the circle of faith, love, and prayer. It gives me unbridled joy to give love. I always wanted love.

I love Andre Leon's Holly. I love him so much. He might be like top three favorite people we've ever covered after this episode. I completely agree, Tess. Like when I was doing my research and listening to his book, I was just like, I'm so sad that I'm learning this after he's gone. I know. Same. I feel like I'm like, what have I been doing? Same. Oh. Oh. Oh? Is it? It happened with

It did. Whenever we do someone that has, that is no longer with us, the crows come. And I think that says a lot. Wow. Wow. Thank you, crows. Thank you, Andre. Thank you, Andre. Wow. Oh, I love him. I know it was a longer episode, but like, God, there's just, he's done so much. Literally, like, this could be like a three-parter. No kidding. And I, there needs to be a movie about him. There has to be. We should write one. We should. And just like,

Let these stories of Anna and Carl sit with you with reflecting on the Met Gala this year. I know. I felt like kind of annoyed by the Met Gala this year. I think we're not alone in that. No. And like both things can be true. You can love looking at beautiful people and beautiful people.

And at the same time, this is such a grotesque display of wealth. And Vogue is not a great place. Anna's not obviously a great leader in that. I've actually been seeing some critiques of her that since she's been at Vogue, all of the covers are celebrities. And they're not models anymore. And it's gotten to be really, I don't know, celebrity instead of fashion. Totally. Which I think a lot of...

We're going to that in a lot of ways, you know, just with like social media and all that that we talked about in the Met Gala episode of like, what is a celebrity anymore? Totally. But also what people were upset by, and I might be misspeaking, but what's new here? The Kim Kardashian Vogue cover, I think that a lot of people were like, that should have been Andre because I think it was like the month that was recent after his death and it should have been a tribute to him, which...

He hasn't even, like, there hasn't been a cover for him. I mean, because she can control that. And she has some sort of fucking... Yeah. He triggers her in some way that she will not allow herself to... Exactly. Accept what she did. So I don't think they ever... Because, you know, she made that apology. They could have mended their friendship. And I love that he was like, actually, here's more of what she said. Because he put that in the paperback version. That epilogue. That is amazing. But he's, like, such a... Like, I love that because...

You know, he's allowed to do that. He's been through so much like and he's still a kind person. Like he doesn't hit low. He just says it how it is. Exactly. And he's also showing that like as a black person and black gay man, you can be like, you know what?

I'm still going to talk about this and not accept your apology publicly. Exactly. And I don't have to be like, thank you. Exactly. God, we love you, Andre. Oh, we love you so much. That was beautiful, Claire. I'm so glad that this started. This is the perfect episode to start fashion month. Thank you. I know you were nervous, but this was amazing. Well, I highly encourage you guys to go read The Chiffon Trenches. There's so many stories. I would definitely love to read it. It's so good. And then listen to it on Audible if you don't want to read it. Julie, you love Audible. I do. I do. Sponsored. Sponsored.

Just kidding. Oh, guys. But thank you for sticking with us. We're excited for fashion month. Yes. Next week will be a little different. It's going to be so fun. But we're going to have fun with it. It's going to be a... We'll just keep you on your toes. Yeah, as we always do. Follow us on Instagram at Right Answers Mostly. TikTok, same thing. And give us a subscribe on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and a five-star review. Please do. We love you guys so much. Thank you for listening to us. Goodbye. Goodbye. Bye.