South African Serial Killers | Interview with Romano Dolbey - Part 1
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Welcome to the Serial Killer Podcast. The podcast dedicated to serial killers. Who they were, what they did, and how. Episode 172. I am your Norwegian host, Tomas Rosland Weyborg Thun. Tonight, I have a special treat for you, dear listener. Over the years, this show has included some fascinating and rare interviews you will be hard-pressed to find elsewhere.

Tonight is no exception. Not only do I speak to a man who is a true aficionado of serial killer lore, but he comes from the very place tonight's topic took and takes place. And the place, dear listener, is somewhere we in the West seldom get too much information about. I am, of course, talking about the great nation of South Africa.

My guest and interviewee tonight is none other than Mr. Romano Dolby. Enjoy.

As always, I want to publicly thank my elite TSK Producers Club. Their names are...

Marilyn, Meow, Missy, Nick, Oakley, Operation Brownie Pockets, Reed, Richard, Russell, Sabina, Skortnia, Scott, Shauna, Sputnik, The Radio, Tim, Tony, Trent, Vanessa, and Val. You are the backbone of the Serial Killer podcast, and without you, there would be no show. You have my deepest gratitude. Thank you.

I am forever grateful for my elite TSK Producers Club, and I want to show you that your patronage is not given in vain. All TSK episodes will be available 100% ad-free to my TSK Producers Club on patreon.com slash the serial killer podcast. No generic ads, no ad reads, no jingles. I promise.

And of course, if you wish to donate $15 a month, that's only $7.50 per episode, you are more than welcome to join the ranks of the TSK Producers Club too. So don't miss out and join now. So, welcome to the show, the Serial Killer Podcast. The topic of today is South African Serial Murder, a topic that I...

I'm excited to talk to you about because we have had a lot of interaction the last few months regarding this topic. You have done quite a bit of research. I'm color me impressed with your work. Sent me quite a lot of a lot of data regarding possible serial killings and actual serial killings in South Africa. But

Before we get into the juicy details, why don't we let our dear listeners get to know you a little bit, Mr. Dolby. Can you tell us who you are, where you're from, and how this interview came about? Sure. Hey, Thomas. Thank you for having me. I'm from South Africa, and let's just say I'm a lawyer. I think there's a whole

Bunch of different abbreviations and titles around the world as barrister, solicitor, advocate, attorney. I think we all just get bunched together as being called lawyers. So I'll just take that title and just say I'm a lawyer. I'm from South Africa and I'm not a criminologist or anything for that matter. I just have a passion when it comes to serial killers and serial offenders. You know, just trying to see if there's any sort of similarities between them.

I've been following a lot of them for years or a lot of patents for years. And I actually grew up living between two countries, the UAE and South Africa. So I've been moving back and forth. And at the moment, I'm working in Dubai as a legal advisor for a company here called BNZ. And we do everything from corporate law to criminal law as well. So that's what I'm doing at the moment. And then, yeah, on the personal front, I'm a dad, I'm a father of two and a husband of one.

And that's it. Yeah, and you listened to the Serial Killer podcast and reached out to me regarding a potential South African serial killer case. And that got the ball rolling, as they say.

And what started out as, hey, you know, locally here in South Africa, there's been a few murders that I think are serial killer cases and no one's talking about them. Maybe you could do a segment about that. And that has blossomed into quite a bit of comprehensive data regarding murder.

serial killers. I have here in front of me, let's see, 27 cases. Mr. Dolby here has collected and recorded 27 cases of possible serial murderers. So that's not 27 kills, that's 27 possible unique serial killer cases. And each of them

have quite a few kills. I mean, we have the most famous one that we need to talk a bit detailed about is, of course, Mr. Shit Hole, or Shit Hole, as his name sounds like, with 38 confirmed kills, 76 possible. But we have unidentified cases where there are

10 confirmed kills and five additional and could be many more. So it's a fascinating list. What I would like to start to talk about before we get into the details of the list is South Africa in general, because I have always held

a fascination for Africa. For a Norwegian guy living in the West, as myself, Africa has always... We know very little about it. We get very little news from Africa. Most of the news we get are tied to local wars in Somalia and Eritrea, and of course, Egypt and the Middle East.

South Africa was very much in the front news in the 90s with the end of apartheid. But after apartheid, I feel very much like South Africa has become forgotten. We never hear anything about what's going on there.

And I think that's a shame because Africa is a huge continent and there are so many people living there. And South Africa is a developed country, or at least it used to be, and shares a lot of history with the West. Controversial or not, we do share a lot of history with the British colonizing it a few hundred years ago and

apartheid and the Dutch coming in and the local Africans rising up and all that very, very colorful, very interesting history. And of course, what happened in South Africa affected the culture and opinions and how we viewed Africa here in the West as well, in a large degree. And if you turn on the news nowadays, you'll never hear a single story

from Africa. And I think that's a shame. So hopefully, this episode will shed a little bit of light on what actually occurs in South Africa regarding serial murder, which of course is my speciality. When we talk about serial killers, we tend to think that most of serial killers live in the United States of America.

As we all know, that's false. There are a lot of serial killers in America, yeah, but the most prolific ones actually live in Latin America. And I suspect that there are serial murders going on in Africa, especially South Africa, that dwarfs a lot of the serial killer cases in Europe and North America.

So let's talk about that. And let's start with a bang. Let's talk about the serial killer superstar in South Africa, Mr. Moses Satole. How do you pronounce his name? Yeah, sure. Thanks for the intro there, Thomas. That sounded very good. With this guy, his pronunciation is Moses Satole.

And yeah, he's definitely one of the, I guess, as you call it, you always say the rock stars of serial killers. He's definitely up there. He was also known as the ABC killer, the South African strangler, the Khateng killer. So he had a few different aliases and he was operating between 94 to 95, they say, which I doubt is always, I don't know if he was caught then or if he was operating then.

And as you say, 38 confirmed, 76 possible. The modus or the way that he used to lure the victims out was the promise of jobs. At this point, you're looking at a time period, as you say. I don't like diving into the whole political aspect of it. But as jobs or job creation started to decline, some of these guys would take advantage of that and they would run with it.

And that's what he did. He did that and then obviously the victims suffered. They were beaten, raped and strangled. And the thing that I want to basically hammer on during this as well is I'm focusing on specifically Pretoria within the Gateng district.

And the reason being is my theory is there's an area in Pretoria called Ettridgeville, which has produced more serial killers, I suspect, than I don't want to say any other part in South Africa, because it's not as well studied as it would be in the US or even the UK for that matter. But the part of Pretoria is called Ettridgeville in Pretoria. And that's also part of where my sister Tola operated. You know, he operated in Ettridgeville and Voxburg.

So it's quite interesting with him as well. A lot of these guys seem to come from a background where what they want, they will get. So if they want something from someone, they will take what they want. And I feel like a lot of these guys are following the same kind of processes. Right. And for our uninitiated listeners, where in South Africa is Pretoria located?

So Pretoria is one of the three capitals and it's located in a province called Gateng. Gateng is basically half the size of West Virginia in the States. And then Pretoria is roughly the size of Suffolk County in Virginia. So it's just to give you some perspective as to the size. It's not a big area at all. It's nothing that we can say it's of substantial size or anything.

But it's also where the union buildings are located and a lot of the officials stay there as well. So it's my home town, in other words, as well, Pretoria, Pretoria city, the Pretoria area in general. I didn't quite catch it. Is it in the north, south, west, east of the country?

It's pretty centralized. Well, not centralized, but it's not on the coast itself. I'll send you a map as well so you can have a look at that if you like. It's more inland than on the coast. It's about eight hours drive, seven hours drive from the coast. Right. So am I correct in thinking that Pretoria is the Dutch capital of South Africa, if you can informally call it that? Yeah. Pretoria was based on President Pretorius.

So that's what it's based on, is the name as well. It's one of the three capital cities in South Africa. Yeah. In South Africa, you have the British, which colonized the place, but you also have the Dutch, which also had large interests.

Yeah, definitely. There were different ones. So there was obviously the British came in and the Dutch were here. And then we had the French Huguenots as well. So there's threefold people who were colonized. And we had the Fuertrakers that trekked all the way to Pretoria as well. So there's a whole bunch of different nationalities at the moment. I mean, South Africa's got, I think we're up to 12 official languages, if I'm not mistaken.

So it's very difficult to determine now which, you know, who comes from where and who owns what, which is also a lot of the disputes are arising as a result of that. There's a whole bunch of, I guess, disputes

as a result of that, not knowing who comes from where because it's been around for quite a long time. And, you know, because of the trade routes, there's always this dispute as to who was first in South Africa and who was last and who does land belong to. And it's, again, political stuff that I guess, you know, if you wanted to flow over into decision-making, it can. But, yeah, for me, I'm not –

I studied law, so I kind of just stick with that. Yeah, let's stay very well clear of politics. I make that very clear in my podcast that politics is a no-go zone. It divides people and there's just no room for it. But it's just nice to put some context to where we are.

so people can get a feel for the land and understand the background a little bit. Pretoria was your hometown, so that's where you grew up. This will be perhaps a little bit on the side, but you mentioned to me that you had played around as a kid in an area where they now have found bodies. Is that right?

Yeah, I think as a kid, you know, we grew up, I was moving back and forth between the UAE and obviously South Africa. But in Pretoria, my granddad was a nature conservationist. He's retired now. But back in the day, right after he retired, we used to go into the bush and, you know, do all the things that we used to do with my cousins. And we would go and catch snakes and

scorpions and just really stuff that other people don't really like that much. But it's what we did because it's how we grew up. And one of the activities we used to do is go hunt for crabs in one of the local rivers there. It's called the Arpies River. It's translated into the Monkeys River, basically.

Yeah, unbeknownst to me that a few years later, you know, they would find a lot of bodies next to streams and rivers along that area and the Arpies River. The Arpies River is quite big as well. You can't just say that it was like it in one piece because it's got small little tributaries and areas where you can't actually access sometimes. It's just one of those things, once again, where you look at it and you think, wow, you know, as a kid, you actually hung out here and today you wouldn't dare

dare to go there. It's just too dangerous. The same with camping as well. It's the same kind of process. You're looking into rivers and dams and lakes and things. And there's unfortunately this trend towards violence when it comes to you trying to go camping or anything for that matter. Really? So what you're saying is that as a child, you could go out and play in the bush in the wild and in the

wild areas of your hometown and no one would bother you. But if you were to do that now, you would be in grave risk of being robbed or worse.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are still in denial when we talk about it. And as much as I love Pretoria and I miss my family, and as much as I think it's, you know, I'd always be home, you still have that hesitation. And that's the reason why a lot of South Africans have moved away. And I is just it's too dangerous when you wake up in the middle of the night and you hear a sound and you have to grab your flashlight and a gun to try and see what's going on.

As opposed to just sleeping through it and thinking, oh, well, everything's fine. The kids are fine. And, you know, it's time for you to wake up. But again, some people are a little bit more in denial than others. And some people just don't have the means to move away, which is unfortunate. And other people don't want to move away and all respect to them. You know, it's at the end of the day, it's everyone's choice what they want to do. If they feel like they want to stay there and they feel safe, then maybe it's just me being paranoid. Who knows?

Well, judging from the statistics you sent me, I wouldn't say that you sound paranoid. I would say you sound rational. And of course, I have heard a lot about South Africa when it comes to violence. Mostly, I've read about violence in Cape Town, the largest city, I guess, or perhaps Johannesburg is bigger.

I wish I could tell you. I haven't actually looked at that, to be honest. I know that obviously with Cape Town, you've got a lot of crime. The crimes that are rampant would be drug-related as well. You know, I'd run into the Cape Flats. And then if you look at Poulsmoor Prison and places like that, I'm sure you've seen documentaries where they go into the gang-related, you know, crimes such as, you know, methamphetamine-related crimes and drug-related. There's one...

where I think they talk to an inmate. I can't remember his name for the life of me, but it was also at Palsmoor where they talk about the different gangs and the number gangs, you know? So yes, the Cape itself, there are certain areas that can be quite dangerous and crimes are quite prevalent, but I think there are also parts of the Cape that is probably the safest to be in South Africa. So again, it's those complete opposites, you know? It's like just complete. It's like two magnets, plus and a minus, you know?

Right. One of the things I read about this is a few years ago, but again, this was a friend of mine had studied in Cape Town and he went backpacking around the area and was couch surfing. He was kind of a hippie dude. And he told me, and I don't know if this is

this is true or not but uh he told me quite quite a fascinating thing that it's so common for cars being when you stop for a red light in cape town it was so common for that car to be hijacked or robbed people just running up with a gun and saying get out of the car or give me all your money or stuff like that that there were certain individuals who had installed flamethrowers

on the side of the car and you put the guy on fire yeah i've heard that actually i've heard that as well i think we all had a friend that said that they did that at some point but yeah no that's it's not just the rumor it's actually quite quite well known though that i don't think i know i think everyone i've known has been in a situation where it's either been kind of like a snatch and grab situation or actually try to hijack your car so

There's actually a hijacked list of cars that are more vulnerable as well that's released every year to say, look, these cars are more vulnerable.

They want them more than the other cars. And here's the list of which cars to avoid buying. So when you get to that point, and then there are the rumors of they steal certain cars to drive them over the border to sell them there or to strip them for parts. It's quite interesting to see and to find that you now have to purchase your car in terms of which won't be stolen or which will be stolen, which would be the least likely to be stolen.

So those are the things that I don't tell you. But yes, hijackings and snatching grabs are quite prevalent in certain areas. Well, in most of South Africa now in any way, but obviously more in certain areas than in others. The Cape for one, definitely. Johannesburg, PE, Pretoria, definitely. They're all up there, definitely. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, for a guy like me living in very safe and sound Norway, it just sounds insane that it would be...

that prevalent of a case. And the lists you mentioned with, these are the cars that you should buy if you don't want to be hijacked. That's insane. I've also read that personal security is something you can purchase. And it's quite popular with ads and billboards and stuff. You can rent personal bodyguards and stuff like that. Is that still a thing? Yeah.

Well, look, if the bodyguards thing was a thing, I wish I had the money to be honest. But yeah, look, security is probably one of the most popular, I guess, parts of, I don't know how to say it, industries in South Africa, I guess would be the way to go. It would be a multi-million, billion-rand industry in South Africa. And a lot of people...

understand that. But at the end of the day, a lot of these companies such I'm not going to give names away, but a lot of companies are actually suspected in being a part of these crimes as well. So it's been proven as well. So that's the problem is trying to find out who's trustworthy and who's not. You know, when someone happens to be off duty, break-ins might occur. And how do these guys know that the guy who's supposed to be on duty is off duty?

So small little things like that to take into account as a corruption of some of the companies itself. So you're looking at people to protect you and a lot of the time they don't. So what do you do yourself now? Do you get a gun? Do you believe in gun control? Do you believe in anything else? Do you believe in trying to keep your family safe, but then possibly going to jail for doing so? And then looking into things like

the firearms control act and trying to find out what sort of gun you can you can keep legally and what the steps would be and then also understanding that they are making a little bit more difficult as time progresses as well to try and keep everyone from keeping guns but then at the end of the day the criminals don't give a damn about that they steal a lot of the guns from the police um so you know the criminals don't care about the laws you know now that's what's making criminals yes so

As you understand, my dear listeners, South Africa is a very exciting country with, unfortunately, several places in South Africa is quite rife with serious crime. And the most serious of crimes is, of course, serial murder. So let's get back to the list that you sent me. I'd like to go through it.

So instead of like a typical serial killer expo, say, I thought we could just go through and just get a picture of, and remember, listener, this is from one area. This is Pretoria. So, so, I mean, in the whole of South Africa, there's, there's far, far more. And, and this is also a lot of these crimes. They're quite recent. So, so yeah, keep that in mind. So number one,

is Elias and I'm not even going to try to pronounce his last name sita would see that's that's x i t a v h u d z i his nickname was punga man which is

more easy to pronounce. And this is one of the older cases in the 1950s. He killed 16 men and women. So can you tell us a little bit about him?

Panga Man is basically Panga as Afrikaans for machete. So there's not much that is known about, well, I mean, there's a few things written about him and normal documentary parts of it, obviously, but basically murdered these individuals by machete. So he was also, again, from that, as we say, or as you said before,

Pretoria, yes. Small, as I said before, as it is roughly the sound of Suffolk County and Virginia. But even worse than that is the area within Pretoria. He's again then operating in Attridgeville. So

That is the part that gets to me every single time is these guys on the list. They all hail from that one little area in Pretoria, which bothers me quite, quite a bit. So if you look at Pretoria, you'll see that Pretoria central, there are different areas in Pretoria. This guy operated and the Western Western part of it with the West from Pretoria central in that little area. And, uh,

If you're looking at the other guys as well, which you'll get to, you'll notice the same kind of trend is that it seems that for all intents and purposes, I think what he was doing, Elias, is he was operating, if it is him, murdering a lot of white people, if I remember, if I recall correctly. So he was one of those apartheid fighters. It might be him

but it might also be the guy next on the list. I can't remember which one of the two it was. It might actually be the next guy up, but I doubt it because I see his victimology is a little bit different as well. So my belief is strong that Elias was responsible for a lot of the murders on white folks.

Yes, you are quite correct in your assumptions. I'm reading on Wikipedia here and Elias Siterhudzi, he murdered 16 men and women in Atrichville in the 1950s and he targeted only whites. So he was a black guy and he went into the strictly segregated community of whites and killed 16 people with a machete.

So he mutilated his victims as well. Yeah, you know, if you think about a machete kill as well, you know, it's nothing that's clean. It would be something that's done out of anger as well. It's not something that's done quick and quietly and under the radar. You know, if you're doing strangulation, you can kind of

detail you can keep someone quiet to some extent whereas if it's a machete kill what do you do do you do you stalk someone while they're sleeping do you do it while they're awake it's something that's a brutal brutal death it's a very brutal death indeed a machete for my listeners who for some reason might not know what it is it's a very large knife it's almost like a sword but it's quite broad

It's a broad blade, it's a very simple weapon, which is why it is often used in conflicts all across Africa. The most famous use of machete for us Westerners is of course Rwanda in 1994, in the genocide there, where two million people were butchered with machetes.

dolby here correctly told you it is a brutal and also very painful way to die unless you're very lucky i mean if you get struck i guess very hard on top of your head with a machete your brain will will splatter out and you'll probably die instantaneously but if most of the time machete kills they are

against your arms, your torso, your throat, your face. It's quite painful and often the victims bleed out from blood loss. It's extremely painful and also it would have been very loud as Dolby also correctly pointed out. I mean the victim would scream when you're hit. So yeah he was...

He was tried and convicted of 16 murders. He was sentenced to death and he was hanged on the 14th of November in 1960. So that's the first one. One of the upsides, right, is before the death penalty was abolished, it was quite...

readily available back in the day, and they would apply it quite readily as well. So I guess that's the upside of that. Obviously, losing 16 people to one person is always a downside. Yeah, he was executed. And South Africa, you guys had the death penalty for quite a long time, I think.

Yeah, it was abolished. I can't remember the year now, but the matter was the state versus Makwanyane. And then they abolished it after deciding it was inhumane. All right. So do you know if it was the 80s or 90s? I think it was the 90s. Right, right. So moving on, the next on the list is Johannes Masciani.

Again, there will be names on this list that I am uncertain if I pronounce correctly. The last name is M-A-S-H-I-N-A-N-E. Marciane. Beast of Attridgeville. Operated 1977 to 1982 up until 1989. Killed his girlfriend and 12 boys.

Yeah, quite an interesting fellow, I find. He was one of those, I think, if I recall correctly, he killed his girlfriend first, and then with the boys, it was either with strangulation or stoning. So I'm guessing it was, again, I'm not a criminologist or a psychiatrist or psychologist or anything to that extent. But from the trends in the past, these guys usually experience sexual gratification in terms of the violence that they, you know, apply.

So the strangulation, the stoning, I'm guessing, especially the strangulation, because it's up close and personal, it's something that he would probably have received that. And what happened with him, as you can see, his nickname is the Beast of Ettridgeville. So again, the place Ettridgeville comes into play, and that's where he operated once again. And

I see that he committed suicide in 1989 because he was running away from the police, if I recall correctly, and he ran in front of a bus by accident or under a bus while being chased. So, yeah, doing the typical serial killer psychopathic thing and taking control and deciding that this is how it's going to go and no one else is going to decide what happens to me, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, it's quite limited amount of information about him online that you

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Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash serialkiller today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash serialkiller. You are correct. He was running from the police and threw himself in front of a bus.

which promptly ran him over and thus killed him. And he raped his victims. Young boys. Doesn't say the age of the boys.

Yeah, no, it doesn't. I tried to find that as well. Unfortunately, as you'll come to know with the rest of this as well, is the information for the known serial killers is there. But as we move along with the unknown guys, a lot of the articles have been removed for some reason. I would read them years ago and then try to find the same article and it would be non-existent.

So I don't know if back in the day they just didn't focus. Obviously, I mean, we're looking at the dates here. It's 1977 to 82. If you're looking at criminal profiling back then in the States, even it was something that was quite limited. So the profile saying that this is a serial killer must have only come much later from the South African side, you know? So I guess the information that they have is quite limited as well. Yeah.

When it comes to serial murder and publicity and the information available to the public,

A lot of authoritarian states put a lid on everything regarding serial murder. The Soviet Union is a prime example, which denied that serial murder occurred in the Soviet Union all the way up until Citizen X was found out thanks to one very diligent police officer.

I will do a separate episode on him. But that was the official policy that serial murder was a Western decadent phenomenon that did not occur in the Soviet Union. And I can readily imagine the authorities in South Africa actively obfuscating and limiting information regarding South African serial killers. Because

They are always fascinating to most people. They always draw a lot of attention, and it's always very negative, and it puts the state in a bad light. So when you say that you read articles a while ago, and now those articles are gone, that does not surprise me. That is very typical when it comes to

the way authorities operate, especially in states where the term free press is not exactly free. And I mean, South Africa in the 70s and 80s, apartheid, there was no free speech. Everything was strictly controlled. It's probably better today, but from what I'm reading, it's far from good.

Yeah, you're right. I think the problem is as well is, I don't know if it is better to, that's the part that bothers me as these other murders that I read about were happening. I think it was 2005, 2006. It might've been even 2008. I can't remember for the life of me once again, but these are the articles that I read and they just seem to have just evaporated into nothing. But it's just strange.

Yeah, and it's very unfortunate. And when it goes on in a large scale, when it's actively repressed by the authorities, we're not saying that that is definitely happening, but it might be. But when that sort of thing happens, then serial killers will have even more leverage and freedom to pursue their deviant desires without being caught, because the public will not cause a stir

as they would if it was in the newspapers every day. Then people would rise up and demand the authorities take action. But if the newspapers aren't talking about it, then people simply don't know and they don't have to spend resources pursuing these kids.

Anyway, Mr. Marciani, he murdered his girlfriend and raped and sodomized at least 12 young boys. He strangled them, but he also stoned them, which to me sounds very strange. I mean, it's very limited what's available online. I mean, stoning traditionally is you bury someone up to their waist.

arms at their sides so they can't shield themselves or dig out. And from a certain distance away, you throw stones at them until they die. It's one of the most painful ways you can die. It takes a long time and it's extremely brutal and the victim... It's quite sadistic, I think. Very, very sadistic. It's very sadistic and so...

It makes me question whether he actually stoned them like that or if he used a stone to bash their skull in, which, I mean, sounds more... Yeah, I was thinking the same because obviously those are very...

very different methods of murder. You got strangulation on the one side, which is close and personal in your personal space and invading it and feeling the life drain out of someone which is quite close, as I say, whereas with stoning, as you describe it in the traditional sense, is from a bit of a distance. So I think stoning in this would probably involve something that deviates from the traditional sense of stoning, perhaps. Yeah, I suspect.

And again, I'm not an expert in the case in any way, but I suspect that it's a matter of maybe things lost in translation, that he used a stone to kill his victims by probably bashing their heads in. But I kind of doubt that he took the time and effort to rape his victims, young boys, and then bury them and line them up and throw stones at them.

Sounds very odd, especially when a lot of his other victims were strangled, which is, as you say, very up close and personal. Sounds strange. But anyway, he used a stone to kill them. And no matter the distance, very, very brutal, very, very painful. And especially considering that he raped these young boys. And if they were children, as I suspect they were,

That's also extremely painful and would probably cause tearing, rupturing, massive blood loss. Yeah, horrible. And yeah, he killed himself, which is probably a fate better than what he deserved. But yeah, an apt nickname, the Beast of Attridgeville. Yeah, that's it.

And then we have Moses, which we have talked about. And then we have another one with a difficult name, Selo Abram Maponya. Yeah, no, the reason, Thomas, sorry to interrupt, the reason I put Selo Abram Maponya on here is because I find his behavior, because they say that it's still in unconfirmed deaths, I do still find his behavior one of those

Where if you look at, for instance, Joseph D'Angelo, the Golden State Killer, and you look at that progressive behavior where there's a lot of

It progresses from being a peeping Tom to snatching things and breaking in and robberies, and then it progresses to rape, and then it goes to murder. I find it quite confronting that we have someone that was operating from 2014 to 2019, and he was convicted of 41 rapes, 40 counts of robbery with aggravating circumstances, where

Which, it's just very reminiscent of the behavior of Joseph DeAngelo once again, you know, is that just progressively becoming worse and worse. So I put him down there because I think, you know, at the end of the day, you can't say that he won't be suspected of murders or anything like that. I think he would probably be, but they don't have the evidence at this point because of, I don't know what reasons, maybe a lack of support or something like that. Exactly. Exactly.

Well, it's one of those things I'm very happy you put him on the list because then we can discuss. As you say, serial killers, they progress. That's very typical. You don't start out, well, some do, but most...

Do not start out going and killing and then waiting a bit and then killing again and then waiting a bit and then killing again. That's not the way it progresses. They start out by being peeping toms or torturing and killing small animals as a kid, maybe being bullies. They start out by being criminals, maybe shoplifting, simple robbery.

Then perhaps they progress to violent assault. They escalate to rape, maybe home invasions. Golden State Killer, he was very fond of home invasions where he entered the homes of his victims and snuck up on them while they were sleeping and demanded they perform sexual favors for him.

And then sometimes he let them live, and other times he killed them. Again, I'm digressing, but the Golden State Killer, Joseph D'Angelo, he also tortured and terrorized his victims afterwards by calling them and leaving ominous messages and never letting them have a peace of mind.

But this Maponya individual, which operated in 2014 to 2019, he is luckily arrested, convicted to 988 years imprisonment. That's quite a long time. I guess you have actual life in prison in South Africa. You don't have the way we do in Norway, where it's a maximum amount and then you're let go.

Yeah, look, I think the problem as well, once again, I sound like I'm bitching about it because, and I don't want to sound like that, but, you know, there's unfortunately when we're talking about the topic of, you know, people being convicted of these crimes or any other crimes and then being sentenced or detained or whatever to prison, there's a lot of the time

these guys get off because the prison's overcrowded. So I'm not saying that he would be because obviously his crimes are quite severe, but the scale indicates that a lot of the people who are sentenced to prison do get released much earlier. And it's not quite what we expect it to be, but it is. So

He would probably die in prison, definitely. But I see also with Moses Sotoli, he got sentenced to 2,410 years in Victoria CMAX. So hopefully, you know, technology doesn't catch up and they can be frozen.

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that these men do not see the light of day, which is probably a good thing because they have inflicted untold amounts of suffering on other people. And he's a very interesting case because, as you say, convicted of 41 rapes and 40 counts of robbery with aggravating circumstances. So that's violent robbery.

and 41 reps you see i'm not saying that he he definitely murdered someone but as we've seen the trend in the past before these guys do progress you know it's just a matter of it's been seen time after time i mean even if you look at ted bundy which he did an excellent expose on by the way i followed that to the t and then i'm not even going to mention the others i'll listen to all of them non-stop but

Even if you look at Ted Bundy, I mean, he also broke in, if I'm not mistaken. He stole some items from various houses. And it's quite common amongst serial killers to do that, to break in and

steal items and then to progress to the next thing as you said before peeping toms and stuff so i'm not saying that he did definitely but i'm putting him on the list because i think he's a serial offender and he should be looked a little bit closer and if we had the technology that's how the states had into looking into uh familial dna and ancestry and ancestral dna i can't remember how to pronounce it but in the same cases with joe d'angelo you might be able to

find more details about it and to the other crimes, which the police in all fairness may be investigating. Again, I'm not saying that they aren't, but I'm just putting them on the list just because I think he would be on there definitely. Well, yeah, I think you did a good job there. And especially considering that further down the list, we have several unknowns in the same area. Again, Ertzigville and, you know, I mean, this guy's also Ertzigville once again. Yeah.

So he might be behind those. We don't know. And for someone to do that many rapes and that many robberies, that smacks of a serial murderer, at least in the making, if not, in fact, de facto. So, yeah, it's interesting. And moving on, we have Richard Jubulani Nia Auzza.

Jesus, that's a difficult thing. Yeah, look, these guys follow pretty much the same kind of trend. I see he operated a little bit earlier, so he was from the 2002 to 2006. Also, Victor

Victoria area, Olivenide Bosch serial killers, what they call them, which is interesting since Silla Abramaponya also operated in Olivenide Bosch. So the guy you talked about before, he was in Atchitchville, Namaladi, Olivenide Bosch, as well as Silverton, which is all Pretoria as well. But it's just interesting to see that there's a bit of a time difference between them, but they both operated in the same or similar area. And then

Obviously, the one we don't have any confirmed murders, but just saying again, that general theme, general area, you know, it's interesting to me again. And you'll see that his sentence says that he got 16 life terms and 16 murder charges and a further 140 years imprisonment on charges of rape, robbery and attempted murder.

So that just reiterates what I said before. You know, you've got a robbery, you've got rape, you've got all those that is in the making of a serial killer, as you elegantly put it, you know, is these guys do do other things other than serial killing. Yeah, that's very important to remember. But the vast majority of serial killers are not like Ted Bundy.

Ted Bundy was not a petty criminal. As far as we know, he did not engage in robberies and theft and fraud and that sort of thing. He sticked to sexual crimes. He was a peeping Tom, started out like that, and then he went on to rape and battery and eventually murder because that was his fantasy.

That was his hidden life that he kept strictly separated from his normal life, which was as an upstanding citizen.

but uh ted bundy was an anomaly anomaly yeah he was normally yeah yeah he's not a typical serial killer people think that ted bundy was like the uh the archetype of a serial killer he was not he was an anomaly the vast majority of serial murderers are psychopaths

do not care about the law. They don't care about rules of society. If they want something, as you said, they just take it. And if that means they want sex, well, then they go out and rape. If they see something material that they would like, they go and steal it. If they find opportunity for fraud, which is easier than doing a regular 8-to-4 job, they go and do fraud.

And of course, if they feel a need to kill, they kill. So it's the psychopathy personality traits that kick in. And this is obviously the case of Mr. Niausa here, who did robbery, rape, and of course, murder.

16 women and he raped and killed them as far as i can tell again and limited information available online which is very unfortunate uh you know we're talking about 2002 to 2006 so the excuse of saying there's there's uh there's just nothing about him it's just bullshit my my opinion because now we're looking at the 2000s it's it's not it's not a matter of

having to be censored or anything. They should be made public. And I know it's horrible to say that, but then at the end of the day, you're looking at details that could help solve future crimes or that public could be made aware of to look out for. So I found an article regarding Yowza. There was not many, but I found one and it's from his court case.

So they found his DNA inside four of his victims. There was also cell phone evidence. Niausa pointed out seven of the murder scenes to police. And the authorities, they linked and concluded that he was the murderer of all the cases he was charged with. And he killed them using a screwdriver. Stabbed them with a screwdriver, which is...

I mean, of all the methods, you know, it's just again, that's a new method.

And I find that a lot of the guys we're talking about are very disorganized killers as well. They'll use whatever is at their disposal. You'll see with the next guy, for instance, which I'm not going to get ahead of myself, but it's the same kind of situation. The same was true with Moses Atola, you know. He would use stockings and underwear of the victims and he would use whatever was at hand. It's the same. It's not as organized as some serial killers, which...

If we look at the States, for instance, with Dennis Rader, he was quite organized. He would plan ahead and he would watch the victims and he would have a list of who he was going to look into. Whereas these guys are more opportunistic. They use the surrounding areas to, I guess, lure the victims into a false sense of security and

gain their trust. And the same is true with this guy. It's just interesting. Yes, indeed. And I mean, BTK, one of the superstars, he called it his projects. So he made folders and he planned it ahead, well ahead of time. And he knew all the ins and outs, just like, I mean, in the movies. He was like a talking, walking horror movie, just in real life. Yeah.

Yeah, he was. He's a typical guy you don't suspect at all, you know. You can, in some ways, you can categorize serial killers very broadly into two camps. You have the organized, meticulous serial killers, and then you have the opportunistic serial killers. The organized ones are the ones that are the rarest, but they are also the scariest because they hide behind a persona of normalcy

and live perfectly normal lives. They're not criminals in their day-to-day lives. Often they have families, but then as a hobby, they go out and kill and torture and they view it as their own special projects. But this guy, moving back to Niazu, Niausa, he said, he told police, and I quote,

Women did not deserve to live because a woman had given him AIDS. So talk about painting in broad strokes. One woman gave him AIDS, so all women needed to die. Yeah, you know, it's just scum, to be honest. It's just a shitty reason, first of all. And the reason you got AIDS is not because of the woman, it's because of yourself. So I think that reasoning behind it is just, again,

pointing at the psychopathy of some of the guys trying to find a reasoning behind why you do what you do. Yes. And I mean, I'm reading about, there's a bit more detail here. And one woman, she survived Niaz's killing spree and she was repeatedly stabbed with a screwdriver, then strangled. She passed out and then Niaz, he left her for dead.

She was pregnant at the time, so she lost her unborn baby. She partially lost her sight and she lost the use of her one hand. And to top it off, she was also, it doesn't say here, but she was probably infected with AIDS. So talk about ruining someone's life. I mean, it's just awful.

As the prosecutor said, and I think he said it more eloquently than I, you are an evil, perverted social murderer who poses, no, you are an evil, perverted serial murderer who poses an extreme danger to society in general and women in particular. End quote. Yeah, and you know, coming from a legal standpoint, it's difficult for me being

having to be impartial with what you say or what you think, because at the end of the day, you are all human. But your first reaction is, what a piece of shit. And it's unfortunately the way that we think as people, as I can one person do that to another person, just carry on with life as if nothing's wrong. But yeah, that's very well put. Very, very well put. And again, we come back to

What is focused on? What is it that the media pays attention to when it comes to these serial killers? It's not the victims, it's the serial killer. And I think that's unfortunate because luckily in this case,

One woman was in fact, we were told of the fate of one of the unfortunate women who survived his attack, but there are so many more. Sixteen lost their lives. For all we know, he probably attacked far more that hasn't stepped forward.

And I mean, these are the people we should remember because they are... Where did they come from? What are their names? What did they do? Are they... Ethnicity. I mean, this is stuff and I'm not asking ethnicity because of the interest. It's because you want to see that we targeted and the demographs behind it and stats. Who were these people? That's just saying 16 people, 16 murdered and maybe it's to protect them. I don't know.

the identities or but i agree with you uh you never hear much from the victims it's always these guys that turn out to be the kings and it's just not not quite right and a lot of them enjoy it which is unfortunate they like the attention so of course again i i'm probably going to be called a hypocrite because i dedicate my show to serial killers but um

But I do tend to try to highlight the victims as well. Try as best as I can to bring forth the story of those that were killed or attacked by these animals. You do very well, Thomas. I just wanted to interrupt you again. That's the one thing that I find you do really well. And I've heard people compliment you on that as well. And I have to say, I think I've said it to you before, is you do, you take the time

And you actually look at what the victims go through. So, yeah, kudos to you, honestly. Thank you. Very nice of you to say. So number six on the list here is Andreas MacGay, operated 2012 to 2013, killed at least three women. You have written here, pin, rape, strangle with own underwear. Oh, yeah, he pinned them down. Right, I see. I see. Yes, yes, yes.

And this too was Pretoria, but in Ondersdeport.

Yeah, so Honest to Poet is actually not far from where I used to live. None of these places are, but Honest to Poet, there's a big veterinary clinic there as well, which is one of the best in the world. It used to be, I don't know if it is anymore. But Honest to Poet is one of those places as well where it's become much more dangerous than it used to be. And he seems to have operated in that area as well. A lot of

A lot of criminal behavior. And once again, you can see that it's that behavior where it's disorganized and it's just a matter of just using whatever's at your disposal. So in this case, it'd be an underwear. Just looking for someone to rape and murder. And yeah. Opportunistic, I think, is the word I was looking for. Very opportunistic. And people like him are actually the majority of serial killers.

People just out in the world and they have desires that they want filled and they just lash out randomly. That's until they either kill themselves, die from natural causes or are caught by authorities. Then we have a very interesting case here. And again, when it comes to South Africa, I mean, race is the elephant in the room due to the history of the place.

And so far on the list, I think most of these people have been black Africans. But here we have Gert van Rooyen. Judging from his name, I suspect he was of Dutch origins. Yeah, so he was an Afrikaans guy, Gert van Rooyen. And basically with him, you actually have to read the story there, Thomas. I think it's quite an interesting story.

to say the least because he was suspected of so many more girls that he murdered and he was a pedophile there's a whole bunch of stuff that was written about him recently every every now and then there'll be an outcry to say let's try and see if we can pin more stuff on him and you know find out a little bit more but what you can do if you want is you can actually go have a read through there's quite a bit of information regarding him but there's always some there's also some mysticism

As in he's become sort of a legend in his own right. And in South Africa, one of those people that is one of the South African rock stars, as you say, when it comes to serial killings and being what he is.

So I would definitely recommend, you know, if you have some spare time and free time delving into everything he's done and all of the news articles and everyone and his partner that he was doing these things with, if I recall correctly, it could take, you could jump into a rabbit hole and you would never come out because it's one of those cases where you could just lose yourself in what you're reading. And it's very, very interesting. But at the same time, if I had to go down that rabbit hole, I probably wouldn't come back out until

I can read the Wikipedia summary for our dear listeners' benefit. Van Rooyen and his female accomplice, Joy Harhoff, are believed to be responsible for the abduction, sexual rape, and murder of several missing girls aged between 9 and 16 years old across eastern South Africa. In early 1990,

When faced with arrest after the escape of their latest kidnap victim, Van Rooyen killed Harhoff before committing suicide. Despite later evidence against them, the two were never formally convicted due to their deaths and the bodies of their alleged victims were never found.

So it's a gruesome case and it's a killer duo apparently. And I've put it on my topic list. Several of the names that we go through today will be covered here exclusively on the Serial Killer podcast. Hopefully I can make a whole episode. It's the most difficult thing when doing these exposés is, of course, the research because...

I don't make this shit up. I have to actually base it on... No, you do a lot of research and your stuff. I was actually saying to someone today as well, I'm quite... I've been impressed since the start. I mean, when you delve into explanations of things, I think the thing that I probably remember the most, the clearest, is your explanation of... And this is going to sound very wrong, but how the electric chair...

And Ted Bundy's case was administered and the steps leading up to that. And I can, you paint a picture where you can actually see it in your head as well. So, and a lot of us don't think about that or the processes that go into strangulation or what the victims feel when they go through it and how gruesome it actually is when you actually do the research around it.

So, yeah, no, you do delve into a lot of research when you do your cases. With Hart von Royen, I think he would make a very, very interesting, as I said, rabbit hole to jump into and to dive into and to see if you can find out a bit more. There's a lot of stuff about him, I think.

Yes, it's a lot of links here. So yes, I will probably be able to do a full expose on him. So that's good. I mean, child killers, they are the worst of the worst. And people need to know that evil like this exists so we can fight it. One thing that struck me when I read about Hart von Rojen here is that immediately there's a lot more info when I Google him.

There's a lot more links and there are a lot more texts on his Wikipedia page than the other guys that we've talked about so far. And I suspect, again, this is controversial, but he was white. The other guys were black. It strikes me as maybe that's played into it. That as soon as there's a white guy in South Africa being a serial killer, more media exposure than...

these black guys that it's impossible to find more than their name and how many they killed. But yes, you know, we have the list here. We are at number seven. There are 27 cases on the list. So you know what, Mr. Dolby? I hadn't planned on doing this, but this has been such an interesting talk. And I think we have material for a part two.

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And so it is that we come to the end of the saga of part one of this conversation regarding serial murder in South Africa. Next episode will include the second and final part of this dialogue. So, as they say in the land of radio, stay tuned. Finally, I wish to thank you, dear listener, for listening.

If you like this podcast, you can support it by donating on patreon.com slash theserialkillarpodcast, by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, facebook.com slash theskpodcast, or by posting on the subreddit theskpodcast. Thank you. Good night and good luck.