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Welcome to the Serial Killer Podcast. The podcast dedicated to serial killers, who they were, what they did and
Episode 169 I am your Norwegian host, Thomas Roseland Weyberg Thun. Tonight, I bring to you Part 7 in The Green River Killer Saga. Last episode ended with me transcribing the only known communication from The Green River Killer to the media, as well as the beginning of what was two detectives at the time seemed like another avalanche of death.
This series is the largest endeavor this podcast has embarked upon since I started back in August of 2016. The story of Gary Leon Ridgeway is a challenging story, not just because so many books, films, and documentaries has already been made about him, but because there simply are so many victims, and I struggle with how to properly respect their memory
Much ado has been made in the media and in previous episodes about how most of the killer's victims were prostitutes. I wonder if the same emphasis had been made on the victim's profession if they had all been accountants. Well, to be honest, I actually do think much had been made out of such a scenario. A serial killer killing dozens of female accountants had truly been quite unique.
Anyway, I hope my dear listeners do not find my coverage of Ridgway's victims to be exploitative. Yes, most made their living selling sexual favors. So what? It's a dog-eat-dog world, and we all have to do what we can to get by. A more interesting aspect of the case is why Ridgway hated prostitutes so much, and if that really was the case at all.
Perhaps he simply hated women, and prostitutes were easy targets. Then again, perhaps he didn't hate anyone. Maybe he just really, really, really enjoyed murdering people as he was having sex with them. In this latest episode, and no, it won't be the last in the series, we will be making a reunion with an old adversary who has some unique insights into just those questions. Enjoy.
As always, I want to publicly thank my elite TSK Producers Club. Their names are:
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And of course, if you wish to donate $15 a month, that's only $7.50 per episode, you are more than welcome to join the ranks of the TSK Producers Club too. So don't miss out and join now. Imagine, if you will, dear listener, a handsome man. He has a body of a man who regularly does physical exercise, although it is clear that lately he has let himself go a little bit.
He has a very intense stare, which is complemented by his clear blue eyes. A unibrow is starting to show, and he has about a week's worth of beard stubble. The hair on his head is slightly curly and light brown in color. Perhaps he grins at you as you pass by his cell. Perhaps he is simply grinning to himself, remembering a pleasant memory. In any case, it is a very winning smile.
The kind of smile a politician would come a long way with. The man had, in fact, been involved in politics a few years earlier. Yes, dear listener, you are not mistaken. It is good old Ted you are looking at. Ted Bundy. Serial killer superstar extraordinaire. And he has an important role to play in the saga of the Green River Killer. It is nearing Christmas in 1984.
Your humble host turns four years old in less than a month. Ted is sitting in his cell in Florida, reading the newspaper. He is reading about the ongoing serial killer case near his old hunting grounds around Seattle. As with so many bona fide narcissistic psychopaths, Ted's mouth waters at the idea of again being center stage, getting attention, having some power.
so he asks the guard if he can get some paper to write a letter-a letter to his old nemesis keppel ted wrote that he had some information that he thought could prove useful in apprehending the green river killer or killers but his offer of assistance was conditional
He wanted assurance that his correspondence and subsequent communications would be kept confidential. He did not want anyone outside the task force, especially members of the news media, to become aware of his offer. Even though Keppel felt Ted's offer was sincere and honest, he was wary because Ted Bundy always seemed to have a hidden agenda. At the time of writing to Keppel,
Ted still had not confessed to his crimes. He loved to allude to his crimes, never quite going as far as saying straight out that he was the killer. Keppel, although he loathed Bundy, thought that visiting him might kill two birds with one stone. It might be that Ted Bundy could have some unique insights to share that would help catch the Green River Killer, but more importantly—
Ted might end up clearing up unsolved details about his own murders. Ted initially wrote two letters to Keppel before Keppel replied. Keppel's reply letter read as follows, and I quote, Dear Ted, This is to acknowledge receipt of your letter to the Green River Task Force dated October 1st, 1984.
Your request that any communications we have may be kept in strictest confidence is absolutely honored. I, too, am concerned that any comments made by you could be detrimental to the Green River investigation. I'm interested in what information you have that could prove useful in apprehending the person or persons responsible for the Green River murders.
In order to assess the immediacy of your assistance, could you provide just some facts about the nature of your help? I could tentatively visit Florida in the middle of November, in conjunction with other investigative duties. I have made inquiry to your local FBI to arrange a possible visit. You may hear from them.
The sensitivity of this matter was emphasized. I respect your statement of playing no game, and, frankly, playing games with you is presumptuous on my part and a waste of my time. I am interested in what is useful in resolving the Green River killings, and what your contribution is. We will communicate at your request only about the Green River murders, and, quote-unquote, nothing else. End quote.
And so it was that Keppel and Reichardt flew to Florida to see Ted. Dear listeners, what follows in this episode is some rather lengthy quotes from Ted Bundy. These quotes are taken from the very fantastic book The River Man by Keppel himself. I recommend everyone to go purchase and read it. On with the show.
The city of Stark, Florida, was the home of the Florida State Penitentiary, kind of a serial killer central, where some of the South's most notorious murderers, or especially serial murderers, were waiting on death row to have a seat in Florida's equally infamous electric chair, nicknamed Old Sparky.
Dave Reichert and Keppel had the privilege of visiting the town and the prison to make face-to-face contact with Ted Bundy. They had booked a room at the Conoline Lodge, which was about two steps lower than a Motel 6, and was their home for two days. They did not want their presence to become general knowledge, so they registered under Dave Reichert's name. The lower their profile, the better.
If anyone caught wind that they were interviewing Bundy, members of the news media would have flocked to the prison like ants on a bird's carcass. And that was the last thing they wanted. But Dave Reichert was an iron-punting physical fitness fanatic whose bodybuilder's physique was something to envy. He had carted his dumbbell weights, boombox and aerobic tapes all the way from Seattle to Stark.
While they waited through the hours early in the day before seeing Ted Bundy, an upbeat Rikert set up his weights on the motel's lawn to work out in the Florida sunshine, with his well-developed body rocking on the lawn to an aerobic tape that boomed through the oversized speakers and his weightlifting technique that made him look more like a machine than man,
Reichardt captivated the attention of the housekeepers, who were peeking out of windows or standing outside instead of cleaning rooms. Word spread fast among the motel employees about the bodybuilder who'd just checked in. It did not take them long to get his name from the front desk and show him their appreciation for the show he'd put on that day.
When they left to have dinner, and returned later that afternoon, Keppel noticed that the front marquee brightly displayed, Welcome, Dave Reichert. So much for incognito. Keppel promptly asked Dave Reichert to request that the greeting be removed. That day, the duo made their first visit to the prison.
As they pulled up, the lime-green state penitentiary was an impressive sight, rising austerely and dramatically above the surrounding landscape. The guard tower stood next to the main gate, and the fence that bordered the penitentiary and grounds was constructed of three separate coils of razor-sharp, three-meter-high concertina wire. The grasp between the wire rolls was neatly manicured.
The sally-port entry to the prison, like a hatchway on a naval vessel guarded by sentries, blocked their entry. After undergoing a search of their possessions, the duo were taken to Assistant Warden Pete Turner's office. He had approved the visit before they arrived. With the savvy of a man who had dealt with hardened cars, he warned of Bundy's constant game-playing. He said in no uncertain terms, and I quote,
Try not to get used by him. He always has an agenda. End quote. Turner led them to a small, drab, cream-colored interview room. A creaky wooden table and three metal chairs filled the room, and one wall had a barred window. That was a constant reminder of restricted freedom. Ted, adorned in interwoven chains around his waist, wrists, and arms, was escorted by a burly prison guard.
His figure was hunched, as he said in a timid voice the words he had spoken with so much more gravitas to unsuspecting victims so many times back in the days of freedom. "'Hello, I'm Ted.' His reach for Keppel's hand was slow, weighted as it was by the chains of death row. The touch of his hand was sticky wet.'
Keppel wondered if the notorious serial killer was actually nervous. Apologetic about his appearance, Ted expressed reservations about the interview, claiming that he was presumptuous to think he could be of assistance. Ted was setting the hook convincingly, in a way that only he could. He had a captive audience, and everyone in the room knew it.
His phony, self-effacing attitude and feigned weakness were part of a preconceived act, a method to sucker them in. Yes, he was partly debilitated, caged together with other murderers on death row, but he was also acting out a weakened state of health as a crutch, just like the arm-in-a-sling ruse he had used so cleverly in the past.
Bundy was working on Bob and Dave's sympathy, getting them to drop their guard in order to accept his view of reality. That was how he had lured his victims years earlier. That was going to be his approach to them in the interim.
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But it's good to have some things that are non-negotiable. For some, that could be a night out with the boys, chugging beers and having a laugh. For others, it might be an eating night. For me, one non-negotiable activity is researching psychopathic serial killers and making this podcast. Even when we know what makes us happy, it's often near impossible to make time for it.
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Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash serialkiller today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash serialkiller. From Keppel's point of view, they started with something simple. How the killer approached his victims.
Serial killers have been known to approach their victims at the most opportune moment, when there was the least possibility of detection. People who became victims of serial killers were involved in activities that were either high or low risk. Some victims were looking for dates in a bar, were hitching rides from strangers, or hooking in bars or along the strips of red-light districts. All high-risk activities.
Those activities made the women easily accessible, not requiring the sophisticated approach of a predatory and seasoned killer. However, other murder victims were doing things that did not take them out of the sphere of normal everyday life. They were sleeping in their beds, working at convenience stores, shopping at a mall, or just walking home.
Those low-risk activities were common for most people and required the killer to use premeditated abduction routines in order to attack his victims. In either case, the killer chose victims who were vulnerable and easy to control. Frequently, victims were small-framed males and females, the elderly or children.
Ted Bundy believed that the River Man, which is what Ted called the Green River Killer, picked the ideal victim class, the car date prostitute. These prostitutes had a vested interest in getting into a car quickly and surreptitiously with any non-threatening person who appeared to have the necessary cash.
But Ted was very cautious about classifying all the riverman's victims as prostitutes. He wanted confirmation that all of the Green River victims were prostitutes at the time they disappeared. Detective Reichert told Ted they were certain all the victims were indeed prostitutes. Whereas on one hand, Ted was intrigued with the riverman and his apparent elusiveness,
Ted also criticized the killer's lack of a calculating and more distinguished approach to his victims. Dave Reichert and Keppel knew, and Ted knew, that the riverman's repertoire of victim lures was limited. His victims were in high-risk environments and were therefore low-risk victims who needed to go with strangers in order to make money.
Technically, a client could quote-unquote abduct a prostitute for a couple of hours for the right amount of money. Anyone, even Ted, could abduct prostitutes. But Ted believed that the riverman did not rise to his own level of sophistication, because the riverman
did not venture out into the victim communities where a killer had to use more elaborate techniques to lure the victims away from their safety zones. To serial killers, this was all part of the cunning and bravado. Ted perceived himself to be the master, and, therefore, able to critique others. Ted told Bob and Dave the following, and this is a rather long quote.
If the riverman had a method that's more generalized to pick up anybody he selects, if he's just selecting prostitutes, now that's one thing. But maybe later he's going to start selecting runaways or juvenile delinquents, or girls that hang out in bars. They are the kinds of people who you don't identify as directly falling into your profiles.
Let's say he chose those who were not carded prostitutes, but who are delinquents and runaways. He just shifted his approach to victims a notch to the right. He's not going for prostitutes, but prostitute types, who dress or act or look to him like prostitutes.
if you haven't found them yet he's just disposing of them very well or it would be my guess he may have moved and is no longer operating in the king county area there are people who don't appear on your list and your statement about possible victims in pierce county fascinates me i don't know why and i just offer it for pure speculation i think the man's out of pierce county
"'I don't know why. I just get a strong feeling he's out somewhere between the cities of Auburn and Tacoma. I don't know why. That's why I was so fascinated. I just had a strong feeling the guy's out of Pierce County, and that intrigued me. I said, whoa, I'd like to find out more about him. I feel that way because all the victims are moving south, from where they were last seen to where their bodies were discovered.'
And that could be a deliberate attempt by him to set you off. All the victims, except for the ones moving west, have moved south from the point where they were last seen. Some distance south, it was significant that he went north of Tacoma. Except for the Tacoma victim, Wendy Cofield, that you put on your list. They're all moving south, and my guess, it's not a mistake.
I think he's going south, home, and he knows the mountain. He's just saying, well, I'm going to try this, this time. But you notice, the ones east of Enumclaw, Enumclaw is really northeast, Pierce County, southeast, King County, and probably in terms of access to his homing area, one of the nearest mountain pass areas to Tacoma, Puleap, and Auburn area.
In terms of getting up to the mountains, and I know that Enumclaw, the area east of Enumclaw, like the back of my hand. And that is an area, probably what this guy is looking for. There should be a number of the victim's bodies up there, considering you have already found three bodies. When I saw two, I said, there's more up there.
the river like you say isn't the only thing that matters to him something like you know a needle in a haystack if you look at your turnarounds places to pull off the road and look at your sights on dirt roads you might get lucky and find more bodies it seems to me
What I'm saying is that you guys saw some trends. Like the trend to take Seattle victims west and up toward the mountains or way south, or the trend to get better as time went along, or the trend to go east of Enumclaw after September and October of 83. You know, that interested me.
And I felt from the beginning, though, from what little I knew, selecting these sites with some care, that he's going back, probably a number of times, to bring bodies in the area, or come back and check on a body, or check out the area. Ted loved being listened to, and talked for a long while.
It was obvious to Bob and Dave that in many ways Ted was describing his own methods and psyche when trying to describe the Green River Killer. One aspect of the interview concerned how the killer observed his victims. When asked, Ted replied, and I quote,
and i have to say this guy is in and out and closely observing his victims if not all the time in the area at least a particular victim some period of time
is going to a great deal of trouble to check out the area, and everything that goes on in that area. It's not just the prostitutes or the police. He's very conscious of the police. I bet you he can feel them, undercover or whatever, because he's very conscious of not wanting to have anybody observe him approach one of those girls. But also because, you know,
He's lived in that scene long enough. He knows what they look like. He can sense when they're coming. And so he's very conscious of all kinds of activity. And my guess is, generally speaking, and I'm sure there are exceptions, when he's just driving along and sees something he likes, it feels right. He looks around, parks the car, and, you know, starts looking.
I don't know how many suspect vehicles you may have on your list, but I'm pretty sure he's very careful about where he puts his car. I just don't think he's the type that's going to drive up to the curb and have them get in. That might be another question you've probably already asked your ladies out there if they have to walk any distance to his car. And is his car parked in kind of an unusual place? Have you asked that question?
Bob Keppel and Dave Reichert glanced at each other. They had not. In later interviews, Keppel and Reichert has dismissed the idea that Ted Bundy actually helped move the investigation into the Green River killings. Reading about his interview with Keppel and Reichert makes me think otherwise.
A lot of what Bundy was saying was obvious self-evident stuff. However, it is clear to me that Bundy's intimate knowledge of what it means being a psychopathic sexual serial killer gave Keppel and Reichert insight they otherwise would not have. Let us listen to what Ted answered when questioned what motivates a serial killer to kill.
Again, it is quite a long quote, but bear with me. He's an active killer in his own way. He knows, in the detailed recesses of his mind, how this particular behavior pattern evolved.
He obviously did not start on July the 7th, 1982, and he was feeling like he wants to kill. I could speculate more, and some speculation might be useful in terms of your investigation, but some of it is purely academic. I mean, this would be purely speculating. Just looking at his victims...
There are an infinite number of ways to explain how a man can come to the point where he destroys human life, as this person has. And I suppose the only way to really know, someday, is to have the man studied. Even then, who knows, you get some verification from the killer. He's killing because there's some link, obviously, between sex and violence.
Look at the number of prostitutes that were found nude more often than not. The fatal link between sex and violence has been made. I don't know whether it's anything anybody can rationally describe or explain, except that sometimes our society promotes that link between sex and violence unknowingly through the media and whatnot.
I think for whatever reason, however, he got to the point of killing prostitutes because he made a deliberate determination that those were prey. It may be that he has something specifically against prostitutes. What really confounds me in this case is the number of black prostitutes. I mean, this guy is an equal opportunity killer and that fascinates me.
He doesn't seem to have a preference racially. That's kind of odd. I don't know if it's odd in the whole scheme of things, but it certainly did puzzle me. Obviously, he did not shy away from black prostitutes. And I don't know if, looking at the data on teenage prostitutes, he might not be seeking out a greater share of blacks or not. I don't know. There certainly are a number at the moment.
Whatever inner drives are motivating him now, it's sort of like it's sort of obvious that it's either a preoccupation or an obsession. He is influenced by a number of factors, both internal and external. Internally, I'm sure his desire to kill ebbs and flows, as you can see, generally, by your list of victims. Externally, there may be any number of things influencing him.
Publicity, the formation of the task force, car trouble, job trouble, illness, you know, a whole host of things, everyday stuff that everybody goes through. There are some interesting gaps in this series. For instance, he skips November '82, if your list is complete. He skips January and February of '83, again assuming your list is complete. Sometimes these gaps are significant.
He might have been sick or had car trouble. The gaps may have been just an anomaly, or maybe an accident. Perhaps he did get somebody you don't know about. Or maybe, in fact, when he did Colleen Brockman, somebody saw him, or did something that scared the shit out of him. Because he really put himself out on the line and was at risk. You shouldn't lock yourself into a pattern.
i'd hate to restrict my own analysis of any problem by saying this is the pattern there are patterns but that may be imposing my own hit stuff on what's already there that might not be what is actually going on
And so there's some interesting things I think we're talking about. Location of the bodies, how he progressed from area to area, and how he seems to jump around from dump site to dump site, and so forth. But as far as his pattern goes, I'm just looking here at frequency, how often he does it, and just trying to get a feel for his own inner intensity.
What is driving this guy, you know, from the inside out? And how often does he have to satisfy that, notwithstanding his desire to be cautious and avoid detection? And this guy, again relying on these lists as being pretty accurate, he does one a week in July, does five in August, settles down to two and three a month until next May, when he gets four. That's pretty damn active.
He's going Sunday through Saturday, generally speaking not showing a preference for weekends. He's going all days of the week, spreading them out. Two and three a month is pretty intense, even after some of the bodies have been discovered. But like you say, the task force wasn't formed until January, and the bulk of the bodies weren't found until early 84, and I think that's probably what's motivating him.
Motivations, here, they are seriously complicated, with some sexual and violent motivations, and you wouldn't see him as one primarily motivated by a religious drive. My guess is if he's not picked these victims because he knows they're accessible, easily picked up, and difficult to investigate, as far as law enforcement is concerned—
He's picking them because he has some particular grudge against them, and a real hang-up, you know, beyond viewing them as young women. And I sense in this that it's not a venting of religious anger or moral outrage, but a desire to kill and to harm these people. He will be doing that and probably continue to do it. I can't imagine him stopping." End quote.
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And so it is that we end part seven in the tale of the Green River Killer. Next episode, we'll round off our intimate meeting with Ted and start closing in on our main villain. So as they say in the land of radio, stay tuned. Finally, I wish to thank you, dear listener, for listening.
If you like this podcast, you can support it by donating on patreon.com slash theserialkillarpodcast, by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, facebook.com slash theskpodcast, or by posting on the subreddit theskpodcast. Thank you, good night, and good luck.
