Shownotes Transcript
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Hold on. I'm in the wrong doc. Hold on. What happened? I just had the wrong doc pulled up. It's not a doc today. A lot of docs today. I kind of want that to be the opening. That was very funny. Leave it in. Hey, ladies. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you're listening to The Right Podcast, which is Vibe Check.
I am trying to get my life together. We're out here doing the best we can with what we've got. We really are. Oh, my goodness. On that note, lovely, lovely episode for y'all this week because this is the first time that all three of us are together to record in the new year. Last week, Saeed was out, but now it's guess who's back? Back again. Saeed's back. Tell a friend. The trio is reconnected.
I've missed you so much. I will save this for my vibe check. But I was walking through the snowy wilds of Vermont and I was like, I can't believe they are fully using my absence from this week's episode to troll me in every possible way. I was like, what is this? Wait, how did we troll you? How did we troll you, sweetie? We weren't trolling you. I mean, we were, but we weren't. Okay. All right. Well, guess who's black in the house? I'm back. And
And there will be hell to pay. I'm excited. I was like, okay. I was like, all right. I got 10 days up here to build up my energy and then I'm going to give it to them. All right. But we've got a lot to talk about. This week, we're going to discuss the Iowa caucus because sure, why not? Which is really the vibe.
But really, I think we're interested in what if any meaning, value as we move toward the presidential election in November this year, we can maybe glean from what happened in Iowa on Monday. And then we're going to talk about the rise of musical films that aren't being marketed as such. I'm sure you've noticed that we all have. It's a thing. But before we get into all of that, sisters, how are you feeling? Sam?
I'm going to go first. And I have a surprise for everybody. I have a surprise for y'all. Oh, great. Wait, did you get a dog? Shut up. Hold on. I think I know what this is. Just by the look of his face, I hear clinking of tags. I think, listeners, we were about to be surprised with the dog. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.
That's Wesley. Wesley. Wesley the Pitbull. Tell us about Wesley. As y'all know, 2023 was rough for me. I told Saeed Jones at one point it was my Job year, like that tough.
And one of the realities of last year was facing my elder dog's mortality. Zora the dog is old. And at some point she will die. And I wanted her to have a friend as she starts to make that journey. So this weekend I adopted a seven-month-old rescue pit bull puppy. I just saw him and I was like, you're a Wesley. And on a good day, you're Wesley Morris. On a bad day, you're Wesley Snipes. But he's great. Yeah.
Wow. Which Wesley Snipes, Sam? Like Blade Wesley Snipes? Tax evasion. Oh, it's New Jack City. It is New Jack City. Oh, I love that. How are they getting along? I've known Zora for a while. We love Zora, queen of our lives. How is she liking her new friend? Because she loves other dogs. She does love other dogs. And like...
She is totally happy with any other dog if they all know that she is the queen of the house. And watching Zora very respectfully set her boundaries has been a beautiful lesson to behold. You know, she is kind, but when she's done, she lets you know. And another thing, don't mess with Zora's food, okay? But they love each other. They love to cuddle. They share the same spot on the couch and, like, spoon each other already. Yeah.
I'm so excited to have the journey of raising up a child dog in 2024. Wesley has already warmed the way into my heart. That was the best surprise ever. I'm impressed that you were able to keep this a secret. I know. I was so excited. I got him on Saturday.
I also want to say, I know I guessed immediately what this was, but you haven't said you were getting a dog. You haven't been talking about this. This isn't something you've been dwelling on or getting people's advice on. You've mentioned it in the past, like, oh, Zora should have a friend, but she has other friends in her friend group. She has lots of dogs. So I didn't think it was going to happen right now. So I am very surprised, but there's like a face you have around dogs and babies. And that's why I saw the face and I was like, it's a dog. It's a dog in the room. Yeah.
I love it. Welcome, Wesley. Listeners, I've done puppy stuff before, but it's been many years. So send tips and pointers. That's my vibe. Well, damn, that was a great vibe check. Zach, what's your vibe?
My vibe is not new puppy, even though that would be wonderful. I just I can't have a dog because my vibe this week is I'm on the road again. Yeah, you'd have to have a dog that could fit in your carry on bag. Yeah, that sounds exhausting. I'm like, I don't need a little dog. I told my mom once I was like, I can't be that gay with like the little dog going around the country. We accept all gays. You could be a small dog gay.
One day. I wager you just can't be that gay now. Now. Now I don't want to be that gay. There's always time. But in retirement in Palm Springs, get your little pocket dog. I would get a long-haired dachshund if I had to get a little pocket dog. It would be a long-haired dachshund. Anyway, that's for the future. Tomorrow, I will be in Park City for Sundance. Oh. As we're taping this, I'm not even packed, which is very unlike me.
like me. That's because I got to pack and get ready. But I will be at Sundance this year seeing all the movies, all the things, and I'm really excited about it. And next week I'll be taping Vibe Check from Sundance and I'll be able to give people maybe a lay of the land. But I'm super excited to be in the snow. I have to ask, Zach, you're going to be in Utah. Yeah.
the ancestral homeland of the Salt Lake City housewives. Oh my God. Will there be any housewife in your situation? You said ancestral homes and I was like, is he about to talk about indigenous people? No, of course not. He's going to talk about that stupid fucking reality television franchise that he knows he should only discuss when I'm not recording. Well,
Are you finding housewives, Zach? Are you finding them? Well, I will say this. I historically, last year, I did get to hang out and become friends with the Meredith Marks from The Real Housewives. As they began filming the season, what's wild is I literally, that's when I met Meredith and I was hanging out with her and she was saying that they were beginning to film next week. And she was like, I'm going to launch this podcast with my husband. And that's like the first episode of the season. So,
I'm excited to be like, hey girl, what's going on? You guys are filming again. So I'm going to see what tea I can get and maybe I'll spill it here. But Meredith Marks is someone I will see this week actually in Sundance. Yeah.
My thing is, because one of my takeaways from your discussion about the show last week is that the housewives need to tighten up. Maybe if you weren't chitting and chatting so freely, people like this so-called Monica lady wouldn't be able to. So, ladies, Zach Stafford is on his way to Sundance. And I say, you know, shut up. Tighten up. Be quiet. Meredith, I don't know, you know.
So that's what's going on with me. Saeed, what's your vibe? You're back. You're wearing the beautiful Bennington College pink sweatshirt that I now want. Yeah. A great pink. Thank you. For the dolls. Hi. Yeah, it's great to be back. One, it was great. We were there on campus for 10 days. It was really intense. It's like lectures and classes. And then, you know, I was teaching a workshop with Eula Biss, and that was...
I think two hours every day. My lunches were all lunch meetings with my students about their work. So it was just, you're just in it. And then, you know, now it'll be like email correspondence with my five students for the rest of the term. I just really enjoyed it. You know, as the two of you know, I'm working on a new book.
I'm deep in it myself. So one, you know, I think it's healthy for any artist, not just to be, you know, surrounded by other artists as I was. Shout out to my housemates, Randall and Taymor of Fiction Writers, Poets Writers, both queer writers of color. It was so fun for us to have our little cottage. And it was like way at the edge of campus. So in the evenings, it just felt like we were at a cozy little cabin, you know, in the woods. Yeah.
But also, you know, I think it's really great to tap into your spirit as a mentor. And I think if you make it far enough into your career that you can begin to realize you have the capacity as a mentor, you realize that it's not hierarchical. It's collaborative. And so...
you know, I just feel like my spirit's invigorated and it was really great, you know, and when you have to kind of like explain a concept of writing to someone else, you're enriching yourself. You're kind of like, do you hear what you're saying? That doesn't make sense and maybe I need to do better. It was really fun. Some other stuff I would say, first of all,
Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House is based on a real mansion that was literally right across the field from my cottage. I looked at it. It was like right there. It was, you know, everything was kind of spread out, but it was like a two minute walk and it was right there. We went in there one night because my roommate, Tamor, is a chaos agent.
And he was like, let's go in there. And I was like, we absolutely should go in there. Y'all went in. We went in and we were in there for two minutes. And then he saw a creepy, creepy piano. And he was like, should I play it? And I literally...
See? And I literally just screamed, I'm black and ran out. Y'all ain't getting me. Are you kidding? We know the rules. We know the rules. We know the rules. Tamor's Pakistani. I was like, maybe y'all have a different relationship to horror and all that, but I know the game. Yeah. Yeah.
It was just really fun and ironically it did snow. We got like four inches of snow, but it's not the snow you have to look out for. It turns out it's the wind. We had two major wind storms, which when you're in the woods, it's so different because trees I now know roar. There's something about what the wind does in trees. It's like jet engines.
And so two different nights, we had gusts of winds up to 70 miles per hour. What? A cheetah? Whoa. Whoa. I was like, oh, shit. Yeah, so Vermont's on some new shit. I was like, okay, 10 days, time to go home. Okay, so...
70 mile windstorms that make the trees howl. Yep. A haunted mansion across the street. Baby, where's the screenplay? This is a horror film. Robert Frost spent some time up there. And if you remember like his famous line, you know, good fences make good neighbors. Like not exactly the friendliest outlook. I was like, oh, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we are glad you're back.
You're glowing with all of the goodness you got from that trip. I can see it on you. So this is just a joy to have you here. Good to be back. It's so good to have you. Before we get into things for this episode, I want to remind people to check out our bonus episode next week with Cord Jefferson, journalist, director, TV and film writer. He directed the film American Fiction, which is getting a lot of good Oscar buzz. I talk with Cord about the movie and a lot of other things that'll be in your feeds next
next Tuesday. Check for it. Also, you know, we're all friends with Kord, so I'm comfortable saying this. It's a podcast, so I understand it's not a visual medium, but Kord is also what you might say a cutie patootie. And I just wanted to share that with all of you. Come on now. Yeah. Don't let it get to your head, Kord. Don't let it get to your head.
All right, listeners, before we get into this episode, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love reading your messages, so keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Also, ladies, thank you, thank you, thank you for all of the beautiful, amazing, incredible, and on-time reviews you left. We literally just said, hey, when you have time, do this thing in a
immediately we saw a huge uptick on an apple podcast of reviews and ratings so we appreciate it we love all of you so much for that we're almost to a thousand help us get there and we may do something really special we don't know what that is yet but we'll figure it out yeah pizza party chuck e cheese pizza party all right well with that shall we jump in girls let's jump in
Cue the PTSD alarm bell. We got to talk about the Iowa caucuses right now. Nothing is better, listeners.
than being the friend of someone who has been on presidential campaign trails like Sam Sanders. Nothing is better than knowing that the day will come the moment you agree to do a news and culture podcast, knowing that your beloved dear friend will be forced by nature of politics to revisit trauma. And this day has arrived. The trauma. And let me just say before we set up the Iowa. How you feeling, baby? I covered election 2016 for NPR. I'm,
And when they had me cover the Iowa caucuses, I was there altogether for three weeks in the dead of winter. Oh, my. And Iowa folks are so nice. But by the end of it, I was like, girl, if you don't get me out of here, if you don't get me out of here. Here's the thing. To really cover the Iowa caucus as well, you have to travel across the state because the candidates campaigned across the state. The whole time it is below freezing. And the whole time everyone keeps going outside. And you're like, what? Yeah. What? What?
What? Anywho, that happened. It was nice for the last 24 hours to put back on my political reporter hat. Let's talk about it now just for a bit because it was such predictable results. The caucuses happened Monday night and it comes as no surprise that Donald Trump won by a lot. Donald Trump got 51 percent of the Iowa caucus vote. Ron DeSantis got 21 percent and Nikki Haley was in
third with 19.1% of caucus votes. Vivek Ramaswamy did a lot worse and he actually dropped out the next morning. Anywho, the big takeaway is that this whole thing was such a predictable landslide. The AP called the Iowa caucuses at
8.31 p.m. Eastern, just half an hour after the voting began. We all knew it would be this way, and it was this way. First question for you. Any takeaways from this thing that we knew was going to happen?
Um, I would say, I think maybe if we look at this data, we can see that the Republican Party isn't 100% behind Trump. There's still some fractures, small fractures, but some fractures that could be exploited by the Dems if they want it. However, when you have one candidate, people do vote across party lines. So it kind of doesn't matter. Certain Republicans are just always going to vote Republicans up.
I don't know if I see as much hope as certain people have given this, but it's really, it's Trump's show and we're just watching it right now. There you go. Yeah. If you were looking for hope, I would say, oh, wow, you've been in a coma since 2008. That's crazy. But welcome back. My two takeaways, you will notice I have a weather theme to this episode. So work with me. Even though people are used to Iowa, of course, it's January being cold. It was cold yesterday.
Even for Iowans? Yeah, like extra cold. They're worried about turnout. Yeah. Yeah. Like historic winter chill going on there. So that really impacts, again, even for what people there are used to, made a situation where Trump is inevitably going to be the nominee. Yeah.
And so you're trying to decide, do I really want to go out and go stand in the school gymnasium or library and just walk around the room for a few hours? Or am I just going to stay home and, oh, look, honey, we just got a news push notification. We were putting on our coats and Trump's already, you know. So one, that influences turnout. And then that leads to my second point, that it just accentuates that this primary just revealed the diehard Trump. Like the people who showed up,
really, really, really love Trump even more so than the casual white supremacist one might say. I'm sorry, I meant Republican voter, obviously. That was a misstep. I don't know. I haven't recorded the podcast in a minute. But the second thing in terms of takeaways is seeing if Nikki Haley could outperform Ron DeSantis. I guess that's the only interesting thing. And she didn't. And they were close. She didn't. They were like two points apart, but he won, which is wild. But...
What I find so fascinating, and actually it's no longer fascinating because it was true the last time Trump ran,
Donald Trump controlling the GOP and its primary voters so thoroughly just totally eviscerates what had been the playbook for how to win Iowa for decades. For decades, the thinking was to win Iowa, you must campaign everywhere across the state, every county. You had to get endorsements from all of these relatively unknown political leaders in the state. And that was the formula.
But with these primary results, we saw that the guy who followed the formula, Ron DeSantis, he came in a distant second. He did all of the formulaic things you were supposed to do. He was the only candidate who campaigned in all of the counties, right? And he ended up doing worse than his polling said he was at at the start of the race. And so this just underscores the ways in which Donald Trump has fundamentally changed the way Republicans choose their candidates.
And this is a big deal because even once Trump is gone, that method of choosing candidates may still exist. And that method is be combative, get national media attention, pick fights. And when you want to campaign, you can actually just send your surrogates to do it for you. That was interesting. Trump missed a lot of campaigning because he was in court. So he would send folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene to campaign on his behalf. The playbook for how Republicans do elections has forever been changed by Trump. Forever changed. Yeah.
But I would love to, Sam, get your thoughts on comparing this to the democratic process in the caucuses, the last cycle. So Pete Buttigieg famously won the caucus, similar to Obama. Obama won the caucus and it's what helped him get ahead. And the Buttigieg one was really surprising because he was not very competitive later down the line, but that was a really stunning moment because he did the formula you just spoke about. He went to every county, he talked to every person, he was very personable. But Ron DeSantis failed so much. So what do you think that tells us about
just voters? What are they looking for when they're willing to take a chance on a new person? Because it sounds like, you know, Ron DeSantis isn't the person they're willing to take a chance on. So much of the way these candidates have to campaign in Iowa is like speed dating. So like, you got to talk about the issues. You got to say, I believe in the party line, et cetera. But also you have to convince voters that you're fun to be around, that you're engaging, that you'd want to have a beer with them. And like,
I don't think Mayor Pete or Ron DeSantis would win a miscongeniality contest, but Mayor Pete knows how to charm a voter in ways that Ron DeSantis has never figured out. I think that's the biggest difference. Ron DeSantis is so stiff. That man is so stiff. And Mayor Pete can be charming when he needs to. He is not the most charming of all of them, but he can try. He can do it a little bit.
Sam, I'm so glad you mentioned the beer test, which is to say, and you alluded to it, but for a long time, there's this idea that people want to vote for a candidate. And I think this is a presumption that the candidate would be male, but that's a person I would have a beer with. That was kind of the idea. Yes, oh yeah. I would ask that question on the trail. Absolutely. And the Iowa caucus kind of a
it. And we knew this. I mean, it's like the worst thing for Ron DeSantis as a candidate is for voters to encounter Ron DeSantis the candidate. He's...
He's so unpleasant. Anything you've read, any interview, anything from anyone who's had like a moment of interaction with him, it's like at best he's awkward. At worst, it's actually unsettling. Yeah, he's either like robotic, he's off-putting. So, yeah, you know, and that's an interaction most voters in the U.S. will not have with candidates, but it certainly impacts a lot of these caucuses. Well, and like when you think about the other competitors he was dealing with, you know,
Nikki Haley can be charming when she wants to be. Donald Trump is charming in this evil, maniacal devil. You can't stop watching kind of way. He's charismatic and that's enough for him. But yeah, Ron never had it. Well,
Well, Sam, another topic I'd love to get your thoughts on are the rates in which Iowans don't believe the last election was real, but they're still participating in the caucuses. So talk to us about that sentiment right now and what that says about this coming election. What does that mean for us? Yeah. So we are entering an election in which more than ever before, Americans don't trust elections.
Recent polling data says that half, 51% or so of Americans don't think our democracy is in the best shape. They think it's in trouble. Democrats think it's in trouble because of Trump. Republicans think it's in trouble because of all of the legal actions against Trump and because they still think the election was stolen. On top of that, some polling in the middle of 2023, just a few months ago, found that one in three of Americans, not just voters, all Americans, think that
that the election in 2020 was stolen. People are still thinking that. Can you imagine that one in three Americans? The polling data also tells us that the more legal trouble Donald Trump confronts, the more his supporters support him. So we're entering an election season in which both sides are gonna try to get their voters to come out and vote by kind of saying, you know, elections suck.
It's going to be really weird to watch either party thread that needle and work that logic. But I do believe we're in crisis. It's not sustainable to have a population in which a third to half of the population don't think this whole thing works well. Yeah, I'm scared about the presidential election for many reasons. But something I want to highlight is this idea. I would call it from the pundit class, the op-ed class.
This idea that to hold Trump or, let's say, January 6 participants accountable, don't do that. You'll only agitate them. And to agitate them is to make them stronger. I'm really struck by how much that tracks with a lot of the haunted language around living with an abusive parent or partner. Don't speak about reality.
Because he'll get mad. You know, and I, one, I don't believe that's true. I think holding people accountable for attempted coups or for attempts to overturn elections is important if you care about the elections, if you want to improve people's relationship to electoral reality. But also, it's so disturbing that in addition to Trump's diehard white supremacist
base. We also have people who are trying to position themselves as the alternative, or dare I say it, the protectors of democracy. And even their language is, don't speak up too loud. Don't, don't, you know. Well, this is the thing. This is why it's going to be so hard for Democrats to do what they want to do this November. Because on the one hand, they want to say,
Trump is a threat to democracy. If he wins again, America as we know it is over. But this is the same party that time after time, when they have the opportunity to go after Trump and what he did to the fullest extent, they don't. The people who are doing it are the Letitia James and prosecutors in states like Georgia and New York. But Democrats have not yet figured out how much they want to try to hold Republicans accountable.
Meanwhile, Republicans are taking Hunter Biden for all he's got and they won't stop. You know, it's it's it's interesting to see. And I don't want to go on and on about this for too long because listeners, you hear this stuff all the time. It's in the air. It's in the ether. But I will say it's important to even though we know or we think we know how this thing will end in terms of the nominees. You got to keep watching. Yes, I think you're right.
And in terms of actions, listeners, if you are really scared about Trump, as I am, and you feel that Biden winning reelection is essential to protecting this country, however you want to define it, here's what I will tell you.
In the conversations you have with people who express ambivalence about voting or ambivalence or frustration about voting for Biden, I want you to dig down deep. Take a pause. Do you need to come up with something better than, well, if you don't support Biden, then you're supporting Trump? Whether or not that is true, I'm here to tell you from someone who's been talking about writing and rhetoric nonstop for 10 days, it's not persuasive.
And what I will tell you is, do you want to be right or do you want to win? That's it. On that note, listeners, taking a break. I want to pat myself on the back for getting through an Iowa chat without the PTSD taking me down. Yeah. Go sit over there and pet Zora and Wesley for a second. You earned it, baby. Yes. When we come back, an entire departure, we're going to talk about movie musicals.
This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.
I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture.
And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.
Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.
All right, listeners, we are back and we are going to talk movie musicals. And I have a feeling in my gut when I just said movie musicals. I'm going to clear my throat out so I can sing. No, do not sing. Super no. Absolutely not. But similar to people's feelings about Sam's singing, some people love, some people may not love. Movie musicals. Wesley, come over here. Oh, I did not think that's where that was going. Wesley.
Sam set me up because he started singing. You know, I had to go through the door open and I walked through it. But no, I enjoy Sam singing because I cannot sing. However, you know, people are pretty divided about musicals. Movie musicals, though, are having a surge. And it's really interesting, especially someone who who has worked in musicals. I've worked on Broadway. I do some work on film stuff. But.
know the big thing that people say all the time is no one likes to move a musical lately however the numbers right now are very complicated so to give you some examples over the past month or so we've seen a few huge movies come out that are actually doing not too bad in theaters one of them is mean girls came out last week it has already recouped its budget almost for the entire budget of the film which is 30 million dollars so in one weekend it made its money back they're good
Then you have the color purple, which did huge numbers on Christmas Day. Huge, huge, huge. Over $18 million in a day.
However, huge slump, and we're going to get into that. But however, the crown jewel of the moment is- Don't say that. Don't say that. Wonka. What? With the chalamet. Oh, Jesus. Wonka is doing well? Wonka, somehow, someway, has now gone over half a billion dollars. A billion? Half a billion dollars, honey. Global box office. Global box office.
Timothee Chalamet is a star. We forget that he is a star. Everything I have ever learned, heard, or seen about Timothee Chalamet since Call Me By Your Name has been against my will. Yeah, it is. He's being forced. And I have no reason to dislike this man. I just do not like him.
I will say I like his style on the red carpet. I like the choices him and his stylist make. And I enjoyed him in Dune. I don't know. I thought that was pretty cool. Oh, yeah, Dune was great. I like that he speaks French. And so that's kind of cool. Here's what I will say. I just realized that, damn, I really am in a bubble because...
I don't know a single person who has gone to see Wonka. And if they have, they've been quiet about it, which also feels telling. I've seen a lot of folks that have gone to see it. And when I was road tripping to Texas over the Christmas break, my dear friend Omar, we wanted to go see a movie. And he was like, I want to go see Wonka. And I was like, you do? He was like, yeah, my sister and her kids saw it. So we're about to get tickets. And then before we get in the car, I was like, Omar, you do know Wonka.
this is a musical, right? Timmy is singing. And he was like, oh shit, I didn't know. And then we did not go to that movie. Literally changed his mind. It changed his mind. Thank you for building the bridge to the beginning of this conversation because what you just said is the complication right now in Hollywood. These movies are coming out. They made them, but people
actually have no idea they're musicals. So some of these numbers are incredible for opening weekends because people are arriving being like, oh, Mean Girls. It's going to be a remake. And then they realize it's musicals and some of them sing. And that's been a very intentional choice. We have learned through lots of reporting through the Hollywood Reporter and Variety that it's
studios are not willing to do commercials, marketing materials, anything to let you know before you enter the theater that you are about to see people singing and dancing because they don't think you'll go. Why do you think that is? That's really interesting because then that means that the marketing was very successful.
But there are limitations to the success. Because that, to me, means, like, if people show up, like, Christmas Day was the color purple. And I believe it was the best Christmas Day box office debut in 20 years. So everyone goes. Like, there's a huge turnout because of the trailer, because of how it's been marketed. And there's some erasure and some secrecy there. Yeah.
But then it seems like it doesn't develop via word of mouth because that's what would lead to the follow-up success. The people who first turn out become advocates for the film. And like The Color Purple, I believe, has an 87 on Rotten Tomatoes. Barbie has 88. And I know Rotten Tomatoes is there's a lot going on there. But still, it's like it's a critically acclaimed film. I think it's an
excellent film, but maybe it's like people turn out and they're a little like, huh? And then that's what stops them from becoming. This supports my theory. So I have two parts of this theory, but to piggyback off of Saeed, when you look at the three movies,
that are musicals that we're discussing this segment, Wonka, Mean Girls, and The Color Purple, the one that had the biggest debut and so far the most staying power is Wonka because it is a musical for kids. And what do kids like to do when they like a movie? Go see it again and again and again. And what do parents like to do? Get them kids in the theaters and they'll shut up for two hours. Right? And so I think...
That's part of Wonka's success. I also think that a lot of the reason why these studios don't want to market musicals as musicals is because musicals take more work. The songs and musicals are generally more complex and intricate than the pop you hear on the radio. And so to hear that kind of song and absorb it, you've got to be in the right frame of mind.
The dialogue moves really quickly in musical songs, Hamilton being the most egregious example. But you have to keep up with moving and dancing and singing and plot. And then they're moving over here and dancing and singing, too. It's a lot. You got to be ready to go. And I also think that a lot of people, men especially, hear the word musical.
And think gay. Yes. And they don't want to do it. Yep. And thus enters my next point. Yeah. I think when we get to the movie context, yeah, musical is, and this is a modern contemporary context, is coded as feminine.
related but not the same, or queer. Which one we know is not true. I mean, talk about like the history of the great white way, and I'm using that language specifically for a reason to talk about Broadway. It actually has a long history of this tension between gender and homophobia. But yeah, and I mean, it shows, I think, that capitalism has shame because capitalism is about
about patriarchy and white supremacy. So under that infrastructure, even something like Barbie, an unapologetic film that, as y'all have talked about, saved Hollywood, literally saved people's jobs.
capitalism cannot confidently acknowledge that success. It will shame feminists, it will shame women, it will shame anything coded as that, including queerness, even as it profits from it.
And I think that's part of the issue with musicals is that, yeah, there are some people who, you know, maybe have different feelings about why they're not as enthusiastic for musicals. But also, I think in terms of marketing, the execs, the Bob Igers and the David Savzlovs, I think, you know, really mirror that instinct. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and this is so true. And it points out this really weird conundrum in Hollywood right now. This is it too gay situation reminds me a lot of the way that it felt when Disney at first was afraid to release Black Panther because they thought it was too black. There was a fight amongst the executive class at Disney over whether the Black Panther film could work.
And so we have now the American viewing public being more diverse than it's ever been. And the leadership on top of Hollywood still being extremely conservative and the types of diversity it thinks viewers want to see.
Yeah.
Then a viewer will understandably go, but I could literally watch Mean Girls today. What's the difference? Why are we doing this? When instead we know the Broadway musical Mean Girls was incredibly successful. It's a different text. It's a different project. And so, I don't know. It's like they're so obsessed with appealing to—it's almost like Matt Rife. I feel like there's just this thing that we're seeing— I did not expect that.
Yeah, that was out of left field. Because there's an alignment between individuals practicing white supremacy and misogyny and corporations. Matt Rife was so obsessed with appealing to the kind of audience he thought he wanted when he finally got his big deal special that he tanked and diminished and chased away the women who had made him successful.
I just think there's this thing, and you know, like, obviously there are all kinds of people who love musicals that are not queer or women, but I think the mindset of the media executives are very obsessed with them.
with the rest of them. You know what I mean? Yeah. Something I want to bring up is musicals and musical films are very complicated in Hollywood because they think they won't sell, but then Wonka's selling. So what do we do? Or The Lion King. All of us have watched The Lion King, The Little Mermaid. Those are musicals. They're animated. So they do work. We love them. But to your point, Saeed, they're sometimes, they're feminized or they're infantilized, but they're not seen as...
proper male Hollywood movies like Oppenheimer and thus the industry like shirks at them. However, they do bring in some money and some numbers that are interesting. Guess how many musicals have ever won an Oscar for best picture in the entire history of the Oscars? Guess. Is Chicago the only one? It's not the only one. So it's the last one and that's been over 20 years ago. But in the entire history of Hollywood, there's only been 10 movies that have ever won. And some of those include The Sound of Music,
Singing in the Rain, and Chicago is the last one. The Oops, of course, was La La Land in 2016, but they did not win. They won everything else, but they did not win that. So, you know, the Academy itself is feeling very complicated. However, people do love music in movies when it's diegetic. So if it makes sense in their minds that they're singing. So Bohemian Rhapsody produced lots of wins because it was about Freddie Mercury and Queen, and people loved that.
And there's no bait and switch there. The trailer is like Freddie Mercury's character singing. And it's chronological. It follows his life in order, in sequence, so it feels more manageable, I think, to people. Or like the Barbie film. There's going to be a dance party. She's not singing, but, you know, it kind of feels like a full Hollywood kind of throwback kind of scene. Yeah, and people love me. I mean, Salt Burn's another example. It's not a musical, but the music moment at the end. That dude was dancing, wasn't he? He was dancing. Ugh.
That was the only thing dancing in that film. It was a mess. So I would say the big takeaway for everyone here is, you know, I don't know if I love that the studios aren't marketing these movies as musicals because I think it bites them in the butt at the end of the day. However, I think people still like them and we're still figuring out how to make that work every day. Yeah. I will say, speaking of still like them, I had put off seeing The Color Purple, I'll be honest, because I wasn't sure I wanted all of the songs. I loved the original. I loved the book. And I was like...
Do we really need all this singing and hooting and hollering to make this story better? Turns out, baby girl, it worked. By the end of The Color Purple, I was weeping in my seat. The way Fantasia can emote and evoke pain in the most humanistic way, truly a vision. Danielle Brooks does the work. Like, it worked for me. And so it's like, I want...
other viewers of movies to have the same experiences. Saying yes to musicals more often than not can give you some really good movie moments. When a musical works on all cylinders, it works. I will say, I agree. I would say of the last, honestly, it probably goes to Chicago. And that's 20 years. Movie musicals, I think The Color Purple is one of the best. It moved me. And I think the reason it's the best is that the music feels organic because to go to the very themes
of Alice Walker's novel, there is a tension between gospel, which comes from the church, right? Black gospel and the sacred living in tension with blues, right? The secular and Suge Avery and the looseness and push the button, which is about the freedom and even the queerness that the blues can afford us. And so that's a genuine organic theme with the original text and does it make sense as a musical? And it's just incredible. I think it's, go see The Color Purple. It's incredible.
Well, with that, we have to close this segment, but we could talk about this forever. But listeners, tell us, what's your favorite musical? Do you love Chicago as much as I do? As much as Saeed does, I think. It's so good. It's so good. Rob Marshall, so fun. Queen Latifah. Queen Latifah can sing. She can sing. Fun fact, when you read the Britney Spears memoir, she reveals that she was up for the main role in Chicago, but did not want to do it back then. So that's why we get her in a sidewalker.
Imagine the butterfly effect of Britney Spears getting Chicago, the movie musical. Maybe there's no conservatorship. Maybe Trump doesn't win. Oh my God. Cars would be flying. Flying cars. Let's leave it there. To Britney. We have to go. We're taking a break.
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My loves, we are back. And before we end the show, we, of course, like to share something that's helping us keep our vibe right this week. Sam, you want to start? Yeah, I have a type of thing I've never recommended before, but it's a good recommendation. Trust me on this. Last night, I knew that I wanted to follow the Iowa caucus results and I didn't want to watch cable news all night. So I was like, I will tell Alexa to play NPR special coverage and I'll cook, which I
which I rarely do these days, but I'll be cooking while I can hear the Iowa caucus results. Turns out the caucus results came before I'd even put the tomato sauce on the boil, but I love this tomato sauce recipe and I'm going to recommend it for folks who want something easy and breezy to cook. There is a three ingredient tomato sauce recipe that allows you to make your own tomato pasta sauce from scratch. I've been doing it for years. It is
A winner. Let me tell you about it. The recipe comes from Marcella Hazan. And the three ingredients are a can of tomatoes, about a stick of butter,
and an onion chopped in half. You put all those things in there, you bring it to a slow boil, you let it cook, add some salt, add some sugar if you feel like it, some pepper. But in about an hour, you have pasta sauce. You take the onion out once you're done doing that, but it's a really good pasta sauce. Oh, you don't even chop up the onion? The onion will live in the sauce to season it. But when it's done, you pull both halves of that onion out.
It's so simple, so easy. Honestly, that sounds like something I could cook, dare I say it. Yeah, and here's the thing. It's so easy because you can start with the base three and salt and pepper to taste, but if you want to get funky, you can begin to add stuff. So what I add now is I add some honey for some sweetness. I add some cayenne and red chili pepper flakes for some heat, and I add a little bit of bacon grease to
To make it savory. I see the vision. And when I want to really take it up a notch at the end, I add some red wine to give it some depth. But all of this began with me just trying the three ingredients to start. I don't cook a lot. I don't cook well. And I don't like recipes that intimidate me. This recipe is so unintimidating because it's just three ingredients and then you do what you do. So that is it. Marcella Hazan's three ingredient tomato sauce recipe. Canned tomatoes,
butter, and onion. We'll have a link in the episode description, but this thing is a winner. I'm into it. Trust me. Okay, perfect for winter too. Zach, what about you? So my rec this week is a new movie that comes out this Friday. It's called Orbit.
by Ava DuVernay. It is... The buzz is big on this one. It's based off the book Cast by Isabel Wilkerson, which was a book I never saw being adapted. It's a very dense, thick 500 pages. I just thought The Warmth of Other Suns, her previous book, would be adapted first. Would become, yeah. That made more sense. But this got it, and it is incredible. I got to see it last night with Ava DuVernay, the director, writer of it. And she gave a talk back, and I...
I walked away so touched by her hustle. She had to go to foundations like Ford Foundation to get the money to make it. Hollywood wasn't willing to pay for this movie. And she's now having to do her own marketing and publicity. She was a publicist before she was a director. So she's doing her PR herself. It's like really incredible for an Oscar nominee and someone who's like such a big deal. However, what I love most about it, why I think you guys will like it a lot is that if you loved Ava's work before,
I now look at all her movies as pieces to a larger puzzle that is origin. It feels like the embodiment of everything she's learned as a filmmaker, as a black woman, as a thinker. And it's a really just stunning portrait of why we live in the world we do and how we're all connected to this thing. Yeah. And hearing her talk about why and how she made the film, I
pretty phenomenal. She's been making the rounds during the award season cycle. And I want to say she was on the New Yorker Radio Hour. And she basically laid out, she's like, most filmmakers make a film for the craft, for the art. They want you to feel a thing when you're in there. They want to give you a spectacle. And she's like, I want that. But her larger mission is to have viewers of her films learn something and become better people after they see it.
And so if the mission of that work is such, then it makes perfect sense for her to fund it in different ways. You know, her goal is not blockbuster. Her goal is education.
And that shows in how she financed this film, how she's pushing this film. And it's a breath of fresh air to see someone say, I'm going to be a big name, big deal director, but I'm doing this work for these reasons. And that is okay. I like that. She's mission driven. Yeah, I like that. It's clear if you follow Ava on Instagram, she's been pretty transparent about the challenges she has faced in getting attention to this excellent film. I
I just saw that actor Angelina Jolie hosted an event in support of Origen. And I just think given the challenges, it's like there are no shortage of famous, wealthy people in Hollywood land who could support
a project if they wanted to. And so shout out to Angelina Jolie. Don't just say that. Yes. Saeed, what's your recommendation this week? So excited to be back and excited to share this poem by Danez Smith. It is from their poetry collection titled Homie, which is great. And the title of this poem is, and I was telling you there was a weather theme, I'm Going Back to Minnesota Where Sadness Makes Sense.
And yes, it does open with a line that I feel I'm using to troll Zach and Sam. But, you know, we're going to stay focused because it's also a good poem. I'm going back to Minnesota where sadness makes sense. Oh, California, don't you know the sun is only a god if you learn to starve for him?
I'm bored with the ocean. I stood at the lip of it, dressed in down, praying for snow. I know, I'm strange. Too much light makes me nervous. At least in this land where the trees always bear green. I know something that doesn't die can't be beautiful. Have you ever stood on a frozen lake, California?
The sun above you, the snow and stalled sea, a field of mirror, all demanding to be the sun too. Everything around you is light, and it's gorgeous. And if you stay too long, it will kill you. And it's so sad, you know? You're the only warm thing for miles, and the only thing that can't shine.
That poem is I'm going back to Minnesota where sadness makes sense by the icon, the legend, Danez Smith. I love that poem. That was powerful. That was beautiful. And also suck it, California. They're green trees and nice weather. America is a mess out here. Everywhere else right now in America, it's a mess. First of all, I love the poem. Second of all, I have the urge now to drive to Venice Beach.
take on my shoes walk on the sand get right to the lip of the ocean and yell out the first line of this poem oh california don't you know the sun is only a god if you learn to starve for him like i want to start just yelling that in places around la and see what people say i love it danelle said la you can have your ozempic and palm trees i'm going to bring her into this
We are a mess. Okay. Friends, and again, shout out to Danez Smith, just a wonderful person. Friends, what are you feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.
There we go.
There we go. Two. Go big. Five. Why live with this? All right. Five. It's a movement. All right. Huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, our engineer, Sam Kiefer, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher,
and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at atsackstaff, at Sam Sanders, and at The Ferocity. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod wherever you can. And with that, stay tuned for a special bonus episode on Tuesday with Court Jefferson. Until then, goodbye, my dears. Bye. Stitcher.
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