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Hello, my ladies, my depleted divas. I am tired but still here. Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you're listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.
Sam Sanders, before we get into all of this, I must say, when you and I got off the same plane at the same time, and I got in my car and went home, and you said you were going to the movies, I thought, there's no way. That's how much I love y'all. That's exactly what every passenger wants to do after the cross-country flight from New York to LAX. To LA, go to a theater. And then I got home. I was in bed, and you texted, just seated, ordered fish and chips to us. And I was like, this girl is out here. I'm like, what?
I cannot. I work. Okay, I'm going to pull out my Sam Sanders dragon card. I'm going to give you two free punches for a free compliment. Alamo Draft House has the fish and chips on their menu. I'm not the only one who orders it. They want you to eat it. I'm not bringing in my own fish. And here's your freebie. I am not going to drag you for eating fish and chips in a goddamn movie theater. I mean...
I'm just giving you your flowers because you did your homework for our episodes today in ways that Saeed and I did not, which is you went and saw the new Bad Boys movie featuring Will Smith and Martin Lawrence. It's the fourth one in the series, and it was a huge blockbuster hit this weekend. We have to talk about why, how, and what that means. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being like one of, if not the biggest blockbuster of the summer, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, it's going to be amazing. And listeners, I know many of you probably were like,
"Mm, bad boys, not my film, don't care." You will wanna listen to this conversation 'cause what we're gonna dive into is much bigger than that movie and speaks to a larger thing happening, which is storytelling and how stories may be covert ways to get you to support things that you say you don't actually wanna support. So more on that later. And then after that conversation, we are finally talking about friendship breakups.
This came up on the road a bunch this morning as we were preparing for this episode. Someone wrote in asking about it. So we said, let's listen to God. We're going to say yes to this. And to be clear, when Zach says on the road, it's because a listener in Boston asked us. Yes. Not because the three of us almost came to blows. No, that was not. We were fine. We were fine. It's people were asking us about it on the road. Yeah.
The girls are going through it, but not us girls. We are fine. We are fine. But before we get into all of that, let's check in. Ladies, how are we feeling? Sam, how are you awake even right now? Yeah, you know, I'm feeling really good emotionally. It was so nice to be on the road with y'all and have some really good quality time with you both.
It was so great to meet listeners and fans in Boston and New York. I missed the live shows last year, so being there this year was just phenomenal. My heart is totally full. But on top of that, as someone who primarily works from home and talks to Zoom cameras and my dogs all day, I had more human interaction in the last four days than I've probably had in the last four to six weeks. So as fun as it was,
I'm a little drained, but in a good way. As y'all alluded to, I got back from my cross-country flight from New York and went right to the movies to watch the new Bad Boys for this chat today. So I'm really, really extra ready for a nap as soon as we tape.
So the vibe is tired but happy, and I really can't complain. Our listeners are just top-notch. It was so delightful to not just be able to talk to them at these shows, but then hang with them after both shows. Y'all left a little earlier than I did, but...
But me and Ira Madison closed down that after party with a few listeners. Just kiki. Oh, wow. I mean, because I felt like I left around midnight or so. We were there for another like 45 minutes. Wow. Just talking with listeners. It was so delightful. So I really hope that those who couldn't make those shows...
can find the chance to come see us in LA because it's quite delightful. And listeners, for those of you who weren't able to make either of the live shows we had this past week, you can check out the fun in next week's episode because we'll be sharing a part of those live shows with y'all right there.
That's amazing. And for those that don't know, Ira is the host of Keep It on Crooked. And we've all guest hosted that show. And he's a longtime friend and colleague. We've all worked together, been in the same spaces for years. So it was amazing to see him there at the show. That was such nice support. Yeah, it was wonderful.
Saeed, how are you doing? Because you look fresh as a daisy, honey. You can tell that you have not gotten on a plane. You are living your truth, your life. And no needle or scalpel has touched this visage, baby. Okay? This is coming to you live from Carol Jean Sweet Jones. Yes. I feel good. I feel bright. Gosh.
What an honor for us to be able to celebrate our friendship in this way and to celebrate it with other people. And, you know, the live shows are good for the podcast, you know, practically speaking, everybody's got bills to pay. Let's not lie. But also, I think it's good for us.
us to spend time together and to be on the road and to meet fans. We met so many cool people, many of whom came to live shows last year. So it also becomes like a literal kind of check-in. How are you doing? Oh my gosh, it's so good to see you and your partner again. Oh, you brought your... That's really good. But I have to admit, I think it is time for me to acknowledge a vibe that I've kind of been avoiding, which is...
I don't know if you remember this and I don't know if you felt the same way, but I remember having a lot of fun in the summer of 2016. Before the election. I went to see the formation tour here in New York City, had a great time, a lot of wonderful music.
was out, we were living, and it was like, obviously, you know, the news headlines, Trump, Hillary, all of that was going on, and I don't think it's disconnected. I think it was in response to kind of the systemic political chaos craziness. It was like the vibes were like, well, let's really dance. Let's really go out having so much fun. And so that's kind of the week I've been having. And then it's like you're waiting for a drink at the after party, and you check your phone for a second, and you're like,
Like Samuel Alito's wife said, what? Hunter Biden guilty. Where? You know, like it's like all of these different little signals that remind you that we have our reality, but we also have our shared national reality. And it's just going to keep getting more and more real. And I remember that summer of 2016. And a lot of folks will say, oh, yeah, that summer felt really fun and out there. We were having fun before everything changed when Trump won. But I remember that.
during that brief few months before the election. It was a nasty election. It was really rough, but everyone thought it was just a game because most of the country assumed that he would lose. And something's weird about this summer. I think in the same way people want to not focus on the politics too much because it's wild. But I think people in the back of their heads think he's going to win. And so it makes for a different kind of feel. You know, it's a weird time, to say the least.
I mean, just as an example, in the summer of 2016, I was an executive editor of Culture at BuzzFeed News. In July of 2016, so basically a month from now, there was a meeting where they were talking about security concerns for journalists, you know, moving towards the election and this and that and if Hillary wins or not.
And we had this whole 45-minute meeting, and no one brought up or addressed the implications of like what if Trump wins. He's already talking about fake news and all of these different things. His supporters are very – and people in the room looked at me like I was crazy because I was like, are we not even going to consider? And here we are. There were newsrooms everywhere.
that didn't have a story mocked up for Trump winning. Wild. And again, I'm aware it's June. November is not tomorrow. But listen, we have more capacity than we're often willing to give ourselves credit for. But I do think you have to kind of prepare yourself to embrace that capacity. So, you know, live your life, have your summer, be out on the highways and byways, because I am. But occasionally take some space. Mm-hmm.
To think about November because of course election day is coming toward us. But that's my vibe. Such good advice. Yeah. Zach, what about you? How are you doing, baby?
like Sam, but really grateful. None of y'all get to be as tired as me. None of y'all get to be as tired as me. Sam, that's why I began with acknowledging your level of tiredness because I was like, I feel awful. You must be feeling extra awful and also maybe greasy from the fish. So, you know, I just wanted to honor that truth. Y'all keep hating on this goddamn fish. Fuck.
Anyway, but beyond all of those feelings, I loved Boston. I loved New York. I could regale you all with all the personal stories that I gathered from this trip. But I, similar to Said, I'm just grateful we get the time to meet folks, to get feedback. One piece of feedback I got from someone at an after party was,
They love our live shows because it helps the brain process that our voices are all different. Because sometimes we may sound similar, which is funny. You get so many notes of people thinking that you and I are the same person. I know. People think you and I are the same, which is funny. Wow. But this is my voice. Follow this gay voice. Sam has a different gay voice. So we're distinctly different.
But beyond that, I just want to say thank you to a bunch of friends that stepped up and helped us. You know, we have our teams that work on the show who are incredible and do so much. And then all of the folks at the venues who do so much. But, you know, a bunch of women that I know personally that I work with stepped up and helped us. And those people were my friend Samara in Boston who runs a company called Melly that served beer, quinoa beer to all of our listeners as they were prepping for the show so they could have a delicious drink. It was very chic and delicious. And then in New York,
the Kendall Jenner allowed her company, A18, to provide an after party for us that our Patreon subscribers got invited to privately, which I'm mentioning so that you subscribe to Patreon because you get little tidbits, little treats like that. You get to have tequila with us after a party. But our show is lovely and I love our show so much, but we're not the biggest show in the world, but
brands like 818 or Melly or people just all the people we met that flew in from Tucson coming to support us just means the world. Donna from Tucson. Yeah, Donna from Tucson. So I'm just feeling really grateful for all of those people and people who continue to ride with us and be in the world with us. So thank you all for that. And speaking of that, this Thursday, Sam and I will be on stage together.
if you'd like to see us. And if you're in LA, we'll be at a Strange Loop in Los Angeles at the Amundsen Theater doing a talkback that will be announced as you're listening to this as a fun surprise for everyone. So Sam and I will sleep. We'll be prepared to be back on stage in front of, I think it's 1,200 people, Sam. So be ready. I better sleep. Y'all better- Take a nap today, baby. Send the drugs to the house. She needs to sleep.
All right. And again, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail over the last week. In fact, a piece of one of your fan mail arrived this morning and we decided to make it our secondment. So look at God, look at us. You get results sometimes. And also a special shout out to those of you who subscribe to our Patreon. If you want to join the group chat, you can find us at patreon.com slash fanmail.
Vibe check. It's always great to keep the conversation going there. We also got to see quite a few of our Patreon users in person in Boston and New York. Love that. But for now, let's jump in. Let's go, bad girls. Oh, we're bad girls. Oh, we're the bad girls.
All right, from one bad girl to two others, let's talk about the movies. Listeners, y'all know that we just talked about the summer box office a few weeks ago and how it seems to be faltering as the summer began. But we got to revisit that conversation because things have changed. Our last chat was all about several big flops.
And now we're talking about a movie that did really, really well. Will Smith, of all people, has turned the Hollywood conversation on its head. He and Martin Lawrence released the fourth installment of their Bad Boys movie franchise this weekend. And it made an amazing $56 million in the U.S. alone. The global tally for the entire weekend was over $100 million. Wow.
This is a big boost that the movie industry really needs right now. But it's also a chance to have a conversation about race in the movies and who goes to see them and how policing is portrayed on screen. Because Bad Boys at its core is a franchise that glorifies policing. And some folks call it copaganda. So to start, we got to just kind of recap the film a little bit and tell you what's going on there. I know...
Y'all haven't seen it, but Zach, you watched the first one again yesterday. I did briefly sum up what the franchise is about.
can do. So I saw the first one. It was great. It was a great time. I enjoyed it on the plane. The movie follows two police officers living in Miami, a la Miami Vice, but Black. And these two characters, Will Smith and Martin Lawrence, are two Black men from different parts of town, even, which I forgot about. Will Smith's character is a trust fund kid who's rich and just wants to be a cop because he cares about the world and he drives
An expensive Porsche, has a great house, is a bachelor, is kind of a very desirable figure. Martin Lawrence is a dad of multiple kids, has a wife at home, works too much, and is very much from the block in the community. And these two guys are, you know, just cops on the force that...
come to find out one of their biggest cases that they ever solved, which was a huge dope case. The dope that they retrieved has gone missing and is now back in the streets. And now they all risk losing their jobs in Miami and all being made to look a fool because it's definitely an inside job, which of course they make the two black cops have to solve this for all the mostly white cops who are living in Miami. And that's the movie. Yeah. And so this fourth installment
continues that. Now we have Will and Martin's characters having been partners and buddies and close friends for decades. They're still fighting against corruption in the Miami Police Department. And there's no spoilers by saying this, but they spend the entire film basically trying to catch heads of Miami police and the attorney's office who are tied up
in narco-trafficking. They, of course, saved the day. And it's all a part of a thing that I want to get to a little bit later, the way in which even
Even though this film is calling out police corruption, it is glorifying cops who fix it from the inside, no matter what it takes to get there. That requires some unpacking. I did want to ask you, I mean, because you did, you know, make the great sacrifice to see it. And Martin Lawrence and Will Smith have incredible chemistry. I mean, these two comedians together in action, I mean, is really great. I am a fan of the franchise, but...
And even knowing it's very complicated politics. I just want to ask you, how did you feel? Did you laugh? It was an exercise in double consciousness. Okay, that's real. Will Smith, lest we forget, is one of the most charismatic and captivating leading men in Hollywood history. And when he's doing his job the right way, it's so much fun.
Him and Martin Lawrence are in the pocket. They know their roles distinctly and perfectly. And their moments of specific comedic banter and riffing, just the two of them, are truly magical. But aside from that, the amount of gun violence in this film is astronomical. There are some scenes that play out as the visuals of like,
a first-person shooter game. So you just see a gun moving and shooting. It is so violent. And it's just glorifying policing. It is glorifying policing the entire film and allowing these two cops, played by Will and Martin, to do whatever the hell they want to get what they think is justice. They kill so many people just to do the right thing. I mean, all cop films do this, but wow, it was on full display with this movie.
I have to say, something that comes up in the first movie is there's a scene in which they start fleeing from the bad guys, and the damsel in distress says, "Why are you running from the police? You were the cops?" Which was such a striking comment to make about these two. - What a line. - It was such a line because it was like, it kind of shows the complications in these two characters. They're police officers, but they're Black men trying to do the right thing, and the system isn't on their side. And that feels like a metaphor that they're trying to sell us. - It's funny.
You saying that because, you know, post George Floyd, post Black Lives Matter, these cop films with black leads, they have to at least in a little bit address race. The one time the word racist is used is when Martin Lawrence is calling a 16 foot long albino alligator that almost kills him racist.
The only thing called racist in this movie is the albino alligator. I kid y'all not. That's very funny. But also significantly, the first action scene in the first Bad Boys movie, I believe, is in the Everglades. So there might have been some alligators in that scene too. And they disrupt and break down some drug-dealing Klansmen.
Like a Klan rally. Yes, there's some racist whites in this one too. Yeah, they continue that bit. So I want to get more into the race of it all and the police of it all. But I do want to point out a really interesting data point that says a lot about what Hollywood gets wrong and what it could get right. The vast majority of viewers for Bad Boys 4 this past weekend were Black and Latino viewers.
And it turns out the data shows that the movies that do the best box office wise are the ones that can appeal to black and brown people and ones that showcase and feature black and brown people. About 44 percent of the bad boys audience was black. Twenty six percent of the audience was Latino. And it seems like this is a sign to Hollywood. Y'all want to get your mojo back.
Stop making movies that rely so much on white leads. You know, my favorite fun fact about all of this is that the community and demographic in America that goes to see the movies the most per capita, Latino people. They go to the movies more than anyone else, yet they are the least likely to see themselves and lead roles on
on screen. It's wild. And, you know, there are many reasons why this franchise is so successful and continues to be. But I also want to acknowledge that I think it's still fairly unusual or maybe even more unusual than it used to be in the 80s and 90s to see black leads in a very expensive, big budget franchise
action movie. Part of what's going on here in terms of the issues of copaganda and where it gets really confusing is I think cops exist in our contemporary American cinematic mythos as an extension of the cowboy.
They are an extension of Bass Reeves, the Lone Ranger, all of those characters of the Wild West where everything is kind of lawless. And so a character like a sheriff, right, the enforcer of law and order comes in, is like one of our first real action heroes in American cinema. And so we go from them to this era where we have either cops or another type of cop, a superhero. Captain Marvel? No.
Also a cop, right? So I think it's also still unusual to see black people being anointed, even if it is, you know, like a bloody crown, quite frankly, to be anointed in this way as this type of hero. And what's so crazy, it's like, it's still so rare to see it, but whenever it happens, it's box office gold. You'll recall Eddie Murphy made how many versions of the Beverly Hills Cop and they all were hits. Yeah.
It is wild. Lethal Weapon with Danny Glover and that other guy. Even Black Panther, you know, he is a cop. Cop, one of the biggest Marvel films of all time. Yeah, yeah. So, like, it's really weird to celebrate the success of this movie because on the one hand, it proves a point when you support people of color and put them on screen. People of color who go to the movies more will go support these films. But also, I really hate...
that this movie, which was a success for these two black men and viewers of color, I hate that it was pretty much copaganda. But I think we should first just try to describe and define that word because we've used it now and haven't really defined it.
I'm going to start from like a reporter standpoint, then Saeed, I want you to jump in from a cultural standpoint. So, propaganda works on like a lot of levels here. So, the way in which I experienced it as someone that worked a lot with police departments and doing police reporting and crime reporting is that the propaganda you consume every day is the nightly news and has been for a long time. So, police officers and police departments and their PR teams plant stories and always create this dynamic in which police are always right, they're always the heroes, and that
anyone that's accused of a crime is wrong. And the media you see built around it has to reinforce that dynamic, this very like didactic way of thinking of people. And the whole purpose of this from a news standpoint is to make it to where like you never ever question cops so that when budgets increase or anything happens, you're just like, yes, they deserve it. They're so under attack. They're dealing with so much, which plays into the cultural part, which Said, I'd love to throw to you on how it's represented and other things.
Sure. In terms of, you know, TV and cinema, I think, you know, a really important aspect of Copaganda is the show Cops, which is also relevant because that's where we get the title Bad Boys for this franchise. Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do? So Cops, this incredibly popular, I think there are still contemporary iterations of it.
Right. Yeah. On streaming. Yeah. But, you know, it was the show that kind of kind of a predecessor to kind of like the video gamification of so much right where we would just watch cops, you know, chase down bad guys. We had no context. We didn't know if these people were guilty or not. You know, it was just literally seeing the chase through alleyways and everywhere. So, yeah, to to Zach's point.
It is media narratives, usually TV shows and films, that exist to sometimes explicitly but often implicitly work to, yes, build up the idea that cops are inherently heroic and to build empathy. Another example would be like
And all of the many, many law and order shows, you know, the cops are the inherent stable part of the narrative. The suspects, the witnesses come and go, but we're always there with, you know, Chris Maloney and Mariska Hargitay.
And it's really interesting to think about all the ways in which folks you never would assume would be tied to this type of media are. One of the longest serving TV cops in modern history is Ice-T, the same rapper who made the song Cop Killer decades ago. We see so many black actors specifically playing law enforcement on TV, in the movies, even folks like Angela Bassett.
And what is so interesting about it all is like we talk about cops, we talk about these movies. One could even argue that children's films like Zootopia and children's shows like Paw Patrol. Oh my God, that record was an awful cop in particular. Like if you step back, like I actually can't rewatch Zootopia because, and this is something I want to acknowledge.
I think the politics of a movie like Zootopia in terms of policing are actually way worse than Bad Boys 4, right? Because it's this idea that some types of animals are inherently violent. That is the whole concept of Zootopia, which is really, really messed up.
It seems like at least in Bad Boys 4, I didn't want to talk about, you know, I think copaganda is, you know, kind of a large umbrella concept and there are different types of nuances. And it sounds like, not to say that this is maybe on the same level in terms of writing and
art as a show like The Wire. But I also want to say, I do think it is certainly possible to have types of art and media about policing that aren't necessarily glorifying it. And it sounds like Bad Boys is maybe trying to have it both ways, right? They're fighting the system, but they still want to have their big set, you know, action pieces. And the thing that I found the most disturbing of the movie, and I enjoyed the movie overall, but what always bugs me about these films is...
even when they portray leads who are cops who want to fix the corruption and fight the corruption on their way to fixing the corruption they kill dozens of innocent bystanders they destroy large swaths of cities they wreak havoc and destroy infrastructure and everyone's like oh it's okay because they ultimately got that one or two or three bad guys this is what i think
a lot more shows that want to depict it the right way need to acknowledge. The collateral damage is still collateral damage. It feels very similar to when you'll have these Marvel movies where the superheroes are like, we saved the city, but in the process, you destroyed the whole city. I'm tired of that.
Yeah, and we're seeing an emergence of that type of content that pushes back on these hero-villain dynamics. A show that is coming back this week that I love. It's very gruesome. I've talked about it before. It's the show The Boys on Amazon Prime. And it shows the heroes, the superheroes, are the villains, actually.
And it shows a lot of the fallout of their chaos. All the fallout and how complicated it is. And, you know, shows like The Boys or The Wire, I wouldn't put under copaganda because they don't follow that basic structure of storytelling of cop is always right. That person's always a villain. You never, you know, interrogate the accused because that's where it gets dangerous. And even films like Top Gun Maverick that came out
I found that to be propaganda for the U.S. government. We never know the villain of it. It's like some nameless country and we're just using all the brightest U.S. military to defend against what? And it could be Russia, China, whatever, but it doesn't matter. Just U.S. government is dominant. What I will say about
movies like Bad Boys and Bad Boys 4 in particular is, you know, maybe like copaganda is certainly part of it, but I actually think the most dangerous part of these types of action vigilante shoot-em-up movies is that most policing is actually very boring, right? That's an example why The Wire was very good. They spent an entire season just trying to get burner phones, you know what I mean? Like, it's actually like a lot of minutiae, but the violent fantasy...
of being the vigilante who's going to kick down the door and da-da-da, you know, manifest in real people's lives. And I can't remember the city this took place in, but recently two, I believe they were black teenagers, were returning a BB gun to a sporting goods store. And another customer was like in his truck, saw them,
He says he thought they were about to walk into the sporting goods store with a gun and hurt people. And so he jumps out of his truck and shoots and kills at least one of the teenagers, right? So the idea that it's like, I'm going to fight the system and I'll be the hero. I've got my own gun. That's actually what scares me the most. And this is the thing.
I don't think any of us are saying stop watching movies with cops in them. Stop watching movies with guns in them. But I do want to be able to watch and know that other folks can watch this
with kind of two minds. Watch it for fun, but also look at how it is reinforcing certain parts of our culture. I think a lot of these movies, especially just with like so many guns everywhere shooting so many times, they normalize moving to guns to resolve conflict a lot sooner than like doing anything else. And,
And I worry about that. Like, I don't think most people will go into a movie like Bad Boys 4 and say, well, they use guns to solve problems. I should too. But a small fraction might. And a small fraction of viewers who are just a little bit more unstable and not in the right place. Or just young people. Those messages can have an effect. Those messages have an effect. And so I am not at all about censorship. But.
But I do hope that we like can look at these kind of things with like two sets of eyes, if that makes sense. And also the context in which it's being released. You know, death by police shootings has only increased year over year since we have been talking about it, marching on.
since Ferguson. So, you know, there is budgets are up post George Floyd. It's all up. So it's interesting. You have to think like, why is this piece of culture being produced? And in what environment is it being released? And how does it help us not pay attention to certain sinister things underlying it? And I would say the fact that cops are more powerful than ever, actually. And that's what this movie really punctuates for us in finding it. Entertaining is complicated and that's okay. Totally. It's all complicated. I will say though,
as we wrap for any Hollywood types listening to this,
keep making movies with black and brown people. There's a really great study from UCLA. It's their annual Hollywood diversity report. Besides bad boys doing well across the board all the time, franchises like Creed and Scream and John Wick saw bigger box office returns when the cast of these films got more diverse with each new film. It ain't rocket science, y'all. Anywho, listeners, let us know if you saw bad boys. Uh, let me know what you ate in the movie theater. Uh,
And how you deal with propaganda. We're going to take a break. And coming up, friendship breakups.
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I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors
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All right, my loves, we are back. And as it happens, we were already planning on talking about why friendship breakups in particular can be so difficult compared even to romantic breakups. And then this very morning, we're like all on our way to the studio to record. One of you emailed us asking for advice on how to confront a difficult friend. So we, you know, Sam was like, maybe we just use this letter. This just feels...
You know, just perfect timing. So here's a bit of what you wrote. "I am currently trying to navigate my own changing relationship with a close friend. This is a college friend who is snarly but loves deeply and is a fierce friend that I have been grateful to have in my life for 10 years now. However, I found the need to distance myself from him last year. When I got engaged to the love of my life, the snarliness became a little too real, especially on a vacation we took together.
Okay.
I'm at the point of feeling like I need to say something, but I want to be as charitable as possible. He's been going through a hard time in the past two years. He grew up in a conservative small town and is still working on loving himself as an out gay man. His mother also passed away when he was young, so I think the two women in his life, me and his other best friend getting married in a close time, has made him get into this mental space he is currently in.
How can I be a supportive friend to someone who is depressive and in an angry space, but also ask for respect and grace in return without cutting them out? Or should I give him more space and time for him to grieve the dynamics and not make this about myself?
A very graceful, nuanced letter. A lot of empathy there. What are your initial thoughts, y'all? I love that this person, I say I love, but it also could be a lot of feelings. But I can tell in this letter that you are writing to us because you want to make it work. So I want to answer this from a place of wanting to make it work.
I think that's absolutely on point. Because I've been in this situation before and I'll share later, but I was in a similar dynamic of the friend getting meaner and meaner and meaner because things in my life were becoming more positive in their eyes. And I did not want to make it work. We can talk about that and how you navigate that. But with this...
It doesn't like this person does need to work through their own things that they are potentially projecting onto you. I mean, my therapist told me this once and I share it all the time on this show and at the live shows. And that is, I am not that important. And in this situation, you are important to this person. But the
underlying issues they seem to be dealing with around abandonment, people maybe forgetting them or them not being able to have the love or happiness that you may be gaining right now. It has everything to do with them and their own histories and things that they need to work through.
I think you can have a conversation that's very much one that begins with I. I feel that you are not nice to me. I feel that you're not being supportive. And that's a great thing to share and let them respond however they need to respond. And then once you have that information, you can move through the relationship however it makes you feel good. But what you should be doing right now is you're getting married. Take care of you. Take care of this. Build a friendship and space that makes you feel supportive.
as you enter this new chapter that I think is just so exciting for you. And you know what? Sometimes friends are like seasons and we'll talk about that too. And maybe this isn't the season for this friendship. Yeah. Sam? I always love when an advice letter kind of answers its own question. I think I've said before on this show that usually the answer for an advice query is
is for the person who wrote the letter to read that letter to the person they're talking about. There's a specific line towards the end of this note that could probably be reworded into a really good conversation starter with this friend. There's a question they have towards the end. How can I be a supportive friend to someone who is in a depressive and angry space, but also ask for respect and grace in return without cutting them out?
What if we turn that question around and use that to start a conversation with this friend who's behaving badly right now? What if you could say to them, hey, dear friend, I know you're going through a lot and I want to be supportive. It feels like you're in a depressive and angry space right now. And that's allowed. But I also need some respect and grace from you right now in this really difficult time because I don't want to cut you out of my life.
What if that's the way to start the conversation? I feel like a lot of times when people are asking for advice, they're asking for a way to start a difficult conversation. And what if that could be it? Secondly, I would say...
You know, if you're thinking about a friendship breakup or not, know that there are gradations and levels to it. Not everything has to be absolute. Sometimes you need a break. Sometimes you just need less of them. Not everything has to be final. And so knowing that might help you enter this entire conversation, not being so worried. Because there's a good chance that you have this conversation and it gets better. It doesn't get, you know, ended. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm not exactly sure about the timeline. Like, I can't tell if the wedding is still coming up in the future or if it's already happened. But I do want to acknowledge that a wedding is ideally a once-in-a-lifetime event. It's very special. And so that does kind of put a unique pressure on certain circumstance, right? But yeah, absolutely. You know, there are different ways to navigate. I guess what I would add
Two things. One, you know, another tactic. We're giving you different options, which makes sense because there are so many nuances here. Sometimes I have found it is helpful, especially with close friends. You know, Zach and I at this point have celebrated 10 years of friendship. And it is such a privilege to be a part of someone's life for that long. Like, wow, you know. And I think sometimes when you're a part of someone's life for that long, you know them so well that you do develop
Kind of like an emotional muscle memory that often can work but can sometimes be dysfunctional because I think you can take things for granted and run on some assumptions. We change over those 10 years. So sometimes I think it's helpful to say, listen, this wedding is coming up and I've never done this before. It's a lot of work. It's obviously really important to me. I need you to be a little more gentle with me.
I need, I really need you, my friend of 10 years. I get it. You know, we love to kiki. We love to get our little bars. But right now I'm a little tender, actually. I'm a little, ooh. And so could you just be a little more gentle with me to help me? You know what I mean? Like sometimes I think even before we get to the, because I don't want to cut you. The moment I hear because I don't want to cut you off, it goes to a different place. But I think it's like just sincerely and earnestly expressing what you directly need from them and giving them that chance could help.
And both you and Zach get to a really good and smart tactic that can make the other person feel less defensive. I statements, not you statements. I feel really stressed. I'm in a weird place. This is a weird time for me.
When you start it that way and say it that way, it doesn't feel like you're pointing the finger at this friend. You can still express what you want to express, but if you can use more I statements than you statements, it usually goes down easier. And you may be, you know, depending on how you finesse it. And listen, I loved an important conversation. Practice it in the mirror. Record it as a voice memo and listen to yourself. See how you feel, you know. But it also means you might be able to avoid having to litigate
some of the examples because I find that's the other thing about these difficult long conversations. You do not want to turn it into an argument where you're talking about, well, in five years ago. Yeah, so if you can just focus on this specific thing is coming up and I need support from you. This is your friend of 10 years. I think I hope that he will hear that and go, oh my gosh, of course, of course. Yeah.
I did want to kind of open this up. And Zach was so keen. I think you're absolutely right. This person does not want to break up with their friend. This person is like, how do we break through together? And I love that. But all three of us have had significant friendship breakups. I've had two exes.
in the last five years that I will tell you listeners took, you know, in some cases a year or a couple of years for me to really get to a better place on. So I was wondering if we could kind of share some experiences and I'll just say quickly, yeah, one of my close, close friends, you know, that I ultimately had to break things off. The tension was like Zach said, I realized that when we became close friends, we were both very stressed and unhappy.
And it was so helpful for us to be able to hold on to each other, you know, as we kind of face the world and the rough waters. But as my life started to change and the water started to smooth out, my
My friend didn't feel the same way. And so every time I, and it was strange, it would get to the point that like even sharing a funny meme or a picture of a cute guy on Instagram, this friend's response was just reflexively negative. It was bizarre. I could be like, the sky is blue. And he'd be like, but it's raining somewhere. And I was like, what's going on? And I held onto the friendship for so long because I was so grateful at that point in my mid twenties in particular to be close friends with another black guy.
black queer person that had been something I've been working toward for a long time and I think I held on longer than I needed to but look at all the abundance in my life now what about you two?
I mean, for me, very similar situation, Saeed. And one friendship that I'll share here, it started when I was in sixth grade, was one of the first people that really saw me as me was a cisgender queer woman who came out later in life. But we were quick friends and she was my biggest defender with bullies and everything in life. And she was so beautiful that I did that thing. And the live show episode, maybe you'll hear me talk about it. But I have a habit when I was younger to shield myself with beautiful women because I felt like...
Bullies wouldn't attack me if I was friends with all the most beautiful women. But anyway, this friend and I were friends for so many years. And when we got later into our 20s, the friendship was really fraying because my life was seeing a lot of abundance at the time and her life wasn't in the ways that she wanted. And then animosity, anger began being projected onto me similar to you, Saeed, where this friend is going through their own thing where they're feeling a lack
And I was not. And because we weren't meeting with the same energy, there felt to be a tension there. And there was a huge tension there. And eventually got to a breaking point where every interaction was so awful. I left feeling awful about myself. I just got a new job. And I was reconsidered taking the job because this friend wasn't being supportive. And I was like, I got to let go. This friendship is no longer serving me. And I broke free of it.
and a move helped with that breaking free. And I was really happy with that choice for many years. And we didn't speak. And I lost some friends that were connected to her. And I was really close with her family. And then last year, this friend passed away, sadly. And I've never felt...
the grief that I've felt for the past year even and I've been working through it and talking to so many people you two especially about this and it was very complicated to have a friend that you have broken up with that is a lifelong friend and then they pass away because we think of friendships as infinite as forever being there and when we let go of these big friendships we feel a grief a guilt
ashamed about letting it go because you failed. And we treat them differently than romantic relationships where we kind of expect them to end. There's kind of like an eroticness to it that they could end, that this person could leave you. And there's a whole cultural, pop culture infrastructure around romantic breakups. There's a song, a movie, a TV show for every flavor of breakup. But not for friendship breakups. Not friendships. And then there's also not a
anything for me to look to when that friend that you have broken up with passes away? And what I've learned through this, through the letting go of big friendships that no longer serve me in my life, is that I can still celebrate the goodness that was in that friendship. That the moments that we had where they made me the person I am today and helped
me through some really hard situations. Those still matter and they're still our mind to hold and ours to hold together. But we don't have to keep making those memories forever and ever. We can part ways and maybe one day come back. So that's where I stand with this. Friendships are seasonal sometimes and people will come and go, but those memories always stay. Yeah, I love that.
I approach friendship breakups kind of of two minds because I've had a really big friendship breakup and then also had to like kind of sever ties with the guy I was kind of seeing because of these other people being in a mental health crisis that I could not help them resolve from where I was at the time.
So I think a lot of times the energy in the air is practice radical honesty. Be open and honest about why you're ending things and tell them everything. Lay it out there. I think sometimes the kindest thing
is to not tell people everything and not tell them why you dislike them now and not tell them why you're done with them. Because some people, when they're exhibiting behavior that makes you end the friendship, it is a sign that they're in mental health crisis. And the last thing they need to hear is a laundry list of what you've done wrong to them.
So I really do believe that sometimes restraint and withholding of some words and some terms and some conversations can be a kindness. Saeed, you shared an article this morning in which Michelle Obama talks to Oprah about she slow ghosted some friends when her and Barack reached the White House. So it didn't say I'm done with you, didn't say we're never talking to you again, but just kind of gently faded away.
out of their lives for reasons that she knew and talked about with Oprah. We oftentimes say that ghosting is just the worst thing to do. It's the worst thing to do. And I just want to say in my life specifically, sometimes that or just saying directly and completely, I cannot talk to you. Sometimes that is the kindness. I don't ever want to be someone who ends things with a friend or has a difficult conversation with a friend
Who is in crisis and who might spiral even more because of my words. So I always keep that in mind, too. Yeah. And, you know, and sometimes you can just say maybe you're used to hanging out every couple of weeks and then you go, oh, gosh, next few months are going to be pretty crazy. Can we can we meet back up in August?
Let's put something on the date for dinner in August, you know, and then you see each other in August and then in August, you know, you're like, oh, so what do you what do you want plans for in October? You're still being proactive. You're still indicating that you want to be a part of this person's life, but you're using scheduling to literally put in just a little bit more breathing room.
To close, I just wanted to share, you know, I was raised practicing Nichiren Buddhism. And in the 12th century, Nichiren Daishonin, he would usually write letters to his disciples. And those kind of became the core text for Nichiren Buddhism. He wrote, you should fear bad friends more than you would fear a mad elephant. Because a mad elephant essentially can only kill you. A bad friend can lead you away from enlightenment. Right.
And I always thought that was so interesting because I think part of what he's saying is take friendship seriously. You know what I mean? So I think part of the reason all of this is really difficult is because our culture doesn't really remind us to take friendship seriously. But of course, it is just as rich and complicated and varied as any other family or a romantic relationship. And so, of course, those breakups and difficult conversations can be intense. Mm-hmm.
Well, we will leave it there. Listener, thank you for your nuanced question. And the three of us are sending you grace. And to all of you, I mean, because again, someone else in Boston was also kind of asking about going through these choppy waters. So the girls are going through it, but we'll go through it together. All right, we'll be back after the break with some recommendations.
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This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.
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at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. Listeners, we are back. And before we end the show, we'd each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week.
And to begin, I want to throw to Sista Sanders to hear what she recommends for us. In the spirit of our conversation about bad boys and copaganda and the way that policing is just infused all over our culture, I want to recommend a really good podcast series that talks about the entire history of the reality show Cops and how it really changed America's relationship with policing. This podcast is called Running From Cops.
It is by the podcaster Dan Taberski. It's from Pineapple Street Media. It's only six episodes, and it's really great. This show, Cops, we kind of forget about it now, but when it came out, it changed everything. It changed the way reality TV worked. It changed the way Americans look at policing, and it changed what police are able to get away with. Mm-hmm.
because that show normalized police officers doing any and everything to civilians. That was often like the climax of an episode was them like tackling somebody up and you see it, right? And they always justified it because, well, that's a junkie. That's a criminal. It's okay, but it
normalized a bunch of behavior. I found the show really fascinating. I binged it on a long road trip a few years ago. It is a heavy listen, obviously, but if you want to know more about the pervasiveness of copaganda, I cannot recommend this podcast enough. It is called Running From Cops.
Six episodes. It's such a good series too. And also it brought back memories, you bringing this up, of being a kid. And I remember people watching the show to see if they knew someone that was in the accused or the criminal. Oh, wow. It took me a minute to process that. This culture of surveillance. And it's also after that came the taxicab confessions. But there was this era of reality TV where it was like, at any moment, you may be put into a situation. Totally. Yeah.
I'll do my recommendations because I want to end with Saeed's because I know what he's going to do and I'm very, very excited. But to be the bridge, since Sam chose something from one segment, I'll do the next segment. And mine is a new company that just launched. It's called Brown Skin Bride. My dear friend Perry...
who I think you both have met. She was at the after party. I'm sorry, the after party. She was at the after party. Her and her best friend, Alyssa, who I'm friends with, both launched this company. And it is a response to being Black women and feeling like there was nothing that represented you when you were getting engaged or trying to celebrate your friend who's engaged. And this is true. Like most bridal material, like the cups, the crowns, everything are all done in white people's flesh tones. There are no Black people's tones. The couples that are supposed to go on top
of the cake. Yeah, so black brides have a hard time finding things when they are getting married that represent their love. So my friends at this company called brownskinbride.com has created a bunch of merchandise and options for all of the brown skin brides to make sure that they feel seen and loved during their weddings from the bachelorette parties to the wedding day itself. So, and I'm just...
very proud of my friends for doing this. I'm always, my friends when they launch companies, I come running to this podcast and be like, this friend has this, you should support it. So we should be supporting our friends who are like, kind of saying like, screw corporations, I'm going to do my own thing. So I'm proud of these girls for doing it. And the products are amazing. So bravo.
Listen, I am always here for Black girls doing it for themselves. Yes. Amen. All right. To end, speaking of Black girls doing it for themselves, Saeed Jones. Please. Please share with us your recommendation. I am so excited to read this poem. This poem is truly dear to my heart. It's by Nikki Giovanni. She wrote it in 1968 as part of the Black arts movement that included people like June Jordan, Amiri Baraka, for example.
And two things. This poem, I love it so much. I actually had my Aunt Janet, who I mentioned now and then. She's very important to me. She was my mom's best friend. I asked her to read this poem at my mom's funeral, and it was very beautiful. And then by chance, a year later, I was at a writing retreat and got to meet Nikki Giovanni in person and express my appreciation specifically in terms of that. So it means a lot.
And then at one point in this poem, in terms of words, she does something very slick. She mentions Noah and she says, my son built Newark. Newark, New Jersey. I just love it. I love us. Okay, here we go. And this is, I think, a poem that really helps clarify the relationship between hip hop and poetry, which I often talk about. Ego Tripping, There May Be a Reason Why by Nikki Giovanni. I was born in the Congo.
I walked to the fertile crescent and built the Sphinx. I designed a pyramid so tough that a star that only glows every 100 years falls into the center, giving perfect, divine light. I'm bad. I sat on the throne drinking nectar with Allah. I got hot and sent an ice age to Europe to cool my thirst. My oldest daughter is Nefertiti. The tears from my birth pains created the Nile. I...
I am a beautiful woman. I gazed on the forest and burned out the Sahara desert. With a packet of goat's meat and a change of clothes, I crossed it in two hours. I am a gazelle, so swift, so swift, you can't catch me. For a birthday present when he was three, I gave my son Hannibal an elephant. He gave me Rome for Mother's Day. My strength flows ever on.
My son Noah built Newark, and I stood proudly at the helm as we sailed on a soft summer day.
I turned myself into myself and was Jesus. Men intone my loving name. All praises, all praises. I am the one who would save. I sew diamonds in my backyard. My bowels deliver uranium. Filings from my fingernails are semi-precious jewels. On a trip north, I caught a cold and blew my nose, giving oil to the Arab world. I am so hip.
Even my errors are correct. I sailed west to reach east and had to round off the earth as I went. The hair from my head thinned and gold was laid across three continents. I am so perfect, so divine, so ethereal, so surreal. I cannot be comprehended except by my permission. I mean, I can fly like a bird in the sky.
That's ego tripping. There may be a reason why. Truly a legendary poem by Nikki Giappone. It's so good. I'm so obsessed. I just realized when you were reading this, I've heard Nikki recite this poem. Yeah, yeah. At a conference I went to in undergrad, she was the keynote speaker. Wow. So she talked to all the students, but she opened with this, she had to open or close with this poem. And I knew that I had heard it before in the room was when you got to the line
I turned myself into myself and it was Jesus. When I heard Insider say that, I jumped out of my fucking seat. It's incredible. I love this poem. I'm so hip. Even my errors are correct. I mean, come on. And if you are feeling excited about hearing Nikki Giovanni and you've never heard her in
name before, run over to Max. There's an amazing documentary about her, a contemporary documentary made a few years ago. It is a beautiful film. It's her and her wife, who's also an artist. And it's just, you should watch it. It's incredible. She's amazing. Thank you, Sight, for that. That has made my day.
Yeah. One more Nikki Giovanni thing. And this one also gives me chills. You know, she has been long term faculty at Virginia Tech. Yes. A school that experienced a major mass shooting several years ago. She delivered an original poem in front of the student body as that school mourned.
That video alone is chilling and beautiful. She's just an American treasure. She's an American treasure, and we are very lucky to still have Nikki Giovanni with us. She's certainly an elder, but she's still with us and writing. And it is such a joy to be able to celebrate people while they are still here. So, yeah, let's celebrate Nikki Giovanni together. Amen.
With that, what are you feeling, listeners? What are you not feeling this week? Are you ego-tripping, listeners? Are you ego-tripping? In the right way. Yeah. Well, check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.
All right, listeners, thank you so much for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast listening platform. Subscribe on Apple Podcast. Leave us a review. And most importantly, tell a friend.
We saw so many new friends of the show after these shows in Boston and New York. So many folks who were like, I made my husband listen and now he likes it. Thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank you for bringing your husbands, your girlfriends, your day friends, your friend friends. We love it. Thank you.
Huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, who keeps the trains running on time. Engineers Rich Garcia and Brendan Burns and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. And special thanks to Abby Aguilar, who's with us in the studio today here in New York. We're luring her away from the Dante's Inferno that is Los Angeles. Special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brendan Sharp from Agenda. And shout out to our beloved Aisha Ayub, who creates our social content. When you see those memes that make us scream, I scream.
so look forward to Aisha's name in my inbox because I'm like, here we go. Let's see what she came up with. That's all to her. It really is. It really is. And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Keep in touch with us on Instagram, on our new page at vibecheck underscore pod and our Patreon, where for $5 a month, you get direct access to our group chat. And that's at patreon.com slash vibecheck. And
And with that, stay tuned for another episode next week. A very special one with Lena Waithe, just to give you a heads up. So tune in then. Stitcher.
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