Hey, Sis: featuring Regina King
48:36 Share

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare. ♪

Greetings, watch women and watch men. And watch them. Watch thems, watch theys. Watchers. Watchers. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford, and you're listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

I am so excited to welcome to Vibe Check for the final installment of Hey Sis, a Vibe Check series. The one, the only superstar from 227 to Watchmen to If Bill Street Could Talk, The Boondocks. I'm talking about Regina Kane. I don't know an actress in this business who has done more stuff well. She's good.

And she has loved us every step of the way. Yeah. She is the preeminent artist in her form. I mean, at the best and only getting better. But also, just throughout her career, Regina King's art is...

has brought such warmth and color to my life. You're right, 227? Really, like, she's nurtured us. She has raised us. Yes, she raised us. Regina King raised us. I love her not just because she shares a name with my mother. I love her not just because she was my maybe favorite interview ever when I was hosting It's Been a Minute. But I love her because she tackles work that we need to see and hear.

We're here to talk to Regina Cain about her new movie. It's a biopic of Shirley Chisholm. It's out this month. And Shirley, for those who don't know, she was the first black woman to get floor votes for president at the Democratic National Convention. And it was a contested convention, which makes the whole story very timely for this year.

But y'all, I'm just so excited about it. And I'm so excited that it wasn't just me doing the interview. My sister Zach was there too. It was us together, which was such a joy to be able to meet an icon to both of us and then have her become...

what I think in my head, our best friend. The homie. The homie. Was like everything. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I don't know. I mean, Zach, we should kind of run down what this conversation covers, but it covers a lot. We talk about the movie and her process of bringing this movie to life. It took her maybe over a decade. She produced it too, and she stars in it. We talk about electoral politics because this movie is all about a black woman running for president. Yeah.

And having to put up a fight at a convention so timely for this year. But we also talked a bit about Regina Kane and grief. She and I have both experienced family loss recently. And we touched on that a bit at the end. This one kind of runs the gamut, huh, Zach? Yeah, it goes every which way you can think, which is deserving because she's been working on this film and this project since President Obama was in office. Yo. Many eras of America.

So she deserved as much breadth and range as we could allow on this show. And what I have to say is Regina, she rose and met the moment with this conversation because she is probably, out of everyone you've heard us speak to in the series, we know the least. She is not our best friend. We do not have deep community with her. Sam was the only one that had met her before. And that was for an hour and a half. And that was an hour and a half. But even when she walked in the room, she had listened to Vibe Check before. There was a kindredness.

And it just was so exciting and amazing. So I think we created a space that I think you guys are going to enjoy a lot. Yeah. I'm so excited to hear this conversation. I just... Yeah, it's so good. And also, you know, a plug for the movie as well. Watch the movie because Shirley's very interesting. But my favorite part of the film is when they get into the ins and outs of how a political...

a political convention at the national level can be contested and go through several rounds of votes, and there's vote bartering and vote trading. It's so interesting. And you're already hearing Democrats like Ezra Klein say we should do the same thing this year with Joe Biden. So it's very timely. It's very timely. It's very inspiring, too, because I'm like, I would love the chaos of a convention. Girl, sign me up. I'm kind of into it. Yeah. And when you watch the movie Shirley, you're like, this is actually...

Kind of fun. I'll say that. Right? Yeah, yeah. So, anywho, without further ado, to end our really fun Hey Sis Vibe Check series, where we're highlighting amazing Black women for Black History Month and Women's History Month, without further ado, I'm so honored to bring y'all this chat with the Regina King. Enjoy. ♪

You know, we start most of our episodes when it's me, Zach, and Saeed by asking each other, what's your vibe? How you doing? We want to start and ask you that first on this rainy L.A. day. On this rainy L.A. day. What's your vibe?

If I am being completely honest, my vibe is the intersection of gratitude and sadness and not bringing anything down. But, you know, my life fully changed a couple of years ago. And it's like I never would have thought that those two things are not mutually exclusive. They are always working in concert, you know, and

And sometimes the gratitude is flowing bigger than the sadness. And a lot of times it's the other way around. But maybe I'll add one more thing to that. Acceptance is my vibe, you know, in accepting that, OK, this is where I am. And this is, yeah. You know, we talk a lot on the show and you saying this made me think of it. We talk a lot about how

Whenever you see scarcity, there's also abundance. They're never exclusive. They're never exclusive. And usually we are existing in modalities of scarcity and abundance at the same time. Absolutely. One part of our life is abundant while the other part feels scarce. And the work is to say...

I'm pretty every day. I'm good every day. Whether this side is acting up or that side is. And it's hard, but you got to do it. But it's real. It's real. It's real. And like, you don't ever get to a point where it's just abundance. No. You don't ever get to a point where it's just gratitude. And I think that's the biggest shock for people who experience any form of success. Mm-hmm.

They win that award that they've been fighting for. And they're like, wait, my other son and I, it should be great. But like, you know, something else happens. My life falls apart privately. My partner leaves me. And they're like, what? This isn't like the movies. I thought it was supposed to be perfect. And that's not life. And that is not life. That is not life. And also, as you mature and as you experience more life, I understand why.

better now what trauma means and how PTSD does not relate to just someone that's been in war or something like that. You know, just like all of those things that you name are traumatic experiences for people. It's like trauma at its core is just

shit that hurts you that you aren't over yet. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. We try to make it some big thing. It's like, did it hurt you? Yeah. Do you still think about it? Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's for experience. It still hurts. The scar is still there. And something else, and I love that we're talking. I know. We just go right in. Let's just go in. But there's an author and writer we talk a lot about in the show. Her name's Christina Sharp. Have you heard of her work? She's an academic. So she's just kind of coming up right now. She's very established in academia but hasn't become like

bell hooks yet. But she's going to be bell hooks. And she has a book called In the Wake. And it pretty much argues that, you know, ever since the slave ships crossed the Atlantic, the wake of those boats, we feel them today as Black Americans today in every part of our life. And what I think is amazing about this metaphor of living in a wake of a boat is what you're talking about is that like you can be living your life and then something that happened 10 years ago is triggered. And that water comes rushing back and you sit in your body and you're like,

I thought I got through that. I thought I got past it. And yet it's touching me. Waves keep waving. Oh, yeah. Waves keep waving. Like fully, fully, fully. You know, even it's interesting because I ran into a girlfriend while I was walking around.

My dog the other day, and I've always said that we have inherited the pain of our ancestors. We may not know it, but things are happening and we don't understand why we're feeling the way we're feeling. But it's...

I really think it's, you know, it's generational. It's in you. And there's a word for it. And she told me and I was like, I knew it. I knew it was a word for it, but I wish that we talk about it more. Because,

that right there crosses all lines, right? That's not a certain culture that feels like that. That's not a certain, yeah, you know? And I think that like, as soon as you start to name it, you can say to yourself, oh my gosh, I'm not crazy. Yeah. I'm not,

crazy. You're going through it too. So I need to go call her and get that term and write it down. It also reminds me of, we've had on the New York Times writer Jenna Wortham to come talk to us about a lot of amazing things. And something that Jenna shared with me once, Jenna told me about how when people are pregnant,

Your baby is also carrying the next generation. That's what all the genetic code is. So as that mother or that person that's pregnant is moving to the world, everything they're experiencing at the next three generations are experiencing there. And I think when I think about that outside of pregnancy, but with everything in my life, it allows me to give people so much grace because they are going through things they can't even name. And that they are the products in both good and bad ways of things that they never decided. And that's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that giving people grace. I think we talked about that word is my favorite word. I really find how much I need to be given grace and how much if I am not in a space where I feel like I am receiving grace or that I can naturally give it, I need to remove myself from that space. There you go. You know. There you go. Yeah.

You never stop growing. You never stop growing. You never stop growing and you don't know what people are going through and we're all going through something. Yeah, we are all going through something. Speaking of going through it, let's talk about Shirley. Yeah. She went through it. She went through it. And also talk about living in the wake. We all live in the wake of this incredible woman. You know, we were talking last night and I was like, it is criminal that most people I would say don't know who Shirley Chisholm is. Yeah.

And she made history.

For me, that word is maverick. Okay. When you talk about doing something under circumstances or during a time when every single thing, every single person,

around you is telling you no. It is not possible. Even the people on your payroll. Even the people on your payroll. This is what she faced. Even the people that love you, your family members. Your husband. Yeah. Your mom, your sister. Are telling you no and can't see...

that you just at least trying is a necessity for the world, you know? So the fact that even with all of that, she never even once thought I shouldn't. I honestly believe she's human. She did think, wow, I'm doing this. What is this? But it never stopped her from moving forward and being the strategist that she

you know, she is. Yeah, she is. Speaking in the presence. Yeah, so you go. But yeah, Maverick is that word for me, you know, just in doing the research on her and just all of the people that, you know, didn't support her was just so wild, you know, and

And I mean, as a maverick, she made history. You know, she was elected to Congress. And I want to say, was it 68? In 68. In Brooklyn. Was she the first black Democratic woman to be in the House? Yes. Yes, she was. Yeah. So she's already a first. She gets up in there. There's a scene in the movie where in one of her first days in the halls of Congress, one of her new colleagues is like, huh, isn't it crazy that you get paid as much as me?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So she's facing that. And then after a few years of dealing with that, she says, I'm going to run for president. In 72. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. To have that experience. Yeah. To have because...

For her, it was less that she was dealing with being a minority because of the color of her skin. It was more because she was a woman. We were just talking about that. Yeah. So most of the grief she received within that political world was because she was a woman, even from some women. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And to read the quote.

I have certainly met much more discrimination in terms of being a woman than being Black in the field of politics. What did you think when you heard that? Did you relate to that as a Black woman that's leading this production, but also blazing trails in Hollywood and above? I'll have to say, fortunately, my personal experience...

I've had massive support from men. Thankfully, that's been my personal experience. Now, I am not naive to what I have seen, you know, in the world and what I've experienced as a woman that's part of the collective of women, you know, but just my individual experience has

major support from men. However, the fact that she said, because I've always, when we're talking about Shirley, I always want to remind people that, you know, yeah, Frederick Douglass ran for presidency. You know. I'm not saying that it didn't count. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That I want to remind, I always find myself reminding people that, and this is prior to us doing the film, right? That

Not only was she the first woman, but the first black person. So I'm always constantly reminding that. And then doing my research, coming across that when I read her book was like,

Oh, wow. So while I keep saying first black person, the big thing that was her biggest hurdle was being a woman. And so it changed my perspective on my approach to trying to embody Shirley the best that I could by just reading that and just like kind of sitting with that in every moment.

move that I made as Shirley, I kind of would, when we, especially when we'd be in certain spaces, I would be thinking about that, that she is... So like the physicality even. Yeah, yeah. Give me an example. Yeah. Give me an example. Well, just watching all of the videos and things with Shirley,

she just stood very erect. I was going to say that. Very, very erect. And I do kind of slouch a bit. So that was... Well, that interaction with the congressman where he's like, you're making 42.5. And she's like, I am making 42.5. It's a power stance. It's a power stance. And so just that, knowing that little bit of information just...

translated in my mind to okay I have to be strong yeah I mean if you look at all of the photos when it comes to fashion I have to look she was dressed oh my god yeah you know never look bad the rings match the hair was her yeah everything yeah and but but all of that was intentional it wasn't just because I'm

Yeah, it was that I can be strong and I can still be feminine. But I have to present an entire package. Well, there's this scene where they're coming back from some campaigning events. And Shirley is, you know, first one off the plane. It's her plane. Yeah. But it's raining. It's raining.

And it's all the men. And there's Shirley with the plastic wrap over the hair. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that was definitely, you know, me and my sister were like... Megan Coates was our wardrobe designer on the film. And...

She and I were talking, and that scene was the scene we came back and did later. Oh, really? Yeah. And earlier on, we were saying that we wanted to put the plastic thing on the head at some point in the film. You got to. You got to. Because Black Book will get it. Yes. And it never happened. And so then when that scene was added in, we were like, it is time for the plastic wrap. Yeah.

And I was like, John, you don't understand or know anything about this. So let us do this. Let your crew know that this is what's happening. If it's going to be a lightened situation, any reflection going to be going on, let Ramsey know now.

Because it's not an option. We're doing the plastic. I mean, when I think about, because it brought me back to my grandmother. You know, every single one of her purses had those fold up plastic, you know, because they fold up to about two inches. And you just keep them in your purse and they snap and you un-snap them and then it

opens like an accordion and you put it on and snap it underneath. Yeah. She did that. She did that. Yeah. Speaking of Shirley and doing that role and preparing for the role, the accent work. Yes. Because I was watching it and I was like, okay, she's Bayesian. But it's like, no, she's Bayesian, but she's also Brooklyn. But she's also DC. Educated lady. Yeah. There were a lot of things that made

made that accent yes yes can you tell us how that came together i have because it's hard i have an amazing dialect coach aaron washington who you know because that's not an easy dialect to capture because you think it's just bayesian it's not just yeah no it's not and so one of the things that was very freeing for me with aaron is that coming into it she said we're not trying to get you to

mimic Shirley or sound exactly like Shirley. We need to come to the intersection of where Shirley and Regina meet and that you are embodying Shirley. So that freed me immediately to not, because I kept getting in my way of trying to do them exactly like Shirley. And there is no Shirley but Shirley. Exactly. And so then...

listening to all of her interviews. You know, we were lucky enough to get all of these archival radio interviews that she had done and listening to them and hearing how her dialect, her own dialect changes. Sometimes it's more Bayesian, sometimes it's more Brooklyn, sometimes it's more proper, but that's exactly. And so in noticing that Aaron,

Aaron got really excited that I recognized that. And she said, and there's your freedom there. That's where you can float. If she moves, then you can. And it just like clicked for me. And so what we did is kind of just create our own rules for Shirley. When does she lean more Bayesian? When does she...

She leaned more Brooklyn, which people bring and making that decision. And that kind of gave me a space that made me feel like I was leaning into Shirley even more. Like I was, I was, I was really the nuance. I was understanding her more. Yeah.

So, yeah. And you know, you did so much research on this. You spent 15 years trying to get this movie made. It's only being made because you and your sister, Raina, got this across the line. And Shirley is an icon, but she's a complicated person because she's human. And something we know from her is that she had quite a temper

And she deserved to have that temper, too. So, you know, we see so many films like this come out that is saying, you know, we want to show you someone that's been erased from history. You know, Coleman Domingo and Rustin was such an important film because it gave us insight to someone that's been literally swept under the rug. Where a lot of people don't know Shirley Chisholm's name. No one, you know, unless you really are involved in...

civil rights movement and the history of it knew who Bailey was. Yeah, you don't know. So, you know, you as an artist and producer on this get to make a lot of intentional decisions on how you want to introduce her to people. Was there anything about her history that frightened you on kind of revealing in public or sharing with people? Not that frightened me. Okay, so I'm going to go down another rabbit hole here. Go, let's go. I really feel like

social media and the internet can possibly be the downfall of humanity.

A lot of people are going to crack their knuckles and go in on me just making that statement. But it's because of someone can have this whole entire life, right? And then just a one little thing that they might say on social media or do now their whole entire life is based on that one thing. Whether it was a mistake or

or whether it was they meant it in the moment, but something changed in them and they don't mean it, you know, later. But there's various reasons why a person can say something that they say

But I don't see what reasons justify people counting someone out over like a five second clip. So my concern, I guess, was that people and I guess I don't want to give things up until people see the film that people could see some choices that she made and it would erase everything.

for them in their mind, all of these other things that she had done. And I think you two know one of the things that I'm talking about, but hopefully it'll make people want to go in and tune in. But yeah, that's more because if anything else for my sister and I,

to tell this story, which is just a slice of her life. Yeah. It was really just a tribute to her and just an honor to her and a thank you to her. All right, listeners, we're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back, jumping right back into our conversation with the one and only Regina King. It's hard sometimes in biopics because you're coming to the work and you're coming to the story because you love this person. You love this person and what they've done. But there's always this balance of like how much good side, how much bad side. How much good side, how much bad side. Because you want the humanity of the person to come through. You want them to be real. You don't want their like...

there's no way she would have accomplished the things that she did accomplish if her whole entire life was just squeaky clean, no mistakes, you know? Even within relationships, that one thing that you love about a person is also that one thing that you can't stand about the person. When I think of what I've read about Shirley and then watching the movie, if I had to guess what her pressure point was for her...

Would it have been her ability to beautifully pop off when necessary? She popped off. Oh, she popped off. She popped off. And, you know, a couple of people like I got a chance to talk to her goddaughter, you know, quite a bit. And Barbara Lee, you know, both of them were very helpful in being able to.

and feel and talk to people who spent a lot of time with her. And both of them said they have never seen someone cuss somebody out without cursing. And I was like, that's brutal.

That's amazing. If I could only curse someone out without cursing. Yes. There was just one quote in the movie, and this gives nothing away. But she's telling someone to get the hell out. And she doesn't just say leave. She says, enough!

The dog dead. The dog dead. Yeah. Oh, my God. The dog dead. Who did that lie? Okay, so the beauty of that was, oh, my God, and I'm having a brain fart right now of the woman's name. And, oh, but we had a wonderful consultant, Zynga Fraser. She's actually has written a book that's coming out about Shirley. And she connected me to a Bayesian woman that was, because all of the Bayesian people that I was,

coming in contact with were younger and I felt like I need someone yeah exactly so she was like in her 60s and so I gave her the line how it was written and I was like can you Bayesian it up for me and so she gave all of those little words that line that line the other one about the

plaster for every sore. Oh, yeah. So she did all of that. And so I was like, oh, so then I went to John and I was like, John, what did you, what do you think? And John was like, yes. So we, because we wanted it to feel like authentic, like, yeah. Yes. And we knew that we knew we were going to find someone that would be able to

put the Bayesian twist on it. But the way it was written actually had a couple curse words in it. Oh, really? We were never going to use it. Okay. But it was just kind of like as a placeholder. Yeah. And so when we found, when Dr. Fraser found her, she was the perfect...

The dog did. I love that story so much because if listeners aren't realizing this, you know, Shirley Chisholm ran for president in 1972. That was 50 years ago. So it wasn't that long ago. We have people still with us today. Some may be still in office with our Congress these days. But they, you know, you can reach into personal stories like this to really flesh it out and figure out

the story here and the person. But also, you know, 50 years, we haven't seen a woman successfully run for president or win. Actually, Hillary Clinton did technically win, but she didn't win the popular vote. Yeah, but that was the, since Shirley, that would have been the first. Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, even right now as we're talking,

there's a woman running for president and everyone is just watching that campaign beyond life support. Yeah. Nikki Haley is just dead in the water kind of. What do you think Shirley Chisholm herself would say about the current state of affairs that she was watching right now? Interesting because there's a video clip of Shirley. It may have been in the 80s. Hmm.

And they asked her, you know, did they think there would be a female president or like would she see it in her lifetime? Something like that. And she said, no, but it will be a vice president. OK. Cut to we have a female vice president. All right. So Shirley was also a psychic. That's what I said. Look at her. Yeah.

should be so disappointed in how far we have not grown in our political, in our American political process. Yes, we see Shirley as identifying as a Democrat, but that's because that just at the time was... The other option was literally to go to segregation. Yeah, so... But I would say Shirley was all day independent. You know what I mean? Yeah.

She ended up doing great things with George Wallace, Bob Dole. So she definitely saw the need for all these thinkers. Yeah, yeah.

But that's what I want to follow up on. You bring it up. And this is a part of the movie that is part of the historical record. You know, when Shirley is running for president, one of her Democratic contenders is George Wallace, the George Wallace segregationist. And over the course of the campaign, he gets shot. Yeah, he gets shot. He ends up in the hospital and Shirley goes to see him. Yeah. This makes black people mad. It makes everybody mad. Yeah.

You know, what's sad is that 50 years since then, if the same kind of thing happened today, someone like Shirley would still get knocked over doing that. And I don't know. Call me Paula Innes. I don't think that's fair. No, it's not. And an example that comes to mind is Hillary Clinton going to the inauguration. People wanted her to protest. They were mad. But she was trying to show civility. And Shirley was doing the same. She was saying, like, let's keep this ship.

together. Right. You know? Right. I mean, it kind of goes back to what I was saying before with that a person can say one thing and done all of the... Yeah. It's like, do you really think that Shirley believes in segregation because she visited George in the hospital? Right. Like, come on. Yeah. You know, it's just...

It's a beautiful moment to me. And it is one of the things that I think is special about humanity. You know what I mean? That you can, when it does come down to things...

We may have differences, but... So let me back it up. A part in the film that didn't make... You know, when you have people with just such rich stories, it's hard to get it all... You can't fit it all in. So Shirley actually had a tumor removed right before 68. Really? During that whole running. Yeah. And so...

going to see Wallace originally the way it was written because we did have that tumor part earlier on in the film was that I've been where you've been. So her putting everything out, everything else, all this politics stuff to the side, how are you doing? You know, like, are you, no, I'm not going for the pomp and circumstance or for people to see. I'm going to go check on this man.

Yeah. Yeah, you know. Yeah.

and let him know that you made it out this time. Yeah. You better get right. Yeah. But I just felt like that was a beautiful moment. Talking about, you know, how Shirley might be treated for reaching across the aisle today or talking about what Shirley might think about Nikki Haley running today. I wonder if she were still living, what do you think Shirley Chisholm would be doing today? Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. If you take the Shirley that was in her 50s, if that same Shirley energy was happening today, I think she may have gotten further than what she did. I think she would have run. Well, because I feel like where our minds are now, we're more ready for something, someone like Shirley. And that energy, like not backing down, I think would be...

Imagine her on TikTok. Oh, my God. Well, I mean, she would be what the young people, even though the young people did gravitate to her then. But I think even now she'd be like such a badass. Like, oh, my God, we love her. You know, surely of then.

If she was here now, I think everyone's palate, the young people's palate, they're ready for it and ready to speak out about it. They are already, you know, in a space of F you. We wanted Bernie. You know what I mean? Yeah. And to your earlier point, you know, she would have maybe ran as an independent.

Yeah.

how do we inspire or encourage young people to want to be involved in politics? And I'm kind of like, I don't know, because I honestly feel like if I'm, I'd feel like, well, yeah, I don't want to be, I'm not inspired. Yeah, I'm not inspired. So how can, if I'm not inspired, how do I inspire them?

But our hope was because there was a conversation of releasing this film in 2023. And we all sat down as a team, you know, participant, Raina and I and Netflix. And we're just like, but is that really right for us to do? Because it also seemed like you were facing two choices because you can release it 2023, hop on the award cycle. Right. Or 2024 and you say this is going to be a political mess.

Right. But is it but are we honoring Shirley for doing it to hop on the awards? I don't think so. You know, if this film truly was done in the spirit of Shirley, if it was done because we felt the importance of people knowing her name, just like, you know, anyone else's name immediately that's done something that's created paths for people in the world, by example,

Then we have a presidential election coming out. Got two conventions this summer. Yeah. And Shirley was that convention queen. Yes. So it just seemed like it made sense. And to be quite honest, from a promotional standpoint, it's to me makes more sense to hitch this on the truck of.

All of these things that are happening now in 2024 as we are making our way to November. All right, time for a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more Regina King.

NetCredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by NetCredit. Applications subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com slash partner. NetCredit. Credit to the people.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands. I

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. We're back and we're jumping right back into this conversation with the Regina King.

You know, it is so hard to change people's minds ever, anytime. But if this movie is seen by people in an election year and it changes their mind about whatever in any way, what do you hope it changes their mind about?

Just the possibility of what can be done. Because with having $2 to campaign with and people hopefully seeing, you know, Lucas Hedges, who's an amazing actor. He's fantastic. Who plays Robert Gottlieb.

You know, the fact that she got him to come on board. And then Christina that plays Barbara Lee, who didn't believe in a political process at all, getting her. So then you see this team of people that she's putting together who would likely not ever know each other at all and get as far as she did. Imagine what we could, what could possibly be done. So hopefully it does work.

People can see that. Well, and like so much of what Shirley is asking in this movie and in her run for president is...

Well, just because I'm not going to win, does that mean I shouldn't try? Yeah. Right. Right. She knew from the start. She's not going to be president. But what I can do. Yes. What can I like? I can lock up some of these delegates. I can change the message. I can make them speak to this. Exactly. And I feel like that. And Zach, I mean, I feel like we always talk about this. That's lacking.

Yeah. Like, well, I shouldn't try unless I'm going to win. Yeah. I shouldn't try unless I'm going to win. But there are other things that are rewarding besides winning. Yeah. And that's the message of this film. That's a really great point. And I will be using that as I continue on on this press tour. That's great.

When it's actually not everything. Because it is, you know, when we talk to young people in the world today, all of us, they think history is made in these huge moments. The March on Washington, all these others. But it's really these small decisions we make. And also, it's in the failures of like not winning something or

pushing something forward that then didn't get fully funded or whatever, in which we see real change happen. And it feels like that's what the real message of this movie is. It's like, yeah, you may not be president, but you can create the pathway or the map for others to follow. Or open the door for someone like Barbara Lee. Yeah, for Barbara Lee. Who's running now. Yes. When I tell you, when I watched this movie the first time and I realized that that was Barbara Lee,

I was so touched by that because she's such an important person to all of us. Yes, fully. Currently, you know, active member of the U.S. government. And to have her so present in the film was so magical. Why was that important for you to show today, Bess?

Well, again, with a certain budget and a certain amount of time, it was very important for us. Black women especially were very big supporters of Shirley's campaign and other women supporters that weren't just black. But

A lot of, you know, were sending checks for just $5 in the mail, you know, for her campaign. And so Barbara was a representation in our film for all of those women. But also it was very important to show how this woman could come into her life. Mm-hmm.

And then look at Barbaralee now. Incredible. You know, all that Shirley inspired. And Barbara will tell you herself that without Shirley, she would not have. And not just Barbara would say it. Maxine Waters would say it. Every other Black woman in Congress, every other Black man in Congress would be like, yeah. Yeah.

But just to see that at such a young age, how Barbara and Shirley, this relationship... I mean, it's just touching as someone that was in my early 20s trying to work on political campaigns before I became a journalist. And you think you're so small and nothing can happen, that your life won't get bigger than this moment. And then you see in this film that, no, these are seeds being planted that will sprout one day. It will be your moment. Yeah. And speaking of these seeds being planted in someone like Barbara Lee, I also noticed...

some of the things young black people in this film were saying echo directly what we just heard young black voters in South Carolina saying. I wrote it down. So in this election in which Shirley is running,

The Democratic leaders are Humphrey and Muskie, and they're going up against corrupt Nixon. And I want to say a young Barbara Lee in this film says, quote, we are tired of the men we're sending to Washington. Humphrey and Muskie are better than Nixon. But is that the standard to be better than the man that's corrupt? People are saying the same thing about Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

In a deep 50 years later. 50 years later. It's wild. I mean, not another what would Shirley say about this question, but yeah. Well, I mean, that's what I was saying earlier. I think that she'd be so disappointed in, you know, and, and,

I think she also would be understanding just how exhausting all of it is, right? Because honestly, I'm exhausted. Same. I'm exhausted. Same. But she would still, I think, say we got to fight the good fight. Yeah. We got to fight the good fight. As long as you can. As long as you can. Until the end, be in it. Yeah. And everyone is in such...

We are so just traumatized. Yeah. Yeah. We went from a really tough election in 2016 to a tumultuous four years of Trump, whether you loved him or hated him. Right. To a pandemic. Yeah. Then another tough election. Yeah. We've been through it. Yeah. And we're asking folks to be motivated. Yes. To do anything. Yeah. And when you are looking at, OK, so come November, our options are going to be Trump or Biden. That's like...

Yeah. Whoa. What do I... What do I... Do you even have a choice? I'm just gonna go to sleep. Yeah. I'm just... It's really hard to be motivated. Yeah, and for you, I'd love to hear how you stayed motivated making this movie because we've said 15 years is the number. But to place that in a political landscape, that means that Obama...

was in office when you had the first idea for this and that things like, you know, BuzzFeed News wasn't even around. Like so much has changed in the world since you got this movie made. So like, what was it like to push through for 15 years and how did you find the strength as the political landscape kept shifting to stay so focused on this? Yeah, you made this movie in the era of Trump and Obama. Yeah. And Biden too. Yeah. Wow.

You know, I have to be honest, probably a huge part of it is my son, you know, because he's witnessed this whole entire journey. He witnessed...

You know, when I was campaigning for Obama in Sandusky, Ohio. Wow. Mom, where's Sandusky? Oh, my God. And I'm like, I don't even know. I have family from Sandusky and not many people know. I was like, but I'm on my way. There's only Cedar Point. I know it's close to Cincinnati because my family is Cincinnati. So I'm going to drive over to Cincinnati after we finish. But, yeah.

and then watching him be a part of the political process. And so just the understanding of Shirley and how galvanizing

Her mind worked in a way that always understood the importance of galvanizing, bringing people together and inspiring people. And so just all the times throughout the 15 years where things had happened where, you know, we were working on it and then it would kind of die down and working on it and kind of die down.

for so much of it, you know, Ian would ask, he calls Raina his TT. So what are you guys doing with that Shirley? And then, because we had taken, I had taken some pictures a long time ago that we just did a,

quick thing of our version of me, surely. And so he'd seen those pictures and we would see those pictures and they would pop up on our, you know, memories thing. And even when the things that had happened that made us have to stop and start and stop and start,

And that's a whole nother podcast. There was always someone, usually Ian, reminding us that you got to do it. You can't let this go. Or someone would say, I don't know who Shirley is. Somebody that you're like,

yeah, you should, you should know. You should really know. Yeah. Well, and just like hearing you talk about that long journey for the film, it's kind of what Shirley was all about, which was just like, finish the job. Yeah. Finish the job. Yeah. It might take 15 years. Finish it. Because she was having people tell her the whole time she was running, drop out now. Don't drop out now. Don't go to the convention. If we had done that, then, yeah. Yeah, it would have been for not. She went all the way until the end, right? And I think that is just

one of the beautiful lessons from this movie. All the way to the end. And so, here we are. We did it. We did it. And I don't even think Raina and I have really, like I remember when we've had a couple moments where we just look at each other and go,

Yeah. Is this happening? That's just the shooting of it. And then you have all of the posts and, you know, sitting with our amazing composer, Tamar Khali, you know, and just sitting there with her and looking at her like,

Yeah. We did this, you know, just having those moments of because everyone knowing all that Raina and I've gone through, all that we were going through on the journey and surviving it is, I think, the best. If Shirley is looking from somewhere, best for you, Shirley, we can do this, you know.

We didn't let it go. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way to wrap this conversation. It was so good. And I want to say, just on a personal note, one, I love you and I always will. I've been watching you forever. And I may have told you this. My mother's name is Regina. That's my mother's name. Queen. I know. Queen. Ashley Queen. And she passed away in June of last year. She'd been sick for a while and we're happy she's at rest. Mm-hmm.

And when she floated on, the girl floated. Okay, see ya. But she's at rest. And what I love about this conversation and what I've been trying to do with my mother's memory since she's been gone is to talk about her when it makes sense, knowing that the memories are still there. The stories are still there. And they're here. And they're here. They're there. I am Ian. Ian is me. And so just to hear you speak about your son with such love

And in what feels like a present tense. Yeah. Always in the present tense. I just want to say I appreciate that. Thank you. And I'm going to give you the hugest squeeze when we get up out of these chairs. And thank you so much for sharing that with me. And Regina and Ian are,

floating together yay they better put on Shirley on Netflix oh yeah host their screening thank you for that well thank you for this this was really the movie's a gift you're a gift and we're just grateful to share this space with you I love you all I can't wait to squeeze you both alright

Listeners, thank you so much for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support the show, you can do a few things. Follow Vibe Check on your favorite podcast listening platform. Like, follow it. Hit the button. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts. Leave us a review. And most importantly, tell a friend IRL. Get up in their face and say, listen to Vibe Check. Amen to that.

And as always, huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer, Rich Garcia, engineer, Jordan Duffy, and Marcus Hum for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at Sam Sanders, at Zach Staff, and at The Ferocity and use the hashtag vibecheckpod.

Stay tuned for our regular episode this Wednesday. Until then, goodbye. Goodbye. What kind of day is it? It's a White Claw Day.

White Claw. Grab life by the claw. Please drink responsibly. Hearts also with flavor. White Claw Salsa Works, Chicago, Illinois.