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Ladies, can you feel it? All three of us in a studio today. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed John. And I'm Zach Safford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

So I had to New York. We should fully disclose. Oh, yes. You're in the New York studio. And then me and Zach are in LA. I'm sure listeners are just so thrilled about that. You know, they can tell. They can feel the energy. I do like getting to see the folks here at Stitcher. It's cool. This week, we are talking about how we have all unwillingly become social media marketers. And I'm not just talking about us as podcast hosts or as authors. Girl, you could be an accountant.

Dentist. You could be a florist, a dentist, a baker. I follow dancing dentists on TikTok. See? Everybody's a brand now. And there's a great article in Vox about it and the burden of it all and what it feels like. So we're going to talk about that.

And, you know, a certain holiday associated allegedly with romance is coming up. And so we thought it might be a good time to take a listener question. In this case was a spicy question about relationship advice. So that'll be fun. But before we get into all of that, sisters, how are we feeling? What's the vibe? Zach, how you doing?

I'm tired. As everyone knows, if you've been following the news, L.A. is underwater. It is falling apart. Truly. Atmospheric river is the term I've read. I was in Chicago for the past few days, and I had to move my flight around due to work but also the rain. So I got in really late last night. But wow, being in L.A. during this is terrifying.

the most terrifying thing because no one knows how to drive. No one knows how to be. And you just feel the energy in the air. So being in the streets right now has been like, oh God, I just want to go home. I'm tired. I can't deal with any of this right now. Well, and just like the way in which LA's infrastructure is not ready for this. So we already know that like the drains get too full way too quickly. But the Wi-Fi gets so bad when it rains like this. My wife,

- The Wi-Fi's been out for about eight hours, and it's just 'cause the rain. - Uh-oh, that's not something I would've guessed. - No. - Even here, we're at the studio, and you know, they got good credit here at CBS 10 Radio and Stitcher, but this Wi-Fi has been messing up, and we are in the same building as Parkwood, which is owned by Beyonce. There's a lot of major- - And Crooked is downstairs. - And Crooked is downstairs, so there's a bunch of us here, so- - Where the Wi-Fi at? - Let the Wi-Fi's knock out those visuals from Beyonce's phone downstairs.

So this is your vibe, Jack-Zach, but I have to confess, because there are a lot of dog owners who listen to this show. I have two dogs in my house now. The young one, if I go outside and say, you're going to pee in the rain, he's like, okay. The old girl, Zora, who y'all have all met, Zora's like, I'm not doing that. She's not new to the game. She's true to the game. It's a battle. And in a first time ever in response to the rain and protest of it,

She took her sweet little old self into the middle of my living room and was like, here you go. Oh.

Oh. And looked at me and then went to the couch. Oh, she made eye contact. Yes. She said, you forgot sugar melts. I'm not going out there. I'm not going out there. But to close out on the rain, why I'm also really upset about the rain is, as many of you know, because I've talked to some of you in the wild about this, I'm now an Apple Watch wearer. I'm now my steps queen. We got you. I'm now hitting my steps, honey. And I now don't know how I'm going to hit these steps.

It's called the treadmill. I mean, we may find a treadmill, but I really love the outdoors and walking. And what I'm really hoping I don't have to resort to, and I can't believe I'm saying this in public, but I have now become that person that does loops in their house if they haven't hit their 10,000 steps. Oh, yeah. And Craig has to watch me walking in circles. And it's not a massive part. I'm going to send Craig a text in a safe space.

And I'll be like, Craig, how are we doing? How are we doing, Fred? We were watching True Detective. And you're walking. And I'm just walking in front of the TV. And he was like, can you sit down? While watching a TV? Wow. What you need to do is go to Century City Mall. Oh, that's a good idea. And just get some laps in there. And then end up at Din Tai Fung. I...

That's a good idea. Also, what I've learned with the walking, it's really about how you throw the hands. It helps with the steps. It's really, I am now 87 years old. I'm so concerned. They're going to just move on to Sam. I cannot with this walking in circles. Sam, how are you doing?

Please be doing better. Please don't be like I, too, and walking in circles in my living room while watching Train Detectives. My vibe is multifaceted. First and foremost, for the first time in my adult life, I watched the Grammys twice.

With no expectation. I had friends over. We ate food. We drank good wine. And the Grammys were kind of background music. That made it a most enjoyable experience. I love that. The performances were good. And women I love cleaned up. SZA cleaned up. She did great. Miley did great. Miley, who...

As she ages, I'm like, I love you more. I'm into it. I love her more. The hair confused me. The Bob Mackie dress she was wearing was really, really beautiful. I surprised myself by how loud I screamed when they announced Victoria Monet's name. So this is what surprised me about Victoria Monet because I was onto her when her first EP came out a few years ago. And I knew her as a songwriter for Ariana Grande for years.

So, you know, the rules around who gets to be up for Best New Artist are always kind of tricky, but it's basically when you make your first major label debut full album. So that got her into contention, and she won. Her speech was beautiful. She and her family and that little baby girl they got, they're all just class acts. 1,000%. They feel like old Hollywood kids.

Glamour. They do. Old Black Hollywood glamour. And I like that. I like that. And I also love what she represents to so many people. And we're going to talk about this in the first segment. But, you know, having a career in the arts is really hard. It's a hustle. But it's even harder lately because everyone thinks, one, you got to do it when you're really young. And two, you got to become a social media superstar. Right away. Before you even get a hit. Before you get a hit. And she didn't do that. No. It took her 15 years. Well, she said in her speech, which was so beautiful. She's like, I feel like I had been...

with my roots planted for 15 years. And right now, they're sprouting. Now it's beautiful. That was the first part of my vibe. Second part of my vibe, so I watched the Grammys on Sunday evening, but Sunday morning, I watched this last weekend's episode of SNL.

And that gave my vibe the entire opposite reaction than the Grammys did. Y'all saw it by now. Nikki Haley made a guest appearance in the cold open of last weekend's SNL episode, which Ayo Adibori hosted, and J-Lo was on as a musical guest.

During the opening sketch, they made a joke about Nikki Haley saying that slavery was not the cause of the Civil War. And as she's laughing on this soundstage, she says, I guess I should have said it was slavery the first time. Ha ha ha. Live from New York. It's Saturday night.

It was bad, y'all. Did y'all see this? Yes, it was traumatizing. No, we didn't see it because I have taste. And I just... Lorne Michaels is Lorne... I just...

I get it. I get it. There's so many reasons why the choices they made around Nikki Haley putting this wonderful host who we're so excited about in this situation. But I'm like, it's SNL. I don't go to that type of party because I know the kind of music they'll be playing. And I think that's how I have to do it. And I was watching it and I was like, you know what? This makes me sad, but I'm not surprised. And I was like, why do I not feel surprised? And then I remembered when I was covering politics in the 16 campaign cycle, I

They sent me to New York to cover the SNL episode that Trump hosted. I am so sorry. How did you know? And I was out there with the protesters because at that point, a number of Latino advocacy groups were protesting Lauren even having Trump on. And one of the groups said that if anyone in the crowd at SNL yelled out that Trump was racist—

as he was hosting that they would give him $5,000. This group was called deportracism.com. They offered a $5,000 bounty to anyone who screamed out in Trump's SNL episode, you're racist.

If you flashback to that episode, the Trump host, where he does the hotline bling video with Jay Pharoah and the opening monologue, someone yells out, Trump, you're racist. The cameras pan out and it's Larry David. And Lauren has brought in Larry David to make the joke. And when you and so it's like this is not new for Lauren.

Lauren jokes around about these very serious things in his quote-unquote attempt to make SNL for everybody. I don't like it. I didn't like it then, so I don't like it now. So my vibe is just, ugh. My question is, are you going to keep watching it? And if so, why? You know what? I want to, like, in some way, part of me wants to feel like chronicling this or looking at it head on is good. Like, why can't we just put it on Ice Flow and send it down the river? I just, you know. Yeah, I hear you. But also, I'm just like...

I think there's still a bit of political reporter in me where I'm like, bear witness. Bear witness. That's a great point, Sam, because I too was shook by watching that because it took me back to 2016. And Saeed, you were very anti it. I think this speaks to all of our professional careers. You and I were in politics for a bit. We covered all the stuff. We followed the motherfuckers. Saeed was so right at the time. He was like, do I get this man coverage? And yet you and I are like following him around the country. Like, let him go. Let him go.

And, you know, part of me wants to be like, oh, gosh, Ayo's in this really tough position because she was in a double tough position because before this SNL episode, an old podcast she was on, an episode of Scam Goddess, she's dragging J.Lo for a felt saying that J.Lo can't sing. And then they had to host the show together. And she didn't lie. She didn't tell a single lie.

J-Lo was out there throwing hair extensions, but she wasn't throwing notes from the clips I saw. Anywho, how's your vibe? What's your vibe this week in New York City? My vibe, so yeah, I'm in New York. I got to do a reading of new work last night with some great writers, and that was really exciting. But something I've noticed these last few trips, but I decided to really pay attention this time around,

Two things I noticed. One, yesterday I was walking around trying to find a place to have some lunch.

And I was in the East Village, which, you know, I think short of Queens, I think the East Village is like one of the city's great food neighborhoods. You know what I mean? There's just so many wonderful... Everything was closed. Everything was closed for lunch. Why? Well, I'm getting there. Because I was just observing at first. I was like, damn. And at first it was, gosh, a lot of places are closed. And then I started walking intentionally past places that I knew used to serve lunch. And they were closed. Uh-huh.

And then I was like, okay, well, let me run an errand real quick and I'll figure it out. And I popped into CVS because I needed to go to the pharmacy. The pharmacy was closed for lunch.

For lunch. Closed for lunch. They were like, I'm sorry, we'll be back at two. And I texted a friend who lives in New York and she was like, yeah, my pharmacy does that now as well. And I was like, this is new. New York. The city that never sleeps. Yeah. And it's like, and of course, this is midday. But yeah, I think it's really interesting. Just I mean, this is me just on the street observing that something has happened in our economy.

Like, there are businesses that do not have the people they need, I think, to either serve lunch or just be open for lunch in the case of a pharmacy. And if that's happening in New York, it's happening in other places. The parallel in L.A. is, like, places that you would think would just be open all the time are closed forever.

Mondays and Tuesdays. That's fair. Have you noticed that? I saw a lot of that. Mondays and Tuesdays. Or like only open Tuesday through Friday. I just, I feel like the wheels are starting to fall off and you're just starting to see it, you know, like you go to your pharmacy or your favorite restaurant isn't, you know, like something's going on. Yeah. Yeah.

With that, I think we should start moving towards this episode. But before we get to the episode, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love hearing from you. Keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And before we jump into the show, quick announcement. We did it last year for Rihanna's halftime show. We're going to do it this year for Usher's. There will be a special Super Bowl halftime show edition episode of Vibe Check in your feeds probably

Probably the night of the Super Bowl. Look at us. Straight culture. I have been doing my due diligence and research, paying very close attention to his new underwear ads. I've got my magnifying glass out, markers and Sharpies. I'm doing everything to prepare for what Usher will bestow upon us. Hey, hey. Let's jump in, shall we? Let's jump in, shall we?

First, we're going to talk about social media and how all these apps are asking us for way too much while paying us nothing. But to get into that idea and this Vox piece that Saeed queued up, I want to bring up a little headline y'all might have seen last week because it says a lot about how the math is not mathing for the average social media user.

So, late last week, you might have heard that Universal Music Group pulled all of its music off of TikTok.

This is a big deal. Universal is one of the biggest record labels in the world and has some of the biggest artists in the world. Universal music group artists like Taylor Swift, The Weeknd, Eminem, they're all going to be gone from TikTok soon. They are gone. I've already seen TikTok clips of people who had their signature song that they like to dance to, and the clips are silent. Wow. So this is a big deal because in this current musical economy, hits are made.

Live and die on TikTok. So it's a big deal. So it's so big that even at the Grammys last weekend, super producer Jack Antonoff talked about this. Anywho, we're watching this fight happen between a record label and the social media platform over how they're going to share profits from the viral content that we create for free.

We're literally watching TikTok and the biggest label in the world fight over how they're going to share the profits of the things that we make. The very intricate music videos and short form films that we make for TikTok for free. This is really kind of wild because

Because we're in this economy where the companies that make the music that we use to make the videos, the companies that platform the videos, they're all making money while we are not. And while we're being asked to do more and more just to exist in humans in this world. So Saeed alluded to this story from Vox last week. My former Vox colleague, Rebecca Jennings, wrote a piece called, quote, Everyone's a sellout now.

And in this article, she writes, quote, the Internet has made it so that no matter who you are or what you do from nine to five middle managers to astronauts to house cleaners, you cannot escape the tyranny of the personal brand.

So even as these platforms keep using us while not paying us, while they argue over profits, we're facing more pressure every day to build our brands on these platforms. And I mentioned, you know, watching dentists do choreo on TikTok. That's the world we live in, you know? And so I want to talk about what these pressures mean, particularly for creatives and folks who have chose livelihoods in creative fields, because I can't think of this conversation and not think immediately, Saeed, about it.

about authors and the hustle they have to do to get their books out right now. Watching this news, watching TikTok fight over how to share profits while reading this Jennings piece, how do you feel?

I feel, and you know, I talked to my friend Isaac Fitzgerald. His most recent book is Dirtbag, Massachusetts. It's also his birthday week. Happy birthday, Isaac. I'm saying this because Isaac is an Aquarius. And so like me shouting out his birthday on the episode is the last thing he would want. But we were talking about Rebecca's article yesterday. And, you know, he was like, it's real. It is a thing. Like everyone is being asked questions.

to do more. There is less, I would say, infrastructural support for authors. It is not unusual for particularly newer authors when they're maybe trying to find an agent. Or even worse, I think this is even more frustrating. You've written a book. You've written a book of essays or nonfiction. And then the marketing department, they play a big role often in, I think, how much money you get for your advance.

because they're kind of running the numbers. And they're kind of like, this person doesn't have a large enough social media presence. And I just think that's so frustrating because social media is something, and we can talk about the need to engage readers to be a part of the community as an artist, but it's not the book. And so it's really frustrating that you're like, wait, I'm not popular enough. The work can't stand on its own. That's frustrating. And then it's like, you know how these margins are for authors, right?

An advance amount will sound good, but you've got to make that last for years. It's just galling knowing that most authors are not going to become rich from their books. But a viral TikTok that they make might make ByteDance more money. Is it the same for Broadway? I mean, it's the same for Broadway. It's the same for even my doctor. I went to the doctor the other day. I have a new doctor. Lovely man. Okay. An influencer. Everyone on staff, an influencer. Oh, that's very stressful. His nursing staff, everyone.

Everyone, huge followings. And I was like, oh, God, is this going to be? Does it make your health care better or worse? Yeah, does it make it better? Yeah, how did it make you better?

feel. I don't know if I would love that. I was stressed out walking in there because I'm like, are you good? Because, you know, the thing that this is a stereotype and it's not true because I think some influencers are incredible business people. They run a small business. I've gotten close with Dylan Mulvaney over the years and she is brilliant in how she moves through the world. Alok Vyamanan, brilliant in how they move through the world as queer influencers. But I don't think we need to live in a world in which for you to be good at your craft, whether it's medicine, writing a book, you also need to be good at

TikTok. That really frightens me because what I see with artists most of all is that they're so stressed about everything around the work that they never do the work. And then that blocks work from getting created. And I don't want to live in a world where there's a bunch of mediocre stuff available because those people are good at marketing bullshit. Well, and like, I think particularly with creative endeavors, like,

Our brains are only so big and can only do so much and can only devote so much energy. So if I have X amount of energy in me to be creative, if 40% of that goes to the TikTok and only 60% to the album or the book or the whatever or the screenplay,

Does that mean that that piece of work is worse than it would have been had I made it outside of the world of social media? And I don't know. I don't know. I also think, and this comes up in the article from a media studies scholar named Christina Scharf. She points out that one of the other issues with this is that these platforms are a part of the cultures in which they exist, right?

And so ongoing dynamics are replicated. And so she points out, you know, we all have access to these platforms that don't cost anything, right? And that's kind of the point. It's like, it's free. It's the democratization of the internet. Get out there, you know. But she says that's often mistaken for the assumption that there are no socioeconomic barriers, she says, about these platforms. The barriers are much more hidden. Yeah.

You have to know how to present yourself and how to create visuals that are appealing. And she points out that, of course, it's harder for racial minorities, women, trans people, and other minorities groups because you're already vulnerable in one way or another that can backfire. So this points out to me a few things. One, it does feel like there are so many more ways things can go wrong, right?

when you're engaging social media than ways that can pay off for going viral. Yes, there are examples of some of the good things that can happen if you get a music deal, you can get a book deal. We have examples of that. But we have like 10 more examples on the other side for each of those. Flame outs, mental health crises, all kinds of things.

Yeah. Two, the whole point of this is like people who are trying to get their sea legs. So you're not going to be – you wouldn't be doing this at all if you already had a strong following, right? So you are literally an amateur figuring this out in a high-stakes environment that, as the scholar points out, tends to replicate dynamics like sexism, racism, misogyny.

And there's a whole other litany of issues that are introduced to you when all of a sudden you're a one-man band making your video content from home.

If your home doesn't look wealthy enough, do you want to shoot a video in it? Yeah. Seriously. I mean, we saw that a lot with the pandemic with kids doing schoolwork from home. A lot of kids... They didn't want to be on camera. Didn't want to be on camera because of the discrimination they would face and the bullying because they weren't as wealthy as other kids in school. So there is a mode of class operating when you're looking at content creation. It's like, what space are you in? What technology do you have? All of that. I wanted to link this...

TikTok universal fight over music profits to this Jennings article because part of me is wondering and maybe it's Pollyanna-ish maybe too hopefully optimistic but like does this get better if these platforms like the record labels or TikTok just start paying folks based on how well their stuff does does that make it better YouTube kind of does this YouTube creators get paid yes

Would that make the landscape better for folks if there were just more payment from these companies for the work that we do on these platforms? Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I think where I get stuck all the time in thinking about how to solve this is back in media, which is falling apart. Yeah.

Complete market failure. We haven't even mentioned mainstream news media and how this affects that sector. Oh, God. It has destroyed this sector because now everyone's obsessed with going viral and not actually reporting. And everyone wants to read the news articles on a website that's not the actual news site. Exactly. And I think there was an era where, you know, when I was an editor and site, and I met through this process, you know, Twitter was our...

space to test work, to get noticed, to get hired. I would draft stories in tweets. Exactly. You could do all this stuff and you were getting paid. And the reason why we were doing that as an economy is that Twitter was driving traffic. Facebook was driving traffic to these platforms and they were making money off ad revenue and also the platforms were giving them a cut of profits into it. Instagram doesn't give you a cut. You get money on Instagram if a brand likes you. Exactly. And then you pop their stuff. So when the platform stopped selling

not even subsidizing, just paying for using the content on their platforms because that's what got us to go on there. We saw all the publications nosedive so that no one was getting any work anymore. And now they're all like on Twitter making no money or Instagram. So it just, you know, we need to have more equity in the profit shares on the tech side of this to really sustain any access. I know we have to wrap, but I do want to ask both of y'all as we close, like, do you see this dynamic in any way getting better? And if not,

financial incentive what might make it get better. Saeed, I want to hear from you on this. Or at least how do we live in this world and not let it overtake us?

It's like predictions about how it gets. It's probably not going to get better. It's just going to change. But actually, you know, you just had a wonderful conversation with Adi Cornish for our Haste-Sys series. And so much of what she said resonated with me. And I'm actually going to do two sides of the coin from two different things she said that resonated. One thing she said that shook me to my core. She was like, you know, the reality is, she was like, at least in media, you're actually just like one boss away from

from like everything kind of falling apart. Yeah, the moment a new boss comes in, like everything can change. And the thing is, if you do learn how to develop some kind of presence in social media or rather an understanding of how to use social media, whatever the platform is, to connect with people,

that can insulate you from the precariousness of a boss suddenly just jumping in your life. Because there are people that have jumped from MySpace to Vine to Instagram to TikTok. It's like, of course it helps to have institutional support. But you know what? If this publisher, you know, some random straight man in marketing doesn't see the vision for my book, you know what? I know how to connect with people. I don't need you. So I think that is something to keep in mind. And then the other thing she said later was,

We can't act like voting is the beginning and end of being a citizen. It's just one part. And that's true. Sorry. I'm sorry. It would be nice. You work really hard on your book, and then you write the end. But it's not the end. And do you want to be with the people or not? And so to go back to something that my friend, I mentioned Isaac, he's someone who's taught me the model of what I call, and he calls, literary citizenship.

And your work as a writer is part of that. I think, yeah, we can get caught up in the understandable nihilism and the problem. But I think we just say this is about being with the people. And what are the ways I can do that throughout my career? Not just when I have something to sell, but as I'm living as an artist or a maker or a thinker. And I think if you are living in community, creating in community, that also helps, I think, when you are then trying to convince that community to support you.

Yeah. Last fun fact as we close. One, I love those comments. More on this topic soon. But YouTube, which actually has perhaps the most positive relationship with paying creators to make stuff. I guess so. They also have a really big music subscription service. More than 100 million people pay for a subscription of some kind on YouTube, most for music. And last year, YouTube generated more sales in music.

than the entire recorded music industry. Wow. I had no idea. Google alphabet. I had no idea. Come on. Anywho, we love talking about this stuff. The internet and where it's headed. We'll hit more of it soon, I'm sure. In the meantime, TikTok, pay people. Why not? I mean, it's kind of like, yeah, spoiler, you know, paying people tends to work. It tends to solve not all the problems, but a lot of them. But a lot. A lot. All right. We're going to take a break.

And when we come back after the break, we're going to pay some attention to a very spicy advice letter all about race and love.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

Alright, my loves, we are back and it is time for some relationship advice. This is a listener question we got like I think a couple of weeks ago and we were kind of like, oh, this is the time. This is the time.

Because like, why talk about love when you can talk about racism? It's beautiful. It's a big like, oopty oop. And I will say this listener honestly kicks it off, you know, even just from the subject of the email. The subject is, am I racist for not wanting to date white men anymore?

I tell you what, that's how you get Vibe Check host attention in the subject line. That's how you kick it off. That's how you get it in the Vibe Check group chat. Yo.

So this listener writes,

more at the time. Years of therapy and self-growth made me confident in myself and wanted to maybe give dating another chance. Most of the guys I've been pursued by have been white guys, which is fine, but the problem with them has been the following. Being treated as a fetish, as they think I'm a top and have BBC. Listeners, of course, that means the British Broad

broadcasting network. Another example, processing their liberal guilt when it comes to race. I hear about when they lived in my parents' area in Brooklyn in the 70s, and it was all white. In politics that fall in line with conservatives, they view, for an example, all lives matter.

I'm just to the point where I don't want to deal or date with white guys anymore in order to not deal with these arguments and feel respected. Am I wrong for feeling this way? You're not at the point where you don't want to date or deal with white guys anymore because you could just stop. Sorry. Oh. I hear this letter and it feels like someone who is on the precipice of making a choice but doesn't want to do it. And so it's like, you could stop dating white guys tomorrow.

You're asking strangers whether you should or not. Well, but yeah, but that's also not what he's asking. Me reading between the lines, uh,

I feel like he wants someone to tell him to stop dating white guys. Oh, okay. And that is not our place to tell you. Yeah, yeah. And I have more on this, but Zach, you have some thoughts. You know, what I was going to say, I've heard this question a lot in my life as a black person in the world, as a queer person, someone with a white partner, someone that's a child of an interracial relationship. And, you know, what I always am reminded of is that no matter who your partner is,

Anti-blackness can show up in all relationships. It's not just the white guys. Including if you're dating a black person. Including a black person. So if your real thing here is when I'm falling in love with someone, it hurts sometimes. They say things that really hit at some trauma, some sore spots for me, and I don't know how to work through it. And some of it could be race. Then that's its own thing too that you're going to keep coming up against. But I don't think, I guess just to begin this conversation, bigotry.

Banning white men will not save you from getting your heart hurt from racism in love. There you go. There you go. To start. Yeah, and that's an interesting acknowledgement because ultimately all relationships, but certainly all intimate long-term relationships...

There is going to be a bridge of difference of some kind. Even boyfriend twins, a phenomenon I find very interesting. You're not the same person. So it could be class, as you point out, politics, religion, a political issue could emerge. I mean, I think it's been, for example, like, you know, seeing what's going on in Gaza. I think a lot of people who thought they were simpatico with their partners are seeing...

actually very explosive division, you know? So you're right. I like beginning with acknowledging we can never truly insulate ourselves from conflict because to be in an intimate relationship is to be intimate, to be close. Yes.

I, and I said this earlier, what I feel this listener wants is an easy way out of race and racialized issues that pop up in relationships. And I feel like this listener wants us to say to him, if you just stop dating white guys, all of your race problems and relationships will be over. As we've established, that's not the case.

And so I don't want you to think about it in that yes or no binary mindset. What I've done for myself when I enter into relationships is ask myself a simple question. Do they get it?

Do they get it? I have dated all colors of men all across the rainbow. I've dated dark, light, every ethnicity, the last X, biracial. It's been all over the place. And what I find myself doing that is the most helpful one, I want to assess whether a man is going to work well with me when it comes to issues of race. It's just a simple question. Do they get it? Yes. If I brought an issue of racism to them,

Would they hear me out? Yeah. If I said to them, I experienced this thing today and I know it's because I was black. Would they say, I don't think so. Or would they say, tell me more? Yeah.

Are they willing to be open about what they know and don't know when it comes to race? And are they willing to have a conversation in which they understand that their experience will probably never be yours? Do they get it? And the do they get it question, that is a question for every partner regardless of their race. And just because they're black doesn't mean they get it. And just because they're white doesn't mean they don't get it. So I just think it's like how can you –

A few dates in, find a way to ask the do you get it question. And maybe it's just literally showing this advice letter to

to your next man. Yeah. Can you deal with this? That's interesting because both of what you're saying is the crux of this or what you should be thinking about if you're trying to move through the situation, which is, you know, intimate relationships are going to get intimate. You're going to deal with a lot of things that are like hard and tough and you got to make sure that other person's willing to do the work there. And I think if you were to bring this letter to a partner, that is a great way to check in and be like, hey, what would you, when you read this, what's your reaction? What's going on? Because, you know, in the past where I tried to just ignore it

not talk about it or look past it, it has blown up in my face. There was one example. I was 26 and I was casually dating this guy and he's a white guy in Chicago and I sent him a picture. I was visiting family in Atlanta and I was with my brother who is white and he has white children and I was pushing the children in a stroller and he wrote to me, wow, the help looks great today. And he was trying to be flirty. Hmm.

Oh my God. And this is, I'm sharing this with everyone to be like, this is what it looks like when we talk about like microaggressions, sexual racism, all the stuff in relationships. He says something to me without even considering the context of that. I was a black man walking through Atlanta with a white kid and you're calling me to help. And I tried to talk to him about it and he freaked out. I hope you dumped him. Oh, 1000%. I have vivid memories. I was sitting in a Waffle House with my sister, Justin, who's at Harvard right now. And we're proud of you, girl. But I was in a Waffle House at two in the morning screaming. Wow.

And those are those moments, you know, I think like banning a man, banning a race doesn't work. But in these moments in which you find friction, moments in which you find yourself activated around racism, you have to speak up and say something. If you don't, that's another issue. Well, here's what I would say. You're not wrong for feeling this way. I don't think people are wrong to feel anything if a feeling says how you feel. You're entitled to your feelings.

I would say there's no easy way to make sense of love and relationships. I think you can try.

So sure, stop dating white men. See what happens. See what is revealed to you. Maybe what's revealed to you is a great partner. You're like, glad I don't have to deal with that anymore. But don't do the thing where you stop dating white men and then the first non-white man you date, you make it a point to virtue sigma how great you are because you're not dating a white man. Oh, that's a good point. Don't do that. That's a good point. Don't do that. The other thing I would say, though, and I think that in, like, Zach, your example, this illuminates for me.

Something that's really important to pay attention to, and I did not do this in my last relationship, and thus I'm learning from it.

It only gets worse if there are flare-ups of any kind. And this is like, you know, if someone is disrespectful to waiters to me on an early date, that's the end. That's the last time we're ever going on a date. If someone makes a joke about someone's pronouns or whatever, I don't play with that. I don't think it's cute. You know, it's only going to get worse because the first few dates and the first month or so of the relationship is that, you know, that honeymoon period.

So I think it's really important to pay attention to all of those cues because I'm here to tell you that if you stick it out with that person, whatever it is, it's always, I think, only going to get worse later on, including anti-Black racism. I know we have to wrap, but I have one more follow-up that I just want this listener to think about and ponder for a bit. In one of the lines of the email, he writes, "'Most of the guys I have been pursued by have been white guys, which is fine.'"

I want to ask this listener, are you mostly putting yourself in social situations in which you are usually pursued by white guys? Can you change the landscape in which you're existing so that you aren't subliminally attracting men who are going to get on your nerves? On top of releasing this listener to ask the right questions of whoever he's dating, I want him to think about

what kind of situations he continually, repetitively might put himself in. Yeah. Yeah, but I also think we live within cultural systems and landscapes.

Looking beyond this example of this person, for example, if a black student is at a predominantly white institution and there are literally just fewer black students, that would impact their ability to find gay black partners. So I also think it's like thinking about the system or the landscape and what you're in, not necessarily I think looking at it as a judgment, what toxic situation if I put my hand. It's like, okay, what's the system that I am in? How is it impacting the options that are presenting themselves to me?

And are there things I can do to reach out and connect

you know, with more people that I'm trying to find. But also, as we bring this up, it's like we all had that phase where you purposefully dated someone who you knew was going to get on your nerves, but you wanted to prove to yourself that you could date them. And I've had a few relationships where I was dating a man who was wrong for me, but it felt like a status. And I think a lot of times, I just feel some kinship with this listener. That's why I'm going so deep. It's like...

I want you, listener, to go places and find people who want you for you exactly the way you are. Right. And I don't want you to keep putting yourself in situations where the men who pursue you aren't good for you. Right. And it's like that's what I want. My thing is I think the phase that you're referring to is America. Yeah.

The phase that we're talking about is white supremacy, which is to say we're going to be in that phase until we're in the grave. What we can control, though, I think, and this is what you're talking about, is like our perspective about it. Like not feeling like white supremacy or whatever dynamic gets to determine what's possible for me. I also just want this listener to end up in some very affirming queer POC spaces. Yeah. Like POC and just see what it feels like.

Also, I'll say it, girl. You deserve some good black dick, you know? I mean, there's some liberation to be found. Woo!

And I want that for you, too. I want that for you as well, conflicted dater. Yeah, also, if you're on a date with someone and they say some racially foul shit and get on your nerve, leave. Don't wait. Don't wait. If they don't get it, they don't get it. Anywho, enough of that. Happy frickin' Valentine's Day. But I think the point of, I mean, I'm excited we got to have this conversation and this was actually quite fun, but the other reason why we brought it up is that we'd love to hear more questions from y'all.

Not about this. I'm done with this. No, I like this question. This was a good question. But we'll leave it there for now. I'm excited about the emails that will come in. I want this listener to read this advice letter to the next guy he's into and just see what that guy says. That I do. I actually like that. Do that. I like that special size. All right, friends, we'll take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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All right, listeners, we are back. And before we end the show, we'd like to each share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. And to get us going, I'd love to throw to Saeed Jones. So since we are doing our series, Hey Sis, where we're each having conversations with incredible Black women who inspire us, I thought I would read a poem by a Black woman I've been learning from my entire life as a writer, Lucille Clifton. This poem is great. The title is Wishes for Sons.

I wish them cramps. I wish them a strange town and the last tampon. I wish them no 7-Eleven. I wish them one week early and wearing a white skirt. I wish them one week late. Later, I wish them hot flashes and clots like you wouldn't believe. Let the flashes come when they meet someone special. Let the clots come when they want to.

Let them think they have accepted arrogance in the universe. Then bring them to gynecologists, not unlike themselves. That is Wishes for Sons by Lucille Clifton. It was first published in 1987. I've always loved this poem, and now I love it twice as much after hearing you read it. That's great. That's so good. Sam, what about you?

I finally jumped on the bandwagon and I'm watching that Peacock show, The Traitors. I have heard things, but I haven't yet. Phaedra is such a mess and I love it and that's all. Can we like Phaedra? What she has done is pretty bad on the other show, Real Housewives of Atlanta. What did she do on... I stopped watching this. I mean, I won't even... She's done some pretty terrible things. That's why she's banned. Not banned, but she was kicked off the show. But she's so good at TV. She's so good at TV. So the premise of this show is...

is all these reality TV veterans from various shows come together in this big fancy mansion. Alan Cumming is the host. And over the course of the season, they have challenges. But every episode, there are two people who have been made traitors, but no one else knows. And they off one of the contestants each.

each episode and you're trying each episode to figure out who is the traitor a very simple premise but they've got reality star OGs there and it's really captivating I didn't think it's my kind of show but it is nice little background music and Phaedra is just she knows what she's doing that's it and I also think according to Nielsen that show is the most it's doing incredibly well it's doing incredibly well it's amazing I'm now going to watch it you've influenced me because I've been holding back I haven't done it and

And my rec for this week is a song that I have not stopped listening to since I text Sam being like, why didn't you tell me this was out? And we got into an argument about it. But the song is called Prove.

Prove It To You, and it's by Brittany Howard of the Alabama Shakes. I love her. And it's her first dance record. Oh, right. You were mad about her. Yeah. I was like, I've been on her for a while. I was like, how did no one tell me that Brittany Howard not only has new music, but dance music? And it's so good. It's so good. Well, here's why you don't know. So she is a K-Star W staple. So listeners who are in L.A. know that K-Star W...

The local NPR station out here plays some really good music all day, every day. They've been playing every new Brittany Howard record as soon as it comes out. Oh, wow. She's released three singles from the upcoming album. My favorite of those new singles right now is a song called Red Flags. Which is great. But she's the truth. Yeah. I love her album, Shakes. I love her now. I cannot wait for the album, which is soon. And I'm going to speak into existence now. Brittany Howard, come on by. Yes. Our black queer sister, come on. She's also from Nashville. She's from the South like us. Come on now. We need her on the show.

Well, these were all wonderful. Thank you all for sharing those. And listeners, as always, we want to hear what you're feeling or not feeling this week. What's your vibe? So check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. That's our show. Thank you for enjoying this ride. Hooray, hooray, hooray. We did it. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and leave a review. And most importantly, tell a friend.

Huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer Sam Kiefer, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Productions.

And don't forget, we want to hear from you. You can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram, on Blue Sky if you want to find me, at Zach Staff, at Sam Sanders, and at The Ferocity. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod. Stay tuned. We'll see you next time.

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