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Ladies, sisters, gentlewomen, greetings. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford, and you're listening to Vibe Check. This is a slightly different configuration. Zach, you're back in LA from Bali, but Saeed, you're in New York. Yep.

And I am in the land of Petey Pablo. North Carolina, raise it up. Oh, duh. That was not the reference I was expecting. But it's the reference you needed. I thought you were going to give us like Tar Heel. You know, I think North Carolina as a whole state is just one giant born-again Christian. That's what it is.

I will tell y'all a bit later on this episode why I'm here. But with that, let's set up this conversation. We have a lot to get to this episode. We are going to continue the chat that we began last week on the anti-war protest sweeping college campuses across the country because that story is not going away. It's actually getting bigger.

At the time of taping, and we should say that we're taping this on Tuesday of this week around 1230 Eastern Time. As of now, protesters at Columbia have occupied that school's Hamilton Hall, which has been occupied several times before in Columbia's history over the Vietnam War, over apartheid in South Africa, and more. So we're going to talk about that, get the latest. But then after that, we're going to switch it up and talk about a woman I cannot protest anymore.

Her name is Zendaya. Her new movie, Challengers, is the sexiest thing I have seen on the screen in a while. Zach, you can attest, huh? Oh, yes, I can now attest. I flew back from Asia, and the first thing I did was see Challengers, which I'm very excited that we can talk about. But mostly, I'm excited to talk about the Queen Zendaya, who I said weeks ago, and I thought about this this morning, but I mentioned weeks ago that I had a dream about her, that I was in a throuple with her and Tom Holland. So, you know...

A vision. I forgot about this. What? A vision. Yeah. I remember it. I remember it. Was it a fruitful, productive throuple? It was... I will say this, not to, like, disclose all of my tea. It was very non-sexual. I was just, like, in this relationship with them, and we were, like, going to events together. And I just was like... Oh, an emotional throuple. It was an emotional throuple. A platonic one. We were just, like, together. Okay. But we were together. Okay. But it felt like the movie Challengers. I'm now realizing, now that I've seen it. Like, it is...

Oh, okay. You're eating churros together. I love it. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. So we're going to talk about her and that movie and how she is a special kind of movie star that is giving me. She is that girl. She is. She's giving me Julia Roberts energy. Yes. Yes. I like her a lot. But before we get into all of that, let's check in. Ladies, how you feeling? What's your vibe? Saeed from New York. What's the vibe?

Hello, yeah, I've been in New York for the last couple of days. I spent most of yesterday in Harlem doing research for the book I'm working on a chapter, I think I've mentioned it before, about Langston Hughes and the Harlem Renaissance and my time in Harlem. And I was supposed to go to the Schomburg Center to do archival research, and it's closed, and I was like, great. But then a friend mentioned that the Met Museum has a show right now called Harlem.

Harlem Renaissance and transatlantic modernism. So I just went downtown and went to the Met, and it was just wonderful. It was just really incredible. I mean, one, I was seeing in-person paintings that I've seen pictures of over the years, like the big, beautiful portrait of Marian Anderson in that red gown you might have seen before. To see that in person, video footage of Josephine Baker perform,

Performing, you know, an original copy of God's trombones, a first edition of Their Eyes Were Watching God. It was just really incredible. But something I wanted to share that I never thought about before. As you're kind of going through, you're seeing all the different pieces, you know, you see where they're being loaned from.

And most of this exhibit, they're being loaned from HBCUs. And I got the book about this. Yeah, okay. I'm glad it's not just me. Because they're not going to have it on their campus? Exactly. So I've been reading and learning more about the show. They have an accompanying podcast that's great that's called Harlem is Everywhere. I recommend people listening to it. And as it turns out, we all owe a great debt to HBCUs because after the Harlem Renaissance, we make it into the 30s, the 40s, and the 50s,

museums like the Met were not collecting that art from that movement. HBCUs would. So they've been holding on to all this art all this time and like now it's kind of getting its shine. So shout out to HBCUs. Thank you for protecting our culture. I'm so glad that you're bringing up this history because HBCUs aren't just, you know, educational institutions but they're

also archives. So the places where Black people were allowed to go. I mean, so for 170 years, they have been the places of collecting Black histories and Black art. And that's why the Met has to loan them now. They've taken them on loan and hold them. And we have to also hold, there's a lot of people that have really helped bring to light this history. Thelma Golden from the Studio Museum in Harlem,

Our dear friend Kimberly Drew, a lot of these people have brought to light this kind of complicated history of art collection and Blackness. That was a, I felt like a door opened in my brain where I was like, oh, even if you do not go or teach at an HBCU, an HBCU is informing our culture and our lives. And I think that's very beautiful. Yeah.

My dad wanted me for the longest to go to Prairie View in Texas and HBCU. And then for a second, I wanted to be in the marching band at FAMU in Florida. Because FAMU had the wildest one. Iconic. And I still imagine an alternative life path where I went to FAMU, HBCU'd it up. But yeah, support your local HBCU if you have one. Support them. Yes. Zach, what's your vibe? Amen.

Oh, my vibe is back. I'm back here. I love that breathy little sigh. It's kind of like, I guess the vibe is bittersweet. Like, I'm very happy to be back. It was the perfect amount of time away. What wasn't perfect was it takes...

30 hours to get from LA to Bali, which is Bali is very far away. What's the time zone difference? The time zone difference. Oh girl, I think it's 15 hours and you're also in the future. So when I left, I had a layover in Australia. When I left Australia, uh, Sunday morning at 7 30 AM, I arrived in LA at five 45 AM.

the same day. So it's like, how? Your brain is like, what is going on? So it's very, you know, that type of time change is very new for me. I had never been to Asia before. It was very exciting to experience. But also I'm like, I need to go to bed. I need to be back on like a regular schedule.

Because we'd throw around jet lag, but you experienced actual jet lag. For real jet lag. It's about the time difference. Huge, huge, huge. But the one thing I have to say, I've meant much to say about Bali, and I love, Syed, you sharing tidbits about your experience in Bali in last week's episode, which I listened to, because those were so true. It was way queerer there than I expected. It's very gay. And there's a reason why my weirdness expresses itself. Yeah. Okay. But the one takeaway I had is...

and this goes back to my saying that Saeed Jones is always right. And I'm going to make a blanket statement. It's not true fully, but there are big parts of it that are true. But the people on that island that were the rudest to me and people around me were the Australians. Girl, really? Wait, is this a thing? Yes. Oh, yes. But here's my question. Okay, because when I run into Australians on holiday in America, they're always jolly.

Well, here's the thing. So this is 2012. I spent about three months in Southeast Asia, part of it in Thailand and part of it in Indonesia. Because of proximity, think of it this way. For Australians, they treat Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, that's like their Caribbean.

So, like, think about, like, how Americans act, you know, and just kind of, like, yeah, there is an obnoxiousness there. Okay, I see that. Yes, it's a very, like, colonial mentality that's really jarring as a Black American to be there and see, like, these Balinese people are so nice, so...

so giving, so lovely, always warm. But then how these other folks who go there and then suddenly their dollar is super powerful, sort of acting like how they imagine wealthy colonialists probably act. And it just was really jarring at times being Black and watching this happen because I was like, why are

talking so crazy to that person? Like even on the plane, they were talking crazy. My final note of this is I do not think all Australians are this way. I was there with Australian friends who are the most lovely people in the world. How people say, I got black friends. I got Australian friends. They're cool. But the ones I was dealing with at some of these resorts, not cool. And it was really Australian until proven innocent. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. What's your vibe, Sam?

I mean, y'all know my vibe. I have been going through it, listeners, but I do want to put it all in perspective. So long story short, this week I have two speaking engagements. On Sunday night, I was in San Francisco to moderate a book event for our dear friend Dan Pashman, host of The Sporkful. His cookbook is out now. It's obviously all about pasta. It's delightful. And I interviewed him and some of the team behind the book.

After that, the next day, I was supposed to get on a plane and come to North Carolina because Tuesday night of this week, I'm interviewing Trevor Noah on the campus of Wake Forest University for that school's face-to-face series. I should have known better than having two events back-to-back like that, but I was like, I can do this. But what happened to me on Sunday, which y'all heard about already, I didn't get enough sleep the night before. I was absent-minded. My flight was delayed, and I lost my own carry-on bag.

No one's fault but mine. Wow. I either left it in the overhead or began walking with it and then just stopped carrying it. I don't know what happened, but when I went to get in the Uber, it wasn't there. You have on your headphones, you're just walking and meanwhile behind you, everyone's like undercover.

Yes, yes. It was wild. So I was already exhausted. Then I was stressed. Then I'm running around to the airport police and they're lost and found and checking with the baggage office. And shout out to Alaska Airlines. They look...

But I was just – all of that made me just a nervous wreck because then I had to go shop for new clothes before this event with Dan. And then just today I was shopping for some other clothes for this event with Trevor. I actually had a moment after our call because I realized I was stressed and overwhelmed, and I was a little bit snippy on the call with y'all. And I finished the call, and I was like, Sam –

Get it together. I said, Sam, this might be your first rodeo, but it's not the first rodeo. People have been losing bags since bags have existed.

There is a way out of this. Get it together. And then Zach texted because he always has these words of wisdom. He was just like, take time to breathe. And that's helped. You know, Sam, we all need to do it more. And I think for you and I in particular, having a lot of shared trauma, having grown up in the Lone Star State, we actually can just say, you know what? This ain't Texas. There you go. I got this. I got this. And you know what?

Thank goodness for American consumer capitalism, because any city you're in in this country, you can buy a lot of stuff. You can buy clothes. Bloomingdale's and Target saved my life. J.Crew factory this morning saved my life again. It's going to be fine. Yeah, it will be fine. And you're so right that we should have an abundance mindset in moments of stress and chaos, just even if it's delusional in the moment. I lose things a lot too, Sam. But I replace things a lot too.

lot too, which is a constant kind of argument with me and my partner. But if I do lose something at the airport, I'm always like, I guess that wasn't supposed to come with me to the show. I guess it's supposed to be in New York with me. So something else is supposed to be there for me in New York. This is the thing. It's like stress,

Lack of sleep and anxiety make you think the whole world is a movie all about you. A thriller. That's a good point. And it's like, no, people are living their lives. You go ahead and live yours. Take a breath. Live your life. It ain't the first rodeo. So that's my vibe. It ain't the first rodeo. You're going to make it. You'll be great. You know?

We're going to get going and talk about the show, but also we have some more news. We're very excited. We've mentioned some of our upcoming live shows, and we've got some new tea for you, Boston. That's right. We're coming back, dears, and this time Zach and I are bringing Sam. Zach and I had a...

Wonderful time in Boston last June, and so we're excited to return. We will be there this year, Friday, June 7th, and tickets are for sale now. Get your tickets because it sold out last year. I remember there wasn't an extra seat in that room. It was so fun. I'm so excited to be at the BUR City Space. As y'all know, I had to miss the show last year due to some family stuff.

But B.U.R. is near and dear to my heart because that is where I got my start in radio. My last semester of grad school, I interned four days a week at W.B.U.R. walking across the bridge every day to get to work. So I'm excited to be there. It's going to be a great show. Oh, my God. And Zach, we can take Sam to that Mexican place and get those big margaritas again. Oh, this is going to be good. Y'all have a copy of us. We had a time. The hangover I have seen in Austin exists today.

So we will be there, Boston. Again, that is Friday, June 7th. And then some more news. New York City, we are coming to you for the Tribeca Audio Festival. That will be Sunday, June 9th. Tickets are for sale now. And can we tell them the news? Can we share? Yeah. We will be in conversation with none other than Lena Waithe.

Hollywood, TV, icon, producer, actor, comedian, writer, just doing it all. Emmy winner. She's a good friend. Emmy winner. Emmy winner. Good friend. Also, it turns out she and I look like cousins. If you look at two pictures of us right next to each other, we very much look like we're related. I love it.

So that will be really fun. And again, that is Sunday, June 9th. And we've already mentioned Los Angeles. We will be at the Ford on Sunday, July 14th. Tickets will be on sale beginning May 14th. And we'll put the ticket links in our show notes. But we're very excited. Boston, New York, L.A., we're coming for you, baby.

Before we get into this episode, thank all of you who sent us fan mail and a special shout out for those of you who subscribed to our Patreon. If you want to join that group chat, you can find us at patreon.com slash vibecheck. With that, let's jump in, shall we? Let's go. Let's go.

All right. First up today, we want to continue the conversation that Saeed and Sam beautifully began last week as college students continue their protests across the nation and the world. Because as I noticed from the other side of the world, lots of other cities around this world have students marching and protesting at their campuses as well now. So to start, here's an update by the numbers as of Tuesday. There have been about

900 students and faculty members who have been arrested in the United States in just the past 10 days across 50 different schools, with more arrests occurring as we tape in places like Cal Poly Humboldt. And the fallout from these arrests are varying depending on the school you're talking about. So students from George Washington University, Princeton, Vanderbilt, Washington University in St. Louis, Pomona, and some others have been arresting and suspending all their students. Other schools are...

Disciplining by allowing the arrest to happen, but then letting them still graduate like Barnard and Emerson College in Boston. So it's varying on place on how you are treated after the arrest, but the arrests are becoming a little too common and we're going to talk about that. Clips of these protests continue to go viral across social media with various levels of police intervention and brutalization at these schools, with a few having reported physical conflicts between protesters.

protesters on varying sides, and colleges continue to stumble with figuring out how exactly to handle these protests. So to get us going, let's start with some overnight news out of Columbia. Sam, what is happening at Hamilton Hall campus on campus right now? Yeah. So this Monday, Columbia leadership had a deadline for students to leave their encampment on campus.

A lot of protesters left on Monday before that deadline, but several dozen students remained with about 80 tents. And then later that night, some other students from the Columbia University Apartheid Divest University

They broke into Hamilton Hall. This is a large structure on Columbia's campus, and they said that they would stay inside until the school conceded to their demands, which include divestment from companies doing business in Israel. So far, Columbia has said that they will start to review new proposals from students on this issue, and they also have pledged to make a list of their investments available to students

and provide resources toward health and education in Gaza, but they have not said yes to divesting yet. As of now, the students are still in Hamilton Hall, and NYPD says they have been talking to Columbia leaders daily, but that they will not go to Columbia until they are called by leadership to be there. So as of taping right now, the students are still there, and we don't know what happens next.

Yeah, and strikingly, as you all know and Zach just mentioned, I mean, since Sam and I recorded last week, nearly a thousand students, faculty members have been arrested in these protests. But, you know, Columbia University, that administration was the first.

to call the police on their own students. And it's really striking that we've learned more in the reporting. As we mentioned last week, you know, the NYPD was like, listen, the students look peaceful to us. I don't know. Literally. Now that we're here, if you say they're trespassing, they're trespassing. But also significantly, the New York Times reported that the faculty senate

told the university president before the police were called, like, do not call the police. We don't think that's a good idea and we don't support it. So now the faculty Senate is also very frustrated for that reason. And just, it feels like so clear to me that if students feel that they are going to be arrested, beaten, I've seen students tasered, you know, for protesting and exercising their constitutional right on campus greens, then it's like, well, why not

occupy a building. What else can they do if they're going to call the cops anyway? And so it just ensures escalation. Well, and here is the, not even irony, but historical precedent to what these students are doing at Columbia.

Hamilton Hall has been occupied by student protesters in the 60s, in the 70s, in the 80s, and the 90s. They did it to protest the Vietnam War. They did it to protest apartheid in South Africa. It's happened before. And what's wild is that, according to this history, at least once before, to get these students out of Hamilton Hall –

Police went through underground tunnels on Columbia's campus and went up in through the ground to get them out. There are underground tunnels at Columbia.

They were like, oh, we can get to you via the sunken place. As it turns out. Yeah. It's wild. Oh, my gosh. It's wild. It's so wild that Columbia still seems to be leaning in to their bad decisions while other universities are sometimes beginning to do a turnabout. Although we've seen some schools doing tear gas programs.

Greg Abbott in Texas has really cracked down on UT Austin. It's hit or miss. The new president at OSU, for example, and I think it's a similar rhetoric at the president of Emory University in Georgia. Both of those presidents are like they're leaning in like pretty boldly, unapologetically. So it's.

And we cannot forget that this is an election year. And if you are a Republican on the ballot this November, you want to look tough on, quote unquote, outside. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah, that's such a good point, Sam, because we could argue and we will argue that these protests and where they're at and how they're being treated is an expression of that state and city's political ambitions right now. You look to Chicago, deeply blue, you know, Governor Pritzker's there.

People want him to run for president. Northwestern University, one of the more famous universities in the state, is working with protesters. They're saying, stay here till June 1st. We're not calling the police. Really? Enjoy this part of your education. Okay. So there's like a weird way in which it's shifting. But Columbia is in New York City. So why are they treating the students this way? I'm still not understanding why. But Saeed, you were at a university campus in the past week. I think it was Harvard. Tell us about that visit. What did you see there?

Well, frankly, I snuck onto Harvard's campus. Okay. Because the campus was already – it was the first day. I think the student encampment had started like at 11 a.m. and by then it was the evening. And so Harvard Yard – it's very enclosed. Yeah.

It's very much like set aside from the city. And so they're able to just like lock up the campus. But I was able to encounter a lax security guard and kind of talk my way in. But I noticed there was not a police presence there that evening. And, you know, it was, you know, obviously I am a teacher and I care about education so much. But it is hard to understate.

What it feels like the moment you walk into an encampment and you see students studying, you see students making sure people have food, what do you need, taking care – oh, here's our little first aid center. They set up a little lectern so that people could take turns giving speeches, reading poems. I just –

I just felt so emotional and so protective of these students, like immediately. And actually, I wanted to read because I've been reading the Harvard Crimson newspaper online. And I want to shout out student journalists at all of these schools have frankly been doing a much better job than reporters at national outlets. But this is what one student said to the Harvard Crimson. Her name is Noah Shapari. And she said,

You know, listen, this is a concern that I have. I want to graduate. Being here is a huge opportunity for me that I want to complete. But she said and continued, but for me, it's like my degree does not matter. Hopefully I graduate. Hopefully they give me a degree. But my degree does not matter in comparison to the lives of 34,000 people.

So that's the risk I'm willing to take. It is so moving to see young people so deeply understand and enact their understanding of human rights in our connection. Yeah. Saeed, I love that you're bringing up that these young people are understanding the gravity of the situation because I think a lot of young people are always treated as if they don't have a long sight to their future. They're not thinking about the world around them. But what they're encapsulating right now is that

Gen Z especially doesn't really have a future unless they fight for it. And they're seeing that expressed in the Gen Alpha children that are dying in mass in Palestine. So for them, you know, as we've continued to ignore their calls for action, when you think of Greta Thunberg years ago, a Gen Z kid saying, climate change, we got to do something, that

even raising the alarm around Black Lives Matter, you got to do something. They were speaking to that they wanted a future. And now with Palestine, they see a similar cause of being like, we don't have tomorrow promised. And we're seeing that play out in the Middle East. So of course, screw this degree. If they can't live, what says we can? So I think they're understanding the reality of the world. And I think that's really incredible in this moment to see that expressed by these young people.

And I think what a lot of these young people are seeing is a lot of the older adults around them not thinking about or talking about them with respect. The University of Florida had a statement this week about their protesters, and a spokesperson, Steve Orlando, said, quote, "...the University of Florida is not a daycare, and we do not treat protesters like children. They knew the rules, they broke the rules, and they'll face the consequences."

This is what I still find frustrating. There is this effort to paint these students as immature, childish babies, but they know what they're doing, and they're being very forthright about what they're trying to do, and they're telling you what they're fighting against. And when they say what they're fighting against, it kind of makes sense. How can you disagree with a student saying, yeah, I don't want my tuition dollars invested in weapons manufacturing? That's a pretty reasonable ask.

When you read reports of, this is just one example that has been on my mind that we learned in the last week, you know, a mass grave.

being found under what was Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. And many of the bodies were clearly hospital patients. They're in their hospital gowns. Some of these people had their catheters still in. Some of these bodies apparently like signs that some people were buried alive. When you see that, when you become aware of it, it's like, how could I not change tact? It demands something of a conscious observer, you know? And I think students are...

frankly, being much more mature than many adults when handling this conversation. And so we have on the one hand, state and local leaders being dismissive, flippant and disrespectful to these protesters. But on the other hand, we have a lot of facets of American journalism looking the other way. You know, this past weekend was a White House Correspondents' Dinner and

And you saw these scenes of people walking into these fancy events in their ball gowns in Texas, ignoring the protesters. You saw a speech from Colin Jost of SNL palling around with Joe Biden, calling him a decent, decent man. And it just felt like tone deaf and not the right moment.

Sam, you pointed out the history of activism that very much informs this moment as well. But also, you know, something that's been on, I think, a lot of people's minds is like, wait, it's almost the end of the semester. I mean, that article that I read from the Harvard Crimson, it's about the fact that students are having to study for their exams in the middle of the encampment because it's exam week, the semester's over. There's a different scenario in which, like, university administrators could have respected the students and

and just kind of waited. I understand there would be some parameters for how they would want this to go, but it seems like you could have waited it out, and then the students would have gone off to take their damn finals, graduated, and then left for the summer. But instead, because of the way administrators have escalated, you know, it's getting really tense, really scary, and who knows how this will end. And I also want to point out the anniversary of the Kent

state shooting massacre that a lot of people refer to when we see the cops and National Guard being called in. That was on May 4th, 1970, by the way. So it's another situation where, again, it's like, gosh, this university could have just waited like one more week and four young people would still be alive. So we're not even learning from the history that's right in front of us. Yeah.

We are. And then something else that we're not learning from, from a journalistic perspective and even a cultural perspective, is that as I was watching the news from afar and then reentering America, a phrase popped up over and over that really took me back to my times as a reporter in the Black Lives Matter movement.

And it's this phrase called outside agitators. So I'm sure you've both seen it where they're saying the protests of outside agitators, they're the ones escalating. That's why the police need to go on. This is a very old tool to allow police to enter and brutalize people because what it does is it takes away the student veneer of what's happening and says these are people, adults coming from somewhere else in the city with bad intentions and they're really coming here to shake things up.

Yeah. And the history of this goes back to the civil rights movement, because back then the quote unquote outside agitators were folks from the north who came down to protest. Yeah. And I think that whenever I hear someone in leadership use the word outside agitator, it's

my spidey sense tingles. It feels off. Yeah, it should feel off. And something else you can glean from the Black Lives Matter movement, a very recent that should have you be like, spidey senses are off here with how this is being reported and discussed, is outside agitators and also the calling of these protests as anti-Semitic as a blanket statement. Of course, anti-Semitism has popped up in these protests, just like racism has, just like so much has happened. But the general sentiment is not an anti-Semitic effort. These are Jewish student-led groups talking about ishness

Israel, the same thing happened in Black Lives Matter with calling it racist by saying Black Lives Matter is against white people because they're not saying white people's names. And I think you got to, when you see these things being reported, especially widely like they are, you have to think something's off here and question it. Well, and I keep going back to this article written by Lydia Polgreen that we cited last week, but the title of it is the student-led protests aren't perfect. That doesn't mean they're not right.

You'll never have a protest movement where everyone is batting a thousand the whole time. You will always have a few folks stirring up shit. It doesn't mean the cause is not righteous. And to antisemitism, you're right, Zach. It's really hard to say all of these protests are antisemitic when you see Jewish-led student groups out there arguing for a ceasefire, arguing for freedom for Palestine. And so, yeah, it's – I don't know how this ends.

And I don't know what happens next, but I do know that this is a moment for us to start thinking about getting the framing and the language right. And there's so much stuff that is sensational around the margins that social media and TikTok and Twitter pumps up and pumps up and pumps up. But that is not the reality for the majority of these campuses or these protesters. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess two things I would say. One, I wanted to read a tweet from Dr. Zachary Berger. He said, I am so sick of the moral panic about everything but killing people.

There are disturbing and unproductive slogans being used, and we can have that conversation. But the conversation we need to have is about 34,000 dead people. The conversation we need to have is about RAFA being bombed right now as we speak. And I just, you know, we have to understand the significance of what's happening in real time and the understanding that these students are giving all—

all of us an opportunity to think about how we are implicated in what's happening in our name and in our money, you know, and that's what they're begging us to interrogate, you know, our own decisions. And then the second thing I would just say is look at what's going on at the schools in your own community, you know, look at your local news. Obviously, you know,

Schools like Harvard and Columbia are getting a lot of attention. But please check in on your own academic communities. See if there are bail funds that you can support for many of these young people who have been arrested, for example. I want people to check on that. And this happened during BLM as well. The people so concerned over property damage –

I'll say this one thing about Hamilton Hall. It's been occupied before. It'll probably be okay. It'll be okay. They've been doing this since the 60s, baby. It's gonna be okay. They're gonna patch the windows and get to business. They're gonna make like Biden and build back better. They'll be okay, honey. And now we wrap.

Oh my gosh. And now we have to wrap. But that is a great place to end on with the fact that buildings can be rebuilt. People cannot be brought back to life. And now we've got to take care of human life. And that's it? That's it. All right. Well, with that, we're going to take a quick break, but stay tuned. We'll be right back with a little dessert. A little dessert? A treat? Oh, implies the end of the whole meal. She's a whole meal. I was like, I don't know. She's much more than just a dessert. She's a meal. So stay tuned. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

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All right, my loves, we are back. And since the movie Challengers starring Zendaya and two white men is in theaters right now, we figured... They're there. Apparently. I've seen pictures. We figured now would be a great time to talk about Zendaya, as I call her, her, her, her.

I love that Megathysian song. But in particular, we wanted to talk about why and how Zendaya is so good at being a celebrity. Because she's in a moment, and I just think it almost feels like unanimous support for her. But, you know, it's like an opportunity to think about, like, how did she get here, actually? Because celebrity doesn't just happen like this. Is that fair to say? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and she's been working at this for a while. Y'all can recall she was a child Disney star. She's been hustling and in the game for a bit. Yeah. Yeah. And she also, I mean, if you want to look at like the history of her, her career, she was Disney star and then she used the movie The Greatest Showman to really break out of that mold and that that.

movie was huge, but also the soundtrack was one of the biggest soundtracks of the year and she sang on it. So it helped reimagine her and the puppet guy. And then from there she has become... Euphoria really did it too. Yeah. And I was going to say, and then following that, I think the decision to play Rue in...

Euphoria, which of course won her two Emmy Awards, also was a savvy decision when you're trying to move from child star to announce yourself like, I'm also a serious actor, so I'm going to play this character who is just as difficult as can be. And we should be clear here. She held that show together because it was an unwieldy mess. And the only thing that could be coming back was her. She was so good in it.

Well, let's get into the present moment. So, Challengers, this new movie, made $15 million at the box office, which is pretty impressive. It came out on top. The praise, again, for Zendaya's performance is unanimous. Have either of y'all seen the movie? Oh, I've seen it. I've seen it. I really enjoyed it. And this is the kind of movie that I've been longing for, to make a return to theaters. You know, I've talked about it on this show before.

how movies made for grown folks have been in short supply. You're getting a lot of Marvel movies and that kind of mid budget level, smart, sophisticated film. We see less of them in theaters. So to see a film like challengers in that mold, make that much money and it's opening weekend with very adult themes and

I think it's a good sign for the box office. I can recall this last Oscar season when our friend Cord Jefferson won his screenplay award for American fiction. He urged Hollywood and he said, instead of making one $200 million movie, how about make $20, $10 million movies? Now this film was more than 10 million, but the fact that something that wasn't a big Marvel S blockbuster could capture our attention for at least a weekend is

That's a good sign for me in terms of just the movie industry. Absolutely. And this is for more reporting on the box office numbers. Women made up 58% of the ticket buyers over the weekend. And they also skewed younger overall. 41% of audiences for this movie over the weekend were between the ages of 18 and 24. Zach, let me turn to you because that –

Seems like a big deal, right? I feel like when I think of 1824, they don't go to the movies, right? Isn't that the whole thing? Oh, no, that's so true. So what we're seeing is a really, really interesting trend in Holly right now with who is showing up to the box office and for who they do show up for. So for years, we've been thinking, oh, due to streaming, young people grew up on streaming. You know, you look at Gen Alpha, Gen Z, they're pretty familiar. Netflix is a common place.

place for them or VOD, video on demand, has always been around during their lifetimes. So they stopped going to the theaters as much. Theaters was like a millennial kind of pastime as we've talked about on the show. However, we're seeing certain stars are beginning to become movie stars and they're opening up box offices in these huge ways. So another person, Sidney Sweeney, her movie Anyone But You, has grossed over $200 million. You could not have told me once I saw that trailer because that trailer was abysmal. Exactly. It was pretty awful. But,

You know, Zendaya, she saw that roll out. You know, they moved Challengers to this year. I think it last year was originally supposed to come out, then they moved it around. Oh, interesting. And they really tapped into the social media of it all. I mean, her outfits, which I think we're going to talk about later, really helped fuel a social media culture around her that has really made everyone pay attention to her. She showed up to Indian Wells, the tennis tournament I was at. She was there days after I left, and I was so mad because I was like, I would have died to be in that stadium when she walked in. But yeah, and she did something that, you know,

Sydney Sweeney's Anyone But You is a similarly horny movie, but it's within the rom-com genre. Which is like, yeah, will they or won't they? And where are they heading towards in terms of love? This movie, Challengers, is very complicated. It's like a dark drama that's very sexy, kind of thriller-ish. And the movie, I will say, is doing something that I want queer movies to do more of, which is to really meditate on desire the whole time.

time like really edge the audience for 90 minutes to two hours you know to be a little graphic because why are you moving your hands since you're like hands above the desk Zach but no but I do agree with your point because I would I would like to see I know you like this has a thriller element to it it's not necessarily like a full-on thrill but I would like to see thrillers in particular like the dark

You know, psychosexual thriller was really a thing of the 90s. Well, they won't they? Yeah. Yeah. And will they survive they? You know, like, that's really fun. But I also wanted to point out over the weekend, Vulture published an article with the title I love. It's titled The Coiled Ferocity of Zendaya. I was like, oh, you better give me coiled ferocity. And here's just a bit of what the writer Matt Zoller Seitz had to say about

Quote, we will give a star anything if we enjoy being around them, if we are given the space to find ourselves in their impassive stares and unexpected silences. He continues, most important of all, when Zendaya is really cooking, you don't catch her acting. She's just your girl up there, moving through the story and making you want to root for her. I think that that is a pretty accurate assessment. Well, and that whole wanting to root for her thing.

energy, it channels and it harkens back to the glory days of Julia Roberts' film career. There was a moment in the 90s where she was untouchable and no matter what she did, you wanted to see her. Vulture also called Zendaya a cover-only star, which means if she's going to be in the magazine at all, it's on the cover. She's at that level where it's like, you just want her. And I found myself, and Zach, you can attest to this probably,

Whenever she's on screen in the movie, I'm really just looking at her. It's as if the other ones aren't there for a little bit. It's wild. She is magnetic. Yeah. And to that point, that's why we draw a comparison between her and Julia Roberts. Is that, you know, there are many movie stars. Not as many as there used to be, but there are a lot of people that are famous in films, sure. But there's something about a star that just vibrates on the screen that is magical.

so special and different. And Julia Roberts was like Zendaya in that they played characters that if you really thought about it, you wouldn't usually root for them. They're the bad person. Zendaya, she's the villain in this movie. Yeah. Exactly. She's a villain. So they both play villains, but villains you want to have a drink with, hang out with. And that takes a very special star to do that.

Absolutely.

She's kind of the space in which they are flailing in. Yeah, that's really interesting. The other thing about that Vulture article that I thought was interesting is that that writer mentions a comparison to Julia Roberts as well, but also Tom Cruise and Will Smith at the peak of their careers. And it's like, oh, it is so interesting.

So, and we're about to talk about race and colorism, but the thought, finally, of a young black actor beginning to enter that space that we haven't seen a black person in basically since Will Smith, that's pretty exciting. It's pretty exciting. Yeah. And this is her first movie that she's opening.

And so she's a producer on the movie. Oh, wow. Success of this movie. Movies never build itself as the Zendaya movie. I see. Similar to Sidney Sweeney. And now we're seeing these euphoria kids, you know, Jacob Elordi. They're all like opening theaters with big numbers. And it's now getting this new crop of sexy stars. Yeah. Okay. Well, we had two more conversations we wanted to get to about this. In 2018, Zendaya said, I,

And when she said that in 2016, I don't even think she was 21 yet at the time. And so I just, I also wanted to make note, like, I think part of the reason, and I remember when she made these comments, she said,

That changed my perception of Zendaya. Because I'm like, well, of course people like you. You're a pretty light-skinned, skinny black girl. To a certain extent, you're set up to kind of do better. I see why you're a fashion doll. You can fit into the sample sizes. But to hear her on her own

not just once, you know, consistently acknowledge her understanding of colorism and race with, you know, real depth. I feel that's also a part of why she's good at being a celebrity. She's intelligent. She understands the context in which she's living. She understands the context and she talks about race. But I'll point this out. When you look back over the movies she's made...

She's really only made one film that we could call definitively black, and it was her biggest flop, Malcolm and Marie. Y'all recall that movie on Netflix? Just not good. Our pandemic movie. Our pandemic movie. Let's be real. I tried to watch it. Couldn't get through it. Not good. But Angelica Jade Bastion in Vulture, in another piece, also raised this question. We can love Zendaya. We can respect her, but...

do we want a black actress at the top of her game right now to do more films that are quote unquote black? And I kind of ask myself that hypothetical and I think I say yes. She don't have to. She didn't owe me that, but I want to see it. Yeah, I guess my pushback to Angelica's point there, and you know I do like a lot of her writing, is honey, the moment we have to have a conversation about what constitutes a black movie, we've lost the conversation. Well, you can go on for hours, yes.

yeah yeah if she's in it and she's doing work she believes in that's a black movie that's how i feel there you go yeah because then i also feel then i worry about you know we're putting her in like a stacy dash box or hallie berry box where you know they become these these darlings in mainstream culture and then when they're not the exact political framework that you want them to be then they kind of all blows up and then it becomes about the conversation which is why i think she's so intelligent like she has so many touchstones of look

at of lighter skin people and what they've gone through and she's like you know what let's get ahead of this i know what your girl's gonna say but again i am a hollywood actress i am working through a system that is deeply flawed and i'm trying to make the best work i can through that and i have i think that respect for that i do respect how a lot of the folks on her team and her core and zach can speak to this is black folks and it's black queens like she is surrounded by law roach being certainly one of the most prominent members of her team yeah yeah to

To that point, you know, and this maybe transitions us to fashion, is that Law Roach is her best friend and her main collaborator for fashion. Her best friend Darnell is kind of her right hand on everything. And he is the chair umpire in the movie. He was so good. She keeps black.

that are in our networks. We as Black gay men, we are not far from them. We are friends of friends of these people. These are her confidants and the people leading her. And that just speaks volumes of her, I think. I don't like saying that statement because I think I hear it on TikTok, but it's like, every girl has a good gay. And it's like, that is also true. You need a good gay and a good queer person in your corner if you're going to navigate Hollywood. Well, because, yeah, and I think, you know, to get to the question that we've been working through here, which is why is she so good?

at being a celebrity, I think one way to answer that question, and this is just true not just for celebrities but any person, that you're like, wow, they really have it going on. They're a glow. Look at the people in their lives. Look at their mentors. Look at their close circles. Look at the parents that they turn to. And I just think every time I get a glimpse

of the people that Zendaya, including her little cutie patootie British hootie, Tom Holland, you know, every time I get a glimpse of the people in her life, I'm like, they seem wonderful too. So it kind of makes sense, you know, that it's working. And here's how I can tell she has a good team around her. She's not involved in drama. There are a lot of celebrities at her level. Child, listen, let us knock on wood. Oh, Lord Jesus. But you're right. You're right.

I don't know of one feud that Zendaya has been in. Even when Law Roach had his retirement, which was a bit of a controversy, she was out of that too. Yeah, she found a way to be present in that, but still in and out. She seems much more hyper-focused on just doing the work than a bunch of other celebrities in her lane. And I appreciate that.

And for our last point on the, you know, thesis, the old, the homage that this conversation has rightly been to Zendaya, what is it about style and fashion? Because here's the thing. Pretty people in Hollywood wear pretty and expensive clothes on red carpets

Every day that ends in Y. You know, like, that's not unique at all. There are many people who also dress consistently very beautifully. Zach, in particular, I wanted you to answer this. What is it about Zendaya's long-running collaboration with Law Roach in particular that does feel different? Like, I haven't really been able to explain it.

How I process it, because I'm obsessed with it, is that they're just storytellers. Law Roach is an incredible storyteller. Zendaya is an incredible storyteller. And the fashion for them is just another conduit to extend the story. So if you look at Challengers, her fashion has just been an extension of the film itself in a way to tease parts of it, tease topics and themes. And I think within that is also a sense of camp. And you think about when she was in the Met Gala and she dressed as Cinderella with Law Roach next to her. And she literally had the lighting on her.

And the Joan of Arc look is one of my top five Zendaya looks, by the way. I love that. So there's all these examples of her telling stories, stories we know, stories we want to know. And I think that's what just enraptures us with her because, you know, she's so stunning. Like, there's the joke on Twitter, like, the fashion girls are lucky she chose to be an actor, not a model, because she just killed the game. Say your prayers. She's aware of that.

and she could wear like couture that's just very stunning and chic and makes her look great um but instead she's choosing storytelling even wearing her movie poster as a sequence dress the other day i think it was the chicest dress but it was a really fun campy nod and i think that's why we like her is that she's beautiful she can make choices that none of us could ever imagine and she does make those choices but they're fun and they're in jest and they invite us in

I get it. So it's not just pretty, it's giving us a narrative to engage. Okay. I've been scrolling through a lot of her red carpet looks as we're having this conversation. And the thing I noticed is that in every look, no matter how out there, even the Joan of Arc metal outfit, she looks comfortable and like at peace.

And now that I think about it, I've never seen Zendaya look uncomfortable. Never seen her look flustered. You know, some people, you put them in a costume that's too epic and...

They look like a dog wearing shoes. They're like, how do I pull this off? She has this ease of movement that, again, channels Julia Roberts. She just feels so comfortable in her skin. I love it. She wears the clothes. The clothes don't wear her. It also feels that applies to the bigger idea here, which is that she's wearing celebrity clothes.

It's not wearing her. She doesn't seem overburdened, overwhelmed. And I think, you know, the ease is very attractive. You know, I think we all are very drawn to people where it just looks like she's not really straining, you know, and you move toward that. Well, Zendaya and all the people who make Zendaya thrive and sparkle, we salute you. We salute you. We do. Okay, we're going to take a break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with recommendations.

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This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. All right, we are back. Before we end the show, as we always do, I want all of us to share a thing that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. Zach, you're up first.

So while I was traveling on this mini, mini hour flight to Asia, I watched so much TV. I got through Baby Reindeer, which you watched, Sam. A very interesting show. But the show that really captured my heart just because I was so surprised by it when I watched it but also had never heard of it is a show called Culprits on Hulu. Are you guys familiar with this? Mm-mm.

No. So it's a show that was made in the UK. It stars Nathan Stewart Jarrett. He is an actor, a black queen like us. He was in the movie Femme, which is a movie I talked about when I went to the Berlin Film Festival. It's a movie about a drag queen fighting back against her attacker. He's a star in it opposite George McKay, who's a big star now out of the UK. But this show, Culprits, was made around the same time. It's a story of a black gay man who is a heistman that's part of an

like an underground group, they make a really big heist and it sends all their lives into huge turmoil. But it's told through his lens and his partner and their Black children and as he goes to kind of figure out this like fallout and deal with it. And so if you like a thriller, if you like a crime story, but you also want it to be gay, but gay in a way that's very subtle, like, you know, he has a partner, it's not a big deal. He has kids, it's not a big deal. It just is a thing that's part of his universe.

and it does propel story forward um i would definitely say to take a look it's really good there's only one season and what is wild about it is that disney plus commissioned it for the uk so it's a gay crime show on disney plus made huh because for the longest time disney plus would not uh have put something super gay on the platform here no that's what i was so shocked with i was like wait you can have this much gayness in the uk but not here in america so definitely like gay thieves we like

like gay thieves we can do that Saeed what's your recommendation this week

I thought I would do something a little different and read an older poem. Most of the poems I've been reading are contemporary poems probably published in the last decade or so. But I thought I would read one of my favorite poems by E.E. Cummings. It was first published in 1952. It's untitled, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of you recognize it. And I would just say, you know...

There's one way to read this as someone speaking to their beloved, but kind of thinking about our conversation about the protests in Gaza. There's also a way to read this in terms of understanding that we are connected. Every child in Gaza is my child. That's how I feel. Every student is my student. So that's kind of one way to imbue the spirit of this poem by E.E. Cummings. I carry your heart with me. I carry it in my heart. I am never without it.

Anywhere I go, you go, my dear. And whatever is done by only me is your doing, my darling. I fear no fate, for you are my fate, my sweet. I want no world for beautiful you are my world, my true. And it's you are whatever a moon has always meant and whatever a sun will always sing is you.

Here is the deepest secret. Nobody knows. Here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud and the sky of the sky of a tree called life, which grows higher than soul can hope and mind can hide. And this is the wonder that's keeping the stars apart. I carry your heart. I carry it in my heart.

I love that poem so much. And if you haven't seen it on the page, I encourage you to check it out because E.E. Cummings work with punctuation and everything's also really interesting. But a beautiful poem. It's a classic for a reason. It sounded like lyrical in the way that Sade would have made it lyrical. Oh, wow. To hear Sade sing this poem. I would love that. Yeah, I would love it. Sam, what's your recommendation for the week?

Yeah, so I mentioned earlier that I'm going to be in conversation with the one and only Trevor Noah tonight, Tuesday night here in North Carolina. And in preparation for that chat, I have been reading his autobiography, Born a Crime. This book was published in 2016, number one bestseller, but I hadn't read it till now. And I really, really like it. You know, celebrity memoirs are hit or miss. Some are great. Many are not. They're great.

This one is just wonderful because Trevor's life story is really, really crazy. The book title is true. When he was born in South Africa, it was illegal for people of two different races to get together. And if they had a kid that was mixed, a lot of these families –

One parent would take them to live in their side of town or mixed and colored children would end up in special orphanages just for them. And so when Trevor Noah was a child, his parents had to hide him.

At his home in Soweto, he couldn't leave the backyard for years while the other kids played outside. And if his mother and his father were out with him, the mother would just have some random light-skinned woman walk with him to pretend that she was his mom and the white dad would walk with him across the street.

That's how wild it was. And so he tells you this story of pushing through that, being uncool, not fitting in with anyone, but rising above it. But he also, before each chapter, gives you a bit of the history of apartheid in South Africa. We all think we know it, but baby, it was worse than you think.

it was worse than you think and he breaks down that history as well and this book is so digestible it goes down really easy and you're constantly reminded over the course of this book why trevor noah is a comedian

He is so funny, but he makes these jokes and stories that work for you and your kids and your parents. It's just easy access for everyone. I cannot speak about this book highly enough. It's called Born a Crime. And I would say for those listening who have kids, it would even work for children in middle school or high school. It is very digestible. I love it. I've heard great things about it. Great things about it. Cool. All right. Well, with that...

Listeners, let us know what you're feeling or not feeling this week, your recommendations. If you've watched Baby Reindeer or Challengers or anything that we've talked about, let us know your thoughts on it, either via email or in the Patreon. Our email is vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Alright, my loves, my hearts that I'm carrying in my heart, that's the show. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love us, if you love Vibe Check and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening app, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, leave a review. Thank you to the many, many people who have left great reviews already. And of course, tell a friend, bully them with your love for us. Bully them with your love. I'm using that. Bully them with your love. I'm using that.

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We want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Keep in touch with us on Instagram, on our new page. It's at vibecheck underscore pod and our Patreon, where for $5 a month, you get direct access to our group chat, patreon.com slash vibecheck. My love, stay safe out there. Take care of each other. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Stitcher.

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