Death and Taxes
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Ladies, ladies, chicas, chicas, what up? What it do? What it do? We gonna make it do what it do. Yeah, yeah. You and that song. I love it. I love it. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. This week, we're talking about Gerard Carmichael's show on Max, which Sam loves.

Loves. Loves so much. Loves it so much that he's being quoted in articles about it. I know, Lord. And then the other person we want to talk about today is Jojo Siwa. I know a lot of our listeners are not 12 or 13, so we'll break down who she is, but she has really shaken the tables of the music industry this week by saying that she's invented a genre called gay pop.

which is a very confusing thing. Shaking the tables is a stretch. She might have kicked one of the legs. Right, she kicked one of the legs. I would say, you know, people used to say, like, the worst thing would be to become, like, the main character on Twitter. JoJo Siwa, it's like she was the main character on TikTok. And the problem with that is

is it's much more brutal than Twitter. Oh, yeah. Those Stitch videos can get long. And the main character, it goes on much longer. So I've been seeing people, you know, and some people have been dragging, some people, like Zach, are spirits more calling in JoJo Siwa's comments on, like, gay pop for, like, over a week now. It's just like, woof. Yeah. Woof. It's been a lot. It's been a lot. And then after we get through all of that with our new brothers and sisters in the, what's, how do we say LGBTQ? My friend says, uh, le jubitaquah. Le jubitaquah. The jubitaquah. Community. Community. Community.

We're going to take it even further and answer an advice question that has been burning in our inbox that we're very, very excited to unleash. So before we do all of that, I have one thing I want to announce. Drumroll, drumroll.

You will see across all of our social media handles today that our first live show is being announced today. And it's for Los Angeles on July 14th. And it will be taking place at the Ford, which if you don't know what the Ford is, it is a beautiful venue that is the sister, in my mind, to the Hollywood Bowl. They're across the street from each other. Tickets are going on sale on May 14th. But I think you can check online and start registering and figure out how you're going to get there now. And if you aren't in LA, don't worry. We have a few more live show announcements coming soon.

It's going to be so fun. And my favorite part of all of this is that when Saeed comes to L.A. for this live show, he's going to get to meet Wesley.

Oh, yeah. It's time. I'm excited about that. Zach can attest. He's a cute dog. He's so cute. I'm excited about that. He's very, very sweet. Very cuddly. Yeah. So with that, how are we doing? How is Wesley, Sam? What's going on in your world? Wesley's working my nerves. He's definitely in his terrible two phase. Just loud. So my vibe with him is just like patience, patience, patience. But besides that, my vibe right now is very underwhelmed.

by one particular movie, and it's got me feeling like we're in this rich cultural moment

That art could respond to, but American art is not doing that. So I saw Civil War this past weekend, the Kirsten Dunst action film in which modern day America falls into civil war. And I wanted to believe in it. I wanted it to be good. And I was expecting to have a film experience similar to the one I had seen Zone of Interest, which is a really powerful commentary on our moment.

Civil War was not that the whole film. They avoid politics so much that.

It was just toothless. And it could have been a discussion of how American politics falls into a state of literal war. But they avoided that and made it one big commentary on the ethics of war photography. And it's like, baby, photographers didn't cause the war. What are you doing here? What is the lesson here? And I'm particularly feeling like the last several years, a lot of American art has

hasn't spoken to the moment. You know, we have to look to films like Zone of Interest to really offer commentary on our times and American popular culture is just missing that moment and not speaking to it. Zach, you saw this as well, right? Oh yeah, I saw the film. I was really excited to see it because it was getting all this hype. It's A24's most expensive film they've ever done.

And most successful. And yeah, it's like, it has Kirsten Dunst in it, who is my favorite. I can never say her name correctly because I call her Kiki, like we're girlfriends. And I went being so excited and then I watched the film and I walked out so annoyed. There's a lot of story issues. Like from a story perspective,

doesn't work like at all the world that they've built doesn't make sense doesn't follow its own logic and then also as a journalist how they present journalism even in this moment which america's fallen makes no sense the one thing i'll say is when you watch this movie notice how they're taking all these pictures and there's a reporter there but no one's writing any notes no one's filing anything no one's sending it any they're just like watching everything it's like no no no how this works is like people this is interesting because and i'm truly not trying to make a pun but i feel

like the reception's actually been very divided, which may be Alex Garland's like, congratulations, you got the point. But, you know, I have a friend who is a photojournalist and she loved it. Her comments was she loved Kristen Dunn's performance as a wary war photographer and I think as a woman photojournalist, she liked that. And then, you know, Jamel Bowie, who a lot of his writing, and he's very interested in kind of, I would say, the living legacy of, in particular, like, Reconstruction and the Civil War and how we live here in the United States.

He seemed to have really liked it too. I'm curious to see it. I'm curious to see where I land. - I want my art to make me question my place in things. And it's possible to leave Civil War if you aren't a photojournalist to think it's not talking about you. And I want some of this work

to make me question myself and my role in these structures and civil war is not doing that whereas zone of interest does yeah and what i was saying i don't think this ruins anything the whole conceit of the movie is that they're in new york and they're trying to get to dc before the western forces invade dc and take over the country and the whole goal is that they need to get an interview with the president of the united states

And you hear that, Conceit, and you're like, oh, well, they must be these famous journalists, which they are, and they have special access. No, they have no access. They're just going down and trying to get in the way. That's not how it works, baby. That's not real. So when it began that way, I was like, this isn't realistic at all. This is not how this works. So anyway.

Saeed, how are you? My vibe is, so I was thinking, I had a moment yesterday where what I would say in the past would be the tremor before an anxiety quake. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder pretty early in life. And what I've learned is that there will be these little triggers that sometimes can be hours, sometimes a couple of days before

before the anxiety really gets going. And, you know, I've just, I've really struggled with it. Anxiety has been nearly debilitating for me at times where I just, I can't function because I get so worked up. It's like the anxiety is spinning so fast. It just shouts down any other thought process. But particularly in the last few months, I've had these moments where I've noticed a tremor. I've had that thought of,

And I've been able to say no. Yeah. The image I have in my head is screaming in a room and I just close the door.

Yeah.

have similar experiences with mental health. I think it's so great when you have a period where you can in real time realize that your approach to the circumstance has changed and like pat yourself on the back for it. I love that. Well, and hearing you talk about this,

It's a thing that I've been thinking about and trying to work through and do myself. It's like when you reach those moments of stress, anxiety, depression, whatever, how can you look outside of yourself, see the situation, and then kind of give yourself a recommendation for how to proceed? I had this moment last week in therapy where for the last few months, I've been kind of fixated on this one thing. And when I have downtime or I'm bored or I'm lonely, I'll think about this event and get mad about it.

And my therapist, Jonathan, bless you, love you, man. He was like, you keep thinking about the event and you get sad about the event and the thing. But how about you get a little mad at your brain for constantly going back there? And how about next time it happens, you say, brain, why do you keep doing that? And I say that. And all of a sudden, it's like I can walk away from it. I can walk away from my negative thoughts and I can see myself outside of them.

It's a little bit of like third person behavior, but like talking to yourself can be really effective. I think that's really interesting because the other thing I've realized is, this is very personal, but so much of my anxiety is connected to not just like disappointing other people, but this deeply innate, and I think it actually will manifest in our conversation about like Jojo Siwa and Gerard Carmichael, this sense that

There's a way in which I could disappoint people in which I would be permanently disinvited from the room. Yeah. In which my, my invitation, my, my, my, my ticket to get to be admitted, you know, to civil society is dependent on me being useful on me being light on me being successful.

And so the other part of this is having to get to the point where I realized that those anxiety tremors are – and it's funny you mentioned the past, Sam. They're past tense. It's like a younger, less established writer named Saeed Jones is like, oh, if I don't write this in this way, then I'm like, no, no, no. We're good. We're good. So it's interesting. Yeah, you have to develop like a sternness. You got to talk to yourself. Talk to yourself. And here's the thing about rooms and being invited. There are other rooms.

There are other rooms and what room do you want to be in? And don't you have your own room? I bet you do. Anywho, Zach, what's your vibe? Oh my God. I mean, to build a bridge off of Saeed Jones, I also have been dealing with anxiety. But this anxiety will surprise nobody because as everyone knows...

World War III and nuclear war is my big. I felt it coming through the zoo. But people, and I got a surprise for everyone else, my number two biggest anxiety in the world is tax day. So both of these things intersected this weekend. Baby, you better follow that extension. Extension, extension, extension. I was just like, how much money do I owe? Why am I even paying this if the world's about to end? What's going on? Iran is doing this, but I'm caring about Uncle Sam. What is happening? Did Zach say I shouldn't have to pay taxes given current events?

Listen, that's what I thought. And that's what I want to share with our listeners today. So I went through that dive. I was like, what happens if war does break out? Do I not have to

have to file on Monday. And guess what, listeners? The IRS is ready. They do have to file. They have a manual they released in 1989 just in case of nuclear war. And you can find this online. It is public information. And that it says if in the case of a nuclear event, taxes will get delayed, but in 30 days, they will be collecting them in the states least impacted that have the highest yield of tax income. Ha ha!

So this is what happens at the end of the world is that taxes continue. The only two truths in this life are death and taxes, baby. Death and taxes. And then after death is taxes. So I'm like, anyway, I've worked up. I've been processing this for days and now I've let it go. I just love how your mind works. I love how your mind works. Like you find these portals.

For discovery. Yeah. In the bleakest. Well, because anxiety will find a will away. This is funny too, because I've started watching the series Fallout on Amazon Prime. Zach recommended it. I'm an episode and a half in. I've really enjoyed it. So it's even funnier now. I'm imagining these people in these bunkers still paying their taxes.

A hundred years after the nuclear apocalypse or whatever. And when you watch that show, they totally are still paying their taxes. They're still very committed to the American project, even though it failed. But anyway. We're done. Thank you for hearing me out. My time has passed by talking about it. Well, I hope listeners you enjoyed our therapy session today. Before we get into the episode, we want to thank all of you for sending us the fan mail. And of course, shout out to those of you who have subscribed to our Patreon. Patron. If you want...

Our Patreon. If you want to join the group chat, you can find us at patreon.com slash vibecheck. We have, so there's two ways, you know, there's a timeline where we're putting in new content. Once a week, I record a video where I read an extra poem and talk about it just for our subscribers. We're also sharing our recommendations. We're going to be doing some advice stuff there. It's really fun and active. And then there's also a group text where

Just like the three of us, except it's our listeners and it's really fun. We're sharing things we're reading. We're answering questions. So again, you can find us there at patreon.com slash vibecheck. But I am so excited because I've got to say, lots going on in the world. But we're going to have a pretty fun episode today. I think we're going to have a, dare I say, a kiki. So let's jump in, shall we? Let's jump. Let's go. Let's go.

All right, listeners. First up, we're going to talk about our dear baby gays. And if you don't know that term, it's a term we use. Deer is a stretch. That's why earlier you were like our queer brothers and sisters. And I was like, uh-uh, it's a community. Some people are just neighbors. Yeah. All my queer folk ain't my deer folk. Okay. Zach is like, y'all. Okay.

We're going to get through this. This is the beginning too. Wow. All right. So as you can tell, we're talking about baby gays, specifically two baby gays who have captured our imaginations the past few weeks. Their names are Jojo Siwa and Gerard Carmichael. These two people are pretty famous and were famous before they came out as queer. Gerard came out in his Emmy award-winning documentary, one-man show special called Ruthannual, which I thought was stunning and beautiful. He has now followed up with that.

with a new show called the Gerard Carmichael Reality Show, which I will let Sam get to describing that in a minute. And then we have on the other side of the table today, Jojo Siwa, who is a young singer, songwriter, performer. She became very famous from the show Dance Moms.

But she came out a few years ago, and in the wake of that coming out, she has rebranded herself as a pop star, which makes sense. You know, child stars do this a lot. Miley Cyrus has done this. Olivia Rodrigo has done this. This is very much par for the course. However, very rarely have we had the crossover of child star to openly queer pop star who thinks that they've created pop music for queer people because that just is silly, and she's facing a

Yeah.

Yeah. And can I say one thing about baby gays? So the thing about the term baby gays, and really it could be, you know, baby trans, baby bi, you know, it's a generalization. My sense is that gender and sexuality exist outside of time.

So when we say baby gays, we're not necessarily referring to young people. JoJo Siwa is, I think, is just barely 21, but Gerard Carmichael is, I think, in his late 30s, right? You could be a baby gay. I know some baby gays in their 50s, for example. So when we say that, we're simply talking to someone who is stepping into this type of sexual or gender expression pretty early on for them. It's not about how old they are.

And I think I actually said this last week. The thing about that is...

There can often be a conflation where like Gerard Carmichael, you're like, you're grown, you're an adult. But at the same time, when it comes to expressing their sexual identity, it's kind of like they're a teenager again in weird ways. So that's what we're pointing attention to. And this is what we want to talk about. It's not just that Gerard came out and JoJo came out. In doing so, they both kind of made spectacles of themselves. Gerard has this reality show that has been embarrassing for himself.

And JoJo has proclaimed herself the queen of gay pop with a lackluster single and some music and visuals and choreo and costuming that has just been ridiculous. So it's about that. It's like both of these individuals trying to come into their own as queer people, but

seemingly embarrassing themselves in the process. Yes. And that, I love that you both set this up like that because what you're getting at is, at its most basic form, adolescence. We all go through an adolescence. And what we're talking about is an identity adolescence, that you start becoming aware of the body, your body, how it moves through the world, what world it's in, and you begin learning. And the issue, what we're seeing play out, it really...

fast paces and a high scale is baby gays are coming out and think they know everything and they don't. So let's zero in on Jojo Siwa just for a moment. She has been working since she was a child. Literally, I think Saeed told me before this, she started getting her hair dyed at two

Her mother started dyeing her hair blonde when she was two years old. And Jojo Siwa kind of made it onto the screen at nine years old. So my goodness. Yeah, so young. So she had this huge career. For years, she ran Nickelodeon, like was running that company and really has made a ton of money. As she's rebranded, people have been really accepting of her, surprisingly. You know, her audience is very young. It was pretty openly. She, of course, faced some backlash, but generally people were...

were really into it because her aesthetic is so fun and campy and commercial and child-friendly. But she's now reimagining herself. And in the midst of that, she has now presented herself as a Gaga mixed with Kiss, mixed with lots of other things. This is a thing. So some of the visuals are crazy. There's one visual she had on some red carpets recently where she looked like she was out of the band Kiss.

You know, the dark, metallic, sparkly look. And she was asked what the reference was there. And she was asked about Kiss. She didn't even know who they were. She didn't know who Kiss was, right? She's released this single called Karma that she performs all over the place. The song is not good. And now folks are saying that she stole it from somebody. There's a 10-year-old version of this song recorded by somebody else with the whole video. And she's just been striking out. And I think the most...

egregious iteration of her outness right now is in an interview she said that she was creating quote gay pop to which everyone said girl get in line you aren't it's even worse because she was like gay pop you know like k-pop which i'm like well k-pop i have a lot of problems with too actually yeah

And what has been stunning about this moment is usually when someone missteps, you know, like Sam Smith, who has come out as part of the community in various chapters of their life, famously said that they were the first queer person to win an Oscar and they weren't. They were dragged for it. This happens a lot. People come out and they don't know their history. However, what I'm seeing these days is that celebrities are responding to Jojo Siwa, specifically people like Tegan and Sarah. Tegan and Sarah responded. Iconic.

queer musicians who were like, what? Posting TikToks being like, we have been doing this forever. So to my sisters, what do you make of this kind of habit we're seeing happen in real time where people don't see the shoulders that they're arriving on? And what do we owe people who came before us when we come out? Because we're still, these are adolescent gay people. They may not know. So with Jojo Siwa in particular, I think it's a little different from Gerard.

Jojo Siwa came out when she was, what, 18, 19? Yeah. She's been on TV, and not just TV, reality TV, where her mother was also a star, which is to say also directly profiting. And I think it's really important to think about... We've learned a lot recently, like shows like Quiet on Set, about child stars and their relationships to their parents, their sense of the world outside of their little Hollywood bubble. I think all of that's really significant. So...

When JoJo Siwa said something so misguided, like an ahistorical, not just ahistorical, but arrogantly ahistorical comment, I said, well, why wouldn't she? You know what I mean? You're 20 years old. You just came out. The thing is, usually when a sheltered, closeted, you know, actual young person comes out, they're making a fool of themselves in front of their friends and family.

In front of their classmates, hopefully in front of a counselor or a mentor. The problem, and I do, I really, I have deep empathy for Jojo Siwa because as soon as I started kind of learning about her, I was like, damn, is there ever a moment she hasn't had a camera in front of her? Could you imagine having a camera and having TikTok and that, like you said, Tegan and Sarah, that level of attention in the first year of your coming out journey?

Of course you're going to make missteps. How could you not? The missteps are in fact a vital part of the process. It's kind of like how boredom is linked to creativity. But yikes, to do it in front of cameras, to do it without people guiding you towards more productive language. Yeah. So I...

I'm looking at Jojo Siwa and actually seeing her having to do two coming outs. She's having to become an adult after being a child star. Absolutely. That's hard. And she's having to become queer after not being out as queer. Yeah.

And both of those things are hard, but it is especially hard for young women who have been child stars to become seen as fully adult women. I had a conversation a while back with Ann Powers, NPR music critic. We were talking about Taylor Swift's newest album and why still to this day some people see her as a kid.

And Anne said something to me that really stuck with me. She said for women pop stars who became pop stars when they were young, for many consumers of their art, they will be girls until they have children. And that is the only way that a really young girl in the spotlight gets to become a woman.

And if you are Jojo Siwa and you're up against that, you're going to fight and fight and fight to be seen as a woman, knowing that like these rules of matriarchy kind of make you seem like less than until you have that step. So she's already dealing with that. And on top of that, you have to be coming out in the midst of all this as well. It's really hard. She has a double burden on her. And I think it would have been easier for her if she were a man.

I think that when you're doing it as a woman, there's just like you are literally holding two pots of water at the same time. So I really feel for her. I also think that, you know, to Said's point, you know, there used to be a time when you just wouldn't see this. I think about my journey of coming out, which took years. Thank God it wasn't on camera. I was a mess. Yeah.

I was a mess and a half, and I had to have some really close friends and family sit me down and help me get myself together. And thank God no one was rolling on that shit. And I feel bad for people like Gerard and JoJo who have tied their coming out stories to their livelihoods. What a tough spot to be in. Yeah. And I would – to take it to Gerard a bit as well, I think it's something they both have in common. That again, I – it's like –

This word's overused too much now, but I do cringe. I mean, it is like, oh, God. But, you know, one thing that I see often, and I certainly did it myself, you know, coming out. Babe, you don't just come out. You're like sticking a rainbow on everything. You know, I always say, and gay men do this in particular, where they're like, all of a sudden, they're like, oh, straight people, straight people, this, oh, breeders. Like, you're just, any opportunity, you can like loudly announce your rejection. Right.

of the closet and the kind of culture that closeted you, you take. And so with both of them, I understand like the expression in extremists. And with Gerard, you know, and it's interesting, like you were pointing out, like the kind of unique gender dynamics for people who present as women. For men, and I would say especially for black men,

You know, we deal when we're coming up with such rigidity. So much of Black manhood is kind of stand up straight and tighten and fixture, you know, like be stone, be almost inhuman. Nothing can phase you. This world is tough for Black men and you've got to be tough in response. So though you could not pay me to watch his show, I think what his version of Jojo Siwa's like, ugh-ness is the messiness, right?

Is the stuff where we're like, this shouldn't be on TV. Why are you showing this? Why do you have Tyler? Why would you? This doesn't make sense. Because I think for him, it's entirely, it's almost like a violent fighting back thing.

of the pain that he's been kind of privately dealing with. I think it's his attempt to kind of let it all hang out. Yeah. I don't love seeing it. I feel less sympathy for him than for JoJo. It seems like JoJo Siwa is hurting no one but herself. Gerard is hurting the folks that he loves. So we've talked before about how on this reality show...

He had previously confessed his romantic feelings to his dear friend Tyler, the creator, via text message. Tyler ignored it. But then for his reality show, Gerard brought it up again with Tyler on camera. Felt pretty weird and mean. Tyler even addressed it in his Coachella set last weekend.

There's been other situations where Gerard is bringing over random grinder hookups and sucking their feet on camera. But this last episode felt really cruel to me, and it was not about the sexuality. It was just about him not being a good friend. He has a woman who he grew up with, a childhood friend. They both wanted to be famous when they got older. Gerard made it, and he said, if I ever make it, you can come stay with me in L.A., and you can try to audition as well and become famous.

He brings her out to his house and says, stay here while you audition. From the start, he drags her for being messy and is kind of mocking her while she's in his house. Then he surprises her with what he says is an apartment that he got for her, but he doesn't tell her that he only got her the apartment for one month. What?

What the hell? He plays this woman on camera and jokes about it in a comedy sketch within the show in front of an audience of strangers. Wow. That is cruel. And that is separate and apart from whatever sexuality Gerard is. And I think that what's happening with Gerard. Wow.

Is two different things. There's the phenomenon of Gerard trying to figure out how to be a black gay man. And there's a phenomenon of Gerard not knowing how to be rich and famous and just being an asshole to folks who love him in the process. And I have no sympathy for that. I have none for it. Yeah. Well, to wrap, because I think we could talk about this forever, I'd love to end on a really special viral moment that I love.

And I will preface this with, I am friends with these people I'm about to refer to. I love that this happened between them. And I think Gerard and JoJo should listen to their words. So we're going to play a quick clip here from Laverne Cox meeting Dylan Mulvaney for the first time. And if you don't know who Dylan Mulvaney is, she is a huge TikTok star. She famously dealt with a Bud Light backlash that you probably saw where she was on a can and it

tank the sales of the company and it was very controversial. So this clip you're about to hear is from her first meeting of Laverne Cox two months before the Bud Light. I'm about to walk up to Laverne Cox with the Grammys. She's on my vision board this year. You were on my 2023 vision board and now I'm finally getting to meet you. It's only February. I was on your 2023 vision board. You were. That's lovely. It's insane that you're like documenting so much of your life.

So how do you feel hearing that as people who've had to navigate a public-private life in our own careers?

I feel that's so true. And I feel like for JoJo, that is the advice that she needs. I think Gerard needs some more advice, which is don't be an asshole. What also happened in this last episode of his show, Gerard's best friend from childhood asked him to be the best man for his wedding. And he was like, everyone's getting their tuxedos from men's warehouse. Go get it. Gerard doesn't go get it. He shows up the day of the wedding with a Tom Ford tux.

doesn't fit the wardrobe, so he leaves to go get the right tux and misses the wedding. And this is all on the show. It's just cruel. So for me, it's like, Gerard, don't be an asshole to the people who were there for you from the start. And that is separate from your sexuality. Just be nice to your people, you know? Well, let's say we have two modes of baby gay here. Bring us home. For the people on the JoJo Siwa journey, here's what I would say. The public...

will take any and everything you give them. They will just eat it up, eat it up, eat it up, whether or not it is to your benefit or not. Now, granted, the problem is when you've been in the closet...

Of course, part of your expression is going to tap into the freedom that you don't have to hide things anymore. Jojo Siwa has spent 18, 19, 20 years of her life suppressing what she wants to express. But you're going to have to learn to discern. And that's only going to come from people in your close circle who can help you do that. TikTok will not. To the people on the Gerard Carmichael journey...

I would say, let's think about Toni Morrison's advice. Toni Morrison said, the function of racism is distraction. I think some people get so distracted by their struggles with sexuality that they forget about the rest of their moral development. And it sounds like for Gerard...

dealing with coming out of the closet is the least of his worries. He needs to learn how to be a person. He needs to learn how to be a human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's surrounded by people who love him, black people who love him and have been with him from the beginning. And he's just mean to them. I also would say both of them just need a measure of time. Not everything you do has to be on a camera the next day. Right. Yeah. And my final note on this is I think Gerard for me, and even Jojo in some ways, but mostly Gerard for me reminds me that,

The magical thing about coming out is that is a person's moment in which they begin to tell their truth, but it's also a moment in which they begin to learn how to accept love that they've been rejecting, a love for themselves, a love from other people because they haven't been allowed to be themselves. And I think when people are coming out, there is the identity part of this, but there's also the feelings part of this, the how do I now get hugged

in a way that feels good? How do I get loved in a way that feels good? And you need time to figure that out. And Gerard, when I watch a show, I'm seeing someone struggling with- - In real time. - In real time with the opportunity to be loved and having never let himself be loved before. And that's a very tenuous situation to find yourself in. So I wish love to these people. Good luck on your journeys. They are long and we'll be here.

Put the cameras down, kids. Put the cameras down. I feel for you. When you've been moving from lack, everything feels like abundance. Everything feels like abundance, but it isn't. All right. Well, with that, we're going to take a quick break, but stay tuned. We'll be right back with one listener question that has been burning a hole in our inbox. Stay tuned.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

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Alright, my loves, we are back. And you know how people say winter is cuffing season? Well, it is 80 degrees today in Columbus, so I'm officially declaring it fucking season. That's right. The girls are out in the streets and in need of advice. We're out here living. We're feeling bright. It's spring. It's spring. And so we thought it would be a great time to take some advice questions. And we just got a juicy one for you, friends. So we're going all in. So juicy we had to edit it. One question from Anonymous.

Here we go. I'm a queer man in my mid-20s and have been seeing a guy for almost six months now. And during this time, I found myself falling for him hard. He checks all the boxes in terms of how I would want to be treated in a relationship. And he really goes out of his way to show me that he likes and cares about me.

He ended a long-term relationship within the past year and has talked about not being ready for a relationship yet, which makes sense and is something I respect. All right. Well, between the two of us, he is great about showing me that I am a priority to him, but he rejects the notion that we are functioning as a relationship and has introduced me as his friend when meeting people he knows in public.

While we have had conversations about being romantically exclusive and sexually open, which would be ideal for me, this person says in parenthesis, he's resisted to commit to romantic exclusivity, arguing that since we aren't dating, he is not at a place to cut off other people he feels he has connections with.

I...

I'm triggered. Go ahead, Zach. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm triggered. Start it off. I think all of us have been in this situation. So I think from reading this, from my position of having gone through this, this person has told you exactly where they stand with all of this. And they've said they don't want exclusivity. They don't want this to be a solo thing. They're open to other people. And I think you have your answer there. You also have the answer to what you need too. You want something that isn't.

this. So I don't think it's, for me, not too complicated. I think what gets complicated is staying in a situation, which we would call this a situationship, where things are vague, they're not what you want, and you aren't expressing that. Or if when you are expressing it, your partner isn't affirming it, receiving it. Or in your case, it sounds like they're saying, love that for you, not for me. But if you're going to be around me, this is what I need to get through this. So I think it's like,

You're not dumb for doing this. I think it just, they're telling you what they want and you're not really taking it. It's not dumb, but it's like that love song, fools rush in. I mean, yeah, fools rush in. I, as soon as I read this letter, my first thought was, oh, I feel really bad for this person because they feel stuck.

And feeling stuck is hard. Feeling stuck sucks. And to hear this letter writer also say, I feel like a clown for feeling stuck, oh, that broke my heart. So first I want to say, you're not wrong to feel this way. Do not beat yourself up over these feelings. It is totally appropriate six months in to want to have a defined relationship conversation. Some people say you can have it as early as three months in. So I'd say first, don't beat yourself up for feeling how you feel and for feeling stuck.

And then two, what do you do when you feel stuck? A thing I try to ask myself when I feel stuck. Instead of just saying, I'm stuck in the mud, I say to myself, is it mud or is it clay? Is it filth to wash off of me or is it a thing that I can mold and make something out of and build something productive out of it?

And the only way to figure out if it's mud or clay is to really be open and honest about how you feel and what you want and to say it out loud and verbalize it to yourself and to the other person. And once you do that, then you can answer some questions, right?

Is it time to get out of this mud, rinse off, and move on? Or is there some clay here that I can build something with? But you only know that and you can only answer that question once you're really, really honest about what you want and what he wants. Yeah. Verbalize it. Write down how you feel. A good exercise is to even write down what you want in a partner. Mm-hmm.

Write down what you want in a partner. And if this person is not giving you the things on that list, that's a tell. But for starters, you cannot feel mad at yourself for feeling stuck in the mud. The only thing that you have to do is find some way forward and figure out what's mud and what's clay. And it might be that you find your clay and build something without this guy, but that's fine.

But to start, you have to own your feelings and not be ashamed of them. You are not a clown. Yeah. You're just stuck. I said this actually before we started recording, but you know, this, this letter writer says like, I'm in my mid twenties and I'm like, listen,

Who is in their mid-20s or has been in their mid-20s and hasn't six months into being with someone found themselves in this situation? I say you haven't lived, you haven't loved, and you haven't fucked if you haven't found yourself in this dilemma. And I think it's not a joke. It's important to acknowledge that this is very natural. And I do feel that there's a call and response between our two conversations today. Because like I was saying with Jojo Siwa and Gerard Carmichael, one of the challenges, particularly for queer people –

is much of our first few experience, our first few years, and this could be about friendship, this could be about the kinds of places we start to party, and this can certainly be about the kinds of people we hook up and start having relationships with, is that we're responding to lack. Many of us didn't get to go to prom with our boyfriends. We didn't get to exchange cute little Valentine cards with people of the same gender we have crushes with. That's happening more now.

But more times than not, many of us are playing catch up. And so it's like you may be in your mid-20s, but damn, you might as well be 14 or 15. And so the fumblings I think make perfect sense, and I think they are a part of the process. You're not a clown. You're a person on a journey. And the other thing is I think responding to lack also means that, especially early on, but maybe later on too...

relationships that aren't directly painful, abusive, or frustrating can read as good. Yes. And there's a difference between good and good enough. I think this person is in one of those situations. I've been there. I think the three of us all have been there where you're in a relationship that's good enough.

But the tension, the sense of feeling stuck is actually your consciousness beginning to tell you, but is this good? Is this actually what you want? Or is this just nice? Or is this just better than all the shit you've been used to? And I think Zach is very right. This person...

Has been very direct with you. You know what I mean? I feel like a lot of our letters, we get a lot of gaslighting. We get a lot of obfuscation and stuff like that to this person's credit. I think he's actually been pretty clear about what he wants. Now, I want to say, the way I would probably hit a person if I've been with them for six months and then they called me crazy.

their friend the way i would go to jail that day like that's that's really frustrating and painful but aside that like this person has been very clear so i would say maybe it's time for you to respond to that clarity yeah if he's painted a picture and you don't like what you're seeing recognize your new picture yeah i also think that

Every time we get a letter asking for advice, part of my answer is read that letter to the person you're talking about. You always say that. Listen, and I'm going to tell you why. Dear writer, I want you to read this line to him.

Now I'm in the position where I sometimes feel like I'm being strung along with no real idea of whether this will lead anywhere or whether you expect me to be an option among a number of people into perpetuity. Say that to him and see what he says. Say it to him to his face. See what he says and see how you feel and let that guide you. But you cannot continue to act like your emotions are.

aren't worthwhile or aren't valid. You aren't a clown. It's real. Feeling this way is real. And my personal advice that I would give to this person, because I've related to this so much, my early 20s, mid-20s were so much of this vagueness of pursuing someone who obviously wasn't available or even transparent.

told me they weren't available, but I was hoping if I was good enough, if I was fabulous enough, if I was fun enough, they would change their mind and they never changed their mind. Um, or they didn't change it fast enough. Maybe years later they did. Uh, and what I would say is, you know, take the very, you know, sex and city talks with this all the time. A man's treating you like this, treat him similarly back, go date other people. Don't stop living your life. You know, you're not getting your body's telling you, you need more. So go find that more. You

You have agency in this. You can go find abundance somewhere else. And you know, if that person comes back, great. That happens to many of us. I've had it happen where someone's like, light bulb, you are actually what I wanted. I'm now ready. But right now, they're not ready. So accept it and move. And you keep moving. And that's going to be okay. Someone told me once, someone much smarter than me, and I forget who it is or if I read it somewhere. But they said, in matters of the heart, the only yes is an enthusiastic yes.

If they cannot give you an enthusiastic yes, an enthusiastic I want you, it's a no. If he can't say it's you, but it's all these over here too, that's not a yes. It's not even a maybe. That's just you're in the queue. You want an enthusiastic yes. And if he can't give you that, go find it somewhere else. It's also kind of amazing how, and this can be true for different types of relationships, but especially like an intense romantic relationship, there

I have this way, I think, of kind of disappearing the rest of the world. Like, you really do kind of, you can begin to forget your options. You kind of forget what it was like before you were, you know, it's just, it's like the horizon kind of disappears. And you're right. In this letter, it's interesting. This person notes, like, he's out there dating and seeing other people. And so I would say, like, you can too. Like, before you get to the option that you're like, here it is, here's the ultimatum. Maybe you just go on a few other dates.

have a few other hookups and just kind of recalibrate yourself because part of what's going on here. And I did cut out the sentence. It's like this person said, listen, I'm getting so much of what I want from this person. I'm just not getting the commitment aspect. So I'm like, maybe you recalibrate a little bit and you're like, you know what? I move you to peg two instead of peg one. Here's my question though. This letter writer is so hung up over this person that,

If they tried to go out and be a freak and hook up one night, could they even do it in earnest? Would they just be out there stumbling? I kind of feel like, does this person need a little bit of closure with this before they can even dabble elsewhere?

I would hate for this person to feel the pressure to go out, hook up, and then they're miserable the whole time because they're thinking about this. Is there a way for them to get some clarity from this first before they go out? I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends. I mean, to me, if I'm being very honest, I feel like if this person were to, as you said, read the letter or just present it like, will you or won't you? I think this person's, their partner is going to say, I won't. I've been very clear that I won't. So maybe before we get to that step,

I just know me in that position when I've been caught up with someone knowing it can't be, but I'm still caught up and I try to go dabble elsewhere and all I think about is them. Well, I'm just saying maybe before we get to what could become the this or that kind of option where it's, I think, pretty clear this person would walk away from them, to be honest. Maybe you can see if you can recalibrate your vibe with them. That's possible too because that's what y'all said you wanted to do in the first place, to be clear. That's the other thing.

If you have a direct conversation with someone and then they're honoring the conversation that you had and then you begin to feel differently, it's kind of like, well, he's doing what y'all said you wanted to do, honey. Yeah. He can't reach out. Also, stop calling yourself a clown for having feelings. Oh, my God. You're not a clown. Not a clown. Well, yeah.

you know, maybe you are a clown, but when it comes to a relationship, we're all at the circus. You know what I mean? Like it's, there's something that we have to accept about sex, hookups, relationships, whatever you want to call all of this. That is foolish. It's not, it's not our most self-actualized self. There's such vulnerability. There's confusing. And the other thing is you don't get to like,

have rehearsals for these conversations and interactions. What happens kind of happens. And so, yeah, you feel silly. Just don't beat yourself up for it. Just say we're all clowns. We're all clowns. Yeah.

Well, we're going to leave it there for now. But, listener, I mean, you know, if this advice helps and you try it out and you want to follow up, I would love to hear a follow-up letter. I'm just saying. Anyway, we'll take a break for now and we'll be right back with recommendations. I want a follow-up video of this person in the club getting their life taken shots off bartenders. You just said you didn't want them to go to the club. Yeah. You just said. After the conversation. After the conversation. Yeah.

After the conversation. Did this whole conversation about people not exposing vulnerable moments of their life. It's just for us. It's just for the aunties. It's just for the aunties. Listen, once you read this man for Phil, you go to the club, you videotape it and show us proof of life. Show us proof of life. Okay.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden. At Amica Insurance, we know it's more than just a car. It's the two-door coupe that was there for your first drive, the hatchback that took you cross-country and back, and the minivan that tackles the weekly carpool. For the cars you couldn't live without, trust Amica Auto Insurance.

Amiga. Empathy is our best policy. Alright listeners, we are back and before we end the show, I want us all to share some things helping us keep our vibes right this week. Some recommendations. Zach, let's start with you. Yeah, I'd love to. So...

I have news, but if you follow me on Instagram, you probably already know this news. But A Strange Loop, the show I got to produce that premiered on Broadway two years ago this week, which is wild, is now on a mini tour. It's coming back to America after a sit in London. It opens in San Francisco on Thursday. And if you're in San Francisco, we have painted that town in A Strange Loop marketing. It's everywhere. It's amazing. I'm so excited. For the gay people in the audience, the good kind of paint. Okay.

Okay, go on. Yeah, good kind of paint. Good paint. That was a joke that I feel like Michael R. Jackson would appreciate. He would like that. That's good. And then if you're not in San Francisco, June 5th, it opens in LA at the Amundsen Theater downtown. And these will be the biggest houses the Strangers have ever played in. Oh, wow. Love it. Oh, God, I love that musical so much.

It's good. We should share in the show notes. I actually interviewed Michael R. Jackson all about that musical. He did? My vulture show, Into It. Chantel, let's make a point to share because his insights on the music that really influenced the show are pretty phenomenal. He is a big Tori Amos fan and it shows. Huge. It's just he will let you know about Tori Amos. The other thing I would

I would recommend following Michael R. Jackson on Instagram. I don't know if he's on other types of social media. He's on Twitter and that's a lot. Okay. Well, I like his a lotness because he's thoughtful. And I think, you know, we throw this term around, but a provocateur. Yeah.

And when I say provocateur, I mean he's given you something to think about. You probably won't always agree with it, but it's thoughtful, and I like people who do it well, and he does that well. I love it. All right, Saeed, what's your rec this week? My recommendation this week is a poem from the Best American Poetry 2023 magazine.

I was thinking about something Ada Limon said where she was saying, you know, for new or newer poetry listeners, you know, you can find anthologies so that you can see a diversity of work from different poets, different styles. And every year there is a collection put out. You can find it at any, you know, bookstore, the Best American Poetry. And so they bring in a guest editor and they select, you know, a bunch of poems from different people. The poem I picked, and actually I'll be frank, I didn't actually like a lot of the poems in this year's festival.

poetry. I'll be honest with you. But I love this poem. It's by Jeffrey Young. And I just want to say at the back of the book, they have little notes on the background. And he said that this poem was inspired by a conversation he had in the 1970s. I love the idea that a turn of phrase you heard in the 1970s could inspire a poem in 2023. Okay. It's titled Parallel Bars, which, you know, at the gymnastics, it's like the, that thing. Parallel Bars.

It gets bad, and then it gets worse, and then the bottom falls out. But then it gets better, even great, you think. You're there, but then it goes sour, totally alone, hurting, but it comes back. New breath, friends again. It's the best it's been in months, really clicking. It's heaven, and then just when you think it's about to stay heaven, it gets bad, and then it gets worse, and then the bottom falls out. Will it ever get better?

And then it does. It's even great. You blink an eye and it goes sour, vicious, destructive. But it comes back again. New breath. Friends again. It's the best it's been in months. Really. Clicking. It's heaven. And then just about the time you think it's going to stay heaven.

That poem is Parallel Bars by Jeffrey Young. I love it. If you think of parallel bars where the gymnast gets on and you're kind of doing loops ups and down, it's like language is mimicking a visual image. Pretty fun. The physicality. Yeah. That was so fun. I love it. Sam, what's your recommendation?

My recommendation is a novel I'm knee-deep in right now that I'm thoroughly enjoying called The Town of Babylon by Alejandro Varela, and it is just delightful. Long story short, it's all about a child of immigrants raised in what seems like a suburb of New York City. He leaves, becomes an academic, comes home for his 20-year high school reunion, and he's

And all of the old stuff from his high school life comes back, including a former lover. But it also tells a story of immigration and how communities change over time and who was welcome and who was not. It's written so beautifully. And it's kind of wonderful in this way that –

The author never names the place, but you feel the place and it's like you could be there. It's wonderfully written. I can't put it down. I read it to fall asleep at night and I stay up way too long reading it. I think you'll like it, dear listeners. I plus one Sam's recommendation. It's a wonderful book. I got to meet the author a year or so ago when I was writing a piece for the New York Times and he was interviewed in it about Fire Island because he loves it. He lives there. He lives in Fire Island. So yeah. Yeah.

Alrighty. Listeners, let us know what's keeping your vibe right, your recommendations. I'm always looking for new record recommendations as well. Any vinyl heads out there in the VibeCheck fam, any vinyl vibers, hit me up. Let me know what you're listening to. You can always email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and you can enter the group chat on our Patron page.

Patreon.com slash VibeJack. Come find us. Dance Moms, which was on Lifetime. It is... I've really enjoyed the Patreon. It is so... Because it's true. There are so many...

books and movies and da da da and things we want to talk about and we just can't work everything into an episode so it's really fun being able to keep that conversation going like i i mentioned vegas in last week's episode someone's like i'm going to vegas what should i do it's in the patreon baby we can put it all out there come join us

All right, that's the show. Well, friends, thank you for tuning into this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love us and you want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, leave a review, and most importantly, tell a friend.

Huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer Rich Garcia, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Branton Sharp from Agenda. And as always, we want to hear from you. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And you can keep in touch with us on our Instagram that has been alive for a few weeks now and doing great. I'm loving all the content and comments y'all are putting there. And that page is called Agenda.

at VibeCheck underscore pod and meet us there. It's quite a fun time. If Patreon isn't your tea yet, Instagram could be your first sip. Love it, love it. And with that, stay tuned for another new episode next Wednesday. Bye. Bye. Bye. Stitcher. At Amica Insurance, we know it's more than just a house. It's your home.

The place that's filled with memories. The early days of figuring it out to the later years of still figuring it out. For the place you've put down roots, trust Amica Home Insurance. Amica. Empathy is our best policy.

Cheers to a great day and this ice cold Corona. You know what would make this day even better? My grandma's carne asada. Throw in some music. We can watch the game. Or we could keep it simple. Corona, la vida mas fina. Get your Corona at ordercorona.com. Relax responsibly. Corona Extra Beer. Imported by Corona Import Chicago, Illinois.