Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.
I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.
at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.
Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.
For the first time ever in Vibe Check history, I'm bringing not three, but four ladies to the microphone this episode. Hey, ladies, a quartet. Y'all feel it? Y'all feel the energy? Y'all feel the vibe? It's the Say My Name music video all over again. Ah, yes.
Y'all will hear a fourth voice this episode. I'm going to just get to it. Let's do names. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And I'm Afif Nasuli. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.
This week, we have a very special guest, Afif Nasuli, who is joining us to talk about his own career in journalism as a queer Arab man, telling stories of queer Arab people, as well as going deep with us into the conversations of Israel and Hamas in the latest news from the region. Thank you. Thank you.
I wanted us to do this because, you know, we can talk about how we feel about Palestine every episode. And we do. And will. We do and will. But I thought that it would be a good chance for us to bring in some insights from a fellow lady who is covering this stuff knee deep in it and just knows more than we do. So we're so happy to have you here. Tell our listeners who you are.
So I'm a journalist. I've worked for years at different places that you know. Most recently, I was at the Wall Street Journal and Spotify at the Journal podcast. Before then, I was at The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. I've worked at CNN.
And before then, all before the news, I was actually in international law. So that was like sort of what got me into the news was just thinking about like human rights and humanitarian stuff. Quadruple threat. Well, quadruple threat. But also I want to like kind of double click on this pre-journalism career. You worked with President Jimmy Carter's Syrian conflict resolution team in Oslo and the United Nations special repertoire for the Committee Against Torture in Geneva. That is incredible. Wow. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah.
It was all the same sort of vibration, really, because I was just really talking to people who were in trauma and getting their stories and trying to relay what I could find out and tell their stories either...
For the record or for documentation purposes or for their advocacy. I mean, that is the whole point of like telling stories, right, is really just getting people's backgrounds and advocating. And so now you're independent and you're doing your journalism online. Tell folks where that lives and what it looks like and sounds like.
Yeah, totally. I left the journal in the summertime to really just do my own thing, kind of cover queer politics, international things, try to take a slant on queer news with more of a serious tone, but also, you know,
The way that our characters around the world and who we are as queer people, we're always really colorful. So even however serious it becomes, it always is a story that is like multifaceted. And then I've always been covering the Middle East because I'm Lebanese. Originally, I have a lot of Palestinian family.
From 2018 to 2020, I actually did a podcast in Arabic about the undercurrent of femme revolutionaries during the Lebanese uprising. And there was like queer characters and they were all Arabic speaking and Muslim and all of these parts of society that were under looked. And I wanted to go back to that place. I wanted to go back to the place of producing my own stuff and kind of taking control. And so I went on my own on social media. So it lives on Instagram and TikTok for now and YouTube. I mean, all of the places that you can find things online.
And then October 7th happened and all of my instincts couldn't turn away from every minute. And for the last several months, I've just been...
As much as I possibly can being inside Gaza and trying to get people to tell me what's going on so that I can just share it like a lot of other people are doing. Yeah, I love that. Well, nothing but respect for my first lady, Afiq. Thank you. That is what a queen makes. I have so much respect for you. We are so happy that you got to join us. Thank you so much.
And we're going to dive so much into all of what you just said and so much more. But before we do that, we need to check in with you, Afif. Like we do all of our sisters on the show and we have to ask, what's your vibe today? How are you doing? How are you showing up today?
I'm going to keep it real because that's what this is all about. I'm dark and stormy sometimes. That's a great drink. Yeah, it is a good drink. And it really is that because I'm a little dissociated. Do you know what I mean? The vibe is vacillating between two kinds of ranges. Sometimes I'm feeling extremely powerful. I'm making things happen. I'm getting people to...
get information or money moving to get people out. And then sometimes I'm failing and I feel completely weak and like, oh my God, what are you even trying to do? Like, you're not that powerful. And then other times, you know, I'm sleepless.
But also I feel, you know, when you're like extremely pumped, I have a vibe that is intensely two things are happening in my body at almost every minute. And it's really interesting to have someone check in with me because my life has been very like on the phone and not like present. So this is a very good experience. My vibe is already kind of shifting and feeling better just talking to you all, to be honest. Yeah.
I love that. I love that. We're so glad that that's happening right now. My other sisters, how we doing? Saeed. My vibe is good. I'll just share a funny. So it's March in the Midwest in Ohio where I live. It's
And so we're in that period that I think a lot of you identify with in those of us in places in the country where you really have the four seasons. As spring begins to peak, that energy starts getting a little crazy. You can just feel people...
Just getting excited. And yesterday, because I am working on a book and marking up student essays, I can make the mistake of going five days without leaving my apartment building. And so I kind of have to challenge myself to go for walks. And so yesterday I made myself get dressed and go for a sunset walk. It was very beautiful.
And there was just this moment where I was about halfway back to my apartment walking down the street. There were two women who were kind of walking kind of in tandem with me. They were clearly having a good time. And then all of a sudden one of them just stops, turns to me and says, you should kiss me. What? What? What? Was this a white woman? To you? Was this a white woman? What? Her face is white. Oh, no, baby.
And unfortunately, look, I'm not going to say I'm that girl, but I am. I kind of have these interactions every so often with women, with people, a little, you know, feel a little free. Okay, get it. And the boundary cross. And what I do is I smile and I say, I don't know you.
Honestly, perfect response. It says a lot of what it needs to say, you know? Walking and just, you know, because I'm not,
not angry at them i'm not but yeah but the reason that it just made me laugh and i was so excited to tell my sisters is as i'm walking forward and you know i'm not trying to run away from them but i'm you know yeah i heard her say to her friend i thought he was feeling the vibe and he said oh he was definitely feeling the vibe like consoling her and i thought that oh wow i gotta tell the girls
Saeed, I love that you're sharing this because my vibe is similar to yours because I had a similar interaction because I was at a tennis tournament all weekend in the desert. I left the tournament to go watch the Oscars, which we got to all see our friend Cord Jefferson win for best adaptive screenplay. Congrats, Cord. And I was sitting at the bar by myself. I wanted just to watch the show and not be bothered. I sat in the corner. I was hiding. I was sitting in the corner. An older woman, probably in her 60s, comes stumbling up to me.
very drunk and she goes honey you're too beautiful to be in the corner by yourself and I was like whoa and she wouldn't leave me alone about it she's like why are you by yourself can I introduce you to someone and I was like ma'am ma'am I want to be left alone I really just want to watch yes you wouldn't take me around and like show me up she's
And then she tried to like kiss my cheek. It was just too much. But it was because like Palm Springs was like a perfect 80. The girls were Sunday funding. They were feeling themselves. So people, energy, energy change. So to your point, I'm feeling it in the air. People are forgetting what consent means sometimes in these spaces. Leave some of us alone. You got to remind them.
What's your vibe? How are you doing, Sam? My vibe is I'm feeling like at this point in the year, buckle up, get ready. There's still a long way to go. And I feel this way for a few reasons. Last week was election day here in California. It was Super Tuesday for the whole country. But I voted for the presidential primary and I voted for some local races and
at the MLK community center down the street. And I was so proud of myself for going to go vote. And I got the sticker and I wrote in a name for the Dem nominee. I didn't choose Biden. I wrote free Palestine, actually. I sure did. I will start crying right now. I will start crying. There you go.
But I remember this feeling I had when I left the booth having voted and written in Free Palestine and I had my sticker and I walked into my car and I was like, yeah, I did it. Then I was like, Sam, there's...
There's another election in a few months. And just because you voted doesn't mean it's over. And just because you started this process doesn't mean you're done being a citizen. And I was thinking about what Audie Cornish said in my chat with her for our series a few weeks ago. It's like voting is not the end of your service to democracy. It's the beginning. It's the beginning. And I think there's so many issues where we think that or we're talking about these issues as if if this one thing happens, we're good.
If we can just get a ceasefire, Palestine's fine again. No, that's just the beginning, right? If Dems can just keep Trump out the White House, everything's fine. No, that's just the beginning. And so what I've been telling myself the last few days, this past week is like, buckle up and get ready for the long haul because all of the things that we see as completion are
are in actuality probably just first steps. And we shouldn't get discouraged about that, but we should know it. A shift that we all need to make is that, yeah, I think often we treat our acts of civic duty kind of like
When you have a begrudging work friend and they're asking you, like, can we go to dinner? Let's do dinner. And you're like, let me just do this one thing so I can get them out of my hair. Let me just go out. You know what I mean? And it's like, let me go vote so I can get this civic duty out of my hair. And I love you're right. Adi so compassionately was like, no, honey, there's no one thing we can do. And it's not about freeing ourselves from the irritation of democracy. It's ongoing.
Yeah, I agree with that completely. I feel like that it's a constant, it's really a vibe check in because you're just like, is this enough all the time every day? And what are you doing today to contribute to the transparency? Because I do think there are differences between, listen, there's a lot of differences between the candidates, but I think that there is this growing awareness of transparency
What we don't know versus what we are starting to realize. And I think that that gap is like, I think different citizens of this country with different backgrounds have different ways of knowing and have different
levels of knowing. And so we all like meet each other, like, listen, queer people of color, queer black people, like there's no way to say that everybody has, they're not coming from the same place. So I don't know. It just feels very apparent to me more than ever. And it has in the last few years, especially since COVID started that, um,
There is a breaking shell around us and there's an awareness. And I think black people have really led on that. But I do think that like it is starting to penetrate other parts of society. So sorry to take you guys there. No, it's good. Well, and it's just like, I didn't take you anywhere.
Activism, change, protest. It is not a destination. It's a state of being. Facts. Listeners, before we get into this episode, we want to thank all of you who have sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love hearing from you. So keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And also, don't forget, leave a review wherever you are listening to the show right now.
So with that, y'all want to jump in? Are we ready? Afif, are you ready to begin the show? I'm so ready. Oh my God, I thought we were all in. We're edging you. We're getting you there and now we're going. Okay, first off, Afif, we want to begin our chat today talking about you and your work and why you do what you do.
So to begin, you've mentioned before that you've worked at The Wall Street Journal, The Daily Show, CNN, all these really impressive legacy places. But you really began your career in Lebanon writing about queer people who look like you and their stories. And you really have done an incredible amount of work over the years, really focusing on queer Arab stories.
stories through a queer Arab point of view. So let's begin there. Why did you begin to do that work? Because so much on our show, we talk about life through a black queer lens and you are approaching it in a similar way, but through your own position in this world. I feel like this conversation, I feel like it unfortunately starts with trauma, right? It's like, it starts from a place of experience and like living in two worlds and being able to like communicate the things you know to people who might be able to hear it, but might not know.
And I think going to Lebanon growing up and living in Atlanta, Georgia, being a high schooler during 9-11 and then post 9-11, sort of made me attuned to my identity in a way that my comrades or peers of different kinds of backgrounds didn't yet have to grapple with or had grappled with. And so you were just finding the people that could speak to the language of who are you? What are the places where you feel like there isn't enough justice and liberation? Where are you feeling like
You just can't express yourself. And I'd go to Lebanon and I would experience unbelievably awesome things there.
you know, that's the first thing I want to say. The Middle East is amazing. There are pockets of queerness that are alive and well. Of course, it's hard, just like the South is hard. It is not easy to be queer in the Middle East, but it does exist. And I would go there. I would also have really bad experiences like, you know, the 2006 Lebanon war. You know, Israel was just bombing the hell out of the southern suburbs of Lebanon, and I was actually in the western suburbs. And so it was really, really intense.
And I escaped, etc. I lived to tell the tale. I had to tell the tale. And that became one thing. I was young. I was 19. And then a few years later, I went to the West Bank and I got to understand what's going on and meet peace activists. And of course, I came back and tried to tell everybody. It was like while I was still in school. It was just like learning.
And then I happened to go to jail in Lebanon because they found out I went to Israel. Wow. And it was intense. It was three days. I'm very privileged to like nothing happened. Right. In retrospect. But what I will say is the perception of power shifted. I went in because they thought I was like a spy. Right. Like, why would you go to Israel? Like, you're an Arab, you're a Muslim, you're a Lebanese citizen. That's illegal. Right.
And I was going there for journalism and honestly, just with my master's program. So I had all of the reasons. It was just sort of like a matter of proving it. And while you're in jail and they put me in three prisons, I was in prison with people of all stripes for a couple of days. And it was intense. And I felt compelled to understand why just the...
the tension you know the people who are holding me once they found out i was at the west bank with like peace activists like trying to you know they were like understanding but it took a lot of time before they like believed that and i came back and i told those stories and that was crazy and it was like i didn't ask for all of that experience and that's the thing the more experience you get the less you really know right you're like holy god like
When I hear journalists talk about what kind of coverage they want to pursue, I kind of classify journalists into two categories. Those who run towards the fire and those who run away from the fire. You strike me as a journalist who kind of runs towards it.
What do you think makes you want to do that? I'm also struck that you're like, I was a college student. Yeah. Right. Who don't necessarily have, they don't know why they're running. They just run. I mean, but like this instinct to like chase it, you know, do you think about where that came from?
I think it's like a capacity question. Like, it's like, I don't think that I'm like particularly trying to run and cover people's trauma or terrible situations, but I happen to be a person who when passing through my own life, I have happened to be at those places with them. And then I've had the opportunity and privilege to leave those places. And it feels like a duty to,
to run into the fire when you know you have had the ability to do it once and carry it and explain it. And I don't know how much capacity I have. I feel like I'm at a challenged moment more than ever where I don't know how much longer before I have a psychotic break. But I'm also completely fine and privileged. And you realize you're doing something
That you should be doing and it makes you feel strong again and capable again and you get your rest and you try to take a load off for a minute or two or an hour or two or a day and you go back into it because you realize actually all of these experiences push back your tolerance like your tolerance becomes higher and you realize what like.
what you can do and maybe what you should do. Yeah. And, you know, I love how you're framing all this, but I also want to push back on it and say that you didn't have to do these things just because they were happening to you and you were existing in these spaces. You didn't have to listen, hold space, and then tell the tell for everyone else to understand it. And, you know, I look at your career in the past few years of knowing you online and I saw when you helped launch the Wall Street Journal podcast, which is a huge podcast.
And you were having all this momentum in a very legacy space that wasn't about identity. Wall Street Journal is very like, we are the Wall Street Journal. We're doing this work. But you chose, I think last summer, to leave that place and begin to create your own content and launch your own platform. And at first, if I remember correctly, it was mainly through a queer era blends, but it was very much about queer news. And I used to be a queer editor. Saeed was a queer editor. So we were watching you like, yes, girl, get it. Thank you for carrying this work on. But October 7th
happen. And everything that happened in that day from the attacks in Israel to then the genocidal attacks in Palestine have led you to really hone in on these stories in a big way. And you didn't have to do that. Why did you choose to do that in the wake of all of this?
I think the news is the news. And when you know parts of the news as a journalist, you just put your effort towards parsing through what you understand. And I think queer politics in the United States is very important. And I yearn to cover that as it becomes a story that I feel like
is kind of pushing towards the day's most important story. And I struggle with knowing editorially what I think, because it's really just a subjective question, right? It's my space. It's not that it isn't the most important story for someone else. It is. And I think once October 7th happened, I understood that I had...
a particular way to speak on the Middle East that included my queerness and that Palestine really is a queer issue, actually, even though it's not a queer issue in the way that we understand it to be as it is, you know, trans rights in Alabama or drag queens in Tennessee. But
Yeah, it's about understanding where you come in as a journalist and what you can add to the conversation. So to me, it's just been returning to my original understanding of covering stories and characters and being a queer Arab. Just it aligns me to this moment. And I do feel like it's a duty because I am even though I'm not extremely religious, I am Muslim. And I feel like that is my jihad in a way, like my my struggle.
I have a question here that just what you were saying, I'm so moved. You know, it occurs to me, you know, fiction writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has talked about the danger as a
as a writer from the African continent of the one story, right? Whereas you find yourself in the opportunity or responsibility of taking stories or journalism, you know, from your perspective, from your culture and translating it to a different audience. In this case, an American audience, there, there is a risk that you become the representative of, as you pointed out,
The Mideast, oh my gosh, it's so many cultures, so many countries. As you pointed out, there's so much going on and you would never, never want to boil it down to one narrative. But also it occurs to me, the three of us have wanted to talk so much about the impact on journalism and journalists in Gaza. That it's by nature of the genocide and violence, there is less diversity. Exactly.
In the voices we are getting to hear from people in Gaza, from the Mideast, who have literally the ability or even the safety to tell their story. And so I was just wondering, how do you feel about that? That feels like a unique burden to avoid that one story pressure.
Oh, absolutely. I'm absolutely not a representative of queer Arabs. I'm just one of like a million experiences. I don't know how you know the number, but I'm just one drop in a bucket. But as a journalist, you can gather different sources to tell you their stories. And you might not always publish their stories. Like I'm talking to more than one queer Gazan right now, but I've only posted about one. And so you gather the information and you reel in information.
you know, the different opinions, the different experiences. Some people have money. Some people don't have any at all. Some people are really comfortable with being queer, like in terms of expressing themselves. And some people are not. And some people are scared. And some people have like that support by just one, like one mom just is really by them. And in society, it makes them a little safer. You know, I always return to,
to the concept that we're more alike than we're different actually. And I know that's really cheesy, but like in terms of like your instincts and what you have grown up and seen and you're like understanding is like,
It looks the same in that it's just as diverse. It's just as complicated and nuanced. There are some people that do this, some people that do that. So my advice is just to always keep a diversity of people telling you these things. Try to read many experiences if you can. It's hard.
I keep thinking about what your work sounds and feels like right now on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. And I always will watch you in those spaces. And I'll say to myself in the back of my head, this dude used to work at the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal. Of all the places. And I wonder, from your perspective...
What is the biggest thing you get to do differently when covering this conflict outside of that newsroom? Because I'm sure it's a big difference in what you can say and how you can say it.
Oh, yeah. I loved all of my colleagues. I loved all of my jobs. I learned a lot of skills that are allowing me to do what I'm doing right now. And I really appreciate all of my mentors over there. The difference is huge. I didn't get to say anything but what the Wall Street Journal was getting to publish. And what the Wall Street Journal publishes is a lot safer than what I'm willing to be. Safe is a nice way to put it. Safe is a really nice way to put it.
But our team pushed the boundaries because it wasn't really always limited to the Wall Street Journal's publishing, which I did get to do, which was I would put people on mic that were not necessarily extremely copacetic with the company at large. But I also left for that reason, which was that I felt really like I couldn't really do the charade of being at legacy journalism for much longer because...
Not because it was something I didn't see the value in. I do see that there is a high bar for publishing. There is a fact check. There are important things. But there's also a perspective. There are sourcing. There's a way of doing journalism that once you have an entire system behind you of sponsorship and capitalism, it becomes something else. It becomes something that's much, much, much less raw. To me, it was...
Sometimes, like, if I were doing the Middle East, I was just, like, the perspective is really biased. Like, I would actually maybe run interference more so than try to, like, publish things on the Middle East because I would see, like, you know, sourcing would be one way. You're saving white journalists from their own bias in the newsroom. I see. Yeah.
You know, I would be like, no, if we're going to like talk about Lebanon, we need to get the Lebanese journalists in Beirut. Like, so I would do stuff like that. Or that was my contribution in that moment. But mostly what I was getting from these places was skills, cutting, editing, understanding how to interview, doing things that like change you as a person, get you better at your stuff. Yeah. I love that you say that because I think a lot of us, all of us around the same age, you know, coming up, we were told that these legacy newsrooms were the only way. And your goal is to get there, stay there and rise their ranks. Yeah.
But to look at a place like the Journal or BuzzFeed or The Guardian or NPR and say, I will gather skills here. I will take some things from this place and then I can go do my own thing. That's the way to think about it. I've got to tell you, not to go like spiritual, but I'm so moved that the way you actualized yourself, you were doing it because you felt you just needed to do it. You made these decisions because you needed to do them. But
I'm so glad you did because, you know, look at the work you can do. But it's a long way of saying it also feels like time because now when we're covering Gaza or what's happening in Rafah, you know, you don't have time to wait for an executive editor to give your boss the approval to start reporting on something. You need to be able to grab your phone and just get to it. Right. Is that essential? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, the edits that we would be in in the journal would like, you know,
take some time. It would take a lot of time. But now I get to get a voice note, really like reflect on what I think is shareable and what I think is probably like incendiary or something that doesn't really add to the information, but more so a personal opinion. I try to learn from the skill set of a journalist. And I think just to be clear, the ethics of journalism during a genocide are a lot different than they were before for me personally.
That part. Well, before we go to break, I want to just touch on one story that you've done that a lot of our listeners have seen or at least engage with on social media. And that is the Queering the Map Palestinian stories. So if those who don't remember, there was a moment where the website Queering the Map shows you stories of global queer people from where they're at. Went viral in the wake of October 7th because Palestinians were posting personal stories from that place. And Afif, you were one of the first journalists to post about it. So quickly tell us,
How did you find the maps? You brought it to us. And what was it like to see the response to that kind of go viral? Oh my gosh. It was like the beginning of like feeling, oh, I understand what social media journalism is actually and what like parts of it are, are just finding things you might
It was a resource. Queering the Map is a resource I already knew about. I knew about it for months. And also people were posting about it really sporadically. Mid-morning one day, I can't remember what date it was, I was like, I'm going to go check the map. And I digitally went to Gaza and then just started taking screenshots of what I saw.
And I just posted a carousel and it went mad. It was like the first time I'd ever been viral for real. I was like, wow. People were so touched by the words. It was the people that were Palestinian and Gaza who were posting were saying things that were basically romantic poetries of farewells. It was incredible.
So striking to see love that was so powerfully sad because of what was going on and what had been going on. Posting had been happening before this moment. And so it was just understanding that being queer in Gaza was really about.
first and foremost, being safe from the conflict that Israel seemed to have really brought to their doorstep, but then also being occupied by not only Israel, but by the religiosity of people who were resisting Israel and the governance structures that have become very extremist in this sort of environment. And so you got
people who were expressing layers of experience in just a few sentences. And it said all it needed to say because people really reacted and understood in a way that I didn't know they would, but I knew I did. And that's why I posted it. I'm so glad you shared that. Me too. Yeah. Well, with that, we're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back to go deeper into the politics of the moment with Nafis.
This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.
I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.
at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.
Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.
All right, we are back. We've got more questions for our first ever First Lady, Special Lady. First Lady. What's the term? First Lady. There's something about First Lady of Fee Fest. Yes. First Lady of Fee makes me want to like... First Lady of Fee. Yes, yes. Yes, honey. So I want to talk specifically about what is going on in the region right now. You're talking to folks every day who are there.
From the outside looking in, it looks bad to me. Very bad in Gaza right now. The UN says virtually all of Gaza's 2.3 million residents are struggling to find food. More than half a million currently face starvation. Many Palestinians have been reduced to eating animal fodder to survive.
How do you as a journalist on social media begin to even put that kind of devastation into perspective for Americans on their couch watching on their phone? It's like, just imagine the place you grew up and then imagine it.
being completely gone and it's been intentionally wiped out and everyone there has been attacked. Half of them are gone. They're dead. And the other half have no food. And every day I'm getting text messages and DMS from, you know, because I've been pretty like vocal on social media. It has also been that I have been spread to Palestinians and I have Palestinian sources and I have Palestinian family and friends and friends of family and friends of friends that, um,
I want to hear from them. And so I like go in and talk to them. And so I'm getting text messages all the time from different kinds of people telling me how hungry they are telling me that they're in a tent and Rafa and that they can't get, I mean, it's not like they're just doing this all the time. They don't have internet a lot of the time. So,
There's no way to process it. Like I would be really lying to you if I could sit here and say, I can be on this mic and tell you America like process this, but I can tell you about it and I can tell you that I'm not processing it. And it's really hard because I'm sitting here like,
thinking about devastation on a level that no one is used to this. They can't process it. That's how bad it is. It's not something that they're ever going to process. It's going to stay with them forever because what they have seen is hell. This is hell. This is not anything but that. Even just hearing you say, though, imagine this happening to your hometown. That kind of shifted things for me just now hearing you say that. I'm thinking of my
My family in Texas, oh my God, what if their homes were devastated and they had no food? Just hearing you say that helps a little bit. We have to talk about what America is doing right now in the region, specifically the Biden White House. The U.S. response to this conflict has been confounding to say the least.
America is airdropping aid while also sending the bombs to Israel that are killing Palestinians. Now America wants to build a pier to deliver aid when experts say trucks are the easiest and best way to get this done. Kamala calls for a ceasefire, but maybe after a few weeks, and does Joe Biden say the same thing?
I cannot put my finger on a coherent strategy from this White House, but I want to hear from you. Am I right feeling this way? Is there a strategy from Joe Biden? And if so, what is it?
From my perspective and my opinion, because that's where I'm going to speak from. I'm not going to speak from facts because this is just a place of subjective belief. I believe the strategy is performativity. It's backing its sponsorships from the companies and the countries that
give us our power, actually, and our ability to be in the Middle East and do what we need to do, accrue resources, keep who we think are important safe and who we don't think are important. We throw them to the side. So my idea of Biden's strategy is to, at all costs, make it look like we care while really backing Israel because of our interests in
our relationship. Our relationship gives the USA and Israel a lot of mutual beneficial power. And I'm so glad that you're talking about this because if you just listen to Joe and Kamala, their whole shtick is like, well, Israel's our friend and we help our friends. And these are the good guys and those are the bad guys. And that is evil and that is good. So we do good. But it's about more than that. It's about money. It's about power. It's about weapons. It's about strategic interests.
And we should say that more. And I actually would feel a bit refreshed if our leaders would speak to that instead of acting like I'm dumb.
It feels like they're treating me like I'm dumb. And just to support what you're saying with some facts, the Wall Street Journal, December 2023, the S&P 500 has been outperforming what it has done historically since October 7th, the date of. So those are weapons manufacturers are making vastly more money. That's what the world does globally. It's part of capitalism. And these are direct ties that we can point to.
It's as if they're playing in our face. And that surprises me. Does that nature of it surprise you? No, I think that if you... I mean, I am an Arab American. I think a lot of Arab Americans will say that if you go back to the Iraq war, if someone was just like, listen, Saddam Hussein has roughly this large percent of the world's oil. We literally need to get it. We need to control that because if we don't control it, this madman... The bad guy has it. This madman, who...
you know, he was like, listen, you become more aware of like, you're just like, oh, oh, I see why the U S needs to do this. But they're like, no nine 11 happened. It was like an Afghani who like got in Saudi bubble. And now we're in Iraq. It's like,
what? You know, it makes you feel less confident in the people who are representing you because they're lying dead to your face. And it took a lot of years between Americans learning and understanding and like really like seeing what Arab Americans were saying. And for decades, Palestinians have been saying what they've been saying about Israel and the United States. But it is this moment where they're entirely decimated as a population that we're suddenly, you know, talking about it on a level where it feels normalized to say, okay,
Is this murder? You know what I mean? Like, it's like, is this happening? It's like, it has been happening. It's happening at a rate that's way deeper and darker than ever before. And it's always a delay. And I think a lot of people from minority backgrounds will say, hey, listen to us. Listen to us. This is what we're saying. And no one's listening because the supremacist or the supremacist fascist sort of like, to
tinge in all of us. I mean, it is like about really checking the culture at large and saying, why is it that we're so okay with things when money is involved? Because once money is involved, fashion is okay. Dogmatic Islam, not okay, but dogmatic nationalism for money,
Totally. Well, and whenever leaders start talking to me about good and evil as if we're in a children's book or an Aesop's fable, you got to stop and say it's probably a bit more complex. Yeah. And it's true. I mean, we're being placated, right? I mean, as Sam says, it wouldn't be necessarily great either if people were just like, look, we have financial interests in Israel. This is why we're standing on this side. It's not necessarily ideological. Right.
But they're not doing that. They're bullshitting us. And so there's resentment, there's frustration. And so, you know, speaking of the Midwest in states like Michigan and Minnesota, where it's been an option, activists have encouraged voters in the Democratic primaries in those states to vote for uncommitted activists.
I looked it up. It's not an option in Ohio. Otherwise, they would have done it. To vote uncommitted rather than for Biden himself as a form of, I would argue, it's protest and persuasion, right? They're understandably using the primary for one of its functions to send a message to the incumbent Biden to say, hey, hello, look at these numbers. What are your thoughts on the uncommitted effort? And I guess to get to the real, real of this part of the conversation, what would you say to people? And there are many people.
who continually argue that not just voting uncommitted, but loudly criticizing Biden, let's say on social media, for example, it strengthens Trump's chances of success. That we just need to kind of get in line and get 100% Biden and that to criticize, to protest, and certainly to vote uncommitted just endangers all of us because they go, oh, you care about fascism or what about Trump?
I really appreciate this question because it's a really hard question. And I have the answer is that everybody's perspective is rightfully theirs. And so their way of going about what they want to do is theirs alone. But as for Abdullah Hamoud, who's the mayor of Dearborn, who I respect very much, who's like sort of led this campaign of uncommitted voting, it feels like
This is a moment where Biden gets to look or like more largely, the Democratic Party gets to look at Biden and say he's an imperfect candidate. He always has been. He was always like supposed to be a one term president. Get us through this moment. You know, you've talked about it, about abortion. You've talked about it, about the Supreme Court, the things where he has been inadequate in correcting things. The point of the uncommitted vote is to say, hello, you're doing something incredibly wrong and you have to change now. Like if you don't change, what's
We literally are going to use our power and we're going to let a fascist take over because we kind of feel like you're a fascist right now. Like, yes, you can say the Muslim ban was bad. But when you talk to Muslims and Arab Americans, they'll say a genocide is really, really. We know these people who are dying. People forget that. Like, we know them. We know them and we care about them and we love them. And so, like, genocide is the end point of fascism. So, by the way.
Biden has allowed Netanyahu to take us there and has supported Netanyahu to take our perspective there. And I think black people and young people and a lot of liberal progressives understand that in their bones. Many of them Jewish as well. More than anything, I think the co-leadership of Jewish and Palestinian people right now are showing us the fact that
The idea between what is happening and what should be happening is very large. And we're trying to do whatever we can while we can to change course and save people's lives. I think if you look at Trump in November, you're not understanding that genocide is urgent. People are dying right now. I'm not trying to worry about Trump in seven months because all of the people I love will be dead if it keeps happening now because some of them have already died. And I don't think the
people really understand that? Like, I don't think that that hits people because it's so hard to process that people are literally dying that we know in mass, they're being displaced in mass. They're being starved. Children are literally starving.
That we think about this future as like a Trump thing in November. It's like, sis, it's happening now. Yeah, right now we're scared. I'm panicked. I'm panicked every morning I wake up. I'm panicked every night before I go to bed because I want to know if everybody who I know in Gaza is still awake and alive and kicking and like not dead. And I know that's so dark, but it is the way that I'm living right now.
I wonder if they can't process it or they just don't care. If they say, yeah, but it's a genocide over there. And I only care about what happens here. I wonder if that's their calculus. Yeah, it is. I think they just can't. They don't have the capacity. It's like that experience we were talking about before. Your experience gives you your capacity. Some people just haven't had a lot of life experience. So they can't even feel on that level yet.
everything you're saying right now helps connect to what you said, Sam, and your check-in about voting being the beginning of your civic duty. And I think people need to take a lot of what you've said, Afif, today to heart when they look at the news tonight and they see Democrats rebelling
mad at these leftists who are trying to block Biden or trying not to get him reelected or punishing him. And people need to realize that to your point, you know, November is what months away. People can't live through starvation for months. They are literally dying right now. So you may have voted in the primary on Tuesday, but let that be the beginning of a march towards freedom for everybody. If that's what you so want in this world.
Word. A thing I keep thinking about. And Zach, I think you pointed this tweet out to us. You know, I saw the zone of interest. I saw it win an Oscar and I saw the film's producer mention Palestine and this conflict. But a tweet that Zach shared about that movie, which is all about...
Nazis living next door to a concentration camp and just building their little home next to it. Someone said, Americans don't know it, but we live right now in a zone of interest. We live right now in a place right next to despair, in a community that brings despair upon others, and we're in it. And so whether we think about it or not,
We are living in a history that's being written right now. And it's like, how do you want history to remember what you did or didn't do? What you said or didn't say? And I'll be damned if I end up on the wrong side of this one. You know? And if that means writing in a protest vote, if that means calling some House member or senator, then I'd rather do that than be quiet. Because we're making history right now. Agreed.
A hundred percent. Well, with that, I think we should go to a quick break, take a breath, and we're going to come back and Afif has some recommendations for us and a special treat. Very special set of recommendations. Yeah. Stay tuned. Join me, Dr. Panico, with Cindy Lauper and chef Michelle Bernstein to talk about plaque psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.
Cosintix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300mg dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosintix. Before starting, get checked for TB, serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal have occurred. It may lower your ability to fight infections, so tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or plan to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen.
Learn more at 1-844-COSENTIX or cosentix.com slash Cindy.
This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands. I
I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors
at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.
So Afif, before we get into recommendations, I just have this thought I wanted to talk to you about. I love what you just said on this last segment about the time part of this, because I remember when I was embedding in Mexico with the caravans, I would go down there and I would meet these people, trans women that were trying to get to the US, and I would interview them. And they never even, I remember one of them saying something to the effect of like, she never expected to read the story that we were going to put it out for her because she'll be dead by then.
by then but she didn't care because she just needed it to be in the world and it just feels like i don't it's so hard the position you're in because how do you communicate that as a journalist to people that doesn't make them turn off their screens or turn off the news because it is that urgent it's like hours away for some of these people as you're talking to them i know that this is callous but it's a production question almost it's like putting their story in a way that
compels people to lean in and hear it in a way that like doesn't
scare them at first, but allows them to be scared appropriately as you're kind of unfolding the story and really getting to know them in a way that's normal first, instead of just like as some object of terror, because none of us are that. We're all human and we're all regular people. And I think it's just really, like, it's crazy, but that is a part of the jobs that I've had before, right? Like understanding a story and where to start with and where to end with and where you bring in the parts that are hard and, you know, and yeah, I'm
And gosh knows I'm fighting nihilism myself. And a lot of the flip side of nihilism is actual liberation because when you don't, you know, that's a privileged thing to say because those people do not have that liberation. But there's a liberty in feeling like you do not give a fuck anymore about what people think about this. And you're just going to go as hard as possible. And the people who hear it will hear it. And the people...
who don't hear it will eventually hear it because you're going to do it well over. If you do it enough and you get your reps in and you get enough people and you get enough production in and you do enough stories, you're going to find out how to really make it compelling enough for other people who don't understand to understand. Yeah. I think that's the work. That is such a good point. I love that.
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. A thief. All right. So I, sorry to interrupt your recommendations. Go forth. Oh girl, that was not an interruption, honey. That was a moment that we needed. That was a great question. Every week before we end the show, we, you know, usually it's the three of us, uh, sharing some recommendations to help you keep your vibes. Right. But you know, look, this is obviously a very special episode and our first lady, a thief is here. And so, um,
We thought we'd do something a little different and just kind of turn it over to Afif for recommendations. He is obviously such a gift, and we wanted to extend the gift that he can bestow upon us. So, my love, Afif, first off, you wanted to share something that's been bringing you joy. What's that? So, I am so deep in it, and I need joy, and it has to look a little bit like what I'm doing. I can't kind of step out. It's really hard to step out from the moment. Because you said you were like, I'm on my phone. I'm on my phone.
Right. Can't go on Do Not Disturb for 12 hours or whatever. Yeah. It's really hard to get joy from other places, though. I'm learning how to do that. And, you know, hopefully if there's ever another conversation, I'll have like another non-digital. We would love that. But right now I'm visiting someone named Rain Dove Models Instagram for joy. They are some
Someone who started an organization called Safebo. It's an organization, it's a network of queer superheroes that have been getting people out of war, six wars, and they're doing that out of Gaza now. I mean, Rain works with Palestinians in Gaza, out of Gaza, in different places actually.
And I've just been visiting their page, um, rain dove models page and safe bow underscore org. And they just have stories of reunions and getting people to safety and Palestinians, like really getting out of hell and into like their family normalcy. Um, and it's not normal, but it is this level of joy that I have just found myself coming back to, to remember that, um,
there is a light at the end of the tunnel, which is getting these people to safety so that when we can get a ceasefire, we can have as many Palestinians alive and well and able to liberate themselves instead of, you know, decimated by a genocide. So I recommend, you
You know, I really get joy. I really get joy from rain dove models, Instagram, and just seeing the work that they're doing. To be honest at R a I N D O V E M O D E L rain dove model is their full Instagram handle. Cool.
And then also, you know, obviously, listen, we are all students in this situation and this is high stakes. It's essential that we embrace every opportunity to, you know, improve the resources, the sources that we are drawing from. Obviously, we want to encourage all of our listeners to follow you. So first of all, can you really quickly just share your social media? Oh, I'm at Afifness. It's my first name and the first part of my last name. So it's
at A-F-E-E-F N-E-S-S perfect so obviously girls do it hit that button follow a thief but also you wanted to share another resource with us and this person also I believe has a little poetry that you want to bring to the podcast which I'm very excited about
So, you know, when you're talking about Gaza and you're talking about live wire sort of war zones, genocides, you don't want to stick to one resource. But above all, get a lot of resources. Every story that comes out, read the story from different sources. But more than that, I recommend following Gazan journalists, you know, those that were in Gaza during the height of it or before and those that are now out. It doesn't matter. They have the sourcing. They have the video. They have the audio. They have the thing inside. And so I often...
go to this person named Alas Instagram who actually was Rafaat Al-Arir's neighbor that poet that doctor of literature and you know a very respected Palestinian person I often go to Alas who was
was Rafaat's neighbor because Alaat is a journalist and their page is really, really a way for me to kind of see Gaza through a Gazan's eyes. Things like Ramadan, before and afters, you know, joy and sorrow. It's just generally really valuable to like peek in to someone like Alaat's Instagram.
You can find him if you just type in A-L-A-A and then his second name is M-O-H-S-E-N. So there's a photo of him with like a big camera and a Palestinian flag. It's quite obvious it's this Palestinian journalist. Got it.
Yeah, and he's Rifat's neighbor. So actually what's crazy is that last night he sent me a version of Rifat's If I Must Die, the poetry. Oh, this poem. This poem that we all know. He read it to me on a voice note in Arabic. After I found out he was his neighbor, I was like, oh my gosh. You knew him. You guys were living on the same street. It's demolished now. Rifat's martyred. And Alaa...
you know, wants to bring honor to Rifat and all of his Palestinian brothers and sisters. And he read it to me and, you know, I really wanted to play it on this show. I'm so glad you're bringing this to us. And again, for listeners who maybe were not familiar with Rifat, he was killed along with his brother, his brother's son, his sister,
and her three children by the Israeli military on December 6th of last year. Wonderful poet and scholar, well-known well before these last few months. And so the reverberations of this loss are devastating, but even more so when we read this poem that he obviously wrote with some understanding of the context that he was living in. And, you know, people like Alaa who...
have experienced extreme trauma and also just have family that are experiencing extreme trauma because
you know, they're struggling. They're struggling and they are asking for help. They're asking for you to like go to their pages and understand what they need from you. And, you know, not everyone can give and not everyone can uplift GoFundMes or, you know, really uplift these people who need tons of help. But a lot of us can at least learn and try to give what we can. And so like that's, you know, important to me to say, I recommend you going to Gazan journalists and Gazan's pages and getting to know them and getting to understand their stories from,
from a really deep perspective so that you can feel like you understand what's going on. Thank you for it. So first we're going to play the clip and we will hear the poem in Arabic and then you're going to read it for us in the English translation. If death is written for me, you must live to tell my story and to sell my things and buy a piece of cloth and thread.
Surah Al-Fatihah
وما ودع لحمه وما ودع روحه من أجل طفل في مكان ما في غزة يرى الطائرة طائرة التي أنتم صنعتموها تطير فوق عاليا فيظنها لوهلة ملاكا يرجع إليه بالحب إن كتب علي الموت فليجلب موت الأمل وليكن موتي حكاية
It's so powerful to me. The sound of his voice. Though obviously this is in Arabic and you're about to read the English version. I was almost hearing a parallel in the rhyme scheme, which I didn't expect to be able to pick up on. That's really incredible. Wow. Really, he did such a good job reading it. It brings tears to my eyes. I'm just going to collect myself for a second. Yeah, it's very beautiful. If I Must Die by Rifat Al-Arir.
If I must die, you must live. To tell my story, to sell my things, to buy a piece of cloth and some strings. Make it white with a long tail so that a child somewhere in Ghazi, while looking heaven in the eye, awaiting his dad who left in a blaze and bid no one farewell, not even to his flesh, not even to himself, sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above, and thinks for a moment an angel is there, bringing back love.
If I must die, let it bring hope. Let it be a tale. There's something about the way it's like, you know, this poem that of course was written by Raphat, but was brought to you by someone who...
knew him and you've developed a connection with this person and now you're bringing it to us which is what this poem asked for right to share the story to use the story of loss to build connection because that is the only angel that we could possibly hope for out of this and to add to this why we asked Afif
about joy today and why we talk a lot about joy on the show through all these complicated issues is that we want people to understand that no matter what people are going through, even the worst things in the world, they look to something, they look to art, they look to hope, they look to family, but they're looking to get through these things. And when Afif sent this voice memo late last night,
It just shook me to my core because this person who's going through so much in the region decided on his own to send you a poem to share with you in a moment of whatever he was going through at that moment, just for some relief. And that is just...
It just chills down my spine. And thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. I appreciate you guys so much for giving us a platform. And when I say us, I mean just like this entire topic. It's about legacy, I guess, when you really think about something as deep and dark as a genocide. You know, you look to legacy and not just your own, but like the legacy of what you can uplift. And I think Rafat Al-Ari just wanted to uplift the legacy of being...
able to tell the stories of a group of people on this earth that are quickly being cleansed and the importance of that coming through and what we can do to support the culture at a time that this culture is just experiencing something unfathomable to many of us.
And I would say, too, to listeners, because obviously for many of our listeners, the last few months have been a journey, a learning experience. It's been challenging, confusing, and, of course, heartbreaking. But I would say the important thing is that you're here, listeners, and that you're doing the work. And we don't have time.
for shame about like, oh, I wish I'd known this sooner. All it matters is that you're here now, you're doing the work, and you're going to continue to do the work. And I think that's what we will carry forward with. That's the kite. That's the kite that's being asked to fly. All right, friends. Well, there are recommendations.
And then there are recommendations. What's helping you keep your vibe this week, friends? What if you, maybe, you know, if you want to share listeners, resources, people, like Afif has said, you know, people you've been following on social media that have been really essential, books you've read, poets you've been introduced to, you know, via their work. I've read some work from Masab, for example, over the last few months. You can check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And friends, what a show.
Oh my God. Oh my God. Let me get to the credits.
of course ladies thank you for tuning in to this very special episode of Vibe Check if you love the show and want to support us please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and more importantly embarrass your friends until they also start listening and advocating for Vibe Check as well thank you my love Afif for joining us it has been an absolute joy you are brilliant a big heart please take care of yourself as best you can as you continue to do this work
Thank you, sisters, for having me. It was wonderful to just be here. You can follow Afif on Instagram and Twitter at A-F-E-E-F N-E-S-S. Afif Ness. Afif Ness. And just to echo the thanks, thanks for being here, Afif. Having a
a first lady on the show with us this week, brought in a whole new energy and vibe. I was texting the girls before we started. I was like, I'm such a dumb bird. I just put on cologne to get ready for our fourth lady in the chair. No, I love that. I'm a dumb ass. You know what? It shifts your vibe. That's the point. It shifts your vibe. I got freshened up. I got freshened up. Anywho, thanks again to Afif. Thanks to our sister, Zach,
for knowing just who to bring in for this chat. We appreciate you, Zach. The connector of all connectors. Thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer Rich Garcia, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie, who gave us a wonderful edit on all of this stuff before we talk today, and Brandon Sharp from Agenda.
And as always, we want to hear from you listeners. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at at Zach Staff, at Sam Sanders, and at The Ferocity. And you can use the hashtag vibecheckpod wherever you use hashtags these days. And finally, stay tuned for our final episode of our Hey Sis miniseries this Monday featuring Oscar winner and our new best friend, Regina Kass. Yes.
She gives the best hugs. She gives the best hugs. She holds on. She holds on. Join me, Dr. Panico, with Cindy Lauper and chef Michelle Bernstein to talk about plaque psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.
Cosintix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, 300 milligram dose, and adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150 milligram dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosintix. Before starting, get checked for TB, serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal have occurred. It may lower your ability to fight infections, so tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or cough, had a vaccine or plan to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen.
Learn more at 1-844-COSENTIX or cosentix.com slash Cindy.
Get ready to rack to school at your Nordstrom Rack store, because the deals are amazing. Levi's, Adidas, Volcom, and Hurley from only $20. Save on everyone's favorite denim, sneakers, boots, backpacks, and more at Nordstrom Rack. But hurry, get first dibs on new arrivals from just $20 and make it the best school year ever. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.