The "Challenge" of Lesbianism with Rachel Robinson
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Okay. Hi, guys. Welcome back to X's and O's. I'm your host, Shannon Beveridge. It is another week, another day, another Wednesday for y'all. It's Monday for me, but Wednesday for y'all. I am so excited. This is the week of my live show. So, my whole family is coming to town. Vanessa's already in town from Canada. My mom gets in today. My dad's coming. My sister's coming. My brother-in-law's coming. My aunt is coming. My cousin can't

Cammie is coming and Vanessa's girlfriend Amy is coming. Like so many people coming to town. So many people in fact I had to get an Airbnb so that I have places to put everyone. So I'm actually really excited. We're checking into the Airbnb today and it has like a whole backyard and like cornhole and a grill. We grilled last night too here at my house but we're gonna have a new grill at an Airbnb and I'm really excited and I'm also gonna meet so many of you this week which is crazy.

Am I nervous? Sure, yeah. Okay. Probably. No, it's going to be so fun though. But I am, I hope it goes well. I am nervous for sure. It's nerve wracking to do anything live, I feel, but I think it's going to be so much fun and I'm excited to see

Who shows up and who's there? And I hope that you guys will subscribe to my Patreon if you don't already. And hopefully there will be more opportunities like this, hopefully in different cities. So if you couldn't make it to Los Angeles, maybe you'll see me in a city near you.

But yeah, check out my Patreon and I don't really have that many updates. You may have seen if you're on my Patreon that I started whittling. I have been whittling yesterday. I posted a picture of my Instagram story and I said I love my whittle friends because I got Kat and Vanessa to do it with me. And by the way, like 25 different people DM me saying... Whoa! Whoa! That's an earthquake! Are you okay? What the hell?

That was an earthquake. What do you think you're gonna be able to see that in the video? That was so scary. I'm like really scared. Oh my god. It literally shook my whole everything. Yes. That's the worst earthquake I've ever felt in my life. I'm filming my intro of my podcast so you can see me. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna finish doing this, but I just wanted to call you.

Okay, well, there was just a huge earthquake huge. I'm so curious if you're gonna be able to see that in the video. Um,

Now I'm shook. I'm like, I'm actually shaking. Okay, mental health check. I was good before the earthquake. I'm still okay now. I am so happy that everyone is coming to town to hang out with me. So happy to do my live show. I'm really excited for this episode. I hope you guys enjoy it. And honestly, I think I'm going to keep my intro short mostly because the earthquake and also because yeah, I don't really have I don't have that many updates this week.

If I think of something, I'll let you know. I need to start writing stuff down during the week so I can think of stuff to talk about in the intro. But yeah, right now this week, I'm just so busy. Last week too, I was on set for two days. I filmed two episodes of the podcast. Like I'm trying to get ahead of things. So I'm just been like swamped.

up. It's going to be so good. I'm so happy. And I love you guys so much. I hope you enjoy this episode of X's and O's. Okay, bye. This episode is sponsored by Shopify. If you've been watching the show for a while, you know that I am a huge fan of Shopify and I've been using it to sell my friend of Dorothy line from the beginning. And also I've been using Shopify for over five years now. Shopify is the global e-commerce platform that is there to help you at

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code Shannon. And again, CBDistillery.com. Use my code Shannon for 20% off. Hi, guys. My name is Shannon Beveridge. Welcome back to X's and O's, a podcast where we talk about queer relationships and sex. And I'm so stoked for the guest today, Rachel Robinson. You may know her from The Challenge or World Rules originally. And she also is a fitness instructor, Rachel Fitness on Instagram. Is that what's your ad?

I'm at Rachel underscore fitness. There you go. So you may know her. She's also a mother of three and a wife, which is sick. I think you're the first mom I've had on my podcast. Oh my gosh. What an honor. Yeah. Which is really exciting because I feel like I have had a lot of... This is the first wife you've had in your bed? No. No, I've had other wives. I've had wives, but I have not had mothers. So you're just my first mom. But we've had a lot of conversations on the podcast about like motherhood and I've had a lot of...

I've had couples who are married. I've had couples who've done IVF or frozen their eggs and stuff, but I haven't had anyone who's gone through with it and done the whole thing. And you've done the whole thing. Here I am in the flesh. And you carried twins. Yes. How was that? It was shocking when I found out. And being in fitness, I was a little bit nervous because...

My whole thing was I thought I was going to power through pregnancy, work out the whole time, pop a baby out, get right back to work. And then when my wife and I found out that we were pregnant with twins, it was crazy. Like I was got very nervous. I didn't know exactly how I was going to do it. And we called my mother in law and told her over the phone and she was like, we've got this. You're fine. Yeah. And literally it's the biggest blessing I've ever had in my whole life. Like

All my kids. Yeah, of course. And then when you have twins and you see your twins, it's like you can't even imagine. Our twins we look at as more like brothers. They are so different from each other. And we really raise them to really be independent families.

we don't dress them the same yeah even refer to them really as twins we refer to them more as brothers but yeah but they i couldn't imagine one without the other like they are just like meant to be together they're meant to be together that's so wild so were they big when they came out yeah so i ended up having an amazing pregnancy i didn't obviously like work through it or work out through it the entire time but i did

I teach, so the way my life works is I teach at Barry's, which is obviously everyone knows Barry's. It's a boutique gym, been around since the late 90s. A boot camp, right? A boot camp. We took the boot camp off the name, though. Oh, got it. Because people are scared of boot camp. I mean, yes. I did it one time. Yes. It was scary. I didn't, with or without the name, it was scary to me. Yeah. So we took that off, but now it's just Barry's. But basically, I was teaching in person at Barry's at the time.

And my whole thing was I just have to work as long as possible. I cannot get bedridden. That was my biggest fear. Because that happens a lot with twins, right? It happens a lot. And...

I was literally 36 weeks pregnant, making my way through. I mean, making my way through the people, through the gym, like teaching the class, screaming into the mic, walking on my feet for two hours straight. And when I was ready to take off, I called it. And, you know, when you have twins, they usually cut you off at around 38 weeks. So I went to 38 weeks and they were both seven pounds. So it was... That's crazy. Boom, baby. It was, I mean, listen, however you, you know...

I was very blessed. So that was absolutely amazing. And the whole experience was amazing. And anyone who tells anyone who has a kid will tell you that it brings you and your partner so much closer because I just remember for me, I'm somebody who's not really vulnerable in my life a lot. I'm very in control. And, you know, I always kind of have things in my control. Yeah. And

When you are pregnant, you have to like let go. You feel so vulnerable. There's such a vulnerability because you know you're at the, you know,

you the doc you need doctors you need you need people totally you know I mean I'm saying like I know at all I'm like I don't know but I'm like I imagine it's a big deal I can imagine yeah you're also like at the mercy of your body and you're like bait you're exactly being a mom is crazy yeah and I always wonder like then your wife gets pregnant yes how does it feel because I feel like that's such a unique experience that like lesbians are like

people who can carry babies can have is like you were pregnant first. So then when she was going through her pregnancy, were you able to be, do you think you were more empathetic? - I think every pregnancy is different. I think every woman experiences it different. You know, we fell in love with our boys so immediate and we honestly didn't know if Natalie would get pregnant or go right away because we didn't expect to have twins.

You know, we didn't do IVF. We did IUI, which for lesbians or people at home with fertility, that means not IVF. You just get inseminated. Yeah. And and.

And so twins was a surprise. Yeah, that's wild. Even more of a surprise. Because I thought IVF, it happened kind of more frequently. Well, IVF usually have twins because they implant two to make it more successful. But this wasn't the case. Apparently they stopped doing that, though. Well, I think it's a choice of people. I think it's the choice of like every person. They either want that or they don't. But for higher chances, most people do go with it, I think. But anyway...

we fell in love with our boys so immediate and Natalie, we decided, okay, like, let's just, let's just steamroll this. Let's just get it done. If we're all in, let's just be all in. Yeah. So literally six months later, Natalie decided, we decided we were ready. And I mean, I don't want to brag or anything, but like my wife got pregnant on the first time, baby. So like, I was like, baby, you get your home renovation. What do you want?

That's wild. So she got pregnant right away. And we were convinced we'd have three boys because we already had two. And we're like, okay, just prepare yourself. We're going to be lesbian moms with three boys. This is what it is. And then we literally get the phone call when you find out. And they're like, it's a girl. And we just looked at each other and we're like, pinch me. Because it was just, we really just, it really came full circle. And

thankfully, you know, our kids are just thriving. Healthy. You know, beautiful. And we're just so in love. That's so nice. And so it's great. That's so wild. I can't believe six months, you had twins for six months and you were like, let's,

-get this thing going? - Well, we knew you'd be pregnant for nine. - Yeah. - So I'm like, "Okay, we have at least--" But yeah, they're only 14 months apart, our kids. - Wow. - And they're basically triplets because-- I mean, I have videos of them, like, all sitting on the toilet potty training. - Yeah. - 'Cause we would just-- We're like, "Okay." And she was-- She's so advanced.

So it was like, you're going to do whatever your brothers do. You know? That's so cool. I can't believe. And then were you guys like, we're done? Are you done now? Oh, yeah. People ask us that all the time. Are you done? I'm like, are you kidding me? We're lesbians with three kids. We are done. Yeah. No, you've done it. We're good. That's so awesome. Yeah. Do you think if you guys weren't like both moms, like, do you think there's something special about being two women having kids and like being there for each other in a way that maybe like, I feel like men...

-don't have the same... - I don't know. I couldn't do anything right after my wife had our girl. - Really? -So it can go... I mean, listen, it's... I remember that time and I remember just like running to like, you know,

the CVS and like picking up something and coming back home and it'd be like this was not what I need you know and I'm like I'm sorry and I felt like a guy like I don't even know so I mean listen it can go both ways but you know as far as for us I would say listen our dynamic is what we like you know we we I obviously I

Love that I'm with a woman and Natalie is my partner and we have a great partnership in the sense that She's all the things that I need and I'm all the things that kind of complement her. That's so nice And yeah and you know I really love to be like hands-on on top of the kids and she trusts me and she's like do that and she loves to grow her business and be in her business, but she's also 100% with the kids and

I mean, I obviously am on challenge 40. I had to leave for I had to leave for quite some time. Yeah to you know film that and

Listen, I was out of the picture. Yeah, it was pretty big deal. So like my wife really we had to do it Yeah, just complement each other really well. That's so nice And you were also were on the season that was earlier this year, right? Yeah, I was on all-stars for how long were you gone for that? I was only gone for that for a few weeks. Okay. Yeah, I got it. Yeah is

But still a lot. I mean, in kid time, when you have three kids under seven. Yeah, that's a long time. You know, to be gone for a few weeks is a lot. Is that the first one you went back to after having kids? Yeah. Yeah? That's the first one, yes. That's wild. How many seasons have you been on? You know, honestly, like, sometimes I lose track. I think the Challenge 40 is my ninth challenge, but I don't think they count Road Rules, my original show. So technically, I've been on 10 seasons.

challenge reality shows. And, you know, like I told you, Shannon, I started super early at 19. I don't know many people that are starting reality TV at 19 anymore. I think the age has kind of went up a bit. For sure. You know, so it was pretty... Well, actually, you're so naive at that time. You're so ready for experience that, to be honest, it was probably amazing that I did it, except when I look back at me at 19...

I'll be like, why'd you talk like that? Because you're doing you know, so weird. Yeah, it's just a baby. Could you explain what road rules is for people in case they didn't know? Yes, absolutely. For Jen's ears? Yeah. There's not that many of them, but I do have a few. Yeah. So basically, road rules was the comp like the brother sister showed a real world. So when real world came out,

Real world for one changed the life for me. Yeah, honestly, I remember being very very young in you know my teenage years but early teens and watching people like Pedro and watching people like Danny from New Orleans and just like

all these different people that were never on TV before the real world. - Totally. - And no representation. And like loving Eric Nese and also watching Mark Long. So basically, "Road Rules" and "Real World" worked together kind of. "Road Rules" was a traveling show.

They basically credited as the birth of the challenge because it was bringing people together, making them do what they called it missions back then. And we would do a mission and then, you know, we'd either be successful or not successful. And real world, which they would cast at the exact same time. So you either made it on real world or you made it on road rules. When I auditioned for the show,

Real World was filming Vegas. - Okay. - The first Vegas. - So one of the rules-- - That was a crazy season. Yeah, and I'm like totally up in that because we are all very close. Like that was one of those seasons where Road Rules and Real World, both cast were together a lot.

And you had to be 21. Oh, for the Vegas one. Because that was one of the rules for the hotel. That makes sense. So I basically was only auditioning for three spots. There was three girl spots on the rules. And so when I found that out, I was like, wow, I really can't believe that I, I mean, I believe that I made it because the crazy thing is the entire time I was going through it, I had this gut feeling that I was going to get it. Yeah.

And I've auditioned for quite a few things after that. And it's kind of funny because it doesn't come through. And then I'm like, how did this thing that I just did at 19 just work out? But I guess when things are meant to be, they're meant to be. Shout out to Julie Peasy. Boom, boom, boom. She runs Buniman Marie now, which is the basically mecca of...

Reality TV, yes, but she's like executive, executive producer now taking over pretty much the entire company. But back then... Well, she's done a good job, obviously. The fact that you're still on the show now, it's like these people, you guys are characters that last, I mean, you're obviously a person, but you have characteristics that are...

Still cool to watch 20 years later. Yeah, well, the cool thing about it is that I can't tell you another show where any person at home can say they've been watching you for 20 plus years. No. This episode of X's and O's is sponsored by Shopify, the global commerce platform that's there to help you at every stage of your business. Whether you want to sell soap or...

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all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash X's now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. That's shopify.com slash X's, all lowercase. Check it out. And thank you, Shopify, for sponsoring this episode of X's and O's. I love you guys so much. My business, my life would not be what it is without you. This episode of X's and O's is sponsored by CB Distillery. If you're having a hard time sleeping or you're stressed or you're in pain, have you tried CBD yet? I struggle with sleep.

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Shannon cb distillery.com go check it out so unique and not only that but watching people with other people so like these relationships and these different dynamics and friendships and they just kind of are ever evolving so for me that's kind of the unique special thing about the show and basically so that was road rules so I went on road rules they basically called me up one day they're like

You're welcome. - You're crazy. - And I'm like, okay. And then they're like, okay, well we need you in wherever in February.

I literally hung up. I'll never forget. I hung up the phone. I went on my computer. And you know, when you're in college, you can just press drop, drop, drop. And I'm just like, dropping all I just dropped them all because I'm like, Okay, well, I have to leave. I'm on a TV. So I literally dropped my classes jumped into my car drove home and like got ready. I think I think it was like we got a two month warning. Did you start working out like crazy?

Have you always been this fit? No, I was never. I mean, I was always an athlete growing up, but I was never... It didn't click for me that I had to actually work out to stay in shape as an adult until I did road rules and put on about a little bit. Because when you live in an RV and you travel and you basically stop at fast food places all day long and live on an RV...

I mean, it was pretty significant. I remember towards the end of that show, I was like, wow, I didn't even recognize myself. So after that, I was like, okay, I got to start working out. But I didn't really get into it until I was probably around...

My late 20s. Really? Yeah. Wow. Well, you're so fit, obviously. Thank you. I try, you know. Rachel underscore fitness. Yeah, well, rachelfitness.com is where anyone can go and you can literally subscribe and work out with me every day. That's so awesome. Every day a new workout. Do you work out every day? Yeah. Or are some of them pre-recorded and stuff? Well, today's is pre-recorded because, you know, I'm in LA. But, um...

But yeah, I mean, I take breaks. Yeah. You know, I take breaks. I kind of disappear like sometimes when I need to film a TV show and I put up a bunch. But I've been doing basically the birth of my online platform happened the first day of COVID. Yeah. That first Monday. And it took off. And then after that, I said, OK, well, I guess I've got to make a business out of this because I've got something here. Plus, I loved it so much. Yeah.

So I basically film the workouts live on Instagram every morning. And then I take it off and I put it on a platform. Got it. And anyone can do them and save them and favorite them and go back. So smart. So smart. I was doing, I think, yoga classes during COVID. Everyone was doing something. Something. I was trying. I hated it, but I was trying. You had to keep sane. What do you think about like how...

social media has changed so much for like the reality TV show now like the reality TV star now it's so much bigger than that because it's like you're also gonna come off that show and potentially have like a whole career as an influencer yeah I feel like

it's interesting because it definitely ruined shows like The Bachelor and The Bachelorette because you're like, "What are you here for?" Yeah, I agree. Versus the first few seasons of that, no one was going on there thinking they were going to become a celebrity. But now it's like all of these shows have changed so much. When you were 19, you went on, Instagram didn't exist. You weren't going to create a platform. I remember people saying like,

I'm only going to do this for a year or two because this is not cool anymore. Like it was like, I, we joke about it now with the era one. Well, that's what my era is. Oh, I know. Era one. We joke about it. But back in the day, you were kind of like shunned upon if you stayed in the challenge umbrella for too long. Nowadays,

every reality show wants to get into the challenge, every person from any reality show wants to get on the challenge because it's a longevity of a career that could last 20 plus years. - Yeah, it's crazy. - So that is crazy. And now we're all kind of coming back because one, for me, it's in my blood.

For me, the challenge, the show, it is something that I will love forever. It is so much a reason and a part of who I am today. Totally. You know, in terms of the life lessons I learned on it, the hard things that happened to me on it, you know.

And I'll always have a special place for it. So coming back now, you know, I took 12 years off. I came back for 11 years. I came back for All Stars 4. Now I'm back on the flagship, which is on MTV, which is like really what everyone credits as the big one. And it feels like coming home. It feels like I never left.

Is TJ the host again? TJ is still the host. TJ is, I love him. He's just so good at what he does. And he is really exactly what you see is exactly who he is. Really?

I mean, if he coach, he cheers for us. You know what I mean? Like you'll be doing things and TJ will be like, you got this. And if TJ tells you, you got this, it's like all of a sudden you're like, I do have it. You know? I also love that he shames people. Yeah, he will. And that's probably why half the people do half the things they do. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't want to do them. I don't have that kind of fear. It's like if you tell me what we're going to do, I'm kind of just like...

I'm just like get it done type of person like just let me get it done yeah and I don't want to think about it if I have to jump off a building no problem I'll do it let me just do it yeah because I feel safe I'm like they're not gonna let me die on national tv yeah right that's what I always think too I'm like this has to be tested right like obviously they're good super tested and anyone who like questions it I'm because there are casts that freak out and I'm like

Relax. Like, obviously it's fine. Yeah. That's how I would go into it. And I'm like, if I die, it's a freak accident. I mean, you can hurt yourself on your own because you do something wrong. Yeah. You hurt your shoulder, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did. I hurt my shoulder running into a medicine ball at full force. Um,

Don't run into metal balls at full force. But if you ever do, brace yourself because you don't want to lead with your hands because your shoulder will ricochet back and pop out a socket. Oh, that's terrible. But yeah, I mean, listen, there's things that happen. There's, you know, risks we all take when we go on the show. And I believe the reward is worth the risk. Yeah, definitely. Definitely can be. Also, is it crazy? Like going starting when you're 19 to now, like the budget of this show is crazy.

Crazy different now. And like even the challenges themselves have gotten so intense. Like, yeah, you're hanging above like thousands of feet. Like you're doing things that I feel like the early ones. There were some days where it felt like, oh, that looks like really scary. But a lot of them were like, okay, like the budget is crazy. I mean, without giving anything away, I will say that for challenge 40, they up the bar. Really?

Really? There's always a different feel, a different energy, a different vibe. You know, with All Stars 4, it had a more... And it was still hard. There's still hard elements. What I think people don't realize about the challenge, especially, is that, yes, it's hard physically. I happen to think that even if you circle back years ago, we were still jumping off of buildings and bungee jumping. That was always a part of it. You know, it's gotten a bit... Definitely, you know...

the finals they've upped for sure that is absolutely no doubt but like as far as the challenges go i think they're i think they're just as tough as they've always been i think where people underestimate the game is the social aspects of it i mean you really actually watch people crack yeah it's all it's very like survivor-esque in that way oh you watch people like i i mean

We all see psychologists beforehand. So it's, you know, you're meant to be sound. Yeah, you're supposed to be mentally sound. But, you know, you watch people crack because they crack under pressure. There's so much pressure. There's so many people telling you one thing doing another, you know, and that'll get to you. And then, and then you just watch to I mean, based on who wins or who kind of gains the power, right, the entire energy and the

house shifts and that's from every two days to two days and anything can happen so it is crazy but it's also crazy because people are also like sleeping with each other falling in love with each other getting married to each other yeah like there's like that whole undertow too yeah i mean that happens every season you put a bunch of people in a house and like yeah a bunch of hot people in one house yeah i like to watch it now like i sit back i mean i'm so removed like

Now being where I'm at in my life, I kind of enjoy the fact that I'm at 9 p.m., I'm like, bye guys, going to bed. But then I hear the stories the next day or I wake up and you hear about what happened the night before and you're just like, I can't believe you guys still just want to party until 3 a.m. around the pool area. And then literally go do a challenge the next day. Yeah, but it still happens. And I love watching it now from afar. It's like I love actually watching it

You're like a spectator as well as a competitor. In that way, especially when it comes to the partying. Listen, I can still party. I can still party with the best of them. But I'm more of an earlier bird now. I feel that. When you have kids, you have to wake up when they wake up, no? Yeah, exactly. And I work out every morning at 6.30. So for me, my clock is...

is on in the morning. Well, I'd also assume like you are sacrificing being with your children, with your wife. Like when you're going to the show, you're not there just to like have fun. You're like, I want to win. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, everyone is though, to be honest. But some people, I think some, I did say this on one thing I did. I do believe some people, and it's a winner mentality. And this is for life. I mean, this is a lesson for anyone that watches, you know, this podcast is

When you believe that you're a winner, you believe that you're going to win, it actually manifests. But if you believe that you're just there and you have no shot or you have no, you know, you're there for fun, then that's exactly what happens. So I think everyone comes into it with their own. Trying to win. A lot of people do, but then there are a handful of people that you can tell are kind of, you know...

I won't say for season 40, everyone came in guns blazing. That makes sense. Because this was the top, the cream of the crop. Nobody and everyone just really wanted to make a name. Yeah. Well, it goes back to the whole social influencer thing too now. Like you're winning by being on the show if you think about it. If you make a name for yourself on that show, even if you don't win the grand prize, like you're coming home to probably an influx of followers of some kind. And if you like make yourself likable, like,

There's like money behind that too. - And that's what you were pointing out with social media. - It's like a whole new game. It's another element of the game. - Yeah, and there are people who are also like totally different on their social media. - I'm sure. - And then you meet them and you're like, "Wah, wah." - Oh my, yeah. - So I'm kind of like, I've gotten both. I think for me, social media, I love it. I love it because my platform is a very positive place.

It's my work. It's my business. It's my fitness. It's my family. I share my family on there, which I think is huge.

My whole thing, I think, from even the beginning at 19 is that visibility and representation really does matter. 100%. And so I felt it when I was 19 coming out. I actually saw it. I mean, I go back as far as with Anissa. I consider the two of us really two pioneers when it comes to lesbians on reality TV. I remember watching her on Real World Chicago and being like, she cried, but I love it.

Like she was just like out there, you know? And I was like, do it, you know? And then we met in person and we obviously became really good friends. And 20 something years later, we're still really good friends. But,

My point is, oh, is that I remember watching her and being, you know, feeling like, yeah, you can be that gay. Mm-hmm. You know? Oh, my God. And not apologize for it. Totally. Well, and the real world and road rules, too, I feel like really championed just different people. Yes. Like, it was just like, and obviously just a genius idea to bring together, like, the

People with such different backgrounds like obviously they would bring like a really religious person on and then be like and here's the gayest person You've ever met it's like yeah get along. Yeah, it's such it's such smart TV. I know it writes itself I know they don't have to do anything well the background is it is that one of the executive producers came from soap and One of them came from documentaries genius, so they said well we could just get people and barely like a

they would just come. - Yeah. - You know, and do, and it worked. It was pretty much, it started as like almost a social experiment and then it just took off and here we are. - It's such a good idea. - But yeah, it really, really is its own beast now and I feel so blessed that I am able to say that I'm a part of it and-- - Totally. - Part of Erewhon. - Yeah. - To me, that's the coolest part, to be part of it from the beginning. - The beginning.

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You're also like a trailblazer just in general, like coming out at 19. Coming out at 19 today is crazy, I feel. Like still super hard. I didn't come out until I was like 22. Just to like put into perspective, even though I'm not trying to like, even though I don't care, like I'm super proud of being 41, but that was 2002. So when I came out, it was before the L word. It was before any mainstream thing

Like, maybe me and Ellen were around the same time. But you know what I mean? Like, that's how far we're gonna go back. And...

And, you know, although I love Ellen DeGeneres, I didn't really identify with that. Exactly. Exactly. You know what I mean? I feel so bad for Ellen. Not because I don't feel bad for her. Obviously, her life is amazing. Amazing. But this is like something many people say on this podcast. Really? Yes. And myself, where I'm like, I mean, God bless Ellen, but I don't look, I don't feel like I identify with Ellen. But I'm like. Yeah.

That poor woman. Well, listen, Ellen DeGeneres is absolutely a trailblazer pioneer and she definitely made me feel more comfortable. I believe in every generation it's passing the baton. Yeah. So for me, I mean, listen, like even when I was coming on this podcast, someone wrote me on my DM, they're like, you walked so Shannon could run. No, so true. It's so true. And people say that all the time. And as far as like, you know, now we have Charlie X. CX. XCX. You know? Yeah.

No, but I know. I love her now. I love her. But, you know, now we have people like this who are, you know, so mainstream and coming out with gay anthems. Yeah. And this is being embraced by the masses. Well, yeah. Even like having someone like Billie Eilish make a song that's about sleeping with women. Yes. It's crazy. And she's young. It's the same thing. She's very young. All of them. I'm obsessed with all of them. G Flip. I even got into Fletcher. I'm going to tell you. Yeah.

Because I really like her music too. So I mean, you know, no, but seriously, like I remember, and I look at these women and I'm like, yes, I am so proud. So true. Because I feel like in some way, I feel a part of it. You are 100%. Anyone who was like an out voice, like before, like even now, anyone coming out still, it's like we are still changing.

the world because we're still not there like absolutely even your podcast like I as somebody who found you online I was like these this is a cool girl who is doing something and like getting something out there and having the coolest guests and you know this is the kind of thing that we need more and more of totally and listen I just I couldn't be more proud for me now I feel like in terms of where I

kind of want to, you know, if anybody's going to look at me now, I think what I'm showing the most now is how you can have a loving family. Totally. So I think that's also really important representation for there to be out there. There is a ton of it now and with social media. Social media helps a lot, yeah. I mean, my explore page, I'm like, another lesbian engaged and having kids. Okay, you know? Yeah. Like, it's all over. But it's important. No, it's so important. So, you know, I can't imagine...

you know, growing, like being young now or even being in another country that doesn't accept it the way that it is accepted. Even certain cities are coming from a city that doesn't accept it the way that certain cities do. And going on Instagram, you would feel like I found my place. No, literally like this like world exists. Yeah. Even for me when I was...

I'm from Dallas and I went to college in Oklahoma and I knew I was gay when I was like 16. I fell in love with this girl. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, fuck this. I'm not gay. Obviously can't do that. So I like go join a sorority in Oklahoma. I like I'm like, I'm going to fall in love with some frat guy. Obviously that did not happen. But I didn't have I couldn't see myself like I could not see myself anywhere. Even when I would watch the L word like

'cause I was in Dallas and then Oklahoma, like, and they're in LA. I'm like, "That's not my life." Like, I don't have-- There's no one progressive around me. Like, that's never gonna be my reality. Like, I just didn't think it was possible. And then I went on Tumblr, and that literally changed my life, 'cause I was like,

"Oh my God, they exist." And at the time I was 19. So the L word, you know, they're all like in their 20s, whatever. I'm 19, I'm logging on, I'm like, "Okay, there's like this 19 year old in Toronto that I've become best friends with, still my best friend, comes to town tomorrow." Like all these other people and not people like I wanted to date, just people that I was like, "Oh my God, I exist." Like this is real. And now obviously it's like so much more saturated. Like there's so many more people sharing their stories, which is amazing.

But, like, yeah, when we were young... And I'm, what...

nine years younger than you. Yeah. Even like for you, that's even crazier. Yeah. You didn't have a Tumblr to log on to. I don't know. When did Tumblr start? I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know. Probably not yet. But it's, you know, it's nowadays, it's just, it's out there and I'm just so happy because I think it is important. Oh my God. It is important. And, you know, with the challenge and with the shows and, you know, just being out there, it's, it is representation matters. So,

I'm super proud to be a part of like the whole evolution and you should be and on MTV nonetheless like you were really talking to the right group of people like young people who are at home like being like wait am I like that well it's funny because like if you look back at my original season I was still so confused and I think that that confusion was actually even part of my story and

Like we said, I mean, because this show has kind of been in my life for 20 plus years, I feel if you're a viewer who's been watching it since the beginning and you can actually think back, you can see when I was calling myself two straight women who fell in love at 19 with like my girlfriend back then to kind of coming into my own a bit more to then, you know,

Had whatever going on in my life in and out of things and then meeting my wife and obviously having that that Ground, you know that really stable relationship that you can fly in. Yeah, I think you know, you're in the right relationship when you are

You know taking off. Yeah personally totally and you have somebody who can like support everything all your aspirations everything you want to do and you know, I really am blessed because it is not an easy thing to tell a partner Hey, listen, I'm gonna go back to this reality show I did in my 20s and go back with like a bunch of people from my 20s and She my wife Natalie who is a powerhouse in her own we love yeah, we love we love Natalie and

Yeah, listen, she's a powerhouse. My wife is a businesswoman. She owns her own business. She started in her 20s. It's now a massive business. It's gbeauty.com. It's makeup and skincare. And for her, she didn't understand it. But for me, this was so much a part of who I am and...

It's like that fun that you need when you, especially after you've kind of been out of the game for so long, you kind of want to do something where you don't know what's going to happen and your adrenaline is going to be high. And, you know, you... It's such a unique... How many people get an opportunity to do those things? Exactly. So I was just like, I need to do this because, you know, our kids are old enough and the show has had this entire rebirth where people are just so...

engaged in it. Yeah. And I want to be a part of it again. Yeah. And she came around and supported me and I think that that has ultimately really brought us even closer together and you know she just yeah I don't know I mean that's a tangent but basically I'm just super proud that of my own personal evolution because if you look back I mean you

I mean, if you want to run a tape of me at 19, you'd be like, I didn't even, I wouldn't even know that that was you. Yeah. That your voice, the, your, the way you, the way you carry yourself. I mean, maybe the way I carry myself is similar, but my voice or, you know, the confusion in who I was at the time. Yeah. You know, that is all. You've been on the show for like half of your life. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Not many people have like a,

like a... What do you call it? Like a scrapbook of themself like that. It's such a unique situation. Wait, can you tell them how you came out on the show? Like what happened when you were 19? Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you the story of like a little backstory. So basically, you know, I...

I had a girlfriend really early on. She was a bit older than me. We met in high school. And then, obviously, cut to I'm in college. I auditioned for the show. We're still kind of like together, but we had a lot of like break up, get back together type of stuff because we were just young. So very lesbian to me. Yeah, and we were young, and I'm not even sure we were gay. Were you in New York at this time? Trying to tell myself I wasn't gay. Yeah.

No, I went to USF. I was in Tampa. Okay, wow. And then basically when I got on the show, I kind of turned to her and I'm like, well, we can't be together. Yeah. She was like, okay. And I'm like, yeah, because I need to experience this. And, you know, this is a big, big deal. And I just want to be free and da, da, da, da, da. Classic. Yeah. So then I go on the show and I'm like, of course, typical, like, you know, whatever, come back. Right. Right.

But they followed that storyline. And I think it was a very real, important storyline. And one of the things that I realized at the time, listen, on the Road Rules My Original season, we had another guy named Shane who was on it with me. He was almost like an overnight gay icon. Like, we got off and it was actually quite crazy. I mean, gay men were nuts for him because he was...

so adorable and he's you know he just has that but he made me much more comfortable because he walked on the bus and it was kind of weird but when we walked on there was one girl who was asking everyone are you the gay one are you the gay one wow right classic yeah she like was going down the line right and so I think I got on the I got on the bus before him

And she goes, are you the gay one? And I remember in that moment just kind of being like, no. You know, like, because I didn't like, I just like wasn't prepared. Yeah, of course. And then Shane got on and she was like, are you the gay one? He's like, yes, I am. Oh, my God. And he just like was like, boom, you know. And then, of course, here I come from like the peanut gallery. I am too, kind of. You're like, wait, that looked fun. I could do that. But anyway, Shane took me to like my first gay club. No way. Like we were a bunch.

And I remember walking in, I think it was in Texas actually, we went to this gay club and I remember walking in and being like, "I'm home." - It's so real though. - Yeah, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh." And I'd never been to a gay bar. I was only 19, I had just graduated high school. I was literally in my first semester of college when I left.

So anyway, but yeah, so I don't know, that was kind of a tangent, but power by numbers and, you know, Shane really helped me. Oh my God, yeah. Seeing other queer people, especially in real life, there's nothing quite like that validation. Yeah. And those conversations are so powerful too. Just like casual ones. Like not like crying, being like, how did you come out? Like literally just being like, oh my God, like you like a boy? What's the boys like? Or just being that comfortable. Yes. Because he was so comfortable with it. And I was like-

- Yeah, so am I. - Me too. Did you talk about that in your audition tape? Like, were you like... - About my relationship? - That you were like queer? - Oh yeah, they knew all about it. Like they were, you know, all over it. But I'm sure they probably hoped for the story to kind of come full circle for me. I don't know what they expected exactly. I think they would have been fine casting me either way. I think they were...

you know, they realized what I was going to bring to the table in terms of like, I was kind of in, I was kind of that, I don't want to use the word cocky, but I was kind of like that young, you know, just athlete, like I'm the best at everything, you know, kind of arrogance. And then, you know, as you go through life, you realize, no, you're actually not. And like you humble yourself in so many different ways, which the challenge I can absolutely credit to it.

So many ways teaching me a lot of lessons I needed to learn and yeah so that story ended up coming out on the so once that came out there's a power and I always tell people this especially because I have a lot of women and a lot of people write me and how'd you get so comfortable how'd you do that like how did you come out you know and I just say to them honestly when you own it nobody takes it from you.

Like when you say, listen, this is my life. This is who I love and this is who I want to be with and I'm happy. You're going to find that there are pretty much close to nobody that's going to shun you for it. Unless you have some shitty friend. But really anybody who actually cares about you is going to be like, I'm so happy for you. And also those are people you don't necessarily want in your life. Exactly. I think the hardest part is with family. If you have family that you know won't support you because it's like,

I mean, I'm blessed in that department. Yeah, me too. But I have had partners who have not been in the past, so I realize how hard that is. Not my wife, thank God. We have both family members. Supported. Yeah. I mean, we really have a nice, nice thing. But I've seen it firsthand. Mm-hmm.

and it is it is really sad me too i know it's devastating because like it's one thing i mean i totally agree with you i think for me like when i when people ask me for advice too i'm like once you're confident like don't don't force yourself to come out before you're ready because if you come out when you know who you are and you're like strong in that it does not matter what anyone says to you i just had someone on my podcast yesterday and we were talking a lot about like online feedback and like

specifically hate and stuff. And we were just saying, like, it's funny because you can so tell when someone says something that it, like, actually bothers you because it's like, oh my god, that's my insecurity, you know? Like, someone will say the one thing that you're like, fuck, like, damn, you saw that? But if someone's homophobic to me,

I do not even give one fuck. Like, I'm like so good about being gay that like someone comments something like that to me now and I'm like, I don't fucking care about your opinion. I absolutely agree. And I also just want to say that one of the other advices I give people is, are you financially stable? Because I think that is also, you know, some people that rely on

parents or family for money then that's another situation and you have to pay attention to that because you're not like about to cut yourself off no just keep it to yourself then or like I don't know do whatever you need to do until you are financially stable and can stand on your two feet

on your own two feet and then you can be whoever you want to be. And you're going to make mistakes. The thing is also, I mean, just because you come out doesn't mean your life and your choices are going to be perfect. Oh my God, no. So both know that. So it's like you also have to lead like anybody around you has to realize that it's just like any other person

Life it's gonna have you know, it's an implosion. You're gonna pick really bad partners Doesn't matter if they're the same gender or not and you're gonna pick hopefully you'll find that really good partner totally but

it's not gonna it's not like the like cure-all to your life coming out will not like change everything make everything no and it's not like just because all of a sudden you're gay you've got like this perfect radar to pick the perfect person because that's not gonna happen either and the worst you can do which i've had this happen to me in my past past is people be like oh you're gay you're gay i'm gonna set you up and i'm like ah no like that's not the way it works no that's such a like common phenomenon i'm like

I guess it's better in LA though, there's so many lesbians. I feel like people are not like-- - Gosh, I can't believe it. - It's insane. Is Miami, what's Miami like with the queer scene? - You know the nice thing about Miami is that it's just a real city in the sense that you don't have to be anything. You can go anywhere, you can be who you want to anywhere. I've never ever had anybody give me any kind of bad look and I'm in a super red shirt.

shittier you know it's like it could get crazy in Florida yeah but I don't have any of that I'm also not like

overly like affectionate so I don't know if like maybe if I was making out in public yeah but for the most part you can go to any bar there and feel absolutely comfortable it's so diverse Miami in general diverse people just don't care it's so international yeah you know I wish there was more gay or queer

Because I do think there is something nice about that when you walk in and you know. Like, I watch the bar I love. It's in New York. It's in Brooklyn. The one with the karaoke. Anyway, I went there. I also felt like I found home. Oh, gosh. My friend Beth would know. Anyway, so...

There is something special. No, there's something so nice about a queer space. There's something really special about it. So I do wish that there was that. Yeah. But unfortunately for Miami, because there is so much option and there is so much nightlife and there's so many different places to go and people are just naturally whatever they want to be. It doesn't really feel like we need our own. People just haven't created that own space. It's hard for lesbian spaces too. Like we have the hardest space.

They do not stay open. I know, but I don't... You have one in LA though, Ruby Fruit. Have you been? No, I gotta go. You gotta go, but it's a wine bar. I've been, you know, I go back to like WeHo sometimes. Like last time I was here, I went and it's just like, sometimes I'm like...

know what happened i can't really do it anymore what happened here it's so young too over there i mean for you to say that you gotta feel like i'm like literally it feels like 19 year olds like i feel like i'm like you guys all have a fake id this is not none of you are like you all are like out yeah without your parents knowing like checking out the gay bar no it's scary i like going to weho like in the daytime sometimes because it feels more like you go to a drag show and then

hang out for a bit and then when it gets crazy i'm like i'm ready to go yeah they also like pickpocket there all the time it's like a whole thing but silver lake is pretty gay i know yeah i love silver lake me too i love it it's so fun well i am curious about this because you were obviously you've been out since the beginning of your road rules thing yes but i feel like there wasn't that much attention on your sexuality in like the seasons after and like on the challenge did you feel like there was like

Because you were dating people secretly and even that was not. Yeah. I mean, listen, the truth is, is like it has come out. So it's okay to kind of go there. But I mean, back then, which I think credit to production, they were very aware of like

relationships and if people were not comfortable with that being out there they kind of respected it and you know at the time obviously I had a relationship with a cast member I've had a relationship with a few cast members to be honest but like but you know at the time I did and the it was respected and you know since then

Veronica has come out. So it's kind of nice because you see her kind of come full circle in her own on her own terms. Yeah, in her own terms, which I think is great. And, you know, I mean, listen, I had different things on different seasons and different things happen. And I think that's also a part of my journey. Yeah, like,

You know, that was kind of my story. I always felt like I could never show up and like not end up in something. And I was like, finally, I was like, I've had enough of this, you know? But yeah, I mean, basically, you know, on my original season, I do think that my sexuality was a forefront of my story. I think after that...

I was always known as the gay or lesbian on the show. It was never like a secret at all. No, it was never a secret. I never was, I never lived in the closet after that, but I did feel like it at times. Yeah. On the show specifically? Yeah, because I was, you know, actively kind of like hiding one part. Yeah. But you know what, to my defense and to that defense of that kind of era of my life, um,

You know, at that point, we didn't want to give them, I didn't want to give them that story. Yeah. Like, I was like, no, you don't get this. Yeah. You know, it was kind of like controlling. Yeah, totally. It's kind of a control thing where, you know, you don't, you kind of want to be in control of your own story or your own life. And some aspects are just off limits. Yeah. And also, you never know what they will do. Like, I'm...

I feel like the challenge seems like it has a pretty fair edit. It doesn't feel so manipulated like some The Bachelor, Bachelorette. Some of those, you hear a soundbite and you can tell that they've chopped an interview from one confessional to another often on The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. Yeah, no, I mean...

I will absolutely go to bat for the challenge in the sense that they have stayed true to their roots. They do not plant stories. They do not... They don't do that. They do pick up on what's going on. Yeah. And they do, obviously, give you an interview. Yeah, of course. And ask you questions that are going to kind of lead into whatever story is... Well, it's still reality TV at the end of the day. Exactly. And so that's going to happen. They do not make storylines up. They don't feed you, you know... And...

Sure, they need a villain and they need kind of the, you know, but the story writes itself and you kind of know when you're getting that villain edit and if you want to really dig into it, well, then you can really lean into it or you can change it for yourself. Totally. You're in control of your own experience. Yeah. It's like Johnny Bananas. Like I feel like he knows and he does it on purpose. He's like...

Yeah, Johnny and I have such a colorful past. I mean, it's kind of crazy, but that's going to be a really fun, fun... Is he in this season? Yeah. Damn. Yeah. And CT? Yeah. Obsessed. Yeah. I love CT. Yeah, everybody does. And... Okay.

For anyone who doesn't know, basically, you were in a relationship with someone for three years that no one ever knew, right? And then it got outed. On a future TV show. Yeah. That I was not on. Yeah, crazy. Were you guys, did you keep it a secret partly because she wasn't out?

Yeah, I mean, it was just at the time, it was just something that like, we were just not comfortable with. Yeah, kind of sharing. But now she is out. Yes. But what do you think? I think I just think it's interesting. Obviously, this podcast is like unique, because most people who come on,

are not necessarily just like, you know, you're not just an accountant or something, right? Like it's a unique story. But a lot of stories that people come on and tell like are kind of universal in a way. And I think one of those things is dating someone who's not out. My girlfriend just came out. - Yeah. - So I'm like, "Yay!" - I know. I mean, listen, I'll tell you this much.

meeting my wife and her being listen my wife when I met her had never been out oh really so when we when I met Natalie she was still in the closet okay um how

Had she dated women before? Yes, yes. But she was still in the closet. And one of the things that is beautiful is that she felt so immediately comfortable as soon as we got together because she knew that this was a relationship that she could come out in. Yeah. And that is something that, you know, for me, that's the beautiful part of how you know when someone is truly meant for you or gonna ride for you or, you know, gonna do that.

I think dating someone that is in the closet after a long period of time, it has to have an expiration date. For me, like, I just think it's out of just a mutual respect for each other. You can only live in that arena for so long. But Natalie, as soon as we met, she literally had a plane ticket home the next week, went home, told her family, told everyone, and, you know, had a huge business. Like I said, she has a huge business that she runs and is...

you know, the founder of. And she also felt the same way I did, which is when you own it and you're like, this is me, this is what I want, this is who I am. Yeah. People can see that. Yeah, no one can really rock you. And they just respect it. So, yeah, I think coming out is extremely important for...

Relationships to feel healthy. Yeah, to actually thrive in a relationship. Yeah. I don't know how they can act. Like when you are actively hiding it from, let's say, really a parent, that's really hard. I mean, the holidays, the this, the that. You know, it just gets so uncomfortable. And I've seen it happen with a lot of people that obviously are not myself. But.

but I've seen it happen and I'm just like you feel for the person who is out but the other you know you feel for both like you're like I can see how much this is hurting you as the person who's not out like and they're hiding it but then you look at the partner and you're like oh my god there's an element of like

hardship there for you too where it's like it also I think as someone who's been out for a long time then you do kind of almost regress into this like you're like wait is there something to be ashamed of exactly I think that's a great point I think I think that when that happens I think

you know, subconsciously, the person who is out ends up kind of going back in. Yeah. You take on some of that shame. And with social media now also, and with, you know, Instagram and Facebook and this and that, it's like, how much can you really...

pull that off. I mean, at some point, like, lesbians love to post themselves all over each other. So, you know, you take that element out and it's kind of, you know, kind of... It's hard to hide. It is hard. It's really hard to hide. Hard to hide. Yeah. Because you gotta, like,

put it on close friends or something yeah but i guess like at the same time obviously i think you should be patient with someone but like i think you're right and that there's an expiration of like how long can that patience go on especially yeah i mean i i think that's just my opinion because it's it's hurtful to the person who is waiting yeah especially if you're someone like us who is a public like you're a public person you talk about your life like you don't

that adds a whole other layer of shame where you're like, wait, I want to talk about this because I love you and I want to be out and proud. I think it's beautiful the way you and your wife share your life. It's just very organically mixed in with just who you are. It's not like...

It's very just like, this is me. And then, oh my God, and then these are my kids. Yeah. I mean, my wife is surprisingly much more private than I am. I mean, if it was up to me, we'd probably have even more out there, but it's that personality

perfect balance. Like she does kind of reel me in to where it's like, no, you don't really need to put up all of that. You know what I mean? I'm like, you're right, honey. You're right. It's us. It's private, you know? But then she's also come around a lot. So she's kind of, we've kind of met in this really nice middle where we share these beautiful moments, our vacations. I mean, we'll, we've shared kissing, like we share everything, but we're

It's not all the time. It's not everything. Yeah, and it's not all the time. It's not like every other post. You know what I mean? It's kind of...

sprinkled in here and there totally you know I think it's really easy too with the internet and it's so funny because I was talking to this other person about this it's so easy to want to share your relationship because it's like you are so in love and you're so happy and you're like we're so cute like I want I want everyone to see and then you do have to think like okay I also want some of this to be for us so that it's like uh yeah and also it's it's just sometimes it's like not that

It is. It's for you. I get it, though, because you take a hot picture and you're like, this is so hot. Everyone should see this. Everyone should see this. All 250,000 followers. They need to see it. You don't even really realize, to be honest, probably how many people do see your pictures. You just think of maybe somebody that is really your close friend or your friend seeing it, right? And you don't realize, okay, all these strangers are going to see it.

But, which is fine. I think it's all good. Listen, I am all about representation. I tell my wife all the time. I'm like, listen, you, you knew what you were doing. Like, you chose me. Yeah. You were already very public. I was public. I did not hide who I was at all when we met. I have never really been able to do that. I've always felt that being really upfront is kind of the way I lead. And

I also don't lie. Like, I'm not a good liar. So it's like I just everything is kind of, you know, this way. Yeah, it's just easier this way. And, you know, maybe it was a little bit of like opposites attract in the beginning because she was, you know, so put together all the time and so kind of protective of her of her space. Yeah. And now she's really she's I mean, when I look at pictures of us when we first got together and I see her.

and I see us now, it feels like that. It's totally different people. Really? Not totally, but the energy and, you know. You've like grown together. Yeah. You know, all of that. So you can definitely grow. I mean, we've been together for 10 years. I was going to say, how long have you been together? Been together since I was 31. Wow. Did you know right away that you were going to like marry her? Was it like a...

Or were you? I had been, honestly, I, when, you know, they always say when you don't look is when you're, like, when you find it. I was, right before I met Natalie, I was really, like, I'm over relationships. I was like, I'm Jen, you know? And then we started having lunch. We started working out together.

you know and then a week later she was living with me oh my god you're one of those you're one of those i am you you hauled yeah you hauled we you hauled oh my god like literally it was like a suitcase came over and then she had to like call her sister and be like yeah i'm like i'm never coming back oh my god was this in miami that y'all met yeah yeah yeah that's so wild i have yet to you haul

Really? That's good. I mean, listen, it worked for me, thankfully. But I definitely think there is something to be said for like taking time before you do share space. For me, I was in a place where...

you know, I felt very ready and she felt very like we compliment. I don't know. It just kind of worked. Yeah. I mean, it obviously it happens for a reason. If you're still together, it can work for sure. It obviously, it obviously, I have friends who view halt and are still together and very happy. I think I have like commitment issues, but,

But like also like... But those aren't bad to have. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Especially in this realm of the world we live in. Yeah. Those are not bad to have. You should definitely see somebody in and out of different like elements of their time. Totally. But and also because I work from home. So I think that's been my biggest thing of being like, I can't like live with a... We would be together all the time. But eventually obviously. Yeah, I mean, I always credit which is, you know, listen, we're...

we're amazing together, but I also credit our success of our relationship to we are both extremely busy. So she has her own stuff going on that is keeping her busy. She's not

Sitting at home worried about what I'm doing all day long not that she needs to be because she can 100% trust me Yeah, but she's not like she's got something going on. No, and I've got so much going on Yeah that I want to be busy and I want to be doing my stuff, too Yeah, so it really is so beautiful because we both can kind of get our own shit done. Mm-hmm and then be together and

when we're together. Work-life balance. Yeah. Sometimes when I hear people that are like, we're together all day long, I'm like, how do you do that? It's just like, how do you like each other anymore? You know? Not you guys, but I'm saying when people are together all the time. Well, I just feel like that's a codependency thing, which is super common. I mean, I'm not going to say I haven't done that, but I've learned. I've kind of learned better and now I definitely feel that there is

Whatever works for anybody works for them. I'm not judging. But for me personally, I love that both of us are extremely busy and can then kind of really take advantage of the time we do have together. Yeah, come back together. Yeah. Do you think that is that something you attribute to? Like, what would you say makes your relationship with your wife work most? Like, what is like the thing that you think is...

You know, my wife is all the things that I need, like in the sense that I can kind of be like, oh yeah, like let's invite 20 people and do this and do that. And let's invite this one, this one. And she's like, Rachel, we need to like, oh, you know, you need to be, or like whatever it is, she just kind of like brings me back in, you know? She also is so supportive and so loving. And even with the kids, like I can be like, get up, you're fine. Mm.

You know, like they fall. I'm like that parent. Like, you're bleeding? You're fine. We'll put a band-aid on it. Yeah. You know? Or are you bleeding? If you're not bleeding, you're definitely fine. And she's like, come here. Come here, honey. Like, I'll hold you. Like, it's okay. Like, she really like does that extra caressing and making them feel so taken care of. And I do that too, but I'm just a bit more, you know? So it's the nice balance of both and...

I came from, I have a single mother. I've always been very friend oriented because when you grow up as a only child with a single mother, you're at friends houses a lot. You're doing things with other people's, you're in other people's families. You're doing whatever it is and I love that. But with my wife, she grew up with two sisters with a really close knit kind of family unit. And I also really enjoy that now. I really enjoy that we have this kind of really

you know, solid foundation of people who are just 100% want the best for you. And, you know, all of it, it kind of comes together. And for my kids, it's really special because I grew up, like I said, with a single mother as an only child. And when I see my kids, I'm like, wow, they have such an, they have siblings, they have two parents in the home, they have, you know. And for a second there, it took me like a second to realize that

how different but beautiful it is. And it's, you know, it's all good. I don't listen. I'm so happy and I'm just feel so blessed that they have all these extra people and all these aunts and uncles and, you know, it's a beautiful thing. So,

What we both bring to the table. Yeah kind of what really makes us work and she's also like super hot Really really really knows me and knows my body and like, you know what I mean? Like she's just she just is all on all the right way is like that's what you know what I've always liked looked for and

Thankfully, you know, we make it work. But let me tell you, I'm not going to sit here and say I have the perfect, you know, it is work. Yeah. It is work every single day. And we have our ups and downs. And there's times when I've been like, we need to reconnect. We need to, you know, especially...

with kids. Yeah. Because you can get just so caught up in your children, which is beautiful. Yeah. But you can also have to realize that your relationship has to like kind of... It's like a pillar in your life that you have to like... I mean, every parent will tell you that. You just... What happens is, at least for me and for her, is you fall so in love with your kid, kids, you know, that you're so in love that you're like...

you're fine honey yeah you're fine you know and you're just like you're just so in love with your kids that you're like i can't even imagine my dad talks about that a lot he's like you couldn't love a pa like you can love your parents you can love your partner you can love your dog he's like you will not know love like until you have a kid listen i happen to think i happen to think and i agree listen there is no there is absolutely the love for your children the love you have for them and the innate like

you know, how you know what they need. The innate, like, how you just know what they need. Like, I know my children are sensitive. I know exactly how they're going to react to certain things. I know how to kind of come in and, you know, make things seamless, hopefully, for them as much as I can, you know? I really, like, I love my dogs, too.

Not as much, but I mean, I guess. Like, I really love my dogs and I really love my mom and I really love my wife. But no, he's absolutely right. You are so in love with your kids that you just, you know, can...

It can probably, like, take over your life if you don't. Especially when you have three under, you know, 14 months. Oh, my God. I can't even imagine. So that was a lot. Like, so we kind of, you know, we've made it through. And now we're finally taking, like, vacations with each other. That's so nice. Or, you know, also, I'm here in L.A. She was just in Toronto for work. Like, we're also kind of independently traveling now because we can. Because one of us can handle it all. Yeah. So...

you know, it's really nice. I have to say like getting over that, that little hump of babyhood. That had to be like a season of your life, like a very different kind of, were your kids, how old were your kids during COVID? They

They were young. The boys were two and a half and Ari was like one and a half. Oh, wow. So they were super young. That's kind of nice. That age to have... I was happy because they were too young to know the craziness of the world. And they were young enough to where it was like, okay, well, let's... We're home all the time. Let's potty train them. And, you know, let's like just have fun at home. Yeah. So that was kind of nice. And, you know, we kind of had this nice...

we both started doing videos at home. We turned our home into a business and I turned my front room into a studio to do fitness.

And Natalie turned our bedroom into a makeup studio and did makeup lessons every day. So every day it'd be like, I'm live. She's live. You're live. You know, the kids are alive, you know? And, and yeah. And I mean that I really do credit that to how we kind of, or how I especially blew up online because it was, it was the whole, the whole house was, you know, in this kind of networking of,

networking space. You had work to do. Yeah, we had work to do and it worked. And you know what? We were, and we were so fulfilled. So I think that's one of the things that was kind of scary for people during COVID. You just, those of us that, a lot of us, because I didn't have work anymore either in person. If you didn't have work in person and you were, you know, not knowing what to do with yourself, it was,

kind of weird oh my god it was so weird yeah so weird and so easy i feel to become like restless but and so easy to make an excuse to be depressed oh my everyone was just like this sucks and it's like you know kind of like that thing yeah well it was a depressing time it could be so easily depressing that whole time period was crazy i can't believe we like really lived through that and now i know i see pictures of myself with masks on and i'm like what were you like

I like don't even want to look at them. I know it honestly it feels like in some ways like almost like two years of my life like was robbed of me and it was also yeah for me the end of my 20s like I turned 30. Yeah. Right after and I just like wow kind of like lost that time in a way which I remember when I hit 30 I was pretty you know it kind of hit me hard. Really? Because

Yeah, because I wanted to have kids. There was always something that I really wanted, maybe because I was an only child or I just innately have always wanted to be a mother. And I just remember when my mother had me at 31. So I remember just hitting the age that she was when she got pregnant and being like, you're going to have a kid after your mom, like after my mom had me, like to me, my mom had me at, you

you know, kind of not late in life, but 30 was then. Yeah, totally. And then when I was 30, I was like, OK, well, you need to settle down and kind of figure this out now. Yeah. And the biological clock. Yeah. So like I was kind of really not OK because that sent me into the wrong path of forcing something. And then that was not good. Yeah.

Did not work. Cut to back on through flew off the railing lesbian railing went that way went wrong way. And I had to get back on and no but then immediately after I you know, got with Natalie and we kind of really it all worked out. Did you always know you were going to have? Did you always know both of you were going to carry a kid?

like early on, where you were like, I want to have babies and you want to have babies. Like both of you were on that page together. Yes. When I was going through it, we always knew I'd go first because I was a little bit more comfortable with the whole like getting pregnant as a lesbian. Yeah. And I think Natalie really needed to see me go through it in order to just see kind of how it all works and, you know, all of that. So

We always knew I'd go first and we always knew that shortly after we wanted to have a second. And then when I got pregnant with twins, we kind of looked at each other and was like, what do we mean? You know? And like I said, immediately after we had like in the hospital when we were when after I'd given birth, we both looked at each other and I was like, get pregnant tomorrow. Wow. This is the best thing that's ever happened. That's awesome.

-That's amazing. -It was kind of crazy, yeah. Like, I was so-- I mean, I just remember that time. It's really emotional, like right after you have a kid.

And you just like really fall in love with your partner when they are just there for you. And for me, I mean, I went through it. I had I was getting induced. It didn't work. I had to get a C-section. Then there was like an emergency during my C-section. Like they had to push her out of the room. And while it was kind of like just a crazy experience. Not what you thought your birth plan was going to be.

No, I thought I was gonna pop these babies, not both of them. I actually didn't really know how I was gonna do that, but because I think I can do anything, I was like, "Don't worry, I'll go natural."

And then my doctor was like, yeah, your kid was so high up in your ribs that we had to have three people pull. No. Yeah, because I had one here and I have a small frame. So when my second son was so far up here that I remember two people pulling. Oh, my God.

Oh my God. I tell him that story all the time too. I say, you didn't want to come out, Jack. You wanted to be so close to my heart. And he tells a story now. He'll be like, I wanted to be so close to mama's heart that I didn't want to come out. They had to pull me out. That's so good.

So technically, is he the younger of the two? It's funny because people always say that. They'll be like, oh, Jesse's your older brother. And I'm so protective in the sense that I'm like, no, Jack, you are the same age as Jesse. You are both equal. Literally. I'm so equal rights. You know? It's like even if you're four minutes later, I'm...

no you guys are the same so i try to i try to say that they are but um i just saw sorry to cut you off but i just saw a video of these 18 year old twins that they their parents never told them who came out first and then they told them like on their 18th birthday which one was the older of the two i was like that's so funny i guess you could never tell them i know they wouldn't even and honestly if i didn't if we didn't say anything you'd think that jack came out first because he's

-a bit bigger. - Yeah. So you would think that he came out first. Which is like, that is not how it works. No, but I think anytime I say, "Oh, you know, Jesse came out first," people are always like,

-Oh, okay. -Because he's tinier. And he was bigger at birth too. It was like, Jesse was like a little bit bigger and it's like, "Take that." "Jesse, you got that one." It's wild. I've been saying, like, I think that this is like, 2024 has been the year for the lesbians. We have so much going for us, so much representation. We have all these artists making all these songs. Now we have Kamala running for president. It's like the year for women, -the year for the lesbian. -I agree. It's like, I think, I hope,

I hope it really rounds it out. - I really do too. - I just like, I never get ahead of myself with anything and I also just am so superstitious.

So I am very careful with the way that I talk about anything. But anyone who follows me knows where I stand politically because I'm very open and out about it as my life, as my sexuality. I'm out. I'm an out Democrat. You're not hiding anything. I'm not hiding anything. And I believe it's important. I think, you know, I truly believe that you can post your fuck, whatever the hell you want about your outfit of the day. But,

But what's important right now to me is spreading the message of how important it is to vote right now. Totally. So, you know, I am not going to shy away from it just because it is an uncomfortable subject. No. And yeah, so I'm fully out.

And I'm fully out for Kamala and Tim. Tim, you've really made your way into my heart these last weeks since you've been picked. I love him. I mean, who doesn't love Tim? He's so cute. I know. I hope. Yeah. I love how they try to come for him. And then he's just like, oh, yeah, like I'm such a monster for giving kids lunch. Literally. He just has the perfect response. I know. He's really like crushing. He's really like he is like.

our grandpa or dad or whatever they're saying about him he's giving he is just he's honestly like he's he's so cool he's so great i'm so proud of like her for picking someone who just compliments her so well agreed and you know i have always been not a not someone who's gonna jump on any kind of negativity so i just feel like she's

I'm all in for Kamala. - Come on Kamala. - Kamala. - Kamala, we love you. - We're both out now for you. - We're both out, yeah. I'm like, I hope everyone knew that about me. I'm like, yeah. - If not, you heard it here first. I've just outed Shannon. - You just outed me. No, I've definitely been reposting. I'm like, come on, we can do this. Okay, well. - I think, yeah. - Did we do it? - I mean, I honestly think we did. I just wanna tell you also that

I know I said it during the podcast, but I cannot tell you how just special it is for me to be here. I feel like your whole... What you are doing, the podcast, the interviews you're doing, people you're getting on, it's definitely something that everyone is seeing, everyone is watching, and...

you are gonna create even more of the next generation of people who are unapologetically themselves and living your truth. - Thank you so much. I appreciate that so much. Thank you. And I'm so, you really did, what did they say to you? That you ran so I could walk or whatever? - Oh yeah, they say you walk

so you could run. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I walked so you could run. - Well, I think we're both running. - I mean, listen, I'm still running. You better watch that challenge. I still can run, okay? - Truly though. No, I appreciate you. I appreciate anyone and everyone who like came out before I did because without y'all, it would not be, this would not be.

We needed every little ounce of representation is like so important so that we can keep going. And I hope, I can't even imagine like the world your kids are going to grow up in. Well, I really hope that we...

- Decide that soon and that my kids have a beautiful future ahead of them. - Yeah, and they do. - Of acceptance. - Yeah, for sure. - Yeah. - Well, thank you so much for coming. - Thank you, Shannon. - I appreciate it so much. - It was so great to be here, yeah. - I literally can't believe you're in my bed. - You can't believe I'm in your bed? Neither can my wife. - No, I know, I'm so sorry. - No, I'm just kidding.

Sorry, everyone does that. Really? Yes, it's really bad. I am moving, so there will be a new set. So you won't have like a shelf right over? Yeah, hopefully. I made this, so I was proud of it. Wow, I couldn't do that. I could like run five miles, but I'm not handy. Well, I can't run five miles and I could make this shelf. That's pretty cool. We're different. I love that.

Thank you again for coming. If you guys do have anything, I mean, obviously, listen guys, you know, the challenge. Well, you know what we could do? Like I could put up a little discount code. Like you can use, you can use Shannon 10, uh, Rachel fitness.com. Everybody can get 10% off of any subscription. Um, follow along on my journey through the challenge 40 and on Instagram and anyone can join a workout. Like if grand,

granted if you're in LA it's pretty early for you but anyone can join a live workout really at 6 30 a.m is when I do it but that's east coast um but if you're I don't know coming home from the bars and you feel like working out at 3 30 in the morning listen you could put on the your instagram and you can go straight on and do the workout go crazy I have a lot of east coast followers so yeah as your east coast you could be working out at 6 30.

I'm gonna, I want to look like you. So I've got things to do. - I think you look great. I think we're both doing real well. - We're doing okay. We're doing okay. But yeah, follow Rachel on everything. I'll have all her socials below. I'll put that link so you guys can check out if you are trying to get fit.

Like I'm trying to get fit. And apparently you can watch the challenge on YouTube. Yeah, you can also buy the YouTube channel on YouTube if you don't have cable. Which we were talking about before we started recording. Because that's like my biggest thing with like all of these reality shows. I'm like, how can I watch it? So you can watch it on YouTube. I'll put the link for that too. You guys should definitely watch it. And yeah, follow Rachel on everything. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Thank you. I'm so happy. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.