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Shownotes Transcript
Okay, hi guys. Happy Wednesday. I'm your host, Shannon Beveridge, back with another episode of X's and O's. I've never said that like that. It's a whole new way to say it. Sorry. But hey. What a special episode I have for you here today. If you told 10-year-old me that one day... Well, if you told 10-year-old me anything about my life right now, I'd be like, what? What?
the fuck are you talking about? But if you told 10 year old me that my parents would be sitting down having like a very sweet, amicable, amazing, like conversation on camera together to share to the world, I definitely would not believe you. Even more than that,
I wouldn't believe the friendship that they have with each other. It's so sweet and nice. And I'm just like really, I'm really, really excited for you guys to just, I don't know, see my family also, like see my parents together, their dynamic. And I think it's like a bigger insight into who I am. And I hope that you enjoy it. I'm so, so grateful.
for them for doing this episode. I know that like being on camera is not everyone's favorite thing in the whole entire world. And I do mention that in the episode too. But anyway, just want to say again, huge props to my parents for sitting down and having this conversation together and with me and for all of you because...
No one has to do that ever, which is crazy. I hope you don't mind the minimal setup today. I just traveled yesterday for like over 16 hours. I can't remember exactly how long it took me, but I flew from Venice to Germany, from Germany to LA, got back last night, and then I've been editing this episode. So I'm just like trying to do this quickly. But I wanted to give you guys a couple updates too.
One is that you no longer can watch the podcast on Spotify. So if that's where you used to watch it, you're going to have to watch it on YouTube now. You can still listen to it everywhere, but you can only watch it on YouTube. And that's because I changed distribution thing. It's a positive thing because it's because of positive things for the podcast. But I wish that you could watch it on Spotify and YouTube. I prefer that personally also, but I'm sorry that is...
That is just the way that it's going to be for right now. I'm so sorry, but it does mean good things for the podcast in general. So I'm happy. I'm happy, which also leads me to a mental health check, which I think I've forgotten to do the last like three episodes potentially, at least the last two. I honestly think it's just because I've been so busy, not anything to do with my state of my mental health, but the state of my mental health has been really positive for
Obviously, coming off of a big trip with my family, I'm both like full of joy and love and I'm also exhausted. I think a 10-day trip in Europe in general is a lot for anyone and then you do it with your family and it's like,
Yes, I'm tired. I'm so tired, but I am so, so happy and I'm so grateful for the experience to get to travel with my family. I know not everyone gets that choice, choice, chance. Not everyone gets that chance and definitely many less people get the chance to travel with their divorced parents. So again, grateful, happy. My cup is so full. I'm like, can't believe it. I can't believe it. I'm
I'm so, so happy, genuinely. So that's good. Second thing, and it's in the same vein as happiness because I am hosting a party for Pride this year in New York.
with Gay Joy. It is on June 20th at Elsewhere in Brooklyn and you can buy tickets May 24th, which is this Friday. This Friday tickets will go on sale. But yeah, 21 and up and the tickets I think are $40. So yeah,
Please come and join me. I'm entering my promoter era. No, I'm kidding. Gay Joy is such a cool party in and of itself. They did a party last year for Pride too. But this year we are collaborating with each other just to like make it special. And yeah, I don't know. I'm so happy. I'm so, so stoked. This is going to be...
Just a whole podcast would be saying I'm so happy. But I am. I have so much gay joy. And I hope you guys will come to Gay Joy and I'll be there to party with you. I really...
Never thought I'd be hosting parties, but here we are and I am so stoked. It's going to be so fun. There will be DJs and there will be more information on my Instagram for you guys to check out. But yeah, the tickets will go on sale on Friday. So I hope you'll come if you're in New York or if you're nearby New York and willing to travel not too, too far. I hope you'll come and hang out with me and my friends who will also be there.
Okay. I also just wanted to give some context into my parents' divorce because I realized we didn't ever say, but yeah, my parents got divorced when I was 10. So they have not been together for 22 years, which is crazy to think of now. But yeah, their relationship has not always looked the way that it did in this podcast episode. So it's just so lovely and amazing and nice to have them.
your parents be friendly and civil and even more than that travel with each other and stuff like it's so bizarre but so nice and I guess
my my thinking is if you're in a position and your parents are going through a hard time or potentially getting divorced or they are divorced maybe just maybe this could be like a little bit of hope into the future that you could have and or if you're going through a divorce and things feel like they will never get better and or just a breakup just a normal breakup and things feel terrible and awful and like you'll never ever ever be able to see each other the same way again it is possible but
It is possible. I've seen it happen a few times, but definitely my parents are a great example of that. So if you're going through a hard time just now, it might get better. It might get so friendly that you're on a 10 day cruise, seven day cruise, but that is unique for sure. That is unique.
I hope you guys all have a wonderful week. You can find the link to the party with Gay Joy below and on my Instagram. And yeah, be kind. Be kind to each other. Be kind in the comments. Please be kind in the comments to my parents. I'm so grateful that they did this podcast episode. Be kind to me. Be kind to everyone online. Always. If you can. I don't know why you couldn't. It's so easy to be. Okay. Love you. Bye.
Today we're here with Shannon Beveridge. Today we're here with Shannon Beveridge. Somewhere in the middle. Normal, not dramatic. Testing, testing, testing. We have a live audience with us. My sister and my brother-in-law. But I'll call him my brother. But I don't want you to get confused about that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Are you guys ready?
Yeah, I think so. Okay, hi guys. Welcome back to X's and O's, a podcast where we talk about queer relationships and sex. And today we have potentially two of the most important podcast guests we've ever had on the pod because without them I wouldn't exist. So neither would the podcast. My mom and dad. Hey. Woo!
Hey. Hey. I only have two microphones because we are currently in Venice. Can you tell? Yeah, so I only have two mics because we're traveling. So I'm sharing a mic with my mom. I hope that I'm going to do a really good job of bouncing back and forth between us. I think it will be fine. But yeah, I'm just giving you a heads up beforehand. Anyway, let's start with some introductions because you guys have probably seen my mom and dad. If you follow me on social media for a while...
They've both been in YouTube videos of mine, right? Right. Right? They're both a little bit nervous today to be on the podcast and I'll tell you why. One...
This is my job, not their job. Two, they really always get nervous that when they're on it, it's not going to do well. They want it to do well. So please hype them up in the comments. Tell them that you love them. Tell them what a good job they do. We haven't even done anything yet, but let them know they rock. Okay, Jim, let's start with you. Well, let's start with mom. Oh, okay. Perfect.
Deb, let's start with you. Would you introduce yourself to the people? Tell them your name, where are you from? Do you have siblings? What was your job? Now, oh my god, you both don't have a job right now. Retired. Okay, go. Okay, so my name, Debbie Beveridge. I am an RN, recently retired from pediatric nursing. Grew up in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.
I have, I had, well, I still have four brothers. Two have, no, not two. What the hell is happening? Whose family is it? Do you know? One has passed away. One has passed away. And the other three are in Pennsylvania still.
And what number are you in that lineup? That's not correct. One's in Virginia. Oh, my God. What number are you? Second oldest. Dad, what about you? She's a Philly girl is what she is. She's a Philly girl. For those of you who don't know where Ben Salem, Pennsylvania is, it's outside of Philly.
Yeah, buddy. All right. I grew up outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in a town called Webster, which is a very, very, very small town on the Monongahela River. I'm the oldest of three boys. My parents have both passed away. One of my brothers passed away just recently. What else would you like to know? What did you do for a living? Um...
I went to, well, let's start with college, right? I'm not an RN. I went to college in Erie, got a bachelor's degree there, went to grad school in Philly. That's when I met your mother out there. I worked for Mellon Bank, which is now Bank of New York Mellon.
And then after that, I went to work for Bank One, which is now JPMorgan Chase. So I spent most of my career in banking, but not traditional banking. I was sort of on the audit side and then security side fighting crime, injustice and evil in the financial services industry. Hell yeah, he was. Yeah. He's a badass. No, sissy, but that's okay. Yeah, right. Okay. So Pennsylvania, both of you, Pennsylvania people, like what was your childhood like? What was your family life like?
So lots, lots of boys. I was the only girl, of course. We just like hung out, watched cartoons on Saturdays, the whole gang. My mom would like have the whole neighborhood over our house and we'd all hang out. That was fun. Did your parents, your mom also had a bunch of animals? Yes, we did. We had like a pony, a
Rabbits, turtles. A monkey. A monkey, a squirrel monkey, really cute. Cats and dogs, like a little bit of everything out in our backyard. And you also had birds that your brothers traumatized you with, and that's why you have a severe fear of birds now, right?
Absolutely. Yeah. We had two parakeets and my mom would let them out to fly around. And so I didn't like when they came flying at me. So I would go hide in my room and then I would ask my brothers if the birds were back in the cages and they would be, oh yeah, the birds are back in the cages. And then of course I'd come out and the birds come flying at me. So now I'm scared to death of birds. Scared to death of birds. Most important fun fact about Debbie Beverage.
Also, what was your relationship with like with your parents since you guys are my parents? I don't know. We were raised, we didn't have a lot of money. Just kind of struggled to get by. My dad kind of struggled with depression.
And we just did what we could to make it and get through. We were poor, but we weren't rock bottom poor. We were sort of lower middle class. I thought we were rich because we had a bathroom. So in Webster, PA, a lot of families had outhouses. That tells you a lot. So Pittsburgh is the largest city in Appalachia. And a lot of folks don't know that.
We were south of Pittsburgh and we were sort of Appalachia. I thought as a kid, everybody's father worked in a steel mill or a coal mine. That's how it seemed to me. And it was all men then who worked in those places.
And when the steel mills or the coal mines were closed, you know, people went without work. There were a lot of times where people were laid off. So they made good money when they worked. My dad, for example, worked at a steel mill. He was a pipe fitter. But they were out a lot. And then the steel mills closed, many of them. My dad's steel mill closed when I was still like in ninth grade. So then you're really in trouble. So my dad got a job as a security guard. I was embarrassed. Years later, though...
I was able to tell him how proud of him I was because he didn't give up. Yeah. Cute. Yeah. And what was your mom like? Well, I mean, they were both, I thought they were great. I mean, everybody liked my mother. Everybody was scared of my dad, that big, you know, lug. But he could be pretty grumpy, if not mean. But yeah, it was pretty normal. You know, I mean, we did what we did. I didn't know we were poor because everybody around us was pretty much in the same place.
until I went to high school and then you start merging, you know, interacting with kids who are from better neighborhoods or wealthier neighborhoods. But, you know, we never went hungry or, you know, we were never...
without. Yeah. So it's all good. And we had a bathroom if I didn't mention it. Yeah. And they had a bathroom. The most important part. I'm going to refer to my notes more on this episode than I typically do. Typically I go more conversation based, but there's like a lot of questions I really want to ask you guys. So if you're watching the podcast today and you're seeing me looking at my phone, it's because I'm looking at my questions because I've written them down. I also prepped my parents a little bit, gave them a heads up on what the questions were because I
just so you guys know doing like a podcast or being on video is like very not normal if you're not used to doing it so it's crazy true and i've obviously been doing it for a long time and usually i think the guests i have on typically are more like social media or influencers or artists or whatever used to being on on camera so give my parents grace because they are they are so charismatic and amazing too so
Thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast. It's so nice of you. Anything for you. That was your family life, both of you, growing up in Pennsylvania. How did you meet each other? Who wants to tell the story? She can tell the story. She'll get it wrong, but she can tell. Okay, so I was working as a nurse, and I had saved up some money, and I bought a house by myself when I was 25. So one day I went out and took a bike ride, and I had just bought a Chevy Cavalier.
So I saw this guy washing his car at the car wash. So I was like, oh, maybe I should go ask that guy how he likes his car because mostly it was like young women or old men who drove Cavaliers back then. So...
Then I was like, oh, I already bought it. What's the point of going back and asking? But I got a little further down the road, and I was like, yeah, I think I will go back and ask him. So I drove back, and it was Jim. And so we had a long conversation at the car wash, and then he told me he's new in town, and I said, well, maybe sometime when I'm going out with my friends, if you want to come along, maybe.
We can get in touch. And he's like, well, give me your number. And I was like, I don't like to give out my number. So I said, I'll take your number and I'll call you sometime. So I called him a couple weeks later and he didn't answer the phone. So I hung up.
And then a couple of weeks after that, I called and he didn't answer again. And I just left a message and said, Hey, this is Debbie. I was just trying to get in touch with you. And he told me later that he had been dating another girl named Debbie. And so when he heard my voice, he realized it wasn't that Debbie. And he went and ran for the phone, but I had already hung up.
So another few weeks went by and I thought I'm gonna try him one more time and if he doesn't answer I'm just gonna pitch this number. So I called him and that time he answered and we had a long conversation and he was like you can ask my mom I'm a nice guy she'll tell you. And so he asked me to go out to dinner so we went to dinner and that was the beginning.
That's so cute. It's a really cute meeting story. Yeah. I mean, I'm there washing my car in a car wash. So I worked at the bank, but I was also attending bar in Trenton, New Jersey, which, you know, this car wash was about halfway between. And I was not dressed up. I was not cleaned up. I was going to go. Actually, I was going to go to the gym before I went to the bar to work.
And I see this little girl, who I thought was like 12, ride by in a bicycle, and she was wearing gray sweatpants and sweatshirt. And I paid her no mind. I thought it was a little kid, truly, on this bike. Yeah, she's tiny. And I was washing, like working on my tires. And then suddenly, this person shows up behind me, beside me, and it's your mother. And she goes, how do you like your car? And I said...
I like it. Okay. You know, we start talking. Anyway, I told her I was new in town then. And I said, yeah,
Because I was. This is Philadelphia area and I came from Pittsburgh, you know, outside of that space. But anyway, I said, give me your number. And she goes, like she said, I don't give my number out. And I said, I'll give you my mother's number. She'll tell you I'm a nice person. Cute. But she didn't. She doesn't remember that part. But anyway, so she did. She memorized my number. I said, my number is whatever it was. And I thought, I'll never hear from this woman again.
When we did connect, I was at work after that, and I said to the guys I worked with, I said, I'm going to go meet this woman. We're going to have dinner. I don't remember what she looks like, and I've only seen her in sweatpants. I hope she's cute. Also, at that point, it had been like weeks since you guys. Oh, yeah. It was a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. A slow burn, if you will. Slow burn. You guys did not U-Haul it. No, we did not. Yeah.
Well, she was dating two other guys at the same time, too. And you were dating another girl named Debbie. And a girl named Maggie. Okay. Okay, so you're both dating around. It's a cute story, though, how you guys met. So one other thing. So I did have a date with this other guy, and Jim had asked me out, I think, and I said I was busy. I had something I had to do. So he sent flowers to my house. I did.
Because he was hoping that that other guy would see the flowers and be curious about like why I had them. That is nice move. I knew she had a date so I sent flowers to the house. How long were y'all married? 17 years.
Are you debating that? No. 17 years. I was going to say 16, but it's okay. 17 beautiful years together. 17 long years. Yeah, I don't know. Did I mention at the beginning y'all are divorced? No. Oh, these are my parents. They are divorced. Okay.
I probably should have mentioned that. Just for clarity. I'm sure I'll make it the title or something. But yeah, these are my divorced parents. We are on a vacation together. We went on a seven-day cruise and now we have two extra days in Venice. We had one beginning day in Barcelona. Would you guys ever get back together? That's not going to happen. We're buddies. We get along. We're good. We're friends. We're friends. That's good.
I keep joking that I'm going to parent trap them. And I told them that because they didn't know I was saying that, I guess. They should not be together. It's awesome that they're friends. Me and my sister are very happy that they are friends. But yeah, we're also happy that you're not married to each other anymore. We're in agreement with that. Yeah, I think we're all on the same page, right? But on that note, I do have one question I need to know the answer to. When is the last time you guys kissed on the lips?
Oh, my God. It's been long. We were married 17 years. Might have been our fourth year. It's been a long time. Well, how old are you? How old are you? Oh, my God. Well, I'm 32. I know. I'm kidding. So, 32 years ago. 32 years ago. Somewhere around there. That's so funny. Okay. I just had to ask. Okay. Okay.
Okay, I want to talk about gender roles in your relationship. Obviously, this podcast is for my audience and a lot of my audience is queer and you guys are not queer. But I think gender roles are something that is universally something that you can talk about between queer relationships and straight relationships. So I think it's interesting.
Casey went through this and changed things, so I don't have to read it. What were the gender roles in your relationship? Do you feel like they were heteronormative kind of gender role vibes? Do you guys know what I'm even asking? I know what you're asking, but I don't think we ever thought about it. No, I'd say that we were pretty traditional in that way, like dad-
worked the most and I mostly stayed home with the kids although I did work as a nurse here and there through that time like who is more I asked you guys this earlier but like who is more high maintenance of the two of you dad I I'm I don't like do a lot of fixing up or anything I'm pretty low maintenance what would you say
I thought the question was... I mean, it is the same question. High maintenance is not an insult. It's not meant to be a bad way. But like, which one of you takes care of yourself more? Manicures, self-manicures, like buys themselves nicer things, like...
I would argue that you're metrosexual. Yeah, but I don't spend money on manicures. I don't think I've ever... No, no, no. Manicure is like... I know, I know. Right? Yes. I just... I think I do pay more attention to, you know, how I feel, how I look, how I'm like taking care of myself. Like whether it's going to the gym, which I do constantly or I've done as long as I can remember. But...
ADHD has a lot to do with that too, right? You got to burn that stuff off. But no, I think your mom is much, much more just go, you know, with the flow. She's chill. I'm somehow a perfect mixture of both of you, I feel, in that way. Do you feel as though you have very maternal instincts? What kind of question is that? I mean, in some ways I do, I think, you know, I don't.
Care about you guys. Do you have a nurturing vibe about yourself? Okay, I feel like you two might not think that way about me, but I think that might come from the way I grew up with, I mean, I know my mom cared about us, but I felt like she was just so young when she got married and overwhelmed with having a lot of kids and she didn't maybe nurture us as much as she might have.
So I don't know whether I had a good role model for that. You have nurturing things about you. I just think my point is, since we're talking about gender roles, ironic, I feel like dad had more of a nurturing role
which almost is like more of a maternal thing, which probably lends to also that you had a more nurturing mom. I mean, June just looked at everybody in a positive way. That's just the way she was. That's my grandma, my dad's mom. Would you say you have a nurturing instinct in you? Yes. But I don't know that it's all just because of my mom or my dad or whatever. It's that I had the sense that there wasn't a lot maybe from the other side of the,
parenting side so I felt the need to sort of maybe fill in some gaps if that makes sense right I'm not criticizing anybody but I don't think so because I think that's just your your personality type is you are a little bit more what is the way to say this because it's not an insult to you mom I love you I love you too
But I think it's something you do with other people too, like with friends, with kids, with whatever. You're a little bit more like he's softer. And he always looks out for the underdog kind of. He's got that personality for that.
People used to tell me, my aunts and stuff, you know, as I was growing up, that I had my mother's good-hearted thing, right? However you wanted to find that, where she would, like Debbie said, where she would find the good in people and she would take care of the underdog and so on and so forth, that kind of stuff. But they would also say, you got your dad's hard-ass thing going, too. And I thought, you know, there's some truth to that because...
Like I'm a nice guy, but I'm not a nice guy because I want something from you. I don't do it to get things. I don't do it to manipulate you. As a matter of fact, all through my career, I'd be going, man, I'm a nice guy, but it's not, I'm a nice guy because I want to be a nice guy. I'm a nice guy because I think you should be nice to people.
Then I would say, I don't know anybody that's had more fights than me. Now, I know they're out there, but I never knew anybody. So, like you talk to most guys, you know, you talk to me, you go, have you ever had a fight? And they'll go, yeah, in ninth grade, I got in a fight, you know, that kind of thing. I had a lot of fights. Physical fights. Physical fights. But I never started a fight. I never picked on anybody. I never did that. It was just, sometimes it was defending or helping someone else, but it was generally...
you know, in response to something, not me going out looking for a fight. Did your relationship with your own parents, like impact the way you wanted to raise me and Casey? Of course. For sure. Yeah. Would you like to add to that? Uh, well, I mean, I think, like I said, I felt like my mom was overwhelmed, you know, with too many kids, too young. Um, so I felt like I always pretty much had to take care of myself. And, uh,
And when I raised you, I wanted you girls to be independent and able to take care of yourself. And I think that's why we encouraged you to go to school and, you know, be independent. Yeah. And you did.
We did. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, how would they parent it clearly plays a role in how you parent, no matter what. I mean, you can think that what they do, you can think, well, I'll do that because it was good, right? Whatever that might be. And then you may think, well, I'll never do that because I don't want to be that guy. But you sort of do it too, right? The one thing that...
I think set my parents apart from all of my friends' parents was that I knew that they loved me. No matter what they did, no matter how they treated me, I always knew they loved me. And I tried to convey that too, no matter how much of a nincompoop I might be or knucklehead I might be, that I loved you.
Okay, well, you guys, obviously, you were married for a long time. 17 years is a long time to be married to someone. Then you broke up, obviously, but now you have a different kind of relationship with each other. What is your advice on how to make a relationship last? I don't know if I have good advice about that. I could have advice about how to get along after that.
Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Why do you think you guys are able to be friends now? Either one can answer. Well, because you don't have all the tension. You don't have any of the, my money's my money, her money's her money. We're not raising kids anymore. There's less room, areas to disagree about anything, right? There's less...
There are fewer pressure points. There's just not a lot to get at each other over. And plus, I've gotten older and I'm less combative or less, that's not even the right word. Combative is pretty broad, but I'm just easier going. I think for me it's more that it's important for you girls that we get along.
And that when we can all like get together and, you know, everything is more, um, just happy to be together. Okay. Well, let's talk about the elephant in the room then. You guys live together. Yeah.
And me and Casey live in New York City and Los Angeles. So that's obviously not leaning into that being important for us. Like me and Casey don't need you to live together. You have, you guys really have a friendship, a sweet, really adorable friendship with each other that has nothing to do with Casey and I at the same time. Also Casey and I at the same time, right? But
You can't ignore that. I mean, it mostly has to do with you, but we still get along okay. I mean, we get along better now that we're not connected in the same way. Now that you're just roommates. It's been two weeks, right? I mean, it's not like it's been two years. They just moved in with each other, you guys. It's just a temporary situation. She has her own room.
She has her own bedroom. I just think it's funny because I think that you guys, I think you guys like each other more than you want to let on. Not romantically. Not in a romantic way. You're not raising kids. You're not sharing money. You don't have your friend. You're literally friends. Well, I mean, I care about dad, you know? I mean, he's a good person and he's your dad. So, like, I still try to look out for him.
I think you guys are family almost. I mean, not almost. You are family. Well, we never stopped being family. Yeah. That's the thing. You get married and I don't care who, you have children, you're never, well, there's obviously examples or exceptions, but for most people, when you have kids, you're still tethered. Yeah. You know, they have kids, there's graduations, there's birthdays, whatever. All those things happen. And therefore, you're still connected. You're never...
Just a different way. The thing is, first of all, let me just say, before you get married, go for premarital counseling. I happen to know a psychologist who might recommend that. And I'm not talking about any family members. I'm talking about my therapist. Go for premarital therapy. Make sure you're thinking along the same lines, that you have consistent...
and goals and objectives and you can get together on financial stuff is really what killed your mother and me. It was just money. Mom! Yes and no. Yes and no. But anyway, go ahead. Okay, I'm not a marriage counselor and I'm not here to start right now. Okay. No, we're not.
But what I will say is it is beautiful that you guys are friends. I think it's a very unique situation. Every time I talk about you guys on social media or post about it, everyone's like, that's crazy. I can't believe it. And it is sweet. Could you be a little nicer to that guy? We get along now that we don't have to deal with all that other stuff. I like him because he's your dad. I'm like, you're...
We're also not even in Texas. And I'll call you guys and you'll be like, I'm out at dinner. And I'm like, with who? And you'll be like, with your dad. I'm like, literally, you don't have to do that. Because I don't want him to be alone. So you're rescuing him? No, but I just want to make sure he knows somebody cares about him. There was a movie. I don't know if this is going to be in the video.
This is the closest she can come to things. It's like my dad, you know. No, no, he didn't say you even. He said, you know I love you boys, right? It was like, yeah, dad. You okay? There was a movie that came out with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman that I really liked. It was Far and Away. Do you remember that movie, Jerk?
Great movie. And I can identify with it on a number of levels because, you know, they were Irish. There was an Irish Protestant, Irish Catholic in the mix, right? And they come to the United States and end up in Oklahoma. I thought it was a great movie. But about halfway through, they're in Boston, right? And she's the wealthy one and they're broke. They're having trouble. And they don't really like each other, but he likes her. But she's not buying into this thing.
And to get by, he finds out that he can box and he's winning boxing matches, right? And he wins and wins and wins until he doesn't win. But as he's winning, he's feeding them. That's how they're getting, you know, making their way. And he buys himself a derby hat. He might have bought more than one. I can't remember for sure. But at some point he gets mad at her. He said, I just want you to like my hat.
Tom Cruise goes, I just want you to like my hat. And I said, your mother, that's me. I just want you to like me, right? Like my hat. Like what I'm doing. Appreciate me for what I'm doing. Well, I don't need that. That was her. I don't need those things. I don't need that. I don't need this. You're doing it for you.
Because you put my makeup on. Pause. But does that make sense, the movie thing? Yes, yes, yes. Is everyone okay?
I just realized I might need a tissue for some of this. Torture. Enough torture. Sorry. Let's get into something else. Let's talk about gayness. Queerness. Okay. I can do that. Okay. When you guys were younger, what did you know about the gay community and what was visibility like? I mean...
I didn't really ever talk about that or like I didn't know anybody growing up that was gay. It never was a conversation in the family. I mean, until things came up with you, it's like it really didn't exist for me, you know. I mean, I knew there were people that were gay out there, but I never really...
resonated in my world you had limited exposure in your own life very limited all right dad what about you you know I gotta I'm trying to I think I was in fifth grade if if not fifth maybe fourth but I'm thinking fifth and the idea that I just sort of was learning you know the facts of life and hearing stuff on the street you know from other older guys and
And my dad took me for pizza. And he told me the facts of life, which made no sense. The birds and the bees? Yeah, sort of.
He had this thing about, you know, sometimes we had old women teachers. He's telling me sometimes, you know, when your teacher's in a bad mood once a month. And I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. I mean, not a clue. But it never, like, dawned on me. It never occurred to me or I didn't hear anything about, you know, maybe...
two men or two women would have sex, right? It never came up. He didn't mention it. I never heard it. And I never like imagined it. Like it wasn't something in my, the back of my brain.
but it was fourth or fifth grade probably fifth uh lou lived across the street i won't mention his last name but lou was a really nice guy he was about my dad's age and about my dad's size and so lou was cross street was always nice and uh one day my dad just arbitrarily on the front porch of the house says and i might it wasn't like a in vogue thing to say although i didn't know it he says lou lou's queer and i said yeah
What's that mean? He says he likes men. But I will tell you this. What was one of the things that was remarkable about that was after my dad told me that story, his relationship never changed with Lou. Like they still engaged on the street. I mean, when I went to one of my proms, Lou was taking pictures of Kathy and me, the girl I went to prom with.
And my dad and my mom never, ever said anything bad. Like I didn't, like, you know, about anybody. What was I like as a kid? Like as a little girl, you were kind of like, you had a really deep voice. And you just kind of toddled around. And it's like, I used to say, your voice sounds like a truck driver. Yeah.
Because it was so deep for such a little tiny tot. So there's the difference between your mom and me. Truck driver to me more. What was my personality like? Like what was I, just what was I like? You were just really funny. So funny. Always just hilarious. But one other thing is like Casey was always, now that I look back, a girly girl. Like she always wanted to wear dresses and play with Barbies and everything.
built a whole apartment complexes with Barbies and did all this, you know, stuff. And so she was five years older than you. So we had all these dresses and all this girl stuff. And you came along and you were like,
I don't want to wear that dress. It's like, but we've got all these cute dresses. And you guys were like size-wise so close together. You were much bigger than her. So within a year or two, you could wear her clothes. So I'm like, but we have all these like cute little dresses for you. And you just were like, no, I don't want to wear that.
It did not look right on me. Yeah, you didn't feel comfortable in that. Casey was a girly girl. And I remember talking to friends and my dad, even I said, I know it's crazy, but I'm sitting in the front room with Casey playing with Barbies.
That was around the time you were born. And I had never done anything like that. We're having tea and all this stuff. And I'm going, my God, where did this come from? For me, right? But it was cute. And she was very feminine, for sure. But Casey played soccer. She did every kind of sport you could do. We did everything that we could do with her. She tried. She was a good athlete. Yeah.
She did like it. But she didn't have the passion for it that Shanna did. So there's a difference, I think. It's not like she didn't like it. The famous thing with Casey was in Ohio where she got cold.
playing soccer and she sat down and I thought she was hurt and everybody on the sidelines thought she was in terrible pain she was crying and they come out and put a blanket around her and they took her off the sideline and so I went all the ways around that court and came on the back and I go to the coach who was like a German or Austrian soccer expert guy he goes no she's cold so she sat down in the field because she was cold you were to me just like Casey very much a
Just a typical kid, you know? And funny. You're a typical younger kid, too, right? It's like, the more serious, the more, you know.
I don't even know how I'm going to edit this right now. I don't even know how I'm editing where we are right now because we just went so off. Sorry. We are having family discussions. Imagine that mid-podcast episode, which is beautiful, but a nightmare for me to edit. So if anything ever feels really confusingly cut, it's because of that. Anyway, dad, I do think, when I think back to being younger...
I didn't like wearing like girly outfits when you guys-- When I became conscious and you started trying to put me in like Casey's dresses, I did not like them. I wanted to wear-- I remember I had like one little like sporty outfit I wanted to wear all the time. It was black and white and green and mesh. Do you remember it? And it was a matching top set like top and bottom. It literally looks like a--
sport uniform but it wasn't anyway it was full mesh full mesh matching tops and bottom anyway i remember that do you know what i'm talking about i loved that outfit i wanted to wear it all the time yep anyway i went to maybe i'll tell the story and dad you can interject if when when the time comes
One day we were in Florida as a family and no one wanted to go to Disney World this one day except for me and you. So I went to Disney World alone with dad. And we got on a ride where you were like driving these little cars and it started raining and
And I also actually have like tactile things too. I hate being sticky and I hate being like wet. Like when I was little especially, I hated being sticky. Like if I ate an ice cream cone and my hand got sticky, it like made me feel like sick. Same with like if my clothes got wet. So anyway, we get on this ride. I think I was in jeans. We're driving this car. It starts raining and
soaking wet. I get soaking wet. And then I kept crying to dad because we were trying to walk around Disney World and I was crying because I was like, I'm so uncomfortable. And he's like, let's go into the store. We'll buy you a new outfit. Just buy you a little outfit, like a little set. So we go in there. I didn't like any of the outfits because they were all girly, by the way, for the girls. They were all really girly little outfits. But there was this one little outfit that was like a Minnie Mouse outfit
cheerleading outfit, but it had shorts. So it was shorts and a t-shirt, but it was Minnie Mouse on it. And she was like a cheerleader. And I wanted that one, but then I was like, no, I can't get that one. And dad was like, well, why? Why can't you get that one? And I was like, well, Casey's going to make fun of me because it's girly.
And he was like, no, it's fine. I'm like 10 probably or eight, nine, getting a little more conscious, right? Anyway, dad's like, she's not going to make fun of you. It's so, let's buy it. It's cute. You'll like it. You'll wear it. So anyway, put it on. I wear it all day feeling great, happy, good about myself. We walk in the door of the condo. Casey looks at me and goes,
oh you got a little mini mouse cheerleader out and I thought dad I wanted to kill myself I wanted to die I was like oh knew it and dad was like could see on his face because he gassed me up so hard too he's like she's not gonna she won't it looked like he wanted to kill Casey like he's like you're kidding me anyway I never wore it again moving along wow okay
sex can we talk about sex for one second because it's a podcast about queer relationships and sex and I want to highlight in all the things you guys did as parents something you did I think really well was there was not a lot of shame around sex and especially compared to my Texas counterparts of like friends I didn't feel like sex was like the scariest worst like
thing in the world. So what made you guys make it that way? Like, I think for me, I just wanted to girls to know that you could respect yourself and you can say yes or no, if you felt like that was appropriate, like you, well, I didn't know you were gay at the time, but I was just, you know, what, you know, if, if guys tried to approach you and make you feel like you should do something, it's like,
You don't have to do anything that you don't feel comfortable with. If you feel like you should not let them let that happen, you should say that. You should be able to stand up for yourself. In general, the way you guys talked about sex in our house was...
was less shameful than my friends. Yeah, it's not to be shamed of. We're not like from that religious perspective of like you have to wait till you're married and all that. That was the culture where we grew up in Texas is very, very...
Like abstinence. I don't think I ever grew up thinking one time before I knew I was gay or straight that I would wait to get married to have sex. I'm grateful for how I grew up and the way you guys talked about sex because it just made sex normal. It's not that we talked about sex often. It's not like we're like talking about it. But it's also exactly why I think I'm able to have this podcast and talk about queer sex
And the same way, because my point of talking about it is not to be sexual. It's not to be like, oh, let's make something like scandalous and talk about something sexually. It's just like people have sex. It's good and healthy and happy and right to just acknowledge it versus a lot of the culture in Dallas being like, don't even fucking talk about it. Like don't even, it's not, no one's doing that.
Well, I mean, I don't know how to respond because I don't remember, you know, being like conscious of it being an issue or, you know, I mean, so I guess that's why, right? Part of it is it just wasn't a lot of, that I recall, stress or pressure or judgment, you know, surrounding that subject. I mean, it wasn't like we never talked about it, it never came up. It was just, it wasn't something that, you know,
i we look when i hear this a lot about dallas i hear from your sister i hear from sometimes from listening to your podcast and people you know some of the i'll read some of the stuff they ask and stuff you didn't grow up in a bible belt baptist family and maybe that's why part of that's there i mean
Some of the churches, I am a man of faith. I'm a Christian. I don't think, I never grew up as a Christian who was all rule-based. We've talked about this before. And you get that with the Baptist churches. You get it with other churches too. They're very legalistic. Let's use that. Maybe it's a better way of saying it. Churches that are very legalistic, there's like you do, you don't. You must, you mustn't, right? There are these rules, right?
And if you don't follow the rules, you're in trouble. Well, my take on Christianity is once you're a Christian, once you're really in that world, right? You accepted Christ, whatever, as your Savior, however people want to say it, that's how I say it, then you want to do better, right? It's not like you're doing better to make him happy. You're trying now to do things right.
Because that's the right thing to do. Looking back, were there signs that I was gay to you guys? If you think about it now, that you know. I mean, maybe if I think about it now, but like at the time, it just never occurred to me that that was a possibility. There really wasn't any specific indication to me that you might be thinking that. But like, I never had any representation for that. Like, there was never anybody that...
You didn't know it was a possibility. What about you? No. The only thing that I, looking back, was I'm reflecting back, and I don't remember what year it was, you know, like you were maybe a junior in high school, senior in high school, maybe somewhere in that space. You know, you were troubled. Like you weren't as, you were less around people.
and around people, at least when I was there, not just you and me, but if there were other people too, you just, you seem to be troubled. And then whenever you did come out, that's, I've said this before, but then that was my Shannon came back. Like you were happier. You were less guarded. You were less stressed. You were less,
I don't know. True. Troubled. Anxiety. I'm going to ask more questions about that too. So good. If you've been following me for a long time or if you've watched the podcast, then you would have, you know that I was outed by the first girl I ever liked. Her parents outed me to my parents.
I've told the story like many, many times from my own perspective, but you've never heard it from their perspective. So I'm glad they're on the podcast today. I'm going to tell it quickly from my perspective, just in case you're not ever hearing this before. Basically, I loved a girl in high school. Her parents put a baby monitor in her room, overheard that we liked each other, called my parents.
And then we're like, they can't be friends anymore. Even when all of this was happening, I was not necessarily in the know of what the conversations were between the parents because whenever it got brought up to me, I was not obviously inquisitive about it. I was just being like, I don't know. Exactly. So it wasn't something I was like trying to ask what they were saying.
So some of this I don't even know. Mom was saying something about it earlier and I didn't know. What was your experience when I was outed by the first girl I loved? So basically what happened was her mother called me and said, we need to have a meeting. We overheard them talking about kissing or something like that.
And so I was just like, I don't know anything about this. It's like that never, you know, nothing ever came up about that. So yeah, if you want to meet, we can talk about it and see what you know about that. I don't know anything about it. And so she wanted to have a meeting between her husband and me and your dad and me. And so we met at a cafe. And she told me that
She overheard a conversation about that. And I was just like, honestly, I don't know anything about that. I haven't heard anything about that. We'll just have to see how this plays out. I don't know. I have no idea. That was what I thought at the time. And what was their overall vibe about it? I mean, they were up in arms about it. Like, this was a scandal and a horrible thing and this can't happen and whatever.
I was kind of surprised by how appalled they were by it. And I was just like, well, I don't know. We'll see, you know. Maybe there's something to this and maybe there's not. My thinking throughout the whole thing was, ain't nothing I can do about it. If my child is gay, they're going to be gay. Nothing I can do is going to make it change.
And the same thing if somebody come and said, I don't want her dating my son because she's not good enough or something along those lines. They're going to do what they're going to do. They're going to work a way around that. You know, that's how I sort of think. And I wasn't thinking you were gay, didn't know if you were gay or not, but...
If you were going to be gay, you were going to be gay, right? So being like a hard-ass gentleman at this is not, I couldn't do it. Yeah. Well, clearly, I'm gay. It happened. But I felt like dad was just like, oh, you know, maybe they're just experimenting. You don't know. Like, they're just, maybe they're just hanging out.
And I was like, yeah, maybe that's possible, but maybe she is gay. But, you know, if she's gay, she's gay. It's like, that's just how it is. It's going to be okay. We'll figure it out. Do you feel like you guys were aligned in that moment of like, okay, well, if she's gay, we'll deal with this together? Yeah. Yeah. That's like never a negative issue in that regard. It was just, you know. You didn't, it was going to be okay no matter what? A little bit. Yeah.
You have to talk. It's a podcast. Sorry. She's crying. She's crying again. Did you feel a difference in me between the time that her parents outed me and I came out myself? Yes, yes, for sure. I felt like you were panicked when we asked you about it. Like, so Shannon, do you think it could be gay? And you're just like clammed up and said nothing. You're just like.
I think you're in a panic mode like oh my gosh they're gonna know this about me or something and I think it just took you some time to really figure it out and own it and be like yeah that's that is what it is and that's who I am and once once you did that then you seemed more at peace with that. When you came out it was like really good it made me happy to see you happier
Because, you know, there were times when you were a kid growing up that we lived in Texas, then we went to Ohio, we came back to Texas. There were times where, and I did this with my brothers too, where I didn't want them to hang out with me. We were in Ohio, Casey didn't want you hanging around with her. And you became sort of my little buddy because you didn't have anybody to hang out with except for me, poor kid. Yeah.
But, I mean, you were like fun. And I'm not just using that. I'm using that as an example. But somewhere in there when you started to, you know, deal with this through puberty or afterwards and you kept it to yourself and you've talked about this in various places where, you know, you didn't want to be gay, you picked OU because Oklahoma was, you know,
you know, what's the word I'm looking for? Conservative. You wanted to be in a sorority that was conservative. So you were in some way fighting this or whatever you were doing. I don't want to speak for you, but there was something going on because you weren't the same little Shannon. And sometimes I would think, well, it's just normal. You know, it's just part of growing up. But once you came out and you started to become, then you started to become my little Shannon again. It was better.
Because you were happier. How have you guys seen me change in the last 10 years since I came out? I mean just being much more comfortable being yourself. But I think that happens with everybody in your situation. Like it's such a struggle to like own that and then once you do it's like you can be yourself. Dad, have you seen me change in the last 10 years?
Yeah, yeah. But let me say this. When you guys were little, you and Casey both, I would pray that you'd live long, healthy lives. I used to have this little routine I'd go through, you know, long, healthy lives, and you'd grow up and be good people, and that you would help people, that you'd be in some kind of a career where you would be helping others.
and doggone it one of you becomes a therapist and the other becomes you right i mean well yeah you i mean you've helped a lot of people and we were in ireland i've told this story to a number of friends and uh one of the waiters who's waiting on us a female woman waiter recognized you and she talked about her girlfriend who was over at the bar and she was embarrassed and she was excited she wanted to meet you but she was too embarrassed to do it
So I went over to her and I said, hey, I'm Shannon's dad. Shannon wants to meet you. And that girl came over and she was so excited. I've seen that happen in Pittsburgh. Not that exact story, but similar stories. And now here we are in Vienna. I was going to say Vienna. In Venice. And we go to pay the check. We're leaving and the waiter comes over and says, hey, this gal paid your, this woman paid your tab. And he gave you a note that she had written.
where she talked about how much you've helped her. You see that in all, so many comments on your, you know, various social media feeds. And I've talked to folks about this. People have brought this to me and I go, like,
She seems so genuine. She seems to be so legit. And I've seen you answer questions, and the way you answer the questions is really good. Thanks for asking me that. That's a difficult thing. I understand. I've been there. It breaks my heart that you have to be doing that too. So, yeah, you weren't doing that when you were a junior in college in front of me. No. So what I've seen is you...
and continuing to mature into a very giving, a lot of integrity there, a lot of genuine, I'm struggling for words, empathy. It's not just sympathy. It's very empathetic and truly very helpful. There are probably a few gay men too. I don't know, but there's certainly a lot of gay women who have benefited from your work
Your messaging I agree with that. I mean, I feel like you know, there's a lot of positive Attributes you can get there just naturally that you're born with but to put yourself out there. Yeah, it's vulnerable But put yourself out there for people No, and like like understand where they're coming from Good at this
Thank you guys. You guys are so sweet. I love you both. I love you. And I love you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, I love you too. What's the biggest misconception about me online? I think that people think that you're super confident and feel like you always know what's going on and how things are. But I think inside you're always kind of anxious and want to do good stuff and are just always really worried about
how people will receive you. Yep. Okay. Yeah, but I, I'm just pretty open about that stuff too. I know. I don't think, I'm like, do you guys, do they not believe me? Yeah. Because I say it a lot. I'm like, I am stressed. I'm stressed out. But anyway. But I think you come across as very confident.
Which you should be, you know, but I think that you're like, you like have a hard outer shell, but inside you're like a little marshmallow. It's making you want to cry again. It's true. What advice would you give to a parent of a queer kid? Okay. I just think that you should love your kid no matter what. And that no matter what your kid comes to with, you should accept and love them.
And that might take you some time to figure that out, but hopefully you'll come around to that. Perfect. Dad? I'd say the same thing. You love your child no matter what, right? It's unconditional love. Life's difficult. Life is difficult. Life is difficult for everybody no matter what. But I think that especially in the early stages of sort of, and I'm guessing, I mean, I've not lived it, but coming out as gay and then trying to
Live that live your life genuinely right as a gay person in the early stages is probably pretty hard, right? It's way harder than it maybe hopefully it gets easier as you go. So life's difficult already You've added an extra layer of difficulty just not you but life is there right as a parent don't make it any harder That's really good advice. You guys are crushing it and my last question for you as we approach Pride Month Are you proud of me? Absolutely
Of course we are. Totally. In every way. What about you? Are you gay? Anything else you guys want to say to the world? Just hang in there, people. We just love you. So sweet. Thanks for this. I mean, hopefully it helps somebody somewhere, right? No matter what. It may not get the most hits. It may not be the biggest, you know, it may not be the most popular show you do, but...
Hopefully, even if there's one person out there that helps, it's worth it. I think every time it helps at least one person. Maybe two. Thank you, guys. Love you. We survived the cruise, but they don't love each other. They still don't want to date each other. God damn it.
