The Governor Gets Real ft. New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy
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Today, I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with the governor of New Jersey, Phil Murphy. Thank you so much for just taking the time to do this. Thank you for having me, Savannah. Of course, of course. So obviously with my parents' situation, I've taken this opportunity to educate myself on really just...

our laws and the prison system as a whole and you stuck out to me because of all the different bills that you've enacted and especially when it comes to prison reform and the things that you've done but before we get there let's just talk a little bit about you and what led you to politics.

First of all, it's great being with you. Yes. Welcome to Newark, New Jersey. Thank you. I dated back to when I was a little kid. I've described our family growing up, I'm the youngest of four, as middle class on a good day. My dad did not get out of high school. My mom earned a high school degree and that was it for her. She cared that the four of us got an education. He cared that we were tuned in to school.

community service, politics, current events. I did it as far back as to my dad as a little kid and lots of other heroes and mentors over the years, but that's where it began. - You spent 23 years in finance. - I did. - And you definitely did not come to politics for the money.

That's true. That is for sure. That is for sure. And so when it comes to the state of New Jersey, let's talk about the different bills that you've enacted when it comes to prison reform in our system and giving people that are in your system a second chance. Yeah, that's a big deal for us. So when we got here now almost six years ago,

New Jersey had, among other challenges, the widest white, non-white gap of persons incarcerated in America, number one. And number two, we weren't a great state for second chances. We didn't let you vote. We didn't let you expunge a low-level marijuana conviction. We didn't do a lot of things. And we were committed to growing the economy.

becoming a responsible state again. Yes. We've become very irresponsible and we were committed to addressing the inequities, not all of which are in the criminal justice system, but a lot of them are there. Yes. We've done a lot, but we're still on a journey. We're not we're not we're not where we ultimately will be or want to be. But we've come a long way. Yes. Because when you come when you speak about voting, what a lot of people don't realize is as a convicted felon, you cannot vote.

in most states and for the president of our country. And to me, that's so baffling because you can be the president if you're a convicted felon, but you cannot vote for the president. Yeah. And we saw that and said, you know what, that's not on. So if you're now on probation or parole, you can vote again. And you deserve that vote. You deserve a say in

in how your community or your county or your state is the direction it's headed. For sure. And within the state of New Jersey, you guys have different programs for people who have been through the system to kind of educate them for the outside world. Correct. Because the issue is, is within our prison system, these inmates learn a currency that

for inside the system. They're not learning a currency for when they get out. - Society, correct. - And when it comes to reentry, I feel like that's something you guys have done very well and that you continue to work on because we just don't have that. There is not a lot of that. - You said it and framed it very well.

You've got too many people who are exiting the system who just don't have the skills, the supports, the mentoring, whatever it is that they need. And we're committed to that. And by the way, there's a direct correlation between giving them those tools and a recidivism rate that is among the lowest possible.

Yes. I wish it were zero, but we are among the lowest in the nation. We're at the lowest in our state in at least a decade. Because since you have been in office, that recidivism rate has gone down. It has gone down virtually every year. The pandemic was a challenge, clearly, in many respects, including in the criminal justice system.

But we're committed to that. It's in all of our best interest to have folks who are coming out of the system, have the skills and supports they need,

to be full participants in society. And we're committed to that. Again, I wish it were at zero. I know, right? I wish we had it perfectly figured out. We don't, but we've come a long way. Yeah. And so there is a New Jersey Senator, Cory Booker, who has introduced a package of bills. It's to end the unfair and abusive labor within our prison system. And have you...

I feel like that is something you're very on par with. Yes. And when it comes to the research, out of the 1.2 million people we have incarcerated, 65% of them

are working in our prison system because of the fear of retaliation if they are not working. And they get paid 13 cents an hour. And what's so sad is you're very outspoken about the racial injustices that have happened. And obviously with the 13th Amendment, we abolish slavery except for punishment. Yeah.

Listen, first of all, I love Cory Booker. Yes. And as usual, he's standing on the right side of an issue, which in the current state, as you rightfully point out, is grossly unfair. Yeah. And so we endorse anything that gets us involved.

better treatment. Listen, if folks commit a crime and they're convicted, and they're convicted based on the facts, that's the reality. Yeah, we're not asking. We are here for law and order, but for...

Correct. Correct. Correct. And Senator Booker has stood on that side, as do we, from day one. Yes, for sure. And something that you've done in the state is there was a women's correctional facility. There still is, unfortunately. But we've, at long last, we're going to close it. And I think we put $80 or $90 million in the budget I just signed to make sure that happens ASAP. Wow.

And it's got to be, it's called the Edna Mahan Correction Facility. Okay. It's outdated. It's not at the level it needs to be. And it's only one unit, which means, as you frequently have in the criminal justice system, you have to separate...

folks who are incarcerated into different buildings, different wings. We don't have that ability. So not only is it not at the level it needs to be in terms of the humane treatment, but we also needed a facility that has multiple options. We are committed to doing that at long last. This has been building for literally decades. We're finally going to get there. Well, I just have to say thank you. My honor. Because having my mother in a facility where,

I know the downfalls and more people should stand up in this way. Yep. Um, because it's, it truly is heartbreaking to see, but especially to, as a woman, you

Absolutely. Being anyone, male or female, but as a woman, it feels amazing to have a man stand up for what is right. God bless you. I appreciate that. And again, we're on a journey. So I mentioned recidivism rates are going in the right direction. Actual crimes, particularly violent crimes, are going in the right direction.

direction. The population, the prison population in New Jersey is down dramatically and yet we're safer as a state. What would you say to the everyday person? Because since I have been speaking on this topic,

You have people that say, these people, they did what they did. They should be treated like the animals that they are. That is the number one thing that is told to me. And I just don't know how to reach the public when it comes to this issue. So one angle that I think may bear fruit. First, let's put aside humane treatment. Mm-hmm.

And regardless of what the crime is, there's a standard here. I put that aside for a moment. I think one way to get at this is to make the case that it's in our collective enlightened self-interest as citizens that we have...

programs for reentry that work, that lead to lower recidivism. Yes. In other words, training, education, healthcare, housing, whatever it might be, job opportunities, workforce development. Secondly, that we treat people humanely when they're in the system, that that's not just the right thing for them.

But it's the right thing for all of us. We have a safer society. We have a society with less of us versus them, less inequity.

Which is good for everybody. I don't buy these arguments that say just because you're doing what you're doing that this is sort of some agenda. Yeah. That's not what this is. No. This is about keeping all of us safe and secure, not just some of us. And I think that's the angle that I think could bear fruit. Again, appeal to the enlightened self-interest of all of us. Yes, without a doubt. And I think with that...

I just, it's something I've become very passionate about. Not surprisingly. And you have spoken, you've also spoken out about compassionate release and believing in that. And can you give me your viewpoint on that? Compassionate release, home confinement, maybe other forms of incarceration. Yeah. So this is somebody that we've put in place. This would apply to someone who's

near or at the end of their life. They've done a substantial amount of their time that they're deemed to not be a threat to society. Let's let that man or woman

Get released, go home, and live out the rest of their lives, which sadly in many cases is a short amount of time in dignity. Yes. Again, some folks hear that and they say, oh my gosh. The reality is the facts don't bear that out. The facts bear out that this is not just the right thing to do for that individual, but it doesn't put the rest of us in any...

Any more harm. Chances are they will not re-offend. Overwhelming chances. And, you know, I have actually seen this firsthand with where my dad is. There's an older gentleman who is now suffering from dementia. Doesn't know where he's at. Doesn't know what is happening. You know, and isn't getting the proper care. And in a situation like this, a compassionate release is...

That weighs on my heart because this man, so I look at this and I'm like, we need, this isn't a right or left issue. It is not. This is a humanity issue. It's humanity. And again, I think you have to continue to convince people. And the good news, Savannah, is the facts are on our side here. So we're not making up the facts. These are hard, hard edge, hardcore facts.

that we're not putting society at any higher level of risk. If anything, we're actually reducing that risk, whether it's compassionate release or other programs, and we're doing the right thing at the same time. For sure. And you speak about mental health, especially amongst the youth. And I was, I did an interview recently,

recently with an attorney and we were speaking about our prison population and how 30, 40 years ago you saw these mental institutions with just an outrageous amount of people that were there. And then you saw that number going down. But on that same scale, you saw our prison population increasing. You bet. And so that's...

That tells me that we are not giving proper mental health treatment to people. And instead we use prison as a way to house these individuals. You could not be more right. I just concluded recently my term as chair of the National Governors Association. When you're the chair of

You get to raise money around and develop an initiative. And mine was strengthening mental health among our youth. And we delivered a playbook on exactly how to deal with this for all American governors. But I'll give you another example of a program that we've now taken statewide. We piloted it, and it's now all over New Jersey, which I think is a national model. And it's called Arrive Together. Okay. And it goes like this.

If the dispatcher gets a call, whether it's local police, county or state, and it's a mental health related call. The old days, you'd send out a uniformed policeman in a marked car. And that would be the first impression that that individual would have. Arrive together is a simple fix, but it's an important one. That member of law enforcement is playing close. The car is unmarked.

And most importantly, riding shotgun is a mental health, trained mental health professional. The member of law enforcement and the mental health professional show up at the scene together and they make a collective decision as to who should take the lead. In most cases, in our piloting experience, it was the mental health professional. It is a game changer. Now, it's not just a game changer for the long term population.

of that individual, whether they go to prison or not. It's also a game changer because sadly you have a lot of injury and death associated with these calls if you look around the country under the sort of more traditional model. For sure, because I think when someone is in a crisis such as that and you see a police car, you see a badge, you see a gun, there is...

part of you that feels I'm in trouble. I did something wrong when a lot of these situations are out of someone's control. Correct. And by the way, uh, I'm not pointing fingers. It's happened in New Jersey. It happens. Uh, sadly it's happened frequently when there's some, some amount of violence, because as you rightfully point out, somebody's already at the edge. Yeah. You're, you're, you're,

playing very carefully to not push them over the edge. You want to bring them back. For sure. That's what we're committed to. And so have you had other governors that are hopping on board with this initiative? With this program, not yet. But in fairness to other governors, it's hot off the press. This is a new initiative. And as I mentioned, we piloted it. We wanted to make sure we had it right ourselves. For sure. And we've just gone statewide as of July 1,

of this year. So stay tuned because it's something I think that will get national attention, will have legs, and will have positive implications for other states. And when it comes to mental health amongst our youth, I have spoken very heavily about this because I have struggled myself and I've spoken about it. Our school systems

Have you thought of anything to implement when it comes to our school systems and proper mental health treatment? Yeah, we have. So money isn't everything, but putting a serious amount, putting the right resources in place is at least part of the equation. So we've put a lot of money to work in that system. Secondly, we've been in New Jersey very successful historically with

with the kids, dealing with kids who expressly exhibit mental health challenges and stress. But it's probably only about 2% of the kids in our school system. We have about 1.4 million kids in school. So we're keeping that very focused program in place, but we're

Right now, we're rolling out something else, which is casting a wider net, the Children's System of Care, it's called. This is basically putting the net out to allow us with resources, training in our educators and in-school professionals to touch every kid.

And the reason is it's been triggered by the pandemic. We knew that mental health challenges existed before the pandemic, but we now know that they're much more exacerbated since the pandemic. For sure. And that's been the trigger. And so we'll keep this very focused program, which has been very successful, but dealing with a very small minority of our kids while casting a wide net

Basically to touch all of our kids, all of our educators, make everybody aware, both as peers and as mentors and supervisors. And I think we're the one, Savannah, the one argument I can't take is someone denying that this crisis exists. Because it very much does. You bet. We could differ as to what the...

The recipe is the causes or how we're going to most effectively deal with it. That's this playbook I mentioned has got probably 35 different specific ideas in terms of what to implement. You may not like all of them. I may not like all of them, but let's acknowledge it exists, this crisis. Exactly. And then let's figure out what to do about it. For sure, because I think the issue is, is

There is a huge population that can't afford these resources. I look for myself and my two younger siblings and I spend thousands of dollars a month for therapists, for psychologists.

I am blessed and fortunate enough to be able to do that. But the everyday person may not have those resources. You've got real access issues, how insurance treats physical health versus mental health. Which is, that is a huge issue. The lack of parity. You've also got another reality. There's an enormous supply, demand, and balance. Even if you can afford the therapist, there aren't enough of them. Yeah. And very few of them take Medicaid. Yeah.

It's overwhelmingly, not entirely, but overwhelmingly a cash on the barrel industry in terms of how you pay for it. Yes.

And so those are all realities that we have to figure out a way to crack the back of. I hope this playbook will help particularly with our kids. I love that. I hope it comes to the state of Tennessee. I would. Because it is very much needed. I'll make sure you get a copy. Please do. Please do. Because something you said, which when I was doing my research that you said years ago that I loved, you said that our legacy will be measured here.

by how well we set the table for tomorrow, by how deeply today's youth understand. That's still what I believe with all my heart. In other words, when you're in government and public service, you have to deal with the here and now. You've got to get a budget passed, which we recently did, or if you've got a natural disaster, you've got to deal with that. We tragically lost two Newark firefighters a short while ago battling a blaze at our port. So there's the here and now.

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Honeylove.com backslash unlocked. Support our show and check them out at Honeylove.com forward slash unlocked. You are a very educated man and you are sitting here having a conversation with a 25 year old.

that is wanting to know better so that I can do better. And I think that's where a lot of politicians go wrong is I'm so easily written off because I'm young and I may not be as educated when in reality change starts

With my demographic. You bet. It starts with the Gen Z population. And that's how we reach people because times are changing. You betcha. First of all, I give you enormous credit for putting yourself up on the high wire without a net and going into areas that you admittedly have not had experience in. But secondly, it's a real stark...

Oh my God moment about who shows up to vote. And this is a message I want to, for everybody out there who's watching us, vote. Elections have consequences and it's very interesting. People my age vote at a much higher rate than people your age. And yet what's at stake matters a whole lot more for you than it does for me. It does. And that's the biggest thing is I hear, well,

way too often. And I just had a conversation with someone the other day and they were like, oh yeah, I'm not voting. It's not going to make a difference. Boy, that could not be more wrong. Whether you agree with them or not, I know which camp I'm in. You look at Supreme Court decisions that you don't agree with. Yeah. Or maybe you do agree with. The fact of the matter is it's the starkest reminder I can think of

that elections have consequences. Those justices are appointed by the winner of the presidential election. Folks need to, I'm desperate for young people. We've done a decent job in Jersey. We're better than the average state in terms of youth voter turnout, but not anywhere near where we need to be. And why do you think that is? I think there's a lot of the, in your generation,

I say your gender. I'm making myself sound like a geriatric here. I got to take that off. I mean... I think folks don't... It's too abstract for them. Yep. They don't... There's not a good enough... And maybe that's our fault. Maybe it's society's fault. But...

Too often voting and elections are abstract. They're distant. I think anything we can do to remind folks of the immediacy and the stakes that are involved in an election, whether it's a Supreme Court justice, whether it's minimum wage,

Criminal justice reform for our conversation. Treatment of the mental health challenges. Whatever it might be, folks in seats like mine have a big impact on that. And we just got to make sure more young people get that. Well, and that's kind of what I've said is I had...

No knowledge of our justice system. I didn't, why should I care? It didn't affect me at that time. And I have said publicly, don't be me. Don't just care about something because it affects you. Care about something because it affects other people too. And I've had to educate myself. And I think that's the issue is my generation. We've done a lot of things right. We've, when it comes to mental health, we have made it not so difficult

You know, so much of a stigma around it. De-stigmatizing. Yes, we have de- Not entirely, but to a great degree. Yes, we have helped people to realize it's okay to not be okay. You don't have to be shameful about it. But one thing we haven't done is,

is what you're saying, is showing up to vote. You bet. And educating ourselves, getting off of TikTok, Instagram, all of these social media platforms, and truly educating ourself on what's going on in our world. I love it. Yeah, that really is a big, big thing. And so, obviously,

You are in a place of power. You are the governor of New Jersey. What advice do you have for governors and policymakers that are interested in criminal justice reform, but maybe are too scared to step forward? Maybe they are a Republican because maybe for decades, Republicans...

have not been for criminal justice reform. But maybe I think we're in a new era to where we have Republicans who want to stand for it, but maybe just feel like they can't. In fact, you saw some meaningful progress in the Trump administration, which is probably something that folks out there aren't expecting me to say. I know, right? But it's a fact. And I think this should transcend political party affiliation.

And I think it's the advice I'd have, and again, I'm not trying to pat ourselves on the back. I think we've done a good job, we've done what we said we would do, but we still have a long way to go. I wanna make sure I say that. - For sure. - But I think the advice I would give would be the discussion that you and I had earlier, that convincing other leaders at all levels of government that it's in our collective enlightened self-interest

to pursue criminal justice reform. It's not just the right thing for those individuals. That young black guy who's never been able to get a proper education or a job because he had some low-level marijuana conviction, is it good for that guy? You betcha. It's game-changing to expunge that to give him a new lease on life.

But the other point, the sort of more universal point, it's good for everybody. It strengthens your society. And that's the message I would give. I love that. And one thing that you did do is you got rid of mandatory minimums, correct? Correct. And so, and that is, for people that don't understand that, that is a huge ordeal because that doesn't, you could have been a,

18-year-old kid who got dealt... Wrong place, wrong time, right? Wrong place, wrong time. Got dealt a really crappy hand of cards. And that's... People don't get how...

mandatory minimums, how bad they really can be. You bet. And this gives the judge in question, we pride ourselves on the strength of our judiciary in New Jersey, as a lot of states do, and we certainly do. But it gives latitude to take into account what the circumstances are. It's smart. It's pragmatic. It's the right thing to do. And by the way, maybe

the circumstances are really bad and that individual is guilty as charged, but the judge then has the ability to say, okay, well, I'm gonna, the sentence is gonna be more. But more often than not, it gives them the latitude that I think is appropriate. And folks out there watching this may say, okay, what's it done to recidivism? What's it done to crime rates, violent crime rates?

And again, the pandemic threw a monkey wrench into this, as it were. It's so hard to get accurate data. But if you look at the trend lines, prison population, recidivism, violent crimes. Again, we're not at zero. I wish we were. But the progress is in the direction that we want it to be. And this has been a contributor to that. Well, I mean, I have done tons of research on different cases to where judges have actually said that

I do not want to sentence you to this, but I have no other choice. I have no choice. Which is so sad. So thank God we're able to not have that as a reality any longer in New Jersey. For sure. I mean, in New Jersey. So out of my own curiosity, because I know in the state of Illinois, I mean, you cannot, as a convicted felon,

The laws are just insane. I mean, you cannot be an architect. You can't be, you can't work at a pet store. You can't be a personal trainer. You basically can't do anything. You can't be a roofer. And so how do we get past that? Because how are people to do better if they can't by law do better?

And there's no one magic wand, but I think we can wave a number of magic wands at this, a collection of them, and get to a better place. Make sure that person, as they're coming out, is prepared, as we discussed earlier, has workforce development. I'll give you a great example. Our director of corrections and my wife are working on getting currently incarcerated individuals trained up in the green economy.

Because we're going to have a huge amount of jobs available in the green economy that these folks will men and women will come out with real life training, which is going to be a game changer for them in particular. But I think it's things like ban the box, which we've had in New Jersey during my time with banned the box in terms of when I say ban the box where you don't have to

this question doesn't get asked, are you convicted of this or that? You couldn't, you used to be able to not rent an apartment. We put that behind us. Well, Tennessee is one, Tennessee is in the top five

states that are harshest on convicted felons. I mean, you can't be a hairdresser in the state of Tennessee. That's tough stuff. Which is so tough because how are we to give these people a second chance if we limit them from almost every job that they could possibly do? It's just not the right...

I know folks look at that and they think, well, that's law and order. You know, with all due respect, actually, it is like gun safety laws. And I don't want to get on a soapbox on that. But the fact is, this is proven. The fewer guns around the street, particularly illegal ones, the less violent crime you have. And in this case, we got to accept the fact that if you give people a new lease on life and you do it the right way, that's better for them, but it's better for everybody. I'll give you an example. The best example for us, I think,

I think we've had 360,000 marijuana expungements in New Jersey. That alone has given people... That's not just a ban the box, don't ask the question. Your record is clean, which has been a game changer. Yeah, for sure. Because my thing is, is how are we... And I think it's so hard because every state is different. So...

marijuana is legal in some states, not legal in other states, but there are states to where it's legal and people are still sitting in prison for marijuana convictions. Yeah, I got behind legalizing adult use cannabis here. Okay. Because

solely because of social justice. Is it good for the economy? Will it create jobs? Will it be a nice pizzazz factor for folks in your generation? Yeah, that's all well and good, but it's not good enough. It's necessary, but not sufficient. And I also felt strongly, and I was joined by some great leadership in our legislature,

that whatever the new state of adult use cannabis going forward was going to look like, we had to mirror that as we looked back.

That we couldn't have what you've just suggested. Yeah. Someone goes to prison on Friday for something that the next Monday morning is legal. We can't have that, which is why we had to have that symmetric approach. It has to be retroactive. It absolutely has to be. And, you know, I find it interesting because there is some sentencing reform coming down the pipeline in the next few months. And, yeah.

Even with that sentencing reform, it has to be retroactive. Because how are we going to make something okay today but not make it right for the past? That's the problem. Yeah. And so we said...

in New Jersey, we can't legalize going forward unless we have look back provisions that mirror that future. And we've been able to do that. And so you do, you have four children, correct? I do. So when you... Including a 25 year old, I might add. Really? Yes. Oh,

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sitting in your office and you're coming up with these bills, how much of an influence do your children have in that? - A big influence. I mean, it depends on the bill, obviously, but-- - Is there a certain bill that they have influenced more than maybe another?

Well, they were pretty strong advocates of legalizing adult use cannabis. I'll leave aside their potential personal motivations. But I think they felt strongly in the bigger social justice picture. They saw that.

as well pretty clearly. That's one that I would put high on the list. And they've been, listen, it's a team sport for us. My wife and I and our four kids, we're in this, if you're one of you in, you're all in. Oh, you're all, it's a group effort. It's a team sport. It is a family effort. No question about it.

And then there was one other thing that obviously I as a woman wanted to speak about because it was your bill A3648 where you are drastically reforming the civil statute of limitations for survivors of sexual assault. Yeah. And it was actually...

It was crazy because I was not aware of this. And I was speaking to my mom last night. She called me. And, you know, I got that 15 minutes to talk to her. And she knew I was doing this interview. And she goes, you do know that he came up with this idea.

bill that reformed that. And I educated myself and I think that is the most amazing thing. So can you tell me kind of what inspired that? First of all, thank your mom for me. And your mom and dad are in my prayers. Thank you. Well, the real inspiration going way back when is my wife was assaulted when she was in college long before I met her.

So this is live with her. Thank God she's okay. But the person who assaulted her was not, justice was not done. In her case, that was in the Commonwealth of Virginia. So I'd say I'd take this back as far as when my now wife first told me about her experience. Yeah.

That was kind of your way of making her wrong as right as you possibly could. I guess that's a good way to put it. I hadn't thought of it that way. It was a different state, a different time. But the fact of the matter is it was the right thing to do. And it gets back to the sort of broader theme that you and I have talked

been discussing here and that is addressing inequities. Yeah. A lot of them, maybe most of them are across racial lines, but there are big gender inequities still with us. I need not tell you that. And this is another piece to that

broader tapestry. And, you know, again, we're not perfect. Yeah. It's a step in the right direction. And so can you tell me how it broadened the Statue of Limitations from previous, how it previously was to now under your administration? Yeah. You've got a lot more time to actually look

Look at the entirety of the Me Too experience, which I think has been fascinating. And we've seen some of it right here in New Jersey. But look at folks. There's a case unfolding right now in London. And again, I'm not privy to the facts. But it's striking to me that there continue to be... We saw this with the Bill Cosby situation. You saw it with other of the Hollywood situations where...

A woman will come out many years after the incident and say, you know what? I saw so-and-so come out and tell her story. And I was suffering in silence. I was not ever going to tell my story. But I thought, you know what? She's shown that courage. I now need to stand up and stand with her. And that's so you've got now very simply a longer runway in which to raise that hand and say, you know what?

This is wrong. I was a victim of this. That's amazing. So it's somewhat in sync with that notion that it might have taken a long time for you to get there, but you have every right still to raise your hand and say, this happened to me. Yeah. More states should jump on board with that. And even, you know, I say from a woman's perspective, but there are men that I know that this has happened to. And

And, you know, men are just different. Sometimes it does take a little longer to come to terms with it of what happened to come forward. And there's a man that I know that came forward about it as an adult. It happened to him as a child, but came forward as an adult. And because he came forward, over 30 to 50 other men came forward as well. Wow. With the same perpetrator? Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. And that...

This bill speaks to just that. And you're absolutely right. We speak about this far more in terms of women who are victims, which we should. Yeah. But we have to remember that... That men are as well. Everybody's...

In this. That's amazing. Well, I just have to thank you because you are really paving the way. And too, I will say, you know, I grew up in the South. So very right wing area that I grew up in. But I am learning the older I get that it's not right. It's not left. That, like I said, it's a humanity issue. And you can...

I think where we go wrong, especially with my generation, if you don't believe what I believe, I'm removing myself. Yeah. And I think that's where we go wrong. We can't let that happen. You have to sit and have a conversation and...

learn new things and challenge yourself. I'll give you a commercial for, not for me, but for a friend of mine. I mentioned I just recently gave up as chair of the, finished my term as chair of the National Government Association. National Government Association is a bipartisan group. So it goes Democratic leader to Republican leader. So my successor is Republican governor, Spencer Cox of Utah. He and his wife, Abby, are dear friends and he's a great

They're great people. His, and I mentioned my initiative was strengthening mental health among youth. You know what his is? Let's disagree better.

I love that. Isn't that great? That is amazing. Let's disagree better. That is amazing. You may not agree with me and I may not agree with you, but let's figure out a civil way to talk this through. Exactly. Isn't that great? I love that. So before we wrap up, what's one piece of advice you could give to my generation? People...

you know, people who can vote that maybe aren't voting that on how to educate themselves a little better. Vote, vote, vote, vote. We've got a, New Jersey has got a course now on civic, basically civics. And I think this whole notion of

Let's get in our room together. Let's not prejudge ourselves or the other individuals who we're dealing with.

Listen more, listen better. I like this notion of disagree better. Yes. But get in the game. There's too much at stake. Again, for folks in my, I'm 66 this summer. I hope I've got many more runs around the track. Yeah. But I know somebody in your generation has probably got, with science and healthcare going the way it's going, you probably have 80 to 100 years in front of you. Yeah. Yeah.

So an election next year for president is going to have a lot, very simple math, a lot more of throw weight in your life than it will in my life. Yes. So get engaged. Not to you. I mean to your generation. Get engaged. Be willing to listen to people. Understand the issues just like you're doing. Listen to understand, not respond. Listen to understand and vote. I love that. Well, thank you for taking the time out of your day. And it was such an honor. And pleasure.

Likewise, Savannah. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course. Globally, humans are facing massive problems that are widely ignored by governments and the media. Like personal space invaders. I've had it with these couples that sit on the same side of the booth. Yak mouths. Stupid stick figure bumper stickers.

See you next Tuesday.