Debates, Swing States, and Third Parties
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Hi, I'm David Plouffe. And I'm Kellyanne Conway. And you're listening to the Campaign Managers Podcast. Right here on Podcast One. Podcast One.

Welcome to the Campaign Managers Podcast with me, David Plouffe. And me, Kellyanne Conway. I'll start. For those of you that may not know me, my name is David Plouffe, and I've spent a lot more time than I'd care to admit in Democratic politics. I'm a

Started out as a field organizer, which means out knocking on doors and recruiting volunteers and managed some House races and Senate races, worked on Capitol Hill for the Democratic leader. And eventually, one of my projects was to help a young state senator named Barack Obama get elected to the U.S. Senate.

back in 04, and he decided to run for president in 07 and 08. And that fascinating race was really kind of the joy of my life in terms of politics. We won, I think, an insurgent outsider's victory. I went to the White House and had a variety of official roles, but also helped shepherd him to his reelection in 2012. And I love presidential races because they're all about the chess match of the states and the electoral colleges and

the candidate mistakes and what your opponent does. And we always forget sometimes in politics, yes, what you do is important, but what your opponent does is equally important. You're not shooting free throws. You're driving through a very crowded lane to try and make a contested basket. So I'm thrilled to be here and turn it over to my partner in this podcast, Kellyanne Conway. Thank you, David. I'm Kellyanne Conway. I too got my start

in Washington, D.C. through grassroots politics. I came to Washington at the age of 18 to go to college and then law school, and in between took a number of internships and

low wage jobs to really try to understand politics from the bottom up, what's motivating people, what their aspirations, frustrations, expectations, and advice are to those who represent them. I was very fortunate at a young age to take a job with Dick Werthlin. He was Ronald Reagan's pollster and to learn at a very young age how to do this craft of polling.

Decades later, as a pollster, focus group moderator, president of my own company, The Polling Company, Woman Trend, Donald Trump tapped me to be his campaign manager in 2016. He was behind in the polls by double digits, particularly among women against Hillary Clinton, who was on the precipice of being the first female president of the United States. And like President Obama and David Bluff,

Eight years before us, an insurgent outsider campaign was victorious and it changed the arc of governance and American politics. Really shook it to its core. An unpredicted come from behind campaign.

election victory in 2016. That was followed by four years of my role as senior counselor to President Trump in the West Wing of the White House, where I saw the needs of Americans up close and personal, had a policy role. He liked me as a communicator as well, so I did that as well. But I will tell you, if anybody ever has a chance to

to work in public service, I highly recommend it even for a portion of your career. I'm also mom to four amazing teenagers and have a new company where I do polling focus groups, great podcasts like this with David Plouffe, Fox News contributor, and finally, media training for corporate and political America. And so I think a lot of people have probably asked both of us, why are we doing this podcast?

I think we live in a world where, you know, the two sides really don't talk very much and most people get their information from

the ideology or the source that they most align with. As Kellyanne mentioned, she's a contributor for Fox. I'm a contributor with MSNBC. I had a podcast the last two election cycles, which I really enjoyed. And as I thought about what I wanted to do this election, did I want to do a podcast? How do I think about my own processing of the election and learning things I may not know? And what do I think the audience is missing? I really thought that people would benefit

from hearing from people from not just both parties, but people who've led presidential races.

I understand, I think, the Democratic coalition very well. Someone like Kellyanne understands the Trump coalition, the Republican coalition very well. How you think about winning the presidency as a Democrat or Republican, yes, there's some similarities. There's lots of differences. And so Kellyanne and I will get into it. We don't agree about a lot of issues. She's got strong feelings about Joe Biden. I've got strong feelings about Donald Trump. And we'll do plenty of that.

But I think we're also hopefully, for those of you listening, you know, things like early vote, the electoral college, where you send a presidential candidate, how you use a vice presidential candidate, how you prepare and think about the presidential debates. All the things that are the mechanics of a presidential race that Kellyanne and I have both led those efforts and I think have a deep understanding also of the electorate.

The electorate is not static. As we see in this election, we're starting to see some potentially big changes in how voters behave, at least in the presidential race, if not across the board in other races. And so I think that there's value in two people who've led presidential races and

for different parties, for very different candidates talking about this presidential race and what's going on. And I think Kellyanne and I are both, yes, we're partisans, but we're practitioners, we're faithful to data. And so I think that this was missing in the landscape. And certainly something I'm excited about is every week talking about this presidential election with somebody else who's led a successful presidential race, but also understands Donald Trump, understands his world, understands the MAGA coalition.

So I think I'll have a better understanding of this race traveling this road. This podcast is important piece of the conversation because David and I are probably two handfuls of people in this country right now, whoever successfully ran and managed a presidential campaign to victory. And we did so with two very different men, but very similar paths to the presidency in that direction.

Both Barack Obama in 2008 and Donald Trump in 2016 were the insurgent candidates. They did not represent the establishment candidates of their two parties. And they also represented America having finally...

made good on their promise to vote for an outsider, to not stick with the status quo. We've heard voters for decades say, I want someone with a ton of experience who hasn't been in politics very long or ever. And you're thinking, well, who could that be? But in 2008, followed by 2016, Americans took a chance on someone who was familiar to them in some ways, but not familiar to them as a presidential candidate. My role and my goal are the same, to help educate and equip each of us

to be smarter consumers of the news, and just more earnest onlookers to our great democracy as we have an incredibly consequential election in 2024. In this country, our presidential elections are not decided by millions of votes across the nation. They are decided by thousands of votes across a handful of states. In fact, it boils down to 19 to 22 counties this time in those six or seven swing states.

And so in thinking that way, it's important to say that the presidential contest is about the map and the math. Politics is not about chemistry and it's not about biology. It's about math and science. You need more electoral votes than the other person. Well, Kellyanne, there's so much to dig into. But as you said, at the end of the day, political elections in America are about math. Any presidential election is about the math of the electoral college.

So I think it would be right to start this podcast with sort of our first deep dive on that. So the New York Times, Siena had some polls recently. They always get a lot of attention because they are the most exhaustive battleground state polls. They looked at six states, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. They did not pull North Carolina. And I think we should talk about that. I still think that should be in the conversation.

But those polls are getting a lot of attention for good reason. And Kelly, and you're the pollster, so I'm going to turn it over to you quickly. This poll does capture, I think, where the race stands, which is Trump has an advantage right now. There's still a pathway for Biden to win. But what it did show is Trump doing better in most states with non-college educated black and brown men in particular.

showed Trump doing better with younger voters than he did in 2016 by some margin, showed Biden really holding on to his support levels with older white voters, which is one of the reasons that his position in Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania is stronger than no Sunbelt's doubts, where in Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, Trump in these polls all had a big lead. So, you know, as I think about this, I think, Kelly, and I think you probably agree, there was an overreaction to this

as if somehow the race is baked. And you and I have been involved both as observers and practitioners long enough to know I've certainly been involved with races that experts thought was a sure thing victory that I lost. And I've also, you know, been able to win races that look like they had very slim odds. And we know that we have two candidates here

that are not very popular. You know, Biden's approval rating is not strong. There's got a lot of voters out there that actually are super bummed that this is their choice. So I think the thing I'm confident of that won't change between now and Election Day is this race will be decided.

by voters that are kind of holding their nose. Some are going to choose between Trump and Biden, even though that's not a choice they want. So this is a really complicated election. And I don't see that dynamic changing. I don't think Donald Trump's going to get to net favorable rating. And Joe Biden probably won't either. This race is still very fluid.

There's a pathway for Biden to win, but Trump leads right now. And the biggest question I have is some of this. I'll just use Nevada as a example and then turn it over to you, Kelly. So Nevada is a battleground state. The Republicans have not won it since 04.

It was the only presidential state in 20 battleground state that moved more to the right compared to 16 than 20. Every other battleground state moved more blue. So, you know, even prior to this election, you saw signs that is getting more competitive. And I think the number one reason, quite frankly, I mean, Donald Trump does has his name on the building there. So people have reminded him a lot, but is blue.

Nevada of the battleground states has the highest percentage of non-college educated voters. It's almost 70%. And Trump is showing additional strength with non-college educated voters, particularly non-college educated voters of color. Now, if that is going to continue, that's going to have less impact, though some in Wisconsin and Michigan, a little bit more in Pennsylvania. But across Arizona and Nevada and Georgia, where you have so many black and brown voters,

You know, that could be decisive. And so that's the thing I'm going to be paying most attention to in the weeks and months to come is is something fundamental happening there. And of course, what's interesting is we didn't see a similar dynamic for Republican Senate candidates. They were not enjoying the same bump Trump got. And so we also have to watch that. Is it because those races have not been fully formed or is this really unique to Trump and Biden?

Let's stick with the electoral map. There are many different pathways to 270 for President Trump. And I think that President Biden's path is really to protect what he won in 2020, albeit through a very delicately, tenuously scaffolded together coalition and by very small margins in three states. Joe Biden, 44,000 vote difference in Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona. Four years before that, Donald Trump wins 2020.

Wisconsin, the one that those two have in common, Michigan and Pennsylvania by 77,000 votes. So to my point, this is going to come down to 19 to 22 counties in six or seven swing states. That's why these national polls are good, David, to really set the mood or to give us an overall feeling about approval ratings or favorability or how people think of the top issues to them when they cast their votes.

but it's all based on state polls. When I became campaign manager for President Trump in 2016, we never again conducted a national poll. It would have been a complete waste of money, but it allowed us to focus more on those swing states and to expand our map. We also contracted our map. When I took over as campaign manager, our path to 270 was to protect what I called the core four, Florida, North Carolina, Iowa, Ohio, and add to that Nevada, New Hampshire,

And then Maine too for one electoral vote. There are two states in our country, Nebraska and Maine, that currently split the congressional district votes so you can win one and not the other. That may change between now and the fall, but that's important when you're doing every inch and foot in front of you to get to 270.

If President Trump gets Georgia and North Carolina back, he's at 251 and then he needs 19 to get to 270. He can do that with just Pennsylvania. He can do that with a combination of Michigan and Nevada, Michigan and Arizona, Arizona and Wisconsin. So there are different ways to 270 just to level set. Also, there were states...

that Obama-Biden carried twice in 2008 and 2012 that are no longer competitive. Florida with its 30 electoral votes, Ohio with its 17 electoral votes, Iowa with its six electoral votes. And we can quibble about North Carolina. I think it's still in the swing state category. Hot governors race there this year too, and these down ballot races do matter. North Carolina, 16 electoral votes. But again, if Trump wins back those two states in the South,

wins North Carolina like he did in the last few times and gets Georgia back. Then he has 19 electoral votes to go. But there are new entrants to the electoral map that I'm not happy about. Arizona and Georgia, chief among them. They were not competitive previously and they slipped away in 2020. So Trump, I think, is doing very well in these New York Times polls. Let me say, the New York Times, Siena, swing state polls,

that were recently taken created complete seismic shifts and shockwaves through the political and media chattering class. Why? They should have because they unmistakably show at this stage in the race in mid-May of 2024, Donald Trump is leading Joe Biden and in some places significantly in these six swing states with the exception of Wisconsin where Biden was leading 47-45. But I think more importantly, David, in the New York Times-Santa poll were the non-ballot questions.

where the question's asking, do you think the system needs to be torn down entirely? 14%. Have major changes? 55%. Minor changes? 27%. No changes at all? 2%. Well, who do you think would bring more change? Trump won that hands down. 25%, he'll tear it all down. 45% major changes, 23% minor changes, 4% no changes.

Contrast that to Joe Biden, where 71% of those surveyed by New York Times-Siena said that Joe Biden would either do minor changes or no changes at all. And so when the people are saying, I want major changes or fundamental overhaul, and they see in one presidential candidate the fulfillment of that and in another the non-fulfillment, all

Also, in the New York Times' Sienna poll hasn't gotten much coverage. I thought one of the most telling data points is the one that 32% of those surveyed said,

that they're not really clear what President Biden's plan is. You simply can't win as an incumbent president if people don't know what your policies are and draw a straight line between them and how it's made your life better, more affordable, more secure, so that your vote feels earned, that you feel, you know what, I got to give this guy and his administration four more years.

When you look at the swing state polls put forth by the New York Times of all places in Siena, I expect the New York Times will endorse Joe Biden again. They're certainly not going to endorse Donald Trump. But they're putting forth polling on the heels of that CNN poll two weeks earlier that showed Joe Biden losing young people to Donald Trump by double digits. It happened here again in the New York Times Siena poll. New York Times Siena poll in the swing state shows that

Donald Trump is beating Joe Biden among both Hispanics and young people. Two groups that voted for Biden with at least 60% in 2020. So think about that. Even if it's half right, David, it's got to send shockwaves through your party. They're going to say it's early. People don't know all the policies yet, everything. It's early, but it's getting a little late for the incumbent president to

to say, these are the policy prescriptions I've put forth. These are the successes, and here's how it's improved your life. If this is going to be a campaign about Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, like every cable segment, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump,

then I don't think Biden can pull it off. People want to talk about the future, not the past. Our presidential elections have to be some combination of you exposing your opponent's vulnerabilities, but you also aren't being able to understand and leverage your viabilities. And I know both of you did that. Both of us did that for our respective candidates. Um,

I think the Democratic Party, the Biden White House, the Biden-Harris campaign should start listening to David Plouffe, David Axelrod, James Carville, Van Jones, Donna Brazile, all these smart, successful Democratic strategists who know what they're doing and they're saying. Basically, wake up. Where's the course correction? Well, Kelly, let me just respond to a few things. I would say that this poll is of great concern to Democrats. There's no question about it. I mean, I think that most people I talk to

believe if the election were held today, Donald Trump would win. By the way, there was plenty of times during 2012 that would have been the case with Barack Obama or at 04 with George Bush. The truth is our political history is littered with incumbents who look like they were in electoral jeopardy who figured out a way forward. I would say also that an unusually high number of voters in these polls that came out in the New York Times, Siena,

said they weren't sure of their choice. So there's, that's always important.

If you're behind, you want to see are people actually open to switching. And Joe Biden's actually doing better in his vote percentage than his approval rating, which is quite challenged, as you know, because some of those people are saying, I'm disapproving of Joe Biden, but I just can't abide Donald Trump returning. So, you know, it is I while I agree that Biden has to fill in the picture about this is what you're going to get from me. This is what's going to help your family in a second term.

You know, his greatest advantage right now is his opponent, Donald Trump. And listen, the Biden campaign that won in 20, you know, was helmed by General Malley Dillon. She's best back now as the campaign chair. I think they've got a very good campaign. They've actually got staff on the ground, unlike Donald Trump. They're advertising in all seven battleground states.

My understanding is Trump's only advertising right now in Pennsylvania. And while, you know, campaigns don't really fix the big things, and there's no doubt that Biden's biggest problem right now is inflation. People feeling like their paycheck is not going further than it did and his age. And even though Trump and Biden are within three years of each other, he pays a bigger price for that. So but I do think that when you look at there are enough voters in these states, particularly in the upper Midwest,

who may vote on abortion. And I don't think Joe Biden has fully painted the picture yet of Donald Trump's culpability with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, him saying that it's okay for states to monitor pregnant women, things that are deeply unpopular. I think Biden's going to wage a more, uh,

I think, aggressive campaign on the economy, which is you can't trust Donald Trump. You know, if you're a welder or a worker, a school teacher. Now, Trump's got some appeal there. It's going to be hard. He has to do that. There are smaller but important swaths of younger voters who will vote on an issue like climate change. So Biden's got to find a way to piece all this together. But I think when I look at it,

There's a bunch of voters voting Democrat for Senate, not for president. So as you know, in campaigns, it's always important to have data and information. That's clearly going to be your number one target. How do you move those people over to you in the presidential? You've got a bunch of voters undecided. But listen, if in fact Donald Trump, not today, but

But on Election Day, win young voters and Hispanic voters. It's going to be a massive victory. Right. And so I have huge doubt that that's the case. I think at the end of the day, Biden should be able to win young voters. But he does have to then focus on what's the vote share has to win them by enough. Can't bleed a bunch to RFK Jr. And you have to turn them out with a Hispanic vote, which, you know, we should remind people is not monolithic.

Hispanic, you know, very different in Florida, for instance, than Hispanic voters in Arizona. But that is probably the biggest concern right now. And I've got a lot of concerns, but that that has the ability, perhaps if Trump and George Bush, if I remember in 04, Kellyanne got 40 percent of that vote, which was a high watermark vote.

in modern times. You know, if Trump could get that or even exceed 40, it just puts a lot of pressure again, particularly, I think, in an Arizona, in a Nevada, a little bit less so up north. And that's why those states, the so-called blue wall that you broke into in 16 matter because it is not Joe Biden clearly wants to keep North Carolina, Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, not just in play rhetorically, but.

But for real, and in my view, as a former presidential campaign manager, your candidate shouldn't spend time in states, nor should you spend a dollar in states you can't win. Head fakes to me are complete bullshit. Like you really have to mean it. So, you know, if they say we can't win Nevada, I would be sad about that. But to me, that would be a small, smart decision. I don't see that happening because I still think that state's going to be close. They've got to keep those four in play. But.

you know, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, I think, are the key. And another thing I'd mention is Donald Trump's campaign is broke right now. And so when he says we're going to campaign in states now, he can travel to them once he gets unshackled from the courtroom, I guess, if he does, but he won't be able to run advertising. So that's my point. I know when I ran presidential campaigns, like I remember there was always a lot of discussion in our in our party happened again in 20, as you know, Texas.

Texas is not there yet. I do think Texas will be competitive at some point. But, you know, in 2012, for us to go all in in a state like that, you know, it's like hundred hundred and fifty million dollars. It's, you know, hundreds of staff. It's Canada time. So it's the most important decision a presidential campaign makes. So I just think right now we should focus on these seven. Donald Trump has an advantage in them. And again, I think the most important thing to watch is with Hispanic voters, with non-college voters, with young voters of every ethnicity.

Are some of these polls outliers or is there something fundamental happening? And that's the thing I'm going to be paying most attention to. And quite frankly, that's what the Biden campaign, I'm sure, is paying attention to, which is what can we do through smart research, through our messaging, smart messengers, some of that being positive, as you said. Campaigns are about the past, not the future. They're also about what you want to do. But they're, I think, in this race, really important.

to say what your opponent would do and why voters should be concerned about that. So I think it's fascinating just because we're starting to see a little bit more divergence between some of these northern states and some of the southern states that we normally would do and a divergence between the presidential race and Senate races. Just to level set, I'll go through the eight ways that President Trump can win based on the race to 270 peak. He's

I'm not sure I want to hear this, but there are eight paths. One is Georgia plus Arizona plus Wisconsin or Pennsylvania and Georgia or Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada or Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nevada or Michigan, Georgia, Nevada or Michigan, Arizona, Wisconsin or Michigan, Wisconsin, Georgia or Pennsylvania, Michigan, Nebraska District 2. That gets Trump to 270. Why do I say that? Because the reason the Trump campaign thinks they can expand their map is they're looking at polling that shows him competitive and

in Minnesota State. We lost only by one and a half points and barely went there in 2016, I remember. And then I remember this Saturday to Sunday swing right before the election, so nine, 10 days before the election, the last full weekend. And I had told Mr. Trump on the Thursday, you asked to go

to either Minnesota or Virginia. We can make that happen. Which one do you want to go to? And he said both, which was very typical for him. So we figured it out. You have to tell Secret Service. You got to get assets on the ground. We figured it out. He started out on a Saturday in Minnesota.

A lot of the media mocked us. Oh, what is he going to put up a Trump hotel there? Ha ha ha, Minnesota. People park their cars in the cold and walk to the arena. And after eight or nine stops, the next day, the next night he ended in Virginia after midnight. And there too had all these crowds. And I have to say, because we're hot on the heels of this unbelievable rally in Wildwood, New Jersey, my stomping grounds, I'm a South Jersey girl.

I introduced President Trump at the first Wildwood Rally in January 29th, 2020. I had three of my children there. We all enjoyed it. We had the first Democrat to Republican, majority to minority rally.

candidate sitting congressman to switch parties in Jeff Andrews. He wanted to go celebrate that in that district. I say that because we're seeing again now what I saw in 2016, which is these massive crowds and the media saying, but will they vote? No, they stood overnight in the pouring rain or the blaring heat just to be part of a rally with tens of thousands of other people, something Joe Biden could just dream of on his beach chair in Rehoboth. And

And yet they're not going to vote. Of course they're going to vote. So I think there's actually even this cognitive dissonance. People are just denying that there would be this resurgence for Donald Trump, who they said were flat on their backs. And I think point number one, the best advice I can give to your Democratic Party, and they're going to say, nobody asked you, Kellyanne, sure you're listening and sure you're watching. Stop denigrating, castigating, and insulting and making fun of other people who vote a different way.

You're not going to win Trump voters by making fun of Trump voters. And I have to say, after 2016, the one major failing for those who never saw Trump coming, which is most of the people whose job it was to see Trump coming, was nobody spent a second, a minute, an hour a year

trying to learn how that happened, why that happened. Let's just make fun of them. They're low information voters. They don't go to college. They're welders and carpenters. They're stay-at-home moms. They're religious. They're Bible thumpers. They're pro-life. They're for the Second Amendment. Stuff like President Obama had said when he campaigned that time. People clinging to their gods, their guns, their Bibles, whatever it was. It's insulting. And I don't understand it.

And the more it happens, I think the more you're pushing voters who don't even like Donald Trump and didn't vote for him before toward President Trump. Well, there's a lot to respond to. So first of all, I would say there was a lot and I was part of some of it.

examination of what happened in 16. And one of the reasons, the main reason Joe Biden won in 2020 was his improvement in rural areas and exurban areas of blue collar voters over that. He was a strong candidate. I think remains so. And I still think Donald Trump is Joe Biden's greatest gift right now. He's a deeply unpopular person. And I think at the end of the day, we're

when you think about something like abortion, yes, there are some voters that will vote on that. Others won't. Some will vote on the economy. Some will decide who looked better in debate. Someone's going to vote on housing. But abortion, as we saw since Roe v. Wade, has driven election outcomes, not polls, election outcomes. And Democrats have won just about everything you can win. And I still think it's going to be important. I mean, it's not just that Donald Trump is the single most

He's the single biggest reason on the planet that Roe v. Wade was overturned. And he brags about it. It's his singular accomplishment. So,

So this is the reason that there's still a pathway for Joe Biden. It is definitely a narrower path than I would like or most Democrats would like, but it's there because of Donald Trump. And the question is, how do you put together a winning coalition? And I think that lots of times people simplify politics. Well, it should just be this word or this message. And as you know, it's not that easy. It's like you're collecting lots of different voters.

Demographically, age wise, in terms of the issues you care about. And that's why I do think that having the ability financially, you know, I certainly know in the presidential campaigns I was involved with, you wanted it to be in a situation where you had the ability to run different types of ads, different voters has become a lot more complicated than when you and I started.

in politics because, you know, it's not just TV. Obviously, you have to have channel strategies for every social media platform. You've got radio, you've got television, you've got streaming. But with good data, which these presidential campaigns tend to have on both sides, you know, you have a sense of who those voters are, how do they live their lives, how do they get information, what's the best way to reach them, what issues do they care about?

And I still think there's a pathway for Biden if they do a good job of, you know, basically being faithful to that data. And I think they can. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's it's inflation for sure. I don't think people are out there for the most part saying the salvation that we need. The answer to my problems is return of Donald Trump. But they're unhappy about the economy.

And this is why I think the debates are going to be important. And I'd love your thoughts on that, because I think it's Joe Biden's probably best opportunity to show America what his agenda is. I agree with you. People have to know. Listen, if I vote for you, it just can't be against the other guy. As important as that is, what are you going to do for me? And to show that he's up to this. So let me just say on with respect to abortion, I appreciate you saying the quiet part out loud. You said that Joe Biden still has a path to win because of abortion.

You just proved that this is what they're going to hang most of their campaigning on, particularly when it comes to the vice president, who they tried to make her the border czar, the voting rights czar, give her this or that in the other portfolio. I've read the press reports where even her husband has complained it's not fair that she has stuff in her portfolio. So finally, they have something that she feels comfortable talking about everywhere and all the time, abortion, abortion, abortion. Abortion, how?

has been and will be this year a vote motivator and a turnout intensifier for the pro-abortion crowd. There's no question about that.

So the Republicans should not fall down on this. They should be peacocks, not ostriches on this issue. And some of them will lose because they don't know how to articulate what they actually believe. The idea that a Republican candidate would lose to a Democrat whose party believes abortion, anyone, anytime, anywhere, anyhow, if you don't believe me, read your party's plank.

The idea that 47 of 50 European countries have 15 weeks or less gestationally, 15 weeks, the woman knows she's pregnant, the baby can feel pain. Nonpartisan doctors and scientists say they give the baby anesthesia if they're performing an in vitro surgery.

We have babies being born. Thank God, David. I'm sure you can agree in this country now due to medical and technological advances at 23 weeks, 24 weeks, 22 weeks and six days, 25 weeks certainly. I'd love for your party to say, hey, California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Colorado, states where it's way past viability. It's well into the 30s, if not up to the moment of birth as legal. Hey, why don't we get a little bit closer?

as a compromise to where the babies in our states are being born. I think this is legitimate conversation based on science that we should be having. And again, we voters, we Americans, we very rarely go into the ballot box thinking of one thing

We are not single issue thinkers, single issue voters. We are multitaskers all through our lives. And so that we take that into the ballot box. Stop by Sherwin-Williams and get 30% off duration products and super deck stains from August 23rd through the 26th.

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Now, David, you mentioned the presidential debates, and it so happens that we now have actual dates on the books. Both the Biden and Trump campaigns have agreed to June 27th before both conventions and September 10th, right after the proverbially important Labor Day event.

and the start of the fall and the last two months push to election day. So I think it's very timely that you and I maybe reflect on some of the experiences that we've had actually prepping our respective candidates, you, Barack Obama, me, Donald Trump, for these debates. And I think you and I have both had an opportunity to prep the vice presidential candidates as well, in your case with Senator Joe Biden and in my case with Governor Mike Pence.

in 2016. I personally think debates are incredibly important and essential component of our direct democracy. They allow we, the people, free of charge to tune in and see these candidates shoulder to shoulder, not in a split screen, not just attacking the other, not just through their paid advertisements, but see them shoulder to shoulder. And the irony for 2024, I will say,

is that in addition to people saying, well, who can lead me and my loved ones into the future? Which of these candidates has that vision, has the policy prescription agenda, and makes me feel confident about their competence? But the add-on here in 2024, ironically, is that you can actually look at Biden and Trump and also assess, okay,

whose policies you liked better while they were president, something that this country has not been able to do since late into the 19th century. Well, yeah, Kelly, and what's interesting, I think in a lot of races these days, governor, Senate, Congress, you know, unless somebody makes a massive mistake, they're less important in elections than they probably were, you know, a generation or two ago. But presidential debates remain incredibly important. So first of all, I agree with you. They're important for the citizenry.

It's not the perfect audition, but it's the best we have. So people can kick the tires and say, which of these two people could be commander in chief? Now, this one's fascinating because they've both been commander in chief, but they're going to kick the tires again, given their advanced age, given that's a rematch. And what I found really hard, and at least for Barack Obama, now he went five and one in his sixth presidential debate. So pretty good record.

The one was a total bomb, the first one against Romney. We'll talk about the problems incumbents historically have in debates, Bill Clinton really being the only incumbent president who I think had a super strong first debate. But they are not, unfortunately, as much policy debates as I think most of us would like. They are performances first and foremost. First of all, short answers, short answers.

You've got your opponent ready to pounce. You've got all the ridiculous dynamics with the moderators. But it is as important how you say something as what you say. It's as important to get to your core message on the issue in the first 10 seconds as it is to give a good, complete answer. You know, Barack Obama is a constitutional professor, right? So you kind of when you think about it, a lawyer kind of builds up to the last statement in their closing argument. But in a debate, you can't do that. You got to like almost be athletic, like a leopard, right?

and ready to leap and hit your message. So I think what's fascinating about this one is it's incredibly important because voters have big questions about both candidates. Donald Trump leads in this race right now. Joe Biden, I think, still has a pathway to come back. But clearly for Joe Biden, the most important thing will be, does he come across energetic?

in that first debate, Kelly, and I believe it was, yeah, it was the first debate in 2020 where Biden said, shut up, man, to Trump. That's not a policy statement, but it was important. It showed some strength.

And so I think, can he handle Trump? Well, kind of rude, but I think, right. But I think that's the thing. These are human beings, right? And no two debates are the same. So Biden, I think, has to. We know Trump likes to interrupt moderators. You know, Biden's got to prepare for that. You know, you don't want to sit there and just abide by the rules if your opponent's not going to. But I think...

how he handles Trump, the more forceful attacks Trump's going to bring and he'll bring them. Trump is, you know, he loves this stage. He dominated the Republican debates in 2016, just mowed down that field. You know, I think Biden did pretty well in 20, but this is an event that Trump, I think has had some success at. So Joe Biden has a lot more riding on this first debate than Donald Trump. He has to have a solid performance. It doesn't mean he needs to win it by like 40 points, but,

But he has to, because if not, the questions will continue. I was curious, Kelly, and I have a question for you. This went down so easily, like within two hours of social media, we had a debate. So are you confident that these debates are going to happen on the dates and with the networks that we've all now believe we're going to be watching in June and September? David, it was super fast. And we should probably remind or educate our listeners that

The Commission on Presidential Debates, CPD, after decades of leading this process, looks like they'll no longer be involved at all. Thank God for that. Yes. That is a big change. I think there is some bipartisan agreement on that, which is no disrespect to the individuals involved at the CPD, by the way. I know people work hard to do their best. But going outside of that process and cutting the deal with the two campaigns, I thought was pretty remarkable and pretty swift and

President Trump is so confident, it seems, that he can best Joe Biden in the debate. And that, as you say, David Plouffe, this is a sweet spot, a natural habitat for Donald Trump, standing on that debate stage and being able to confront his opponent. And in 2016, his opponents, 16, 17 of them in the Republican primary, and also convince Trump.

the larger part of the electorate that he has a better vision for the, for the country. Um, I'm surprised that after not giving CNN a single presidential interview, town hall, nothing as president, all four years that president Trump's team was so quick to say yes to CNN. But that also just tells you, uh, that they, they look at the polls, they're going for, they're widening their reach, uh,

with the so-called six or seven swing states. We're going to talk about that a little next week. I think, David, about Minnesota, Virginia, maybe New Hampshire, that they're very confident that we have no evidence. There is no physical evidence right here, right now, that Joe Biden can stand on the podium, let alone without a teleprompter for 90 minutes. If he can do that, God bless him. I do hope that in this debate,

On the Biden side that Joe Biden, if asked the same question in 2024, he was asked in 2020, he'll tell the truth this time. He has, in fact, discussed business with his son, Hunter Biden. The laptop is real. It was not did not have the quote marks of Russian disinformation as 51 national security quote experts claimed it did. Joe Biden did not tell the truth in that debate.

And I think it's important. And here's my advice to President Trump in this debate. And I have prepped him, helped prep him for the other debates in 2016 and mostly in 2020, at least among the people who were invited and supposed to be in the room. I was the only woman in the room prepping him. And I think that gave a whole different perspective to things.

President Trump should have faith that he knows what we all see. We see Joe Biden every single day. There is a majority of Democrats in everybody's polling that said they didn't even want Joe Biden to run for another term. He's not up to the job physically or mentally, et cetera. I wouldn't spend too much time on that if I were President Trump. I would say Joe Biden wants to talk about me and I want to talk about

about you or to you. Joe Biden wants to fight with me. I want to fight for you, the people. Now, I know you can hardly resist punching and counterpunching once you're up there,

and you are a former president, current president, maybe future president, one of them needs to be reelected, right? And then they're immediately lame-duck term limited. But I think it's important because the way that the Republican primary candidates handled Donald Trump in the debates, and he wasn't even on the stage, was backward in my humble view. They should have ignored him. Instead, they're like, why isn't he here? He's afraid. Donald Trump's afraid to speak.

We haven't heard from him. You haven't heard from Donald Trump? Said no one ever. So there is a way to handle Donald Trump that nobody's been able to do yet in terms of why don't you just talk to the people about your great record, Joe Biden, about how wonderful our lives are, that we should look the other way at 20 percent inflation on poor household goods and expenses like housing.

Well, I think I agree that should be Trump's strategy. I have huge doubts whether he could execute it. But and I think Biden also both of these candidates obviously are going to critique each other's record. But elections are about the future, as Bill Clinton and many successful politicians have said. And I think this is a big opportunity, both for the original audience. I think there'll be a healthy number of Americans who tune in. But of course, we live in a world where clips bounce around all these social media platforms.

sites in the days after. And I think you have to factor that into your preparation, which is obviously you're focused on, okay, I'm next to my opponent for this period of time.

I'm going to get asked about health care, inflation, democracy, abortion, whatever it is. But you also, I think, have to be mindful of you don't want to chase moments because I think that can look artificial. You know, but you want to make sure you exit this debate with one, two, three moments that people will be sharing on TikTok and on Instagram and on other social media sites. It's really, really important because there's a secondary audience that's not going to tune in.

They're probably not going to watch the whole debate. So what they'll see is clips. Now, of course, mistakes turn into memes. And so you want to avoid a mistake. That's really important. But I think the preparation here is going to be really important because that is, I think sometimes candidates who struggle in debates, they prepare like issue by issue. Like, here's my answer on health care. Here's my answer on the economy. You got to step back and say, what's our overall strategy?

How much are we talking about the future? How much are we talking about our record? How much are we attacking our opponent? How much humor do we want to use? Like there's big questions, right?

that a good presidential candidate in their team will address because otherwise it's just a bunch of tactics really but it's got to be married to an overall strategy right and i think for joe biden you want people to exit this debate saying he had energy he was stronger than i thought and there's no doubt kelly and i think you'd agree he's got low expectations i mean and you know donald trump is saying he's the worst debater ever i'm not sure donald trump should say that but the truth is the public's got questions about biden's age so i think the bar is not as high for him but

But he's got to leave a sense of like he's hungry for the next four years. And I think for Donald Trump, you're right. You know, if he gives people a sense that not that he's a different Donald Trump, but he's going to be laser focused on people's problems, at least in this debate.

I think that would, as opposed to just the geriatric, you know, cage rematch that everybody expects. And there'll be a component of that, but this is, this is, I think Joe Biden's most important moment for the rest of the campaign. That's crazy to say, but it is that first debate is always important, even though it's in June. And I think Donald Trump's team clearly aggressively said, we're not going to play games. We're going to jump into this first debate because we think we can further our position in the race. So it's really important to both candidates, uh,

And the other thing I'd say about this is having prepared candidates. I mean, you and I have done it a long time for other offices, right? What you learn is here's the rules. Here's how long the debate is. How many candidates? Here's our answers. But every debate prep I've been part of, the candidate goes up there because they're a human effing being.

And they do something that wasn't on the script, right? For good or for bad. I mean, they can't help it. You get up there and that's, to me, that's what makes it so, it is like a really high stakes athletic contest in that regard. Like Hagler-Hearns, that legendary fight from the 80s. You know, they both threw out the rule book and said, we're just going to wail on each other, right? That's not what they were supposed to do. At least Hearns wasn't.

So that's the thing that I find interesting is, you know, for people like you and I who've been part of like trying to nail down every facial expression, every word you're going to say, how are you going to respond to this attack? And the candidate gets up there and, you know, something comes they weren't expecting or they get really upset or they see an opening like it's just super interesting. So I remember always feel going even the debates where you went in feeling good.

You always have an asterisk, right? And, you know, by the way, body language heading into debates makes sense. You know, Barack Obama bombed his first debate in 2012 against Romney.

Ronald Reagan did the same thing in 84 against Mondale. George W. Bush did it against Kerry. Incumbents have a hard time in their first debates. I think Donald Trump had less of a delta, but it wasn't his strongest debate because they're busy. They haven't been attacked personally like that in a long time. They've got a record they're going to defend. But right before Obama went on to the stage in that debate in Colorado in 2012, David Axelrod and I were in the locker room. I forget if it was

basketball or hockey backstage. And we had a little tradition before all the debates through the years, you kind of do a fist bump and, you know, a little pick me up. And he just gave us like a very desultory fist bump and said, let's just get this over with.

And, you know, that's what he brought out to the stage. Like he was not excited to be there. He kind of didn't follow the script. Our script was terrible. Like it was a failure, both of the candidate and his team. So I think that body language is important. And I think for both Biden and Trump, they know how important this is. So I think they'll both go out there with at least the intention.

to deliver a strong performance. But again, I want people to understand, yes, the words matter, but you know, we know historically Al Gore side in that debate against George W. Bush in 2000, that's what hurt him. Right. You know, George H.W. Bush looked at his watch like he was bored in, in his debate. In Richmond, Virginia. Right. Then I, right. Then I think in the, in the third debate, Kerry kind of got in George W. Bush's space and people didn't like that. So like,

For all the words and all the policies like those things, facial expressions. I mean, in Obama's first debate in 12, one of our problems was when he wasn't speaking and he wasn't good when he was speaking, he looked annoyed because, of course, it's a split screen. And when Mitt Romney was speaking, Obama just looked annoyed and wanted to be anywhere else but there, which is kind of true. So the prep of this is also really important because the visual part of this, the body language is so important.

Yep. So I just wanted to say a couple of quick things. Thank you for the treatment of the debates that you're providing to the audience today. You kept using the word athletic. These are athletic contests. I agree. And I don't think many people associate the word athletic, let alone peripatetic with Joe Biden. So that could be an advantage for Trump. But since you gave some color, I'll give some also. After that first debate in 2012, I certainly was not part of the Romney campaign.

I think they sat on a lead that wasn't real. David, in other words, clearly everyone thought, sounds like you thought too, as a key Obama advisor, that Mitt Romney had gotten the best of President Obama in that particular debate. But I felt then he was kind of told, stand down, just mail it in and you'll beat him. And that's not the way it goes.

Um, that's like the whole world telling George W. Bush in 1998, 1999, you can win, you can win. You're the electable one. You can win. Nobody can beat you. They get to New Hampshire. John McCain beats him by 18 points. And he says, folks, what's going on? He told me I couldn't lose. Nobody else could win. Um, we just lost and they really kicked it up a notch, I guess, starting in South Carolina. So whether it's the debate or an eat the dust in front of you kind of

eat the dust and dirt in front of you kind of lost in a primary caucus gets you going. That's what happens. I remember that final debate, October 19th, 2016, we were 12 days after Access Hollywood. We went to a debate two days after the Access Hollywood tape in St. Louis. There we were for the third and final debate. And you can just feel this inevitability in the air from Hillary and her team. Like, okay, I just have to

put up with Donald Trump for 90 more minutes, and then I get the brass ring. And he brought his A game. I mean, challenging her toward the end of that debate on the issue of abortion and saying, you're the extremist, you would rip that baby out of its mother's womb an hour before it's being born. Nobody had ever talked like that in a debate stage. Not all these big pro-life messengers of many years. And it took a

It took a Manhattan male billionaire, non-politician, real estate executive for whom most of his adult life had been pro-choice to give the most impassioned and graphic defense of life ever coming from a presidential debate stage. And Hillary really didn't have a good answer. So you can make these moments. I feel he said he was just feeling it at that moment. You said that Axelrod and you would do a fist bump and some other...

a habitual maybe exchange of words with President Obama in 2012 before he went out. I tried to lead us in prayer before Mr. Trump went out. And I remember a couple of funny outtakes from that as well. But, you know, very nourishing to have that as the last moment as well before you go out there, recognizing that it's not all in your hands. But I think these debates are important. And I would just say this.

There's not a lot that can be said or done to Donald Trump now that would shock people's conscience. And I feel like it would be a risk for Joe Biden to just keep repeating all of the shop worn over and over again attacks on Donald Trump. They're almost baked in this campaign. And if some of these swing states end up being on the razor's edge, then

where Biden is able to close a gap that currently is very large in most of these swing states, it's not going to come in repeating what is heard on the cable stations every night or already in his paid advertisement or by other people, by his surrogates. I think Joe Biden should try to take the high road a little bit because what's missing for him right now is this unifier, moderate government

you know, dealmaker that we were all promised. Well, here's what I think. I think that if you look at the race right now, look at these Senate races, Democratic Senate candidates doing a lot better than Joe Biden. So if you're a campaign manager, you say, OK, some of those voters are available to us. They're currently undecided or parking with Trump. A strong performance word like, OK, he brought it. He was energetic.

You know, he had some good ideas. He seems excited about a second term. I think that can help. I think Donald Trump right now in polls anyway is getting the votes of some people who I think still have questions about him. And I think so for him, the question is your suggestion that Donald Trump ignore Joe Biden and say, hey, I'm just going to focus on you, I think would be smart. Whether Donald Trump is capable of doing that, I don't know.

That seems not to be how he rolls in his interviews and in his debates. And listen, let's not forget, yes, I think that voters right now would say Trump seems a little more, he's almost feral in a way. But, you know, he's had his senior moments in the courtroom. He had two minutes where he couldn't speak this weekend because the teleprompter went dark. Like both of these candidates, there's issues around, I think, their performance.

Okay. I think that we at least table set what we're expecting from some of the debates and we are seeing them really early for a general election. David, the Republican National Convention is July 15th to 18th. Even that's early, but the debates are going to happen before that convention, before the Democratic Convention in mid-August. I actually think it's appropriate given all the early voting that's happening in our country now. Everything is being pushed earlier and

away from that November 5th election day. So why not have our presidential debates and vice presidents debate a little earlier also? I agree. I would like to see a third debate, like maybe end of September, early October. Maybe we will, because the candidate that needs it most will be pursuing that, I'm sure. So we'll have to see.

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Hey, what's up?

Well, it's going to be beyond fascinating and critical what happens in these debates, and we'll stay on top of it. But Kellyanne, presidential debate is just one part of a presidential campaign. So I kind of wanted to talk to you as a campaign manager of a successful presidential campaign in 2016, what it takes to build a successful presidential campaign. And I guess I'll start by saying,

A campaign can't change huge things. Like a campaign's not going to change somebody who's 80 or 78 into 40. Like a campaign's not going to change somebody's view that the economy is really bad to what's really good.

but it can force choices. It's not going to turn a state you were going to lose 55 to 45 into a win. I'd argue probably not even 53, 47, but it could turn a state you were going to lose, you know, with third parties this year, it may take 48, 48 and a half to win. It could lose, turn a state. If you had a decisively better campaign than your opponent, it could turn something you were going to lose, you know, 48, 47 into a 48, 47 win.

And I think, you know, what is a presidential campaign? It's the allocation of the candidate, the vice president. It's allocation of resources. Where are we going to spend our precious dollars? It's deciding which states to target. It's deciding how many staff to hire. It's deciding every day what message are we driving? How are we responding to an attack? Our opponents leveling that we think may be hurtering us or say, you know, the media thinks that attack against us is working, but it's not based on a research. So we're going to ignore it.

It's basically figuring out things like in this campaign, you mentioned there's different pathways. Trump has a few more now that they both have multiple pathways of the presidency. But what's going to happen with third parties? Like if RFK Jr. and that collection of folks gets 4%, that's different than 8%. That's different than 12%. It's different than 2%. I also am looking at these third party candidates. I would ask RFK Jr. and Cornel West and Jill Stein, I'd say, which state can you win?

Show me a state where you can get a higher percentage of the vote and grab the electoral votes of that state. You're going to get a higher percentage than Biden and Trump. And the answer to that is none so far. Look at the primaries in 2016. Bernie Sanders, he beat Hillary Clinton in over 20 contests. He got 13 million votes. That is huge. But he did with inside the party.

And I think we can talk about this in the future, but we should probably, in this first podcast, David, discuss for the audience something that you and I have talked a great deal about, which is the history of third parties. So 1992, Ross Perot, he gets 19% of the popular vote after he dropped out and got back in the race that summer. But he gets zero, zero electoral votes, zero, the same number you and I got each time.

Bill Clinton gets only 43% or so of the popular vote, but he gets 68.8% of the electoral vote. That is a commanding lead and he wins the presidency, becomes a two-term president. George Herbert Walker Bush, the incumbent, gets somewhere in the 30%.

And so this is important because what looks like, oh my God, third party candidacy, a growing number of independents. All along, RFK Jr. has been hurting Biden more than Trump. We're starting to see signs that he's taken some votes away from Trump.

But the question for him remains, which state can you actually win? Otherwise, you and your voters are just being a spoiler and you're going to throw the election to one of the other candidates that by definition being an RFK Jr. voter, you've already decided you don't want to be president.

Well, it's going to be fascinating because it's not only will he not win a state. I mean, odds are we'd still have six months, but, you know, he's not going to get above 10 percent. You know, as we know, the history also suggests Perot being kind of the outlier every other time. Third party candidates don't get anywhere near in actual votes what they got in Poland. But we know it matters. I mean, in your race in 16, you know, Donald Trump was able to win the presidency, winning battleground states with 47, 48 percent of the vote in neither one of his races.

was he getting anywhere close to 50%? And I think that's an interesting question, which is,

Can Trump get to 50 again? He probably won't have to because these third party candidates you've got to think will get what, four or five? I guess we don't know. But but I do think you get the sense from some Republicans from the Trump campaign, just given the vitriol of some of the attacks on Kennedy, that they're starting to see that it is not a straightforward situation that this is hurting Biden. And it may differ by state.

And I think a fascinating thing to think through, which is, you know, at what percentage does it hurt one versus the other? You know, if Kennedy, Stein, West, a bunch of them, if they're getting eight, maybe that hurts Biden more. If it's four, maybe that hurts Trump. We just don't know. And so this is where a presidential campaign is important. You have to develop a theory of that. Now, to your point, maybe RFK Jr. ultimately says, I can't win. I'm getting out. I doubt that's going to happen.

But if he doesn't and these others stay in, like that's super important from a campaign nerd data perspective, right? Which is you've got to figure out like, okay-

With with the third parties at three, at five, at six, at eight, where does that leave us? And by the way, your pathway to victory then mathematically may change a little bit. You may need to overperform in certain demographic groups than in other situations. So to me, just as you think about what a presidential campaign does, that's a good example of, yes, it's math. And in a two party, two person race, it's hard enough, but it's more straightforward. You know, this is more complicated.

Absolutely. And that's why we're going to have a podcast every week to discuss that and more. And I know, David, after the first couple of episodes together, we're going to start inviting some really cool guests on, some that would be familiar to our audience and some that they probably haven't heard from in a while. So I think this was an absolutely great start to our podcast. We got into it a little bit, as we're expected to. This is not a kumbaya hour, but it's one to be smart strategists and to

sort of use past as prologue, but to understand that elections are about the future and what is it that people are saying to pollsters right now is important, if not determinative to them, this election cycle. You and I both know, David, there's not just October surprises, but now there's voting in September. There's last minute stuff going on in November. Even the way that we ran the campaigns in 2008, 2012, 2016,

is, would differ so much now. I think one thing I'm going to say as my last comment that we can pick up in our next episode, I'm watching Message, Messenger, and Delivery, David Plouffe. But delivery is no longer just a style, it's a system. And I'm really struck by the facts and the figures that show us

About 49% of American households right now have a traditional television package and it's about 39% in our swing states. So if people aren't looking at traditional network TV to get their news and information, is it the most...

cost-benefit, true-to-form idea and decision to have these ads on traditional television as opposed to streaming or like we did in 2016 because we didn't have money running them on Google and Facebook and Twitter and places like that.

So I think that's a great question for us to pick up as one of our next topics in the next podcast, because we need to deliver these messages and our messengers where people live literally and not expect them to come to us. And that really is even different, even from 2016 and certainly 2008. Well, there's no question, Kelly. I mean, no good consumer company tries to force

consumers to find them. You go find them. You go find those consumers. A good political campaign knows here's the voters were either trying to persuade, turn out, register. And how do they live their lives? How are they getting information? And the majority of them are not obviously getting information. Some of them never watch television. So a good political campaign, I think, is spending more of their money on digital than television for sure.

Don't forget radio. Still an important way to reach people, particularly in certain parts of the country.

TikTok is obviously driving, particularly with young people. It's the exclusive way a lot of them get information, but you can't advertise on that platform. So you've got to think through a content strategy. So this is critically important. The days of Ronald Reagan or JFK reaching 80% or 90% of the country easily, those days are over. I mean, there's still a presidential candidate megaphone, but it's kind of been shattered into a million pieces and you've got to kind of reassemble that.

And again, this is where I think in terms of what does a presidential campaign actually do? You know, for every voter that matters to you, you should have a sense of like, how do I reach them? Maybe some it is streaming. Maybe it's still local TV news. Maybe it is exclusively social media. And honestly, you kind of want to have the resources to do a bunch of that stuff because you're never sure where you're going to reach a voter. But I do think, listen, you have to think visual first these days and video first.

You know, I love the written word. I'm sure you do. I love presidential speeches. I love when candidates give big speeches. It's important. What's probably more important than the speech is how you cut that down. You know, what are the video assets? You know, what are you doing with that on TikTok, on Instagram Reels? And that's the world we're living in. Well, listen, this was our first episode of the Campaign Managers podcast. We'd love to ask all of you to be sure to like and subscribe it.

And so that you can easily get our episodes every week. And if you can leave us a good review and tell us what you'd like us to dive into. We're going to be watching that carefully and we'll be responding to some of your questions and requests of us so we can have a dialogue. And so for myself, David Plouffe. And for me, Kellyanne Conway. Thank you so much for joining us. And remember, it's easy to be enraged, but it's essential to be engaged. Have a great week, everyone. Have a great week.

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My Keurig Brewer from Walmart always comes in super clutch. I got it so I can keep grinding on my paper. You know I'm hitting that deadline. I also got it so I can stay up late to do some exam cramming. And of course, you know I'll be ready to stroll into my morning class sipping in style.

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