Maura Murray: A Conversation With Julie Murray
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Since the very beginning of Murder, She Told, there has been one case that has topped my request list like none other. And if you're from New England, and even if you're not, it's probably one that you're familiar with. The disappearance of Mara Murray, a 21-year-old nursing student who vanished from her car on the back roads of rural New Hampshire in February of 2004.

If you aren't familiar, let's just say this case has more questions than answers, and the rabbit hole on this one is deep. And don't worry, we'll give you a brief synopsis so you can still listen to this even if you don't know much about it. But in the shadows of this crazy true crime story is a family. A family who's been put through the wringer. A family who, quite frankly, deserved better.

For the past two years, I have had the pleasure of getting to know Mara's older sister, Julie Murray. She is an amazing person, and 20 years later, she is finally ready to step into the spotlight as a public advocate for her little sister. And she has a lot to say. I'm Kristen Sevey, and this is Murder, She Told.

I am Julie Murray. I am one of Mara Murray's sisters, and I am the one that does interviews and advocates publicly for my missing sister, Mara. So I want to start out by pointing out a TikTok that you posted about your sister's name recently and how it's pronounced because...

Honestly, the version in my head was incorrect. And I don't think that I've actually heard anyone other than you pronounce it the way that I now know is correct. So it's Mara.

And not Maura, right? Yeah, that's right. It's Maura. And after I did that TikTok, I got a ton of comments about how I'm saying it wrong or it's just how we say it. I think it's a New England thing. I'm not sure, but it's always been Maura and not Maura. And I said in the TikTok that it's like Laura with an M.

And then people like piled onto that and say, no, it's Laura. And I'm like, oh, that was a bad way to describe it. But yes, it's Mara. I mean, either way, that's how your family pronounced it. So like, that's her name.

It blows my mind that people would correct you on it and be like, well, you're the one pronouncing it wrong. I know. I know. And it's probably very much our Boston accent. I don't really have my Boston accent that much anymore. It comes in and out. But definitely growing up, you know, we had very thick Boston accents and it was Mara.

Before listening to media pressure, I think really the only things that I knew about Mara as a person was that she was athletic. She went to West Point. She was on the Dean's List at UMass for nursing. Can you tell me a little bit about Mara beyond this? Like, who was she to your family?

Well, Mara was the youngest until our little brother Curtis came along. So she was the kind of jokester of the family. And, uh,

Of course, having three older siblings, she got picked on a lot, you know, especially in such a competitive family as mine. And so she developed this quick wit really early to try to combat us. She was a lot of fun, really, really clever and really thoughtful and humble. She always used to send thank you cards to anyone and everyone or just anyone.

letters for no reason. That's just kind of the person she was. I think her choosing a nursing career is indicative of her personality of, you know, wanting to help other people. Yeah, just a lot of fun to grow up with. Athletic, super, super smart, and just really kind.

I like the music choices that she liked. I feel like I could vibe with her on this because I grew up listening to like oldies and classic rock. And I was like, okay, I like her music. She definitely had an old school taste in music. And a lot of that came from our older brother, Freddie, and my mother as well.

She loved all of the old stuff, but then she kind of sprinkled in some of the newer stuff. New is relative now 20 years later, but she definitely had that artistic side to her as well. What was your relationship like with her? Oh, we were best friends. She was two and a half years younger. We played all sports together. We played

joked around constantly. There wasn't much to do other than play sports and do our homework. And so there were some times where we would just make up our own games and play. And of course, there was a little bit of that sibling rivalry going on. But at the end of the day, we were each other's number one fans for sure. So you guys got pretty competitive, I'm guessing, because you're both athletic

Well, I'll tell you a story. So when I got into high school, I started kind of rising up the ranks in cross country and track. And I started to establish a name for myself and win races and break records. And then Mara came along and she was actually a better distance runner than I was. I was more suited for mid-distance.

And there was a couple races where I knew she could beat me. Like she was right on my shoulder and yeah,

She let me win, essentially. So I know that she really looked up to me. We had a really special bond. And that's something as distance runners, it sort of comes natural because you are spending so much time together. And it's hard, but also sometimes it's a little boring. So you just start talking about anything and nothing at all. And those are some of my best memories, those long runs with Mara.

What did she want to do for her future? I know that she was obviously going to school for nursing, but were there any dreams and goals that she had for her future? That's an interesting question because I was just talking to a friend about it the other day. I was thinking that Mara would eventually want to do the Appalachian Mountain Trail from Maine down to Georgia. So I was thinking...

I would kind of want to do that too, but I wouldn't do it unless I had someone to do it with. And Mara would have done that with me. So things like that, I think she would really want to do. And it makes me sad because some of those things I wouldn't have done because I'm not the one that's going to say, hey, let's go to do this. But Mara would have been like, yeah, we're doing this. She was studying to be a nurse, but she...

She was so smart that I think eventually, in my mind, she probably would have pursued something like a nurse practitioner or maybe even nurse anesthetist or something where she could use her skills in science and math to kind of progress within the nursing field. What brought her to UMass at Amherst?

Mara got into West Point, and West Point is very difficult. It's that way by design. And she was there for a little over a year and a half. And in that year and a half, I could tell she wasn't happy. She made some mistakes, some poor decisions. She stole some makeup from Post Exchange. It just wasn't for her. And

That coupled with the fact that we had just gone to Iraq and now we're in a state of war, all West Point cadets have to serve five years active duty. And so that in a 18, 19 year old's mind, that's like a lifetime. So I think she realized she wasn't happy and she didn't want to make that commitment. So she left before she took that oath to where she would have been locked in to have to serve in active duty.

I think that's an important point to make because I feel like generationally 9-11 was such a huge thing for everybody, especially people who were looking to serve in the military. It's kind of incomprehensible for a young person at that age who hadn't experienced any

any type of military environment. And then to add on top of that, oh, we're no longer in peacetime now. We're probably all deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan.

And for me, I had already surpassed that two-year period. So I had already taken the oath. So I was locked in. I had no choice. But in doing the Media Pressure podcast, I interviewed one of our classmates, Megan Sawyer, who was in the same position as Mara. She was in Mara's same grade, who also was faced with that same decision. And she opted to leave because of it.

It wasn't abnormal, I think, for other people in that position to really weigh that decision carefully. Thank you for sharing that, because I think that it's something that isn't really considered when talking about her transition from West Point to a normal university. Can you give me a brief synopsis about the disappearance?

So on February 9th, 2004, early, early in the morning, Mara submits her nursing school homework assignment. It was about 3.32 a.m. And so she submits her homework and then she does some computer searches online. She was searching for directions to Vermont. Then she concludes her computer work really, really early, like 4 a.m. or something like that, which was a lot of work.

which wasn't abnormal for Mara because she was a night owl. So she stops the computer searches, presumably get some sleep. And then the next, the same day, mid morning, she does some more computer searches and then she makes some phone calls. So she calls 1-800-GO-STOW, which is a ski resort in Stowe, Vermont. And Mara,

She calls this information line. So it was just kind of a recording of ski conditions and things of that nature. It wasn't a line where she could actually book a reservation. And this is kind of out of order. But then she emails her professor saying that there was a fictitious death in the family. That was not true. And it was basically her trying to buy some time away from school.

And then she calls a condo owner in Bartlett, New Hampshire, which is a very different location than Stowe, Vermont. It's about a two and a half hour drive.

car ride away. And she speaks to the owner of the condo and she does not book a reservation. Then she plays phone tag with her boyfriend, doesn't connect with him, sends him an email. And then she goes to an ATM and withdraws $280, heads to a liquor store, purchases $40 worth of alcohol and returns 79 cans.

After that, she picks up some accident forms because she had an accident in my father's car the Saturday before she disappeared. And then she heads north in her 1996 beat-up black Saturn sedan that was not running well, checks her voicemail at 4.37, and that's the last known activity on her cell phone. A little over two and a half hours later at 7.30-ish p.m.,

A woman in a small town of Haverhill, New Hampshire, hears a loud thud outside her kitchen window, looks out and sees the Black Saturn off the side of the road facing the wrong direction. And so she calls 911.

After she calls 911, she looks out the window a couple minutes later and she sees her neighbor. It's a bus driver positioned between her kitchen window and the Black Saturn. The bus driver, Butch Atwood, speaks to the driver, offers help. The driver declines and says she called AAA.

But he knew that wasn't true because there's no cell phone service in that area even today. So he goes back a short distance to his home and he makes the second 911 call at about 7.42, 43. Police arrive a few minutes later at 7.46 and they find the Black Saturn locked and abandoned and Mara was not there. And she's never been seen again.

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So where were you at this point in your life? Mars 21. How old were you and where were you when when this was all happening?

I had just gotten back from a year-long tour in South Korea. I was an Army lieutenant, so I graduated West Point, went right into active duty status. My first assignment was South Korea. So I was gone the entire year of 2003. But I had just gotten back that Christmas. And at the time of Maura's disappearance, I was at my new duty station in North Carolina.

And that's where I was on February 9th, hundreds of miles away. Obviously, this is something that seems really out of character for her. So in the beginning, what did you all think happened? What did you think was going on?

We were clueless. We were panicked. No one knew why she would be in New Hampshire. She had just started school at UMass. It was a Monday night in February. There was no reason for her to be in New Hampshire. She didn't tell anybody. And when we found out the next day, February 10th, on Tuesday, it was just menacing.

mass chaos and no one had any idea and we didn't know what we were going to do and we were just calling everybody and it was just mayhem.

Do you think that everything at the crash scene was reported accurately? Do you feel like you have the full story from all of the witness accounts and the police? Obviously, we don't have Mara's account, but from what was reported, do you think that you have everything accurate from that moment? No, I think there are huge gaps. The first 911 caller mentions seeing a man smoking a cigarette and

And then later recants that the second witness, the bus driver, said that Maher didn't look like the photos. He had different variations of the story, you know, and then the whole timeline is kind of quirky and the official reports don't match up to the official narratives.

So that's kind of the draw to Mara's case is because there are so few answers and so many gray areas starting from 727 when the first 911 call was logged. And that's a huge point of frustration for my family because we can't really depend on any of it because it doesn't make sense. Other than the obvious, what are some of the biggest questions that you still have that you would like answered?

I want to know where she was going. I want to know why she was in New Hampshire. There was no good reason for her to just leave school on a Monday night in the middle of February, not tell anyone, drive a car that was not roadworthy, that my dad told her, do not drive this car.

I think that question eats at me the most. Do you have any theories as to where you think she was heading or why? Based on what I know, I think that she was most likely trying to go clear her head. She was in a stressful nursing program. She was in a long-distance relationship that was on and off again. I know that stressed her out. She was suffering with disordered eating.

She had a lot of pressure and a lot of that she put on herself from being the type of person that she was. But I don't know for certain. And that's another aspect of her case that is just infuriating because you just don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big one.

I think people also have to remember how incredibly young she was. She was only 21. And when you have all of these things piling on top of each other, I feel like it's just your world is so tiny to begin with that it just feels so much more. Right. I mean, Mara was technically an adult at 21, but she was absolutely still developing. I think back to when I was 21 and the stupid mistakes and decisions that I made and

Feeling like the weight of the world because there was a fight with my boyfriend and it meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. But when you're that age, everything is magnified because your frame of reference is so small. And I think that's probably the situation that Mara found herself in.

Did the media get a hold of the case right away? Do you remember it kind of taking off from the beginning or was that kind of like a slow build up to that? Initially, it was local stations. And then my dad went on national news within that first week, I believe. Then it kind of took off. You know, Maura also went missing the same week Facebook launched. Her case is often referred to as the first missing person case of the digital age.

And so once social media kind of took off and it took a few years for it to become bigger, then it's just it's kind of just grown and grown and grown exponentially since 2004. And so I've lived through that and I've seen that evolution grow.

And, you know, it has its goods and it has its downsides. But when Maura went missing, it isn't like it is today. Everyone didn't have a cell phone. Maura had just gotten her very first cell phone, a flip phone. People weren't, you know, videoing everything. There weren't ring cameras all over the place. So it's very different than it is today.

Speaking of being catapulted into the media, what has it kind of been like dealing with the media over the years? Like, how can we learn from the situation to maybe try to do something better for the next family that comes along? Well, just knowing that families that are thrust into these situations aren't given a guidebook. They're just doing the best that they can. And

Sometimes they make mistakes and sometimes they say the wrong things. They're not trained in what to say. So just giving families some grace during, you know, the tumultuous time where your loved one goes missing. And, you know, I've listened back to some of my very early interviews and I'm just horrified because I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know I was nervous. I didn't know what I was saying.

Social media is a very, very powerful tool and we definitely have to leverage it, especially for unsolved and missing cases. But you have to know when to draw the line between are we helping this case move forward or are we just entertaining ourselves?

Okay, so I just have to ask this. I imagine that there are some really strange tinfoil hat theories out there. What is the weirdest thing that you have ever seen or heard about this case? Oh, I think I've seen and heard it all from alien abduction to, you know, she joined a cult to, you

It's just endless, the amount of things that I have heard. And I get messages daily with sightings and tips. And a lot of it is people trying to be helpful. I appreciate that. But a lot of it is just

bizarro land type stuff that I just can't do anything with it. You know, I need something tangible to run with. But if you tell me you had a vision and your dream last night about Mara somewhere and, you know, who knows where, it's just like...

What do you do with that? Just respond, thank you for thinking of her. Yeah. I don't know, what color spacecraft did you see her get abducted in? Like, I need more specific things. Yeah, I know. What's the most frustrating myth or misconception that you often see repeated as fact? I feel like there's a lot of speculation that...

has just kind of taken on a life of its own where people just repeat it as fact. So

Is there anything that you want to correct the record on? Well, there's a lot and I don't have time to go through all of it, but we could spend the entire podcast on that. I'm sure. Seriously, this is something that just popped into my mind is that Mara had a history of running away, which is just simply not true. She took a trip as a high schooler, got on the T and went to Boston one time and

and came back and people latch onto that and say, see, she has a history of running away, except she didn't. What made you want to step into the spotlight in the past few years to become more of a public facing advocate for your sister?

Well, I didn't, but I didn't have a choice. So my aunt by marriage, Helena, did all the interfacing between different reporters, law enforcement, and my family, because sometimes you need that buffer. Sometimes families just aren't in the right headspace to be able to field all the questions and do all the things that need to be done. And so that's the role that my aunt Helena was in.

Unfortunately, she passed away. And I knew that I was probably the best suited to step into that role.

It wasn't something that I was comfortable with. I'm an introvert, if it's not obvious. And so it's not the easiest thing for me. But I knew that in order to continue to keep Mara in the public consciousness, somebody needed to do it. And at that point, I was emotionally ready to step into the role. And so I took it and I've just run with it.

I will say that I've gotten a lot of requests to cover her case. And I know that at least with my audience, that it's because people care. And I mean, since the beginning of the show, even before I met you, I told myself that the only way that I would ever cover this story is if the family were involved. I felt like I didn't have anything to contribute. I

I could certainly do a very victim-centered version of the story that's kind of stripped of all of the speculative ideas.

But I knew that I didn't want to just go in and regurgitate the same version that kind of ends up getting told on all of the podcasts that cover it, or most, I'll say most, for it being quote-unquote popular or whatever the reason may be. Everything that's done on Murder, She Told Us done with intention. And if I covered it, I wanted to bring something to the table that would be contributing in a positive way and not adding to the

noise that's been created around the story. Which brings me to media pressure. Now, when someone asks me, are you going to cover Maura Murray? Have you covered it? I can point them to media pressure, which I absolutely love to do. I could not tell this story better than media pressure. So can you tell me about media pressure? Where did the idea come from?

Well, it wasn't my idea. I'll say that it was Sarah Turney's idea. She also has a missing sister, Alyssa, and she is an amazing force in the true crime community, very well known for her advocacy and ethics and true crime. I met

Met Sarah a number of times and communicated with her on email and social media. And we became friends and we really did have an instant bond because we were both sisters with missing sisters. And so she approached me and said, hey, I have this idea about starting a network where I give a platform to victims and families to tell their own stories. Would you like to do season one on Mara?

And at first I was like, oh my God, I can't, what? I don't feel comfortable doing that. Like, I don't even know what that takes. I don't know the backend stuff. I didn't know what I was doing, but I had trust in

and Sarah and Sarah had enough trust in me to give me that opportunity. And I thought about it. I talked, talked it over with my family and we thought it was a great idea to kind of tell Mara's story in our own words and give her back some of the humanity that's been stripped away and all of the endless coverage of people, like you said, just regurgitating the same misinformation. So I said yes and I just went for it. And I,

I'm very happy with the result. I thought it was really well done. And also, it was just the deep dive on her story that we've been needing.

I think having people involved in media pressure that were close to the investigation was critical. I thought having people like her friend from UMass on who had never done a podcast before would give listeners a better understanding of who the person was.

instead of just thinking about it as a case and also being able to share with listeners what it feels like for a family to go through this type of tragedy. It's hard to put in words sometimes. So being able to kind of sit down and think about what that felt like, what it feels like now, 20 years later was very therapeutic for everyone in my family. And, um,

You know, it's received a lot of praise. And, you know, I was a little nervous about that because I didn't know how deep to go. And I had to cover 20 years of an investigation in eight episodes. But I think I was able to hit on the main points and correct a lot of the misinformation. I imagine that it felt very vulnerable and bearing to even just tell people who Mara was in a different way. I

I mean, it's very personal. Is that the part that scared you the most? Yeah, I think I knew that I had to be vulnerable. I had to talk about difficult things. I had to share some of the mistakes that not only Mara made, but my family made. And there wasn't any need to make any episode cliffhangers or anything like that because the story itself is just so fascinating and it's still such a mystery. But

The main idea was to draw attention back to Mara and center her in her own story, because a lot of the coverage that's happened over the years, Mara is just kind of on the periphery. And that's not right. And I wanted to share a little piece of the Mara that I knew I grew up with, I loved with the world.

She's very relatable. And many people have given me feedback saying, I see myself in Mara. And when I was 21, I also made these decisions or I also had an eating disorder. You know, the list goes on and on and on. So it was really powerful. And I'm so glad that Sarah gave me that opportunity to do it. How long did it take to do all of the interviews and research and production for it in general? Oh, I worked on it for over a year.

But I had 20 years to cover and there was logistical issues. I'm in Virginia and everyone that I needed to talk to is in New England, most everyone. And then I knew each word that I said would be analyzed and scrutinized because that's what people do. And so I took a lot of time really making sure what I was saying was accurate, what I was saying was impactful. I'm proud of it.

I think it came out beautifully. And honestly, it's been such a joy to be a cheerleader for it and just watching it be received in such a positive light. And I think also move the needle for families representing their own story with their own media. Exactly. And it's something that's not done. I mean, it's Sarah is one of the first people to tell her own sister's story. And I

I think it really filled a demand that we didn't know was there. Yeah, I mean, I hope that it inspires other people to do something like that, whether it's TikTok or creating a podcast or a documentary. I really hope that that inspires other people to want to do that as well and to know that they can do that. Yeah, because who knows the victims better than their families? Exactly. Have there been any...

tips that you know of that have been sent in? Oh, yes. Awesome. Yeah, there's been a ton of tips. And that was the second part of why I wanted to do it because 20 years down the road, Mars case is with the cold case unit. And so I never want her case to be, you know, shuffled to the bottom of the mountain of piles of unsolved cases. And this was another avenue to

to get Mara back in the public consciousness and get people talking and jog people's memories. And it certainly has done that. It's put her back in the spotlight, but in a way that your family has input in. And it's not just this out of control story. It's something that's well-researched and well-rounded. And it's about her and not just, like you said, her case. It's not just a story. It's about a person.

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Get started today with 15% off using code SHETOLD at oneskin.co. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code SHETOLD. After your purchase, when they ask how you heard about them, please support the show and tell them that Murder She Told sent you. So before you started Media Pressure, you started an initiative called Engage with Empathy. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what prompted you to start that campaign? Yeah.

Yeah, in 2022, I launched the Engage with Empathy campaign, mainly because I've seen the evolution of social media and its positive impacts as well as its negative impacts. And one of the things that stood out to me and kind of being a witness to how some of these cases unfold is that there is this gap between the people consuming and creating true crime and

and the real life people at the center of the tragedies. And it was very obvious to me that the bridge to that gap was empathy. And so that's why I wanted to raise awareness for the lack of empathy, not only in society, but especially in the true crime space where sometimes both creators and consumers are telling these stories for pure escapism or entertainment. And

And they're not realizing that the things that they say and do are affecting the people that have the most at stake, which are the families suffering with grief and loss every day. And I've experienced interactions with people who have brought empathy into our relationship and understanding.

I felt so supported. I felt heard. I felt this is what was missing. And it has helped me in my grief trauma journey. And I wanted to shed some light on what it feels like to be in my position and how people can help. I know this is a really broad question because there's many versions of this, but what does ethics in true crime mean to you?

I love that question because that's the basis of the campaign. It's what I kind of map out and outline for what ethical true crime could look like. And so the pillars of the campaign spell out care. C is centering the victim, avoiding harmful speculation, researching responsibly, and finally engaging with empathy. I think if you're using those four pillars as your guide when you're either creating or consuming true crime, then

then you're on the right path. You vote with your clicks. Do you think that true crime is heading in a more ethical direction?

Absolutely. Yeah, I've been in this for 20 years, and I've definitely seen a shift towards more ethical, more victim-centered content creation and consumers pushing back on unethical coverage. And I've seen this shift happen within the last few years, and it's been a huge shift.

in comparison to the first 10 or so years of being in this space. I mean, I feel like conversations like this are what gets people to think about what they're consuming and how they consume it and also how they think about it. So I feel like every conversation about ethics and about families' experience and hearing their voice moves that a little bit in a better direction.

Obviously, we aren't all the way there yet. I don't know if we ever will be, but do you think that there's anything that still really needs to change?

People who consume true crime and look at these tragedies and don't take anything away from them, don't have any calls to action. They're just cleaning their house, listening to a murder mystery, and then they are finished with it. And there's a whole family impacted by that that are living with it every single day. So if there isn't...

some sort of call to action or if you're not part of the solution. And being part of the solution could be as easy as signing a change.org petition or sharing a missing flyer on social media. You as just an average consumer can change

be very impactful to some of these cases that you listen to in very small ways that don't require any resources, any time. It takes two seconds to share a missing poster and things like that. So I think consumers don't realize the power that they have.

Yeah, I always tell people that even if you aren't from the area, there is still a chance that like sharing a missing poster could help someone's family. People move and you don't know who you're connected with online that might see that poster and have information that's in the back of their head that could be what people need. So I agree that I think that people have a lot more power than they realize, even if they aren't from where a case happened.

Right. And I get a lot of feedback saying, well, I want to do more. That's not enough. Who am I as just a regular person with, you know, a handful of followers? How am I going to make a difference by doing that? And I'm telling you, you are making a difference because you don't know who else is going to see that. And.

And victims and families out here are clamoring to get the one or two missing puzzle pieces to solve these cases. And you could be the one to do it by just sharing a missing poster.

So being a victim's advocate and working in this space, I'm always open to learning from families and survivors on how to keep getting better from like adapting to new language or how I ask questions or what questions I ask or don't ask. I think this was said by you. Can't offer the life of me remember where, but I think I remember you saying at one point that you disliked, I'm sorry for your loss.

Was that you? I may have said it, but I don't think I was the original person to say it. Okay. Yeah. Because I can't remember where I heard that from, but it was somebody talking about how that response makes them feel like they're kind of backed into a corner where they just have the same like, thank you. Like that's kind of the only thing that you can say. I wanted to just kind of talk about language like that and see if you had any opinions about it or phrases that get said to you that you wish people would have an awareness about.

One example is when I was talking to Jane Borowski, she doesn't like it when people call her a victim. She is a survivor of the Connecticut River Valley Killer. She is not a victim. And I feel like things like that plant seeds in people's minds that eventually move a little bit of change. So is there anything along those lines that you feel people should know?

There's several things that people say to people in my position and also people like Jane who are survivors. They're kind of cringe, but one of them is things happen for a reason. And to say that to me or to somebody in my position, it just doesn't feel good. I know people are trying to sympathize and empathize, but that's probably not the best phrase to say. And then, of course, time heals all wounds.

That one really bothers me because for families of the missing, time does not heal all. It actually seems to get worse with time when you still have no answers and no resolution. Families of the missing don't just miraculously go through the grieving process just because the passage of time. So that's one that bothers me. She's in a better place. I mean, no.

No. What does that even mean? You don't even know where she is. Yeah, I know. So things like that. And I don't think it was me who said, I'm sorry for your loss. But I do get that a lot.

And in some ways, it makes me feel like I have to comfort the person who tells me that I need to make them feel better by saying it's not a big deal. Don't worry about it or, you know, whatever the response is. But how do you respond to that?

I've never particularly liked that because it just feels like there's really only one version of a response. Thank you or it's okay. And I just, I don't feel like it's particularly empathetic. Like you said, I understand that people are trying to relate and trying to be empathetic. But I think having an awareness around the words that we choose and the phrases that we choose is

is going to eventually lead to a more empathetic world than just repeating stuff and saying things that you think should be said.

Right. And that's something I talk about too, is the difference between sympathy and empathy. And there is quite a big difference between those two. And I can say from experience, I'm not in this for a pity party or woe is me. That's sort of what sympathy gives. What I want is somebody to listen. I want to connect with people as a fellow human being. And that's what empathy brings to the table.

So you have to really ask yourself, am I being sympathetic or empathetic? And the words that you choose. Definitely agree with that. I also feel like there's a little bit of a difference between looking at people as human. You are a real person who is the sister of someone who is missing and not a character in a story. I feel like fictional is too strong of a word because I don't necessarily feel like people think of it like a movie, but there's a disconnect between

from the reality. Yeah. And that's another reason why I started Engage with Empathy so that people see me not as this character, like you said, but as a real person.

who just wants understanding, who is struggling, who makes mistakes, who hasn't always said the right thing or done the right thing because I'm human. And so when people shower me with I'm sorry's and things like that, I understand where they're coming from. But I would just encourage people that sometimes people just need a sounding board. And that's what empathy is.

Can you tell me a little bit about the New Hampshire Unsolved Coalition? What kind of inspired last year's rally and conquered? Yeah, I love the group. I hate the circumstances. Let me phrase it that way. I've connected with a lot of other family members and survivors and

And I was at Mar's 19th year vigil up in New Hampshire. And I had communicated with Jane Borowski and Amanda. And I invited them because they're also in New Hampshire to attend. And they came to the vigil and it was so great to meet them in person. It was so great to have their support. And we just started talking and participating.

I don't know how it came up in conversation, but we started talking about wouldn't it be cool if we drew some attention to some of the grievances that we've both experienced with the state of New Hampshire. And then we started talking about the Trish Haynes case, and then we got her advocates on board, and then...

We just started having meetings. And initially, it was just meetings to bounce ideas off each other. And then we decided, hey, why don't we do this march up at the AG's building? And we made it happen. And the best part about that was...

The other families that saw what we were doing that had also experienced the same grievances with the state of New Hampshire, particularly the victim advocate program and the AG's office, and they just showed up.

And so you have all these people. It was raining. It was kind of cold. I remember that. I remember you were there. And it just broke everyone's heart to see these other families show up with decades old cold cases and they're holding their loved ones framed photos. It was sad, but also very, very powerful. I absolutely agree that it was incredibly moving to see

All of these families all in the same place. And not only that, but like hearing them speak were just really powerful. And the fact that it was raining and it was such a big group, um,

I think, spoke volumes. Rain wasn't going to stop them. Cold wasn't going to stop them. It was a messy, gross day. But everyone was still there to fight for their loved ones and to fight for answers and mostly to demand change. I don't think that the things that you were asking for were totally unreasonable. The fact that people ignore your emails, just that little bit of accountability, I feel like makes a huge difference.

Most of the families that I work with, of course, a lot of them are like, we want to see the case file. But a lot of them just want to feel like they're included. If they email the detective and ask for a meeting, the detective will email them back or the advocate will communicate with them. And they're not just this forgotten part of their loved one's case.

And that was one of the main things that we wanted to express was this whole victim advocacy program and some of the challenges and problems that multiple families have experienced. You're right. You know, we're not asking for information that might jeopardize our loved ones' cases. All we're asking for is to return a phone call. All we're asking for is to acknowledge an email.

And that's something that hasn't happened. And since the rally, I can say I've had multiple emails and meetings. And so have a few of the other families that I've communicated with. And so we're moving in the right direction. And

Engage with empathy also applies to public officials in that regard of treating these families suffering with a tiny bit of empathy. And that means listen or return an email. Hey, got your email. Can't share that.

But that does wonders for families. And that's the thing about tragedy is it doesn't stop when it rains. There are no holidays for the families of the missing. And I think that message got through to the attorney general's office because they are responding. They are acting a little bit more empathetic since that rally.

I'm so glad that that's happening. And maybe it didn't move a mountain, but it started a conversation for change. And I think that that's absolutely needed. I was able to meet Jane for the first time and Trisha's supporters. Like those are episodes that can be heard on the show, but I hadn't met them in person. So it was really nice to just see everyone in one place. Yeah. And even the fact that we got a billboard and you helped give us a couple pictures of victims that haven't got the publicity that they wanted.

should have and aren't still in the public consciousness. And so we were able to get a billboard and put those faces up there to remind people that, hey, these people are still missing and there's a family agonizing in limbo. And, you know, we need to do something about it. I'm sending my aunt Tina money directly to her bank account in the Philippines with Western Union. She's the self-proclaimed bingo queen of Manila. And I know better to interrupt her on bingo night, even to pick up cash. Hey.

Sending money direct to her bank account is super fast, and Aunt Tina gets more time to be the bingo queen. Western Union. Send money in-store directly to their bank accounts in the Philippines. Services offered by Western Union Financial Services, Inc., NMLS number 906983, or Western Union International Services, LLC, NMLS number 906985. Licensed as money transmitters by the New York State Department of Financial Services. See terms for details.

What do you wish that people knew about what it was like being on the other side of true crime? You know, the side that's directly impacted by the stories that true crime creators are telling? Well, I think people lose sight of the fact that once a podcast ends or once I'm done with this interview, Mars is still missing. That great cloud over my head never goes away. At the end of the day, I'm still carrying that grief with me everywhere that I go.

Yeah, I mean, I can get busy with other things, but it's always still there. And that's why the words that people say and the things that people do really affect families of the missing because it's so fresh. And even though it's been two decades, it's it still affects me. What's something that you wish creators covering your sister's case would remember when telling her story?

That she was a real person, that she wasn't just this case file number, this character, that she is missed and is loved by family and friends still 20 years later. And that goes for all characters.

unsolved and families in the missing. I mean, I come back to media pressure and I just love how it's put her back in the center of it because I feel like a lot of it has kind of just spiraled into this water cooler, like crazy story. And there's just more to it than that. And there's a more human side of it than that. So I love that we're forcing a redirect back to her.

I mean, it's easy to get lost in the rabbit holes surrounding my sister's case because there are so many rabbit holes. And once you're in the rabbit hole, you lose sight of the missing woman at the heart of this story. So these are a few questions from my Murder, She Told Facebook group that haven't been touched on. They're just kind of miscellaneous. This is from Lori. She asked,

Do you have any advice for people who are going through that kind of relentless criticism, I'm guessing from the public, whether it's about a missing loved one or someone, something else?

I would say that you have to keep your focus. And if you let those type of comments distract you, then you're doing a disservice to your loved one. So if I totally focused on all the negativity and the misinformation and speculation, if I spent all my time thinking about that and dealing with that, who's looking for Mara, right?

I can't afford to spend my time and energy battling trolls online because at the end of the day, where does that get me? How does that serve Mara? It simply doesn't. And so you have to figure out a way to try not to go read the comments, try not to let that negativity bother you because the focus must be on the missing or unsolved person that you're dealing with.

This is a question from Brian. Do you think that Maura's case is connected to Brianna Maitland in any way? That is a good question. I know it's a rabbit hole question. It is a rabbit hole question. We'll give you the basic version of that answer. Brianna went missing not far from where Maura went missing. They both had abandoned cars. They were both young, but...

If you look at the evidence, there's not a whole lot of evidence in Mars. There's a little bit more in Brianna's. There's nothing on the surface that ties them directly together. And, you know, I've asked this question to New Hampshire State Police and the Cold Case Unit. And, you know, they have said that they have looked into it and it seems like they have not found a connection. But it certainly is curious and does make you think because, you know,

It was only a little over a month after Maura went missing that Brianna then goes missing on the side of basically a road and with an abandoned car. So I see why people are looking at it in that way. And this is from Rita. How has Maura's disappearance changed who you are as a person? Changed everything about me instantly. Yeah.

And that's another aspect that people don't quite understand. No, I had this whole life trajectory in my mind. I was 24. I was in the army. I had plans. I had dreams. And when Maura went missing, a lot of that got redirected. And I had to be there for my family. And I couldn't stay in the army and risk being deployed anywhere.

I always thought that I would stay in the Army. I love the Army, but the way that you're sent to different bases and deployed, it just wouldn't work. It's also given me a new appreciation for the people in my life. Things can change in a moment. And so I have definitely valued quality time with my loved ones above all else because you never know what can happen.

A few people wanted to know what your theory was on what happened. Well, my theory, based on what we know, is that Mara was most likely met with foul play. And my reasoning for that is that nothing has ever been found. We don't have her body. We don't have any of her belongings. Her cell phone was never used again. Her social security card, her bank accounts were never touched. Nothing's ever been found.

And also, there have been no credible sightings. Keep in mind, there have been hundreds, probably thousands of sightings, but none have been deemed credible. And for those reasons, I believe that she was probably taken in a vehicle from the scene very quickly and then met with foul play.

Do you think that that was somebody who was coming to the scene for a certain reason or somebody who just happened to be passing by who was like, hey, I'll give you a ride to...

So it's unlikely that Mara was taken by an opportunistic predator, but it wouldn't be the first time. So to completely take that off the table, I think is illogical.

One thing that bothers me is that nobody within Mars Circle has ever said, oh, we had a plan or she told me we were going to go here or I told her to meet me here. Nobody has ever said any of that. So who was this person that she knew who came and met her? There's just no evidence of that.

What's one thing that you want people to know about Mara? That she was humble, that she was kind, that she would never want my family to suffer. Mara loved her family. If that's not clear by listening to media pressure, I don't know how else to make it clear.

She would probably be very embarrassed about everything that has happened since her disappearance. She never wanted to burden anybody. But at the same time, I know that if it were me that went missing or any of our other siblings, Mara would be doing the same thing that I'm doing. So what's next for you? Well, I'll continue to advocate both for Mara and work on her investigation. I

I've also been in contact with a number of different families. And I think it's really great to connect with other families, share experiences. I love doing that. So I'll continue to do that. I've got a couple of conferences. I think I'll see you at one of them this summer. I'm going to do that. And I have a couple other projects behind the scenes that I'm working on that I'm really excited to share with everybody.

Yeah, so there's a lot going on and I'm just going to continue to keep Mara out there until we find her. Thank you for centering Mara back in their story again. I really appreciate it. Well, it's been highly requested and I think that this is the best way to get the story on my platform and then also just be like, go listen to Media Pressure. It's amazing and I'm just so happy to see it out in the world.

How can people find you on social media if they want to follow you and keep supporting you on your journey? I'm on TikTok at Maura Murray Missing. I'm on Twitter, JulieMurray2 underscore nine. I'm on Instagram at MySisterMauraMurray. Yeah, I'm not hard to find.

And then if anyone wants to help in any way, what's a way that people can help? The number one thing that I ask of people is to keep talking about Maura, keep bouncing ideas off each other. I love new, fresh perspectives, different ways of thinking of things. Just having that discussion and conversation, I think, is what propels some of these cases to get some of those answers so that we can finally piece it together.

To learn more about Mara, visit maramurraymissing.org and listen to Media Pressure wherever you get podcasts. If you have any information on the disappearance of Mara Murray, please contact the New Hampshire Cold Case Unit at 603-271-2663. You can also submit an anonymous tip online.

Both Julie and I will be at the True Crime Podcast Festival in Denver, Colorado, July 12th through the 14th. I've been to it the past two years, and it is a ton of fun, and I'd love to see you there. You can get 15% off your tickets by using the code KRISTEN, my name spelled K-R-I-S-T-E-N, at checkout. You can find photos, sources, and posters to share from Maura's case at the blog at MurderSheTold.com.

Thank you so much to Julie Murray for opening up and sharing her story. You can suggest a case at helloatmurdershetold.com. I'm Kristen Seavey. Thanks for listening.