Ep. 71: Make Sure You Have a Tag in Your Pocket
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's guest needs no introduction. He's none other than my co-host of Cutting the Distance. You get to listen to this guy every other week here on the show. In his spare time, he also likes to act as a figure model, and then he also trains cats. So if you have any cats that need trained, Dirk is amazing with cats, the felines. He's your guy. Welcome to the show, Dirk. Oh, hey there.

Feline, my feline friend, Olaf, he may even make an appearance if we're unlucky. He usually likes to crawl around on my keyboard when I get on a podcast. And, you know, it's a fitness model. Let's get this straight. I'm a fitness model. Oh, fitness model, not a figure model. Yeah, more fitness.

What's the difference between fitness and figure skating? Fitness is more muscle. Figure is more like you got all the curves in the right places, I guess. Oh, so that's not you. No. You're more muscle. No. Hey, I'm big boned, all right? So on today's episode, though, it's that time of year, right? And we try to make this podcast somewhat relevant to the timing of the year. Yeah.

Today is the 6th of February. So I feel like today is Arizona Elk and Pronghorn. By the time this comes out, though, you're already going to miss it. So hopefully I'm not the bearer of bad news that if you didn't get in for Arizona, you missed it two days ago. This will be released on the 8th. But it's that time, right? We're all, me and you, every year,

as much as we love elk hunting, as much as it's part of what we do, you're always trying to get some elk hunts, some elk tags, you know, and even outside of elk tags, mule deer, whitetail, spring bear, whatever it is, you're trying to kind of plan the season and whether you're a weekend warrior, whether you're a guy that uses one or two weeks of vacation, whether you're a guy that uses three or four, I think management of that time and making sure you're in the best place or what's available, um,

it takes a little bit of work and management and effort and studying and understanding of state systems. And, and on today's podcast, we're going to kind of go through that. Like,

How do application processes work? Maybe some reminders on dates, whether they're approved or tentative dates that you need to pay attention to as the year goes by. And then really want to kind of jump in more to our strategy on our personal strategy and how we look at each individual Western state and what we want to get out of that state and kind of how we set ourselves up so that we have hopefully an elk tag in our pocket, if not, if we're lucky, more than one.

Yeah, absolutely. And it can be kind of a daunting task too, especially each state is so much different on how they conduct their licensing, their tag applications, their licensing.

It's a lot to learn. Definitely is. It is. And, and even over the last 10 years, the evolution has been fairly quick. Um, you know, Oregon changing their system, Idaho, I used to be able five, I might be off a little bit, five, six, seven years ago, I could drive to the gas station and buy my tag at the end of archery season if I needed to go on a hunt.

Um, you know, those days are long gone. So this, the system has changed, evolved some of the things that you used to be able to just count on are no longer there. Um, you know, systems or, you know, season state systems going, what used to be, um, over the counter have turned to limited and limited have turned like premiums and, and this target keeps moving. It's almost a, a full-time job keeping up on it and where your points are. And then you throw in point creep.

into the thing where you thought you were going to go in this many years, even based on projections, and then it moves. Arizona is a crazy state where it seems like, well, there's this many people at this many points. I'll eventually go, and it's just people are coming out of the woodwork and changing the way they apply. It really makes it for...

You have to be involved in order to plan your season. I'll say it that way. Yeah. Well, like in Arizona, for instance, there's probably a lot of people out there like me who I haven't been applying in the draws at all. I just buy the bonus point every year and just I'm stockpiling points to where someday when I...

get enough points and my schedule looks like you know it's gonna gonna work because i want to dedicate a whole the whole season which the whole season's not like idaho where you get a month it's it's a couple weeks and i want to be able to dedicate um more than that i'm going to get there a week early you know scout just you know have the have the hunt of a lifetime um so

I think there's probably a lot of people doing that same thing where they're, they're banking points until one day they get like pretty close and they're like, all right, I'm going to apply this year. And then it screws up all the numbers. Yeah. And then the, I mean, we'll get into it more. Like the other, the crazy thing about Arizona, New Mexico is like, sometimes they wait for a great moisture year. So you got like the point guard where people apply, they put point guard and then they, they got like a dry year. Cause you're applying before, you know, exactly what you're going to get for horn growth. Right. And then people are bouncing out. And so it just, it's a very complex system, but we'll try to do our best.

Um, you know, it's tough with me living in Washington, Dirk living in Idaho. We've tried to hunt as much as we can around the West, but a lot of, a lot of times, some of these States, Utah, Arizona are going to be once in a lifetime. So we just kind of sit on the outside, look in, try to understand their system, try to understand what's going on. And we'll do our best to break that down for all of you.

So just like every episode of Cutting Distance, we're going to start with some Q&As. Usually we grab them from you, our listeners. You can either send them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or you can hit us up on social media, Instagram, Facebook, and send us your questions there. We'll do our best to get them in here for our guests or ourselves. But today I went a little different method, knowing we were going to do more...

getting a tag in your pocket centric type of a podcast. I went to chat GPT. I wanted to check this thing out. And I asked for three questions on how to acquire Western elk tags. So we're going to see if chat you're a millennial, aren't you?

You are. I bet you could. What's your, I bet. What's your, your birth. I bet you fall in the millennial category. Cause this is such a millennial thing to do. I feel, I think I, I'm like one year on the wrong side, but I identify in, in today's day and age, I can identify is the other one. Oh, is that right? Z or whatever, the Y or whatever. X, X, Gen X, the greatest generation. I'm, I'm crossing over into that category because you can't tell me who I need to be. All right. Um,

So the first question that Chad GPT generated, how does a tag application process work?

And, uh, I know you, you might just defer right back to me. This might be a question for myself because each state's a little bit different, right? Um, some, you can get some elk tags over the counter. So that application is literally show up at a gas station, apply early on, you get your tag. So when we call it, when we say over the counter, that's a tag that literally can be paid for in person. You go out the door and you're hunting. How many places can you do that these days?

So we're going to get into that body, but we'll just jump into it now. Let's jump into it now. So when I think, for me personally, my home state does, we'll get into that. Colorado is still like the crown jewel of over-the-counter elk hunting. They've got a lot of archery over-the-counter. They do still...

Um, what'd I say? Reserve, preserve, whatever word you want to eat. They do reserve some of their premium units, um, for the draw. So they do have some draws. And then what Colorado does is they're better muzzleloader hunts. They're better rifle hunts, early season rifle hunts kind of end up taking your preference points.

But there is a lot of opportunity within Colorado, even if you do have to apply some zero-point units. So it may be controlled, but you can apply. But Colorado is kind of the king of over-the-counter now. The Idaho went the direction they did. There are some opportunities within Washington and Oregon. In Washington specifically, all of our Roosevelt hunting areas.

I say all. The majority of our Roosevelt hunting, with the exceptions of a few premium units up around Mount Baker, up around White River, and then some of the Mount St. Helens units, there's a few of them that are off limits, but the majority of the western side of the state, you can hunt Roosevelt's over the counter every year. The same with Oregon. They have some reserved trophy units or better units on the west side, like the Powers unit. Some of these units that are more famed Roosevelt's are in the draw, but you can still hunt a lot of the Oregon coast

um, for Roosevelt's over the counter within Washington though, we do have some Eastern Washington, very limited. We have some Eastern Washington where you're hunting true Rocky, Rocky mountain elk, their opportunities. Now with that said, I would say that they're, they're a low, low percentage, low opportunities. The guys that know how to hunt, know the areas typically get it done. Um, and then without that, like

I don't want to short credit Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, New Mexico. Some of these states, and I'm not going to get into it because I honestly personally don't look into those. They have some B tag opportunities, right? Where there's some antler list stuff that may be over the counter or some antler list stuff that you can drive a year, which I would say still not over the counter, but there are opportunities to hunt every year in some of these other states. You know, Utah has some select, uh,

Antlerless, I think Spike only. Some of these states offer some units that are easier to get. But honestly, Colorado, Washington, Oregon are really your over-the-counter opportunities nowadays. Idaho still considers themselves over-the-counter, but anybody that's followed the mess that's been... I don't say mess. It's a mess. It's a train wreck. The system they've put in place for non-residents has really become...

maybe even more so of a lottery than just putting your dang name in a hat and seeing if you get drawn out. As much as I'm anti-draw, and I love the idea of everybody going out on an even playing field in Idaho, it's to the point where

I don't know. I'm torn on it. I don't know the right answer. At some point, if it allowed me to hunt with my buddies or at least have a chance to hunt with my buddies, I would love to draw. But I also love the idea right now is it requires some planning. It requires some dedication of your time to that day. It requires some of these things to get your tag. So I'm torn on which way, but Idaho is no longer over the counter. Yeah. If you've ever bought in, uh, ever tried to buy concert tickets and you get online when they first started,

First go on sale, you get into this virtual waiting room and you're assigned kind of a random number, no matter who was there first, they just assign people random numbers. So you could be number one, you could be number 5,872 or 25,000.

I hear a lot of those stories too in Idaho. And, and so if you and a friend wanted to go hunt there, um, you both have to log in separately and let's say Jason gets a tag and I don't because I have a crappy number and he's got a really good number. Um,

It just makes it really hard for, for friends and families to go hunt together, um, as non-residents in Idaho. Um, I feel like just the drawing, the drawing model would be so much more simple. It, it would free up a lot of people, people's free time. It'd just be a lot more trouble-free, um, process, um,

and allow, you know, friends and family to hunt together instead of this. It's just not a good system. And I think, yeah, it takes an, I think they're looking at it. Yeah. And I think they're looking at it pretty hard to, to, to make some changes, but we'll see. Yeah. We've been very fortunate that, you know, we usually can get one buddy into a unit if it's a DC unit, but by time, as fast as these tags are going, like you have literally minutes and you better have a low number. Um,

um, you know, and, and some of these tags are gone. And, um, so it's unfortunate. I would like to see that, that fixed. Um, I know everybody's doing their best in these game agencies. We, I would have to think they're trying to fix the system, but, um, hopefully in, in future years in Idaho, they'll get that fixed. But within that, so back to the, how does the tag application process work? Um, some States have lotteries, some States have preference points, some States have bonus points. So when you, when we talk about a state that has preference points, it's like Colorado, um,

whoever has the highest amount of points is the only one that goes in a draw. So let's say there's five tags available and 10 people have the highest amount of points that apply for that. So let's say the highest amount of points in that, that preference point state is 20, 10 guys apply with 20, but there's only five tags available. You're going to go into a draw and you got a 50% chance of drawing that tag, right? Anybody with less than 20 points has a 0% chance of drawing. So that's how your preference points works. Bonus points,

like my home state of Washington or Nevada, they are going to square your points. And that's how many numbers you get thrown in the hat. So let's say you have 20 points. You've got 400 numbers in the hat. If you have 10 points, you've got a hundred numbers in the hat. So it, it, um, it gives you, uh,

It gives you the preference of, you know, I say preference is the wrong word. We're talking bonus points. It gives you the longer you apply, the better your odds are, right? It gives you that almost a loyalty, loyalty points in a way.

Yeah. Um, and so Nevada and Washington run a straight bonus point system, Oregon and Utah run a modified preference slash lottery system. So I'm going to get these numbers wrong, but I want to say 75, 25. So 75% of the tags are given on a preference point system and 25% maybe random or 25% is like a bonus point. So then, um, they give out a certain amount of tags that way. Um,

And then there's the over the counter sales. Um, you need to understand, you know, as you go into each state, kind of what your odds are and, and that's kind of how they're going to be figured out. Whether you're a high point winner, they're just going to tell you have zero all the way up to a certain point. Um, you've got states like Arizona that I don't even know how they work, but there's always a random possibility. There's always a chance you can draw the tag, but it's, it's usually very, very low, um, until you get up towards those, those max, um, point holders. Um, and, uh,

My second question, and we answered already kind of in that. So what are the difference between limited entry tags and over-the-counter tags? So correct me if I'm wrong. I would say to describe this, most states designate certain areas within their state as being limited entry. It's usually they're trying to create a high quality hunting experience, maybe bigger bulls,

less hunters, more bulls, whatever it may be, some combination of those pressure, whatever it may be, they're creating a limited opportunity and they're usually the most sought after tags. And so what you typically get is those are harder to draw. They're more limited. Your draw odds go way down. And then on the very other end of the spectrum, you've got your opportunity tags, which are going to be your over-the-counter opportunities within that state. And I'm not going to...

we're talking limited entry and over the counter. And then there's a whole bunch in between. So you have super premium on one side. Let's think, you know, if you're a mule deer guy, the Ponce of Gaunt in Utah, or if you're an elk guy, you know, back in the day, it was unit nine, unit 10, Arizona, whatever it may be like you have your ultra premiums, and then you've got your over the counter on the other end. And in the middle, there's lots of different options. And this is where we're hopefully going to get to in our main discussion is how do you strategize that?

like, I don't need to go, I don't need to be in unit nine or 10 in Arizona. I just want an opportunity that, but it needs to be better than over the counter. Right. Or, or I don't necessarily want that. I want something that's maybe in between unit nine. Um, you know, maybe they've got giant bowls, but I don't have to work my tail off. You know, there's a sliding scale and that's, that's kind of the difference between those limited entry over the counter. And then you're the opportunity of you getting those tags. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you have to look at opportunity to like, you know, you have the opportunity to, to hunt, um,

elk or deer, whatever it is you're trying to pursue. So an opportunity rich tag, you know, whether it's an over the counter or a unlimited draw, you know, something there's lots of tags. You have the opportunity to go hunting now.

You may not have the opportunity to see a mature, uh, class of animal. You may not have an opportunity to see a lot of animals. Um, but you'll have the opportunity to get out there, pack your bow, your gun around, whatever, um, muzzleloader around and see the country and you just might run into one. So you really have to do some research and, and kind of figure out what is the best one for you. Um,

um and or or do you just want to get out there you know um you know whenever all the all the if you come up empty on on all all the other options you know maybe you still want to get out there and hone your skills so um it's all personal preference really yep yep and then the last question generated by chat gpt um how can i increase my chances of drawing a tag and like i said some of these kind of are running into each other is our first question you know our first question kind of got some answers

um there's multiple ways and we're going to dive into this um i would say number one which you may or may not have a whole lot of effect on is as soon as you get your hunting license if your goal is to hunt out west have your mom and dad start applying for you for 12 if you're older now um and you've got some time like look at the reality of drawing tags to be honest if i wasn't you know as deep as i am in some of these states like arizona utah not saying don't apply but the odds

Now, if you're okay hunting late rifle, late archery, I think you still have a shot. Like you just need to be a realistic what your goals are. But if your goal is to hunt one time in a premium Arizona unit with the, you know, with what Arizona is known for is elk hunting, you're going to probably be disappointed. You're probably going to kick the bucket before you get that chance. Right. But,

But if you're okay going and hunting, you know, a unit that maybe has broken bowls and you just want to elk hunt, like killing, you know, the most perfect put together or getting that, that same experience as like an Arizona quality archery elk hunt, um, you can apply. So apply early, um, be realistic about your goals. Um, my buddy, Robert Hanneman, I've got a chance to, to do some, you know, elk shape camps with them and, and been around. Um, his whole goal is apply for less popular units. Like just give me a tag and,

And maybe limit the people. And then I'm going to go use my hunting skill to like do the rest. Right. So you can apply for less popular hunting units. The tag, a lot of times the opportunity in a somewhat decent unit is all we really need. Um, and then you just have to participate in a lot of drawings and bonus point systems or, um,

The other opportunity is when you go into New Mexico or when you go into Idaho and they don't have point systems yet, it is an equal playing field. Now there are some odds stacked against you, but it's very level. And when you go into New Mexico, you're

you know, everybody's heard about the Gila. So I feel like I'm not blowing up somebody's spot, but maybe you don't go put in for unit 16. You go put in for a unit that has 45% draw odds. It's known to be a little bit tougher hunt that maybe isn't the premium dates, but there's just strategies where, you know, being in those systems. And then for all of you that aren't math nerds, um, the chance of you drawing a tag, let's say I've got a 2% chance of drawing a tag, um,

And let's say I put in 50 times. We all know that you multiply how many times you put in by the percentage of your draw. And I should draw one tag, right? So what that tells us is, yeah, it was a lot of very 2% draw tag is very tough. But if I put my name in the hat 50 times, I've got a, I should by the odds, draw one of those 50 tags.

It's just how the math works out. Now, does it happen? Not very much. And is it expensive? Very expensive to put in for 50 tags. But what I'm saying is the more you put in, the more you're going to be rewarded on those tag opportunities. Yeah, absolutely.

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The other option, which we're not really getting into because I feel like residents know their own state and their own systems. When you're from Washington, like myself, I do hunt my home state. I did this year. I have in the past on special hunts, but I'm always thinking outside of my own state. So I'm basically a non-resident hunter on the ground.

on 99% of my planning, but within your own state, Dirk living in Idaho, I'm jealous of, you know, guys that live in Montana, Wyoming, you know, Colorado, Montana,

I think I already said Montana, but the guys that live in States that still aren't limited, like they have it the best. And, and, um, I think over the last 10 years, Dirk living in Idaho can attest to it. Like hunters and outdoorsmen are moving to States just for that opportunity. Um, but, but it's, it's a given they've got a chance to hunt good over the counter general stuff every year where me in Washington. Yeah, I can grind it out. I've got some good opportunity, but they're not the best hunts.

Um, and then you've got people that live in Nevada. They can't hunt elk every year, which is like a weird thing to me, even being from Washington. Like you don't get to hunt elk every year in your own state. Same thing with Arizona. Same thing with New Mexico, right? There's some states where these guys have turned into you hunt with your buddy or you hunt with your buddy's buddy when they draw just so you can be out in the field and experience it. So it's kind of all over the board on, on, um,

you know, what your chances of drawing a tag. And that's not a bad system. And if you are in a state or you're learning to elk hunt, like going on hunts with buddies that draw tags or being invited or offering to be a packer, just being involved is going to pay off when you do draw a tag.

Right. Absolutely. Um, going to the hunt, I've been going to the hunt expos for, I don't know, probably 12 years now and talk to a lot of sportsmen. A lot of them in Utah don't want to pick on anybody in particular, but a lot of them in Utah and you talk to people and said, Hey, are you an elk hunter? Um,

I'd like, no, but I'd like to be, um, I have, I've been putting in for draws, you know, and, and at some point, you know, when I draw my tag, then I'm going to get really serious about elk hunting, you know, you know, but, but,

I've got eight more years or 10 more years before I get into that, that point range where I can draw that tag. So, um, I feel like a big mistake is people will kind of sit on their laurels all those years while they're trying to draw that, that crown jewel tag, but they're not honing their skills as a hunter. Um, and they should definitely be hunting these lesser, um, opportunities for big, um,

mature animals maybe but more opportunity to get out there mix it up with some elk learn some skills learn how to learn how to you know maybe the the way elk act you know the learn the biology learn the country learn how to move move learn how to hunt that way whenever you finally do get that that really good tag then you're going to be feeling a lot more confident in in your skills

Yeah. Yeah. Build that foundation. You, you go out and try to, you know, put the top floor on the building without a foundation. It's just, you're, you're setting yourself up for a disaster and, um, you know, get out with buddies, you hunt on your own hard units. Um, you're going to set yourself up for a lot better, you know, chances when you finally do draw that tag for sure. Yeah.

So we spent a little more time than we normally do on those questions. But once again, you have questions for me or my guests or Dirk or his guests, feel free to email them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. I know Dirk's got a little hotline. Yeah, you can call in. You can call the super secret hotline, the CTD hotline, if you will. Phone number is 208-219-7701. Leave a message and...

And if you leave a cool question or a cool story, I'll play it on my podcast. Maybe Jason can play it on his, but we'll try to answer or just kind of address it. And you have three minutes to record your question or your comment, and then it's going to cut you off. So make it quick. Keep it short. Keep it short. Yeah, there you go.

So, yeah, we're going to jump into our discussion, jump in a little bit more about important dates. But before we get into our discussion, Derek, I got some, I'm going to hit you with some quick questions. And this is all personal preference. There's no right or wrong answer. I feel like you're going to judge me, though.

You're always judging me. This is a judge free zone because I, we've said it before on here, not, not to, not to get all sensitive, but like everybody does it for their own reason. Right. You've been hunting for, I'm not, I don't want to date you for 40 plus years. Probably. I don't know. I'm not that old. Jeez. 35 plus years. Yeah.

Well, I've just talked, maybe not hunting, but out in the woods thinking around. Oh yeah. Um, my whole life. So, I mean, you've been doing it for a long time. You've accomplished certain things you set out to do, and you may have a different goal set than, than, than the guy that just picks up their bow or I don't, are we allowed to use adult onset hunters? I think it's acceptable. Absolutely. These adult onset hunters, like they're, they're specifically out there to fill their freezer with organic meat. So they, I mean, any height or hair that's legal, like that may be their goal. Me or you, like I'm going into this unit that took me 20 years to draw and

And I'm going to hold no, yeah, I'm going to eat the thing. Don't get me wrong, but I'm going for the maximum amount of horn on their head, the maximum amount of age on their body. Like you're going out there for some specific things. So they can't get this wrong, but I'm curious, like from a, from a user's perspective, would you hunt, would you rather hunt a marginal? And when I say marginal, you might run into elk every three days or here, beagle every three days, or would you rather hunt the best unit in your state every seven years at this point? I want both.

Can I say that? I want both. No, no, no. I want to hunt elk every single year. So, and, and that's what I do now. So, um, and sometimes like the 2022, I hunted one of the, arguably probably one of the worst units in Idaho to hunt and last couple of years, rifle hunting too. Um, you know, so I want to hunt every year. I want to have those opportunities to hunt every year and I'll sacrifice, uh,

opportunity at seeing big animals just so I can get out there and then try to use my wisdom ship, use my hunting skills, use my scouting, my time on the ground to, to find the places where I will have success. Um, but I don't want to wait every seven years to, to hunt a really good unit. Um, but I do want the opportunity someday, uh, to hunt, you know, a really great unit. There's a, there's a unit elk unit in Idaho. I would give anything to hunt, but

Who knows? I may not, I may not ever draw that tag. You may not get it. It's,

it's tough and that's where hopefully when we get into like overall strategy you're trying to accomplish both of these things at the same time you try to keep that maybe marginal unit every year but maybe use other states um for a quality pitch or a change up you know to your normal system so we'll get into that a little bit more um how would you define opportunity we talked a little bit prior to the podcast like what is opportunity is it just having your bow in your hand or is it

what would you describe as opportunity? You know, everybody talks about quality versus opportunity versus, um, but, but I think opportunity is very vague and what people would consider that. Yeah. I think it's a pretty broad, um,

broad definition by it depends on who you ask. And then maybe through the lens that I see the world or you see the world or whoever's saying it sees the world. To me, opportunity, depending on where you're at, I feel like a good opportunity hunt would be, I can have the opportunity to hunt, number one, of course, but I'm going to have the opportunity to see animals. I'm going to have the opportunity to get away from people.

and have a good hunting experience. I'm looking for a good hunting experience overall. Now it doesn't have to have giant animals running everywhere, but maybe there is a nice one there somewhere. And I actually seeing animals, um,

different game departments may see that different. They're like, it's an opportunity for you to buy a tag and to go hunting. And that's kind of how they see it. Um, you know, the state of Idaho, I'll pick on them a little bit. They have always said, you know, we're a opportunity state. We're not a trophy state by any means. Um, but I, I kind of feel like they use that, that term pretty loosely. Yeah. There's some of these places, um, you do have the opportunity to buy a tag and go hunting, but you may not have the opportunity to like, um,

see very many animals or whatever, depending on the area, of course. So you have to, that's where I guess,

doing research on your own and like, like getting kind of nerdy and like breaking, breaking down each area that you think you might, might want to hunt and try to like figure in the numbers to figure out if it's, it's something more than just being able to have a tag and like get out outside and go hunting. I'm like, everybody likes to get, get out there and enjoy the hunt, but you also like to enjoy the meat, the harvest, you know, whether you, whether you're, you're killing a, an animal or, or maybe, you know,

have the opportunity to try to kill one, you know? Yep. Yeah. And I like to use extremes to explain the example. So you could say,

You, the state could say they provide an opportunity if they take every archery elk hunter in the entire state of Washington, put us in the tiniest little mudflow unit next to Mount St. Helens, right? That's technically an opportunity, but it's going to be the worst hunting experience of your life. Or you can say, I'm going to give one lucky tag holder and he's the only one that can hunt the entire state of Washington. Like those are both opportunity, but it's a completely different experience.

I think what, you know, and the only reason I'm trying to define this is because this word opportunity gets thrown around a lot. Like it, it's a very minimum. It's just a, a tag, a chance, but like in reality, you really, you know, maybe even the best hunter has a 0% chance of killing anything because of the odds they're stacked into. When I think of when I'm going out, when I talk personally about opportunity, if I hunt hard,

five to seven to 10 days, I'm going to get one to maybe three opportunities, right? Maybe more shot on the lower on the end. I'm going to get, I'm going to get a chance and, and there may be a two or three day stretch in there where it's a ghost town or I haven't figured the dang place out, you know, but eventually that takes a little work, maybe a little more hiking, maybe a little more dedication to an area, uh, maybe getting up early or whatever. But if I, if I can hone in and use my skills and, and figure out like, I want an opportunity at an elk, whether I blow it, whether the setup gets screwed up, whether they win me, uh,

Um, whatever it may be like, that's kind of how I determine an opportunity. Give me a shot, maybe one to three shots over a seven to 10 day period. And I'm going to be happy. Yeah. Yeah. That's opportunity. I think that's a fair, fair analysis. Yeah. Um, and, and this is a little side question kind of went away from the quick fire. Um,

And I don't know. I mean, COVID gets a lot of blame for this and it's, it's obvious, you know, where is us both being in a, in a business? We, we track it. We seen it. We seen tag numbers. We could watch Colorado put out a data set, like first time tag applications skyrocketed that first year of COVID. Do you feel like this current pressure for, for, for the allocation of big game tags or, or like the ability to even get them is ever going to subside? Or do you think it's here to stay? I know,

And I always struggle with this and I should have did some research on the data. I'm a horrible podcast host because of this, but we always, you always hear like hunting's dying or hunters numbers are going down from this point to that point. I want to know, is it tag numbers have to be falling at the same rate or somebody is lying to me, you know, like, or we, do you feel, or do you think there's any sign that, that this like request, you know, this, this demand for these tag numbers is ever going to go down or we just, is it stuck and it's here to stay?

Man, I think, I think right now it's so popular, so trendy to come to the West and hunt, which I get it. Like I see the allure, I participate in it. Like I love hunting, um, like in the West.

And I think that is probably at an all-time high, the popularity. Like Idaho, like you said, 10 years ago, you could buy, if you wanted to go hunt Idaho archery elk on the last day of season as a non-resident, you could show up and buy a tag at the gas station. Now, they sell out in the first quarter.

Couple hours of the first day in December, the year, the December before the season, uh, the, the, before the hunting's the next fall season. Um, so I don't know if there's, I, I don't know. I feel like trends kind of come and go, um, popularity. I know back in the 80s.

certain heydays of hunting different places, um, used to be kind of like huge, you know, um, popularity, but then something happened. Maybe it's not as cool anymore. Maybe those people don't care about it anymore. Maybe that, that population aged out and aware the younger generations, not backfilling, um,

But they say hunter recruitment's down across the United States. And I think, and they always say, well, it's not necessarily the people coming out West to hunt. It's, it's the young people in the other parts of the United States, um,

you know, there's, they don't, they don't have the kids, you know, getting into hunting, you know, going hunting with dad, grandpa, grandma, whoever, mom, whatever. They don't have those, those kids backfill in numbers as hunters every year. Um, which I definitely can see that. Um, and it's tough with kids hunting. I mean, you're, you're competing with instant gratification of video games, uh, social media, uh,

whatever you want to watch, digital videos, movies on demand at any time, anywhere. You can, you have so many options of like instant gratification for kids these days to where hunting is,

let's just, you know, we all know we're all hunters. It's hard. You know, it's the days can be long. They're physical. The weather can be super hot, super cold, somewhere in between, but it's not definitely not an instant gratification. You have to put in some work and then reap the rewards. And I think with just society today, it's, it's really hard to compete with that. So overall, I think numbers are falling, but I feel like,

the little, the, the saving grace may be once people grow up and they want, they, they see what life has to offer. And they're just like, dude,

I'm tired of spending my vacation time sitting looking at four walls or whatever. I want, there's more, got to be more to life. And they learn about Western hunting or, or hunting in general, wherever they're at. And then maybe that adult onset hunter that they can, maybe they're, that's the new answer. Like that's going to perpetuate hunting through the future. But I feel like at some point it may, it may not be quite as popular. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I, you know, I talked to my dad about, you know, they used to travel to Montana and do a little bit of out-of-state hunting, um, you know, but I feel, and not saying this is bad, but like, I feel like a lot of guys with the, you know, the internet, social media, everybody out East is now applying, right. Or they, they see how easy it is to just plan for this and just go do it. Um, you know, so they're getting their group of three to four buddies together and they're coming out West, making it like a yearly or an annual thing. Not, like I say, not saying it's wrong, but

or they're able to apply from their, you know, their desk and whatever it is, North Carolina or, you know, New York or wherever it may be. Those guys can, can sit and apply. They draw a great, if not, then they put the same amount of money in the, that we did. And, and it's just, it's, it's,

putting, like you say, we may be losing some of those numbers or that recruitment, but we're getting maybe some, some pressure on the Western system from, from, you know, the guys back East that love to hunt. They're just more willing to come out now. Um, so it is, I don't necessarily know. It is an issue with, it makes it tough for a guy that selfishly wants to get my own tags, but I don't know if there's a, a fix for it or not.

Um, you know, and I, the last thing I want to do is wish like ill will on the economy. Like, oh, I wish people would just struggle more so I could, you know, and I would be in a good spot so I could hang in there. Um, right. So yeah, I, I don't know what it is. I don't know what the right or wrong answer is, but, uh, yeah, during that COVID bubble, I mean, people had, I think people had a lot of extra money maybe in their pockets from all of the, uh,

the Biden, Biden economics or whatever. Um, you know, they had that extra money in their pocket. They're like, you know, I've always wanted to do go elk hunting X and right wherever. And they buy the gear, they, they try to get the tag or they do buy the tags. And I think they, that, that, I think that you'll, that's where one of the big upticks has come now with things are, the economy is a little different now. Um, things are expensive. Maybe families are having to cut back here and there and, and,

you may see a downtick, you know, in some of those numbers. But I feel like a lot of people make that a priority once they've tasted that fruit, man, they want to go again, they want to go hunting again and they'll make other sacrifices. They're not going to buy, you know, maybe three lattes a day. Maybe they'll cut those out of the old budget. Yeah.

Yeah. So I've got a, I got a crazy idea. I'm going to see if you are in support or you'd be unsupportive of my idea. Well, most of the time, most of the time when you got a crazy idea, I have to like raise an eyebrow. I know. And I'm going to be a hypocrite for saying it because right now I'm doing the opposite of what you would do because it would force you to choose. But, um,

What if all States, all United States, you know, all 50 of them in the union got together and said, you know, we're all going to join up because opportunity is so thin. We're going to let you hunt one elk within the 50. We're going to let you hunt one mule deer within the 50. We're going to let you hunt one white tail deer, but somehow, and I don't know how you'd manage it or how you do it, but there was a pack that I'm going to call it the United States hunting pack. And it's going to just limit like,

Dirk wants to apply for Colorado elk and he draws it, then he's got to return his Idaho tag this year. Or he draws an Arizona tag like he's out of all the others. I don't know how you manage it, but would you be in support of something like that where it's getting more back to what do you need in your freezer to survive and not so much as an entertainment, I guess. And like I said, I'm a hypocrite right now. I've hunted elk in two to three states for the last 10 years. I've hunted mule deer, white tail, whatever it may be. But do you think...

Hunters would support that. Would you support that? The, the, have I not thought it through all the way? Like, is there a way that if it could somehow magically happen, that it would be good for everybody's experience and, uh, opportunity, man, this, this, this reminds me of those, uh, little, um, little game. My kids used to play with me. Um, would you rather, um,

Would you rather eat a piece of dog poop or have a bird poop in your mouth? I mean, you know, some ridiculous, like, I don't want either one of these things. Like, this is terrible. It's almost like one of those kind of questions. Would you rather questions? Um, yeah.

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This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

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somebody drew their dream hunt in Colorado or Utah, you know? And so I was trying to think of the positives that could come out of something like this. And no, and as you were talking, I was kind of thinking of that thing, like, man, and I can see like people like having that same mindset, like, Oh, I'm going to really try to go to these certain places and then overlook these other places that are really good. Especially if after a couple, three years and not having a lot of pressure, um,

Yeah. That may just satisfy, you know, I'm not, you know, it's not like a body count every fall. I want to go, um, yeah. Yeah.

tag as many elk as I possibly can, but it's more of a experience and you feel like, okay, if I can have three elk tags, it's a game of odds, right? One of those hunts is going to be really good because of timing, populations, lack of other hunters, area, terrain, whatever it is. One of those three are going to be really good compared to maybe the other two. But if you had to pick one,

throughout the whole, the whole gamut and focus on that. Um, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent against it. I'm not going to say no bullshit, but I'm going to, I, I'm not, I'm not against it. I mean, that, that could open up some cool opportunities.

I just see like me personally and not saying I'm doing it because it would benefit a lot of guys. And I don't know how you do it. Like if the application you select, like I'm going to apply and drop down this time, Utah, or you select, you know, and you, how you do it. But let's say, okay.

I don't know how, if you had to pick one and you can only apply for one to start with, like, then it would be just a big gamble of where you thought everybody else was going that year. You know, like, Oh, Arizona has got a great horn growth. I'm going to sneak into Utah or I'm going to go to Nevada or I've got enough points in Wyoming or Montana. Like you would, I feel like people would slip in with a lot less points. Um, and, and, and it would really, you know, if you assume everybody applies for all the same Western States would, would put,

80% less pressure on the units. Um, you know, everybody's at a different point level, but it would ultimately clean itself up. I think relatively quick. And like I said, I don't know how, how the hell it would ever work. Like, how do you fund the agencies and how do you do the split of money and, and all of that. But I, I, I,

I like the thought of the idea that like I would hunt, I would love that system if it gave me a more quality hunt every year and I got my one elk hunt. But like I say, then I'm becoming a little bit selfish again. Like I need to make sure I get my one elk hunt and this system may have some way where, Hey, guess what? You applied for some mediocre unit in Wyoming the same year that everybody else did the same strategy, you know, and, and you're out.

Yeah. I don't know. I just, I've always tried to think like, how do you fix a log jam? And I don't know if I've got the right answer, but just an interesting idea, but you had a good segue of in your little spiel there on like, just coming up with an overall strategy. Let's talk about that a little bit before we, we wrap this one up and give some key dates that people need to remember. Me and you both. I don't, I don't even want to count how many States we apply for what? Eight, nine, 10 States across the West, maybe more, maybe less. Oh,

for elk and deer yeah less than that for me but i know you between us maybe yeah somewhere right in there so i think i apply for seven or eight being from washington because it sucks so bad here yeah

Um, so, so going into that, Dirk, tell us a little bit about your strategy. And I think we have similar strategies where we've got a couple of States on like, you know, you fortunately have Idaho as your, your standby. You can always hunt there. Um, and then you've probably got some States on what you'd call like more of your opportunity rotation. Then you've got some States more on, on your,

you know, quality rotation and how you manage that year to year. Yeah. So yeah, for the long, for the long game. So I'm going to play a long game for like a once in a lifetime type of hunt, you know, that, and that's my Arizona. Yeah.

Um, tag. So, um, someday, um, I'll apply. Um, I've got enough points to, to draw, um, a subpar unit. Definitely. Um, I, I could probably hunt some of those later season, late season archery, late season rifle kind of hunts like you alluded to earlier, but that's not what I'm, I'm looking for. I'm looking for that experience. I'm looking for, um, um,

The, the hunt where there's lots of bulls bugling, I can chase bugles all day and just like, you just keep going over the next ridge and you never know what you're going to see. You may see a giant, you may see a five point, but it's just like the quintessential Arizona hunt. So that's my, my one long shot hunt. You know, someday I'm going to draw that.

Um, hopefully. And then I got some, the stuff in the middle. So those are like your Wyoming's Montana's, you know, it's going to, you can't hunt those every year as a non-resident, but every few years you can, you can get lucky, draw a tag to go there. And, and I, but I don't apply typically for their premium units. What I'm applying for is just their general, uh, over the counter, not over the counter, but their general units, uh, to where I'm, I'm going to have more opportunity to draw a tag in the, in a pool of, um,

opportunity there to hunt more often, you know, whether every two to five years be able to go to those places because they're beautiful. They have a decent population of animals and you never know, you might see a big one. And then there's the every year thing, you know, which like you said, I'm fortunate to live in Idaho, which as a resident, there's plenty of over-the-counter opportunities. Like every year I can go down, buy a tag for whatever unit, you know, there's way more

opportunity over-the-counter units in Idaho than there are limited units. So I'll be able to hunt, you know, I'll be able to hunt elk, deer, whatever here in Idaho. I just have to narrow my scope of where I want to go. Some units, like I kind of alluded to earlier, are very tough, you know, a lot, a lot of animals in them, but other units are really good. But typically when you find a unit with a lot of animals and a lot of tags, you'll find a lot of people too. So it's kind of like that balancing act.

Yeah. And I'm in the same boat. I look at Arizona as my once in a lifetime. I'm a little behind Dirk. I'm at like 12 or 13 and the way it's kind of running away. Maybe I'm going to have to settle on something that's not your once in a lifetime type hunt because I don't know if I'm ever going to catch up to it. And then Utah, I look at at one time I was I was going to kind of miss the lower end units and try to get into just a mid tier unit. You know, some of those

Some of those, you know, premium units, I'm not spoiling anything for anybody. You know, the San Juans, the, the, you know, some of those units, like I'm just never going to catch up to them. I could get lucky. So I'm looking at Utah as like a quality. And then I've got Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, California,

um oregon you know washington kind of on this rotation for my every year um worst case scenario if anything ever fell through um i would go to colorado i'm also the nice thing about colorado is it has so much over-the-counter opportunity i'm able to kind of keep my points as i'm going there so i'm kind of building up for a decent rifle hunt or a decent muzzleloader hunt you know something that's a better unit outside of of just our general archery over-the-counter stuff um and every

We talked a little bit earlier about having to stay up on it and educated. One thing that's like weighing in this year is you watch Wyoming make a change between their special and general, right? And so maybe you've been eyeing like, well, I can get in a half year earlier under special, but guess what? Now you better want to pay $2,000 instead of 900 or whatever it is exactly. So they're changing. You hear about what Wyoming did on their oil tags. They went to 90-10, where right now their deer and elk's not 90-10. The day Wyoming switches their...

Explain to our listeners what an oil tag is because you kind of threw me off the first time you said oil. Okay, so a once-in-a-lifetime. So your sheep, your goats, your moose. It's an acronym. Yeah, acronym for once-in-a-lifetime. Most states have them as once-in-a-lifetime. Some states you may be able to have like a waiting period and jump back in as a resident. But for non-residents, even in Washington, like if I draw a moose, sheep, goat, it's a once-in-a-lifetime type tag. Okay.

Wyoming a couple years ago switched to a 90-10, and by 90-10, 90% of the tags have to go to residents, 10% can go to non-residents. Well, that skewed the numbers quite a bit from what the past draw odds are. So let's say right now it's taking us three years to draw the tag that Dirk wants, just a general elk tag. If they go from 80-20 to 90-10 at now, and this is exact math, it's going to take you six years with the same exact candidate pool.

So like there's things like that where people that may have 10 or 11 points, they're just getting close enough to a unit they want. Like they're starting to now strategize whether they're going to jump earlier, maybe shoot for a lesser unit because if they don't shoot for a lesser unit and do that before the change, they've now just bumped themselves down into way below the unit they can get into right now. So like as hunters and people that are into the game, like we're following that all the time.

all the time, um, trying to make sure that you're getting the most out of your points. And, and it just depends. Like sometimes I'm willing to like sacrifice what I thought was going to be a good quality hunt for an opportunity before something like that.

That comes down the pipeline. Um, you know, Idaho, I love, I always apply for Idaho and New Mexico, um, zero points on their controlled hunts. I feel like it's a level playing field. I've got no more, no less, um, opportunity to the next guy, but then there's strategies within that. Like if I've already got a pretty full plate for the, for the fall, I may swing for the fences on Idaho controlled deer and elk, right? Like I want, if I'm going to get a tag, I'm only going to change my plans for premium. Um,

Um, where if, if my, my, my schedule is looking real thin, I may decide I'm going to go for the, you know, a controlled hunt Idaho. That's got 10% draw odds, which is pretty good, you know? Um, so there's strategies within that same thing within New Mexico. Um, yeah, you can, you can set up every HeLa unit and have a 2% draw odds when you get done, or you can start to look for some mediocre muzzleloader units and maybe have a 30% chance of drawing a tag. So it really just depends, uh,

on what you want to do, what your goal is, and you have to kind of just manage appropriately. And like I say, me and Dirk, I think I can speak for both of us, we're always going to have that guaranteed opportunity

tag whether it's colorado for dirk it's idaho for me it may be western washington might not be the greatest hunt but i know i'm going to get a hunt elk every year and then i'm using the draws to kind of supplement maybe something mid-tier and then something like really high tier um if the if the draw odds are in my favor i guess at that point yeah and there's one thing we didn't talk about yet is is like state raffles too so almost i think almost every state has a raffle like

You, you put it, you buy raffle tickets and for, you know, some kind of like in Idaho, they call it the super hunt. Right. And you can apply, you know, there's, there's three or four different things. It's like, maybe you apply for those once in a lifetime, you know, a moose, sheep, goat, or it's, or it's elk or it's, or it's an any animal. Like if you draw the super tag, you could hunt.

any of those. Um, so it just depends. So it's just a raffle. Um, you got Hunt Expo, they do a bunch of raffles there. So, you know, then there's auctions, you know, for the big money guys that want to throw a bunch of money. I mean, I can't do it, but, uh, people can maybe get a governor tag or whatever. So there's, there's those options too. But, um, but for the, like, I've never done any of those raffle tags, which I should, you know, just,

you know put a tiny little bit of money in there because if you if you don't win you if you don't play you can't win right so maybe i should be putting in for some of those raffle tags um yeah i mean i we all know people that have drawn them i think yeah you know landowner tags are options you know some of these states do landowner tags we've we've used those a few times ourselves when we we've had horrible luck in the draws and couldn't line stuff up so um

whatever your butt, you know, and, and, you know, sometimes I hate that, that money gets involved in opportunity, but it's the reality. And, um, you know, if you're set up to do it, by all means, somebody is going to hunt with that tag regardless. Right. Um, you know, so I've, I've never felt guilty about that. Um, you know, if, if,

it's, it's my lifestyle. It's what I, you know, I don't go drink on the weekends. I don't chew a can of Copenhagen every day. You know, it's like, it's my lifestyle choices so I can save up this little bit of money and, and, you know, not, not get into me and my wife's budget and make it, make it work. But, well, it's funny. There's, well,

Well, it's funny. I've used this job I used to have. Then when I first started going out of state to, you know, the first time I went to Wyoming, I came back and one of the guys at work said, well, how much did that cost you to go? I'm like, well, the tag was, I don't remember back then. It was like 500 and some bucks. And he got fuel, he got your food, you know, and la la la la. And he goes, oh, it must be nice. Like, like I was, had all this.

extra income to throw around. But it's like, well, if you break it down, because that particular guy, he drinks a lot. Well, if they cut back on like one of the two bottles of vodka a month that they buy, he could have paid for that hunt. You know, it seems like we can replace our vices maybe with something, maybe a good vice, like change your vice, like from

from coffee stand lattes or a lot of extra drinking or whatever, partying at the bar. You can take that money and shove it in your pocket for tags and elk hunts and deer hunts and now you can afford it.

Or he didn't, he didn't see you behind the scenes eating top ramen every night for dinner for six months. So you could afford to go. Right, right. Exactly. Top ramen and deer meat. No, it's all priorities. We, we, we probably over prioritize this compared to a lot of people, but it's important to us. It's, it's part of my identity. I have to be out in the woods chasing something. So we, we do put a lot of priority on it. And, um, to close this up, Dirk, we're just going to, you kind of left me to this. You're like, Hey, that's your, your thing. So I'm just going to kind of walk through, um,

some important dates and deadlines if it's a state that interests you. And one thing that I'm not going to mention in this, which Dirk is probably going to kill me after this, is certain states will have second...

or leftover tag draws. I'm just going to say pay attention to those states if there's opportunity because a lot of times people like forget about the initial stuff will pop up and there's always opportunity. I think multiple states offer leftovers. You can either redraw or sometimes it's on a first come first serve basis. So there there are limited opportunities. I would say it's it's getting tougher to get than it was in the past, but there are those opportunities in addition to to the applications or controlled hunt. So I'm

Arizona, like I said, Arizona is actually the day we're recording this podcast, February 6th deadline, I believe at 5 p.m. Mountain Time. So by the time this comes out, I apologize if you forgot, but you missed elk and antelope. Next up will be Montana. Its deadline will be April 1st for deer and elk.

Colorado will be April 2nd. So you get one more day to pony up for Colorado. Colorado is one of those states where you just have to buy a small, I hope I don't get all this wrong. This is going off years past. That's why you should always check with the most up-to-date fish and wildlife regs. Colorado, you have to buy like a small game license. You have to have a license in your pocket in order to apply. Um,

Montana, you have to front the money for the entire big game combo, which I think is approaching $1,300-ish for the big game. Deer and elk separately might be $9,000. Deer might be something to that effect. I'm going to get them all wrong. Utah is end of April, April 25th. You've got to be in for deer, antelope, elk, bison, moose. They do all theirs and their oils at the same time.

Then we go into Nevada. You get another week off May 8th. You need to be in for Nevada. Bonus point system. Nevada requires you to buy a license and then buy each species point.

um, Oregon is then May 15th. Um, once again, it does have some over the counter opportunities. So if you do apply, um, you don't have to at least, uh, I believe by your license again, there, Washington, you have to buy your license. It's draw is May 22nd. We're super late. And then Idaho, like always pulling up the, the rear, um, June 5th, you need to be, um, applied, uh,

in Idaho so that you have zero time to ask for your leave or get physically prepared for that hunt when you find out that you drew. Cause I think they let you know, like what mid July for non-residents. It's crazy late. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, um, so those are just some of your important dates. Um, like I say, if there's certain States, you know, go confirm those dates, but that just kind of, you know, you're applying anywhere from, like I said, today, Arizona, um,

kicks it off. Wyoming, I believe was due on the 31st for elk of January. So it's over Idaho over the counter stuff is already done way back on December 1st of the previous year. So coming up, we've got, um, you know, we got New Mexico, Montana, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington, Idaho. Um,

are still all out ahead of us from the time that this podcast will air. And you got a little bit of time after Arizona kicks things off here in February. So the next time you'll have to pay attention is the, is New Mexico be coming up next on March 20th. And then everything's, you know, pretty quick in the spring, you know, April, May after that. So those are kind of the dates.

Like I say, come up with your own strategy. If it's 100% straight opportunity, you don't care whether you're hunting horns or not. Like there are a lot of cow opportunities out there too. And hopefully the fish and game departments are doing their job right. And, and, you know, it needs to have cows taken out for the right reasons. But yeah, I don't, do you have anything else to add Dirk on what you look for? Like anything we may have forgot, like, is you head into a, into a winter trying to plan your hunts that you think about? No, you know, it's really helpful is if,

Because my memory is about as long as my pinky. So it's important to...

maybe go through those, those different states that you're interested in and write down the dates and important dates, you know, when, when the, um, application opens and when it closes and put that on your, um, calendar, um, my, on my phone calendar, that way it pops up. I'm like, Oh, I can start applying for Arizona. All right. Oh shoot. I better tomorrow is the

the last day to apply, I better get my, my act together and get it in. Um, because it's easy to get busy with life. I mean, you and I live this stuff and there's been a couple of times over the years where I'm like, Oh shoot. That was like, I think last year I asked you about Colorado and you're like, um, yeah, that was like, uh, last month. I'm like, yeah, I was a real nice friend there. I really helped you out. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Phelps for, uh, you know, reminding me. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I see how it is. Oh, yeah. Team player. Trust me, I'm like two Arizona deer points behind my elk and antelope because they throw it off in its own little category later and I've missed it multiple times. But yeah, it's tough to miss. And I think...

I think there are some apps out there. I don't even know which ones do it. There's got to be an app out there that reminds you on draw deadlines or like you. I'm the same way where I'm just going in. I take these dates I just read off to you guys. I've got them all plugged into my calendar and a week or two ahead of time because I'm telling you what, there are states where you try to plan the last day and their systems go down or servers and some of them just don't allow you a redo. So

If there's any technical difficulties, I want those to happen, you know, seven, 10 days ahead of the final day. I had an app on my phone that I got like in 2013. I think I paid the guy a dollar. It was something ridiculous cheap and he just started out.

And you went in and you picked the states that you had points in and stuff and you, and you would get reminders through the app and text messages. Well, that was like four phones ago and I delete, you know, you know how you clean out your phone, you delete apps like, ah, this stupid thing, whatever. Well, I still get text messages on the states at the time that I had points in or I was applying in, but the new stuff,

It doesn't remind me. So, um, and I don't remember the name of the app. Um, so it was like, man, if I really, I really wish I remembered what that app was, but it was like point, point hunter or point save point something. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah, there's got to be an, like I say, I don't use them, but there's got to be something out there. But yeah, that's kind of our strategy, kind of our management of trying to get some tags. And yeah, we appreciate all of you listening in. And if you have any questions for us, once again, send them over to us, ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or hit Dirk up on his hotline, which he's going to give us right now.

now right now and let me oh i didn't have you you should have been you're prepared earlier that's all right i i my fingers were faster than you were talking but it's uh 208-219-7701 kind of like those infomercial guys on uh on the radio and um and also if you just want to you know get on there and

and leave a message and say how good Maverick diaphragms are versus Pink Phelps ones. That's cool too. I mean, I love hearing that and I can always forward those to Jason.

Just for that, I'm going to put that phone number on a Craigslist ad for free firewood in the Boise area. And I'm going to destroy your line for that little. No, I'm just kidding. I've never done it to you. But we appreciate you all. We appreciate you all. Good luck. And you're hunting for tags. There's two seasons now. You hunt for tags and you get to hunt for the animal later. So good luck, everybody. Appreciate you all and take care.

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