Ep. 67: Long Range Hunting with Jon Pynch
01:15:34 Share

Need parts fast? O'Reilly Auto Parts has fast. Need them now? We've got now. No matter what you need, we have thousands of professional parts people doing their part to make sure you have it. We're O'Reilly Fast. Just one part that makes O'Reilly stand apart. The professional parts people. O, O, O, O'Reilly Auto Parts.

There's nothing like snook hook sets at dawn or catching a tarpon in the moonlight. Find your next fishing trip made easy on fishingbooker.com and experience the magic of the Sunshine State or any other destination on your fishing bucket list. Book a blue water adventure in search of sailfish or go snapper fishing with the kids. With over 6,000 captains and trips to choose from, planning your next one just got a whole lot easier. Download the Fishing Booker app

on the Google Play or App Store or visit them online at fishingbooker.com to book your trip today. You ever get that feeling, the walls closing in, the concrete jungle suffocating you? You crave some wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe in a spot all your own. Well, head over to land.com.

They've got ranches, forests, mountains, streams, you name it. Search by acreage. You can search by location. You can search by the kind of hunting and fishing you're dreaming of. Land.com. It is where the adventure begins.

Welcome back to Cutting the Distance. I met today's guest in my booth at the Pacific Northwest Sportsman Show probably eight, nine years ago. He was a quiet guy. He didn't say a whole lot. He was kind of sitting in the corner and I knew he was good at long range hunting and I was kind of getting into it so I kind of forced him to talk to me. It's not exactly how it goes. He's a great guy, just very, very quiet and I was getting more into my rifles, my loads, figuring out how to get all my equipment dialed and he was a great resource. So John Pinch is my guest today. I don't

Thanks for having me, Jason. It's good talking to you.

I don't know if I spend a lot of time at home because I've gone so much, but yeah, my wife and kids are awesome. Yeah. How's everything going? Yeah. No, it's been going good. Been pretty busy traveling a lot the last, like November, December was real busy. So it's actually been really laid back just past New Year's here. Had a pretty fun Christmas, been hanging out with the boys and just laying low, working on some stuff at the house. It feels pretty good. So kind of revamp and getting ready for this next year, making some plans for next

business and shooting. And I've done landscaping for a long time, kind of phasing out of that slowly. But I think this year is looking pretty good to hopefully wrap that up and focus, continue to focus more on the shooting side of things. So it's going good. So that's a great segue, John. Like what does a typical year for you look like as far as hunting versus shooting? Like what's a year in your life look like?

I fly by the seat of my pants a little bit more than some of my buddies where they plan out their whole year starting in probably, let's see, into this month, January, the shoots start kicking off internal Hunter and PRS, which is the precision rifle league or precision rifle series. And, um,

Um, there's shoots all over us, Canada, you know, went to South Africa this year to shoot one. There's some in Norway, they're all over. So pretty much you could shoot almost every weekend, especially through the spring and early summer. Uh, the heat of the summer kind of moves some of the matches around. Like generally there's not a lot of Arizona matches in the middle of the summer and stuff like that. So I usually am kind of, if I have an open weekend, um,

you know, there's not a fam, a big family event or, you know, I try to get to the kids' baseball tournaments and stuff as much as possible. But as long as I got an open weekend, I'm usually booking a flight somewhere and hitting a shoot somewhere. So I try to, I need to shoot as much as I can. Hunting trumps competition. So the last couple of years, we had hunts booked over the precision rifle series finale. And,

I took a little wind out of my sails for really hitting the season hard. No, and I couldn't shoot the championship. Um, so I shot three, four matches instead of, you know, eight to 12 or some guys are shooting 15, 18 matches a year, which is, which is a lot. That's a lot of flights, a lot of travel, getting guns ready and everything. So, um, I try to shoot as many shoots as I can. Um,

schedule permitting and hopefully I'm doing more in the next few years the way some of my schedules changing but then hunting trumps all that so some of our hunts we've got dates booked and planning for next year other ones we try to keep a pretty loose schedule we've hit multiple cancellation hunts the last few years

Um, just went up to Kodiak last minute, just on a DIY thing a few weeks ago. That's when you, I think you initially texted me or do a podcast. It's like, I'm heading out on a plane tomorrow to a little drop camp. So I was trying to kill a sick of black tail. So, um, but yeah, kind of some of that stuff's just, like I said, last minute, um,

but that's kind of the way schedule looks. I'm still working, got family, kids, we got baseball, we got, you know, fun stuff going on like that too. So. Gotcha. So, so real busy, you can shoot as much as you want. And then do you, do you tend to focus on PRS more so or NRL, or do you have to hit like a certain amount of events to qualify? Like how, how do you juggle that as well? Like there's all these different events or maybe just like, you know, single events. Like how do you, how do you, how do you play the game? I mean, it's kind of,

kind of personal preference. I've done Interol Hunter probably a little more. I wanted to...

uh, there's a, in internal hunter, there's, there's a open class, which your gun can weigh 16 pounds or less. So you can run whatever you want up to 16 pounds. There's light class, which is 12 pounds or less. There's factory, which they have a list of factory rifles. You can't mod them at all. You take it out of the box, a Tika, Bergara, whatever their list is. And then there's teams where you two guys can sign up and shoot teams. And I wanted to be the

First one that won every class. So take an open gun and when the overall shoot, not just first in that class, take a light gun and when the entire shoot and then take a factory gun and beat all the custom rifle guys for the entire shoot and then do it in teams. And so I actually shot in a hundred Farragut cause I did, I did that. So that was kind of just an internal goal of mine. And so that's what I did more. So I probably, I think I shot four PRS matches and,

um, last year, five and ended up shooting. I was able to shoot the finale this year. Um, dude, I got six of the finale, so it was good. It's a top 250 guys. And so I shot, I had a good match, but I had one bad stage that, you know, it takes nothing to drop, to drop a few spots. So it's, uh, there's some killers though. There's a bunch of really good, I have a really good friends in that, in that, in that group and some guys that are super dedicated to it. So, um,

Um, it's yeah, just kind of, I kind of Evan flow like this year. I want to hit PRS a little bit more. It's, it's a, it's heavy, more purpose-built guns where in or a hunter is more hunting type of guns where, um,

The PRS is, you know, it's a, you're shooting a 20 pound, you know, six, six, five, 25 Cal gun, not much recoil, lots of movement, real fast shooting, which I'm real good at. But it's the pinnacle of shooting. Like it is the best shooters in the world. And I want to shoot that more just because it makes me better. Interval Hunter is a different, it combines glassing, position building, it combines a lot of different elements that I love.

Um, but just purely shooting PRS is, is, yeah, it's difficult. It's tough. Cause there's target acquisition and NRL, like you have to spot your target, get your own, you know, all of that, which adds into the game, the game. Um, so I want to, I want to rewind just a little bit. You would never say this, but it was internally in your head. You basically took a gun that you could buy off of a shelf and then went and beat the, some shooters shooting the best, most fancy guns that you could build.

Yeah. Yeah, I did barely, but I did. So, I mean, you would, like I said, you're, you're very modest, humble. Um, but, but that just kind of for all the listeners lets you in the kind of how good John is and he'll never say it, but I mean, to take a gun that's, that's literally a stock gun and beating, you know, custom rifles. Um, it kind of just hints to, to how good you are behind a gun and,

you know, your, your dedication, your time, you know, you're always shooting, always reload and always tinkering. And so it goes a long ways to, to kind of just explain, you know, the level that you're at. And so I, I think that's, that's worth stating. So we're going to, we're going to jump into some, into some listener questions now, like we always do.

These are a couple of question and answers we've pulled from social media. If you have questions for me or my guests, please email them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or hit us up on a social media message or social post. So our first question today comes from Tyson Lundahl.

Um, how do you go about judging, um, for wind down range and over terrain features? And I know this is probably like the trickiest part of everything we're going to talk about later. Um, you know, like there isn't wind on your ridge. What are the signs or what are you picking out out there, um, to make your wind call, which, which I, I don't know your answer, but I'm going to assume that, that up and down is, is pretty easy. Yeah.

Um, for the most part, but left and right is where the whole game and the art comes in, but go ahead and explain like what you can use to, to figure out when. Yeah. So, I mean, so there's the, there's the art, um,

and the science of long range shooting and wind is the art, right? There's, it's never fixed. It's, you're never on a flat plane. There's ups, there's downs, there's left, there's rights, there's Eddie's, there's box canyons that swirl. So, so there's the science, you know, there's a lot of,

There's a lot of things that do a really good job with crosswind jump and every variable you can imagine. And then there's the art of it. And so there isn't a hard and fast answer. You pretty much, you look at anything you can get you. If there's grass, if there's trees, if there's anything in the air, if there's rain, if there's fog, anything that you can see.

You take into account, obviously. I mean, it's kind of a kind of a no brainer. Some people say, oh, you watch train when water rolls. And yeah, that's that's good. But that doesn't also cover water doesn't roll uphill. And so if there's a big updraft, like, I don't know, like, so I've had some big updrafts. If I'm say I'm on a valley, I'm up here, I'm shooting over here.

more it's actually more if i'm up here and this is a long valley running out and there's like kind of hills on this you know here and here and there's a valley coming at you and the wind's coming at you if i'm shooting across to those with a strong wind in your face you'll get a i'll get a big updraft on this hill that wind's ripping up this hill and it'll hold my bullet up and so those are all things that are so hard to take into account um

it kind of leads into another, I think the most important thing that you can do as a shooter. And it's, um, it changed a lot of my, I don't know, philosophy is the right word, but, um,

uh, gun, gun build choice, weights, calibers. Uh, so I can spot my own shot. You have to see where your bullet lands. And a lot of guys don't, a lot of guys shoot, the recoil is gone. They rely on their buddy. And if they're solo, they're out of luck. They shoot and they hope they hit it. And, um, if you can spot your shots, uh,

stuff happens you can make a bad wind call you can do anything but if you can spot your shot generally you can measure that and make a quick correction and get a second round impact yeah that's not ideal i'm just saying there's stuff happens and no one's ever right 100 of time on wind and so if i'm on a canyon and it's calm where i'm at generally you can hear wind or you can see when you know something's going on um

If it's that far, if you're two canyons away, generally you're talking like 1,000 plus yards depending on the train. I'm going to recommend cutting the distance. I'm not the long-range guy. I've shot as much as anybody or more, and I'm not going to – I'm never the guy that backs up to another 100 yards, so I shoot 1,000 instead of 900, and I'm not going to post that on social. We've made a lot of long shots. I'm never going to – people ask how far. I just don't say. I don't –

I, I, there's elements of long range shooting that I, that I love it, but I also, I hate the social media killed us at 1400 yards of one shot. I was like, well, you couldn't do that. If we went out and on steel, you'd miss that steel a lot. I know you would. Cause I've shot more than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so you take anything. I mean, generally you can hear wind, you can see it, especially evergreen trees are real easy to read big fir trees. You can see the, the, the, the direction of the wind's hitting the backside of the trees, relatively calm. The front, the branches are kind of peeling around and then it's just experience. Hey, is that a seven over there? Is that a 15 mile an hour? And then if it's dead for 300 yards, it's,

um, you don't have wind until you hit four and 500 yards. So you can, we're getting a little deep here for a podcast, but you can, you can run your brackets out like,

When you shoot a bullet, the biggest deflection is right out of your gun. If you take a bullet off course out of the muzzle, it's going to be way off course downrange. If it doesn't go off course till 300 or 400 yards, if you're protected along a clear cut tree line or it's just you're in this some sort of you're in the bottom and it doesn't get into the wind until you shoot out the top.

Then you're cutting your wind drift down. The first 400 yards don't see wind. And maybe the last 300 yards see a 15 mile an hour. So you can kind of break that down into brackets of what it's going to do. All that comes from experience. I wish I had like this really good answer. You do this, this, and this. It doesn't exist. It's an art. It comes from a lot of practice and taking everything into account. What I see a lot of guys do is the moment happens. It's quick. Half the time they forget to dial something or just they don't level their gun.

Go through your checklist. Make sure your range is perfect. These are no brainer things. Make sure your level is perfect. Take a second to slow down and make a really good thought process on when study the trees, study the cobwebs floating, anything you can see, uh,

And don't be afraid to hold wind in the comp world. We talk about like missing on the pro side. So beginners always miss downwind. They never hold enough wind. And so missing on the pro side would be missing upwind. If you're going to, if I'm going to miss a plate, I want to miss upwind because you rarely over judge wind. It's just like a natural tendency. People get scared to hold that much. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things we could, you know, we could talk about this forever, but

I think just slow down and be very aware. If you're not comfortable, cut distance. Generally, if you're looking over a couple of canyons, you can get to the next ridge. Just cut the distance. Get to 600, 700 yards. One of the things, especially on wind, that I like to do is in my ballistic calculator, if I think it could be a 5, but then it could be a 10, I want to go look at the difference. How much air is in my

my calculation. And if it's more than what's acceptable at that range, then I need to get closer, you know? And so it's like, how confident am I that this is a five or a 10, or if it's only 500 yards, it's not going to matter. Right. But if it, if I'm taking a shot that seven or 800 and it starts to move that bullet, an extra, you know, whatever it might be, I'm like, well, that's not, that's not ethical, you know, in my opinion, then I need to get closer or not take the shot. And so I do a lot of that. Like, here's my envelope. I think it

It could be as low as three. It could be as high as 10. And then like, where does that move my bullet? And can I compensate for that? Am I still going to hit vitals if I'm at either end? And can I, you know, split that? Like you say, it's all an art, what you're comfortable with. Um,

And I'm going to go this kind of a good segue to our next question from Charlie Smith, who's my buddy or my good time hunting partner. Um, you guys, you guys just banter online is always gold. Oh yeah. And this, this, this banner kind of comes into this question where it's stuff that we all talk about behind the scenes. But when you,

you don't want to necessarily knock long range hunting. But so Charlie Smith's question is, do you think long range rifles are ruining hunting? Which is a fair question. And when you say ruining hunting, is it ruining our season, shortening them? Is it taking too many animals? But like, what's your opinion on that? Because it is something that I feel like we should have to be able to answer if you're going to shoot. And then the other thing is what is long range hunting defined as, which I don't even want to get into right now, but like, in your opinion, is this whole long range movement, is it, is it affecting hunting and to what degree?

Yeah, I mean, I don't understand how you could say it's not. How is technology not? I mean, when I started archery, I mean, I shot archery for years. Years ago, a 40, 50-yard shot was a tough shot. Now my bow's got a slider and you can stack arrows at 100 yards. And you look at muzzleloaders, right? You look at these crazy muzzleloaders that are shooting smokeless powder, some of the states. I mean, I think those rules are changing, but there's muzzleloaders 500, 600, 700 yards. And so...

Yeah, absolutely. More animals are dying. People are getting better at hunting. There's so much information like this podcast and many others and internet forums. So yeah, I think it is. I think states, I think I worry about a lot. Hunting is,

I've had the opportunity to go on some high-end hunts that are out of my budget because of a buddy I have and experience both sides of things. I mean, I grew up over-the-counter hunting. I live in Western Oregon, grew up in Western Washington. So we're hunting rosies and blacktails, parked in a trailhead which used to be three or four trucks. Now it's 10 or 20. And so we all see the same thing. I see how money –

is affecting opportunity big time. Um, it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It just is what it is. Um, and,

And hunting is, yeah, killing stuff with the rifles easier than it used to be. I think, unfortunately, fish and game departments get funding from tag sales, and they're not going to cut numbers, and I wish they would. I think there needs to be less opportunity. I mean, you look at Arizona and the way they look at hunting. I got a lot of buddies down there. They apply their whole life, and they hunt with other people because they draw every 5, 10, 15 years, but they hunt every year with a group.

just because tags are so hard to get. I don't like that, but there's the reality of supply and demand, quality. I don't, and it's also a different value. Some guys like to go out and shoot a fork and horn. I want to, like, I love the idea of finding a big buck. So I wish there were

I wish there needs to be less tags in some areas. I mean, it's a sticky, people are going to get fired up. But yeah, I think it does. It makes it easier in some ways. I don't like the guys, I already mentioned this, that are like puffing their chest up because they shot so far.

the braggadocious of that kind of stuff bugs me. But it happens in everything. I shot this at 55 yards with my triad bow. I shot this at 120 with my compound. I shot this at 500 with a muzzleloader. And I shot this at 1500 with a centerfire. It's the same thing across the board. Everyone's getting better. Everyone's getting deadlier in technologies. Incredible. So, I mean, I don't know what the answer is. Yeah, no, I think we both know. And I'm on the side where, yeah, we've got –

and I would, I say we, I, I, I should be careful to put myself in the same boat as you, but like we have the ability to shoot, to shoot like long range, but I take more pride in that. I snuck into that bucket, 150 or a hundred. Yeah. I had a long range rifle, but,

I was still hunting, you know, and, and I just, it seems like you just have the skills necessary to take the long range shot if you need to, or a followup shot. But, um, you know, I just assume see a trad guy kill at five yards, you know, or, or a compound guy kill at 10, you know, whether they can shoot it a hundred or not is a different story. But to me, that's the challenge. Yeah.

A hundred percent. I mean, we all want to be ethical and competent. I loved archery hunting. I shot more bulls and deer with my, well not deer, I've shot more elk with a bow than I have with a gun and shot quite a few deer. And I liked it because it was challenging. When I, back in the day, I decided my, whatever I was shooting with, my 30-odd six or 300 wind bag or whatever. And then I was done. I was like, it's not fun to shoot that gun at 200 yards. And so I was geeking out on the archery side.

And then found out about long range a long time ago. And, um, and it just was interesting. It was fun. It was challenging again. It was fun to make wind calls. It was fun to learn that art of it. And so, um, I, and then I started hunting that way and it is fun. I mean, like this year, pretty short kills. I got, uh, I shot, I killed a big white, my biggest white tail, uh,

65 yards. I was working, it was working these does, it was in this thick stuff. I just worked in on it and then, you know, shot my sit cut a couple hundred, I don't know, 250. Um, just a lot of closer range stuff this year. Um, it's, is it easy? I think it's easier to shoot an animal at four to 600 yards than it is at 50 to a hundred most of the time. Uh, cause it's calm. I'm prone. Like I'm not going to miss that shot. And, and so, yeah, I don't know. I mean,

it's a, it is a debate and I totally get it. I'm not one that's going to defend it. I don't like when guys pick sides, like compound guys or muzzleloader guys. We're all, we're all doing the same thing. Um, game is, it's the sports change. And I know it's been weird. The last three years watching, watching the money and everything change. And,

It's a lot. It's all of it. It's all there. It's social media. It's everything, but it's, it is changing quick. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. I think that if, if we're going to be willing to do it, we just have to accept, or like you said, make changes like Arizona, that our seasons may shorten because our takes going to be higher. We're going to, you know, because of some of these things and, and technology advancements, but then I don't want to be a hypocrite and say that we shouldn't have them because I'm also using them because I,

Otherwise, if you're not, if you don't have the ability, you're behind everybody. And so I, I think it's just a personal decision. I like the, the art and the science and the nerdiness behind it and getting a setup that you're just like,

you know super confident in you know for me like 500 yards like i'm gonna put this bullet inside of a two inch circle at 500 like no question where before you know growing up i had a three by nine loophole very exterior like oh just aim to the post you know that's all you ever heard on those duplexes like 500 no matter what gun no matter what caliber um and then put it in the back my gun shoots so fast i put it in the back to a thousand yards yeah and then the one thing that really drives me nuts and i'm gonna throw some of my own family under the bus you know because they had

custom guns built because we were out doing it and maybe taking longer shots and you know i can like my dad you get like 10 bolts down the barrel and be like all right build my dope chart and show me how to dial this thing you know and i'm like well i don't know if like you don't have a coach there or like understanding all this and like my uncle going on a deer hunt um this year like

He never chronoed it. He went off of like somebody else's load data for a different gun. And I'm like, Oh, I should be good. He's like, he's like, I should be good. Like 800. Right. With this. I'm like, no, you don't like, you haven't confirmed anything besides a starting point, you know? And it's the same, it's the same guys that get their gun boresighted sportsman's the night before season and think they're ready to go hunt. And it's the same guys that buy a bow the week before season. So it's the same, it's the same mentality. There's,

Yeah. It's, I don't know. Yeah. I know there were guys out there. We don't geek out like we do. Yeah. And they think that just buying the equipment gets them there, you know, and it's like, no, there's a lot more to this. And so I'll, I'll diverge. I know Charlie brought that up more as a joke, but it's something that we talk about when I say, when we say ruining hunting, I wouldn't say it's ruining it, but it's definitely affecting it in a way. Yep.

I mean, but what is it? Like, how has Onyx not changed it? How is everything we do, like the application services and mapping and everything? I mean, everything's changing. Yeah, I mean, you could throw us under the bus, like easy to use calls. So now you have more people that can use. And so, yeah, I mean, I'd be hypocritical to say this, but it's just something I think is a...

as a general group of people you know hunters we just have to think about and make good decisions moving forward um i think i think just being aware of it having the discussion everyone's using technology the better trucks are farther cutting gears lighter you can go in deeper you stay drier you stay warmer everything we do nutrition is lighter uh peak put 40 grams of protein instead of 10 like mountain house you see like everything's better right so you can you can do um

I think the discussion and just to be where you can't get mad about it, but I think you gotta be open to potential, uh, tag cut numbers and being not drawn as much. Um, I think that's ultimately where we need to go. I don't know that we'll do that because fishing games relying on the sales. We'll see. It's, and then now we've got wolves. Yeah. Yeah. We won't get into that long range. It's just in case I see a wolf. There's no ethical distance for a wolf. So take that. Yeah.

O'Reilly auto parts are in the business of keeping your car on the road. I love O'Reilly. In fact, the other day, I'm not kidding you. The other day I went into an O'Reilly auto parts looking for a part. I needed a different thing that wasn't really in there. You know, only like tangentially related to what they carry.

They did not have it, and the dude told me specifically where I would go down the road to find it is how nice they are. They offer friendly, helpful service and the parts knowledge you need for all your maintenance and repairs. Thousands of parts and accessories in stock, in-store, or online, so you never have to worry if you're in a jam.

They'll test your battery for free. If you need your windshield wipers replaced, a brake light fixed, or quick service, they'll help you find the right part or point you to a local repair shop for help. Whether you're a car aficionado or an auto novice, you'll find the employees at O'Reilly Auto Parts are knowledgeable, helpful, best of all, friendly. These guys are your one-stop shop for all things auto, do-it-yourself,

You can find what you need in-store or online. Stop by O'Reilly Auto Parts today or visit them at OReillyAuto.com slash MeatEater. That's OReillyAuto.com slash MeatEater. We've all seen plenty of gadgets and fads come and go, but here's one product that stood the test of time. Seafoam Motor Treatment. Lots of hunters and anglers know that seafoam helps engines run better and last longer.

It's really simple. When you pour it in your gas tank, sea foam cleans harmful fuel deposits that cause engine problems. I'm talking common stuff like hard starts, rough engine performance, or lost fuel economy. Sea foam is an easy way to prevent or overcome these problems. Just pour a can in your gas tank and let it clean your fuel system. You probably know someone who has used a can of sea foam to get their truck or boat going again. People everywhere rely on sea foam to keep their trucks, boats, and small engines running the way that they should the entire season.

Help your engine run better and last longer. Pick up a can of Seafoam today at your local auto parts store or visit seafoamworks.com to learn more.

This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

There's also millions of wide open acres chock full of different landscapes, meaning the hunt in one county is often completely different from just a few counties over. But what really makes South Dakota the greatest goes way beyond just hunting a colorful bird. It's the pursuit of something more like the camaraderie that awaits all kinds of hunters from all walks of life and partaking in South Dakota tradition over 100 years in the making.

It's about taking the greatest shots and watching your dog work the greatest fields in the greatest lands, carrying on the greatest heritage and making the greatest memories. So what are you waiting for? From the rush of the flush to the stories at the end of the day, experience a thrill like no other. Learn how at HuntTheGreatest.com.

So this one may just pertain to long range, and I'll let you put the parameters on it. So when do you take... And this comes from my buddy Cody Wilson out of Wyoming. When do you look at things like azimuth and bullet, like spin drift? When do those things come into play? Is that only when you're looking at really long range? Maybe explain azimuth for people that don't understand. For Coriolis, yeah. You take a heading that generally referring to Coriolis, in fact, the rotation of the Earth. I mean, that's, I would say...

I don't want to say never, but pretty much never. That's not going to affect anything. Spin drift. Absolutely. I mean, you'll get, I for sure have your spin drift on in your calculators. If you're zeroed, almost all barrels are right twists, which means if you're, your zero is dead on left to right, you're going to hit right at distance because your bullets rolling to the right. So yes, absolutely. Use that spin drift is going to be, it's going to be,

It depends on the caliber and the twist. You know, it can be four or five, six inches of a thousand plus or minus. And it's definitely moving your bullet. So, yes, do spin drift Coriolis or your azimuth. Not near as important. I'd say in hunting distances, it's nearly it's irrelevant. Okay. Relevant.

That would be my opinion. Some people may argue that, but I don't really know anybody that would argue that a whole lot. And I might misquote you. I know at one time you had actually told me to sight my gun in at 100 a little bit to the left to kind of account for that out to what I would consider my hunting distances, right? And it kind of just...

Now, you just said keep it on your calculator, which I don't want to discredit that at all. But for a guy like me that's not going to shoot at an animal unless it's a follow-up shot ever past 1,000, I want to say we were like an inch, maybe inch and a quarter left at 100, which doesn't hurt me at 100, 200, 300. That's a lot.

I would never say that much. I'm usually, if I'm left, I'm shooting mills. Now I shot in the way forever, Bolter grade. I'm not going to go into it in mills, MOA discussion, but I shoot mills now cause it's in the comp world. And I do like a lot of aspects of it for, I think there's some benefits to it in the hunting world as well. But so each click in a mill is roughly 0.33, 0.36, whatever. If, if I can't land on my zero, I,

If I'm going to be either left or right on my zero point, I'm going to choose to go left. Yeah, I'm never going to go an inch left. That's a lot.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that, but if I'm going to choose either left or right, I'm going to choose left and just kind of have a mental note of that when I'm calculating spin drift. And we're talking in the hunting world, you're right. It's not near as important. I mean, five, six inches at a thousand, that's a chunk of, but you know, in your three, four, five, six, 700 yard range, you're talking a few inches. You're still in the vitals. It's going to be more of an issue judging the wind.

um than spin drift but if you're dead calm and like i'm trying to shoot a like a two inch steel target at six seven hundred yards you if it's dead calm you are going to miss right you're gonna miss right so you have to take that into account on tiny little skinny targets yeah and then i i actually ended up avoiding the going left at all plans which has probably saved me it sounds like because i would have been too much i just went back to zero and then like you have my spin drift calculator on yeah i think that's the smartest yeah yeah

Back in the day, I mean, when I started, I'm kind of getting old now, I guess, but there wasn't spin drifting calculators. There's everybody just knew like, oh, these bolts kind of go right. So I'm going to zero a little left. I mean, and then you just kind of had that mental note. So it's progressing. Like you get the new, like the Kestrel 5700 with applied ballistics. Like they've got crosswind jump and spin drift. You got every calculation at Coriolis. They got everything in there. I mean, it's a, you know, and those apps are on, on your phone as well. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Well, that's going to kind of wrap it up for the listener questions. Once again, you have questions for us here at Cutting the Distance. Please email them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or send us a message and we'll do our best to get in. So now we're going to kind of jump into my discussion on the guns and the equipment. Okay.

but before we jump into those conversations about the guns and components, which everybody loves to talk about, right? Because you can control that with money, but you can't, but let's talk about what, in my opinion really matters. And we'll see if you agree is the things that you can't buy with money, you know, whether it's reading the wind, you know, the art of it, a bunch of trigger time, you know, hundreds of thousands of rounds, like what defines a good long range hunter versus a guy that goes out and buys a $10,000 rifle. Um,

That equipment's no good if you don't have this other stuff. So what do people really need to know in order to start pulling the trigger at long ranges or be effective when they do? Yeah, I mean, obviously the list is super long. I think you need to be interested in it. It's got to be somewhat of a hobby. I think you could make the argument that

And we, and I do do this. We train people and stuff. We take guys out that have more money than time. You know, some of these, some of these bigger, um, some of these guys that go on pretty big hunts are their business guys that make a pretty good income. And so they don't have a lot of time to go shoot on the weekends and they're not going to travel around to comps. Their time's more valuable than that. So, and it's not their, it's not their deal. So, um,

You could make the argument that in that generally what was, what was rifle shooting 300 yards and in type of a thing, 400 was a long shot. You could make the argument that three to 600 yards is,

with a good setup gun and limited knowledge is nearly automatic. And so I talk with a lot of guys. It's like, man, I'd really like your limit to be in that six, six 50 range, unless the wind is howling and maybe less. I think when you get past that five, 600 yard range, you re you need to, it's gotta be a hobby. You gotta be interested. You gotta shoot. You can't go out and shoot four or five rounds a year. Um,

Your form, your follow through, your trigger pull, everything is not going to be adequate to do, in my opinion, to be ethical, you know, to make a 700 yard shot, even have the wherewithal to think about, okay, the thermals are coming down this hill, a little bit of left to right. I'm going to, you know, just all the basics to stay calm and

in a situation. I see guys get so keyed up when they get in and they're getting ready to take a shot that all the thought process of the small things go away. And I think you can get that by shooting more. You go up in a clear cut and shoot. I tell guys to go take five rounds or 10 rounds and go shoot in a clear cut, shoot some rocks at 500 to 1,000 yards. And don't just shoot, shoot, shoot. Oh, I hit it. See if you can hit on the first round or see if you can get real, real close because that's all that matters. If you hit on your fifth round, it's irrelevant. Like the guys that shoot

new world record at 4,200 yards and you shot 17 rounds to me. That's it's, I guess the equipment's interesting to get a, you know, whatever. I don't want to, it's, it seems dumb to me. Yeah. Close first round impacts. I don't want to throw the L word around on that. You know, like you said, one shot finally hit at 17, but like, I don't want to say, and this is going to,

I don't know if we have any extra, you know, extreme long range people here, but like at some point you hit it one out of 17. Yeah. It's still a fee and you still accomplish something, but was there a little bit of luck involved finally that you didn't hit the last 16, you know? And so I, I just like you. Yeah. As a disclaimer, uh,

There are, they're doing, the world records are now, they're doing like three consecutive shots, cold more plus two at 2,532. Like that's impressive. Like I'm not going to discredit that we, you know, so anyway, disclaimer, the whole world record thing is to me is stupid, but whatever. Yeah. And then like growing up around here, what we considered long range growing up, you know, we have a pretty good range here where I grew up. You know, a lot of guys that were bench dress shooters here at the, at the PL range, they would always do, they would shoot,

at a target maybe 100 yards off the deer or the elk that they wanted to shoot in a clear cut get the wind right and then they would bring their gun back over which just like you said like you want to make that first shot kill but maybe I

I don't want to bring up ethical or moral either, because if they're shooting seven, they know what their drift is based on this spot shot. And then a lot of times those deer elk wouldn't even get bothered by it, you know, at the muzzle break or, or a can or whatever they may have. And so that's kind of how we grew up. That's what I thought long range shooting was. And then as I got into it, I'm like, no, I want to make the right,

corrections up front and then I'll take my shot at the animal and then have a spotter and then make a correction if I need to but yeah I go that's not a bad that's not a bad as funny as that may sound to some people that's not if you're shooting a long range and you can't cut the distance you

And you trust your deer and stuff. It's not a bad idea to take a shot like that. If you can swing over, you got a rock face or something you can shoot 100, 200 yards to the left or right. That's, I don't want to discredit that at all. If you've got something funky, you're like, Hey, I'm going to take a test shot. All right. When it calls on or it's off, make correction to kill the animal. Like that is a decent, a decent idea to keep in your head if the conditions are real sporty. Yep.

I know what you're saying, though. Yeah, there's an art to it where you don't want to. It's almost like you're using a cheat code like on an old video game. I don't want that information. I just want to try to do it. But I also feel we owe it to the animals that if there's any doubt in your mind that this might not work out how you think it will, then that might be a good option. And you had mentioned, and maybe you've changed, but on a windy shoot or even a competition, you've maybe changed

not waste one, but you may test to see what the wind is so you can clear the stage after that first shot. Is that... I thought I'd heard you once, like you may... You used to do that maybe that you would... No, maybe a misunderstanding. So the only...

The only time any of the top guys will do anything is if, and this is rare, I can, I don't, I might've done it once ever, but I'm always trying to hit the target. The idea is to hit the target, read where you hit the target, move your impact to the center so you can stay in there as the wind changes. But every once in a while, there's a couple of stages. I wish I would've done this. You'll get a, maybe a skyline target at 800, 900 yards where if you miss, you see nothing.

Nothing. And so you'll see guys go up there. They think they've got it. Boom, miss, boom, miss. Now there are three, four misses deep where, so sometimes on a stage like that, you could put one in the dirt, like at the base of the T post and then go to the target. So you're dropping one shot instead of two, three or four on a skyline target. Generally,

targets were usually somewhere where you can either see trace or you can, you see bullet trace going left to right, or you can see where the bullet actually lands. But it's, it's a pretty rare, it's a pretty rare occurrence when you would burn one of the dirt, but you could, there's been, I think I've done it once. I gotcha. Yep. Misunderstanding there, but yeah, that makes sense. Just, you know, try to spot your shot on the target and then make your adjustments. If you, you know, micro adjustments at that point, um, to stay on or be centered. Um,

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So let's get into the equipment because it's what everybody wants to talk about. Everybody wants to talk about gear. So like gun selection where for me, I made the decision to hunt with multiple guns. So I've got a big long range gun that I don't like to pack around. I went with a kind of a do-it-all mountain rifle and seven short action ultra mag and then just recently got a six and a half PRC as it seems like some of these. So that's kind of my...

My, I either have a three 38 edge. I've got the seven Psalm or I've got the six and a half PRC. Now, um, when people are going in, you know, some random person going in, they're going to, going to get a long range gun built. Um, what factors do you think should weigh into that gun? Um, and then how do you go on about like starting with a caliber and then going from there?

So I've always been a component first. I usually pick my bullet and build a gun around that. And I've been a big burger bullet fan for a long, long time. I've recently actually shot some solids I'm like, and we'll see playing with some different things, but been a burger bullet fan for a long, long time. So yeah,

I'm the same as you. I have a six, five PRC. I like a 30 cow and a big three 38. I haven't shot my big three 38 near as much as I used to. Mostly I'm six, five and 30. And, but I kind of like the idea of, you know, a few different golf clubs in your bag. So for different, different hunts, different weights, like, so I'm going to pick my bullet. If I want to shoot a two 15 hybrid,

I'm going to kind of see it's a 30 Cal. I'm going to see, do I, what do I want to shoot? Well, I want to shoot good brass. Generally that's been Lapua the last handful of years. Now we have ADG. Um, we've got Peterson, we've got alpha, we've got some pretty good brass selections that aren't your typical normal was consistent, but it was soft. Um,

Um, you know, then you've got all your Hornady and federal stuff. That's not, not to the quality of some of the premium brass brands. So I'm going to pick my brass. So I'm going to go lately. It's been Lapua makes 300 Norma. 300 Norma has been really easy for me. It's bought my shots. Good. Um, speeds are decent. I'm not a speed demon. Like a lot of guys, uh,

Gosh, a lot of guys are into horsepower. They're into fast cars. I get it. It's fun. But I am a slow and steady wins the race in the gun world. And it took a lot of shooting to get to that. And every guy that gets into comp shooting doesn't understand it until you shoot a while. And you realize that the faster, crazier guns tend to be a little bit more finicky. So if I can run a 215 at

to 3000, 30, 20. Like I don't really, I don't want to run at 31 50. If it shoots great. I mean, you can, I'm not saying don't, but man, the consistency that I get out of 29 50, 3000, it's just day in and day out. It's not finicky. And so I, that's how I pick my gun. So then I pick my barrel twist around that. I, if I want to have a midway gun, I like 30 cows in that 10 to 11 pound range, just because I want to spot my shots. Like I talked about earlier, a good muzzle break. Um,

Um, six, five PRC. Um, I like the one 56 burger a lot. Um,

And then, you know, ADG makes good brass. Lapua makes brass for it. And I'm going to run that gun and probably between an eight to 10 pound gun, probably with a bipod, with everything on it. And I run a big scope. I don't not going to skimp on scope. That's the last thing I'm going to skimp on. And so those are kind of my weights in that eight to 10 pounds. I'm a six, five, 10 to 12 is a 30 and then 12 or above 12 to 16 is a three 38, something big.

Um, so I think a lot of guys are moving to that kind of thing. It works really well. I've shot a lot of stuff in my six, five. I probably shouldn't like I've shot a couple of moves with it and some bears, some bigger bears, like,

Just because I'm so confident, I shoot it so fast, and you can see your shots just so stinking good because it just doesn't kick. At the point you're selecting your round and your caliber, you've already decided whether you want to reload or whether you want to shoot box ammo, right? You have to make that decision. Yeah, I'm reloading. I'm reloading just because I reload a lot. I don't even want to think of how many rounds I've reloaded. So I've got a big room full of

A billion presses and just anyway, I do all that. So yes, in, in, it's been awesome the last few years. And I think the reason the six, five PRC, the seven PRC, the 300 PRC has done well is because Hornady is doing a pretty good job.

We've, we've shot up, set up a bunch of guns with guys like, Hey, I want to shoot factory ammo. So we'll get a few different lots of six by PRC or seven PRC and they shoot pretty good. So that's a good thing to bring up. I don't even, it doesn't really enter my head cause I'm, I just know I'm going to reload. But yeah, if you're going to reload or if you're, if you're going to buy factory, I would probably lean towards those rounds right now. Cause Hornady is doing a pretty good job, pretty affordable, pretty good bullet choice, high VC, longer range bullets.

And they've been good. I mean, six, five PRC has been, been real accurate. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of, like I say, you know, and then you also, I mean, we've had some discussions about 300 PRC versus seven and what your target animal or like what the gun's primarily going to be used for. So if, you know, for an elk guy or, or a moose or elk guy primarily versus if you're just going to be a mule deer hunter, like,

how do you like, is there an energy ideas or just like your experience on, on terminal performance on game? Like, how do you decide like, all right, I want, I want to be able to shoot this gun out to 800 for elk, or I want to be able to shoot this gun out to 600 for deer. Like how does that weigh in on your final, um, you know, and maybe you don't think of that as much as maybe the guy that's wanting to buy a, you know, a different guy wanting to buy a gun should think about it. Yeah. So there's the thousand foot pounds of energy on impact. There's all kinds of different theories out there. Um, yeah,

I am a big fan of less so now, but I think overkill is always better. I, some of my stuff is anecdotal. I don't want to talk bad about seven mils, but I, back in the day I had a two 80 Ackley and I won't say what bullet I was, it wasn't a burger, but yeah,

I was using some bullets and had some real bad experience on elk. It's an accurate round. Seven mils are awesome. I mean, there's, there's a lot of good seven mils out there. I just said, we had three different rosies, no, two rosies and one Rocky that we shot with that gun in one year. And,

And it was really, really bad performance. So that's pretty anecdotal. There's a lot of different bullets. Some of the bullet placement was – most of those – all bullet placement was good. It should have been adequate. You could say not perfect. It wasn't a double lung heart shot, but it was in the vitals. It broke bone. And so since then, like, I've shied away from it. So if I'm going to go elk or moose, I'm going to –

default to the 30 almost always. I've had really good luck with the 215, the 230 burger, and even the 245, you know, the 212 BLDX. Like there's a lot of bullets that guys have had really good luck with. So,

I want a little bit more impact. That being said, I shot a Shires this year with a 6.5 PRC and dropped it. It was a 300 yard shot and it dropped it fast. So yeah, I think more energy is better. I like a bigger hole. I think it's not just energy. I feel like the 338s and 30s seem like they kill really good players.

And I don't... Maybe it's subjective, but it seems like diameter. And a lot of guys I talk to that shoot a lot of elk always seem to like 30s more than 7s. So, personal preference, but I like 30s. Yeah. And then, like, my 338, and I don't want to get into the, like, the... Get nerd out on it completely. Like, those big 300 grain pills and, like, just the sectional density of those, they don't... 100%. And it's...

my family growing up like, Oh, you're going to have no meat left. And I'm like, I've killed elk with two 43s and I've, I've skinned your guys's out to have two 70 holes in them. Like the sectional density and the construction of this bullet, like you can eat to the hole versus your guys's little bolts that explode. Like, don't give me the two 43 to 70 doesn't waste any meat. Like the sectional density, the whole, like I always get an exit out of those 300 grain burgers. Cause there's so much energy to go through. Um, and so that, that plays into it a lot.

in my opinion as well i shot coos deer with my 338 300 grain bullets and it's 338 in and it's a quarter out and you're done where i've shot them with some smaller guns and it's a little hole in and six softball out the other side so i mean again hitting bone things change you guys know that but um yeah three i mean yeah i love 338s are awesome i just i can't spot the shot generally in the weight i want to carry on all these backpack hunts we do like i

I'm just not willing to do that right now. Weight wise. Cause I'm not good at packing camera. All my deer weighs too stinking much. So I was trying to cut some weight somewhere. And it seems like I go down to that six, five PRC or a 30 Cal. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah.

O'Reilly auto parts are in the business of keeping your car on the road. I love O'Reilly. In fact, the other day, I'm not kidding you. The other day I went into an O'Reilly auto parts looking for a part. I needed a different thing that wasn't really in there. You know, only like tangentially related to what they carry.

They did not have it, and the dude told me specifically where I would go down the road to find it is how nice they are. They offer friendly, helpful service and the parts knowledge you need for all your maintenance and repairs. Thousands of parts and accessories in stock, in-store, or online, so you never have to worry if you're in a jam.

They'll test your battery for free. If you need your windshield wipers replaced, a brake light fixed, or quick service, they'll help you find the right part or point you to a local repair shop for help. Whether you're a car aficionado or an auto novice, you'll find the employees at O'Reilly Auto Parts are knowledgeable, helpful, best of all, friendly. These guys are your one-stop shop for all things auto, do-it-yourself,

You can find what you need in store or online. Stop by O'Reilly Auto Parts today or visit them at OReillyAuto.com slash MeatEater. That's OReillyAuto.com slash MeatEater. We've all seen plenty of gadgets and fads come and go, but here's one product that stood the test of time. Seafoam Motor Treatment. Lots of hunters and anglers know that seafoam helps engines run better and last longer.

It's really simple. When you pour it in your gas tank, sea foam cleans harmful fuel deposits that cause engine problems. I'm talking common stuff like hard starts, rough engine performance, or lost fuel economy. Sea foam is an easy way to prevent or overcome these problems. Just pour a can in your gas tank and let it clean your fuel system. You probably know someone who has used a can of sea foam to get their truck or boat going again. People everywhere rely on sea foam to keep their trucks, boats, and small engines running the way that they should the entire season.

Help your engine run better and last longer. Pick up a can of Seafoam today at your local auto parts store or visit seafoamworks.com to learn more.

This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

There's also millions of wide open acres chock full of different landscapes, meaning the hunt in one county is often completely different from just a few counties over. But what really makes South Dakota the greatest goes way beyond just hunting a colorful bird. It's the pursuit of something more like the camaraderie that awaits all kinds of hunters from all walks of life and partaking in South Dakota tradition over 100 years in the making.

It's about taking the greatest shots and watching your dog work the greatest fields in the greatest lands, carrying on the greatest heritage and making the greatest memories. So what are you waiting for? From the rush of the flush to the stories at the end of the day, experience a thrill like no other. Learn how at HuntTheGreatest.com.

we've got, I mean, you build your rifles, you've had lots of rifles built for you over the years. Like how important with, with all the technology out there and everybody building pretty good stuff, like how important are the triggers and barrels and bedding and stocks? Like the, all these things were, you know, when you go to build a gun, you pick the barrel, you pick the stock, you pick, you know, and then the bedding, the bedding is a little bit of, of the, the art and the gun builder and making sure that's done right. But in your opinion, like,

how important is that stuff when you go to build a gun or, or should you just go with what your builder recommends or what, you know, if I'm coming to mountain forge to have a good, yeah,

Yeah. If you have a good builder, trust what they say, you know, um, we've done everything from, you know, a lot of the, like a lot of the chassis say they're dropping ready, bolt and go. And I've had great luck with that. I also like bedding. I've also epoxy them together. Like I, like I'll do that too. I love that. Now I know there's no variables. And so, yeah, triggers are important to use the best trigger. Like,

I think the top triggers right now are TriggerTech, which is what I run, and Vixen Andy's making some real good triggers. Barrels, I've seen every company there is make bad barrels. But there's the top, you've got Benchmark, Krieger, Bartland, Proof.

There's a whole bunch of good barrel makers. I don't, I'm leaving a bunch out, but if there's an, if they're a name in barrels, they're generally going to be fine. And everyone has made a bad barrel. It's the way it goes. There's all, there's been, I've seen every scope break. There is, I've never seen a single brand not break. You just want to pick stuff that's got a pretty good reputation and it's tough. And so, yeah, I think all those components play together. They're important to me.

I think there's probably, there's a lot of custom rifles out there. In my opinion, I'll bet 80 to 90% of them aren't being utilized. The load development's not done. People don't, their chronos are different. They're switching lots of powder and they're not rechecking their gun or re-zero and they're switching lots of bullets, lots of brass, their barrels wearing. People don't,

Some people don't know that barrels speed up. A barrel is going to speed up at 50 to 100, 150 rounds, and it's going to speed up 20, 50, 70 feet a second. And they just get their load done in 20 rounds, and then they go hunting a year or two later. They're like, why am I missing high or what's going on? So stuff changes. I check my guns all the time. Before every single hunt, I chrono and shoot at least to 600s.

But stuff changes. But yeah, get the best components you can get. But the setup, there's a lot of good guns out there that aren't being utilized correctly. And that comes from...

guys geeking out on it, being a hobby, learning and getting their guns set up correctly. Gotcha. Now, now we'll go into the optics and we talked about all the gun components. Now, maybe just as important, if not more important or what you're going to, you know, glue to the top of the gun or stick to the top of the gun, you know? And, uh, so what's, what's your opinion? How do you approach optics? Um, you know, you're mounting like, is there a best way to mount or are there multiple ways? And then, and then ultimately what are you looking for in an optic on top of your gun? Yeah. So, uh,

The whole lapping of rings and stuff, it's

in my opinion, shouldn't be necessary. I've never done it. If you're using a good risk, if you're using a good action with a straight rail and good rings, they better be straight. Um, so I've never lapped any rings. I've never had any problems with the scope. So I don't think that you can ignore some of those things that used to be a lot more commonplace when guys lapped rings, when receivers were crooked and rails were out of spec and stuff like that. So I think that element is mostly gone. Um,

So I just, I use good rings. I, Night Force makes great rings. I like the loophole mark four rings, uh, Hawk. There's a lot of good rings out there guys. So use, use good rings. Don't skip on that. Don't make sure you're, if you're, I love actions with integral rails, you know, machined into the action. If you're, if they're not, uh,

Take those screws out, clean them with alcohol, use Loctite. You do not want your rail coming loose. I can't tell you how many guys have brought, John, I'm in a jam. Can you come check my gun out before season? I've got to hunt next week. And so they'll run over to the house and,

We'll go up. I was like, everything good. Yeah, everything's tight. Everything's tight. Like, okay, we go up there and shoot four rounds. It's all over the place. And I was like, hey, your scopes, you know, pull the scope off, check the screws are all loose. And so that happens a lot. So just common sense, guys, you can't assume you got to pull everything apart, clean it, lock tight it, and then redo it. I don't, you don't need to lock tight your cross bolts on your rings, torque those. Most of them are 55 pound screws.

on the cross bolts, 55 inch pounds. Um,

And then follow your torque specs for your caps. They're usually pretty good. You can use blue Loctite on your caps if you want, but just make sure it doesn't move. The biggest hang-up I see with guys getting it, and I don't know if hang-up's the right word, but they're hesitant to spend the money they need to on a scope. I would much rather see a guy shoot a $500 gun with a $2,000 scope than a $3,000 or $4,000 rifle with a $500 scope. So all day long, I mean...

I've had broken scopes. I've had scopes that don't track. You're not going to hit anything. You're not going to be consistent. You're not going to be able to figure out your drops. Nothing's going to make sense. So spend the money on a good scope. I would say at least...

it's at least 1500 bucks and scopes go up to 4,500 bucks or more. I mean, some of the ZCOs and the tangents, I don't know how much those are now, but they're a lot. But if you're in that, you know, that, that loophole mark five range, night force, NX, a night force attacker, uh,

Um, I know guys, some of the guys are liking the trigger call on the 10 mile. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of good scopes out there. Um, but spend the money on a scope. Don't skimp on a scope. Don't buy. I don't, well, I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, but there's some scopes out there that you need to spend more money on if you can. I understand there's budgets and there's stuff, but if you can afford a,

If you can afford a big truck payment, buy a nice scope. With that said, I think we both hunt with the same rifle, right? You're a Mark V guy on your hunting rifles, and are they on your competition guns as well? Yep. Okay, and then I've got Mark Vs on my 7 SOM and my .338 Edge, and then I shoot the VX6 4-24 on my 6.5 PRC.

Okay. So I did switch that one in. I haven't shot those enough. I get questions about the VX5 and 6HDs, and I just haven't messed with them enough. I've heard decent things about them. I know they're light. I just am so reliant on – I'm so –

I just want the most durable scope. I was, I had a hard time. I think I've said this before. Like, um, I had shot loophole years and years ago and I had switched to night force, uh, just cause they were, they were tanks and it was the old loophole Mark four, no zero stop. This is a long time ago. But, and then, you know, I was talking with Risa over at loophole and she wanted me to shoot for them. They said, you know, the Mark five is coming out. And I was pretty hesitant cause I didn't love the Mark four to be honest. And so, um,

I've gained a lot of trust in the market over the years. I beat that first one up, like tried to break it. Just, I dented it. I dented the objective. I hit the, I was, I beat the crap out of it and it held up and they've held up really good. I've had some big drops on hunts. I've had big drops on competitions and I haven't had any issues with them. Um,

So, yeah, I've grown to trust them a lot. I'm a nerd, so I'm always doing research. And one thing the PRS does is it always shows you, like, what scope are the top 100 shooters using? What triggers? What barrels? And so I went back. I think it was, like, 2018. And you go back, and it's, like, U.S. optics. And I don't know if you get all the credit for this or if it's a group of you guys, but you go back to, like, 18, 19. I know.

Before the Mark V was released and you're like, oh, Leupold has like two shooters. Yeah, two shooters. And they might be in the 50 to 100. Yeah.

No, those two shooters were industry partners that got a free invite to the finale. That's who those people were. They were running the Mark 8s back in the day. So nobody was running them. And now it's crazy. Yeah, I pulled it up the other day. I think it was – well, it was December 1st. I remember I was talking to Dirk and I pulled it up. I said, well, what's everybody in 23 use? And then you go there and it's like 70% of the shooters are now using the Mark 5, which it's kind of cool to see that change. So, I mean –

you know, the top shooters in the world are now trusting that that, that Mark five is going to do what it's supposed to do and what you've proven it can do. So that's pretty cool. Um, when you guys were relying on that thing to return to zero perfectly and that every, you know, that every click is as close to one as you can get, it's probably never going to be 1.00, you know, but it could be, but it could be one. Yeah. I,

Go ahead. Sorry. I mean, it's splitting hairs, but you could be 0.9997, which is all, you know. And so, I mean, that thing is dialed as, you know, I walk mine around 20 MOA at 100 just to make sure it shoots a square and comes back to zero. And the thing's been super repeatable and never off track. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, I do the same thing. I have a big...

like 14 foot tall board i track test i have put scopes on this big 50 pound steel thing with a pick rail and i've track tested a ton of scopes and i've had them i've had them all be good i had early prototype one that was a little bit off but that wasn't for sale and every man every production mark five i have is tracked really well i hear things on the internet guys like hey are you really do you really trust the mark five i read this on the internet i'm like man i

I haven't seen it. I do trust it. That being said, Night Force makes an awesome scope. There's other companies that make great scopes. But I do like the Mark V. I think the balance for the cost...

I don't want this to be a sales pitch, whatever, but the cost, the way and the performance is pretty, it's pretty good. It's pretty, the locking elevation. And then the, I like the cap windage. If you throw your gun and scabbard on a horse hunt or something like it's, it's a, it's a pretty durable scope. Yeah. That was one thing that crept up and bit us on my dad's 300 ultra mag. We were in Colorado on a deer hunt and it doesn't have capped windage and somewhere along the way it got off and he missed a shot at a great meal deer at like 300, not even a long range shot, but his windage had got turned so much.

that it put them off. And so, yeah, that's another cap windage. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm pretty excited. Maybe I don't want to sound, sound too sales pitchy, but I know the day that this podcast launches loopholes kind of following up their Mark five with a new Mark four HD, which will be kind of in that same realm prices. I'm not going to even get into the price cause I don't know per model, but like really, really attractive for,

You might be able to change your idea that you need to spend X on a scope because it sounds like we might get an option. We have to do some more testing. I don't know a ton of what I can talk about. You guys will see it. The Mark IV looks very, very similar to a Mark V. A little different tube size. I think we talked about they're going to a 34 instead of a 35 on a bunch of them. It's going to be cheaper. They're taking a lot of the tech out of the Mark V.

From what I've seen, the ones I've played with, it's pretty impressive. And again, I'm not one to say...

I never recommend something until I use it a lot. But from what I've seen so far, it looks pretty, it looks pretty impressive. So price points are going to be really good. It's, it's not a replacement for a Mark five. It's going to be, it's kind of the tier below. And I think, you know, we'll see improvements to the Mark five is probably due for a revamp at some point. So I think it'll be the Mark four, then, you know, we'll just keep going and progressing. So it's, it's cool. It's yeah.

it looks you when you guys see it you'll laugh it looks they did a little tiny subtle changes to the turrets but it looks like a mark 5 it's a it's a sexy little scope yeah i'm excited they changed it instead of like a 525 it's a 624 type of range so they they changed that a little bit to a 4x but yeah it's it's good it's cool yeah i'm excited about that um

Now let's go into the issues you might. So you've, you've got your gun built. Now we've got our optics mounted. We're, we're all dialed in there. Like what issues could pop up? What if the gun builders did like, what have you found? Um, or like the first thing, everything, but like, what are, I guess what's the most probable issue and like, where should you start? I've, I've seen so many weird things that I can't even, uh, uh,

I've had good brass from companies that instead of testing and measuring everything, I just trust to open it up, size it, check the next and rock and roll and have issues with internal volumes that throw weird stuff off. One of the weirdest ones lately is I was fighting and fighting and fighting a carbon barrel gun. And it was like I'd get some good groups and some bad groups. It just wasn't as consistent as I would like it to be.

And I fought and fought and fought. I took it out. I checked, just redid it. I can't remember. I changed the bedding. I changed socks. I changed scopes. I changed everything. I went, changed bullets. I changed powders and I could not figure it out. The last thing I did was I pulled the muzzle brake off to just triple check that it was clean. There was, it wasn't carboned up and it wasn't. And I was like, screw it. I'm going to put on a different brake. So I had a really lightweight, a titanium brake that was really light.

And I just threw on one of my comp breaks. And so I went from like a one ounce or a sub one ounce break to like an eight ounce break, I think it was, just because I was going to throw the gun away. And I put that other break on and the gun just shot like crazy.

I don't know. I don't want to say quarter-inch because that's whatever. But I had three eights consistently. And I went from – I'm talking I went from an inch and a half to just sub-half inch, just like just switching the brake. And it stacked at 100. And I was like, okay, I'm running a heavy brake on this gun. And it just – whatever that barrel – whatever the deal was with the harmonics in that barrel, the weight off the end of it just settled it down. And that's what a lot of guys – the weight of a suppressor, the weight of a brake will change things. So –

that's just one example of things I've seen. I've seen so many different things, but I can't really say it, you know, pick one, but generally if you're going to work on a gun, you know,

I do try, I shot Hodgson powders a lot. I like the extreme lines. I like, you know, 4350, H1000. I like a lot. Rotombo went away for a long time. I haven't shot Rotombo in years and I didn't like it as much. I did get some weird pressure spikes with Rotombo back in the day that I didn't with H1000, 4831, Varget. All those powders are great. There's a lot of good powders. So go with trusted components, good brass, good bullets. Go with...

Try to eliminate as many variables as you can so you don't question things if there's an issue. But there's always stuff going on. Like I said, bolts, barrel speed and that, lots of powder change. And I've seen a lot of speed differences in powders the last handful of years since COVID. I don't know if everyone's manufacturing stress and everything. And I feel like the lot-to-lot variance was bigger than it used to be. So if you guys are – you got three pounds of this and you run out and you go buy an eight-pound of this –

it's the same powder. Check your speeds. Pressures most likely will be different. Some real basic stuff, but a lot of things people overlook. And even do some measurements when you switch lots on bullets. So I try to buy big lots of stuff so I don't have to do that. Like if I can buy like 40 or 50 pounds at a time of powder, I don't have to worry about that as much. I try to do that, but I'm also going through a lot. I need you to explain that to my wife, why I needed 32 pounds of H1000 and RL26 at the same time.

was to make sure that there wasn't any lot, you know, variation. Yeah, and you got to protect her when the world ends. You got to have a stop. Yeah, there you go. But like, you talked about good powders. Like my H1000, like my ES, my spread on 338 Edge is like single digits on the edge. And whether it's hot or cold, where...

We tried to chase a little bit more performance with the RL26, but I tell you what, if I go out and shoot that gun at 80 degrees here and then go out and shoot it at 30, I'm like, it wasn't worth chasing the speed. And I don't know if you've messed with Vitivori. Vitivori seems to have a little more of that performance edge, but a lot more temp stable. And so we're doing some switching around even in my own loads. But yeah, that was...

one thing, my RL 26 did switch lots in between like my first load versus like this new load. And I could not, the gun was, you know, literally dropping primers out the back, not even just like ejector marks and sticky bolts, like dropping primers when I, I'm like, well, that primer fell out. And like, when I was here, like it was, it was shooting well. And then we had to go back and like move everything on that load. Like the powder changed the, you know, how, how deep we were seating the bullet to get the pressures to get in the right spot. And then now the gun shoots lights out again, but yeah,

One thing we didn't talk about, which we don't even have that much time, is when you get a good rifle built and you've built it backwards from a bullet because that's going to have to... Getting way into the deep end, where you're going to chamber the gun, how far out you're going to push that bullet and try to be out of the lands and all of that. I've been amazed. One thing that really kind of...

you made me like open my eyes is just how finicky it is with tens of grains of powder and bullet seating and, and, and the balance of that. Cause you might have a gun that shoots, you know, quarter MOA as long as you're doing your job. But if you don't get that node just perfectly and, and get your bullet seated, right. Or get the right amount of powder and get that all to match. And you might have a gun that's shooting, you know, three quarters do one MOA on the same gun that you just bump things a little bit. And it just seems to dial it in was one thing that's like, wow, I didn't realize it mattered that much.

Yeah, I think I don't, honestly, I don't know if it does. If you take a 338 and you're running or whatever, if I take my Norma and I'm running whatever, 85, 84 grains, whatever it happens to be. If you drop, if you go to, if I'm shooting 84 grains and I go to 83.8, so two tenths less, I'm going to be running, I'm going to be running, I'm going to be running, I'm going to be running.

and you go shoot a three-shot group, maybe that group looks tighter on that group, but it's not going to look tighter over a sample of 50. It's too small of a percentage to change. So I don't think it does. What percentage do you think matters? If you start to move a half a grain of powder, does it start to... So in the bigger guns, I generally do bigger jumps. And if I'm having problems, I will shrink down. But I don't think it matters as much. I think what I've been doing more lately is...

is I try to stay anywhere away from pressure because they can get finicky. And like when you said about dropping primers out the bottom, you guys need to be careful when you're on a really... Like I live in Western Oregon, you grew up in Western Washington, it gets really wet and water causes pressure. So this is like a disclaimer, I'll say your question. But if you're anywhere close to pressure under good conditions and you're pouring down rain and everything's soaking wet, you're going to pressure out really hard. So...

You guys can do water tests. You can pour out water on your ammo, feed it, shoot a couple rounds, get that chamber wet and see if you still are pressure free. So that's just a tip that you got to be pressure safe with water. So going back to the other thing, what I do, I've been doing more lately is I generally will know there's enough information or I've shot enough calibers where I know there's a speed node for different calibers for whatever reason, um,

Like my 6.5 PRCs, depending on barrel length, it seems like 2,900 to 2,930, 2,940 with the 156 is a really, really good speed accuracy-wise. And so I generally, what I've been doing lately, it's been working pretty good is –

I'll experiment a little bit with powder and maybe half grain increment, some bigger jumps. And then I'll hit that speed. I'll just load to 29, 20. And then I'll do seating test jumps. I'll go 20, 50, 80, 120. Like I'll do big seating depth tests, um,

and kind of make some corrections off of that. That will change your speed a little bit. The bigger, the, the, the closer you are to the lands, you're with your bullet loaded, your pressure is going to spike real quick. And that's like back in the day when weather B got all that speed, they just have massive freeboard built into their guns. So they get a bigger running start with that bullet slamming into the lands and you can get more speed that way. You can load more powder, all that stuff. So, um, your speeds will change as you, as you get closer and further away from the lands. But I've been doing some testing that way. Uh,

It's been working pretty good. I kind of tune in a load with seating depth. And so, but yeah, I don't in the small guns, like when I'm shooting my dashes a lot, when you're loading 30 grains and 29 and a half or 31 grains, like I'll do the 0.2, 0.3 grain increments. But if your gun is going to change, like I don't want my gun to change. If I load a 10th or two either way,

I don't think it's going to, I think over a big sample size, it's not going to, if you go shoot a 20 round string or a 10 round group, you shoot a five shots and five shots and five shots, let your barrel cool, whatever. I don't think your groups are going to be that much different. I think they're all going to kind of cluster into either a half inch or a three quarter, the whole quarter minute gun idea. Yeah.

God, that's bench rest territory. Every once in a while I get a gun that seems to do that, but that's when people say quarter minute, if I do my part, I just call BS like 90% of the time. It's just a real rare gun to do that.

Yeah. And it's just in a light Magnum. I just don't, the shootability of those is difficult. If you're in a bench rest gun, I get it. I'm not arguing with bench rest guys, the guys that shoot the, you know, the PPCs and the hundred yard bench rest and then different things like that. Like those guys are shooting tiny, tiny groups, but that's a different thing than we're talking about. We're talking about hunting. We're talking about field, but we're talking about position in the field. That's not ideal. You know, if you can shoot half inch, half MOA all day, you're killing everything everywhere. You're not missing anything. Yeah.

So, I mean, if you can extrapolate that all the way out, you're shooting two and a half inches of 500 and five inches of 1,000, you're not missing anything anywhere. And so I want slow and steady, consistent day in and day out. I don't want big pliers. I don't want pressure spikes. I don't want to be anywhere near my pressure limit, which if guys are shooting, reloader powders have been really, really accurate for me. But generally, those are the guys chasing speed. They're grabbing 16, 26, 33, whatever.

And even the bit powders are the same thing. The five 65s and the five seventies and the big magnums, those guys are chasing speed. And I'm just, I'm not that guy anymore. Like I'll test them. And if they shoot great, great, but they have been more finicky. I feel like the bit powders carbon up more than Hodgdon. They're way dirtier. Same with reloader. Um, I just haven't had as good as experience with them. Gotcha. So,

Yeah, no, we, you, like I say, there it's obvious through this podcast, you've got some topics. We can go down some giant rabbit holes. We just don't, we can do it. We can do a series because there's so much to, there's so much to it. And, you know, even some of the info that I thought I had, you know, you, you've got different, you know, where we're, we're doing these little ladder tests that, you know, 0.3 jumps on a 93 grain load of my edge. You're saying didn't matter as much as we thought it might've just been me shooting that group versus. I do. I there's,

Man, I don't want to like rock the boat, but if you're doing one shot ladder tests, I think if you do a bunch of them, if you do the same test three times in a row,

and check those flat spot. I do. There are nodes barrels whip. There are speeds that shoot better. Like I said earlier, it seems like I've like 29, 20 and 40 with a 65 PRC and one 56. I like, they, it seems like they shoot there a lot. Um, there are different nodes, so I'm not arguing that. And in theory, the ladder is supposed to show those nodes, right? But I've also, you've got extreme spreads. You've got your brass prep, your consistency. If you shoot that same test three, four times. And so it's 30 or 40 rounds and you,

overlay all that data. I'm okay with that. But when guys go out and shoot one round once and like, there's a flat spot, I call BS on that. Like I've tried it. I just don't do it. Um, I, it's,

It's good info. It's good to have. I just think the statistical relevance of it isn't near as significant as people think, unless you have bigger data samples. Yeah. So some of the best shooters, one of my – like Jake and Morgan, those guys are – like Morgan's top of the game right now. He's a great shooter. I travel with him a lot. And he's like –

He just goes and shoots 10 and 20 round groups. And he goes, if it's five eights, whatever he goes, I'm going to win a match. He goes, you're going to, you're going to, you know, so he just, he doesn't even hardly do load development anymore. Six, five Creed with a one 50 class bullet running at 26, 80 to 2,700 feet a second. It's going to shoot there. You know, if it doesn't, it's the barrels problem. That's kind of his mentality. I geek out a little more than that, but, um,

When you shoot a lot of big data sets, your little one and two-tenth tweaks start to go away. It gets frustrating. You're like, oh, wait, this is kind of meaningless because I shot one three-shot group here and I shot another three-shot group. You need big data samples. Yeah, gotcha. So talking in circles a little bit here.

here yeah no no it's great information and you know it's like same thing on the archery side where we used to all paper tune and now i'm to the point where you know depending on the bow you get it set and i'm just going to get my broadheads and field points to to match in and i you know we skip paper sometimes so there's different ways to get there where you're you're just focusing on that speed that you know from so many you know trigger pulls and chrono checks that you're like i'm gonna get the gun there and then mess with seating and we should be good

which sounds like it worked a lot yeah yeah no no and that's where I don't want to I change powder I the guys are like oh my gosh you know but you know you do tweak powder but just if I get to know a gun a lot like I've shot a lot of six dashers six five creeds 25 creeds six five PRCs 300 normas there's a lot of guns I've shot a lot and it just seems like

I started all that with, you know, three tenths and half grain increments and up and down and seating depth. And I just seemed like every gun kept coming back to a general ballpark. And that's why I'm saying that. I started with the powder thing, you know, but I have changed a little bit over the years. A little less time too. It's like, hey, I know what's going to get here. Let's get here as fast as we can. Do a big seating depth test and try to do bigger sample sizes. You know, I'll shoot a three-shot group. With magnums, I don't want to shoot a 10-round string, right? I'll do that with my comp guns and shoot like a 10-round –

group and just see how it, how it, how it goes. Um, both magnums, I'll shoot three, let it cool, shoot three, let it cool, shoot three. So I'll have nine shots in a group or something like that. And I want it to stay in there. You know, I don't want big flyers, but if you're shooting half inch, like I'm pretty happy with that, especially in light guns. Gotcha. So, uh,

Yeah. Thanks for coming on, John. We really appreciate having you. You're, you're a wealth of knowledge. You, uh, you know, you shoot great. Your, your knowledge is, uh, goes deep into the, into the topic of long range guns shooting really well. And, uh, I love more so that you're not just a steel puncher that you, you did all this because you love to hunt and then you like to go take what you know and, and to, uh, you know, put in animals. So do you have any big plans for 24 that you're putting together?

Uh, yeah, I mean, we're working on it. Um, got, there's a bunch of connections. We're probably going to go back up to the territories this year, kind of finalizing that for doll sheet. Um, maybe caribou on a trophy fee. Um, I'm trying to finish my North American 29. I was up at, um, Kodiak was number 27, um,

uh, in December, I went up there and killed a pretty good black tail up there. And so that was number 27. So I have got a polar bear left and a Rocky mountain bighorn. And so kind of working through that, maybe polar bear this spring. Um, there's a lot of stuff that's not in concrete that we're working on. So yeah, there's some months coming up, so we'll see. Um,

kind of how things work out. Some of it comes down to raffle drawings and some luck and some other things. So, so we'll see. And then blacktail, I love blacktail hunting around here when time, time permits. It was fun. This year was fun. They bumped to Oregon season dates back this year to like, it ran to November 10th. And so I got back from the finale and I had five days to hunt, which was awesome. So I was running around with my rifle and passed on more big blacktails than I've ever passed looking for a giant.

but didn't shoot one, but I had a blast. Saw some big bucks at two, 300 yards that you'd normally wouldn't see because of the dates was, that was a lot of fun. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. We'll see. We'll think we'll fit something in. And there's always hunts that come up last minute. So you're going to bring that six and a half PRC up there for the polar bear. You're going to pick up, grab a bigger gun. You think so? Maybe bring the six, maybe bring the six dasher up there. Yeah.

No, I'll probably just bring a 30. I'm assuming probably just the 300 norma. So I was actually going to, I was talking with a guy who might actually shoot with solid, just to test generally up there. It's, I've been up there once before, um, for Ben's, for, uh, my buddy Ben's in November. And, um, it's, uh, generally not long. It's not a really long range, uh,

hunt the way it lays out. Yeah. It's a, it's interesting. It's an interesting deal. So I might take solids up there as a test. So we'll see. Cool. Cool. Well, how can, how can all our listeners follow along? I know you're not, you know, you're, you're all over the PRS and the NRL stuff and there's articles and you know, all the, all the shooting support that you get, but you don't seem to be huge on social, but, but, but it is there.

I just have my, mostly just Instagram. I'm so far behind. I didn't post all half my stuff this year. I haven't even loved hate. I mostly hate relationship with social. But I do need to, I like seeing other people's stuff. So I need to post more. So I'll be posting stuff on there. But just, it's just John Pinch on Instagram. J-O-N-P-Y-N-C-H. And I'm blocked. So you got to search me to find me. I guess I'm a, whatever. I posted last night. I posted this picture of, I was up in Alaska. We were on a bear hunt this year and I shot a harlequin.

I posted a picture of that with a, uh, like a over under and my, my profile is banned for nudity because of that duck picture. I was like, what? Anyway. So anyway, that's where I'm at. But, um, yeah, follow along, post pictures of, uh, mostly hunting stuff, a little bit of comp stuff, but reach out, shoot me a message if I can help you. Well, um,

generally respond on Instagram relatively quickly. Yeah. But yeah, if you have any questions, more than happy to help you guys with what I can. But yeah. No, appreciate chatting with you. Usually our conversations are, John, I got something's not going right with this load or this gun. So it's nice to sit down and have a chat about, you know, everything shooting and not even everything, like barely scratch the surface on everything shooting. You know, you could probably talk for

days, but I appreciate having you. Good luck on all your hunts this year, John, and we'll stay in touch. Yeah, thanks. You too. Thanks for having me on, man. Hey, we're going to take a little break here and talk about interstate batteries. Now, if you're like me, enjoying the great outdoors, you need gear that is as reliable as it gets. That's why I power my adventures with interstate batteries. I use interstate batteries in my boats. I use interstate batteries in my camper. Great for your truck, too. From Alaska to Montana, they're outrageously dependable.

Battery is essential. With over 150,000 dealer locations, finding one is easy. For all your vehicles, land or sea, choose Interstate. Head to InterstateBatteries.com and find your power today. You ever get that feeling, the walls closing in, the concrete jungle suffocating you? You crave some wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe in a spot all your own. Well, head over to Land.com.

They've got ranches, forests, mountains, streams, you name it. Search by acreage. You can search by location. You can search by the kind of hunting and fishing you're dreaming of. Land.com. It is where the adventure begins.