Ep. 52: DIY Elk Hunting Series: Rifle Elk Hunting PT1
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Tom and I have kind of connected over social media over the last few years. If you guys have been living under a rock somewhere, you may not know who Tom Schneider is. So Tom runs the Stuck in the Rut YouTube channel and social media pages. Stuck in the Rut, they're based in Idaho. They have a trophy room that I would say would rival about anybody's I've ever seen. They have a very special family. They're a hunting family.

that has been super successful across all species of animals in Idaho, big game species, whether you're talking about white tails, mule deer, elk, moose, and then Alaska as well. They have family members in Alaska that invite them up, and then they've taken all sorts of beautiful animals in Alaska's harshest conditions, and they've documented all this on YouTube videos. If you haven't, if you've never seen their YouTube channel, you've got to check it out, Stuck in the Rut.

Just want to say welcome, Tom. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. I think people watch your videos and see what you guys are doing and they think, oh man, all you guys do is hunt all the time. You must be rich. Yeah. We just have this unlimited money, you know? Yeah. But I'm here to say it. His family, they're normal people with normal incomes, but what they do is they work.

A lot. Yeah. And bank money and bank time to go hunting. Yeah. So talk about, you know, what's work life look for Tom Schmuck Schneider? Well, you've met my dad already. Yeah. Your dad is one of the coolest guys I've ever met. I just love old guys like that because he doesn't seem old, but he's, you know, his years that he's been on earth is...

He's been here a long time, but he's got a younger soul and then he's a character. Oh, he's just a workaholic. And I think all of our family members, all the siblings pretty much picked that work ethic up from him. I was telling you yesterday, not by choice, because that's just the family we grew up in. Not throwing any family members under a bus, but even my little... We crack up and make fun of it a little bit. My little brother...

too, just at a young age. We just never were like, man, he's the laziest one in the family. He was never going to gain a work ethic. And man, Trevor will outwork anybody out there. You know, it's just really, we just grew up in a really good family dynamic. My dad's a workaholic. My mom works hard too. She didn't start work until after, you know, she was a stay-at-home mom. And as soon as

We grew up and got out of the house. Now she's working full time as well. And yeah, you know, I think dad just really got us into hunting at an early age too. Again, you're, he's hunted, you've hunted a lot of the same hunting grounds he's hunted back in the eighties. Yeah. And, and, you know, and he got to see the heyday.

And some of the stories I didn't know were BS or not, where he's talking about, oh, I saw that 400 inch bull. And I'm like, okay, dad, yeah. But then you're showing me that some of those same areas that, okay, that it can happen. The genetics are there. Um, but unfortunately, as we, as we consistently talk about why you're here in the first place too, is that we're pursuing wolves. Um, cause wolves have, I don't want to, I'm not trying to exaggerate when I say this, but they've ruined our lifestyle.

and in hunting and finding the animals that we used to see. And, you know, I think those memories stay embedded in our minds of like, man, you know, like I remember the days when I'd climb up on this ridge and I'd have four bulls bugling and you have the habitat, you got the feed, and then all of a sudden it's just like, it's gone. Um, so I kind of got off topic there, but, um, I just, I see that and that's kind of why we pursue wolves and, you know, you're up here and

And I bet we kind of did a couple of days of that and had a blast, but yeah, going back to, you know, our family dynamic, I've been really fortunate to, to live in a family where we get along for one, um,

We fight. We have our moments where we fight. I mean, working together, I still, I bounce between Travis and dad. So Travis has a construction business. He builds houses for a living. My dad works in the woods between logging, between clearing land for other property owners. So I guess it's tough to really give myself a title. Like if you were to ask me, Tom, what do you do for work? I've really had a hard time giving myself a title for that. Like I'm a contractor.

I'm in forest management. It just really depends. Like some years I'm like, I'm done building this year. I want to switch back to doing some forest management. And I think at the end goal is though, is to make enough money so that we can hunt in the fall. And that's my drive. Like I couldn't just, for me, I can't just, I mean, I consider myself like a very hard worker, right?

But if I didn't have those passions and hobbies to keep me going, I probably would just straight up pick up a nine to five and just say, you know what, screw it. I'm just going to, I'm just going to zombie it for the rest of my life. Get a nine to five, you know, just to put food on the table. But no, I have passions. I have, well, I don't know if you call it a passion or an obsession. I love to hunt. I'm just passionate about it. And with the work that we do, it allows us to take off time in the fall to hunt and

And then by the end of the fall, that money gets low. I was telling you about that. I'm like, like toward the very, very end of the fall and you have all these tax and rebills. I'm like, that is a nice bowl, but I don't, at this point I'm strapped on money. So about time December kicks in, I'm back to have, you know, to making up for lost time. And so, but again, it's worth it. It's all worth it.

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, you kind of said you got, we went sideways or got off track a little bit about when we were talking about wolves, but I think that kind of segues in nice to what we're really going to talk about today. And I wanted to pick your brain on rifle hunting, you know, in Idaho, a lot of the units it's in October ends about the first part of November and some years you may be lucky enough to find a

bullet bugles that first few days of October season. Um,

or not. And sometimes, especially with being Idaho so forested, um, it's really hard to find, um, fine elk if they're not being vocal during rifle season. Um, if, if there's not, if they're not in the opening somewhere, um, then you have the big timber to try to, to locate them in. And I just kind of want to figure out what your process was. I know we've talked a lot this week about it, um, just as you showed me the beautiful country here. Um, but kind of

Kind of wonder listeners to kind of get a peek on how you find elk in October, whether, you know, maybe do some calling and stuff and then how it kind of transpires from, from there. Absolutely. And I, and can I switch this off to a question to you? Yeah. So you, you spent two full, is it two or three? I'm trying to think now the days are.

Starting to blur. I think I've been here three days. Three days. Three full days. That's right. So, yeah, evening and stuff. So, you've walked around with me quite a bit. You've seen what the terrain's like. What would you say your average shooting lane is? Like how far of your shots do you have? I feel like if I were elk hunting and would have an encounter, most of them would be up close, very close, within 50 yards or less.

most of the time or super long distance like you know six seven eight hundred yards so that head into that basin you and i were at yesterday we actually had some long-range shooting opportunities yeah yeah it's it's funny because it's it's never anything really in the middle though there's no middle ground yeah it's even hey it's brushes i'll get out or be here above tree line and you got some shooting lanes and so um yeah i think it really starts with um especially you

With elk hunting, I think what really helped us out was watching elk throughout the entire year. Right from the beginning, you've talked about the type of wildlife we have, right? I say I'm very fortunate where I live in the fact that we have a lot of different species of animals. Some areas you hunt, it's an elk area. Some areas you hunt, it's a mule deer area.

This could be Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado. Some areas, it's just a moose area. We live in one of these very interesting ecosystems where we have mule deer. If you're at a certain elevation, you're a mule deer. If you're at a certain elevation, you're in whitetails, good whitetails, elk.

Wolf, unfortunately. Black bear. We have grizzlies. We were following grizzly tracks. Yeah, we saw a big old grizzly track. Big old grizzly track. First day. Tom, look at this. There's a big old bear track. Yeah, we're about ready to run a predator call for wolves. So mountain goats. If you just drive probably about 30 minutes east of us, you're in bighorn sheep.

So we have a lot of animals and I'm sure there's a lot that I've missed that I've, oh yeah. Then go into the predators, mountain lion, bobcat. We do have a couple of links. I mean, again, the list goes on. We have a variety of wildlife here. And, and so now going back to the type of terrain we're hunting, you know, it can be really challenging to hunt this heavy timber country. Um, but growing up and watching the dynamic and all these animals and their behavior was really helpful for us.

Um, originally from the beginning, I felt like there was a lot of elk. You and I've talked about this where, um, I felt like there was a time where if you're just a hard hunter, you didn't even have to know elk. If you're just a hard hunter, you're going to come home with a good elk. But now with the lack of elk that we have, and you don't have elk bugling, like in the September season, it can be really challenging and pulling an elk with the rifle because the elk are so few and far between.

And the one thing that surprises me with a lot of people is people are always asking, where do you hunt? Where, or they see, they see where my pickup's parked. They're like, oh, I know where you killed that bull. So now I know where to go too. It's like, well, have fun. But if you don't know elk, you're not going to know how to find them. Because these pockets of elk, I mean, you've got thousands and thousands of acres and you're trying to find one little pocket of bulls, like a bachelor group of bulls in the post-rut season.

And so you have to be able to understand the behavior of an elk and why they do what they do. It's not where, like, oh, where do I hunt? Where do I hunt? The question is, is why would I hunt there? If there's elk here, you got to ask why. You got to understand why do elk do what they do? That's really what it comes down to, right? Like if you follow people, you're going to get people. You want to follow me in the woods, you're going to get me.

If you stop following me, stop following other people. Don't you want to find elk and get away from people? Exactly. And so that's what you really need to do, right? Is, is to focus on elk, learn about their habits and their behaviors and pursue them from there. Um, and I will be honest in saying that I prefer the archery season, just the fact that they're bugling. But sometimes when, as soon as the bugling stops in October, everybody hangs up the bow and,

And they're like, I'm done for the year because I can't kill a post-rut bull. They don't realize that there is some really good opportunity in killing a big bull in the post-rut season. Now, Idaho has a lot of opportunity to kill them in October. There's places in Montana where the season's actually extended to November. I mean, and there's places like that in Idaho too as well. And a lot of states too. There's a lot of post-rut opportunity with the rifle there.

but the elk aren't talking. Sometimes. Talked about sometimes you get a little late rut and that's a game changer. Yeah. So, and then I know I'm just rattling on right now, but it's just finding out what are they doing and why are they doing it? Weather can be an issue with that. You have to think of an animal. We talked, you and I both talked to before too, with every species of animal,

you have to find their groceries you have to find their shelter and safety and those are the three things that i mean just to lay down a foundation for for an elk hunter mule deer hunter wolf hunter anything grocery shelter and safety is what is why an animal does what they do an elk that that definition is different than a mule deer an elk safety is different than a mule deer right a mule deer

Especially in an area of possibly, you know, with long range shooting, I know some muleys don't hit the openings as much as they used to. However, genetically they're designed to be out in open country. They're able, you know, with their long ears, they're able to pick up sound. They're able to spot you long ways away. When I hunt Colorado, bucks can spot me six, 700 yards away and move out of canyon, you know. They're really good. They have really good eyesight. An elk's definition of safety is much different.

And so you have to learn about that. You have to focus on that in itself. So let's say...

It's opening day and you're out there and you hear a bull bugle. Oh, and I hear a lot of folks tell me this story every year, like, yeah, man, I had a bull bugling and, you know, I just, you know, I kind of got to a vantage point and just kind of watched and, you know, and I, I didn't really see any elk materialize and, you know, I just, they, they kind of slipped away from me and, um,

darn it. I didn't get a note. Um, what would you do if you hear a bull bugle, um, in October? Great question. And I'm, I'm not going to answer this question directly, but I'll say this, that there's two different types of hunters, right? There's those that are like really aggressive hunters. Those are aggressive. They just go and kill. There's the other hunters that are too afraid to move in, right? They're like, well, if I move in, I'm going to bump them. I'm going to scare them off.

um i try to find that balance there's a time there's a window you find this window of opportunity and one and travis is better i mean i actually felt like i gained this technique for my brother because my brother is um he he charges he's like charge you know i just imagine those war movies were like charge you know and you got the the guy with the horn you know trav

would charge out a bugling bull. Yeah. And I learned that from him. And if you have a bull bugling and let's say you're in that timber like we were talking about where you got those 50-yard shooting lanes...

Then absolutely, I would just go in there and charge. Don't bugle. Don't give out your location. You have a rifle in your hand. It's different with a bow because you have a lot of obstacles, right? You have to get an archery range. You have to get them past brush. There's a lot of things that, you know, so you're going to try to call in that elk. Don't try to call in a bull when you got a rifle in your hand. This is just me. This is my technique. Right. They're bugling. They're occupied. Just move in on them.

And then just get a shot. Get in close. When you start hitting that bubble and getting really close, start slowing down, moving, you know, pull out your binos. Although sometimes you don't feel like in heavy timber country, you don't need binos, you do. You pick apart the timber. Sometimes you just expect to see a full-blown elk. You're not going to expect to see that. You're looking for an ear. You're looking for an eyeball. You're looking for a rack. One of the biggest bulls, my brother, one of the biggest bulls, not the biggest bull my brother's killed.

The bull that he, when he shot it, all he saw was like an, he knew it was a big bull, but when he snuck up to it, he saw an eyeball and he saw like a part of the rack where he only saw like two of the front kickers. So he knew it was a bull and, but he wasn't able to see the entire rack, but he was able to identify this as a bull elk. This is the herd bull, you know? And so that's what you're looking for. Right. But again, it's finding that window of opportunity to just charge in there and kill.

Um, we've talked about where people don't know how to find that balance. There's those who just, they always charge in on everything where they're just like charge, charge, charge, and they push the animals out of the Canyon. Right. Um, but I will say this, that verse that those type of people that do more charging versus the people that are too afraid to move in the guys that typically charge in and just move into the Canyon and try to get it done. Those guys kill more. They do.

I feel like one thing that we have, I don't want to say we've perfected, but we've perfected more than others is the balance of that, where we know when to charge him and we know when to not do. But if I have a bull bugling and I have a rifle in my hand, that is the perfect scenario. And that doesn't happen every year. Sometimes they're not doing that and you're timber pounding or you're trying to catch them in their feeding or bedding areas. You know what I mean? But if I had a bull bugling and

I'd say, depending on the scenario, 80% of the time, I would just move right in and then being quiet. If I'm breaking a lot of branches, I have a cow elk read in my mouth. Elk are loud animals. If any of you have hunted elk in the woods, if you have even, it could be a cow and a calf, and it sounds like a herd of elephants walking through the brush. When you're walking in the brush, don't always think, oh, shoot, I messed up the hunt. Like you're just another elk. Let out a couple of cow calls.

and just keep moving in if you feel like you're at a point to where they can hear you you're not trying again you're not trying to call them in you're just trying to cover up your sound right and getting in close and getting a shot on this bull o'reilly auto parts are in the business of keeping your car on the road i love o'reilly in fact the other day i'm not kidding you the other day i went into an o'reilly auto parts looking for a part i needed a different thing that wasn't really in there you know only like tangentially related to what they carry

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This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

There's also millions of wide open acres chock full of different landscapes, meaning the hunt in one county is often completely different from just a few counties over. But what really makes South Dakota the greatest goes way beyond just hunting a colorful bird. It's the pursuit of something more like the camaraderie that awaits all kinds of hunters from all walks of life and partaking in South Dakota tradition over 100 years in the making.

It's about taking the greatest shots and watching your dog work the greatest fields in the greatest lands, carrying on the greatest heritage and making the greatest memories. So what are you waiting for? From the rush of the flush to the stories at the end of the day, experience a thrill like no other. Learn how at huntthegreatest.com. So I'm going to boil that down a little bit. So we hear this bull bugling.

And I'm a few hundred yards away, maybe across the big draw or whatever. So immediately I'm like, try to pinpoint where I hear the sound come from. And then I'm going to immediately go to that bugle and make sure I keep the wind right. And for the 80 to 90% of the trip to that bull,

I'm not going to worry about being quiet. I'm just going to get there. I'm going to, I'm going to move quickly. I'm going to snap some trip, some, some limbs and stuff, but I'm just going to, I'm trying to cover the distance. I want to get over to there before that bull leaves the area. And then as I approach the area where I think I'm getting very close, now I'm going to slow down a little bit and be a little more mindful of my noise and then start working my way in. But I'm not, I'm not Elmer Fudd hunting. Like I'm not like taking one step,

stopping for 10 minutes and then taking another step, kind of like still hunting. I'm moving a little faster than that. I'm moving slower, more deliberate. I've got my head on a swivel. I'm using my optics to glass ahead to make sure I don't get caught. Yeah. And when you, the Elmer Thud hunting does happen right when you get in that bubble. Right. You're in that bubble. You can hear the sticks popping around you.

You can smell them. Sometimes just smelling them is enough. Like you can sometimes smell before, then you slow the heck down. Okay. And then, then you're really, the binos are in your eyes and you're trying to just scan the brush. Like I said, sometimes like I know a lot of guys that hunt heavy timber country that just don't pair, they don't pack binos. They don't, they're just like, why do I need them? I got my scope. You know, honestly, I like binos just because I got two eyes.

And I could sometimes, it's great to use the scope to scan, but the pair of binos, I got two eyes in them. I can see a big, I could see a lot more, right? So I'm looking for anything out of the ordinary. Sometimes it can be tough in September because the brush is turning yellow.

Yeah. The same color of an elk. Same color of an elk. So like I said, so sometimes you're not even looking for the yellow body. You're looking for an eyeball. You're looking for something out of the ordinary. A nose. A nose. Just that shiny nose or a flick of an ear. Sometimes what I've seen was steam. So I've had that where I'm walking, I smell elk. I'm like, I feel like I'm getting close. And all of a sudden I see steam.

Like, what's that? And I look with my binos and it's steam coming out of the nostrils. Oh yeah. And I could see that because it's early morning and I'm like, okay, that's a, I'm looking at an oak nose right now. Yeah. And you're like, there's an eyeball. Look at the pedestal. Oh, there's a, it has antlers. You see part of a beam and it's the toughest thing about this type of hunting is you're

It's really tough to identify how big a bull is. Now, I've already identified that it's a shooter. Like, you know, most states, it's like, well, Montana, it's brow tine or bigger. So if I can identify that it has brow tines in, it's a legal bull. I can shoot it, right? I don't know if it's, it could be a rag bull, it could be a three-year-old, it could be a big mature monster bull.

Um, that's just something you have to make the choice of. And I've had multiple times where I can't, or I, I would see a bowl that has big fronts. I'm like, Oh, that's a shooter bowl. I'd shoot. And I'm like, Oh, well, it's a bowl, you know, I'm happy with it, but I could have swore it was bigger. Right. You know, you take those quick shots. Cause by that time, you know, you expect it, Oh, wait for it to turn its head. By the time it's turned its head, it's on the run. Yeah. Um, and so, um,

Then you just have to make a quick shot on that. But I would rather shoot it while it's standing still. Right. But yeah, like we were talking about the Elmer Thud thing, it's using, you know, it's, you don't want to waste your time in that long distance. Like, yeah, let's say you heard that bull bugling three or 400 yards away. You're going to waste a lot of time taking a couple of steps, looking around, right? Charge in there, getting close.

then stop and start really slowing down on your walking. Again, sticks popping is not going to alert them that much. Right. Like they're elk. They're loud animals. Yeah. And if you give an occasional cow call, we're not saying blow your cow call the whole way there. You're not, yeah. It's just like if you make a loud stick break, maybe one cow call, maybe two. The worst thing to do is to give away your location. Right. Yeah. So you, I mean, but at the same time, you don't want to alarm them either.

So, yeah, like I said, you want to cover your sound up, but at the same time, if you cow call all the way in, what you end up doing is you have a bunch of eyes waiting for you to come in. Right. Exactly. They hear you coming like, Hey, who's this elk coming to see us? You're making a scene. Yeah. And so you don't want to make a scene. Yeah.

You don't want to stand out. You're just like, you just want to be part of the herd. Yeah. Get in close. And then when you're really close to that, you do a couple of cow calls. You already got cows all over the woods. Right. And that herd bull, especially in the timber, he can't see all his cows. So to him, he doesn't know any different. He don't, he don't have a number either. He has, doesn't say, well, I have six cows and I see six right here. Yeah. He has an idea. He's like, I think they're out here. Yeah, exactly. Somewhere.

Now, the other thing we were talking about, though, too, is like, let's say this is the only time it'd be different. Well, let's say that scenario is we hear a bull beagling, he's caught the canyon, but there's a clear cut nearby. And it almost sounds like he's going to come out of that cut. I might just sit there and wait. Or above treeline. Maybe I'm above treeline and I'm seeing little patches where I can shoot from.

I feel very comfortable shooting long range. In fact, sometimes I feel like my shots are better at long range because you have the time to make a proper shot. Those close range shots can sometimes be rushed and sometimes takes more than one bullet. I'm going to just kind of respond to haters that have never hunted timber country. Some people are like, oh, you should only shoot an animal with one bullet.

I think that's actually the opposite and somewhat disrespectful because no matter how good of a shot you think you are, you may wound a bull elk. How many guys do you know have shot an elk and they had a second chance on shooting it but were like, no, that first shot was good? Yeah, you hear it a lot. And they track a blood trail for miles. They had a chance to put that bull down. They had a second opportunity and they didn't take it. For me, it's like some people are like, oh, we don't want to waste meat. It's like I've put...

In some scenarios, I put four to five bullets in a bull elk and I've wasted probably a quarter pound of meat. If you're shooting lungs, there's not much there. You're fine. You want to anchor them down. It could be all lung shots. You know what I mean? You want to make sure you anchor that bull down.

Yeah. I've always said, you know, if the bull's still standing or moving, keep shooting. Yeah. Till they fall. Exactly. And then as you approach, be ready to shoot again. Exactly. I wanted to touch on something real quick before we go any further. You talked about using your binoculars to scan instead of your scope. And I think that's really smart and it's really safe. Especially if you're not familiar with how the difference between a real elk bugle and maybe a hunter's bugle. Yeah.

So it's super important to make sure you're being safe by using your binoculars. I've had people scope me before. It's the scariest thing. It's the scariest thing. I'll look up and I see a dude up on the ridge and he's pointing his rifle at me. And I immediately hit the dirt. I mean, you scare the crap out of people when you do that. Binos, I mean, you can buy binoculars from $100 to $2,000, right? There's a binocular for everyone.

everyone's price range. Get them, use them, be safe. Don't scare the crap out of people or maybe even take a shot and shoot a person, you know, be, be aware of what you're shooting. You have to know your target. Yep.

Another thing that bothers me to no end is when people's like, and it's a lot with wolves more than anything is people are a little bit more trigger happy with wolves. Right. So you hear, you hear wolves howling, you see the brush move in. People want to just pull the trigger. Yeah. I've, I've had guys say, I just blazed the brush, just started shooting. I'm just like, what are you doing? Yeah. Like, what if that was me trying to howl on a wolf pack? Like that is stupid. Always know your target.

But it doesn't take, like I said, with elk, it doesn't take much. It could be heavy timber, but you can already identify. You see an eyeball, you see a nose, you see the

You see the rack. You may not see the entire elk image, but you've already identified what you're shooting at. You already identified, like I said, if it's Montana and it's brow tine only, don't just shoot a big yellow body. You have to identify, okay, I see brow tines on the bull at least. I don't know if it's a five point. I don't know if it's a 10 point. I don't know if it has kickers like a big red stag. I don't know what that is, but I've at least identified that it's a legal elk and I could shoot it.

There's no reason you should be shooting at things you can't see. And then going back to the long range, I feel a lot more than this is. Again, this is so controversial and I don't know why. I feel more comfortable taking a long range shot at 600 yards than taking a closeup shot. I feel like my shots are a lot more, they're a lot more thought through. I'm a lot more stable. I have time to calm my heart down. I can make a very, very good shot at 600 yards. My odds of killing a bull at 600 yards are,

comfortably with one shot are much higher than a close-up shot but you just can't help it when you're in heavy timber country right you like you have to take those shots um some guys are better than others and taking those quick rush shots i give credit to my big brother travis he can i've i've told you some of his shots that i've i've watched i'm just like

wow, that was pretty impressive. But, you know, I think we've all had misses too, right? Right. You kill, you hunt enough animals, eventually a miss happens. Sure. But hunting timber country is a challenge in itself, but people are really intimidated by it and avoid it. And, but if you learn how to do it, you can,

You can get away from a lot of people. In fact, there's still areas I hunt to this day where I'm the only boot tracks in the mountain. And this is public land, do-it-yourself hunts. You know what I mean? Right. And just people are intimidated by it. Even the grizzly bears, right? How many people that I know are like, I'm not hunting that. There's grizzly bears in there. Especially if you're hunting those areas where you have all this close range shot, everybody's afraid of bumping a grizzly.

Just get good life insurance, you know, for your life. Set your family up so they won't struggle with your job. Yeah, exactly. We're all going to die someday. Like, don't, you know, there's no reason to worry. Like, I used to really worry about hunting grizzly country. You know, you were kind of talking about like, are you kind of worried about pericone? I'm like, eh, I got good life insurance. It'll be fine. I'll be okay. But I've yet to...

I mean, knock on wood, I'm the only family member that, well, me and my mom both, I guess, but my mom doesn't spend a lot of time hunting. But I myself am the only family member that hasn't been charged by a grizzly. So I hope to keep that record. It's a game of odds. It's a game of odds. I think as many times you're out there, it's eventually going to happen. Yeah. I will say this, the first time Travis ever got charged by a grizzly

a grizzly was an inland grizzly in alaska he came home and he took every single sling off our guns you probably noticed that i don't have a single sling on a gun yeah chav took all those things off the guns he said you don't want to he's like if i had a sling on my gun and it was on my shoulder i'd be dead yeah so he did that up to every single gun wow um but you know sometimes when i try to hike to the meal the elevation my gun is my pack

But you want to be packing heat somewhere. If it's a little pistol or something, you got to have protection. Right. Yeah. In Canada, unfortunately, they don't allow pistols. So everybody has to pack pepper spray. It's not my recommendation. If you got a pistol, it's nice, but it's something. Right. Pepper spray is another thing. But again, I know sometimes I get off tangent, but with the

But going back to long range shooting, I do prefer it if I have a chance. And if I see the scenario, I'm like, hey, I think I can get this bull out in an opening I'm going to shoot. But if not, I'm just going to charge right in to a bugle bull. Awesome. I love that. Now, I'm going to talk a little bit more about this long range shooting. To do this accurately and to do it consistently and to do it ethically,

You're not just taking your rifle with just your normal everyday rifle and be like, well, I think he's about 600 yards. Yeah, I got my range right, 600 yards. I'm going to aim three feet over his back because, you know, I kind of looked at the ballistic chart one time and I think that should drop that bullet right into where I need to aim. You're not doing that. Like, how does one, like...

make those ethical and accurate long-range shots. It really, and I'm not trying to, because the one thing my dad always says, you can't buy yourself an elk, but to an extent, you got to have the proper equipment, right? You got to pay for it. You're not going to cheap out on a long-range gun. You got to have a really good long-range rifle. For us, we've originally started with Gunwerks, and Gunwerks has taught us a lot about long-range shooting.

You know, before Travis started off with these charts where he'd print off the ballistics and he'd have the reticles inside the scope, which are just, if anyone doesn't know what a reticle is, it's the hash marks inside the scope. A lot of people don't know what that's for. Those are trying to explain this the best way possible. Maybe you can even explain it better. The hash marks in a scope, it really depends, but most of those are measured in MOA, which is minutes of angle.

And what minutes of angle is, it's a minute and it depends how much you dial. So like, let's say I dial my scope into where it's zeroed. I'm hitting the bullseye at a hundred yards. At a hundred yards, one hash mark should be one minute. And then beyond that, the range, it's different, correct? And so you have to, it's a little bit of a learning curve. But after you learn these things, then you know,

okay well this animal is at 600 yards i need to be shooting for this um but there's a lot of obstacles and now you know before with back in the day when you need those charts there was a lot of mistakes that would happen for example the barometric pressure um which is another thing i can get into um like for example temperature you know there was a white this is when like it's a good thing anything like people get in the archery hunt and mistakes happen right

There was a whitetail buck. This was the first year Travis was ever hunting. It was negative 13 degrees. Travis had this gun dialed in when it was like probably 40 degrees in October. Yeah. So now he has a buck. It's negative 13. He's made this shot multiple times. Monster whitetail, about 25 inches wide. He shot right over its back. He didn't know why at the time. The temperature change is also...

has a lot to do with it too. Gunworks has created a system inside the range finder that does all the calculations for you to where really it, I don't want to say I'm a dummy, but it takes a lot of the homework out of your shooting practices.

You don't have to be a mathematician to figure it out. Yeah. Let the range finder and the equipment do that for you. Right. I can put my mom on a rifle and she can drop a white. She did this. There was a nice whitetail buck and I had her sit on the gun and she dropped it 600 yards. And it was really the equipment. If I would have given her a fixed scope that I picked at the gun store, your range is pretty much 200 yards, if that. Yeah.

So it really does have to do with your equipment and what you're shooting. And every time I start thinking that I know what I'm doing with long range, I sit down with some of the guys that run the gunworks operation and they start talking about all the variables that could happen in a shot. It's over my head. Right. It is. But I'll say this, that at long range shooting, usually if I range the animal and I shoot,

I'm never, it should never be above or below the animal, the shot. Usually the real obstacle is the wind, right? The wind is really what makes it so tough to make those shots at 600 yards. The wind doesn't do a whole lot, but when you start getting farther and farther out there, then the wind has a lot to do with your shots.

So anyone that's getting in long range or is a first-time shooter, always be aware of the wind. That's the biggest, biggest thing that's going to mess you up on long range. If you have, like I said, the same system like we have, where you got a built-in reticle or you have the turrets on top where you dial it, the range finder, you plug in the system, pretty much the profile of your gun in there. So

So Gunwerks, they had the BR-4 binocular that they had, but now they just created a binocular.

the Revic binos and now you can plug in the system in there too which is really nice so now rather than carrying a monocular and a pair of binos now I just have a pair of binos that does all the homework for me right so now I got my binos that I can timber pound with and pick apart the terrain or if I have a long range shot I range the binoculars it tells me exactly what the dial for my MOA and you just dial and shoot

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Long range shooters that are comfortable, accurate with their, their shots. That's, they don't just buy a gun, buy the ammo, load it up and head to the woods when, you know, they spend some time behind the gun, right? You have to under, like you're talking about the wind, right?

Learning how to cope with wind conditions and knowing if there's too much wind or if it's good and you can send it, or it's like, okay, there's a little bit of wind and I can compensate. You don't learn that just by...

Not practicing. You have to practice with your gun. You have to spend some time understanding how that wind affects it. You know, whether, let's say the wind's blowing on your side of the ridge this way, it could be blowing a different opposite way over there, you know, and identifying, you

wind currents and all that. I mean, we could go down a rabbit hole for a couple hours on just wind in itself. But I'm just trying, the point I'm trying to make is you have to spend that time with your, your gun to understand it and become a proficient shooter. And then understanding how to execute a perfect shot. I could get on a, on a rifle and, and shoot at a, at a distant target and I could probably hit okay.

But someone who has been practicing and using the right techniques and body postures to shoot...

is going to out shoot me in every day because they execute the shot so much differently so there's a lot to it it's not just holding the gun up and looking through crosshairs and squeezing a trigger off um there's a lot of like best practices while doing that to execute that shot as perfectly as possible so you get those those really good hits at distance yeah so yeah and i and i'm going to compare it to archery hunt too just because i do we do a lot of archery hunt

People see our long range shots like, oh, you should try to do it with the bow. Well, watch our videos. We do a lot of archery hunting. The one thing I will say with archery, it's the same thing. If all you do, you sit at a target and you sight in your bow and you take it to the woods. I mean, I can't tell you, you know, I know people that seem to like wound a lot of animals with a bow and arrow and they're just not practicing, right? All they're doing is sitting at a target.

They dial their bow and it's like, oh, I got my 20, 30, 40, 50 dialed. Okay, I'm good for hunt season. Yeah. You haven't practiced shooting. No. Like you're just dialed your bow in and then you hang it on the shelf and you wipe the dust off and ready to go hunt. Same thing with the rifle. I feel like a lot of people, they zeroed in at the target range and then they put it in the gun safe. Like, all right, when hunt season comes,

I'm going to go shoot. I can't, I mean, it cracks me up. And again, I'm not trying to make fun of people, but I'll see, I'll drive down the mountain. I'll see some guy shooting beer cans with his rifle. This makes sure his gun is on. He's shooting 25 yards. Yeah. And then he's about ready to go elk hunt. And it's like, Ooh, like this guy's going to be in the woods with me, you know, like go to a grunt range.

And practice, you know, get your hundred yards dialed or if you want it at 200 yards, whatever you prefer.

Get it dialed in, zero it in, and then go from there. Yeah. You have to practice. Yeah. You know, the guys that I see that actually do really good with archery are the guys that attend these archery shoots, right? I think it really does challenge you. Yeah. I really love doing archery shoots because I go and I was like, wow, like it gives me confidence. I'm shooting downhills. I'm shooting uphills. It's good to practice that if you have a range where you can practice. Okay. Cause downhill shots are different than shooting uphill. Yes. Practice all those angles.

If you're doing long range, practice shooting in the wind. Don't shoot like I'm only going to shoot on a calm day and then all of a sudden you have a 15 mile an hour wind. And then, you know what I mean? For me, when I make a shot, I have to be comfortable shooting. There is no... I think everybody tries to rewrite what ethics are, right? Right. Everybody's like, this is what ethics are. The ethic is...

If it's over this range, you should not shoot. There's no written rule on what's ethical and what's not and how far you shoot an animal. What's ethical is where you feel comfortable shooting. How far do you feel comfortable shooting? Some people may only feel comfortable shooting 40 yards with a bow. Some guys, they can drill bulls at 80 yards all day long. Now, if they have a bull elk that's 80 yards, I'm not going to be upset if I see them

take a shot like that because I know they're comfortable at doing it. Right? It's the same with the rifle. Like, if there's guys that suck at shooting over 500 yards, they shouldn't be shooting that range. No, absolutely. But if you're, if these are guys that are at the range and they're shooting 1,000 yards all day long and then they have an animal at 750 or 800 yards, by all means, take the shot. Right. You feel comfortable shooting, do it. There's very, very few times in my life that I've taken a 1,000 yard shot on an elk. Actually, only one time and I wasn't planning on it.

It was either, it was a, it was a scenario thing. It's like, okay, like, should I try to get close to the bowl or should I shoot from here? You know? And Travis and I were just kind of talking with amongst each other. He's like, just take a rest and see how you feel. I rested on the ground. If I didn't feel comfortable, I wasn't going to take the shot. The bowl was raking a tree. He was completely occupied. I rested and I told Travis, I'm like, I am so still like I am rock solid. So Trav,

It's like, well, if you feel comfortable, there is no wind at all that's going to disturb the bullet. You know, we each practice at that range a lot. You should take the shot. This bull's raking a tree. He's not going to walk out of the screen. So the other step I'd like to do too is you don't want to do this with a bow. You never want to dry fire a bow, but it's okay to dry fire a rifle. Right. So take the bullet out. Just shoot it a couple times.

It makes two snap, two empty dry fire shots. Yeah. A couple of dry fire shots until you feel comfortable. I've done this with friends that have never shot a long range before where they're shooting like, or, or like, I'll tell you about my friend who had a mountain goat tag. I was telling you about that. He was the last mountain goat tag of this area.

never shot a long range gun before we get to the mountain going at 400 yards. I said, Hey, how do you feel at shooting? He's like, I'm actually a sucky shot. And I'm like, at first my heart's thinking like, Oh no, this is going to be bad. But 400 yards is a cheap, is a easy shot with this gun that I had. So I'm like, all right, let's do some practice trigger pulls. So we took the bullets out and the, and the goats not going anywhere. He's on the hillside, you know? So I'm like, all right, pull the trigger. See how you feel. Shh.

He shoots, he, you know, he, he shoots, he, it clicks, right? No, no bullet in there. I was like, okay, how do you feel? He said, I closed my eyes. I was like, do it again. He did it again. Click. It's like, how'd that feel? Better. Like do it again. We did it like five or six times. By the sixth time I was like, how do you feel? He's like, that goat would have been dead. I was like, tend to throwing around, throwing around. He drilled that goat. So sometimes it calms the nerves too. Yeah.

Whatever it takes to calm the nurse. What's great with long range, you have the time. When I edit a video, I try to be entertaining. But if you're actually to watch the whole video, we're sitting there 20 to 30 minutes on an animal to where it stands at the perfect time. It's not going to walk out because that bullet takes time to get to the animal. If the animal's walking and you're shooting a long range, it can go from being a perfect shot to a wound.

Right. You want to find where the animal is occupied. Is it eating? Is it laying down? Something that, like I said, the bull elk for me, it was raking a tree. He was raking a tree, completely occupied. I sent it, shot it, drilled him right behind the shoulder. So something that occupies him is another thing. You take your time. You have all the time in the world. If it's a rush out, if it's an animal walking out of a clearing and it's 800 yards, you just don't shoot. Right. This time you're going to have to move in close to get a shot on him. So there's a lot of obstacles with long range shooting.

But it takes, we've talked about this before, it takes practice and it takes time. The one thing I really like with Gunworks is they simplify it for the average person in the sense of like they do the reloads for you too. You know, someone who works a lot, sometimes a person doesn't have time to do reloads. And what reloads are is you're pretty much, you're assembling everything.

for someone who's never done it or know what that is, you're assembling the brass, the gunpowder, and the bullet yourself. Right. There's a lot of technique and technical work there too to be identified and executed to have a really good round to shoot. It is. And I'll be honest in saying that you'll always get a more accurate load with a reload than any other way.

However, there is some good factory loads out there. There is some. And Gunwerks, they've kind of perfected it in their own way where they have found that if they do it this way with this caliber, it works well. And so they can produce it to where they can get it to you and you don't have to do those reloads. And so I have a Gunwerks round where I didn't have to reload those. And I'm teeing in thousand yard plates all day with that.

And, and so if you don't have the time, like I said, if some people just work, they don't have the time to sit there and take a full day off to try to figure out what load your gun takes. Well, that's another option for you is to go through them. Um, and again, I'm not trying to be like an, you know, like buy Gunworks, but I'm not trying to be a commercial. I'm not trying to be a commercial. I'm just saying that you use, that's what I use. And I've, we've been using Gunworks on and off for years, you know? So we went with Gunworks originally, um,

And then we tried some other stuff and we came back to Gunwerks just because we know how they work and they're very innovative. We really like what they do. And what did you think of the gun? So you, for the couple of days, I've had you, you're holding a couple different of my guns and you held the seventh Psalm last night from Gunwerks.

What was your opinion on that gun? Well, we were walking along. You're like, what do you think of that gun? I said, this is my new favorite gun. Like, I need one of these things. What was it that you liked about that 7.7? It's compact. It's light. I don't like a big, long, heavy rifle. A rifle with a barrel that's 28 inches long, 30 inches long, that's...

that's just, it's hard to maneuver, especially in the kind of country I hunt and in the kind of country you hunt. You know, big timber, it's just hard to pack around a big heavy gun through the woods constantly. This thing was light. It pointed really easily and quickly. You know, when you shoulder it, I was on target right away. And then if you're packing a gun without a sling all day long,

Your arms get fatigued. Yeah. Imagine a 15 pound gun in your arms. Oh, no way. I'd have just said, Tom, no, I'll use my knife. Yeah. I'm going to kill this wolf with a knife. I'm not going to pack that gun. Yeah. So I loved it. It was a really, really lightweight, compact gun. And yes, I will agree in the sense that like, you know, heavier guns, longer barrels, it seems to, they say more accuracy, but yeah,

you know, you're asking me like, well, how far is this gun get out to? You know, it's a light gun. It's an 18 inch barrel. I'm like, I was, I smoked my Muley at 880 last year. One shot. Then my friend, I gave him the gun. It was like, I think it was either 840 or 860 and he shot his Muley with it. Yeah. And I was like, that's a,

Pretty dang accurate gun. And that thing is just, it's nothing. It feels like a toy gun. Yeah, it does feel like a toy gun. Yeah. Super lightweight. And I got it built like that for purpose, just for the sense of like, you know, I hunt in the best of both worlds of hunting the timber country and the open country. That was probably one of my, you know, originally when we first got in the long range, we were packing those heavy guns around in the timber. Yeah. And then you have this big scope where it's like five and a half power by,

you know, 22 or 23 power that you're in those five and a half power. And, you know, when you see that elk in the timber and it's point blank, you pull up and you're like, you're seeing hair and you're like, got to try to find the kill zone. But I like, you know, for me in scope choice, if you're, so if you're in the market of buying a scope, it's like, okay, well, what can I buy for the best of both worlds? I like a scope that,

that at least three power, three power, I can shoot really good at that close range. I like three power. And then I try to get the farthest power possible that Leopold, I had, it's a, it's a three, it's a three by 18. Yeah. Yeah. And you shoot Leopold too, right? Yep. Yep. And what's your opinion on that? Um, yeah, I, I'm the same, the same, uh, thoughts. Um,

Especially for new shooters. If you haven't shot rifles a lot in heavy timber conditions or even sometimes open countries, like a new hunter.

Sometimes it's really hard to acquire the target, right? So having that three power, you're not looking at hair, right? You look through the sight picture and it's like, okay, I see a pretty wide view. Oh, there's a deer. Okay, I see it now. It's easier to acquire your target, I guess I should say. A little easier with that lower power, especially in big timber. Exactly. And also too, you want to do is you always, even if at long range and you're zoomed up,

I'm just throwing this out there. Anytime you make a shot, zoom back down really quick because what happens is you shoot an animal. Like I said, if you zoomed up, it's great because you can see detail. The downside with being zoomed up, it's harder to find your target. The more zoomed up you are, the harder it is to find your target. People shoot and they're like, they need to make another shot. It's like, I can't find the animal. As soon as we shoot, the first thing we try to do is to get back on the animal. If you don't see it, zoom down, find him again. If you have time to zoom up, do. If not,

ranging, make a shot, zoom down. The farther you zoom down, the quicker it is to find the target. Yep. The end of story. Yep. So that's just a habit you have to get yourself into. These habits can be done. You could train yourself with these habits now before you end up in the woods. When you have a scenario where you have a bull of a lifetime,

you mess up and you're like, oh, shoot, I could have, would have, should have, could have, no, no. You should have figured that. You should have done all that practicing before you ended up in the woods with your equipment. So again, and I also brought up a story yesterday about a really good friend of mine I went to high school with. And I saw his success change from when he was in high school to now. I asked him, what's different now? Because before you were struggling with killing stuff. Now you're whacking and stacking.

What is it you're doing now that you weren't before? He says, Tom, I've been putting in the time. And I'm like, that's really like the biggest foundation for hunters is putting in the time. You need to put in not just the time in hunting your animals, but the time in knowing your equipment and shooting it. I said, I know really good hunters. So it's fine. It goes both ways. I know guys that are really skilled shots, but they suck at hunting. I know guys that are really good at finding animals, but they suck at shooting. Yeah.

And you got to perfect both. That's what's going to make you the ultimate killer.

There's no, there's no cheating it. There's no shortcuts. Yeah. I mean, I think there's some shortcuts as in you can learn from other people and maybe be mentored or take some courses, learn these things. And then, but, but you have to put them in practice. You can't just be like, oh yeah, they told me this and then think you're going to go out and accomplish it. I mean, you still have to put, put in the time. Yeah. You have to put in the time scouting. You have to put in the time.

You have to put the time shooting. And I love this part. We, you were talking earlier about, um, shooting your bow in your backyard. And this relates exactly with, with rifles too. Yeah.

Everyone is a pro in their own backyard. Everyone probably shoots really good at the range, right? You have a nice solid rest. You can calm yourself. You can shoot very accurately. It's like, man, my gun is awesome. And at a hundred yards or 200 yards, wherever, however far the range is, it's a set distance. It's never changing. It's a very comfortable place to shoot.

Now you go to total archery challenge with your bow in your backyard. Oh, I drill a hundred yards targets all day. You go to the total archery challenge. It is a whole different world.

So you have to really temper your expectations of what you're, what you think your, your maximum shot distance is, whether it's archery or rifle. So when you get to, and you put yourself in these situations like, oh yeah, I can hit, I can hit a, an elk at 80 yards because I do a hundred in my backyard. Well, you go to the total archery challenge and you have to shoot at a 13 degree downhill angle. And all of a sudden you're,

your arrow don't even hit the elk or it hits it in the butt. Right. Hold on from everything from shot execution to maybe you don't have your third access dialed on your, on your site. Right. Same with rifle. Like, um, I know I've got good friends that do a lot of long range shooting. Um,

Once they got their, okay, I'm on paper, everything's dialed, and my gun is grouping, I know it's accurate. Now, they don't sit there at the range and just pound targets at the range all the time. What they do is they go out in the field and they go,

to areas that would be similar to where they're hunting and they're starting to make their same shots that would be similar to what you would make in real world conditions. They find a big rock bluff, you know, maybe they're taking a very vertical shot up or down, um, long distance. It's windy. It's a big Canyon. There's different wind currents from one side to the other. Now they're testing what they think they know about shooting long distance. And it's very surprising. It's like, wow, I can hit really good at the range, but

I need to make, I need to do some work out here in the field. So you understand how to hold for wind, you know, or dial for wind. And you start understanding your limitations. You start understanding, you know, your rifle's performance, how just laying differently, squeezing differently, holding the gun differently affects your shot so dramatic compared to sitting on a bench.

exactly and and you brought something up really important too so when we anytime like so for example we got a hunt that come you know if we were hunting miami that terrain is so different you're in higher elevation different altitude um different barometric pressure everything there's a lot of things that go into like going into a new area right we like to pop a rock before the hunt starts over there we're like we're in a new area let's see how we're shooting yeah

See, see if the gun's on. If it's not, then we have to figure something else out before the season starts. We like to go into a hunt a couple of days early. Now, are we doing an area we're going to hunt? No. Are we doing an area where other people are camp? No, we were, we were really careful where we do that at. And we want to make sure that we just want to make sure that when we hunt the animal, we're going to hit it. Now can mistakes still happen? Absolutely.

And the one thing that I want to bring up too is let's say you do wound an animal and you can't find it. Don't let that eat you apart to where you put your gun in the safe and you never want to touch it again. I've seen the same thing with bow hunters. Some guys, they wound an animal and they can't find it. They discourage, they feel really bad about the elk, and they hang up their bow and they say, I'm never going to go archery hunting again. That just felt too bad to wound an animal.

Do I feel bad when that happens? Absolutely. I get sick to my stomach. But I think the most important thing is to get back on the horse and you should just learn from that. Like, okay, that sucked.

I don't want to do that again. What can I do to make myself a better shot? What went wrong? How do I fix it? Yeah. How do I fix that? And then move forward. That's what makes a good hunter. You can look at it. I don't care how good of a shot you are. Look at every hunter that you know. It could be on Instagram. It could be YouTubers. Everybody at one point makes mistakes. I will laugh in someone's face if they said they killed 20 bullock and they've never wounded an elk. I will laugh in their face because I know it's not true.

every person has made a mistake at one point in their life and you know it's just the question is is how many how many of those animals you killed were killed successfully you know what i mean mistakes do happen you just got to move forward and make sure it doesn't happen again you always focus on that yeah so and i'm all about that i'm all about just like being a better hunter yeah and and hey look i even i could this year if i feel like i'm the best shooter in the world

I don't hang up the gun because you can get out of practice pretty quick too. I've noticed that with archery hunt too. If I like skip a year, it's like, okay, I've, I've been shooting every day with my bow. I feel really good. And the next year I'm like, oh yeah, I know what I'm doing. Then you don't, I don't shoot my bow for a period of time. It could be four or six months and I take it to the archery shoot. Also, and I pick up bad habits. I'm like, why am I not hitting the targets? I'm like, oh yeah. I'm like,

I'm shooting my trigger rod. You know what I mean? And the one thing I noticed, and again, I'm kind of getting off topic, but I was noticing something this spring. I was like, you know, I was a little out of practice. My bow got stolen last fall. And so then I went a few months without a bow.

I got a brand new bow, got a new release. And this spring I was in an archery shoot. I was all over the place. The first four targets. And I'm like, what am I doing wrong? All of a sudden I just started paying attention to my trigger pulling. I realized that I wasn't, my finger wasn't even on the trigger by the time I would be like this far off away from the trigger, like just like a quarter inch. And then I'd hit my trigger right when I felt like my crests were on. You're just punching it. I was punching it. And as soon as like, okay, chill the freak out, Tom.

keep your finger on that trigger and just pull slowly, you know? And then I started doing that and a big change. Like my, then I was hitting where I needed to, you know, on the targets throughout the course. I'm not a professional archer, but I can kill the target. You know what I mean? That's my goal is to kill the target. Right. I'm not a, I'm not a 10 X shooter, but I'm always trying to kill the target. That's kind of how I do that. But just going back to shooting, um,

Like just because you feel like you're a good shot now because you've been practicing doesn't mean to hang up the gun. Just consistently shoot. Same thing with long range. You can easily get out of practice. Rush shots, people just, it's good to have a second guide.

It's vice versa. Sometimes Travis is there with me and I'm like, I'm getting antsy. I want to shoot this bull elk and he's at 800 yards and I feel like he's getting away. Travis is like, calm down. Calm down. You're too wiggly. I see you shaking. Calm down. Like Adam on his sheep this year or last fall. I was like, Adam, I see your heartbeat through your shirt. You need to calm down, Adam. It's good to have extra people there to

to be there to help you out because along there's a lot that does go into long range shot and and so um that's another advice like if you were at a long range shoot i feel more comfortable taking farther shots if i had somebody next to me right like there's some shots i won't take i'm like if i had somebody next to me i'd take it but means i don't to spot my shot i'm not going to risk the shot i'll just get in closer that makes sense yeah absolutely well i love it um

Well, man, thanks, Tom. I appreciate you coming on. We're hitting an hour here and we don't typically like to go any further than that. I feel like we could, I honestly feel like we could talk all day about what will you have been? We've been hunting for, uh, three and a half days together and we've talked nonstop, like two school girls about elk hunting, this elk hunting, that mule deer hunting, wolf hunting. Like we've covered the gamut of every kind of hunting that you guys, your feet, you and your family have done. And, um,

And we're still talking about new stuff today. Like we haven't talked about this stuff much. Well, and I see your passion about elk hunting too, because it's like, you know, because you're running with Phillips game calls and stuff. And sometimes you think somebody hunts an animal so much. It's like, oh yeah, it's just another elk.

But you're... When I hear you talk about elk, it's... I can see it's your life and your blood. Yeah. That's all... That's on your mind. You're just like... You're telling me stories, just stories after story after story of all these elk experiences you have. And some are big bulls and some bulls are like average bulls. Yeah. But like some of those bulls like that you've killed that were average are sometimes like I say, like I could tell like...

That was more of a memorable experience than some of the bigger bulls that you killed. Yeah. Just because, and I think that's really neat to see your passion in elk hunting. And, and that, you know, it's like, it shows me that you really love what you do. Yeah. And I'd like to say the same thing about you too, is like your enthusiasm in which you talk about your stories and you tell all about all these different experiences you've had. And then I see your trophy room, which I,

I don't know if you can hang another set of elk horns or deer horns on the wall here, but this isn't all of them. I mean, then, then you're, this is your, this is your dad's house in the, in, in his, in his downstairs trophy room. Then he's got like a workshop area and the walls are covered with antlers in there. Um, and I know you and your brothers all have antlers at your houses. Um, it's incredible. And then when you, you talk and you show me to the places you hunt, like,

You take one look at this country and you immediately, in my mind, says, there's nobody that's going to kill anything here unless you are 100% committed and passionate about

climbing up through these nasty thick forests, you know, up these steep slopes to the higher elevation or just, you know, punching through timber, whatever it, it, it takes a lot of dedication. Um, and I feel like sometimes people see success and,

And they don't understand the work that goes behind that success. And I know this firsthand, but spending this time with you this week just really reinforces that. It's like, I think you and your family are incredible people. Besides just the hunting accomplishments.

Your family is just amazing. You know, I've enjoyed so much, you know, spending my time here visiting with them and I only got to see, you know, part of your family. I haven't even got to, you know, spending time with your other brothers. Yeah. So I look forward to that at some point too. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Most everybody's working. I guess Travis is sheep hunting right now. And yeah, I know everybody's kind of like,

Gone doing other things right now, but trying to get ready for archery elk season, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, this, this episode, I kind of messed up, but I didn't read any, any, um,

listener questions. But I'm just going to throw this out there for some of the next episodes. If you guys have any questions you want to hear me or my guests answer, email us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com and give us your question. Or better yet, I have a super secret phone number you can call in

And you can leave a message. You leave a detailed message. It can't be over three minutes. And then that message, ask the question. Ask your question about whatever it is, whether it's calling or hunting tips or whatever, any kind of big game animals or predators. And we'll do our best to answer that question. And that super secret phone number is 208-

219-7701 and leave that message. Keep it under three minutes and we'll do our best. So anyway, thanks again, Tom. It's been a pleasure and look forward to our new next adventure together in the near future. Absolutely. Thank you.

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