Ep. 48: Dirk and Clay Hays
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This week, we have a very special guest sitting across from my good buddy, Clay Hayes. I'm in beautiful Boise, Idaho. It's a little different scenery for Clay. You live in northern or central Idaho, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Clay Hayes, let me introduce you to him if you've been living under a rock for the last few years. Clay, I've been following him for years. He makes primitive bows, self-bows.

He's been putting out all sorts of videos and content for, I don't know, probably over a decade. Easily over a decade. The man lives off the land.

To my dismay here, a couple of years ago, I'm watching TV and I see season eight of Alone coming on and they're showing the people on it. And I see Clay on there. I was like, oh, man, these other suckers don't have a chance. I was so excited to watch that. So Clay competed on Alone.

the TV series, popular TV series alone, and end up winning the whole dang thing. So that was crazy. So give us a little more background, Clay. How did you start building bows? What made you go building bows and kind of just learn how to do that live off the grid type lifestyle and bushcraft type stuff? Yeah. For me, it was just always...

part of my interest, I think it's part of the same thing that draws you to hunting, draws me to hunting. It's just something that's in us that you can't quite put your finger on, you know, and I've always been drawn to archery and all types of hunting. Um, and just the way I differ. And I think a lot of people are like that when they're young, you know, they, they're, they're interested in, in various things, but then they kind of grow out of it. Um, I just never grew out of it. It just got

Eventually, I got to the point where I could make a living doing it, even though that wasn't part of the plan to start with. It just kind of happened. So I kept making bows, kept doing the survival bushcraft type thing, and eventually find myself here where I'm... That's what I do for a living, by some miracle. Man, I love that. It's great. I feel like it's so authentic when people follow...

the things that they love, you know, um, like I remember as a kid starting out with archery, you know, we built, built bows out of, out of cedar limbs and fishing, fishing line. Right. You know, and, and, you know, as soon as I could get my hands on a bow, I wanted one. And, um, it's awesome to see you like start from, from just the love of archery and then just go compounds and, and continues throughout your life. And, and it, it's,

You don't do it for fame or fortune. You did it because you like it. You love it. It's just who you are. And I think that's what I admire most about you is you just do it because that's who you are. Yeah. And if I had... Like I said, this wasn't part of the plan. I didn't really have a plan. And if I had had a plan and my goal was to make a living doing this stuff, I probably would have never stuck with it because...

I did this stuff for a long time. I made YouTube videos for a long time before I ever made any money at all. I was just doing it because I like doing it. I was teaching people how to make bows through videos on YouTube. That's the way I started. But I like the bow making. I like making the videos, like the process of that creative process.

And I was good at it. And so that's why I did it. And like I said, somehow just ended up making money and that grew enough to where I could support my family. And I was a wildlife biologist for Idaho Fish and Game for 10 years while I was doing YouTube videos as well and ended up

Taken off from that in 2017, and we've been doing this ever since. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. I remember watching one of your videos when you were working for the fishing game, and you were floating down a remote stream. Oh, yeah. And you were checking...

Some kind of collars. I think I was picking up wolf collars or elk collars, one or the other. Yeah, I can't remember what kind of collars it was, but I was familiar with the stream. I was like, man, that looks awesome. It wasn't like you were going down through there during whitewater season. It looked pretty low. Oh, it was real low. I was scrubbing my butt on the bottom of rocks pretty much the whole time. Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah.

Well, you know, the reason I had you come on today is you're a longtime elk hunter. I'm a longtime elk hunter. And I think, you know, after you talk to a lot of folks who are successful in the field over the years, and a lot of people do it differently. At face value, you look at how they hunt and it's like kind of at face value, it looks different. But you sit down and have a conversation and you start seeing like these little nuances that kind of cross paths.

paths, you know, in tactics. And so today I want to kind of talk about tactics for September elk season and beyond. We get a lot of questions at Phelps, whether it's on social media or what. And you guys can always message us. You can send us a message, an email, and the email is ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com.

and we'll answer your question here on the air best we can. And we have this new thing. I'm just starting here, and we have a super secret phone number that you call into, and you can call in, leave a message. Your message has to be under three minutes because if it's over three minutes, it'll cut you off. But the phone number is 208-219-7701.

and call in, leave a message with your question, and we'll play it on the line on the air here, and we'll do our best to answer it, whether it's me or Jason or maybe one of our guests. Anyway, we'll get back into the conversation. So I've got some questions, and here's one. This is obviously from someone who hunts Utah, and the question is, what kind of calling tactics would you use in early season Utah? Okay.

And I'm not personally, I'm not real familiar with exact dates in Utah, but I know archery elk opens in most units mid August. And then it runs through mid September, I think for, for archery. And, um, you know, what would your tactics be on that, in that August, August 1st?

timeframe opener. Um, I've never hunted that season myself, but if you were to say, all right, I'm going to Utah tomorrow because here we are, it's well, it's not even, it's like the beginning of, okay, I'm going to go to Utah in two weeks. Um, what kind of tactics do you think you're going to use? Are you going to be doing a lot of calling? Well, I've never hunted down there like you, I've never hunted that, you know, pre September, but I have hunted pre rut in, you know, in Idaho. Um,

And I hunt probably very different than you guys do. If they're not talking...

I'm not out there trying to make something bugle. I'm not talking a lot myself. I do a lot of just sitting on hills glass and trying to find where they're at. And then I still hunt a lot. But like I said, my objectives are probably different than yours. I hunt with primitive lures.

bow and arrow. And so I don't limit myself to, you know, trophy animals or anything. I'm just trying to kill an elk because the opportunity, I have to get super close and the opportunities to get that close, uh, you don't have to take the opportunities that I, that I get. And sometimes that's a cow. And I'm, if I shoot a cow, I'm stoked.

Heck yeah. And so I'll sit on the ridge and I'll glass the opposite faces. I'll try to find where they're feeding. I get into like the freshest sign that I can get into. And I just still hunt my way through those feeding areas when they're actively feeding early morning, late evening type stuff. And yeah,

If I'm hunting in an area where they're hitting up wallows at that time, I'll be sitting on a wallow, especially midday, early afternoon, something like that. So as far as calling goes, I'm not doing much of it unless sometimes I'll do really light cow calls if I'm still hunting and I can't avoid making noise. If I have to make noise, I'll cow call just

to let them know or make them think that I'm an elk. I'm not trying to call anything to me at that time of year, in other words. Trying to disguise your movements. Now, for some of our listeners that may be new to hunting, can you break down what still hunting is all about? How do you still hunt? Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So for me, and I've been still hunting, you know, for years,

a long time. I started still hunting when I still lived in Florida. And in Mississippi, I went to grad school in Mississippi. I still hunt whitetails on the ground with a bow. And basically what I'm doing is I'm picking out a likely area where they're going to be feeding around. And I'm just really slowly slipping my way through there, trying to see an animal or detect an animal somehow before they know I'm there.

Um, and so a lot of times you're standing still, you know, you're standing still more than you're walking, but you're, you're moving, you know, you're, it's, it's, and that's how it differs from sitting in a tree stand is you're, you're mobile, but I'm not just like walking through the woods, you know, I'm stopping, looking, listening, observing, again, trying to find that animal before they find me. And then once I find that animal, then I'm,

It moves from still hunting to stalking. You know, you're trying to figure out how you can get in position so that animal comes to you. Or maybe if it, in the case of elk, where you've got, where you can move a little bit more, say versus whitetails, you know, you may be actively stalking that animal, like actively trying to get close enough to that animal. And that's last year,

I didn't kill one during the archery season last year, but the year before, that's how I killed a cow that I killed. I was just still hunting through a likely spot of feeding cover.

and saw her and there was just a little bit of topography between us and was able to just wait till she had her head down feeding and I would move, wait till she went behind a bush, I would move and I would just the whole time I'm just cutting the distance getting a little bit closer, a little bit closer. Ended up getting within 25 yards of her and waited till she turned broadside, was able to get a good shot on her.

In my mind, as you're describing that, I'm picturing you, but then I picture like a mountain lion. It's the same thing. So that's what I'm targeting is behaving basically like a mountain lion. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so basically get up high, do a lot of glassing, try to locate your game first, try to find your elk first. And then, okay, I see where they're at. They're over on this other hillside. Then...

Quickly, quietly move over there and then slow way down and then work your way through that area. When you can glass them and get there within a reasonable amount of time, that's good. But oftentimes you can't do that because in the mornings they're on their way up to their bedding area. And so to start over here, cross the valley and get over here and get above them without spooking them, you can't do that. At least in the country that I hunt.

And so a lot of times what I'll do is I'll, I'll glass them up one day, maybe in the evening or something like that. And then I, the next day I'm there, I'm where they, where I expect them to be. So I'm trying to be there before they get there. Um,

sometimes work sometimes then okay yeah yeah i get it all right well so i would probably approach that season the same way usually my my easy answer when people ask me that is like well i just go ahead and wait two weeks and and i don't go i wouldn't go until probably september 1st because my my elk hunting is typically very um calling heavy like you talked about um

Um, but if I was kind of pushed into a corner, I was like, well, this is your only shot. You got this, the opening week or, or, you know, maybe you have a long weekend, you know, um, I would, I would probably do something along those similar lines. I would, you know, try to glass and try to find them first and then, um, dial it in from there. I'm still hunting, you know,

growing up in North Idaho, whitetail hunting with a rifle. I'd done a ton of still hunting as a young guy and I still do when I can. And up there, you know, I'd always try to find a heavy stand of timber

You know, kind of that fringe area between where they feed through and then where they go bed down. And then I would just still hunt through there in the early morning light. And like you say, you have to move slow. So, you're doing more standing than moving. And when I move, I don't move quickly. I move real slow to where I want to see that deer before...

he sees me or she sees me. That's what everything hinges on is, is, and that's why you have, it's so important that you move so slowly because you're, you're much more likely to see those deer, you know, if you're stationary and they're moving. And that's, that's another reason why it's important to, to get into an area where they're going to be feeding because it, um, when like still hunting through a bedding area where when they're bedded is like,

almost impossible. Right. Because the only thing that they have to focus on when they're bedded is watching for you. And they're stationary. Yep. So, but if you can, if you can get them, if you can find them where they're up feeding or transitioning or something like that,

then it's very doable, especially with elk. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's not an elk, but white tail does, they've got eyes. They will. I don't know. I don't think I've ever had anything pick me off so easily as a white tail though, maybe turkeys, but,

But they will see you. I was, you know, and like I was talking about, I kind of get in that fringe area, but then I won't enter the bedding area. I'll sit down at the edge of it and maybe I'll do some calling. So this will be like during the rut, for instance. So I would probably do the same thing, you know, with elk calls. I'd get close to where, well, they're...

I think they might even be bedded in here. Maybe I'll just sit down and make a few quiet calls just for a little curiosity. Maybe one will get out of its bed and kind of wander over to me. Um, I've had, I've done that with deer a lot. You get to the edge of that bedding area and do some grunts or some bleats. And pretty soon there's a buck standing there looking at you. Um,

But I've had does come walking by and I had a pair of boots that had really bright yellow soles. They were some, they were some pack boots I had and I'm sitting on my butt and I'm wearing camo and, and I'm blending in pretty good, but my, my feet are sitting up and then the bottom, some of my, of my shoe soles are just, just glowing like beacons. And man, that white tail doe walked over there and she immediately saw those boots and ran off. So that was fun.

So I would say the next, uh, part of September to talk about would be like September 1st through the 10th or so. Um, do your tactics change at all there? Um, maybe, maybe it does a little. Our seasons, uh,

like when the rut gets kicked off for me, in my experience anyway, it's been super variable. Like I've been down, uh, where we're hunting now and haven't seen any rutting activity till like the eighth or ninth of September, like no rubs, no nothing. And then I've been down there on the first and they're just going nuts. Uh, and so I just go and, and

I basically mirror the elk's activity. If they're not talking, if they're not rutting, I'm still hunting. I'm class and I'm trying to find them. If they're talking, then, you know, what I like to do, I'll most often...

Like I don't do a lot of location, locating bugles. I just wait for them to give themselves away. And I don't say anything until I try to cut the distance. I try to get as close as I can and then I might bugle at them or something like that. And so I'm basically just looking at the elk, trying to figure out what they're doing. And I just mirror their level of activity.

Okay. So you don't really want to let, announce your presence or alert them until you're really close. And then now they have a reason to come take a look at what's making those calls. I mean, if they're, I'll throw out some location bugles sometimes, especially pre-dawn, like in the dark, just trying to figure out where they're at. But once I know where they're at, I don't, I don't.

tell them I don't talk again until I'm, until I figure I'm pretty doggone close. Okay. Now what kind of calls once you get real close? Are you, are you ripping bugles? Are you cow calling? Are you doing a little bit of both? Mostly bugles. Mostly bugles. And again, I'm just, I'm just mirroring what they're doing. You know, if they're, if they're wanting to get aggressive, I'll get aggressive with them. Um, and if they're just kind of half-hearted bugling, I'll do that. Okay.

Yeah, I like it. That's very similar to kind of what I do to a degree. So, I'll do more. Usually, if it's September 1st through the 10th, I'm covering a lot of country. I may not use a lot of glass at that point because a lot of times I don't hunt country where you can really glass an elk up. You may be surrounded by a whole sea or a whole drainage full of conifers and there's no opening. So, you could never…

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's so heavily dependent. Like when I, I used to hunt in North Idaho and it's like what you're talking about. It's all conifer. You can't, unless they're standing out in a clear cut, you can't see them. Right. Um, and so in that instance, I'm looking, I'm just visiting likely areas, trying to find good sign. Uh, once I find that good sign, like smoking hot sign, then I'll start still hunting through that area if they're not talking. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

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I'll move through the area and I'll do some bugling for location. And I'll bugle and I'll also add some cow calls. But I found like that first to the 10th, I get less. And this is kind of counterintuitive to what a lot of people may think is I don't use, I don't have a lot of responses to cow calls compared to bugles. I feel like the bulls aren't,

It's like they know. If there's not a lot of bugling going on anyway, they know that there's no hot cows. It seems like the bulls kind of know when the cows start. I think that sweet smell goes all over the mountains. They can start smelling. They can start bugling. But I will say, just like you said, it could be September 1st, and there's bulls chasing cows, and it's a rut fest. And sometimes it's September 15th, and...

there's none of that going on. Um, I've seen bull, I've seen five point bulls, uh, with velvet on September 1st before in full velvet. So I think every year, um, just it's so different. Uh, I think there's a lot of variables there. Yeah. Do you have any tactics for like, um, I remember one of the first years we hunted where we hunt now, it's like,

It's like September 8th or something. I'm still seeing bachelor groups of bulls. I mean, like four or five bulls hanging out together and there's not a cow in sight. Like, what do you do in that type of situation?

That makes it super tough. One thing I will say, I feel like that early season when bulls are still bachelored up or maybe they broke off a little bit, but they're still not too far away. Let's say that you've got a hillside and every little finger ridge has a bull that's like, he's bedding on each little ridge. There might be four bulls in this big, large ridge system. After they separate, they kind of separate a little bit and then kind of space out. But I feel like they're pretty...

territorial still. So what I want to do is I want to get very close to where their bedding area is. And that may be 11, 12 o'clock in the middle of the day. Once I've, if I could hear them bugle or if I could see them, then I'm going to get close to

and then try to strike around midday. Once those, those winds get good and stable, you know, um, I have to watch, I have to watch it though. The very first stable wind is like, okay, well now we got a good uphill wind. Now the thermals have changed. Let's go. But sometimes you got to wait another 30 minutes cause it's can be kind of fickle. Um, but once they get stable for 30 minutes or so, then I'm going to make a move. I'm going to go try to get close to where I think they're bedding. And then I'm going to start doing some bugling and some raking. Um,

Um, and I've had pretty good success with that. And the bulls don't get super mad. Like you don't hear that real emotionally charged bugle like you do, um, September 30th or September 20th. Um, it's more of a, it's just more of a, just an average bugle per se. And as they come in, you never hear them like get,

really mad. I think they're coming in out of curiosity. Like who the heck is that guy? We, I know all the guys in my little bachelor group here. I know we've done some pecking order. Maybe they've separated from their bachelor group, but they have their pecking order and they're still like stationed on those little fingers. Um,

I don't recognize that guy over there. I'm going to go check him out. And a lot of times here they come, they don't seem to be mad, but they're just real curious. And do you find that they're bugling coming in? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times they're bugling. I have had them come in quiet, especially the younger bulls. Like let's say that just like a young raghorn or something like a two and a half year old bull. Those ones don't.

Sometimes those will just be quiet and they'll just kind of come in like, hey, are you my dad? So you have a good idea where a likely bedding area for these bulls are on these ridges. How close are you trying to get into those before you start calling?

I don't want to get, I don't want to stay too far away, but I don't want to get too close. So what I like to do, I like to look on my on X maps and I will look at, first I'll look at the topo map and I'll look and find the most north facing slope.

where I think there could be bedding. And I find that most north facing feature on that finger ridge that we talked about, okay? And then I turn on the satellite imagery and I look for the densest or the darkest timber or vegetation on that north face. And I'll make a mark there. And I typically, I wanna go toward to that spot and get no more than, I don't wanna get any closer than 100 yards before I start doing any calling.

Because a lot of times, depending on the forest, they may be able to pick you off.

um, from a hundred yards, unless it's real thick. Now, if it's real thick, you might be able to get closer than that. But I, I kind of, and after hunting a lot of years, you kind of get that little feeling inside. You, you kind of start trusting your gut and, and I started getting pretty close to the spot and I'm like, I started getting this little feeling like, man, if I go any closer, I'm going to blow them out of here. So I'll usually listen to my gut and then I'll stop, look for somewhere to set up good. So is the wind good? Yeah.

Do I have a couple good shooting lanes? I don't want 12 shooting lanes. I don't want five good shooting lanes. I want maybe one really good one that maybe I can shoot 30 yards and a couple crappy ones I can shoot like five yards.

Because when I set up like that, the elk has to come really close to see my calls. If you have lots of shooting lanes and they can stand out there 60 yards, 70 yards from you, they will typically stand out there 60, 70 yards looking for that elk that's making that noise. So, but I'll get real close and I'll start doing some calls and I will introduce some cow calls, but it'll be mostly bugles and I won't be super aggressive. Yeah.

And I liked what you said earlier. You kind of do what the elk are doing. If they're calling aggressive, you call aggressive. They're calling meek and mild. That's to do the same thing. I like to mirror or copycat what they're doing. If they're a lot of times I'll have, I'll start playing with a bull and he'll kind of just kind of sound like really wimpy and weird, like kind of like he's going through puberty or something. And I,

I'll start messing with him, but I keep pecking at him for a while, you know, and I'm not escalating ever. And then finally he'll escalate. He'll give a real full bugle, like,

And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's good. We're making progress. We're starting to crack the code. It's kind of like when you're a kid, you know, I know you are. What am I? Or I know you are. What am I? I know you are. What am I? Kind of doing that back and forth. You're just trying to get somebody's goat, right? And I feel like by doing that, just pecking at them, and then finally you hear them escalate and get that full bugle, then it's time for me to escalate and do my full bugle. And usually when they do that,

they're going to be on their way pretty soon. Now, and they may come in quick, they may come in slow. You just never know. And how much effort are you putting into like making noise other than your call? So like thudding on the ground and breaking branches and stuff, like how much of that are you throwing in or are you?

Yeah, I make quite a bit of effort. You know, I'll thump around, I'll pick up a rock and tumble it down the hill and I'll grab brush and swish it around or snap some branches and I'll make some noise. I want it to have that realism like there's actually, because elk are noisy when they're undisturbed. They're pretty noisy. We had a, I killed a bull in 2015 that we actually had a bull come in bed within, I

40 yards of us. And he was sitting, he stayed there for 15 minutes. Somehow the wind stayed good the whole time. But he was bugling from his bed and we were calling and, you know, trying to get this other bull that had cows down. He was just over the lip.

It had cows down there and they were bugling back and forth, but that bull down there with the cows wouldn't come up until this other bull got up. And he started walking towards the bull with the cows and I was going to shoot him, but he got behind some brush. He was only like 10 yards, but I couldn't get a shot at him.

He ended up getting our win and spooking. And when he spooked, he, you know, made the hoof thuds and broke some branches. And when he did that, this other bull came up at which I was able to shoot. But it wasn't until, you know, that bull made all the racket just, you know, didn't have anything to do with Bugle. It was just him running around. That's what got that other bull to come up.

That's a very good point. That just adds that realism because what do predators do? They sneak, they're quiet. A lot of humans are that way. They sneak, they're quiet. But when you're trying to call one in, we're not doing the still hunting approach. Now we're making noise. We're banging around. We're beating up on stuff.

When I'm calling for someone else, it's funny because I always think like, man, I hope somebody isn't like looking at me from afar like glass and grim across the canyon. Because especially if they didn't know about elk hunting, right? If they seen me, they'd be like, look at that guy. He's a crazy man. He's running around in circles and he's jumping up and down and he's grabbing trees and throwing rocks. What is going on? So it's just to add in that realism. And I like to kind of say, I

Whenever I'm trying to call bulls, I almost try to turn my... I turn off my human brain and I turn on my elk brain and I do like kind of role play, right? What would an elk do? How would an elk behave? I want to try to mimic those actions and sounds, whether non-vocal ones especially. And that's something that took me a long time to realize coming from...

strictly hunting whitetails in the south to hunting elk out west when I first started hunting elk you know I had looking back at the opportunities I had I was like man I should have killed elk every year you know with a wooden bow

Um, and I could, if I was put into those situations now, but I was just so timid, you know, when I first started hunting elk, cause you don't, you don't do that stuff with white tails. You know, you're like, you do everything that you can to not be, uh, obtrusive in the woods. But with elk, I was just not being aggressive enough.

That's a very good point. And a lot of our listeners and, and folks who want to come out West every year, you know, they're very accomplished whitetail hunters and they come out and they struggle. They're like, man, I just can't figure this out. And it's because it's such a different process for, for elk versus calling elk versus hunting whitetails. Very, very different. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's move into the next week. So we're looking at the 10th through the 20th. What are we doing there? Are we changing tactics at all? Are we looking at things differently? So that's an interesting time period for me because that usually encompasses the period where people show up.

you start getting more people in the woods. Then you have to start taking into account, I'm usually a pretty cautious elk hunter. If I find elk in a base, and I put a lot of time into trying to get away from people and find elk that are undisturbed. Because it's so important for me to get so close,

If I find elk in a basin where I think they're not likely to be bumped by people and the situation isn't right, I'll just watch them and I'll come back another day. But when you get to that September 15th, 17th, 20th,

It's like, you can't, I can't really afford to do that because very, very likely somebody else is going to go in there and find those elk and bump them. And then I have to find them again anyway. Right. You know? So that's the, I think that's the major way that my tactics shift in there is I move from being a very cautious hunter to be much more aggressive because I know somebody else is going to mess those elk up and push them out of the drainage where I know they're at. Um,

But that's the, that's the time when they really, when they start bugling and start rutting, I start seeing rubs, start seeing bulls with cows. Um, that's when I will get up super early, try to get up midway in the slope and start throwing out, um, location bugles and try to figure out what they're doing, where they're going. And then I try to cut them off and get in super close to them. And I'll be a lot more aggressive with my bugling. Um, but like I said, I don't,

my whole game is I'll try to be as quiet and stealthy as I can until I get just as close as I think I can get to them. And I'm trying, I mean, sometimes I'll be getting within 50 yards of them before I ever let them know I'm there. If I can do that, if I can get within 50 yards of a bull that's got cows, there's a real good chance that I'm going to get him to come to me. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I feel like...

A lot of folks where they kind of have a problem is maybe they aren't aggressive enough at the right time. You know, maybe they're cautious, but then you have to be aggressive at the right time. It's like, okay, it's time for me to get close. Instead of, you know, watch from across the hillside, you know, from across the draw. Like, well, they're way out of range and I'm afraid to make a move. I don't want to spook them. But it's like once the elk get into a position to where –

You can close that distance. You should act right. Get in there close, make sure the wind's good and then do some calling. And I've, I found that that works for me too. But, um, I found that a lot of times if I were to like, not just dive right in and get a little bit aggressive at the right times, um,

my opportunity slipped me by the elk. Maybe I had, maybe I did have them talking, you know, I would probably normally I'll have them talking from a little bit of a distance. Um, but if I was to just kind of hang back, you don't want to be a wallflower. Um, you want to, you want to be the person that walks over and asks for the, for the dance, right? You want to go get involved with that elk when their opportunity is right. When is that? That's when the wind is right. And that's when the elk are in a position, they're not going to see it coming from a, uh,

from a great distance from across the draw, you know, maybe use some topography to hide, to mask your movements and then get close and then make your move. So I should, I should mention like when I'm talking about getting super close to these elk, like a lot, most of your audience is probably shooting compounds. Just like, well, if you're in the 50 yard, why don't you just shoot it? Right. Right. You got to understand the weapons I'm hunting with. And I have to get much closer than that. Like if I'm standing on a 3d range at my house,

you know i can make a 50 yard shot fairly regularly but i'm not going to shoot an elk at that distance i need to get for elk i need to get within 30 yards and preferably you know within 20. so

take that into consideration when you listen to what i'm saying what i'm saying oh yeah absolutely um i have some some aspirations to elk hunt with a trad bow um someday and and i've got a three curve at home and i'll shoot if that elk is at 20 yards or less they're in deep trouble but if they're at 25 yards they're not as big of trouble and if they're at 30 yards they're pretty safe yeah you know well it's that shot's got to be close yep it's um

And I think that depends on who the shooter is. Sure. You know, I'm not going to shoot at a whitetail at 30 yards just because it's a much, much smaller target and they're so flipping quick. You know, with an elk, the size of an elk, I feel very confident at 30 yards with my bow. But I haven't always been that way, you know. Several years ago, I would have been, I would have said, all right, 20 yards, you know.

And I wouldn't have shot at anything probably over that, but it just depends on what you're, where you're at in your shooting. Yeah. And the country you hunt a lot of times these days is a lot more open country. So it's hard to get those tight, close shots compared to maybe up Northern part of the country where it's a lot thicker. Would you say that? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I think it was, I, I,

probably on average was getting closer to elk in North Idaho where it is so thick. Because like you were just talking about earlier, you don't want to set up where they can see you from... Where they can see your calling location from 80 yards away because that's exactly what they're going to do. They're going to walk up until they can see where you're sitting. And they're going to look. They don't see an elk. And then they're going to turn around and walk away. And so...

in North Idaho or areas that are thick like that, they just physically can't, you know, they can't see you from those distances. And so they have to cut the distance. There are places like that where I hunt now that are thicker, where they have to come. Just last year, I called a bull in and he was, you know, within 15 yards of me and like face on, like had me pinned down and I couldn't do anything.

And the fellow that I had with me, he'd never been elk hunting before. He was behind me running the camera, and he didn't quite make the right moves, which is what caused the bull to lock up. He would have walked right over the top of us if I had been by myself.

But he had to come that close, you know, to be able to see me. Yeah. I think I watched that film. Yeah. Yeah. That was awesome. But that worked out good. I mean, like I got to hunt the whole, I think we hunted like 21 days or something like that. Had some good encounters, but it was a tough, for me anyway, it was a tough season last year. I just wasn't seeing the number of elk.

But then was able to, because I didn't notch my tag during the archery season, was able to do that late muzzleloader hunt, which was freaking epic. That was awesome. We'll talk about, I had to talk about that later. Yeah. I watched that video too. It was good. I don't know. Was it one on the same video or is it like a series? I can't remember. Those two different, but like the archery season was one. And then I did a later muzzleloader cow hunt.

in a different video. Right. And what, what's your YouTube channel? Just Clay Hayes. Clay Hayes. Just got on Google or YouTube to find it. Yeah. I highly recommend it. I mean, there's so many videos, like so many videos. There's a bunch of them. And it's just interesting and to watch you and your craft and then your family too. I mean, there's, there's a film about you and your family and I just love it. So appreciate that.

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Now, one thing I just picked up about what you said, I really want our listeners to kind of key in on is like you said 50 yards at home. Yeah, you can consistently hit the target, you know, pretty well. But in the woods, you scale that back to 30 yards and less. Well, I don't want to put a distance on it. Right. Because like, I mean, I'm sure you've had situations like this before. Like you'll...

And I think of one situation in particular, I had a bull at like eight yards and I just didn't, there was no shot, you know? And then that bull that I was talking about earlier in 2015, I actually shot that bull at 35. And so it's like, I don't put a distance limitation on myself.

I'll shoot if I am confident in my ability to make the shot. Right. If I'm not, and like I said, that distance may be, you know, only a few yards. If I don't think I can squeeze an arrow through that brush or find a hole or something like that, I'm not going to try to punch an arrow through it. But if I see an animal and I feel like, all right, I can do this, I'll shoot, you know. And I,

Like I said, I can make those 50 yard shots on the 3d target at the house. I've just never found that type of situation in the woods where I felt confident that I can make that shot on the animal. Right. Yeah. That's a, that's a great point. Um, I think a lot of us, you know, especially compound shooters, um,

It's popular, you know, today with movable sights, you know, you can, you can hit accurately out to a hundred yards. Do I want to shoot an elk at a hundred yards? Absolutely not. Do I want to shoot an elk at 50 yards? I typically keep my shots like,

It's just, it's a lot like what you said, you know, I want to, you know, if I feel a hundred percent, like my ability is like the shot is good. The animal is unaware, you know, everything is right. I'm going to take that shot. Um, maybe at 45, 50 yards, probably not though. And, and most of my shots are under 40. Most of my, I think most of my shots have been under 30 with a compound. Um,

30 and less. And why do I, why do I like to do that? I just like high percentage shots. I don't want to miss. I don't want to wound him. You know, I have so much respect for the animal. I don't want to wound the thing. I want to just take a, I want to make sure whenever I do finally get my shot that I get to take that bull home or bull home with me. I don't want to, um,

have that gnawing on my mind for the next year that, man, I shouldn't have took that shot. I went in that bowl. I never found him. Did he die? Did he suffer? Did he not die? I just hate that feeling. And even taking...

really good shots, you know, they can go awry sometimes. So, um, yeah, I just, I like, I always recommend folks to, you know, just cause you're, um, awesome in your backyard, um, just pounding targets. It's a complete different game in the woods. Yeah. Yeah. That, uh, you're talking about good shots, corner eye, uh, reminds me, um, and, uh, this was, I don't know, several years back. Uh, I had a, I was still hunting, uh, a late whitetail season up in North Idaho, uh,

And ended up having just a perfect situation. I was on the ground. I was on a road cut and had the lip of the road. There was a big, huge whitetail doe down below me. She was close. She was like five yards. Wow. And she came and I saw her. She was walking to my left, went out of sight. I knew exactly where she was going to pop out. Came back to full draw. She came out and I tracked her and made what felt like a perfect shot.

And my arrows like skewered her through the hams. And I was like, oh, wow. What in the hell just happened? It's like that shot felt perfect. Luckily, I hit the femoral artery and she bled out in like a few seconds. But I had a camera guy with me. He was behind me. And I looked back at the footage and there was a piece of a rose limb that I hit. I mean, I was so zoned in on the deer, never even saw it.

Luckily, everything turned out right, but that limb deflected my shot by like 18 inches. Oh, wow. That's crazy. So that's one of those situations where like, yeah, everything's perfect. You got a good shot. You execute the shot well, and just something that's out of your control messes it up. Yeah. One time I had a perfect broadside shot on a spike bull elk.

And, um, I make the shot and he runs off. I'm like, all right. And I do, you know, I wait the amount of time and I started following the blood and it's like, the blood's okay, but you know, he should be dead, like right up here. And I'm, he's just not dead. I'm still following tracks and the blood's getting really spotty now. I'm like, what the heck? I made a perfect shot on this bull. And I follow, I follow, I'll have to get out lights and lanterns. It gets dark. I'm

I'm crawling on my hands and knees. I'm like, man, oh, here's a speck of blood. Here's a speck of blood. I was just, I was just overwhelmed with, you know, guilt. Like, man, what happened? Like I knew it took a good shot and I don't know if I want to bow hunt anymore. And then I kind of, kind of sat back on my, cause I was on my hands and knees. I kind of sat back on my haunches and I looked up that bull's laying dead right there. And what happened was, is I hit him.

Um, right, right in the middle of the lungs, but my arrow hit a rib and glanced and it took a hard right. So it got one part of one lung and it glanced back through part of the liver and then the guts. So it wasn't a great blood trail and he went,

I don't know, probably 300 yards, but it was tough tracking. So I don't know what made my, my arrow do that weird JFK magic bullet travel pattern, but it glanced off of a rip. It was a three, three blade broadhead. It's a fixed blade. Yeah. Fixed blade, little thunder head back in the old days. And, uh, it, it, it,

I don't know if one of the blades caught just right and acted like a ramp, like it would deflect on a branch, but it deflected. And I will say also back in those days, people didn't really super tune their bows, right? Like we do now. We didn't shoot them through paper. We just kind of eyeballed them. You get the center shot. It's like you shoot it and it's like, ah, you

you know, there was a little bit of method like, oh, it's fishtailing or it's wobbling or what you do a little corrective stuff, but we weren't shooting our bows through paper back then. And maybe people did. And I just was too dumb, dumb to know it. A little small town in North Idaho, a little town, a wee IP, you know, I didn't know anything about tuning bows, but the pro shop set it up and I thought, you know, it's probably good. I didn't know if you should. So it could have, my bone could have been out of tune, which probably comp could compound that kind of a movement. Um,

But anyway, it was, you can take a perfect shot. As you say, everything looks good and they can still go awry. You just got to try to focus on taking as high a percentage shot as you can. Yep. Absolutely. I agree with that a hundred percent. As far as my calling during that period, I'm probably going to have more cow calls than earlier. I'm going to start doing a lot more cow calls. So I,

It's almost 50-50 bugles to cow calls. But I'm experimenting. Whatever the elk are doing, whatever they're reacting to is what I'm going to give them. So if the bulls react well to cow calls, I'm probably going to be a little more cow call heavy, which is great because I really like the bulls to answer my cow calls because it's almost like

I want him to have a conversation with the cows and then me playing the bull as well. I'm going to say, Hey, you shut up. Don't talk to my girls. I'll get aggressive with my bugles. And a lot of times that really works to get those bulls to come in. They're like, Oh,

man, that guy's defensive over there. He must, he must have some really nice ladies. There's probably one that's, you know, ready to be bred. I better go get over there and fight and steal those cows away. You know, this is what I'm thinking in my head. And there's probably a biologist out there. It'll say you got it all wrong, but this is kind of what goes through my head. And it seems to work, um, during that period. So, um,

Now let's go to the, the, the tail end of September. So the 20th to the 30th, um, is there anything different you're doing during that time? Yeah, I just, I don't call it all. So things have kind of, is it, is, are you hearing lots of bugles or is it like kind of getting quiet again? I think for, for me where I hunt, the pressure just shuts them down. I mean, for, and it,

I don't rely... I'm not as call heavy as you, not even nearly. I don't really rely on calling all that much at all. I still hunt a lot. But for me, where I hunt seems like...

And once the people start showing up, you've got maybe a five-day window where the hunting's still fairly good. But after that, man, you throw out a cow call or a bugle and they shut up and run the other way. They get pretty savvy to it. They get super call shy where I hunt anyway. And so I...

Just totally do away with the call-in, and I'll wait for them to bugle, and I try to slip in and try to get in close to them and cut them off at that time. I know that I could do things very differently, so I'd be interested to hear in that type of situation. And I've literally seen them, gotten close to a bull, called to them,

And I don't think my calling sucks that bad. Like they literally run away. Yeah. But I think it's because there's just, they hear it all the time and they start to associate it with people. I mean, you got people walking down ridges, skyline, bugling, and all the elk's got to do is look up and see that it's a person. Yeah.

What do you do? What do you do in that situation? I try not to hunt those same elk. I'm pretty mobile and I don't know how mobile you are in your, in your setup. I like to have like a base camp, but one day I might hunt like pretty close to camp. The next day I might go 10, 15, 20 miles across the unit into a different area. So I bounce around a lot and I try not to overhunt one spot because I understand, like I get that they, they get that,

they start associating calls with humans and, and, you know, just because you were calling and you didn't ever see the elk that morning when you walk out and leave, that doesn't mean those elk, they don't come up and sniff around. I think they probably do a lot more than we give them credit for. They come up there and it's like, Hey, there's a guy up here and he peed right here. I don't know if elk are that smart, but I feel like they come around and they smell the presence of humans. And like, it kind of makes them like, Hmm, I don't know if I trust those calls anymore. Yeah.

So I try to bounce around, just try to get away from people the best I can. Now, let's say there is a lot of people. Now, let's say you were there opening week and the elk were in this basin and now everybody showed up. Do you find your elk kind of disappear? Do they kind of move off into a different place or do they just kind of still stay there and just get really cagey? They will bounce around like crazy.

The scale of the base, I think, matters a lot. Like where I hunt, there's a lot of little pockets where they get. And so if somebody goes up with drainage, let's say they're in the bottom of the drainage and working their way up when the thermal switches and their wind gets blown up into their bedding area, well, those elk are going to go over the ridge into the next little finger creek or whatever and maybe hang out there. They might go too.

But they just, they don't like leave the area. They just kind of rotate around and kind of get pushed around like that. Right. Now I found like I've experienced the same thing you've, you're describing, especially about the, when the people show up. A lot of times I just try to find places to hunt where people are not so

Um, there was a new area that I was hunting and I'm like, oh, well, once, you know, once people start showing up, I'll probably just going to park on a trailhead and just get way back in. But what I found was, is most of the people were parking on the trailhead and get way back in. So I had to change tactics. So I tried to get away from any kind of like official trails, right? Um, just bushwhack. It's like, well, if I were an elk, where would I go when there's a lot of people? Um,

This is a real nice basin. Look, there was a bunch of elk in there. There's a good access, good trails in them. Now, if the elk were to run out of that over into the next side, while there's no trails in there, it's steep, it's rocky, it's brushy.

I think I'll go try in there. And that's typically what I'll try to do is, and it seems like if, if those elk can kind of get away from those people for a few days, they kind of calm down a little bit and, um, they're, they're more, more conducive, uh, to calls. Um, but we talked about last night when we were visiting about, um,

The presence of sheep, the presence of hunters, and then the same area I'm talking about. Even once they kind of relocated a little bit, they were still a little bit edgy because, man, those things have been messed with a lot. You know, you got 500 sheep.

blown up through a drainage with the, I don't know if they're Peruvian cowboys on their horses and they got the big white dogs and, you know, the cowboys are yip, yip, yah, and, you know, hollering and the dogs are barking all night long. And, man, those elk were a little bit edgy. Even once they got kind of pushed to other places, they weren't as callable, I'd say, as even some of the elk up in North Idaho where there's a lot of wolves. I feel like.

Once you get them to flip their switch in North Idaho, they're very callable. Trying to get them to talk sometimes is very tough. Down there, they would talk a bit, but they're very suspicious. In those situations, I just keep bouncing around. I'm like, okay, I'll play with these elk today. If I don't have any luck, we're pulling out. We'll go somewhere else. We'll come back in a couple days and try it again. I'm not nearly that mobile because when we go to elk camp, it's like,

we set up a my whole family goes and we just basically moved to the mountains for month of september and so i'm basically hunting from our big camp and just whatever i can cover walk into because i hate like my i hate driving my truck down there because the roads are so rough and i drive that freaking 91 cummins it's like the suspensions like you know it's like a platform

So it'll beat the fire out of you. Yeah. But yeah, mostly just what I can walk to. Yeah. And then I felt like

Can we talk earlier? Like the elk, the rut, like the activity is different from place to place. I've been in places that last week of September and it's, it's sometimes just tough to get an elk to bugle. Like either they've been harassed a lot and, or there's just no cows and heat anymore. They got the job done earlier. And it's almost like bulls are kind of like,

withdrawing and kind of licking their wounds and they'll talk a little bit, but they're not interested in a fight. Um, and that makes it a really tough situation where, um, I think getting back into those still hunting tactics would be very valuable. Um, and maybe, maybe use your calls to locate a little bit and then just get, try to get in on them and kind of still hunt your way through those areas that the bulls are feeding and trying to recuperate. Um, other areas where I hunt.

I may not hear any bugling at all until like the 24th of September. And then it's like go time for two or three days and then it's done. It's funny how that just sometimes you'll go and go and go and it's like they'll just aren't even there. You know, you're seeing sun, but then all of a sudden this switch just flips and then you get out there the next morning and it's just like,

Yeah. And then the next day it's dead silent. Like, I don't know if they read it too hard that day before, like, man, we're, yeah, we got to rest for a day. It's crazy. Now let's say,

September comes and goes, and you've had your fun, but dang it, you didn't get to notch a tag. You talked earlier about muzzleloading that later season. Is that a November-type hunt? Yeah, so Idaho, a lot of the times, you have the opportunity, if you get the A tag, which is kind of the archery-focused tag, you'll have your archery season, and then a lot of times, you'll have those late muzzleloader seasons, and they're usually cow hunts.

But that can be an absolute blast. It's a totally different type of hunting. You know, the elk are transitioning to their winter range or on their winter range. And there can be huge herds. Like, you know, you might see a herd with 80 or 100 animals in it. It's a lot of glass and finding them and then figuring out how to get to them and get by all those eyeballs.

And so a lot of times they'll bed up on those big open faces. And so it can be, you know, even though it's not usually too difficult to find elk, like actually getting within range of them.

can be a bit of a challenge. But it's fun. How far are you shooting with your muzzleloader? You usually use like a flintlock, correct? Yeah, yeah, so I hunt with a flintlock. 100 yards and less. Okay. Yeah, and preferably, you know, 70 or 80 and less. Yeah. But if I need to, I can push it out to 100. Are you using like a round ball and a patch, or what are you using? I've killed multiple elk with a patched ball, but...

I like the little... They're called maxi balls. It's just a little conical bullet. Because my... They're super simple to get tight groups. Like I can shoot... On a bench, I can shoot a three-inch group at 100 yards consistently with a maxi ball. And I can't do that with a patch round ball. Now, there's other guys that can. Like they're paying super close attention to the thickness of their patches and the amount of lube that they're putting on there and the size of the ball and...

you know, like really measuring out their powder charges and all that stuff. And I don't know, I didn't want to put that much effort into getting good groups out of patch balls because those maxi balls are just super simple. Yeah. And what do you think performance wise? You think the bullet performance as far as damage it does is better on a maxi ball than a, than a round ball. They're certainly heavier, like way heavier. Um, I don't remember what the, I think they're like 280 grains or something like that for a maxi ball and a, and a,

a round ball is maybe 180. um okay if i i could be wrong on that but i think that's right but you know a round ball will will mushroom out and flatten out and i've i've like i said i've killed multiple elk i think two or three elk with a with a patch round ball uh and a couple with the maxi balls

or the buffalo bullets. I used to shoot those, but they're like super, they're like almost 400 grains. So like your hold over at a hundred yards is pretty significant. Yeah. Um, but they all, they all work really well. Nice. Nice. Um, I think we got time for one more question. Let's take a look here. Tips for a solo hunter.

where the bull hangs up just out of range, out of range and sight, and you don't have the luxury of having someone behind you calling. So the bull's hung up, you don't have a caller behind you. What would you typically do? Well, in that situation, the first thing I'd say is an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

And so really paying attention to how you set up and where you set up. And you can't always do that. You don't always have the luxury of picking exactly where you want to be. But if you do, if you have the time and the luxury to do that, look at those site windows. If you're sitting in an area and there's a lane that goes 100 yards towards in the direction, somewhat in the direction of that bull,

well, he's going to walk to that lane and look at you from a hundred yards away. And like you said earlier, he's not going to come closer if there's no reason for him to come closer. If he can't see an elk butt sticking out in that lane or something, he's not going to come any closer. And so doing everything you can to set yourself up in a position where he has to come to within range to see that you're calling location. Um,

That would be ideal. In a situation where you just can't do that and you're getting... He's seeing your call and location from out of range. What I would do is just let him walk away and try to come back into him from another angle. Same way I would with a turkey or a gobbler that's hung up. I wouldn't walk to him

I wouldn't walk straight to him and from that same direction and try to pull him straight back that way. It seems like that doesn't work for me, but if you come at him from a different direction, it seems like that would work. That works a little bit better. Okay. Yeah, that's great. What do you think? Um,

I think that's, I like that. Um, what a lot of times what I'll do is, uh, you know, I don't have, I feel like you're a pretty patient person. Um, I may not have those kinds of patients. Um, but I agree a hundred percent like that, you know, your setups, everything, but it's not always ideal. It just, sometimes it just, it happens quick, a lot quicker than you anticipate or not where you hope to have it happen. And the bull comes in and he hangs up and, um,

Like you said, like if you have that little stalemate for long enough, that bull will finally kind of turn around and walk off. I like to try to do some, make something happen before he does that. Cause just like you said, once he kind of walks off and you go straight at him again, a lot of times,

He's just like, you're a coward. This ain't happening. I'm done. I'm done with you. I feel like they make up their mind, the decision, and then there's no amount of effort that you're going to get them to, once they turn and leave, to get them to come back. So coming at them a different angle, I've never tried that. I'll have to add that to my list of stuff. I've always tried to go at them. But what I typically do before they leave is I feel like as things start kind of –

slowing down. Let's say he was just hot to trot and he came on pretty quick, but now he's hung up. He don't want to come. And now he's bugling less frequently. He's been there for 10 minutes. The wind's been good. You know, he'd bugle and rake. I bugle and rake, but he's just not breaking loose. A lot of times I will, I will give a big nasty bugle or, or,

Or typically, especially if he's barked, a lot of times they'll get there and they'll kind of bark. They haven't smelled anything. They haven't seen anything that make them spook. I think the bark is more of like, hey, man, show yourself. Like, I've come all this way. It's your turn to show your cards.

And a lot of times I'll bark and scream. If he's been screaming the whole time or if he's been chuckling the whole time, then I'll bark and chuckle at him. Just kind of depends on what he's been doing. I'll bark and then do X, whatever he's been doing. And then I'll move up real fast and I'll break a whole bunch of brush. I'll try to step on every broke dead stick I can towards him. So I'll make sure that there's, you know, this only works as if I can't see him and he can't see me. There's a, you know, a real thick fir tree or whatever between him and him.

him and I, and I'll move up. Let's say he's 50 yards. I'll move 25. And then at the last second, I'll veer off to the left or right to wherever I think he, whichever direction I think he's going to maybe want to pop out on. But I want to quite expose myself. And as soon as I get there, I'll pull an arrow out and knock it. I typically won't run up there with my arrow knocked because I'm just clumsy and I'm afraid I'm going to skewer myself. Tanner Iskra

That's a great point. I was coming at it more from the angle of you can see the bull. Okay, yeah. And he can see you. And he'll try to make that happen. Oh, yeah. He'll make that happen. Now, if they're hung up, like you were talking about, 80 yards away or whatever, and he's just, I can't see him, then I'll bugle and run at him and just try to threaten him, make him think that, oh, shit, this bull's coming.

And I've had that work. Yeah. Yeah, me too. That's the same thing I'm talking about here. Yeah. And a lot of times they'll come out broadside or quartering just a little bit. I think they do that to show how big they are. Absolutely.

Absolutely. That's, that's what I think too. I think they want to be like, all right, well look at me, I'm big. You know, if you watch like all these films of elk and Yellowstone and these parks where before they fight, they'll sit there and they'll, they'll walk up beside each other and kind of show off and tilt their racks and puff up and make themselves look big. And I,

I don't know that they want to fight all the time. I think they try to give each other an out if they can, but then they'll fight if they need to. And I think that's kind of what this is they're going to do here. And more times than not, it's been a broadside shot. Um, and then sometimes I do that and the bull will just take off. But I feel like if it's like a young bull, um, like a, uh,

two and a half, three and a half year old bull, they may not hold their ground as good as like a big bull, like a big mature, like, you know, big six point or whatever that he kind of knows he's a badass, right? He's like, I know my place in the pecking order. I don't, I don't know you, you know, they'll probably hold their ground a little bit better. At least for me, it's been that, that kind of a situation. And that's kind of a non-

it's a non it's a tactic not everybody uses a lot they're kind of you i think a lot of elk get used to those people they're the wallflower type they'll kind of bugle at them a little bit and they'll kind of linger back and they're but you're acting like an elk when you and when you act like an elk i think you have a better chance of maybe calling them in yeah i had a situation just last year where i had a really nice bull that was had a bunch of cows they were

right down on a little bench down below us and they were like pretty close. He was within 50 yards. Um,

And I could not get him to do anything. Like he wouldn't even acknowledge that I existed, even though his cows were kind of milling around and getting fairly close to me. And I was bugling like he didn't care. Yeah. And this was, this was during that time when it's starting to get into that, where he's heard some bugles from people. He's probably starting to transition into that, like figuring things out. Um,

But I sat there and I sat there and I sat there and I watched him. And if I'd had a compound, I could have killed him. But I'm hunting with my stick bow, so I'm sitting there watching him. And eventually, I would probably sit there for 15 minutes, have great wind. I'm trying to get him to make that move, and he just never does. And eventually, he gets his cows up and they wander off. And I'm thinking about it later, and I'm like, I could have...

just bugled, like a really aggressive bugle and probably just ran right at him and stood there in the open and had a couple, two, three seconds to get to shoot him. I almost guarantee that I could have done that. It's just, you're in that moment. You don't think about those things until later. Right. You're like, dang it, I should have tried that. Well, here's a crazy tactic I used one time. It was really early dawn light. Like you could

you couldn't even see to shoot yet, but I got pinned down on this old skid road and there was a bull. I started calling too early, you know, rookie mistake, start bugling at them and it's not light enough to shoot. Like never do that because usually they'll come in and it's, you can't shoot. It's too dark.

But this bull, I could kind of see his body and he could probably see my body especially. Well, what I did was I had to get... He had me pinned down. So I had pretty dark camo on. I put my bow up over my head and I just kind of moved out of the middle of the skid trail over into the pocket. And he didn't spook. It's like...

Yeah. Maybe it was anecdotal, but maybe he just saw that. It's like seeing that outline and that silhouette. Like, okay, yeah, that's a bull. Maybe not. But he never spooked and we bugled around there and I never did shoot him, but we had a lot of fun that morning after that first initial encounter. But-

Yeah, that's fun. I just think that bull, he was bedded a lot of times. I think I could have rushed him and probably his cows would have scattered, but if I had bugled at him, he would have braced himself for another bull. A lot of times it takes him a few seconds to

figure out what's going on. Right. Yeah, cows are going everywhere. He's like, wait, what's going on? And then he hears your bugle. And then this bugle's coming at him. Yeah, he sees red. And then he's like, oh, wait, too late. But that's one of those things you're like...

It's like, do we try it? Do I try it? Do I don't try it? Hail Mary, right? Last day of season. Okay, I'll do it. But that, I mean, hindsight, it's always, it's always clear what you should have done. Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, I want to thank you a lot for coming on today and, and talking elk hunting. I think like I kind of talked, alluded to in the beginning of the conversation, I feel like we, we hunt quite a bit different, but there's little places that tactics are,

So, and, and I always tell people, you know, don't just, don't just load your quiver with one person's tactics. Listen to everybody. There's something to learn from everyone and something to learn every elk season out there and take those, take all those things you learn and kind of put them together in your, in your quiver. And, and when you go out hunting, you'll have, you'll have more ideas of what to do when things don't go as planned, which is most of the time. Right. And, and,

And as always, if you guys have any questions for the podcast, just call in, leave your name on that or leave your name and number on the super secret hotline number, three minutes or less. Give us your question. We'll answer it on the line here on air or send it in to ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. One more thing. Where can people find you?

YouTube, just search Clay Hayes or on Instagram, Clay Hayes Hunter. I have a Facebook page as well, but I avoid that place like the plague. Mostly Instagram and Facebook or Instagram and YouTube. Okay. Yeah. And you got a website too, right? Yeah. It's twistedstave.com. I've got some books up there and some like bow building resources and things like that. Awesome. All right. Well, thanks again for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Have a good time. Yep.

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