Ep. 47: ARCHERY ELK!!! Listener Questions and Hunting Elk Without Calling
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I just love everything about that end of August, transition into September. Archery elk hunting is right around the corner. On today's episode, I don't have a guest. It's going to be just me as I have quite a few detailed questions from our listeners that I want to dive into and kind of try to give some good answers to. And then I'm going to talk about some strategies that I don't personally use all that often, but I'm able to recognize when they're going to work great and when we should deploy them

such as sitting wallows, such as ambushing elk, spot and stalk, tree stand hunting, baiting if it's legal in your state, and some of those more out of the box. I wouldn't say they're out of the box. They're out of the box for the way that we hunt. We're out there for a certain situation and a certain encounter with the elk, but these are very, very good strategies in the right scenarios. So,

Look forward to talking about that a little bit, a little bit different from our typical aggressive bugle call type stuff. So excited to kind of dig into that. We're going to start this episode like every other episode. We're going to jump into listener questions.

And if you have questions for us, myself or my guests, feel free to send us a message on any of our social media channels. Or you can email us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. And that's where all of these questions come from is through our email today. Our first question today is from Cole Marley. He's from Idaho.

Where he typically hunts elk, they seem to completely shut down at various times in the morning. I've heard stories of guys having better success calling bulls in the middle of the day or calling to bed at elk. He's just wondering if I could talk about how you go about or any tips that you have for calling elk specifically in the middle of the day. So I don't want to like tiptoe around the question, Cole, but, uh,

There's no rhyme or reason to when and what makes elk more active in the morning versus the middle of the day or vice versa. And what I would if I had to try to put some thought to it after talking to biologists and just seeing what happens, you know, from day to day, where it could be, you know.

The rut could be crazy one day, dead the next day, crazy the next day. One thing that I'm starting to think is likely is cows in that herd just being in estrus, right?

if those bulls recognize a cow is an estrus or not, and if that times with early morning, midday, whatever it may be, because those pheromones, once she's been bred, kind of shut off. So if it kicks in in the middle of the day, the rut is going to kick in, you know, or seem to have kicked in, or the bulls are going to start bugling more in the middle of the day versus if that's like a carryover from the night before. So I think

those cows you know being in estrus during that specific time definitely uh plays into that um you know where it seems like a morning is really good you know then it's not good then it is good it's just whether those cows are coming in um or not during that time the second thing that usually seems to to to matter a lot is the dynamics of of the herd that's there is it is

Is it one large herd bull and no satellite bulls close to them? Is there a semi-mature satellite bull kind of challenging that bull, especially when there are cows and estrus? So,

You know, and there's been times where multiple herds end up in one spot, which we kind of coin as a rut fest. You know, multiple herds end up in one spot trying to, you know, get to that good food, that area they like to be or hang out for the evening. That will really kind of kick off that morning rut where it seems like everything's going nuts very early in the morning.

Um, but then to get more to your question on calling elk in the middle of the day and specifically calling the bedded elk, uh, for my normal style, I would say where we, we maybe call quite a bit. Um, you know, we're, we're, we're locating, we're getting in tight and we're, we're being aggressive on, on midday calling. Um, a lot of times you're going to sneak in or we're going to sneak in on those elk and try to get as absolutely close as we can. Um,

There are instances where if he's bugling a lot, we may be a little more aggressive. But if you're getting one or two lazy bedded beagles every so often and he's not really aggressive, we're going to use that just to kind of pinpoint him and get very, very close. The better idea you have of his location, the tighter you can get. A lot of times we see elk go into a patch of timber. We don't know exactly where they're going to bed. You can't exactly pinpoint his bugle, especially once you get over there.

So you're just methodically picking your way to their spot. And then I'm going to be a lot more hesitant. I'm going to be a lot less aggressive. And what I usually like to do when we're in these midday is get as close as we can and then be quiet. That bull will eventually bugle somewhere. You know, he's either going to get up

after they've been bedded for an hour or two and go grab water, or he's going to check on his cows again. Um, a lot of times you're going to see that bowl. If you're close enough, you can watch him get up out of his bed and nudge or bump cows, get them to stand up, check on them. And then he's going to go to the next one. He may do that. And then he may stay right there, but a lot of times or at times he will then go venture off knowing that none of his cows need attention and go to a water source if it's close by. Um,

Um, that is a great time. If you can time that because the bulls on his feet, he's going to be more apt to, um, you know, come in your direction, uh, to, to a bull that that's bugling close to his cows. Um, the other time I really like to do that is on the back end when they're going to get up for, um, their night, you know, they're going to go back out to feed. If you can wait that long, um, we've sat on bedded elk two, three, four, five hours at a time waiting for the right time.

You don't want to insert yourself and just become a crazy aggressive bull when the rest of the elk are bedded down. It may work, but I would think just from our trial and error that going in, calling to those more, you know, they're hot. They're typically, you know, they're trying to be in the shade. They're a little more reserved at that time.

I would say less aggression and then your timing is more important. The other thing that some people do without calling, now I know you've asked about calling to bedded elk, but one thing we've did before is if you can get close enough to the cows, we've got within 60, 70 yards of the bedded cows in his herd, you can just be patient and not call at all. As long as you've got the wind right,

um a lot of times that bull will come check on that cow he knows that she's bedded over there he'll come check on her and that may be an opportunity when he gets very close to your location one you may just have a shot depending on how close you can get and two you may need to only call him 10 to 15 yards off of that but um typically now what calls do we use um

I would say we probably challenged Beagle, you know, 80% of the time. So we go from very reserved calling to no calling at all to basically like a very in your face, um,

I don't feel a cow call is going to work very well in that scenario because he already knows where his cows are at. He may come check on you, but I feel like that bull at the time they bed down knows where every single one of those cows bedded down and whether you're one in his herd or not. So I tend to stick with bugles in that scenario. I'm not saying a cow calls won't work. That's just kind of the system that we run. But yeah, there's a time where

those elk get back to bed versus the time they get up to go feed that there can be kind of that midday madness where that bull, maybe the satellites try to bed too close to his herd or that bull just kind of gets fired up checking cows. That's typically when that happens, that bull get up is kind of that time where they're pretty vulnerable. And I would say that the percentage or the chance of killing that bull is just as good as any other time of the day. So,

long-winded answer but uh cole that's kind of how i would approach you know bulls but you know potentially not bugling that much in the morning and maybe bugling more in the middle of the day um just handle it like anything else make your move i'm just i just tend to be a little more quiet right up until that point of of trying to call that bull in um and uh

Yeah. So we're going to jump into our next question from Andy Summers. Uh, he's elk hunted in Colorado just about every Labor Day weekend going for 25 years. Um, he's pretty confident with a call in his mouth. Although in this situation that we're going to explain, he opted not to use it. Um,

He's curious how we would have handled it. So he was slipping in up an east-facing slope toward a wallow and thick timber with about two hours of evening left. This is an area that received some hunting pressure, and he's almost 100% encountering elk in this area in the morning over the past several years. They frequently moved quietly through the area to bed near a wallow fairly early. The thermals were already moving down slope this evening.

as he was hunting up towards the wallow, heard a twig snap and a very heavy mature bull materialized to his left and up the mountain. He was about 35 yards steeply quartered away when he first saw him and was slowly feeding his way toward the wallow.

He tried his best to work closer for a shot, but the train just wouldn't allow it as there were blowdowns everywhere. Um, so he opted to stay put, let the bull get ahead of him. And, uh, as the wall was about a hundred or so yards up the mountain. Um, and, and what he had, what he considered the best feed for the night was below him thinking the bull would come back, um, and, and ambush him in that spot. Um, once again, timeline September 7th or 8th, um,

Fast forward, the bull didn't retrace his steps, didn't utter a sound, and slipped away in the opposite direction. And then he slipped out.

He didn't hunt the area the next day. He's just wanting to know what would we have did different. And Andy, this is where, you know, we, we claim to be experts or experienced. There are times, and this might not be a great answer, what you're looking for. I'm going to preface this with, there are times where you have to make a decision and there there's risks, right? Um,

If you don't pursue and let him get to that wallow, there's 360 degree direction that he can go. And if he doesn't go in about a 10 degree sliver of that, you're never going to get a shot, right? So you're trying to weigh that risk, but you also added in that you thought the best night feed where they were going to want to go, or maybe where the elk typically go was below you. So you added that in and thought that there was a good chance he was going to come back by you.

Uh, this is one thing where hindsight is always 2020 right now. You're thinking like, dang it, me sitting here was not the right answer, but what other decision could you have come up with that maybe had a better, a higher rate. And, and even then the higher rate, all you're doing is running scenarios through your head, trying to figure out what is the higher rate. It doesn't necessarily mean that's what the elk's going to do. Um, so don't,

Yeah. I think we can always overthink these things and there are decisions we make on the mountain or in the elk woods day after day that just do not pencil out for us. And, um,

It's what makes it fun. It's what makes this like a big chess game. You know, like one or two moves isn't going to win the thing for you. It's an overall strategy and doing things over and over that put yourself in the position to do that. Now, with that said, I tend to think and my brain goes to, which gets me in trouble a lot.

is if I follow this bull, at least I can guarantee that we have an encounter versus the let's hang back and see if he comes back. Now, I also put a lower percentage on that working out. Like if I can pursue this elk,

you know, there's a chance that he's going to be at that wall or he's going to stay at that wall for a minute or two, um, you know, without knowing exactly how thick the blowdown is. Now, if it's thick impenetrable blowdown that you can't get through without being quiet, or if you need to be quiet, um, your, your play probably had the, you know, the highest success, because if you, the last thing you want to do is put a bull on alert as you're approaching, um,

You could have calcaled like a lone bull within 30 to 35 yards, like depending on how the blowdown was laid in, you only need him to come. You don't even really need him to move that much. You just need him to present a shot. And this is one of those times where calling when a bull obviously wants to do something different.

may not yield any results, but there are times where we have did something like this, where a bull wants to go a different direction. We just happen to be in a certain location and we can get that bull to turn and come check you out. Um, so yeah,

In this instance, I probably would have let out a small cow call knowing he was only at 30 to 35 yards, and I just really needed things to kind of change, you know, so you didn't have that steep quartered away shot. Maybe he would turn broadside, or maybe he would just walk two to three yards in a different path versus the, you know, angled away direction that he was going. You know, all that is tough, and maybe the biggest takeaway from your scenario is, you

it's always easy to look at the situation afterwards and think you should have did something different. But in all reality, it's just archery elk hunting. And this is kind of that game that we get to play. You know, you make decisions, they either work or they don't. You think about it the next time you're in a similar position, did that work or not? Do you want to just bank that you made the best decision the first time and do it again? You know, and then it doesn't work. Well, then the next time you're obviously going to be more aggressive or you're going to try something different.

Or, you know, if...

and a bull's doing something similar multiple nights in a row, you're like, well, if I can get the wind right, I'm just going to go hang out at that wallow. Um, you know, there, there's just ways that we adjust throughout a hunt. Um, and to be honest, I don't know if I did anything different, Andy, in your situation than, uh, than, than what you did. Um, you know, good feed you're playing to the bull's habit. They're, they, they're most likely you want to go to that feed. He's going to go grab a drink at the wall before he comes out to feed for the rest of the night.

there's there's nothing necessarily wrong with that play and like i say i maybe would let out a small cow call to see if i could have turned him but that's that's really the only thing i would have did different o'reilly auto parts are in the business of keeping your car on the road i love o'reilly in fact the other day i'm not kidding you the other day i went into an o'reilly auto parts looking for a part i needed a different thing that wasn't really in there you know only like tangentially related to what they carry

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Let's say you're road bugling early in the morning and you throw out a location bugle and you hear a distant bugle, maybe anywhere from 300 to 600 yards away. Do you keep trying to locate more elk or do you move in closer on that specific elk? And what's your thought process on moving in? Can you break that down for me? So,

I'm one of those guys that usually it's the whole bird in the hand analogy, right? Like a bird in the hand is better than I'm going to mess that all up. But you get the idea like that is a for sure thing. But I also may give it some time to see if there are other bulls around because that additional that additional.

information may help or a lot of times when we chase a bull we may mess it up or he may become unresponsive and then our our plan is to move in the direction of those other elk so i always want to know exactly how many elk are around um it is always going to be to my benefit uh but then with that said a lot of times we look at two things and and

One is one of the bulls better sounding. Like, do we feel like that's the herd bull? This is a satellite bull. Do we want to chase one versus the other? The other is how aggressive and how much do they continue to bugle? Like, is it just a returned location bugle or is that bull now bugling on his own getting kind of cranked up just from the location? Or, you know, did he just answer your location bugle, but he's been fired up all morning? Um,

We kind of think of that. And then also which, which one allows a better approach. So if a bull, you know, if the wind's in a great location, it seems like you've got the terrain, right? Um, he's not really moving that fast. So he's going to be in the same location.

Uh, all of that stuff kind of weighs into which bull we're going to, to, to, to go after first and then make our changes. But what I would say is that, you know, you had mentioned road bugling or locating off of a trail or a fire road. I won't leave that location to go find the next elk down, down the road, you know, in a different location. Um,

I will usually hunt what we have there knowing that say on subsequent mornings or the next morning I can go, then I can go see if there's other elk down the drainage or down the road or later that morning. Um, so we usually go after what's presented in front of us. Um,

But I do like to maybe let one or two more location beagles from there before I, you know, let's say the road's up high dive off or if the elk are above us, you know, jump up off the road. I want to know exactly what's there. What other elk are responding before I make my move? And then my thought process of moving in, it's very simple. I don't want to, you know, people can overcomplicate it. It's really what's the wind doing?

At this moment right now, what's the wind doing at the location of that bull right now? You know, if you're, let's say the road's up high and he's down in a drainage, um, is he really close to the bottom? Like, cause then I've got to start thinking about the wind going down the drainage. Is he halfway up the hill? Well, now I've got to think about early morning thermals. Um,

It's I need to stay off to the side of him a couple hundred yards before I move any closer because that there's a potential that that wind going down the hill could get pulled in or sucked into his location.

Um, where's he going to want to go? Um, if I can pick a direction that that bull wants to head, um, by, by the changes of his bugles, by where he's feeding versus where he, he, I think he wants to bed. Um, and then how long is it going to take me to get there? And what's the wind going to be doing once I do get to that location, all needs to be thought about. And, and there's a little bit of a dynamic because all of that's changing and moving, um, based on time. Um, so that's really what goes through my head. Um,

As I'm approaching and trying to get tight to that out. So here's the question number two, let's say you're road being early in the morning and don't hear a thing. What's your next move? Um, work through the North facing slopes right away, or am I going to wait until nine or 10 and hope things are bedded? Um, are you doing any cold calling scenarios?

So if I don't hear any bugling early in the morning, that's usually when I lace my boots up a little bit tighter. Or if you mentioned road bugling, I'm assuming maybe from a vehicle or a gated road. Regardless, I'm just going to cover more ground. I'm going to go try to find a bull that's bugling in that area. I'm also... One of the things we always talk about is I'm using my glass. Unless you're just...

you know, Northern, you know, if you're here in Western Washington, Northern Idaho, where, where you may not be able to see, um, you're just going to have to cover a lot of ground. Um, or if you've got a good idea where elk are at, like I, I, unless you know, you've blown elk out of the country. I just assume that those elk are still there. They're just being quiet that day. Um,

So you can, you can move into those locations, but typically I don't like to still hunt for elk. That means I don't like to go into a timber patch when they're not talking or into, you know, into old growth or into a brush patch or into any area where those elk aren't letting me know, because you're really, you're really reducing the odds, no matter how good and quiet you are. Um, it's sometimes tough without them at least talking on their own. So I usually just cover lots of ridgeline or I would cover more of the road system, um,

and try to just locate elk that are ready to play the game. Because even waiting till nine or 10, they will potentially bugle from their beds, but they're always going to bugle better typically. You can't say they're always going to bugle better, but typically they bugle better in the morning and then bugles get less and less and less as you get towards the middle of the day, towards the heat of the day. So I always want to cover as much ground as early as I can. Cold calling scenarios,

I will use cold calling scenarios, but I don't think cold's the right word. So I won't go just to an area that may or may not have elk and just call. Now, if I'm starting to see sign on the ground, let's say tracks, let's say I'm smelling elk, let's say I'm seeing fresh rubs, an area that maybe had elk the night before, I will call in those areas, but I would call that like warm calling, right? There's a little bit, we've got some good data to say that that's a good spot to invest some time.

If the elk aren't bugling, my personality, my patience doesn't play very well to warm calling scenarios because I always feel that once I'm in September, the bull should be bugling or at least answering me somewhere. And so that's kind of what goes through my head. Why am I wasting time?

not say wasting. Why am I potentially going to waste 30 to 45 minutes here where I don't feel like my odds are very high of getting something to come to this location? Um, with that said, people use cold calling, warm calling scenarios and setups every year to find all kinds of success. Um, I'm just weighing these, uh, percent successes in my head. I feel that, that I'm better served covering ground, getting a bowl to, uh,

to to respond and then setting up our game then i am sitting in one location so question number three from troy a bull bugles at 200 yards away he has no idea if he has cows or not what are the next moves 200 yards is pretty pretty close um i may not risk moving at all um

depending on the terrain vegetation now if if everything's laid out nicely and there's no real risk of me moving 100 yards without being busted in his direction and i can do it maybe quietly um or i can get you know without being seen i will do it i always want to be as close as possible but there are times and i'm you didn't say that you located this bull so i'm going to assume this bull just bugle on his own a bull that bugles on his own may be searching for cows so i'm

I may get, you know, close that distance, whatever it is, 50, 70, a hundred yards, whatever I can get, um, as quietly as I can get. I'm going to listen again. A lot of times we, before we make a peep, like I want to know, is that bull going to be on his own? Can I hear other elk moving around down there? Because by the time you get to a hundred yards, like it's pretty easy to typically hear, you know, sticks snapping, uh, bulls beagling again. Um, just try to get an idea of what's going on.

I will, in this situation, not necessarily bugle right off the bat. This bull has no idea I'm there. I may just let out a cow call. It's kind of that lower threat level. See if he answers that. If this is a satellite bull searching for cows or just a group of satellite bulls that are bugling, you're going to get a fairly quick response. And that may be all that's needed where a bugle would have actually maybe screwed that up.

Um, if you get the idea that it is a herd bull and that's all the farther you can move, I may still be patient in this scenario to see if they're heading in my direction already. Um, that would be the best case scenario if you, if you don't necessarily have to call it. Now, if I feel like they're rumming, you know, rummaging around there, they're not really moving. Maybe that bull's a little more excited than we thought. I may elect to start beagling at this bull or walking on his beagles. Um,

But it's, it's really, it's really tough to know in that scenario because he didn't answer a bugle. He didn't answer a cow call to start with. And there, there's always some hesitancy when you go in there, you don't necessarily want to screw up what you just got, right? You just got a bugle for free. Now, if I go in there and cow call, is that going to shut them up? Not typically, usually the way, you know, the elk work, he's going to, he's going to bugle. He's going to invite you as a new cow into his herd or to come hang out. He'll bugle, you know, a bugle.

within a hundred yards, typically it won't give him the ability to take his cows and run, but you never know. So this one is usually one of those times where I'll start with like the lowest threat level, you know, calf cow sounds, um, maybe into a, a moanier, more whiny bugle. Um, and then, you know, depending on how things escalate or don't, maybe we'll get into challenge bugles, but that's kind of what I would do in that scenario.

So question four, it's the middle of September. You get the camp mid-afternoon, get everything unpacked, head out to glass a couple of meadows and you locate, let's say a smaller herd, two to five cows, one to two bulls. What's your next move that evening, but then also the next morning?

So it depends on how quick I can get there. It depends on how quickly those elk are moving. If you feel like they're going to hang out, um, in that meadow, or if you think they're going to move, do you feel like they're going to move, um, out of that meadow for the morning? Like a lot of this stuff, you just have to make guesses on, and that's based on how fast the elk are moving. Um, are they content? Are they just sitting feeding and not really making up any ground? Um,

All of that stuff will play in, and I will make my decision on whether I feel like my chance of killing that bull is a high enough level that it's worth me going over there, or do I feel like the wind play is better in the morning, or is the wind play going to be perfect tonight? All of that plays into whether I'm going to just watch them, maybe just try to figure them out so I can keep an eye on those elk, but then maybe you're going to glass a whole bunch of other country.

Like if I, if I invest in that night, like, yeah, I could go after him, but I think my odds are better in the morning. Well, then let's utilize the rest of the evening to try to locate herds two, three, four, and five. Um, and then you make your decision on out of those five or six options, which one do I think get, you know, is going to yield the best percentage or the best chance for me to be successful in the morning and then go after those ones. So, um,

it just really depends um i will say typically default to if i feel like there's a good enough chance i don't like let that opportunity get away because those elk may not be anywhere around in the morning typically they will be but there are times where you expect them to be there in the morning and they're not anywhere to be found and you know they may not be there at all anymore they may have moved a half a mile away or into a different drainage um so i usually try to like

you know, seize the moment or capitalize on the, on the, on the opportunity in front of me. But there are times where we will, you know,

kick the can down the road, uh, you know, go after them in the morning, but then also use that night to, to, to find more or additional elk. Or, you know, a lot of times if you take off, you can't watch them anymore. You may miss a lot of information. If you were to sit and watch them for that next two hours, you may see bulls coming up and over the ridgeline into that meadow or bulls leaving or, or cows joining, um, which will definitely add to, um, you know, some of the things you need to think about as you head over there.

Uh, last question, uh, for Troy, the bulls being back and forth with you. Every time you try to close the distance on him and beagle again, he does a roundup beagle and pushes out and moves further away. What are the tactics to kill this bull? So we, we do this a lot. We call it the kind of that cat and mouse. Um, we're, we're chasing an elk. It seems like we make ground. He moves ground. There's two things you can do here. Um, be, um,

And I would say later in the hunt, I would do number one, you can just be very aggressive. You're going to have to, to, to push that boundary very, very close, maybe tighter than you have. And a lot of times I like to save that aggressive play when there's a terrain feature, um,

or a vegetation feature in front of you that allows you to be a little more aggressive. So let's say you're on some finger ridges, you're in some timber and you can see the elk kind of crest over the top. It's at that point where I may just be very quick and try to gain as much ground as I can, hoping that that bull has only moved 30 or 40 yards. So we're very, very tight, but he didn't see me, didn't hear me as I close that distance. The other thing you can do is if you know the direction they're ultimately trying to head,

is pull out and make a big circle out in front of them. And now this circle, you also need to think you've got to be very conservative as far as not being winded, not being heard to try to get out and ahead. And you have to think of how fast this herd's moving because you need to make a big circle and make sure that you're way out ahead. A lot of times,

The reason this won't work is elk aren't dumb animals. If they're moving in a direction, I've got to assume that the wind is going to be pretty constant in the opposite direction. So when you go to make your circle out in front, how are you going to accomplish that

without being winded because elk will not move, um, unless they're spooked or scared. Typically in the downwind direction, they're going, or I'm going to get my directions off, but they're not, they're walking into the wind, right? And if you get in front of them, they're now able to wind you. So keep that in mind. Um, so a lot of times if I can make an aggressive play, I will without a high risk of spooking them. And then there are times where we may just need to, uh,

back out if it's early in a hunt, if you know those elk are content being there and we may just, uh, come back at them a different day. Um, so thanks a lot for all those questions. The last question is into us from Jake Harold. Um, he says he's got a serious problem that may be just as equally suited for a psychologist as it is for us here on cutting the distance. Um,

Um, so he has a major case in history of bull fever. Um, he's got the good fortune every year being able to call an elk to shooting distance, even on solo hunting. Um, but when that bull's coming in, uh, a switch flips in his brain and, um, he just gets, he says his mind actually gets clear, but he's got some sort of an adrenaline dump that, um, is overwhelming and shuts down, um, his system. So he talks about being able to call a bull in, um,

He, uh, it was perfect, you know, picture perfect at 30 yards, but he couldn't get his bow drawn. Um, his, you know, his arms felt like they're full lead too heavy to lift. He said, it's like, he's got a serious issue. That's like psychologically messes him up over the encounter. Um, but he doesn't have an issue with cow elk, no issues on rifle hunts with him not being able to keep his composure. Um, it just happens with big bowls on archery hunts. Um,

you know aside from uh jabbing himself with pins or like clinically diagnosed solutions um what can he do to to simulate or learn to manage his adrenaline dump um this one's tough but i can relate i didn't have it to i've never been able to not draw my bow but um early in my archery elk hunting career and i still do i get i get jacked up i get excited um i love when when bulls are moving into my location um

There were times I had a little bit of a different issue early on. I couldn't, I would forget everything that I knew from that summer or from shooting at the range on how to aim my bow. Um, I, everything fell apart. Like I can get my bow drawn. I can get what I thought was everything settled down, but I would forget to level my bubble. I would forget to, you know, like talk myself through which pin I'm going to use, settle the pin, pick a spot.

So I didn't have the same issue. I went through a scenario. And one thing that worked for me, Jake, was to really methodically practice a system, whether you've got to talk to yourself, whether you've got to make a sticker and stick it on your riser. And it could be as simple as.

breathe, you know, there might be times where, and I'm not, I'm not going to try to clinically diagnose why you couldn't get your bow drawn. Um, but a lot of times guys will stop breathing for 45. You know, it's almost like you hold your breath and that can affect you being able to get your bow drawn. So, you know, writing something on your riser as simple as like breathe, draw,

you know, anchor, like, I know you say, you're saying you can't get to that, but just like the, the, the reminder of breathe. And then when you're out practicing before your shots, you know, when you're practicing, you know, in your driveway or your range and getting ready to, uh, to, to, for season, like, make sure you add that in, like give yourself like

10 seconds of calculated methodical breathing, deep breaths, hold it in, you know, all I'm not claiming to be, you know, a guy that's going to teach you how to, you know, do all that. But whatever your breathing system is like, practice it. And, you know, some of those things, just having a simple checklist, breathe,

draw, um, draw early, whatever it is, like come up with a system that will allow you to get through, um, some of these difficult or sticky points. Um, you know, it's tough because I I'm sitting here trying to tell you what maybe, maybe you should do, but I don't know if breathing is going to help you one bit. Um,

But it's to come up with a way, um, you know, whitetail hunters, it's a little bit of a different mechanism, but guys that sit out and freeze in a tree stand have a, have trouble drawing their bows. So I feel like a lot of guys setups are more than capable for elk. Like maybe, maybe you're telling me you couldn't have drawn a 30 pound bow back. It wouldn't have mattered, but maybe less than your poundage to get through that. Um,

you know, I, I had a good hunt with one of my good buddies at one time and he went through a weird thing where he couldn't get his bow drawn back. The bull spooks runs 10 yards and twirls and he's able to get his bow all the way back. So I think our, our body, our nervous system does a bunch of weird stuff we can't control, but, uh,

Aside from a psychologist or some sort of EpiPen injection, I don't know what to do besides create a very methodical, laid out, step-by-step plan that you need to go through on every time you encounter a bull coming to your location. That's about all I've got to offer on that one.

is you know aside from me the more i get myself put in those situations the more like calm cool and collective i am which sounds like you're able to call bowls in every year so it's not necessarily the the the issue it's uh it's just you know the the body breaks down and you know one of the things it's not your situation good but i i love it it's what it keeps me coming back like that adrenaline dump but you do need to find a way to manage it so um best of luck on that like i say i think

coming up with the system and then using that system even when you're practicing when it doesn't matter talking yourself through it write it on your bow and hopefully that works out for you jake so that's the end of our listener questions there are quite a few of them there once again if you have a question for me or any of my guests please send us a message on social media or email us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com

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So today we, you know, I wanted to get into what for me seems like, and I don't want to call them out of the box because these should definitely be in your toolbox type ideas, but stuff that we don't talk or, or, or educate on or preach as much. So I really wanted to dive into those and maybe let, let you know when I would use those. And when, when I think they've, they've got like the best utility, um, uh,

You know, I'm searching and I've said it over and over. I'm out there searching for a specific interaction with the elk. I want them to bugle. I want them to respond. And I want to keep that up until we, until we call them in. And if you've watched some of our videos, it may seem at time, like we're bugling every 25 seconds. Now, now I do have to throw a little caveat in there, but,

remember we are editing these things, um, down to the point where it's not really exciting just to see us standing there. So you, you, we don't bugle that much as we do in the videos. Um, uh, but we're also smart enough to realize that there are a lot of guys out there that are successful year in and year out that don't call the way we do. Um, they don't hunt as aggressive as we do. Um, so I want to talk about some of those things, um, and way that,

and ways that you can find success that maybe aren't cranking on a beagle, maybe aren't using a diaphragm, maybe don't use calls at all. Um, so we're going to dive into those. We answered a question just a little bit ago, um, on, um, you know, hunting, hunting bedded elk. Um, so heading into their bedding zone, uh, quietly, uh,

Being very patient, almost like a spot and stalk hunter. The same way you do spot and stalk, you're hearing beagles, you know where they're at. That can be very, very productive. For me, I sometimes have trouble not calling, but there are times, especially in Roosevelt country, or if I've got really good ideas and I've got a good pattern on these elk, where I've went into alder patches on an elk trail with the wind right,

Been extremely quiet and been able to get within bow range of an elk. I can remember early, early in my bow hunting, you know, back in the early days of bow hunting where I was able to kill a bull by...

letting him, you know, we followed him all morning. We listened to him. We, we knew the setup wasn't good. The wind was never right. Let him get into their bedding. We waited an hour, hour and a half, let them get comfortable. And we then just knew we had some trail systems that we could get on without making any noise. Um,

Um, now we always talk about, oh, I love archery hunting because I can snap sticks and I can break limbs and the elk know that elk should be making sounds when, if I'm going into a bedding zone and my goal is to shoot an elk that's in there without him knowing that I'm in there, I'm going to be like stealth mode quiet. I want to go in there, not step on a stick. Um, and as you approach is as much as I sometimes don't like getting my binoculars out anytime, um,

a new little sliver of horizon opens up or a new visible section, you need to have your binoculars out. And when you're going up over, let's say a rise, you know, we all know how fast like country opens up for every little inch or two, your, your eyes pop up. You're literally taking a four inch, six inch step and glassing.

You're moving. You do not want to get picked off by a cow, a bull, anything that's there. You're moving very, very slow and you're really picking them apart. Now there is some risk associated with this that I don't want to like not talk about.

When you're heading into their bedding zone, Roosevelt's especially are so patternable, similar with Rocky's. Like if they've got a bedding zone, they like that, that provides, you know, the shade, um, the security, the wind security, you know, swirling winds, whatever it may be, they're going to continue to use that. And if you're early in a hunt or, um, it,

It may booger these things up and, and, and make these elk a little bit unhuntable for a day or two. Um, not always, but if you get picked off or if you bump them out of an area where they're comfortable, just remember, you may have just hurt your odds if you wanted to continue to hunt these elk. So, um, if you're going to head into their bedding area quietly, um,

The other thing that typically happens when you have to head into their bedding area is you don't get the wind perfect. You're, you're not going to be able to get the wind, right? You're typically going to want to head in with a wind that's maybe only 90 degrees, right? So rather than, uh, you know, 180 degrees on your nose, um,

you're going to go in with the wind, maybe hitting at 90. And so your approach needs to be a little more methodical and you almost have to, to make a decision where you think those elk are at. But I've always been super comfortable as long as the wind is moving, um,

side to side on me, left to right, right to left. I'm comfortable going in there, but typically you're not going to be able to approach a bedding zone with the wind perfect. It just doesn't work. Or if you do, the majority of the time they've got additional satellite bowls or they've got, you know,

you know, things that are going to pick you off before you get to the main herd. Um, I can remember a time in Idaho, we had a great plan. We knew exactly where they bedded. Um, we can kind of see through the burnt timber into a shady patch, all the elk bedded there, but what we didn't see were the two satellite bowls that were directly downwind of the herd. So I've now changed my approach. I'd assume go into the bedding area, um,

with the wind a little more favorable to the elk. Um, it seems like we run into less, uh, lookouts and, uh, things that are going to blow the whole situation for us. And, and their eyes are typically, you know, watching their, their, their, their, uh, downwind side wallow hunting. Um, I don't have the patience for it, but we should always recognize, uh,

when wallows can be effective. I was on a hunt in Montana a couple of years ago where we couldn't figure out exactly why elk were in certain areas at times. And it was almost like clockwork. But we later, late in the hunt, almost a little bit too late,

discovered that there were some wallows in the area that were getting hammered. And when we would be, you know, chasing elk up and down a Creek bot, and then they would hit a spot and then they would reverse. We're like, what the hell? And why did that happen? Um, come to find out it was wallows.

So I'm not a huge fan of wallows in the morning. Now, not saying they can't happen, but I like if I'm going to sit on a wallow, which I have done in the past, not with a lot of success, but we've had trail cameras on wallows. So we've got a lot of good data. I would just assume sit on a wallow. You know, if those elk in that area are getting back to bed at 10 from about bedding on, and this kind of keeps me excited. So for me, I'd like to chase bugles.

glass for bowls early in the morning. And then if I'm going to switch to a wallow setup, I'm going to do it that bedding time. And the reason for that is the temperatures heat up

as that bull goes and beds down his herd, a lot of times he will bed them down and then he will come get a drink of water, uh, you know, afterwards or come wallow in there to cool down or both. Um, the same thing with satellite bulls. A lot of times in the morning they're moving with the herd or off of the herd from feed the bed, you know, there's, they're, they're just shadowing that, but they may swing in, um, you know, and grab water earlier or later, um,

Midday and then a lot of times where wallow will pan out is when the bull or the herd gets up from their bedding area and they're going to head towards their feed area, they will swing by and swing by the wallow prior to their nighttime feeding routine. It's very patternable.

The one thing which we talk about all the time is the direction. One thing I like to think about, and I will not sit wallows if it doesn't pencil out this way, is where are those elk going to approach from? And can I keep the wind right at the time when they're going to get here? So one of the downsides to wallows is what's the wind direction going to be doing at the time that those elk get here? And a lot of times...

I don't know what you call the time. It's like that shadow time, right? Where the shadows start to get long. It's like, all right, you just know the elk should be getting up on their feet. It's cooled down now. The sun's at a point on the horizon where everything's cooling off.

When it gets to that, the wind is typically swirly, right? We don't, we all know thermals are changing. All of that changes. A lot of times it makes it very tough to sit a wallow and keep the wind right. So if I'm going to pick that out,

you know, is it, is it down below their bedding? Is it up above? What time are they going to get here? My banking on them getting here late after the thermals have changed before. So you just got to be fairly careful on sitting a wallow, not to, not to bump them out. And, you know, maybe it resorts more back to whitetail hunting. But as I approach the wallow, like,

Where did I just leave my scent trail? Was I able to approach that wallow from a direction that no elk is going to have to cross that or a high probability that elk aren't going to cross that? So you're, cause I've, I've, I've entered an area called elk in and had them cross my, my track. And I'm about 0% successful on bulls or cows or any elk being willing to cross my track. So we need to be very smart on, on how we approach those wallows, how we get to them and then where we set up on them.

One thing that will fix the wind a little bit, and it depends a little bit on the wallow, whether it's in a depression or whether it's high on a ridge or if it's a hanging wallow, you can use a tree stand. Now, I've never tree stand hunted elk, but I understand well enough that there are certain locations. Let's say there's a finger ridge that runs by a wallow.

or the ability for us to get our scent up and above, which gives us a whole lot more, um, probability that those elk aren't going to win this when they get to the wallow. So tree stands, um, you can use over wallow. You can also use tree stands on main travel corridors. Um, this is for, for patternable elk. Um, they, they, it,

Number one, just like when you're hunting white tails or anything out of a tree stand, it gets your, their eyes off of you. So it gives you that, that freedom to be able to, to not be seen. And it gets, once again, it gets the wind out of your way. So I like tree stands. If you're in a very, um, patternable area that you know, the elk are going to the visit, um, by all means, a tree stand is a great idea. If you've got the patience. Now, the, the one problem with me in a tree stand is if I heard a bull beagle, um, and

And I didn't feel they were coming my way. I would get back down on my tree stand and go chase bugles. So it wouldn't work for me. But if you're patient, you know, I know guys that sit on, on wallows for 10, 15, 20 days and finally make it happen. It takes a lot of patient. I would say tree stand hunting requires a little bit more of a long game play, but can be very, very effective.

Next up is ambush. Um, once again, comes back to patternable. Um, I would say, you know, tree stands kind of like the long game ambush where ambush is something that you're going to do, um, very quickly that morning. Um, you know, we've, we've spotted elk or we see elk and we know that they're going to use like that certain pass that's on the ridgeline, or they're going to, they're going to go down through this bottom, or they're going to this timber patch. If you've got good data on these elk or good direction or a good bead, I always kind of, uh,

consider the way we hunt an ambush style. I am trying to cover as much, no pun intended, I'm cutting the distance. I'm covering as much ground with my feet as I want that elk. I want to do 99% of the work and I want those elk to have to move a very, very short distance. But let's say you don't want to call at all. Let's say there's reason you've tried to call these elk. It's not working. In that case, I'm going to put all my calls in my pocket and I'm going to go over to where I think these elk are going to go by.

Some of the cons with ambushing is time, right? Are they going to get there in time? Are they going to take their time? Another concern is, are they going to change their pattern just slightly? You know, when,

uh you know we could do all the very complex math but if elk take just a slightly different direction from where they're at to where you want them to go by they're now out of archery range right so you need to maybe you set up in a conservative ambush spot maybe back in the timber a little bit more that way if they're not going to go on your trail you've got the ability to move unseen versus some people i know they they get out on the edge maybe out in the open and then when the elk decide not to take their path they're kind of pinned down um so there's that

I think it's a, a human trait where we just want to be able to see what's going on versus a little more conservative. Maybe you can listen to bugles and that can tell you which direction they're going. Um, you know, you can, you can make an adjustment, um,

on that and uh once again ambush same thing we talk about over and over what's the wind going to be doing um and uh there are times where you get in a scenario once you decide that you're not going to call i would go over there and not call um there's always things that run through my head like oh i think i should call now because of this and it never seems to work at the point where i decide it hasn't worked the last couple times i'm going to go over there and truly ambush

and set up, not call, and hope that they walk by my location. The last and one of the reasons I don't like ambush style without calling, not saying you need to call, but one of the other things you're going to have to consider is

is how far off of this trail do you want to set up? There are times where elk will move in more of a single file line, but there are times where they're running pretty wide, right? But guess which elk during the rut is typically always last? It's the bull or he's very close to the end. Not saying it always works that way, but a lot of times if you're not calling, that bull is kind of keeping his herd herded up or he's broke a cow off, but they're typically one of the last elk to come along. So one of the things that...

You have to think about, and as always a little nerve wracking is how are you in a location? Are you in an ambush spot that lets all of these go by you? Is the wind good enough that they're not going to catch your wind, you know, 30 yards past you because it may take them to get 80 yards past you before that bull goes by. So think about all of this as you're setting up for an ambush, um,

Bull's going to be, you know, always assume the bull is going to be last because you need to make it through that. Is the wind good enough for that to happen? And then, you know, if all those boxes get checked, then it's a decent ambush spot. Spot and stock. Yeah.

Very similar to an ambush versus you're doing as much moving as they're doing. You're trying to find a spot or you're trying to find a spot where you finally got enough of an advantage without being seen, without being heard. And typically that advantage is going to come through terrain or through the vegetation. It allows you to move without being seen. Maybe it allows you to move without being heard.

So spot and stock, there are guys that do it very effectively and the guys that are good at it are just as successful as the best callers, the guys that run the best callings, you know, or any of these other things. It's a very effective way.

and sometimes a very rewarding and fun challenge to just shadow the herd. Shadow the herd until you get yourself into a location where you can move in for a shot, or a lot of times when you're spotting and stalking, you're getting just close enough that you want that bull to break off and make a loop on another bull, or break a cow off and make a loop back from the herd in your direction, just enough where you can get a shot. And so that's typically when you're spotting and stalking, you're either

shadowing the herd staying close enough that they make a mistake or there are times where you know if the terrain allows or if you're able to keep the wind right and uh make calculated decisions on where you need to get ahead of them so that they you know veer by you or kind of rub off you know rub by your location um another great way um to spot and stalk and a lot of times um

There are times where you just get herds that seem to be disinterested in you calling. They don't care that you're over there calling. You can just tell they're not answering you. They're answering the other elk. They're answering the other bulls that are there. They just don't. And a lot of times if there's a bull in there that you want to kill, um, or you want to go after, that is when the spot and stock kind of ends up being the right key. They don't give a darn about you calling at all. They could care less that you, that you're even in existence. Um,

Um, you got to switch that spot in stock, uh, and make that happen. And then the last thing I wanted to talk about, which we can do in Washington, um, and, and check all of your local rules and laws. And for anybody where this is illegal in your state, don't listen to this part, but baiting can be very, very effective. Um,

you know, here in Washington, it seems like everybody's always searching for apples that somebody has fallen behind your, uh, you know, under your apple tree. And can we get them and can we put them together? I don't even, I don't bait here, but, uh,

we have some weird rule. Um, I'm going to get it completely wrong, but it's basically, you can have five or 10 gallons of, of bait every 250 yards spaced, blah, blah, blah. Um, but, but there are rules that govern it. And here, um, for, for deer and elk, it's, it's legal debate and very, very patternable. Um,

The nice thing is once you got this pattern down, even during the rut, these elk will typically swing by to see what's in your apple pile or what's in your alfalfa pile or whatever you're using, you know, crack corn, whatever it may be.

they become very patternable, which is nice because that now lets you set up your ground blind or that now lets you set up your tree stand in the opposite direction. You know, from a trail camera, you can see how they're going to approach, where they're going to approach. You're going to know what the wind's like in that location the majority of the time. So baiting can be very, very, you know, ah,

have a high level of success. I'm not going to get into the arguments over whether it's ethical or any of that. It is what it is. I'm just saying that it can be very effective. And if, uh, you know, I like the idea for young kids that are trying to get their first elk, um, maybe, you know, elderly or, and I say that not as a, not to put people down that do it, that aren't young or elderly, but it's an effective way. Like in the end, I always try to remember we're all out here for different reasons. Um,

I love eating elk still. Right. We, we, we talk about all of this and we, we go do it in the mountains and whatever, but in the end, it's like, I just want a freezer full of elk. And, uh, so it's, it's a great strategy if it's legal. Um, and, and people should look into it if available. So those are, we didn't spend a whole lot of time, but those are things and ideas. There's kind of a pros and cons in the heading into bedding zone. There's pros and cons, the wallows, ambushing spot and stock tree stand, hunting, baiting, um,

But those are some things you always need to think about. And they're never below me or above me while I'm out there elk hunting. I'm always trying to call them in, but, and it's typically triggered by the bigger bulls. If bigger bulls,

aren't susceptible to calling, but I definitely want to focus on them or I want a chance to kill that bull. These are the things that we start to think about. Um, all right, do I got to go get him in his bedding zone without making a call? Do I, is he visiting a wallow that I think is over there because you know, Onyx map shows a depression that seems to have water. Um, am I going to have to ambush him? Uh,

You know, all of these things come into play and they're always an option. They're always, you know, in the toolbox and we will use them occasionally throughout a hunt if we feel that that is our best success of killing that bull. And like I say, it's a little cliche, but I'm always every decision we make, every bull we go after, like,

I, in the back of my mind, it's always like, well, that's got a 13% chance of working. I give this a 2% chance of working. Um, you know, if some of these other things like, all right, I honestly think they've went through that gap two nights in a row at this time, it's within a five minute span. I'm going in there with pretty high confidence that that's going to work. Um, so you're always weighing your options. Um,

yeah, there's multiple ways to do this and be successful. And in the end, find something that you love to do. Like if you love calling elk, then go do it that way. If you love to call elk, but it doesn't matter if you, you know, wait on a wallow, go do that. Go out and elk hunt, enjoy the rut in September. Um, it's a magical time to be in the woods and go do it. However you want to do it, regardless of whether, you know, I'd rather be a little bull in or, or, you know, that's what you want to do. Go have fun. Um, we appreciate you all. Um, thanks for, uh,

joining in, listening to this episode of Cutting the Distance. And we got another, we'll have some more elk episodes heading your way as September is getting really, really close.

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