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Today's guest may be most recognizable in the whitetail space. He grew up in the bluff country of southeast Minnesota where he became obsessed with everything outdoors. He spent all of his extra time bass fishing, turkey hunting, upland hunting, and of course deer hunting. Tony Peterson took his love of deer hunting and eventually turned it into an outdoor riding career, a profession he kicked off in his mid-20s after becoming the associate editor for Peterson's Bowhunting Magazine. Later he earned the role of equipment editor for Bowhunter Magazine and Bowhunter TV.
In more recent years, Tony joined up with MeatEater to produce content including articles and podcasts under the Wired2Hunt brand as well as shows like Back 40 and One Week in November. Listeners will likely know of Tony if they are into whitetail hunting public land as he was one of the pioneers that thrived at killing big bucks on public ground.
He has arrowed a pile of good bucks on public ground in multiple states and is considered one of the nation's top authorities on hunting pressured deer. But that's not why we have him here today. He also happens to be one hell of a turkey hunter. With countless shotgun and bow-tailed turkeys to his credit, he's a wealth of knowledge on calling longbeards, especially longbeards that have received a lot of hunting pressure, which is what we're going to get into today. Welcome to the show, Tony. Thanks for having me, man.
How's everything going? It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I'm getting ready for turkey season, so that's always exciting. How's the spring shaping up where you're at? You know, it's coming in real slow, but we're getting there now. And, you know, my focus right away is always to get my little girls. I have twin 11-year-old girls, and they're turkey hunting fools. And so we scout and get ready for them hard. And then once they fill their tags, then I start to play around a little bit. But that's
That's always my focus now. Do you guys have a youth season there where you're at for the girls or, uh, you know, in Minnesota, we don't, they just, they get to hunt the whole six weeks of the season. Uh, but I do take them over to Wisconsin where they have a weekend. That's a youth. So nice. So Wisconsin and Minnesota this year, you have more on the docket for Turkey hunts this year. Just those two States, uh, for the girls, those two States and myself too. And then I'm going to, I'm going to head down to Nebraska. And I also drew an Iowa tag this year. So I've got a few tags. You'll be, you'll be busy. Nice. Nice. So, uh,
yeah, it, uh, sounds like diehard deer hunter, but, um, just as much a Turkey hunter is, is a deer. Absolutely. And it doesn't,
I don't, you know, I'm going down to Iowa. I'm hunting public land down there. I'll be scouting deer, you know, the Nebraska thing I'll be scouting deer. So it's, it's always, yeah. You know, the primary focus is, you know, kill a few long beards, but it's time in the woods, man. Like I just love it. And I'm always checking out new spots and Turkey season. So good for, you know, kind of taking a flyer weekend and going somewhere. Cause it's,
you never know you might find something worth going to deer hunt yeah i love um this kansas piece we always talk about going there to the turkey hunt is just as much fun you know getting ready for the fall deer hunt if i'm lucky enough to to grab a tag because you get to go into some areas um that he won't let you in uh you know during during deer season so you get to check some things out and learn the lay of the land and you know maybe maybe give you some tips on where you're gonna you know set a stand or where you should set a stand so no i i really like it but uh
Yeah, no, I'm excited for spring. Got Kansas. I've got Washington and then Idaho as well. So I'll have three. Oh, nice. Yeah. Nice.
Like every episode, we are going to start with some listener questions. And if you have questions for my guests or for myself, please email them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or shoot us a social message or anything like that. And we'll try to get them on here. So the first question for you today, Tony, is defining a roost tree. We got a question. A guy was wanting to know, you know, there's trees everywhere in the woods. How do you define a roost tree or what makes an ideal group of roost trees?
You know, that really depends what part of the season you're looking for it. You know, if you, if it's an early season thing, you'll find that true Turkey roost where it's, it's someplace, you know, it's going to have big Oaks or some kind of big tree and it's going to have some kind of terrain advantage, you know, where they can fly off, where they can tuck away from the wind. And then as the season progresses and it gets a lot nicer out that survival, you
You know, they're not worried about freezing to death up there. They don't need as much protection. And so they'll spread out. But, you know, I mean, always it's droppings. It's scouting is huge, you know, looking for those those spots. And then, you know, I always tell people one thing you notice, especially in maybe like the first half of your season is.
You know, if you have a roost, even if it gets blown out, what you'll see those birds do, especially when they're flocked up, because if you have nasty weather come in, like we get a lot of fronts in the spring in different places, those birds are going to roost somewhere where there's a, there's a real advantage to getting out of the wind. And so you think, you know, you get a crazy east wind or something and you're like, oh, they're going to be roosted where they're always roosted. And then you go there and that wind's blowing that up.
They're going to be somewhere else. And you can almost call your shots. You can pull up on X and look at it and go, okay,
They could tuck in here and be out of that wind all night long. You'll find that. I mean, you see that in so many places. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, you don't want to be too obvious, but you know, you got your scat, you got your feathers in those areas. You know, and the best way, as you mentioned, is just to scout it, you know, locate, you know, we, we learn of most of our roost areas just by locating at nighttime, you know, getting ready and they're like, oh, they're in these same areas time after time.
And it's different though, even different subspecies. Now you go to the Midwest and if you're hunting Easterns, they seem to want to come back to a set group of trees as long as it checks all the boxes, you know, out of the wind. A lot of times those roost trees are just off of a ridgeline. They can walk up the ridgeline and then they can pitch down to the tree without having to do a bunch of like laborious flying up.
Um, and just being off of that ridge, as you had mentioned, keeps them out of the wind. So, um, big, heavy limbs, they don't like to be shook around. So it's like, you know, it's, I guess we're talking about what they typically like to be and they can roost anywhere. Right. But, but typically like to be in those bigger trees, bigger, you know, oak trees, big limbs. Um, they're not getting shook around near as much. And then when I go to hunt Merriam's around home, those things literally just roost where they end up, but similar, you know, they're, they're staying out of the wind, but they, they,
they're not as likely to come back to that tree night after night after night yeah i've seen it you know easterns like you mentioned i've seen rios be real consistent too but man it's you know like the first part of it is fine and all those droppings and other where you're like yeah clearly they spend some time on that limb and that limb but if you get a way to watch them if you you know if you can get out in the morning and listen for them whatever that's great but if you can watch them in the evening approach it
It's so valuable. See how they actually work their way in. And then you know, okay, if I get in there where I would want to set up, they're going to see me because they're going to have a visual advantage a lot of times. So being able to watch turkeys is so huge. Yep. Yep. So listener question number two, I'm new to turkey hunting and I can only take one week off to hunt.
which is a little nuance, right? We, we talked a little bit before the podcast because some seasons have already been going for over a month, you know, down South. Um, some of our Northern states, a lot of States open on like an April 15th opener, you know, some youth seasons mixed in there. Um, so we'll have to, you know, take it with a grain of salt, but, um, in your opinion, kind of what's the best time to be out there. If you had to pick like a one week, if, if I'm hunting a place that nobody else can go into, give me the first week. If I'm hunting a place where, you know, I might be the third one in line. I, I,
I always try to time it around like a real green up. Cause you know, the flocks are going to split up. You know, those hens are going to go start eating bugs and some fresh greenery and those toms are going to follow them. And then if you can time it, you know, for years in Minnesota, one of my favorite times to hunt was when the walleye opener happened. Nobody wanted to, you know what I mean? And you see that in other States. So there's,
It's kind of turkey season a lot of times sort of follows the deer season, like at least the bow season pattern where there's a bunch of activity right away and then it kind of dies down. And then as the clock starts ticking toward the end, you'll see people start to get back out. And so there's usually middle ground there that you can find.
Yep. And I'm similar to you. I love hunting that first week. If I had private, I'd be out there that first week for sure. I think your likelihood of calling those toms in is way better. But in Washington, public ground hunting like we do, you get a week of every single chunk of public ground is occupied. And then if you go the second, even into the third week, you're kind of in that hand up phase where everything's locked down. Sometimes they won't gobble, they won't
they just, they will not come to a call on you. So you're kind of fighting that I've always liked in Washington, like May 10th. Um, it's getting pretty late in the season, but we're starting to get the majority of our hens bred and on eggs all day and away from him. And so, and that's, to be honest, no matter what, you know, if you want to kill the three or four year old birds, like I've always felt like mid May for us in Washington, um, is some of your best timing. It's just those birds are lonely after nine o'clock and, uh, you know, you got them all to yourself. So, yeah, that's a, that's a,
big thing when you're talking, you know, it used to be just like everybody's like, oh, I got to kill my bird off the roost. And it's like that launch shift is when those birds go looking. And especially when you're talking May. Yeah, you might not
you have to push through a little bit more. You're not going to get probably as much goblin, as much action at times. It's a little, things have slowed down a little bit, but man, as far as like likelihood of harvesting a more mature bird, um, later is good. So I guess we didn't really answer that question wholeheartedly, but it's just, there's always good times to be out there. Um, but, uh,
I don't know. I don't know if there is a perfect week to be out there, but yeah, like you said, no pressure early for sure. You know, we just completed our Washington youth season and guys were just mopping. They were, it was just great. These birds haven't heard calls yet. They're super callable. And then, you know, it's going to progressively get slower as season. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a, that's another good point for somebody who's just starting out. How confident are you in calling? Yeah. You know, cause if you can get out there and, and,
really call right away you got the most birds to work with that haven't been pressured that's a good time to go but you know you gotta you gotta have some confidence yeah you're saying yep yep for sure um and then our last we got a third listener question in our last um so a new hunter wanted to know can sitting sign be effective um or productive um and and once again i think we need some more information but i'll go ahead and let you answer and we'll add on to it 100 i mean i i
I, you know, I only bow hunted turkeys for like 10 years. I kind of went through that phase. And you know, when you're committed to a blind and an all day sit in a spot sign is everything. Like I want, I want to know they're using a spot for some reason. And we're kind of, we're kind of used to thinking about turkey hunting is like, just get out there, listen for a gobble and go. But you know, unless you have a lot of land to roam, like that's maybe not the best strategy in a lot of places. And, and,
turkeys are so patternable. I mean, it feels like it gets wild, kind of like the whitetail rut. Like you're like, oh, they're just all over the country. There's a method to their madness. And toms are super predictable and so are hens. And so if you've got a place where they're scratching,
You know, if they were there today at 10 o'clock, they're going to be there tomorrow at 10 o'clock. Unless something blows them off. Yeah, as long as they're not disturbed. So, I mean, and the thing is, you got to think, okay, well, the easiest place to find sign is out in the open, right? Like on the ag fields or whatever. And, you know, that's great. But I look at it and go, I want that, but I want to know where they're looping through the woods on a circuit, where they're scratching somewhere that's in the cover that's not so obvious. Yeah.
And you start piecing those together and then maybe you've scouted those roofs like we talked about. Now you're like, okay, I've got places to be. And then you just got to give them time. Yep. And it's kind of funny. I never, every year we go through this progression where I don't relearn that until about day three. You try to go in, you try to force your plan that wherever that bird's at and wherever you're set up, you're going to call it to them. And then by day three, you're like, all right, this is obviously not,
you know it may work but it's not working as effectively like we know the pattern of these birds let's not force this whole call scenario to us let's just go and it's way more effective and i'm saying this is a guy that loves to call turkeys and makes a living you know selling calls for turkeys but patterning you know it's it's almost like the ambush style on elk hunting i'll i'll
always say that you're going to be way more successful in calling that bull in if he's already doing what he wants to do only has to come a little bit versus like make them do what they don't want to do every animal yeah and it i mean that's a the turkey thing when you're talking about sign and calling it's a proximity thing you know just like with elk you're like if you're a hundred yards away from a bull he's a hell of a lot easier to call in than if you're across the canyon and turkeys are the same way yeah they're going to answer you but if you're where they expect turkeys to be and you're you're damn close to their route it's totally
totally different game. Yeah. All right. So that wraps it up for listener questions. Once again, if you have questions of your own for me or my guests, please email us at ctd at phobesgamecalls.com and we'll do our best to include them.
So now we're going to jump into some of my questions I had for you. Just some conversations, some things we haven't really touched on. You know, we can kind of get stuck in this rut of like regurgitating and like just having that circular conversation. There's only so many things you can talk about turkey hunting. So we're going to jump into maybe some of the oddities or some stuff we haven't talked about on some of the past turkey episodes. So one thing...
we just kind of mentioned some of the things that takes me until day two or three to figure out, but every spring you go out and you start to, you know, you hear your first gobble and you're like,
shoot, you know, whether you're in Eastern Washington, whether you're in Kansas, how far away was that thing? Like, can I go another hundred yards? Do I need to sit down here? It's one of those real difficult things to figure out. And there's a lot of, uh, you know, factors that, that factor into, to, to a gobble. But do you have any tips for anybody going out there? Like how aggressive can you be? How, you know, what's the best way to gauge that? Man, my hearing sucks. I have so many guns and guitars in my day, but I'll say this, especially for newbies, um,
If they sound close, they're really close. And if they sound far away, they might still be close. And so I, I get real cautious because if you go run and gun and chasing gobbles when they're lighting up, I mean, you're going to learn that you're going to bump, you're going to bump them. Yeah. I mean, it just, and so, and, and sometimes, you know, especially if you spend, it's different for me when I'm scouting birds and I'm photographing them. Cause I'm not, I don't care about getting in to kill them. So it's like,
I learn a lot about how far away they are and how far they sound because I'm not making, I'm not in that hunter mindset. I'm just observing. And man, there's so many times where they sound far away and they're just not.
And so I'm always like, you know, I know everybody wants to sprint across the countryside and get 75 yards away and, and set up, but I always just assume they're closer. And I always assume that if I go sneaking in on this bird, unless I've got like an obvious, like if there's a bluff or something and he's on top,
Like they're going to see me better than I think. And even with the woods greened out and everything. So I'm, I'm pretty cautious that way. And I'd rather, especially, you know, if they're sounding off and you can throw an owl hood at them or something, it's like, you don't have any reason to go Russian, like work it out a little bit. And I,
you almost can guarantee that if there's a bird gobbling at you there, he's probably not alone. I mean, you might've run into that two-year-old or whatever, like they might be alone, but a lot of times they're not. And so you're now you're working in on not just multiple sets of eyes. Exactly. And, and one of the things like the biggest eye opener for me is, is you're working a bird, as you mentioned, but we've, I don't know if everybody's been there, but I've been there multiple times where we're on the edge of a field.
And there's a bird out there 200 yards away. And that thing sounds, if he gobbles away from me and then turns and gobbles at me, like I would have just lost all kinds of money on how far I thought he was. But it's literally, you know, maybe a three X magnitude indifference on what I thought that distance was just if he turns and gobbles the other way versus gobbles towards me. So I've already got that against me. Now we've got, if he did that same thing in the wind, was it his back versus in his face?
you know, what's the wind doing where I'm at? Um, you've got foliage, you know, early in the spring, gobbles are going to travel a little bit farther as it starts to really green up and get thick. And, and now, you know, so all of these things play into, but I think you hit the nail on the head earlier with your comment of, you just always play it a little more cautious. There's, if he's gobbling, he's obviously still there. And, um,
As long as he's still there, you have a chance versus if you go and bump him and spook him, you're now dealing with a, you know, a buggered up bird real hard to deal with at that point. Once him or his hens get, you know, spooked, it's going to be tough. Yeah. And I mean, I think in that situation too, um,
A lot of people talk themselves into going cause they'll have that bird that'll, it'll hit them every time, but he's not coming and they get impatient. And man, I mean, you can kill them that way, but I always look at that. I'm like, if I have a wild Turkey talking to me, I'm doing just fine. And you know how, you know, it's kind of like elk, like, you know, sometimes there's just one that slips in from somewhere else or suddenly they just come in. And so if you've got one and you're like, Oh, he sounds like he's 200, 250 yards away, you're,
I'm like, man, if he's calling to me, unless I have a real terrain advantage to get closer, I'm like, I'm just going to work him until he makes the decision. Yep. Yeah. And then you start to throw in ridges and like open ridge tops and, you know, up and down that turkey's moving or he turns around. It just, it becomes very difficult. And no matter how good you are at it, you're, you potentially could get it wrong unless you can really read the situation. So just, yeah, always be cautious. I think it's a safe play and approach with caution. Well, and I mean, that's one of the things I've been writing about this a lot lately is,
is the better you get at calling and the more confident you get, the less you feel that pressure to just put yourself as close as you can. You know what I mean? When you talk about a bird like that, you know, you run into that a lot with pressure birds. If you hunt a lot of public land birds, you'll get those birds that just hang up. They'll tell you where they are, but it's like,
you really got to give them something special. And so if you can work two calls at one time, you know, make it sound like two hens meeting up and cutting hard and, or just give them something different. Sometimes that's all you need to break them to you, but just going to them is so often that does not go well.
Oh, yeah. So, uh, once again, just be cautious. Um, and then it's, it's really a skill. It takes a lot. And even no matter how many birds you've listened to, um, still can get it wrong. So, um, jumping into our next question, one thing we don't talk a lot about, um, but does play a significant factor, but we, we also don't think about it a lot while we're hunting, especially in Washington, where we have water, um, in a lot of places, you know, how does water affect your turkey hunt? It's,
It's different than an elk and a wallow or, you know, elk that need to go to water every day. Turkeys can get it in different places, but they also will use, um, you know, water for different reasons for feed, for green up. Um, what do you, how do you think about water in relation to spring turkey hunting? And, uh, you know, I've, I've killed birds in like proximity to water in Texas and places where you're like, I think they're going there to drink. Yeah.
but I use it more, you know, cause we, a lot of the States I hunt, you'll get a Turkey season that opens up and you might get snow. I mean you, and so the wetlands are full, you know, and those birds do not like getting their feet wet unless they have a real good reason. So if they're, if they're just traveling point A to B and scratching or whatever, they're going to avoid water. And so I, I, I,
I spend a lot of time setting up blind, especially for my daughters where I'm like, there's a swamp here and there's a cattail slew there. And this is the high ground. I mean, kind of like you do a deer and you know, they don't always do it. Sometimes they'll fly across, but if they can walk, they can. And so, I mean, water, water's a factor in a lot of stuff. And then, I mean, I've seen this too, and I don't really know what's going on, but it's almost like there's a little micro climate around that water first, you know? So when you don't have anything else green in the woods, you're,
sometimes you can go and and see turkeys scratching up on the edges of water it's like they're they're finding something there that they're keying on and so there's a you know you you might look at it and go well they're just walking around this edge they're not if you watch them or you you know you might think oh they're going down there to drink well they got water everywhere and so there's there's things like that yeah i think i think the um
The amount of bugs around that water, too. You'll watch them out there bugging as they're feeding in the middle of the day. I think there's just a lot more bugs near the water than maybe away from the water, you know, if we're talking about like the same feed in comparison. So they may be going down there, getting into better food, you know, better bugging area for them to feed. But yeah, so you're basically saying you can treat that water as almost not necessarily a funnel, but it almost condenses them to like a more narrow area.
uh path like their routine is going to be a tighter path because they're not going to want to be in the swamp they're not going to want to be next to water i'm sure you're going to kind of choke them down to some of these areas so they can maintain the high ground it's absolutely a funnel i mean and and this is you know this is another crazy theory too when you talk about you know bugs in water i do a lot of duck photography in the spring and i'll watch hawks set up and
You know, you think like nothing out there eats toads, right? Like you might have a dog that'll gum a toad up and salivate for a while. And I'll watch certain hawks fly in and just key in on those toads and pick them up. And I always watch those turkeys work in those swamp edges. I'm like, are they, you know, they'd grab a frog. I mean, you know, they would. And I'm like, are they keen on, it probably sounds so stupid, but I'm like, there's something there. You know, it doesn't really look like they're catching something, but if it was cold enough, it probably wouldn't be that, you know, probably wouldn't look that crazy. Yeah. And so then,
Towards later season is some of these wetlands and areas dry up. Then you almost lose your advantage. The advantage you had of necking them down or funneling them is because now they've got basically more real estate that they're not afraid to walk through. Or that green-up's changing, right? The green-up used to be on the edge here. Well, now the edge has receded back 100 feet, 100 yards, whatever it is. So now it's basically opened up their path. So early on, you can take advantage of some of those higher water levels and neck them down. So that's an interesting point there.
So one thing that's really hard and I've tried to rewind my brain when this question kind of came up or I was putting it together for you is because once you kind of got your understanding of turkeys, you just kind of know what amount of sign is enough. But let's say you're a brand new hunter, you're brand new to turkey hunting.
How do you know when you go to scout a property of, if enough sign is there, if that makes any sense, you know, like we've been there enough, we just like, Oh, there's enough scat, there's birds, goblin, whatever. But for a new hunter that maybe just doesn't have it figured out yet, you know, there might've been one bird on there a year ago, you know, and that's the sign that you see, um,
what would you look at and when would you be comfortable enough that there's enough sign on this piece to, to, to hunt it? Uh, it depends how fresh it is. And you kind of alluded to this earlier. You know, the good thing about spring in most places, you're going to get some rain and you're going to get a fresh, you know, like a clean slate. Um,
And, you know, it might only you might only have to find a fresh set of Tom tracks that, you know, was made this morning. And that's all you need to set up on that logging road tomorrow. Or, you know, if you haven't had any rain for a while, it's a little drier. And now it's like, OK, I know the sign I'm looking at might be a couple of days or a week old. Then you want as much as possible.
And so I always try to, it's kind of like with whitetails, like, oh, you know, you find a bunch of rubs. That's great. Like, I want to see what's going on too. So that's like, that's a starting point. So if you go out there and you're in that corner of the cut, you know, cornfield or whatever, and you see some, you know, tracks and some, you know, Turkey droppings and like, okay, this, this seems like there's a concentration here.
If there's a way to back that up with observation, then you win. Cause now, you know, and I mean, you know, the good thing about sign that turkeys lay down is, you know, they did it in the day. So at least you have that to work, but you know, the other thing to do, and I know people, they don't think about this very often, but if you're working, if you're like on a small property, like a lot of us in the Midwest and the East are running trail cameras for turkeys is almost cheating. Like it's,
it's crazy how dialed into those patterns you can get them and see with a trail camera. So if you're like, if you're new to it and you're like, I don't know what these tracks mean. Like if you have a trail camera, maybe put it out or it's better to go out in glass if you can, because you know, in-person observation is way better, but there's ways to just kind of go, okay, now I know what's going on here.
Yeah, and I would consider that question a little bit more like pre-scouting, right? You're out there February before they're gobbling, before maybe they've broken, you know, they're still maybe in their winter flocks. But ideally, the best way to proof it is boots on the ground. You know, those turkeys are going to start gobbling
early March, at least where I'm at. They've been gobbling for the last, well, by the time this airs, two months. So you should really go proof it when those birds are there and as they start to break up into the end of March or middle of March, wherever you're at, just go proof that that ground is going to hold turkeys during the spring. And the best way to do that is
Tony mentioned, you know, put eyes on them, put eyes on the ground or just go locate on that, you know, go spend a morning there and you're going to know, you know, probably by the middle of March if there's going to be birds there or not. And I would say the only thing to be careful with there, you know, scouting big flocks is the easiest, but
And the turkeys are so consistent until you get that real green up where the bugs are really a factor. And then those flocks are when they're done, like they're, they're not flocking up anymore, no matter what comes in. And you start to get, you know, by nine, 10 o'clock in the morning when you're sitting out there and you see all those bugs, kind of like when you're fly fishing, like,
You just know those birds are keying on that. And so you might have glassed a flock in the cornfield two weeks ago. And if that green up hits hard and it warms up and those bugs are out, they're going to focus on that food source and it's going to change things for you. Yeah. Change it up real quick.
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Next conversation. So it seems like no matter what, we can be in prime, best managed land in Kansas. We can be in eastern Washington where right now I feel like we're in that first 20 years of turkey reintroduction still. They've been there longer, but they're still in that like predators haven't got them yet. They're still on the upswing. But it seems like no matter how many birds we're in, every
Every once in a while, every season, you just run into that brick wall. And then sometimes that brick wall of no gobbling will stay up for a day. Sometimes it'll last a couple days. It's a lot of times triggered by weather. It could be triggered by them just being henned up. What's your strategy go to there where you feel like
I just seen a bird. I crow called out of my alcohol, that on my turkey called out of my cut at him. And the thing doesn't answer. Like, how do you, you know, how do you hunt with, with purpose and with some confidence at that point? Because sometimes I just, you know, I just get super frustrated. Um, but I'm curious, you know, man, I think, I think the most,
main problem a lot of turkey hunters have is the turkey sounds they've listened to are sounds other turkey hunters make. So they go to YouTube and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but when you listen to wild birds, it's like, it's like being around a herd of elk. When you listen to how cows call and how they communicate, it's
It's just different than listening to somebody explain it to you. And when you spend time around turkeys, there's, we're, we're so keyed in on the loud noises, right? Like the loud yelping sequence, the gobbles, of course. But when you, when you call in birds, hens, and they come in close, even Tom's,
there's a language that it almost doesn't stop. And if you don't hear them make it, you don't know how to like, you don't know how to work on that. So I'm always, I don't, when I'm out there, I'm way too cocky. I'm like, there isn't a bird I can't call in. And there's lots of birds I can't call in. Trust me. I met them. But I always look at that and I go, the bird, the bird that won't gobble at me, that's fine. Like I, I, you can still call in those quiet birds and it's
I always like, just think of it like there's something I got to figure out with my calling to win that dude over. And the more this, I mean, this was really like,
the primary benefit I felt when I bow hunted them for so long was you call in so many hens into your decoys and you get them going and you start going back and forth and they're preening in front of you and you you're getting an education in the sounds they make when they're interacting with other hens and the sounds they make when there's a tom close and it's just like you just have more tools in the kit and so I think I think a lot of times we go out we go well if I can't shock gobble him
he's call shy or whatever, or if I throw him that, that sequence of Yelps and he, you know, he looks, but he doesn't hit me, then he's not workable. And I'm like, man, you got a lot more things you can do. And I think, you know, my thing, you know, you, you would think you hunt pressure birds, right? Like you go out on public land and it's always like tied to subtlety, right? Like be quiet, make soft Yelp, scratch a little bit. I find going the other way helps me a lot. Like I, I think a lot of those birds are out there and they go,
I've heard these hens yelp and purr and cluck and do all the little quiet stuff. But when you start getting fired up, especially if you can run two calls or you have a buddy to go back and forth with, now there's something interesting for them. And I just think a lot of your competition on pressure birds is going the other way. And they're like, I got to, they're not saying much, so I got to be quiet. And man, I usually get real aggressive. And at least then I'm
even if you don't call them in, they'll usually hit you or, or, or change their body language a little bit. And I think that's important, but it's a confidence thing with your calls, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so as far as like, do you continue, do you change up anything as far as like running ridges and locating or like, do you, do you maintain like your same path that you would take if they were gobbling crazy? Or do you ever assume that a bird's there just not answering you? Does that affect like, will you, will you do like,
cold calling setups where you just might set up for tons. If, if things are just slowed way down, you'll just do a cold calling setup and yeah. And you know, I do, I do a lot of map work. Like if I'm hunting a big chunk of public land, like I'm like, where, where can I go? People probably aren't going to go just like the deer and I'll do, uh,
I'll do a lot of cold calling setups, but it'll be, there'll be a reason behind it. Like I'm, I'm here cause I think so. And then I try to give them like two hours and I know people get real impatient if there's no birds going, but man, again, you know, like we talked about before it's proximity. And if you've got birds that are covering the countryside, even if they're not making noise and I'm sitting there and I'm working and it's in a spot that has something going for it,
you know, half hours on enough time, 45 minutes isn't enough time. And, you know, I just think about how often you, you know, especially when you're younger and you're, you're just gung ho and you stand up and you walk 20 yards, birds flush everywhere. Yeah. All the time, man. And so I, I just try to be like, okay, I'm,
I'm going to commit to this spot. I'm going to make it comfortable and I'm going to give it, you know, like, and I will tell myself like, you are not leaving here. It's, it's noon. You're not leaving here till two, no matter what. Set your clock to it. There's no, I'm going to jump ahead a few because it's a great segue into patience, which is something I don't have much of, but you have to, I mean, I've, I've learned and I've been told by the turkeys, as you mentioned multiple times that patience is one of those things that's actually to your, to
to your advantage when turkey hunting, um, you know, how long can you sit still? You know, me just wiggling, you know, 45 minutes into a sit or a minute has cost me birds. Me, you know, thinking I can do something that because there hasn't been any action. So, um,
When, aside from me just setting a clock and is it just a gut feel and how long you're going to sit? If the area is like cold versus lukewarm, like maybe you heard a gobble, you know, half hour into the sit. Does that like, can you run us through like when you're going to move aside from just setting your clock to two hours or is it as simple as just, I'm going to give this two hours because I think that's the right time or that's how big this area is or. Yeah, I,
I just have to force myself. And this is, this comes from the deer world, right? And I mean, partially that and bow hunting turkeys where it's like,
I've done a lot of dark to dark sits in blinds, bull hunting turkeys, and you get, you know, you might have six hours of downtime and then you look out and there's a Tom coming, you know? And so for me, I think that, you know, one of the things that just kills so many people's success is they're just impatient. And I see this, you know, this is in the whitetail space big time, but turkeys, you
because people they're visible. People think they're going to go strike one up or they're going to go see one. There's a lot of covering ground and not as much hunting, you know, guys that, you know, you go hunting over the counter unit for elk in Colorado. You know, if it's the first week, you're probably better off sitting on that water all day, even though most people can't do it. Right. And turkeys, I think we just don't give them enough time. And you got to think, you know, sometimes these birds, you know, we, we all love that bird that runs in, right.
A lot of them don't, especially when it's greened up and they've had some pressure. They just need time. And the other thing that I've noticed just after doing it a lot, no matter how brushy it is, I feel like I've got like,
better than normal, uh, eyesight and can pick things up that are unnatural. And, and we've had birds coming in where I know there's a bird within 80 or 90 yards and I can't pick the dang thing up. And you know, that little head's bobbing around. And so it's like, be patient, don't move, only move when you, you know, when, when you absolutely know, cause we've all taken those risks, like getting our gun up or turning where we think the bird's going to come. Um, and, and, you know, that kind of tags on to the patience of time, but it's like,
They're so good, and it's seeing you, seeing movement, seeing any of that, being patient, only moving when you can is going to be to your advantage because like you said, I flush birds by getting up after a half hour. I've got birds to run away because I've moved my knee at the wrong time. Patience goes a long way when turkey hunting. Just being comfortable. That was one thing me and Jordan talked about last week on the podcast was birds.
becoming as comfortable as you can, um, under the tree, we've actually went to using foldable, like low sitting chairs just because we can sit there for hours and not have to move. And it's, it's, um, as stupid as a little chair would seem, um, has probably upped my odds, you know, 50% on those long call. And just cause I'm more willing to sit there for, for long sits. Yeah. You gotta be comfortable. Yeah. I mean, if you need to pop out a little blind or whatever, so important. Yep. If you're, if it'll keep you there. Yep. Yep. For sure. Um,
So I want to talk about patterning off the roost. Back when I was younger, maybe a little more bloodthirsty, one thing every morning we needed to kill the turkeys that we sat up on. We sat up on those so we would literally chase those turkeys until we bumped them or killed them, it seemed like, every time. And so one thing as we're getting older is more patterning off the roost. If you have time available within the hunt, you have five, six more days,
do you ever pattern off the roost? Like these birds sat here, they went this way. I'm going to take that as a learning day. I'm going to leave them alone. I'm going to listen to them. I'm going to shadow them, but I'm never going to get close enough to bump them and then use that against them on the following day. And how important that can be, you know, for your success, especially on public ground where you're, you're finding, you know, maybe not as many birds as you want. And that's really your only play all the time. I mean, that's,
I'm a scouter, man. And I like observation. And so if I, and that, I mean, again, that's kind of the patient's thing. If you, if you have to sandbag a day, a day to kind of watch them, and that's so hard to do with turkeys because you can always move in on them. But like I said, you know, if you see them do something, as long as you know, the conditions don't drastically change or somebody comes in there and blows it up, they're going to do it tomorrow. And I think that,
when you talk about patterning off the roost, I mean, that's, you know, guys were preaching about that in Alabama 50 years ago, right? That's like kind of old school advice. I take it way...
way further and i go can you pattern them throughout the day you know because a lot of times they're not that killable off the roost they're not i shouldn't say they're not that callable off the roost because they're going to be following those hens and they're going to play that game till nine ten o'clock in the morning and then you start getting a window on a lot of birds and so yeah it's great to know where they're going to start and where they're going to end up
super valuable but if you also know where they end up at noon or you know 10 in the morning or two in the afternoon then you're really putting something together yeah yeah and we used to like I said you I would for some reason justify the decision we would make that I think we can crawl to this point and cross that fence there and then we'll catch back up to him and kill that bird right because we've watched them all morning versus
I think as we've, as I've grown up as a turkey hunter, like, well, they walked by that little pinch point on the ridge meadow or whatever it may be. You know, they walked by there. They're most likely into it tomorrow. Let's just go back and have a sandwich or go try to locate some other birds that we haven't, you know, we may not screw up and then go and kill that bird tomorrow because they're
Chances are, you know, as long as they don't get bumped and not crazy weather, wind switches, they're going to be back in that same area versus me trying to justify how I'm going to crawl through a field and go kill that bird when, you know, chances are under a percent, you know, before we do it. Dude, but that's a rite of passage. When you're starting out, you're going to,
you're going to get too close a lot and there's nothing, there's like no easier way to blow up a hunt to getting too close to the roost in the morning. Like it just, it's hard, man. Yep. Um, so another great segue into cutting the distance, you know, the name of the podcast and it's one of those things is, you know, to cut the distance, there's two ways that can be accomplished. One, you either have the bird cut the distance or you use your own feet to cut the distance. Um,
Um, I feel that cutting the distance, um, as a Turkey hunter is maybe, you know, the highest level of achievement as far as like woodsmanship goes. Um, you know, yeah, they can't smell you so you can approach from any direction, but as far as like getting caught needing to use terrain vegetation to your advantage and not getting picked off is, is as tough as it gets while you're wild Turkey hunting, especially since there's multiple eyes. But, um,
in your opinion like how close do you want to be before you start your calling um and you may have to add some um context to that as far as you know vegetation what it allows but what's your idea like always closer the better but but what's that like magic circle to that bird you know i i think like
you know 75 to 100 yards is like red zone for a turkey like i think if you can get into that range i mean i've had so many times not not a ton but i've killed quite a few birds in my life where i heard them or i knew they were there and i got into as close as i was like this is this is as much as i'm going to risk it and i'll scratch out a spot to sit and that's enough i mean they're coming because you're just you're there you know and it's so for me it's it's you know
Pretty close, but if you get to 75 yards on a bird, especially early season, you're in trouble a lot of times. It kind of depends if it's early or late. I'm not huge on pushing it too much. If I know there's a bird there and I think I can work him, I don't need to be super close. I would say just kind of, again, be a little bit cautious, but sometimes the terrain lets you get right there. I killed a bird in Nebraska a few years ago with my bow.
It was just strutting his ass off on a ridge top. And he was, I couldn't get him down to where I was. And I got up there and I got real close to that bird. Cause I had a quiet way to get up there. And I called him over that Ridge. Cause I was like 20 yards away before I made a peep. And then, you know, you're, I mean, you're talking a little soft, you're not going to blow his ears out here, but for that bird to walk over and look, you know, and if you can get to like 50 yards on them, even, you know, especially if you're gun hunting, uh,
man they're gonna give you your look like you're gonna get your chance but you better be ready yep um is there ever a situation where you feel like stalking the turkey is the right answer versus setting up and trying to call have you ever you know i i've killed birds that way um i i don't like it i mean it's just you can do it you know um i just love calling them yeah you know i i love i love that part of the process and so that's that's part of the reason i bow on them so much
Is it such an accomplishment to me to just get them? Yeah. Like my decoys are seven yards away and I want them, I want them to buy the whole thing, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, you can do it, but it's, you know, especially when you're out West and they're super visible, like that's a, that's a possibility, but yeah.
if you want to if you want to really enjoy turkey hunting you learn how to call yeah yeah i i love calling them but there was there was one bird where i just got my ass whipped all morning right we were on six or seven setups i had lost a couple decoys because i didn't want to go grab them while i was still trying to stay with the birds and you know they had one of those nasty old boss hens that just drug them away from our setup every time and um as much as i'd rather call them in like there was something satisfying about you know a flock of i think it was 14 or 15 birds and
I enjoyed it, but yeah, on public ground, it's always a little bit dangerous. But yeah, it's definitely a different challenge, but I think I'm like you. I'd rather call them in. And that leads me to my next question. We talk a lot about calling birds on cutting distance, but can you kind of roll through kind of your calling system? Like, is there a strategy you've mentioned in the past on public land? Sometimes you'll actually do the opposite of what you think, call out. Or if you're hunting private birds, like just kind of go through
um, your, your calling system if there is one or, um, so it, it, I like to, unless I, unless I know where the birds are and I know the birds I'm working are, you know, they're 300 yards away or whatever it, let's just say if I'm running and gunning and I set up in a spot, I stop at a spot. I'm like, yeah, this is a spot. I'm always going to check them real quiet.
Like real soft yelps, a little bit of purring maybe, just to see... Because a lot of times you might not get a tom to gobble, but you'll get a hen to respond. And so they almost always give you a courtesy yelp, right? So not to stop you here real quick. So even if you think you're a couple hundred yards away, you're going to go to turkey calls versus using your locators anymore? That's one thing I still struggle with is...
We think there's a bird here. I almost want to know where he's at again. Do you go to your turkey calls now or do you go to your locators? I don't, I go to my turkey calls mostly. If I'm, if I'm in a situation where I'm moving and there's times where I'm going to use a locator a lot, but if I'm just going through a say it's the dead time in the morning and I don't have much going on,
If I find a place where I'm like, I want to set up here, right. For whatever reason, this, this is the spot and I'm committed to it already. I'm going to set up and I'm going to start soft and you know, I'll ramp it up if I don't get a response after a while, but almost every calling sequence that I have that that's a cold call is
i'm starting off soft just in case and then i never leave without doing a locator you know one more yeah just going away yeah just because you know like you don't know man like that he might not hit anything you make and that crow caller that owl hoop might get him or uh you know you gobble on them depending on where you're at gobble with a mouth call or whatever but yeah it just depends but i always i always just assume like maybe there's one close and i want to like i
I want to know it. Even if it's just a lone hen or something, I want to know they're there before I really ramp it up. So are you under the idea that you just kind of feed him what he likes? Are you going to start with real soft clucks and purrs and then kind of graduate? Or are you going to always go to our seven to... We talked about the seven to nine note yelp. Is there...
you know, we always talk about levels of threat when we're elk hunting, you know, we're, we go in there, we don't necessarily want to, we do at times, depending on the bull's demeanor leading up to that. But, you know, we may rip his head off right off the bat, or we may like, let's try a cow call, see if he hooks on that. And then if not, let's try an excited cow call. And if that doesn't work, maybe we'll do like a little moaning bugle, you know, and you kind of run these progressions because there is times, um, no matter how much we get, uh, you know, uh,
we get accused of bugling too much and too aggressively. There are some progressions we run. Um, kind of what's your thought there? Are you going to just kind of start at like the lowest level or are you just going to read the situation or what's the first peep coming out of your mouth and how do you decide to kind of,
I start quiet, but I don't stay there very long. And if, you know, especially if I've got a bird, I'm like that bird's hot or I've got a hen that's responding. When I get a hen to respond, I go after her hard. I don't, I'm not a, I get after it. Like I, I like, you know, cause we always think like,
You know, softer is always better. And I do like to start that way, but I like to have a conversation with them. And I think you, I think you can turn them on, you know, like I think you get those birds that, yeah, they'll respond. But if you're, you know,
three or five yelps and you're done or you know just just soft stuff like they're like yeah that's what turkeys do when they're not really doing anything but you know like you mentioned that you know boss hen leading that gobbler away like my favorite thing is when i get that hen to talk to me and i can piss her off just stomp on her yeah if you get that hen if you get a hen that's that's angry and she starts cutting
you're going to get a bird fired up. Like there's, there's nothing better out there. And it, you know, I, I really learn this hunt and fall birds cause hens get real territorial in the fall and they'll come in and chest bump decoys. I mean, you see it in the spring too, but it's real common in the fall for them to get territorial over food sources and,
And man, when you get them going and they're pissed, the world changes. And so, I mean, if you have a live hand doing it, that's great, but you can do that. I mean, I can do that with a mouth call and a pod call. And you know, you can do it with a box call too, but you can make that happen.
like confrontation happen and tom's just freaking love it yeah i'm i'm with you like there's nothing better than when you get a tom hooked on cutting because then you know like you're at the you know you can just be as aggressive as possible and you know when they gobble every cut you're just like the game's too easy i don't want to say too easy at that point but it
that it's way better than the bird where you're like, all right, he doesn't answer clucks. He doesn't answer it. I yell, you know, it's like you're trying to figure out what's going to work and maybe, you know, nothing does, but I'm, I'm similar. You kind of start slow, but as you know, you run through your four or five different progressions and if none of them hook, you run back through them loud. And then if nothing hooks, you're just like, all right, I don't know what to do or it's going to be a real tough bird to call in. But yeah, I think
Similar to you, we go loud real quick. I mean, but you're also at a huge advantage if you can see them. Because, I mean, you see this a lot where, especially like alone times, you see this a lot where they'll come out in the field, they're scratching, they'll throw you some struts, gobbles, whatever. They're kind of doing their thing, but you can tell...
It's probably not the bird you want to just go after. He can see your decoys. He can hear you. And I, I go the opposite way with a bird like that. If I can watch him where then I do a lot of soft purring and clucking and just like little hen chatter back and forth where it's, you know, if you're gun hunting, it's different with bow hunting. Cause a lot of times they won't commit right to the decoys, but you'll get that drive by. Yep.
And they'll be in gun range. And it's one of those things that just kind of like, it kind of just like pulls them closer. It's not that typical run in and just make it happen. But they're like, okay, I'm going to get closer to you ladies just because. Yep. And that's...
We get asked quite a bit, like, when do you just stop calling? You know, because you hear a lot of that's just as, in my opinion, sometimes just as valuable as the calling, especially turkeys. And I use that no calling is when you've got a turkey that's not super fired up, not super interested, but it seems like he's closed some distance.
I'll just go to like similar to you. I'll set my watch for 15 minutes. He obviously knows exactly what tree I'm under. When he gets to a certain spot, he's going to be able to see my decoys. One thing I have to do is just make sure my gun's kind of pointed in the somewhat right direction because he's going to probably be silent as I'm silent. But yeah, you either be quiet and then either one, he'll come all the way in.
silent or he gets he gets a little bit frustrated maybe five seven ten minutes into that weight and he'll finally gobble again and then it seems like you can get him fired up after that versus like just
giving him and so that's kind of when i'll use that silent treatment is when i think i got something semi-interested kind of knows where we're at there's not a lot more calling needed he's either going to come or not and then um just go quiet for a little bit yeah that that bird that lets you know he's there and is just doesn't feel workable you just got to let it breathe for a while and you know i mean sometimes they come in sometimes they don't but
sometimes in that situation all it takes is another bird somewhere else you know i mean you see this a lot on a field edge where you're calling to that that bird and he's strutting he's not coming he can he can see the decoys he's like you you guys can see me and then you know two jakes walk out in the other corner or some you know something changes the dynamic and then all of the sudden you know like now he's callable but that is a you know learning that like you can't
Like you could tell people that like, Oh, you got to take a break. Like that's like just an experience thing. Yeah. Yeah. I have to put it through, through a lot of time. Like you say, just, just let it breathe is sometimes going to, going to get the, that, that turkey fired up even more in closing. What is one tip you would give a turkey hunter to help them find success this, this spring, as far as like, you know, an idea, a theme, you know, calling, you know,
you know, perseverance, whatever it may be. You know, I would, we talked a lot about scouting, but I, I, I honestly think what makes Turkey hunters is just confidence with the calls. And so I would say, I think everybody should know how to use a mouth call just cause. And, you know, it,
whatever people have their preferences, but I would say if nothing else, figure out how to Yelp well with something, you know, and it, I let, you know, I like mouth calls for a lot of reasons. Um, but I would say learn some, learn that like you don't have to, you know, purrs, clucks, whatever, like you don't have to do, you can kill a lot of birds just Yelping, but you gotta know how to do it. And it's, it is not a sound when you listen to somebody Yelp,
it's like a two note sound and people listen to other callers and it's like too fast. The cadence is just a little off and they're not breaking that note, right? Like it's just like a one note, too fast cadence and it's unnatural. But if you listen to somebody do it, it's like, okay, well it doesn't, it sounds like a turkey, whatever. Then you listen to a real turkey and you go, okay, they're a lot slower and there's like a real distinct break in each yelp. Yeah.
And I'd say just like master that as best you can work on it in your truck when you're driving, whatever, because once you get that confidence, you're going to call in more birds. You're going to hear them make real sounds and you're just going to, your, your vocabulary is going to expand, but you got to have that confidence first. Yep. Perfect. Perfect. So, uh, Tony, how can people find out more about you? How they, can they follow along with what you're doing?
Yeah, they can, you know, head on over to Instagram at Tony J. Peterson. And, you know, I'm a meat eater full timer. So all of my stuff is at TheMeatEater.com. I'm writing tons of turkey articles right now. But yeah, there's a lot of good information out there. Yeah.
Yeah, well, really appreciate having you on here today. A wealth of information, both whitetail and obviously turkey. Yeah, we got to talk turkey, or we got to talk whitetails, buddy. Yeah, we're going to get you dialed up here for a whitetail episode for sure. Awesome. Thanks, man. Thanks a lot, Tony. Thanks, man.
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