Ep. 26: Duck Calls and Duck Hunting Strategies with Alex Yerges
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On today's episode, we're going to tackle a subject I know just a little bit about, and by a little, I mean not very much at all, but I definitely have enjoyed it, duck hunting. I've only been in the duck goose blind a combined four times, which pretty much makes me as far from an expert as you can get, but today's guest is my good friend, Alex Yerges from Pacific Calls. He spent a bunch of time with the birds and has even more knowledge, I would say, regarding the ducks.

and duck calls. So welcome to the show, Alex. Hey, thanks, Jay. Glad to be here. How have things been besides busy? You know, just busy. I mean, as you know, because we talk every now and then, you know, in the middle of building a shop and trying to get some construction done in the cold weather and doing all that. So we've had some very interesting days as of late.

Yeah. And for all of you that don't know, Alex, um, is co-owner of Pacific calls. Um, they do a lot of work with us for us. Um, over the last, I'd say five years, five or six years, we've, we've worked together. We've grown together. It's, it's been awesome. Um, but I know when the, to wave the white flag and bring in some duck hunting experts, some duck call experts. So I'm, I'm glad to have them here. Um,

Yeah. In talking with the local duck hunters here, it seems to be a pretty slow, rough start, even though as a Western big game hunter, it seems like we've got the cold weather. It seems like we've got the snow, but evidently the, it hasn't been the right weather, at least down the I-5 corridor to bring any ducks. And they said they've, they've been, you know, shoot limits here and there, but it just hasn't been as good as it has the past 20 years yet.

Yeah, no. And I mean, we've run into a little bit of that and, you know, we're, we're, we're in kind of a different, you know, into the flyway. The Cascades really do divide us, you know, pretty, pretty much. And so we, we spent a little time and up in Alberta chasing them around and there was, there was tons of food. There was a, you know, a fair amount of water for them to hang around in. So I think you're,

Your guys are probably right. They just haven't seen the crazy amount of weather to really freeze them out and start pushing them down, even though it feels like they should be here. I'm guessing they're, you know, maybe one more real good cold snap or at least a long length of time cold snap before we'll be into them pretty thick. Yeah, they expect here in the next, you know, within the next two weeks, we've got some cold hitting right now. We're supposed to be in the, you know, the high teens, low 20s for the next couple weeks. Hopefully we'll get a new push of birds in here. So yeah.

Yeah, you know, from a calendar standpoint, that's usually about right for us to in between Thanksgiving and Christmas is when we typically see our, you know, most of the migration, you know, pass through here. Gotcha. So it might be on par, just maybe a little bit slower. So like we start all of these podcasts, we're going to start with two questions from users. And the funny thing is, I'm not a

prolific waterfowl hunter, duck hunter. So I had to go dig for some of these questions on some of our past posts. But if you have a question of your own for cutting the distance and my guests, please email us at CTD at Phelps game calls dot com or just go ahead and send over your questions to me via message and we'll get them on here. So the first question I was able to pull, do you need decoys to duck hunt? What's your opinion on that?

I mean, for myself, yes, but technically in most ants, as long as you've got an area that the ducks are coming to, you're not necessarily trying to attract them, maybe a small body of water or something like that. No, you do not technically have to have them. You can also jump shoot them legally if you would like. That's not necessarily the preferred way to do it. So, I mean, the most legal answer to the question is no, you absolutely do not have to have them. But for myself, my preferred method of hunting is indeed over decoys.

- Yeah, and so like I say, very inexperienced, went on a duck hunt last year. We hunted from boat one time, we had more duck decoys than we needed, the entire boat was full, we rode on duck decoys out there. And so one day we set eight dozen decoys, the other day we hiked into a spot, you carry a half a dozen decoys and maybe a jerk rig with you.

um you know in washington you know electric rigs are illegal so we're you know we're creating movement with jerk rigs or or does do you feel it matters do they become more comfortable when they see a spread of you know five dozen ducks you know 10 dozen ducks or just a small group have you noticed much difference you know with i'm thinking from a perspective of a new duck hunter you know maybe you only want to buy six 12 see if you even like it like are you going to notice a huge difference on you know

You know, birds can be, you know, I think it honestly depends a lot about a lot about where, where you're hunting in the situation that you're in as well. Again, like my spread almost always 100% is adjusted depending upon where I'm hunting. If I have more of an open water kind of scenario, I typically go with a, you know, with a bigger spread. I've got more room. If I'm in a small spread, I mean about 18 is the most that I would, you know, take. And again, it is,

kind of predicated on a how many trips you want to make whether you're carrying them whether you do have a boat a cart anything along those lines so i don't think there really is necessarily a magic number um you know but i can tell you the idea of i'll get more ducks if i just have more decoys is definitely a fallacy

Yeah. And like I say, I'm coming from a very elementary point of view here. And so I'm just observing what I'm seeing. It seemed like the number one thing, and we'll probably get into that here in a little bit, is like just being on the location was more important than how many ducks. We had seen that this corner was loaded up with ducks a day before we go sit on it. And of course, the ducks just want to be there anyway. So it made sense.

made our lives easier. And I'm going to expand a little bit on this question, which kind of surprised me is like the jerk rigs and the movement on some of these decoys. As we're sitting there, you know, ducks are approaching from above. They've got great eyesight. And all of a sudden,

I need to be moving my arm and pulling this thing, you know, three feet each way. Is that typical? Like, well, these ducks, as long as they're focused on movement on the water, let you get away with some of the extra movement. Like to me is a big game hunter. Like the last thing I want to do is something approaches is like start waving my arm around, you know, regardless how well I think I'm covered out front, like they're above me. Like I assume they could see me.

You know, correct. I mean, we always have that, you know, that mantra, whatever you want to try to minimize movement in the blind, but maximize movement on the water. And so, you know, we're very much so in tune as far as trying to make sure that we've got a correct hide. You know, you want to have stuff covering over the top of you. And, you know, I...

In some ways, ducks are, easier is not the correct word as far as that goes, but your movements and the attraction level that you're at, you're kind of way more separated from them. And so you can get away with a little bit more than you can in like a big game scenario. But we certainly do our best to try to make sure that we are covered up 100%, faces are down, nothing bright and glaring. And yeah, you know, you try to minimize as little movement as you possibly can.

Yeah. And we're going to try to focus this on duck, but I know I got to hunt with, you know, the co-owner Pacific calls your partner there, Trevor, um, geese hunting and like it, you know, we've got to be so still inside this blind, like no, no facial. But yet when the geese are coming into the field, somebody is allowed to jump out with this big white flag and like wave it around. I'm like, all right, I'm confused. I don't know what you're allowed to do. I don't know what, what,

what's good and what's bad, but it just, you know, is, is me trying to wrap my head around. I have to, had to laugh about like what you can get away with yet. What you can't get away with, um, is, is these waterfowler approach. And so, um, Oh, big, you're going to run into that. Yeah. This one will tie right into, um,

you know, the event that was last weekend, the world duck calling championships, and then kind of what we do on the duck calling side, how good of a duck caller do you need to be to be effective? Is there, is there a threshold you need to be at least as good to kill any ducks? You know, if you're better, you'll call it more like in your opinion. Um, you know, a lot of these guys get to, you know, everybody you get to listen to on social media, you know, typically is a good duck caller, maybe way better, you know, way better than average. Um,

And so I think a lot of these people that are sometimes timid or don't even want to blow on a duck hole when they get out there, but how good do you have to be to be effective for it to work? I mean, realistically not, you know,

Not incredibly. The entire idea of the call is to get their attention and to add a little bit level of realism into the hunt. And so if you are in a situation where, you know, it's a quiet body of water or something along those lines, one of the more effective calls that you can have in your arsenal, believe it or not, is actually a little whistle, you know, just doing a Drake whistle or a teal whistle or a wigeon or something along those lines. And that's,

that takes very, very little skill level to operate. And I'm glad you mentioned something like worlds, because if anybody paid attention to worlds, that is not a competition in which you're attempting to actually call ducks like you would hunt them. That is an operator contest to prove that you can run a call from the absolute highest echelon that it can be ran at all the way down to the lowest. So there's a little bit of a caveat with that. But as far as in the field goes, I would say the effective side of it or the level that you need to be at is

If you can make realistic simple noises the duck calls going to benefit your hunt as opposed to not benefit behind and you know being in the Waterfowl sphere with a lot of guys going to trade shows doing that the worst thing that someone does is they try to you know run before they can walk a basic quack a simple chatter You know and like maybe a three or five note sequence is really all that you you know technically need in order to you know,

get results or help produce results. If you're trying to do 20 note highballs and machine gun feeds and all this other stuff, that's just not that effective in the field to begin with. And not to mention, you don't have the skill level to pull it off. It's just a lose-lose. You're doing more harm than good at the point where you're trying to make all these sounds, but yet it's not effective or not natural. That makes a ton of sense. We see that. We see it on the competition stage on elk as well. We make a bunch of

sounds up there that it's like I would never make in the woods when I'm trying to call a bull in or you know it's just it's no exactly like I said that

for the, for the stage only is to prove that you're able to, you know, run a call in its, you know, high capacity or, you know, just, just do things that other people just can't simply do. So it's, you know, it's duck calling has kind of that same, that same aspect. Yeah. Well, I've got a bunch of other questions on duck calls, but we'll save those towards the end, but that's going to wrap it up for the, for the Q and a section. Once again, if you have any questions of your own, please email us at CTD at

phelpsgamecalls and we'll make sure to get your question up and get it answered either by myself or our guests. Now we're going to jump into some of the duck hunting and duck hunting or duck call questions that I have. So

I would consider myself here. I have got to go out in the field, you know, four or five times and got to see from, you know, people that know what they're doing, kind of what they've got. But I want to break this down on what are the absolutes? Like what does a new waterfowl hunter need to go chase ducks versus what are, you know, maybe what would be

nice or preferred and then kind of what are the luxuries i guess um you know me on the outside three years ago never never picking up a you know a shotgun to go chase ducks it's like well my mossberg 835 work or do i need to have a new benelli you know super black eagle whatever that is now two or three or whatever you know and there was a little bit of like is there a difference and so like walk us through that what what you need what's nice to have and then what's a real luxury

Sure. Well, I mean, you know, if you're, if you're going to do it on a, on a super, super basic level, there's, you know, you, you have to have a shotgun, um, you know, gear wise, something warm, kind of like big game hunting. You want, you know, you want to dress for, you know, the appropriate stuff as far as like,

It doesn't matter what the gear is. Absolutely not. My first shotgun was an old, you know, Remington 870 from Walmart. And then I thought that I needed, you know, a big Benelli after that and everything else. It turns out that whether you shoot with the, you know, the cheap pump or the mill, you got to hit the bird regardless to, you know, make things happen.

I will admit that as you get into nicer things, there's some performance factor stuff that they, you know, tout or, you know, tell you that you need and it can help. But most of it all relies on just your individual skill set. And so focusing on your ability to, you know, track, bird, shoot, things like that is going to be way more important than the gun that's on your shoulder.

Okay. And then other than that gear wise, I mean, like, you know, for, for myself, uh, starting out, you know, I was definitely a, you know, a public rat race kind of hunter. I had, uh, you know, a dozen hop buys, a set of Cabela's waders and my snowboarding jacket with my, you know, with my eight 70 and you can, you can still get it done. I mean, like it, it is, it is a very gear heavy side of the sport. Cause we're the guys that run around and you know, the, the,

I call it designer fashion wear, Sitka gear, and you know, all the other stuff. And like, Oh, if I have Optifade on, it means I kill more birds. And it's like, it definitely is not that way. Um, you know, it's very comfortable. It's nice to have, but it's not, it's not needed. You can still get it done with the same, you know, army green wool pants that, uh, grandpa had on. Yep. And then, um,

one of the things as a new waterfowl hunter that really um was overwhelming for me was like duck identification because you look like all right you're in the pacific flyaway i can shoot one pintail i can shoot you know two i don't remember what it was you know you go through uh you know whether it's widgeon or god godwell and these they all have limits and and this or that um

What would be a good resource? Because I had somebody else calling the shots for me. Towards the end of the first day, I got to be able to identify pintails and widgeon and teal were...

I would see them and then I wouldn't. And then I'd be like, Oh, that was a teal. You know, I started to figure things out, you know, but like duck identification, you know, sun in your eyes, what's a good resource and how does somebody gain confidence, you know, in identifying ducks so that you don't, you don't have that fear or worry of going out there and, you know, you know, shoot the wrong limit. Oh no. And I mean, you know, we take a fair amount of people out and you're doing the same thing. And I, I can't stress enough that, you know, even as a new waterfowl hunter, you know,

Doing your research as far as, you know, what your local state provides you with regulations. Most of the time they do have, you know, pictures and things like that. But Google, you know, any type of Internet source to try to find and be better at identifying birds is huge. The other side of it is time in the field. There is a patience factor that it takes to learn how to identify birds and do things. And if you don't know what it is, you shouldn't be shooting it regardless. So even if you are missing your limit opportunity to literally –

Have a bird come in and say, I think that's a pintail. And then let it go by and go, yep, that was a pintail. That's a better approach to what you're doing instead of just, ah, shoot it, and I thought it was a pintail. And it turns out it was.

And so, you know, for myself and even when we're taking other people there, we don't have the answers all the time. But if you can kind of learn to get that patience factor in it, more than likely that bird is going to come by again and you'll get another crack at it. But until you can positively identify what that bird is, you know, my recommendation to a new guy is to just be patient. You're going to be able to figure it out over and over and over again as you see them over and over and over again. But don't jump the gun and shoot something that you shouldn't.

Yep. And then as a new waterfowl hunter, one of the things I'm this is fresh in my mind because all this stuff doesn't make sense to me is like, all right, you got to get a migratory bird on your license and then you got to buy a duck stamp. And I'm like, all right, you can't get a duck stamp if you want to go hunting, you know, this weekend. And so like there are some states like I think I was able to jump like on Wyoming since I already had like a big game license. I was able to get like an E stamp, you know, through the state of Wyoming because I don't believe I could get one from Washington that quickly. So

So, no, and I mean, it kind of depends on some of the hierarchies there. And so like, for instance, in Washington state, which is where I'm a resident of, I am required to purchase my small game license. I'm required to purchase my migratory bird. I believe they call it endorsement. I don't know if that term is correct there for Washington state. And then at the federal level, I have my duck stamp. So if I have one duck stamp that I bought for Washington state, that federal duck stamp

is good for all of the states there and then each individual states whether I go to Missouri or any of the other places that we travel to quite often, I may have to buy a migratory validation for that individual state but at the federal level by having the duck stamp I've met that requirement.

Gotcha. That makes, that makes more sense. And like I said, I was just, you know, my, my duck hunts are usually somebody calls me on a Thursday night. Like, do you want to go on Saturday? And I'm like, well, I can't, you know, so then you're scrambling to buy an E stamp. Um, but, but it works. Yeah. And you can get, you can get the E stamps, get them there, you know, print them out. What they're really after is, did you, you know, did you put into the, you know, the federal fund, whether or not you have the stamp there, it, it goes back and forth some, I think now if I'm

not mistaken. You don't even have to deface them anymore. They don't require you to sign them and have them. You can just put it on your license or do whatever. But that federal stamp, man, I've been on a few different times where it's like, oh crap, can you go to the post office and go find me those? Because they're out at sportsmen's. And so we've been running around all over hell trying to find them. Gotcha.

So we touched on it a little bit in the Q&A, but in my limited experience, the blind locations or being on the X, and this is public land, a lot of people probably get to go out to their private pond, private lake, private edge, and they just know where they need to be. But my first entry to duck hunting was potholes there in Moses Lake.

you know, last year and, you know, it's public water, everything's wide open. And so we spent the first day scouting. And as I mentioned earlier, you know, your blind location or being on the X maybe seems to, at least to me, seems to be more important than anything.

can you confirm that you had mentioned it earlier but what goes into finding you know what do the ducks want you know how does the wind affect that location what are you looking for because like some of the stuff like i oh a bird can't smell what's the wind matter but i realized really quickly like wind you know in a certain direction mattered um kind of go through all that what's the ideal blind setup um cover and then we'll go what factors go into picking that spot

Sure. Well, I mean, you did hit the nail on the head. Location is, you know, absolutely the number one deal. I can go to my parking lot and set up all my decoys and call all I want, but I'm still not going to get a bird there. And so like you, you have to make sure that you're in an area that does have, you know, does have birds in it. And so the scouting is absolutely huge.

We spend more time scouting than we do hunting. We'll check a field two, three, four days in advance of a hunt. If we find something, we'll usually watch it build for a day. You know, we spend more time looking through the binos than we do actually out in the field pulling the trigger. Now, a lot of our stuff is indeed, you know, field hunting. You know, you're patterning birds. You're doing things a little different, whereas like potholes or, you know, a public waterway, it's more about whether or not there's just birds in the general area, and then you have to try to find a way to, you know, find...

meet the criteria that you want. And so to answer the other side of the question, blind location, things like that, a lot of the times in a public hunting scenario, you're just kind of stuck with what you're given. And so even if the wind's not perfect, the sun's not perfect, you've got to try to find a way to make it work for you. For myself, I always try to make sure that the wind is coming over my back

And that way the birds are forced more to land with the wind and coming into me for an easier shot. And that's really where the wind direction comes in. For big game, I know you want the wind kind of going the other way so the animal doesn't smell you or take off you. Like you said, I don't think the birds can smell me yet.

I think there's research on whether they can smell or not. But for me, I'm more worried about if the wind's going this way, the bird is more likely to follow this flight path. And so I'll try to set up my blind to shoot a certain way based on the wind and then also set my decoys and spread based upon that wind. And then as the hunt progresses, you may have to adjust that.

to get them to all to line up perfectly where you got the sun at your back, the wind at your back, your decoys in the right spot and birds in the area. Oh man, you got to count your buy a lotto ticket that day. Yeah. And you alluded to one thing which was kind of surprising. We went over there and we spent the entire first day scouting. I'm like, I just assume duck hunters go sit on the water somewhere and you start quacking on a call and they're eventually going to

you know, show up to you. So we, we spent the morning glassing where the ducks wanted to be. Like, where are we seeing the most amount of ducks sitting on the water? Gathered all that information. And then we were hunting from a boat to get to these locations, went around on the boat and,

And then we drove the boat. You know, we used Onyx. We knew what corner it was on. You know, potholes is kind of crazy because there's water everywhere and you don't know which turns which or what corners which corner. So we all confirm. And then we drive the boat out there through that section of water looking for where are we going to set up? Do we have natural cover? Do we need to bring in and make a blind? Like where can we park the boat? All of this stuff starts to matter. And we got to a spot where we figured we had enough space

you know, natural cover. We had a pretty, a pretty good, probably a 30 or 40 foot rise across from us. So the birds that were flying on the water didn't see our setup until they were there. So it was kind of just naturally they were going to fly by there anyways. Um, and then we had pretty good open, uh, water behind us on the, on the big water. So we could let our calls ring. And so, you know, some of these things added up and it was, you know, I think we had limited out by, by midday. And so it was a good hunt, but I started to notice like

It was more about that spot because potholes, public land, lots of people hunting it near the holidays. And in my opinion, and maybe good callers or too many good callers,

But you would just see birds flying over and the call didn't really seem to do anything. It was just there were because you would you could hear the guys, you know, the next blind over. They would see the birds slightly after we did. And then they would start their their their calling sequence. And then the guys past them would see. And it was one of those things where it's like, all right,

In my opinion, and maybe it's a skewed opinion based on the situation we were given, but man, you just want to be where those ducks want to be and blow on the call, get them to recognize your spread, and then that's really what matters, not necessarily how good you can call, how loud you can call, any of that stuff. Those birds were going to where they wanted to be anyways.

Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, it does depend on the situation and where you're at. I mean, obviously, 90% of the battle is just being where, you know, where the birds want to be. After that, now we're starting to get into the subtleties. Are they responding to the call? Are they not? Do you even need to call? Are they just dropping right in? Like, it sort of depends where you're at. We also, you know, hunt situations where we call it running traffic, where you're, you know, putting yourself in a flyway where they're flying over the top of you. You know they're going somewhere else, and you're just making as much noise and trying to be as crazy as possible to get them to be like, oh, wait, no, the...

party's over here it's not over there and then they you know line up and run you so depending upon the situation that you're in sometimes the calling works sometimes it doesn't and yeah in a place like potholes man those birds hear every person from every side of the state blowing at them from every corner

I think my philosophy on potholes for a while was like, if I just leave my calls in the boat, I'm probably going to be more successful because everybody else already call at them. Yeah. And on that one, not knowing whether we sit here all day or whether we move, we kept seeing all these birds hit water, probably a half mile kind of back to us to the right and then no gunshots. And we're like,

we know that there's a million hunters on the water. There just must not be hunters on that. And so we use that information. We went and took a, you know, a half mile, three quarter, three quarters of a mile hike through the brush and went and found where all these birds were landing. And then, you know, adjusted our setup for the next day. Um, you know, just, just to be where those birds wanted to be. Um, you know, obviously you're getting bumped out of all the spots with all the blinds and everybody else hunting. Um, so yeah, it was just, uh, I

I think, you know, all hunting in general, whether it's big game, whether it's predator, like just being a smart hunter and realizing like, let's not force the issue on the, on the spot or the exit we're hunting. Like they obviously want to be over there. Let's, let's move our setup the next day, that evening, whatever it may be. Um, and go to the ducks and not make the ducks come to us.

Oh, well, and I mean public duck hunting that's always the mantra, you know No matter what you do you have to be able to pivot and be flexible and you know move When something's not working something's not going your way. You want to try to salvage the hunt as much as possible So yeah, I mean, you know make a switch pull the decoys move something go find a different spot and you know Also have the the same wherewithal one You're gonna get up one day and go give it a shot and everything looks great, but it's just not your day Yep. Yep. Um

So we, we were just hunting all day until we hit limits. If you had to pick, you know, do you prefer morning and evening or do you just, are you on that same all day hunt until you limit or, or do you just say, I'm going to hunt from eight to 12? Like, is there a better time, um, you know, in your mind to be out there on the water?

Or for you, you know, on some, in some places like Washington, we're somewhat spoiled where they don't have a lot of regulations as far as whether you can hunt the evening, only hunt the morning, only hunt until a certain time. There are other States where you can only be in refuges from X amount of time to, you know, 1030 to 11 to something like that. And there's some States that even regulate that. So, you know, for us around here, if you're going to take the day and go enjoy it, we typically find a way to spend most of the day. Um, but

but it does depend on, you know, weather conditions, what, you know, what we're seeing, you know, how, how things are looking. Cause you know, if I had a choice, I actually enjoy hunting the afternoons more than anything else, almost the rat race of like, everybody's racing each other to the boat ramp. The craziness is, you know, gone. And so you're able to kind of sneak in on the end and, you know, have maybe not as successful of a shoot, but it's a little more relaxed. You don't have to get up at, you know,

1 a.m to get down to potholes in time by 3 to be on the water you set your decoys legally by 4 and then hold down your spot you know all day it's like man added an extra 12 hours to this just to to go duck hunting i'd rather just wait till the afternoon get there roll in and you know

be happy. So I'm, I'm definitely a, I call it like a fair weather, you know, side of, side of duck hunting on that one. But, you know, my, my most successful hunts that I can remember, they involved, you know, especially on public that, that grind sleeping in the truck at midnight, you know, getting on it and just, you know, going crazy. I'm just, I'm getting old enough now where I appreciate sleep more than I do duck meat. So yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So that was a good segue in. You'd mentioned, called yourself a fair weather duck hunter. You know, we talked about time of day. Do you have a preference? We saw, at least on potholes, like a little bit of wind was good. You know, still seemed to be, they didn't like to fly as much when it got still there in the potholes. Do you have a preference? Do you want it rainy, nasty, raining sideways? Do you want it, you know, clear and high pressure? Like what's the...

yeah kind of for me man the most successful times that yeah the most successful times that i've had you know out hunting are the ones that i remember is the best weren't the ones where i was you know soaking freaking wet by 8 a.m and it was just miserable and yeah sure it's you know everybody's got this like norman rockwell idea of you know quintessential duck hunting where it's just pissing cats and dogs and the lady's looking over at the guy like what the hell are we doing out here um you know for me clear and cold is has always been you know a a

better, a better way for me to hunt. I like hunting on, um, you know, some people don't like bluebird days, so to speak, but like when the sun's out, bird identification is a hell of a lot easier for myself. In my own opinion, I think the sun helps create some shadows that can also help hide me better, especially if I have the sun in the correct location, it can also like show my face and everything a lot better if it's not in the right spot. So it is, you know, a bit of a catch 22, but for myself personally, my favorite way to hunt is absolutely, you know,

pristine clear and cold. And I do like at least maybe like a five to seven mile an hour sustained wind, just so there's a little bit of ripple on the water and it gives, you know, the spread some direction. It just kind of helps set a little bit of an edge on the hunt.

Yeah. And you know, my location, I'm a, I'm 30 minutes away from the Pacific ocean harbors, you know, Grays Harbor, Willapa Harbor. And I think this is one of the biggest, like one of the reasons I absolutely never wanted to go hunting. I got asked all the way from high school on, you want to go, you know, combine goose duck hunt. I'm like,

No. And the reason why is they wouldn't go unless the wind was blowing 40 miles an hour and the rain was hitting the side of the face that made the good, good waterfall, you know, hunting weather around here. And I'm like, that sounds like zero fun to go up, you know, go set up your decoys, go set everything up in the dark, sit there and get soaked and flabbergasted.

freeze that you know so I I'd always looked at that but you know we went we went over to the east side and you know similar to your mentioning you know bluebird days with a little bit of wind and it was pretty enjoyable you stayed warm and I could get used to that a whole lot quicker than I could you know getting poured on out on the coast oh yeah

Well, I mean, you know, don't get me wrong. I've been on hunts that are that same way where it's just miserable and, you know, there's nothing flying. And, you know, everybody's like, oh, if we only had some weather, you know, and you're like, you can point your finger at one way or another, you know, what worked, what didn't. And, I mean, there's been a couple of them that I've been on, like in Kansas or some of the others where it's exactly the situation you're talking about. I was in California one time, and it's not a joke. It was when the Oroville Dam was going to flood.

And we were down there in the floodplain. It was raining. I think it rained two and a half inches in four hours. Like, it was just absolutely nuts. But same thing, 55 mile an hour winds. And I think we shot 145 snows and specks in our group. But it was the most miserable thing.

day I've ever been out hunting, but man, we got some shooting in. It was cool. So I just didn't like literally wringing out my underwear before I got in the truck. Like this is dumb. I might as well have gone swimming. Yeah. The duck hunting was great. The enjoyment factor was pretty low. It sounds like on one of those. Yep. Exactly.

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Now we're going to kind of jump into the calls. I'm going to have you on the spot. Give us kind of a five minute quick and dirty version on the history of duck calls, you know, from where they started kind of to where we're at today. And some people might be surprised at the history of duck calls.

Yeah, I mean, you know, in all honesty, a lot of most of the, like, duck calling, if you were looking up as far as when the first patent was filed, I believe it was in the late 1800s. But, you know, duck calling as we know it now, really, duck calls and duck calling, so to speak, really didn't take off until, you know, realistically right after the Second World War.

I mean, you know, 45, you had Chick Majors and a couple of the other guys out there. You know, P.S. Olt, he's been around for a long time out of Peking, Illinois. I think they were a 100-year-old duck call company. I mean, it's been a rich history as far as the last 100 to 125 years or so really is where, you know,

Duck calls and how they, you know, progressed have pretty much been at, you know, fortunately and where we're at now. Sure, we've gotten some advances as far as things like materials, you know, and stuff like that. But the technology itself, as far as, you know, whether it's a J frame or a real foot or a Louisiana style board, all of those terms and designs are still very much so in play today.

And so, you know, as far as what's the newest, latest and greatest thing in duck calls, you're, you know, you're looking at guys that are just tweaking and perfecting and, you know, changing the performance factor of designs and, you know, and aspects that have been around now for, you know, 100 plus years.

Gotcha. And we're going to, we'll touch into what goes into designing a call. And one thing I want to kind of preface this, and you can correct me if I'm wrong from a duck call standpoint, but what we've realized is whether it's an external elk call, whether it's a deer call, whether it's a duck call, when you're using what typically is a piece of mylar that's cut to a shape with a certain weight,

In order to get any of these sounds, it's basically vibration of a piece of Mylar, whether it's 10 mil, whether it's 14 mil, whether it's a short board, whatever it may be. A goose call uses a 14 mil short read. All we're doing is asking this piece of Mylar to vibrate over everything.

a certain radius, a specified radius, whether, you know, a predator board's gonna have a tighter, you know, I'm gonna throw a number out there, a two, two and a half inch radius, and a deer call may have a, you know, whatever it may be, it's longer. We're playing with the weights on the reeds, but when we go to design these type of calls,

We're looking at radius. We're looking at mylar shape thickness. We're looking at what the tone channel width and depth, because that gives us a volume of air that can pass under that mylar reed. You're looking at your bores. So kind of walk us through that. That's kind of a generality of all calls that use a piece of vibrating mylar. And it's crazy to think.

You know, you take what our easy estrus or even all the way down to our little young and calf call. We're taking a skinnier, thinner piece and changing its length. So you get a very high frequency buzz, you know, all the way up to 2500 hertz. So you're able to get those elk tones and then you're able to really take a duck or even more, I would say, you know, like a buck grunt.

you're able to vibrate that read very, very slow and you're really hearing the oscillation of that read is what's giving you know, it's not a high pitch. So you're able to do the extremes from a butt grunt all the way to an elk, you know, calf mew. While we're on duck calls, I'll kind of go through and explain to us, you know, how

you know there's a little more to duck calls we do look at it on the alcohol side but there's like you know volume in your barrel whether you're going to taper the barrel whether you know because that's going to affect how much the call loads up you're going to back bore the barrel you know affects your volume so i i've kind of spoiled a little bit yeah i'll say man you answered a lot right off the right off the shoot good for you but you've been paying attention no there's a i mean you you

The simplest way to put it is pretty much in a duck call sphere or even a goose call sphere. Everything affects everything, whether or not you have the answers to exactly how much you need to do to get what you're looking for. That's a, you know, that's a different subject and, you know, end user and how people blow things. I mean, that's, that's really where it's at, but you know, to, to try to put something to like spin it to like a,

bass guy would understand it. I typically attune, you know, anything to do with a duck call very similar to like, you know, a guitar, the looser that you make it sure the, you know, the sloppier the vibration, the more buzz, the more everything that you get out of it. And it's the same thing, you know, with a duck call and the radiuses that you were talking about. If you put too much slope on it, it doesn't sound like a duck. The reed doesn't vibrate fast enough and you've, you know, built up a

buck grunt or something else. And so you're, you're trying to find, you know, a way to, as you mentioned, take different weights of mylar, different lengths, different cuts, different widths, and apply those within, you know, dimensions that make sense for the, you know, the part that you're making. But yeah, man, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's infinite possibilities as far as whether or not you're using, you know, a quarter inch tone channel, a six millimeter tone channel, whether you're, you know, going all the way up to 1764. And like, you can,

do so much different stuff within that sphere that you might accidentally end up pushing a J-frame design into something of a cut-down design. It just sort of moves as we do in the marketplace, and you're going to start pushing boundaries one way or the other, and that's how we come up with different ideas to make calls operate.

Yeah. And, uh, so I'm just going to kind of throw some terminology out there. Um, you know, I know what they mean a little bit, not to the extent you do, but you know, when I was getting into, you know, five years ago and, and you know, it's like, Oh, you gotta have a duck call in your lineup. And it's like, uh,

Okay. Like I understand, as I mentioned earlier, I understand like how Mylar vibrates. I can look at duck call inserts, you know, aside from, you know, putting one of the popular like echo inserts in my first call was to you. I'm like, Alex, I got like, help me understand this. Like help me understand the process. Um,

Um, you know, and so we started to walk, walk through, you know, and so it was like, oh, well, open water versus timber, double versus single. Um, I think some of these, and correct me if I'm wrong, some of these names have been put on a call just because of

Maybe the way it leans a little bit like, oh, it's a louder call, like it's more of an open water call versus like, oh, it's a quieter call. It's going to, you know, it gets labeled a timber or, you know, kind of explain, you know, singles versus doubles, open versus timber. And then we'll kind of jump into some other questions based off of that.

Sure. Well, I mean, you know, like very much so in, in the duck call sphere, it's like anything else, right? Like if you just go to Lowe's and say screwdriver, like there's endless possibilities and duck calls definitely fall into, you know, that same way. And so you've got, you know, a little bit of situational kind of stuff that you want to do with duck call and try to match that with what that company's, you know, marketing as far as like, oh yes, it's an open water call. Well, if you were to compare my open water call to say echoes or somebody else's, you could probably find some dissimilarities and some also, you know, similarities between the two, but the

The common nomenclature on something like if you were to say an open water call typically means that it's got a much more open backbore in it so you can push more air through it and create more volume. Whereas something in a timber style is usually choked down a little bit so it's not as loud. And that's really where it comes into the situations that you're hunting and what tool do you need

to do the job where you're at. Because if you're on the Columbia River and you're trying to use, for instance, the Hive in my lineup is my softest running double read. Well, if you're in a wide open area and you're trying to produce volume, that's not the call that you want to use as far as...

doing what you want. So, you know, making sure that you have the right call for the right job, you know, is pretty important. And, you know, I can tell you as a manufacturer and doing this, a lot of calls do gravitate towards the middle because we want to try to find something that is a user friendly and be very, you know, versatile. I know,

we talked about it, but like these things aren't necessarily just cheap. You're not going to go out and spend, you know, only $5 and get what you want. Most waterfowl calls are upwards of 120 to a, you know, $140 at a whack. And so you want to try to find a way to get the most bang for your buck, which typically means you're finding something that operates right down the center. So you avoid things like wide open water calls or like way too timbery calls, unless if you know you need that tool for that job.

Gotcha. So as a new caller going in, what would be your recommendation? I know everybody's going to, you know, I tell people the same thing on the out-call side. Like, well, just because you're a new caller doesn't mean you don't blow. Like, you know, you've been doing this for 30 years. You might blow with a ton of air and a ton of effort versus so new callers aren't always the right thing. But what would you recommend a new caller? Like if they're looking at a call, are they looking at a double read or

open water or what would you recommend as far as like new caller getting into duck calling so they can gain confidence and you know make duck sounds to get going you know in in most cases you know picking up something that is you know advertised from that manufacturer as they're all around you

you know, duck call is typically, typically a better, a better solution for, you know, a beginning duck hunter. Um, you know, I, I can only speak to, you know, kind of what's in my lineup and, you know, how, how we do things around here. Whereas like, you know, materials, price, things like that shouldn't necessarily be a big factor, you know, in your decision. I mean, everybody's got, you know, a budget as far as that goes. And, uh,

I produce polycarb calls that are $20 all the way up to fancy wood and acrylic ones that are upwards of $200 or more. And so whatever you're comfortable within your budget getting is really the answer of what call should you get. But in most cases, you're going to find a good running single or double read, whichever one, personal preference. And we'll get into that a little bit on why you choose one or the other. But

which one's going to fit you, what materials that you like, because those materials are going to, you know, cost you less, more, you know, whichever way you want to go about it. Yeah. And, and,

New color versus experience, you know, you had five years ago, we had came out with a single and a double read, you know, through, through you guys training me and me practicing and figuring out, you know, like the single reads typically wider and, you know, less of a dog year versus your double reads are typically a little skinnier and they've got more of a taper on the end. You know, we're dealing with just trying to get weight off the end to get them to tune in to a duck. Is, is it just my own opinion that like experienced colors, you know,

and they don't have to lean into it, but like your single reads are typically geared towards your more experienced callers or people that have more time with it. There's a little more effort, a little more air required. Is that always hold true that your double reads will be a little bit more user-friendly and your single reads may be more experienced? Or is that just how the ultimate design kind of comes out?

A lot of it does come down to ultimate design, but there is something to be said. And when you're talking about whether it's easy to use or not, I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding. It's not like if I don't know how to present air, if I don't know how to control my diaphragm, if I have crappy hands, that I'm going to pick up a double read and all of a sudden I'm just going to sound like a duck because it's a double read. You still very much so have to focus on your fundamentals, making sure you're making proper notes, proper mouth mechanics, hand mechanics. All of that still is an effect, whether it's a single read or double read.

The forgiveness factor in how a new caller may not be able to pressurize and stabilize their air the same way that an experienced caller would. So out of a single read, that one read is going to flex, bend, and make those different notes, whereas a double read, it kind of hides it a little bit. And so the forgiveness factor in a double read is typically what draws a new hunter to the double read side instead of the single read side.

Gotcha. You guys are helping us work on a new single reed that I've been practicing on. I've got it sitting here on my desk. It's what I would call... You're sounding good, bud. You're sounding good. It would be like a wide open call. In my opinion, this is my own terminology. Correct. I can hammer on that thing. It sounds like a duck. It stays there. And I went and grabbed one of the double reeds that you...

one of the original double reeds and I went to blow on it kind of with the same idea, you know, the same pressure and everything. And it just fell on its face. I'm like, all right, you had to retrain yourself. Like this double reed takes about half the air to sound, you know? And yeah, it was just one of those things where it's like, wow, you're so used to that one that it, it takes you a couple, you know, quacks to kind of figure out where you need to be and how much air and get it to sound like a duck again. So on tune, that's just, you know, Hey man, that's practice.

Yep. Yep. You had mentioned a little bit on tuning. We were talking, you know, dog ears. We were talking shortening reeds. You know, I had a customer call the other day like, hey, we bought two of your calls. One of them sounds awesome. One of them is missing a little bit. I just asked him to take pictures of the reeds and you can tell that one reed was quite a bit shorter. So we had him pull the cork out, readjust it, give himself a little bit longer reed so that he could push on the call a little bit more. And we got it turned right around. But

Can you walk us through kind of Duck Tuning 101, just the quick and dirty, what matters, what doesn't? I know it probably, you know, it's a little bit different on each tone board, each bore, but kind of the overall what matters and what changes from read to read.

The basic concept behind tuning a duck call is that you're trying to get it to fit with how your style of calling is. And so the simple, I guess, way of looking at it is typically the longer the read, the more air it's going to take and the deeper the tone it's going to have. So as you put in a fresh read, you're going to start clipping it back and you need to find that happy meeting between the response and the feel that you want and the

tone that you want. And so it is a very tedious process and it's something that most people get frustrated with because they expect to just, you know, throw a read in and it sounds like a duck rat away. And it's like, no, there's very much so, you know, a finite tuning level. And even in my own lineup and when we're dealing with, you know, customers and trying to make sure that calls fit them and, you know, things along those lines, it is very much so a fit discussion.

because how much air I can produce versus how much air you can produce versus Trevor or Joe Schmo customer, it's all different. And so you have to find a way to make that thing fit you. And typically, like I said, the longer the read,

the deeper the tone, but the more air it's going to take. And so if you feel that you're blowing through the call or like it doesn't have enough backbone, you technically need a longer read because from a feel standpoint, the read is too short. Now, from a tone standpoint, if you're trying to change something, you know, and that's where some of the dog ear stuff comes in and

the thinner you make that read on the end, the more it'll respond in low pressure, but it still has enough backbone with it to hit it higher. So it is very much so a guess and check kind of mentality. And the best part about a duck call is my large cheap. So by all means, you know, get a read pack from you, from me, from anybody, and just start going nuts because there is no perfect answer. But I think I was telling you the same thing when you're tuning a duck call, you know, less is more. And so with how much you clip and change,

you're really after like the width of a sheet of paper as far as adjustments go and like clip, put it back together, give it a test, run it a little bit. I don't like how that feels. Pull it apart, clip, do it again. And just over and over and over until you get it to exactly where you like it.

Yeah. And in my limited experience, one of the things I noticed more with duck calls versus any of my other calls, whether it's elk or predator is the balance of how much air the call could take or needs or can't take versus still sound like a duck. And there seems to be like this crossover point where, all right, now the call, I can put as much air to it as I want, but I no longer sound like a duck. So it's like, all right, maybe that's a wit thing, or maybe that's a length thing, or maybe that's take dog ears out because you need the right weight and

And so I found that, you know, duck calls more than any other call is like that balance of air pressure versus, you know, maintaining your correct tone that you want out of the call.

Yep. Well, I mean, there's a variance factor in duck calls, you know, as well that's not necessarily there with, you know, elk, deer, some of the other ones. You know, ducks have a very wide spectrum as far as the sounds, tones, volumes, things that they're able to produce in a natural environment. And I know there's some variance in elk as well, but in the call itself, you have a lot more freedom on a duck call to change the reads and do things than you do on, let's say, an elk call because, I mean, the width of an elk read affects function almost.

way more than it does in a duck call. And so, you know, there's there, you got more room to play, you know, in a duck call than you do with, you know, elk or anything else. So by all means, if you got a call that's not performing right or do anything, swap out the reads and try some different tuning and see if you can make it fit how you, how you think it should. Okay. Yeah. That's great advice. Um, I'm going to dive into materials a little bit. Um,

you know, we mentioned earlier the history of them. I think one of the things that we've found as time went on, we're using better materials, whether that's, you know, 100% acrylic, you know, whether we're using, you know, high-end composites like, you know, the micartas, you know, some of the engineered materials. What,

Do you feel that a duck can tell the difference between like a polycarbonate or an acrylic call? Or is it the fact that that call can be handed down for three generations and still probably be fine where, you know, the polycarbonate could be squished or I give me, give me your rundown on materials and if they matter, um,

For myself, my all-time favorite kind of call to use is actually a wood call. I do believe that from a natural tone and sound standpoint, woods are some of the better calls, but they do have a maintenance factor, and it's very difficult for a lot of people to maintain a wood call for years.

years and years and years. So from a manufacturing standpoint, an industry standard is acrylic and there's a vanity side of that that goes with it as well. Cause you can get acrylic in every color of the rainbow. It can be laser engraved. Like you can make these things look really cool, you know, out of the, out of the acrylic factor, the acrylic is actually, you know, incredibly dense as well. And so it does a good job of not, um,

not altering the sound that comes out of it. If you're using an acrylic call, you're typically very crisp, very clean. Um, and whatever you're putting into the call is transferred out in the sound that's there. Whereas like wood Delrin, some of these softer compounds, they absorb, you know, a little bit of that sound and vibration. And so it alters, you know, it alters your tone. Um, polycarbonate things like that. It's, you know, it's regarded as, as a cheap product that actually does make a very solid product as far as function and things. But

you know it's it's cheap plastic it's you know mass produced and injection molded and i you know talking down on it but i have my own molds and everything else myself but it's you know it's just that it either you know fits or you don't and you know for myself if i don't have a wood call i'm typically leaning to acrylic and if acrylic is not an option then delrin is my next and then you know polycarb is typically on the end of the spectrum for for myself personally but i mean

I know a lot of guys that still kill a lot of ducks with a DR-85, man, and, like, they, you know, it works just fine.

Gotcha. And one thing I like about materials, acrylic or, you know, some of the engineered materials is I don't get a call from Alex on like a Tuesday. Like we have a problem. That batch of Osage that we got is no good. It's, you know, you know, so it's, that's what I love about them. It's, it's pretty consistent, you know, as it's, it's cast rod, you know, and so that's one thing I do like about material, you know,

an engineered material, but like you said, I love, you know, a lot of our turkey calls, we can't get around wood. But yeah, it is, it is nice to have something consistent, especially, you know, when you see all the processes that these calls got to go through, you know, the barrel goes through the lathe and it goes through polish. And then, you know, the, the insert of the keg goes through the mill. It's like, if something pops on the last stage, like it's just frustrating. It's like you went through the entire process of building a call and then we lost it at, you know, and, and the milling and stuff,

it has a higher likelihood of doing that. And so I don't know, from my, from a manufacturer standpoint, like sometimes I feel like it's hitting the easy button. Like, yeah, it's going to be a little more expensive, but it's going to be consistent. And I know we're not going to have issues with it. So let's go ahead and pick acrylic.

Oh, and Ben, I'd have to agree with you on that one. I mean, it's a man-made material. You don't have these oddities that come out of it. And like you mentioned, you're going to get wood where sometimes it is just trash. There's a knot in it. There's something that was not there. But there's also that little bit of nostalgia or nuance factor in every single wood call that comes off. They're all different. Yes, they're all the same, but like

Every one of them is different. We're like black acrylic. That's the same from start to finish, man. There's nothing you're not going to find this like, oh, this is a really cool piece in the middle of it. So, you know, there's some of that in the surprise factor that like you just don't get from anything else. But you're 100 percent correct on the manufacturing side of life. And, you know, the the the consistent results in every single call over and over and over and repeatability factor. I mean, you know, acrylic is pretty much everything.

pretty much where it's at. And that's why it is indeed the industry standard, especially in, you know, in waterfowl calls. Gotcha. Okay. This is a, I could have Googled this, but I'm going to put myself out there and add, what is the difference between a cut down versus a meat call and explain that to me? Cause you hear it said all the time, but I want to hear your, I want to hear your, your explanation.

Well, I mean, you know, for me, I don't know if the two things that you're talking about there are actually on the same deal. A cut down is a style of call that originated from an old old, an old PS old. And then meet calls, so to speak, I guess. I think that's actually like a term as far as like a contest goes. Like you have like a main street calling contest. You have a meet calling contest or a live calling contest. And so.

the two aren't necessarily one in the same or can be compared like I think that one's a style of a call and ones are different calling contests as far as that goes. Gotcha. Or at least that's how I'm reading that question. So yeah, it was more of I've heard these calls referred to cut down calls or meet calls. So maybe it wasn't it was phrased the wrong way, but just what the definition because it's like unless I go Google it, like I don't know what that means.

Well, I mean, you know, a cut down is indeed just like if you had to put a very simple, simple way of thinking about it, it's like an ultra aggressive style of a J frame. It's got a wide open bore, typically a 14 mil read, and it's designed to, you know, really produce harsh, barky sounds down in the Arkansas timber.

Whereas, you know, something that's more like my J frame style calls, they're a little bit softer, neater. They run, you know, at kind of a higher frequency level, like you were talking about with some of the, some of the elk stuff. So the, the cut down is kind of a style of a call. It's not necessarily a type of calling, I guess is the way to put it. Well, thanks for running us through those calls in closing. If you had one tip to help, you know, duck hunters out there be successful this year, what would it be?

Oh man, just, uh, you know, try to stay positive because it is definitely one of those things where you can get spoiled really quick by showing up on a hunt and, you know, shoot your seven and be like, this is the greatest thing in the world. But you know, you're going to, you're going to have days where you're going to sit out there and wonder why the, why the hell you did this. But, um,

You know, it's a long game. The season's, you know, really long for Waterfowl compared to a lot of big game stuff. And so there's tons of opportunity. And, you know, get out, try to enjoy it. It's a lot of fun and it should stay that way. So, you know, like I said, try to stay positive and have fun doing it. Yeah, that's great advice. And I really appreciate having you on today, Alex. Thanks for all your time. Thanks for everything. And good luck out there this year.

Absolutely, man. Well, hopefully, hey, we got a couple months. You're done hunting the big game stuff, right? The stuff with furs? Come on, man. Let's go chase some feathers. Let's go chase some. All right. We might have to do that. All right. Sounds like a plan, bud.

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