Ep. 15: Mistakes We Made When Learning To Elk Hunt with Tony Gilbertson
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Elk calling world champions. Yeah, they can call, but can they hunt? Today's guest is a 2021 RMEF world champion and 2022 runner up, but that isn't why I have him on the show today. He's a great, great elk hunter. He's very accomplished and skilled. Tony Gilbertson out of Vernonia, Oregon. Welcome to the show, Tony. Hey, thanks, Jason. I appreciate this opportunity. Yeah. How's everything going down there in Oregon so far? It's not too hot. I know you're on the coast, but how's everything down there?

It's doing good. It's been hot, but in Vernonia, we're in the foothills of the coast range, so it stays a little bit cooler and it cools down more at night. We just open up the windows at night and we're good to go. It's always good. I'm ready for fall. Yeah, aren't we all? It's closing in quick. Do you have any big hunts lined up for this fall?

So with Oregon changing a lot of the units that we hunted over in eastern Oregon to control only, you know, I can hunt Roosevelt's. I can be in the woods from my house in about, you know, 10 or 15 minutes. And I can hunt every day after work if I want to and on the weekends and then usually take a week off. So I'm just going to hunt the general season.

OTC tag for a saddle mountain unit and scapoose unit. And then, uh, I was fortunate enough to get a, uh, a tag in Idaho. So I'm looking forward to that. Nice. Nice. You can take a week off and go over to Idaho then. Yeah. I'll hunt. I'll hunt, uh, the whole, the whole season here in Oregon. And then probably the last five or six days I'll take off and head over to Idaho.

Nice, nice. Congrats on that tag. Idaho seems to be getting tougher and tougher every year where it used to be just four or five years ago you could go to the gas station during archery season and there were all kinds of B tags left. Now if you don't get a low enough number or lucky enough on December 1st, you're not getting any sort of tag there. You're looking at Idaho's.

I was disappointed. My son and I both got online there and, and I mean, it was like 862 and he was six, 6,000 and some odd. So I was fortunate enough to get the tag and he wasn't. And honestly, I would have rather seen him get the tag than myself, but it just didn't work out that way. So maybe next year. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to jump into some listener questions. And if you have a question you want us to answer or one of our guests to answer, send it to us at CTD at CTD.

phelpsgamecalls.com. We'll do our best to get your questions answered. Send us a message, whatever it needs to be. But I kind of cherry picked this one for you, Tony. How good of a caller do you need to be to call an elk in your opinion? In my opinion, a lot of guys stress out about that. I've coached a number of people that honestly, they're a bit shy or

you know, scared to show me what they can do. And I try to encourage them because in my opinion, you don't have to be a world professional caller to call elk.

I've heard some elk in the woods that you would swear sounded like a human or they sounded horrible. And it turns out that they're bulls. I've got a good friend of mine that isn't the most accomplished caller in the world, but he calls in bulls all the time. So I don't think it's as necessary to be

As good a caller as it is to be maybe more versatile in terms of the different sounds you can make. Yeah, I'm right there with you. You know, you don't have to be as good as you, Dirt, Jermaine, you know, myself. And I think, you know, we may be doing a disservice to them, you know, because we make all this hunting content and we share educational videos and they get to hear, you know, some of the sounds that you guys can make and the quality of sounds that you guys can make. And.

And I think, you know, as you said, they get a little timid, they get a little bit nervous that they can't make sounds like that or as accurate of sounds like that. And then they become very timid in the elk woods. And to kind of piggyback on your answer, I think it's much more important

to get the rest of the strategy right as far as you know locating out getting the wind right getting close and then at the end you ultimately need to have the confidence to make a call versus you know I'm just going to get close and I'm going to kind of hang out and just see what happens you know that's that's never a good approach you know it may work spot and stock may work you know we know a lot of successful guys that and gals that

don't necessarily pick up a call, they do it a different way. But if you're going out there with the intent to, you know, run a call and call a bull into your lap,

um i think you need to have some confidence and that's why you know some of the things like you know some of the calls that we've been designing lately such as the the easy sucker and the easy bugler it's not because me or you or dirk or you know experienced callers that have dedicated you know most of their lives into you know or a large you know a large time frame within their life and not the majority of their life but you know we've dedicated a lot of time to becoming very proficient and i honestly believe that

you know, making these calls easier for people to use is going to give them that confidence and

we got a lot of feedback last year that just the easy bugler like gave them the confidence to actually go into the same areas in the same situations that they've been in the past and and to actually blow on the call and to get responses and to get action and to play the game like in my opinion was meant to be played so that's some of the reasons you know why we're running that and uh i honestly truly believe that somebody that can at least sound somewhat decent is better to have those people running around in the woods that people that are

blown on a call that sound not good at all, or, you know, don't even resemble an elk. And so in my opinion, it's, it's not doing much more harm than it is, you know, elk sound like elk. And so, um, by allowing them to, to, to sound better, it's actually helping all of us. Yeah, no, I agree with that, Jason. I was talking to a guy, I was at a birthday party over the weekend and, and do for, and I was talking to a guy there that, uh,

He struggles with having a diaphragm in his mouth just because it was gag reflex. And I was talking to him about the Easy Bugler and I said, you know, there's options out there for you now. You don't have to know how to use a diaphragm. You know, these cow calls that Phelps and others are developing right now are...

much easier to use than what they used to be. And if you can't use a diaphragm, the Easy Bugler is a fantastic option and it sounds awesome. So he was going to look into that because of that very reason. And he didn't have confidence, I don't think, in himself

Just in talking to him. But it's just a matter of picking up the calls and just, you know, practicing. And you don't, like I said, you don't have to be a world champion elk caller, but you do need to dedicate some time to at least sound somewhat realistic and get to the point where you can

You know, you don't sound the same every time. You can throw some versatility in there and make the bulls sound like or hear you in a way that suggests you're another elk.

Yep. And, you know, there've been some situations where I don't ever want to be called in by somebody else or somebody else to feel like, you know, if they recognize us or see us. So, um, there's been some situations in the last few years where I'm about ready to balance out of our calling setup. You know, we've got set up, we're doing everything we think. And we're like, you know, you're, you're, we're trying to listen and figure out like, is that a real elk? Is that a person? Um,

And, and multiple times over the last five years, I would say, you know, four or five different approaches that I can remember fairly, fairly well.

We ended up calling an elk that I would have at some point during that call in guess that they were a person, you know, and so I don't think, you know, quality of calls. It's more of, you know, the ability, the confidence to use them, um, and then making the sounds at the right time, um, are, are more important. So I think we're, we're both on the same page, you know, being a great caller isn't a requirement. Um, it does help us a little bit. Uh,

One of the strategies we like to use is mimicry, uh, and, and being a good caller gives us the ability to like, I think I know how to make that sound, you know, cause, cause real elk make all kinds of different sounds. And so if I'm trying to copycat that bull, it is nice to be able to, Oh, I know how to manipulate the call and get that sound. But, um, aside from that, you know, you, you learn a few, you know, cow muse, you know, estrus wines, challenge beagles, location beagles, um,

And get them down that that's all you're gonna need to head into the oak woods and find success in my opinion Yeah, I couldn't agree more Jason. I think you're spot-on the second question from the listeners What is your approach when trying to call in a herd bull? It's fine and I'm gonna twist this a little bit or put some direction to that as far as what's your calling strategy like if you could You know take bottle up your strategy put it in a little cookie cutter approach Give us give us that answer. Yeah, I

Well, I think when you mentioned mimicry earlier, Jason, you know, my approach when it comes to herd bulls, I mean, number one, you've got the problem with Coleman satellite bulls or spikes or something like that, you know, to where...

Those bulls come in and then you got to kind of, at least in my opinion, kind of tone it down a bit or shut up until they kind of move off so you don't spook them and they bump the herd and off they go. But I think for me...

I think the most important thing is to get in close and just get aggressive with them. You know, that herd bull is a herd bull for a reason. And if you're really shy and timid with that bull and you keep a distance from him, he's not going to pay you any attention at all. So until you get up close enough to where that bull thinks you're a threat and you can actually...

you know, make some sounds that gives him the impression that, you know, you're moving in on his herd and there's a chance you're going to take his cows from him, you're not going to have much success. So in my opinion, you know, locating that herd, getting in close, trying to mimic what he's saying, you know, sometimes I'll get in there close and do some raking. And a lot of times that'll be enough to just, you know, push him over the edge and have him come in. But

Getting in there, throwing out a challenge bugle, maybe a bulls calling cows bugle, something that gives him the impression that you're a threat is probably your best option. Yeah, I'm on the same page with you there as well, Tony. Yeah, I always use the analogy. I think I've already used it on the podcast, but it's always worth kind of, you know, painting the picture again. You know, I always...

try to try to picture like if you were sitting at the back of a restaurant with your wife having a nice dinner, whatever it may be, and somebody walks in the front door and yells at you like, hey, mister, I'm going to whip your butt. I'm coming to take your wife, you know, because that's basically what we're doing out in the Oakwoods. You would be you'd have the ability to take your wife and maybe go out the back door, you know, defend, you know, whatever you need to do, you know, try to avoid the situation. Right.

but if that same person or elk doesn't say anything to you until you you know gets right to the edge of your table they've now taken away that like fight or flight opportunity you've now got like fight to deal with right that's all all you have left and so yeah very aggressive get very very close um one thing i've always noticed uh

you know, the majority of her bull, some of them come in all sorts of pissed off after you get close, get tight, you know, do some challenge vehicles, whatever it may be. You know, there are some that are just like, Oh, that was easy. It shouldn't have been that easy. But there are ones that are, you know, they won't be able, you know, right after your beagle, they'll maybe be able 10 seconds later. And it just kind of frustrates me because it's like, well, Hey, why, you know, answer me. I just made a bugle. You obviously could hear me, but you're kind of just ignoring me. You're, you're doing your own thing. And on those sorts of bulls,

I always believe that I can go in and turn the temperature up on that bull. He's kind of lazy. He's kind of lackadaisical in his bugling. He doesn't really seem to care that I'm in the area. And I typically, my mind kind of starts to put that bull in the category of probably an older bull. You know, he's not responding to everything. He's not, he doesn't have a care in the world. He doesn't care if I walk into his herd because he's going to whip my butt.

when I get there, you know, so he's a little, a little more laxed in his responses. And those are those elk that, you know, those bulls, I want to get in close and I want to slowly turn the temperature up, like just annoy him. I want to pester him. And I want to, that's kind of what's going through my head that if we play this game of pestering him enough that we can eventually turn the temperature up and, you know, hopefully call him away from his herd. It's just very, very tough. We're reversing nature here.

you know, a bull doesn't want to leave his cows, his harem, whether it's two or three cows or whether it's 10 or 15, he's got his for sure thing. And we're trying to reverse nature by, you know, he beagles for, you know, and his beagles are allowed for a reason. Like that's to announce to the cows, like, Hey, I'm over here. Come join us versus us trying to reverse that and say, Hey, we're one lonely cow over here. Leave your other 15 cows or we're, we're one bull over here. Leave your 15 cows to come check us out. Like that's, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

So yeah, get close, get aggressive, and try to turn the heat up on that bull is kind of what's going through my head when I know it's a herd bull. Yeah, no, I agree. Those bulls that have a lot of confidence, like you said, just like in a human nature, you get some guy that...

that's confident in his abilities and, you know, he's going to kick your butt, like you said. You know, what's the reason? Why should he go and fight you? Why not make you come to him and actually have him get a visual of you? Or at least, I mean, that's gone through his mind, right? He's going to stay here with his cows until he sees you and can acknowledge that you're a threat. Yeah.

But, you know, I've taken one thing that has worked for me in the past, too, is, you know, you get those bulls that just, you know, they're kind of antagonistic and they just, you know, they'll bugle back at you, but they kind of stay off in the distance just around their cows. And I've taken off and just ran at them and just, you know, screaming my head off at them thinking that, okay, here he comes, you know.

And sometimes just the sound of you running through the brush at that bull. Now, you know, on the coast here, it's probably more obvious that you're, you know, you're running through all that stuff trying to get to them. And they can't see you coming. So maybe it's a little easier that way than it is in some of the open country. But, you know, that's a technique that I've used before, too, that's been effective.

Yeah, when you close that distance faster than they expect, it kind of puts them on tilt and can work really well there. So if any of you, once again, have any of your own questions you want us to try to answer or tackle or give our own spin, make sure to email us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com and we'll do our best to give you an answer. ♪

Now we're going to kind of jump in to the discussion here for today. And I promise I didn't pick you, Tony, to go over this, but you know, these topics, but what we're going to talk about today is a lot of the mistakes that we've made over time.

We've mentioned it before. We kind of came from the times where there wasn't multiple elk hunting courses or elk hunting information on the internet. There weren't even forums and stuff. I got on the internet to check my emails back when I started to learn to elk hunt and

You know, so we learned a lot on our own and a lot of that came from trial and error. So today I'm just going to kind of go through, you know, some of the major mistakes we made early on or some of the same mistakes that we made over and over. And we were talking a little bit before the podcast, some of the mistakes that we're still making that, you know, for one reason or another, we think one way or something happened one way in the past and, you

we make a mistake and it doesn't turn out in our favor. So we're going to kind of go through some of that, walk through mistakes we've made and kind of see how you've learned from that. And the other thing I want to preface this whole conversation a little bit, Tony,

It is elk hunting. We're doing our best to try to put our experience together, but I am humbled every year that what has happened in the past, what has happened multiple times in the past, the next 20 setups or cullens, it may fail. And so even when, I don't want to call these low odds, or everything we do has low odds, but there's always a risk that these are wild animals.

It's not always going to work like it did last time or the time before or shoot even 10 times ago. You know, you got to try to read the situation, make your best judgment call and go with it. And so we're going to give some information here, but I want to, you know, preface it with it's not going to work, you know, fail proof every time. We're always going to screw up. Yeah. Elk are unpredictable. If they were predictable, this would be easy. Yeah.

Yeah, if they they couldn't smell if they were blind and if they did the same thing every day we'd be alright Yeah, right. I'd be a lot more successful Yeah, yeah So yeah, we're gonna talk about some of the knowledge we've gained through the mistakes we've made over the years and I would like as I mentioned some of the repeat mistakes I personally have made over the years. So we're gonna start off with scouting I used to do a whole lot more scouting and then I do now but some of the mistakes are

You know, we we made scouting. Go ahead and give some of your scouting mistakes and I'll kind of follow that up with some of the stuff that, you know, I did really, really wrong. And some of the stuff I do now that I think is, you know, makes a lot more sense now that I think about it.

Yeah, I think, well, I mean, I don't know if this is a mistake or it's just a matter of not having enough time. But, you know, you mentioned not doing as much or used to do a lot more scouting than what you used to now. I think just being out in the woods more frequently on a regular basis, you know, that can help. But, you know, I do use scouting.

Online maps and I will I'll get online and I'll look at areas where I think will hold elk. You know, it's the cover, the feed, the water, you know, bedding areas, likely likely bedding areas. And, you know, I'll get out there before the season and see.

You know, that's one of the problems is you go out and you scout before the season. Well, these bulls don't have cows yet. So who's to say they're going to be in that area when you get there? And then, you know, there's all this sign when you get out there and you do your preseason scouting. And I have fallen trap to just because I know that the elk are always there. I get there and they've moved on and I spend, you know, kind of what we were talking about earlier. You spend too much time

in an area just because the elk were there, you know, a month before the season, or, you know, I've been in units before that have been very productive and, you know, maybe you think you don't have to do as much scouting and you get there and you don't see sign, but you keep hunting it because it's what you're familiar with instead of, you know, branching out and moving elsewhere. Um, you know, that's, that's a huge mistake I've made in the past. Yeah. Um,

So I'm the same way. Scouting was almost a detriment to my elk hunting when I was younger. And I'll kind of explain. We didn't hunt the mountains. I grew up hunting coastal Washington, clear-cut country. Weyerhaeuser cuts every 45 years. And so it's a lot different than the majority of people get to hunt. But what we would do in 2008, 2009, I decided, you know, I'm going to go up in the mountains. I'm going to go up in the Cascades. I'm going to go do some mountain hunting off of my back.

And so we had taken three or four different scouting trips into a wilderness area. We're seeing elk every time, lots of elk. And so what we did in between these scouting trips and between seasons, I would go home and like plan my entire hunt from the computer based on what we were seeing out there.

And when I got my feet on the ground, for some reason in my mind, that hunt was going to work out at some point versus if I hadn't have went and scouted and just went back into that area, I would be more fluid and I would have to go find where those elk were. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't go to where I thought the elk were going to be. And so that was one of the big, um,

you know issues with scouting and how it would kind of backfire on me is i had a plan in my head on where i was going to kill the elk and how our morning hunts would go and how our night hunts would go and it just didn't pencil out that way um the other bad habit i had uh you know scouting which is the same thing on these hunts we would go see herds of 100 elk you know in a high alpine basin uh you know the bulls would be off in a different area or we'd have bull uh you know all over our camera

is i would go look for elk on my scouting trips and as you just mentioned um they that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be there uh in in the fall when seasons open up that doesn't mean that the bulls are going to leave and go find cows and so one thing i would do is go look for elk which now i tell people don't go look for go look for elk signs and and my favorite

sign to go find out there is one to two year old rubs, you know, whether they're their needles are all dropped or, you know, if they've got red needles on them. I love to see that sign and I love to see multiple years of those rubs because what that lets me just, you know, figure out without even seeing an elk is that they're running here year after year.

and it's multiple years stacked on. So there are some strange areas I've got into where it's like, the elk have swung in there for a year, they've swung in there for a week, but multiple years worth of rubs, it's like, all right, this is obviously an area they like to go, they like to be during the rut. And then within those areas, I'm starting to look, where are the beat in trails around those rubs? Where are the wallows and benches around those rubs? Where are they gonna be able to bed in close proximity to those rubs?

Because a lot of times the rubs are in fairly close proximity to their bedding areas. It's kind of a little...

different than how i used to scout but i want to find rubs first and then find some of these other features food cover the trails the way they're getting in and out of their you know wallows where they're going to get their water and kind of planning that hunt around there and then not scouting i'm going to go show up uh you know during season and and go locate those elk and figure them out versus you know putting all my eggs in the basket from from scouting

Yeah, I've, I've done the same thing, Jason. I, you know, we've hunted areas around, around home here for years and we know that the elk are always there, but so do a lot of other people. And, you know, when they get, even before the season, you get enough guys out there scouting around, getting more humans sent in the air, even some guys going out like preseason, trying to

you know, cow collar bugle. And I mean, how many times if you're used to hunting on the coast over clear cuts, how many times have you seen guys pull up in a pickup truck and bugle off a landing, you know, over a clear cut down into some timber or something? You start to educate those bulls and they get, you know, they're not dumb animals. So I, you know, I've made a mistake of spending too much time where there's too much pressure instead of moving on just because I know the elk are there

But they're so hard by that time to call in. They just they head for the deep, dark, you know, reprod patches and stuff that's so thick that you can't get them out of there and they don't come out until after dark. So, you know, I've got to get to the point where, you know, you recognize that sooner and then move on to a different area, hoping that you can get into some different elk that are maybe not as haven't been quite as pressured.

Yep. And, and I fall, I fell into that same trap where, you know, we would plan our hunt. Um, you know, we would pack in food, drop it off and we would be locked into an area. And now I'm to the point where, you know, people might call me crazy and maybe if the bull was big enough or something that really kind of, you know,

struck my fancy and I really wanted to try to harvest a bull I might stay but if I get to an area and you know the elk are there and they don't really want to play the game we've all ran into those herds where it's just there there's elk and I can see them and I can hear them but they just don't want to play the game I even pull the plug on those those situations fairly quick uh you know similar to you I grew up around home where the elk are in the same spots year after year and

It's a little different when you go out of state or go south or go east from where we're at. But I'm in that same boat. I want to go find an elk that's reared up, rutting, willing to beagle at anything. And that's that situation I'm looking for personally is to go find elk that are willing to play the game and play the game on my terms. So, yeah, that was kind of our second point that kind of rolled right out of scouting was

You know when you show up you don't find elk or you don't find elk that want to play the game and then not moving in and kind of stay in there so I always recommend having multiple plans or if you did your scouting right you should have you know a

10 different plans, like in any situation, you know, if we showed up, like you said, on a landing or a road or somebody got up before you and beat you to an area, I didn't have one little bit of anxiety. I didn't fret one bit. I just pulled up to, you know, and I went to spot B.

You know, God willing, hopefully there's enough light that I can get there. I'm a little nervous, but you know, some people that could screw up their whole day. You know, I know hunters around here that they would just probably go home and that's not the right, there's elk out there, you know, that are ready to be hunted. And so always have, you know, multiple backup plans.

You know, on X maps, you know, all the mapping software that's out there, like it's very easy to have, you know, a backup spot, a backup road, a backup canyon to go run into if somebody else is in your spot or for some reason your plans don't pan out like like you thought they would in your head. Yeah. And you don't have to go very far on the coast range over here.

to get into an area where there may be other elk that didn't hear you. You know, because it is so dense and the sound doesn't travel over here. You could have elk drainage over, which isn't that far over here, and they wouldn't have even heard you. So I think you're right. Moving to a different area, if you've got a bunch of guys in an area or you've got elk that just simply just stand there and bugle back at you, but never, ever commit to coming in and...

wanting to fight, then you have to make that decision early on to move on. And that's a mistake that I've made and it's a mistake that I continue to make, especially if there's a bull in there that kind of entices me to stick around it longer and try harder. - Yep.

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Next mistake and this comes from me being very lazy a little bit of being a rifle hunter that if I did You know early on scare something that I was just gonna shoot the elk anyways Trying to cheat the wind and I'm gonna put you on the spot here. I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer in your opinion

How far do you have to be away from an elk for them not to smell you? And I know there's lots of different situations, but in your opinion, like if you're going to make a circle around the elk, you know, the winds, the winds at your back, how far, how big of a circle are you making Tony? Yeah.

You know, I don't know what the right answer is, Jason, but I mean, I make as big a circle as I can and still be able to make contact with them, you know, so I can still hear them. You know, the wind, especially over here, doesn't seem to, you know, blow in one direction very long. It just swirls and swirls. So I want to try to get...

to the point where I'm in a good position in terms of wind, but still be able to stay within a distance so that I can hear them because they could move off

If I get out too far and I wouldn't be able to know, you know, I wouldn't know that they've they've moved on by that time. And like I said, it's so thick and dense over here. They don't move very far before you can't hear them. So, I mean, it's, you know, maybe even a couple hundred yards if I can still hear them, you know, in a situation if you're along a creek or something like that to be closer because it's just...

you wouldn't be able to hear them. Now, if I am in a creek or if I'm in a position where I can get to a creek and I can work my way up that creek, I think what I've noticed is that those creeks seem to push that wind kind of in your favor if you're walking up the creek. So sometimes it just depends on where you're at in relation to the elk too.

Yep. And, and I always, I've always just kind of thought three to 400 yards was kind of, I wanted to make a circle at least that big. And a lot of it depends on, you know, if it's going down into a Creek or if it's all on the same plane or the same hillside. But now it's,

and i i don't hunt the coast ranges as you know much at all anymore i have it in the past but i think a lot of that comes from hunting the coast range is that you you can't hear as well so you're a little bit more reluctant to just take off and get out you know without it outside of earshot from these elk um and then i'm a very impatient hunter and so one of the things that i always

going through my head is I know that that elk was just right there, you know, at that point in time. But if it takes me 20 or 30 minutes because I've now got to back up over a ridge, you know, go down the backside and come back over, I just, I wait, you know, I'm always weighing that risk on how long is that going to take versus the risk of me getting winded before it ever gets started. You know,

The more patient me as I get older, I'm starting to, you know, to hike back up the ridge and make bigger circles. And, you know, it depends on the time of day and where the elk are going and what their plans are and how fast they're moving. You know, all of that's going to

to kind of tie in, um, to, to just how directive approach and how risky I'm going to be with, with the wind. But, um, that's one thing I made a whole bunch of mistakes on is because I was lazy. Oh, I think I can just go through here. And then, you know, the next thing you hear is a stampede of elk running in the opposite direction. Um, so now, nowadays I try not to ever cheat the wind if at all possible or have a very, very high, uh,

I've got a high certainty that I will not get winded. That usually involves a 500-yard circle, if possible. That's a good point, Jason, because I'm so used to hunting the coast range that when you do get over on the east side where it's more open, maybe not quite as thick and you can see further,

I think that does give you the ability to increase the distance and still keep tabs on where they're at. So I think you're right. I mean, if you can, you know, 300, 400, 500 yards or something like that to give you that buffer is good. And sometimes the terrain is going to dictate that, right? I mean, if you're in broken up terrain...

And it's relatively close. It's easy to get over those ridges and kind of get around on the backside of it and move around and maybe get in closer undetected. Yeah, and that kind of goes into our next point, our next mistake that I used to make a lot is, once again, cheating being seen. You know, I've always put the elk senses, you know, their nose is number one, you know, not even a close race. But number two is their sight, right?

They're pretty good at seeing, they can hear pretty good, but you know, there's natural sounds out there, natural animals. So number two is I used to always, you know, or kind of piggybacks on trying to cheat the wind is trying to cheat their eyesight. Um, I would make an approach or as we just mentioned, if we're over East where the vegetation is in this thick, where me and you grew up hunting or you still do hunt a lot. Um, I always try to avoid, um,

you know, being seen by the elk or even, you know, unless we're a long ways away or I've got once again, got confidence in it because I've found that every, you know, all the decisions I was making when I used to think the elk wouldn't see me or I'm far enough away that the elk wouldn't care. We would get picked off and then it'd be impossible. They might not bug you off like when they wind you, but it would be very, very tough to call those elk in to the point where

Nowadays, I just don't want to be seen by the elk. I want to surprise them. I want to do the shock and awe, you know, whether it's calling or whether it's being seen. I just, I want to avoid being seen by elk, which, you know, once again, on the west side, coastal stuff, it's easy because you got brush and vegetation and timber and jackfurs everywhere. Versus east side, it's a little tougher. Yeah, no, I completely agree. In fact, I started carrying a decoy for that reason when I'm in open terrain.

But, you know, I mean, I've, again, I think, you know, not every elk is the same. Not every situation is the same. I've called in bulls before.

that, that saw me or saw something at least. And maybe they didn't make out enough of, of me to, to really, you know, give them pause, but you know, they, they kind of run off a ways like you say, and you can call them back in. But, but, you know, I think for the most part, you know, like you said, if, if they win you, the game's over. Uh, if they see, uh,

they're going to be a lot more cautious, if anything else. Even if they do kind of still hang out there, they're going to be a lot more cautious because they saw something that wasn't quite right in their mind. And they're going to be very careful in terms of, you know, how close they get to whatever that perceived threat might be. For sure.

next is maybe, you know, I get to go to a lot of sportsman shows. You got to talk to a lot of hunters, get a lot of emails. Um, I feel that more mistakes may be made while setting up, um, for that call in than, than anywhere else. And then archery elk hunters, um,

you know, in the process of trying to kill an elk. You know, here's kind of the atypical story is, you know, I had this bull fired up. I went and set up and they're showing me a video on their phone as we're going through this whole storytelling. And what you'll end up seeing is a bull that hangs up at like 70 or 80 yards and won't commit.

and and you'll see a flash and or maybe the bull will stay there for a little bit and then the bull loses interest and turns away maybe bugles a little bit before he goes off kind of one last come show yourself he'll turn away and leave um it kind of piggybacks on what we said earlier is we're trying to reverse nature and when that elk gets to the point where he should see you um you better be within shooting range um so

When setting up, I feel that you need to set up either on vegetation breaks because a lot of times they will go from thick cover if they're coming out of their bedding or thinner cover if they're going from food to bedding. I like to set up within 40 yards of either side of that because what that gives me is when they get to that change in vegetation break,

We're going to have a shot. And then the same thing with terrain. If I want to be within 40 yards of that terrain break, so when that bull can finally get his eyes up to a point where he should be able to see the cow or the bull calling to him, I want to be able to shoot at that time because 99% of the time that bull is going to hold up at that exact location. Like I could almost draw an X on the map, like that thing's going to hold up here. So that's one of the tips I have.

when going to set up, use the terrain, use that vegetation to your advantage because there were a lot of times

Um, you know, especially like setting up on meadows when I started hunting the high country stuff, I thought the best thing ever was to set up right on the edge of a meadow, you know, be it be in the timber, have a wide open meadow out in front of me because guess what? There's no brush in my way. There's no sticks that are going to deflect. And guess what? I very, I think one time in my life so far, I've got a bull to run wide open through a meadow and actually get to the other side where we could have ever shot it. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I've experienced the same thing and I've done the same thing numerous times. I mean, this kind of going back to what you said earlier, kind of when you when we started talking here, Jason, you know, it we didn't have the same kind of resources that that are available now. And and I didn't have anybody that really taught me anything about archery hunting. It was all by trial and error. So.

So not only that I set up on the edge of clearings thinking that I was going to call a bull in across an open meadow, but I would set up – going back a long time now –

I didn't want that elk to see me, so I'd actually set up behind a bush or a tree or something like that. And thinking that that elk was going to maybe walk past me and I was going to get a shot. Well, I mean, that just doesn't happen, right? I mean, trust your camo, get in front of the tree or the brush or something like, so you've got open lanes.

And for me over here on the coast, it's because it is so thick. It is more about terrain. You know, I've called, you know, I've set up in the wrong place many times. And you call a bull in and they come up over this little rise and they get up there just far enough to where they can peek over that little riser and look and see. And you've got no shot at all. So, you know, you're exactly right. Getting up there.

uh where where you're going to have an open shot not only not only with you know open shooting lanes at least on the coast range but having having that opportunity to be in an area where that bull isn't going to hold up you know do do some calling and and get up there a ways so that that bull doesn't you know pinpoint your location and and that way you've got an opportunity there

Yeah, I can still remember the very first year I ever archery hunted and you were talking a little bit about setting up in the brush. I was super inexperienced and I thought, hey, the best place to be is to jump in this pile of brush. I, you know, for some reason I remember there being some blackberry briars, you know, just finishing out and it was just a tangled mess that we have here on the coastal, you know, vegetation. And, and,

the last thing you think about is that you're going to have, you know, whatever it is, 25 inches of arrow hanging out the front of your bow that you can't move. And, and you can be as careful as you want, but that dang arrow was like getting wrapped up. And then the broadhead gets hung up on something and you can't move. So if you need to move, because unless I just happened to be pointing in the right direction, like you've got to figure out how to draw the bow. You got to figure out how to get it pointed in the right direction. And, uh,

Yeah. From then on, like, I don't even similar to that. I don't even set up on my knees anymore. Like I am, I am on my feet at all times. Um, you know, I, I,

I will set up on my knees if for some reason there's like a level of brush that, you know, if we're in big timber where the brush lines like at three or four feet and I don't want to shoot through it and I want to shoot under it. But for the majority of the time, I'd say I'm setting up on my feet, being fairly mobile in front of the brush or, you know, alongside of a big tree is typically my favorite setup, you know, either behind me or to my direction that gives me a little bit of coverage and

And yeah, so I was, yeah, I learned the hard way on multiple bulls that first season of do not set up in the brush because you, they pick you off trying to move or get a shot. Yeah, for sure. And, and, and you mentioned, you know, setting up on your knees. I used to do that too, because it was comfortable.

you know, I could get down there and I could stay in that position for a long time. But, you know, those bulls will come in from various directions. And just because you're calling to a bull and you know where that bull's at doesn't mean a bull's not going to come in silent from a different direction. So you have to be mobile. You have to be able to turn. You have to get that, you know, whatever that brush is or, you know, sticks or twigs or whatever that's on the ground, get it cleaned out so that,

when you do have to move or you do have to stand up if you're knelt down, that you're not making any noise when you do stand up. And breaking those branches off, when you get into position, when you've got shooting lanes, you know, I was chuckling earlier because you mentioned something about your arrow getting hung up in the brush. I can't tell you how many times I've done that. Just not paying attention and that broadhead catches something and it just, it'll either pull it off the string or

Or it just clanks up against a riser or something. And then, you know, your hunt's over because they heard it. Yep. Yep. And, you know, that brings you... You don't know where the elk's coming from. I like to...

you know visualize all my shooting lanes like if an elk is to come in here and he goes left to right right to left straight at me like where are my shooting lanes and then one thing i i like to always you know explain to people is and you know it may only be one or two times because you're going to figure it out but i learned the hard way is a right-handed shooter i can turn you know we can all sit here listen to this podcast you can turn over your left shoulder

and I can turn 180 degrees, you know, almost to my left and I can get a decent shot off that direction. But if you ask me to turn about 20 degrees to my right and open up, you know, clockwise, I can't shoot anything over there. So I learned really quick that I'm going to put like my left shoulder, if not even shade my back to where I think that bull's going to come from. And then that gives me the widest ability to shoot. And it's just little things where, you know, I don't have to move my feet that way. I don't have to like change my stance.

you know, some of those things on shooting lanes and then, you know, pick out multiple ones. I always recommend take the time before you, there are situations where elk are coming fast and they're not giving you a lot of time, but always try to range, you know, three or four trees, not a bunch of them. I try to get a 20, 30, 40, and then try to draw some circles and some zones out in front of me. But, you know, take the time, figure out your shooting lanes, what your distances are going to be, and then kind of, you know, settle in there. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's good tip right there.

And then the biggest mistake I feel we've talked about it up top on some of the, you know, calling the herd bulls in we've, we've did this enough. We've, I'm sure you've called a bull in from a half mile away, but,

the if you were to start if you were a betting guy i'm going to bet that you would want to get as close as possible before you started calling or tried to call a bull in every time um and that's that's my biggest thing when people go to set up is they don't get close enough um as much as i'd like to tell people i call bulls in from miles away and you know blah blah blah whatever it might be the the fact is if i can get within 100 yards

I think I'm two times as likely to call a bull in from a hundred yards as I am from 200. And, you know, four times as likely to call it in from 200 as I am from 300, you know, it's, it's exponential the closer you get. And, you know, I've always joked, joked about getting a t-shirt made like short distance elk caller, because we do a lot of, you know, we cover a lot of the ground with our feet and only use those calls to do, you know, to manipulate those elk and get them to travel very, very, you know, short distances, hopefully. Yeah, no, I,

I 100% agree. I hear it every year. It's either guys will set up in the brush somewhere and they're calling and that bull is calling back at them, but they never close the distance. That bull will stand out there 100 yards or more and just bugle back and forth at you. If all you want to do is just bugle,

He's happy to do that. Or tree stand hunters. There's this one area that we hunted over in Eastern Oregon where this guy sets up a tree stand. He'll sit up there and bugle his brains out. And those bulls are bugling all the way around him. And they just stay out there. He never gets down out of his tree stand to try to close the distance on him. And like I said, those bulls, if you're not perceived as just some kind of a threat...

They'll just stand there and bugle at you. I mean, why would they want to come closer if you're no threat? Yeah, it's, you know, I've always told people that if you don't become the threat, you're literally just saying, hey, I'm over here. And then he's saying, hey, I'm over there. You know, I think you guys are literally, we are just part of the game where it's just letting everybody know where we're at. Yeah, that's what they do every day.

yep um the next one which i feel is definitely a coastal thing you know thick vegetation thick timber lots of brush no real openings unless you're above a clear cut or you know on a road system is calling too small um let me give me a little bit on kind of what your thought is you know volume wise and and you know how you call to elk out in the woods yeah so

So usually, you know, first thing in the morning when I'm out, you know, hiking in the dark, you know, bulls, at least around here, seem to be way more vocal in the dark because they feel safer. So, you know, I'll go out and throw out a locate bugle. And, you know, if I get something to respond, then I'll work my way that direction.

until the sun comes up, you know, where you can see and you can see your pins. And if you did come in, you could actually have a good shot.

opportunity there. But, you know, as thick as this stuff is and you have to get close to them to be perceived as that threat. And the closer I get, I mean, I will start out mimicking them. And if that works, great. You know, and I've had that work a number of times where you mimic that bull and they don't like it and they come in. But if they don't,

then you're the one that has to make the move. Otherwise, they're just going to stand out there and you kind of get in that game back and forth. But...

I go in as close as I can and I'll rip off a challenge bugle. I'll throw a lip ball in there, big grunts and chuckles, and just as loud as I can and just start stomping on the ground and tearing up brush. That's my strategy. It does work. They do come in closer, but a lot of times over here we don't have all that great of shooting lanes. But

But I found that if you get in their face and you get more volume out of that tube and that call, that oftentimes is what kind of triggers that reaction or that response for them to finally say, I've had enough and I'm coming in and we're going to fight.

Yep. And, and I got a couple of examples. So one reason when I'm locating, I want to call big is my purpose for letting those locator bugles, as we just said, is it's a game of, Hey, I'm over here. And then you hopefully an elk, you know, waves across the, at the Canyon, like, Hey, I'm over here. You know, I'm just, I want that bugle to reach as many elk in that Canyon as possible. You know, people can call me lazy or whatever, but I've already put the time in to walk that Ridge or walk that trail system or bike in a certain road. I might as well let my bugle cover as

much, you know, ground as possible. I don't feel, you know, you can overlocate, you know, if they're there, they'll answer you. If not, then you'll keep driving by or if they heard you and didn't answer, then it is what it is. We didn't necessarily, you know, educate them because they didn't smell us. They didn't see us, you know, now, now driving up and, and,

and calling is a different thing. I think that can educate elk. But so we're calling as big as possible. And then the other thing is, you know, similar to you, I'm fortunate to get to hunt with some great callers and what I would consider some very loud callers at the very high end. You know, we don't set up the

the color too far back. He's usually, you know, 20, 25, maybe 30 yards max, but I've got callers, you know, if I'm shooting and not doing any calling, um, that are cranking on bugles as big as they can be. And, and it's not that loud compared to the real elk that's coming in, you know, that, that elk can rip off, you know, a bugle at 50 yards. Um,

And my buddy who I thought was a loud caller doesn't sound half of, you know, half as that big, half the volume. And so when you're out there in the woods, no matter how loud you think you are, you're just not competing with the real thing. You know, you don't got the lung capacity of a 900 pound animal or 800 pound animal. Um, and so in my opinion, we call big, um,

for locating to reach as much ground. And then when we're calling elk, we call big so that they, you know, once again, we're trying to be a threat and we want to be as big and nasty as we can. And I think we still fall short the majority of the time.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you're exactly right. Our lung capacity and our diaphragm just cannot make the same sounds or produce the same volume that a bull can. So I personally don't think that you can be too loud. I go through a lot of diaphragms each season because, number one, I bugle a lot. And secondly, when I do, I bugle hard and loud. So there's a lot of volume going through there. I try to hit those high ringing notes.

notes that just, you know, pierce your ear. And I want them to know that, number one, I'm here. Number two, I'm close and I'm about to get in your face and we're about to have a fight. And that's the goal, right? I mean, you're not out there playing patty cake with these bulls. You want to, again, be perceived as that threat, get in their face, get as loud and mean and nasty as you want to, or you can. And that's the goal. Yeah.

Yep. And we're on to, you know, in my opinion, the biggest mistake I made, which we, I understand, um, you know, not everybody has unlimited time or can be out there every day is I didn't put enough time in, um, you know, and I'm going to say this is, is, uh, it's not a mistake necessarily, but it's one of the things that I've been able to attribute to success and continued success is I spend a lot of time out there and for a guy that's supposed to know what he's doing, um,

There are times where I can do everything that I think is right and still screw up day after day after day. And so the only thing that's working on my side is the, you know, the additional time that I get to go again tomorrow or the following day.

So, you know, if, if you, you know, I was there, I was a weekend warrior for a long time or a three day weekend guy, you know, it was all I could pull off and then, you know, started to be able to get a week to do it. And I found the, you know, the more time I could put towards it, obviously the more success I found. But that's kind of that last thing is, is, you know, if you don't have time it just, everything becomes tougher. You know, the situations have to work out, you know, better and, and,

As you said, Tony, you're taking two weeks off hunting all the weekends, nights after work. I think one thing that people don't realize is people that are finding success year in and year out, any free time is being dedicated to trying to fill these tags because no matter how good you are, nothing's a guarantee when it comes to elk hunting. No, you're right. It's like a lot of things in life, Jason. The more often you're out in the woods...

That just increases your odds of even incidental encounters, you know, just happen to be set up in an area just, you know, glass and are watching and a bull walks out in front of you. You know, I mean, that's luck, I think. It doesn't happen to me very often. But just the fact that you're out there increases your chances of being successful. And it doesn't matter how good of a hunter you are or how much time you've put in and dedicated to this sport or whatever.

You can't outthink an elk. You can't second guess them. You're going to make the same mistakes year in and year out. And just being persistent, not giving up, you know, going that extra mile when you think, you know, I'm done. I'm just I'm frustrated. I can't do this anymore.

you know, push through it and just keep trying because the only way you're going to be able to be successful is to be out there and, and continue, you know, striving for what you love to do. Yep. And, you know, I, I guess that would be my advice. Um, you know, you can't necessarily control how much vacation time or what you get, but, you know, we, we have guys around home that are, you

you know, what I would consider weekend warriors, but I'll see them, you know, come in at nine o'clock in the morning and then they go back out at four at night. Like there are elk to be killed between nine and four, like give it your all, you know, spend time, um, you know, figure out how to hunt in the middle of the day, like maximize your time out in the field. And, uh, I think you're going to find a lot more success in closing, Tony, if you had to give one golden nugget to elk hunters out there, um, to make them more successful, what would it be?

You know, for me, Jason, it kind of gets back to what I was just saying. You know, I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where, you know, as soon as I get home from work, I can be in the woods in 15 minutes. So spending as much time as you can, you know, perseverance will get you there.

you know, picking up some calls and even if even in the off season, just keep practicing, keep practicing and become more versatile with those calls so that when you're out there in the woods and you're trying to mimic those bulls, that you have more calls at your disposal, more tools in the toolbox, so to speak, so that when the opportunity arises, you can capitalize on that.

That's a great tip, Tony. I really appreciate having you on. Good luck this fall. And yeah, congrats. Congrats again on the standings there at the World Outcalling Championships. Another great showing by you and just kind of goes to show that you're pretty dang good. Well, I appreciate that, Jason, very much. And good luck to you. And congratulations.

Hopefully we can do this again sometime. Yeah, yeah. Thanks a lot. Good luck, Tony, and we'll catch up later. All right. Thanks, Jason. Hey, we're going to take a little break here and talk about interstate batteries. Now, if you're like me, enjoying the great outdoors, you need gear that is as reliable as it gets. That's why I power my adventures with interstate batteries. I use interstate batteries in my boats. I use interstate batteries in my camper. Great for your truck, too. From Alaska to Montana, they're outrageously dependable.

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