The "Rules" of Love
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Who made these rules up? I don't know probably they're probably done in like the night 1800s. Literally whoever made these rules up suck. Once a cheater always a cheater. Okay when you know you know like why so I'm supposed to be like a fairy tale person like Cinderella. Hey guys welcome back. I hate you so much.

Their ears are burning. We have to cut that. Oh my god, okay. Okay. I can't. Okay. I wish we had a different way to intro. Like, I want to say, what's up, everyone, but I can't. Maybe we can just start. Yeah. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Mean Girl Pod. Happy Mean Girl Monday. Happy Mean Girl Monday. There we go. I'm Jordan. We're doing the intros. I'm Alex. We're...

Sometimes you don't want to do the intros, and then sometimes you love doing the intros. I know. It's just like, it's all of a sudden just like hits me. It's newscaster-esque, which I like. Yeah. I don't think they say, welcome to the morning news. I'm Diane Sawyer. Do they say that? Does she say that? No, it just says it. They'll be like, welcome back to Good Morning America. I'm Diane, or Robin Robbins. Does she say it? I think they just, they're very casual now. They're more so like, hey.

Hey guys, welcome back. I'm Michael Schramm. You know what I miss? What? Watching the news. In high school I would wake up and I would eat Eggos and I would watch the news. And it was lovely. I don't even have like cable. I really miss watching Good Morning America every morning. It's impossible now because I get ready in my room and the TV's in the living room. Like my setup in Minnesota was easier where I could like get ready and still watch it. Yeah. Also, I have a roommate and I don't want to be like, hey, I'm going to turn the TV on when she's like...

still sleeping or whatever. Doing her time. Yeah. It's very fair. But I miss it too. It was like a nice time. Yeah. I look forward to one day being older and getting to wake up and be like, I'm going to watch Good Morning America because I can. I actually had like a, a wow, I'm getting older moment and it's kind of cool moment a few weeks ago. Tell me about the moment. I got home and I looked at my room and I'm like, do you care if I turn the news on? I really want to watch the news. And she's like, sure.

And I was like, wow, I'm enjoying the news. Why did you want to watch the news? I don't know. I was just intrigued with...

What was going on? I felt like I wanted to be more informed. I love that. Do you have the news channel? Yeah, so I have YouTube TV, so I get all the channels. Okay, yeah. I have YouTube TV. I must be able to get it. I love local news. It's the best. It's so like... I'm more world news. It's like fake. Oh, okay. I'm a bit more worldly than the local news. Sorry. No, I'm a local news girl too because living in Oklahoma, you don't have much juicy news. But when I moved to LA, I would turn on, there'd be a car chase.

And I'd be like eating, I'd be like, this is, it's incredible. It's like a movie. Yeah. The local news here in New York is probably also like a movie. Yeah. Honestly, so my YouTube TV is, so my parents live in Florida most of the year and we used to be from Minnesota. So the YouTube TV was hooked up to those zip codes. So my local news was Minnesota for a while and then Florida. So I've never actually watched New York local news. Wait, could you type in the zip code like Wyoming and get that news?

So it's wherever the home base is. Okay. So my parents could, but it's too much of a hassle. But I could, yeah. You could wire it there. Yeah. That'd be cool. I'd want to know, like, Jackson Hole, what are they up to? Well, and it's great, too, because it was on Central Time for the longest time. So I would get an extra hour of Good Morning America because it was pushed back. Oh, you were kind of skirting the system. I was. I love it. Yeah, it was nice. But yeah, enough about news. Enough about the local global news. Yeah. And more about the ego. Yeah.

the ego because man have I had a big fat one lately we went to we went out to dinner and

And I was like, Jordan, what's going on with you? And she's like, God, I like this guy. And I was like, oh, okay, tell me about it. Yeah, so I don't really have a lot going on in my life boy-wise, but I was really into this guy. Not anymore, because, you know, with me it changes every single day because I'm the most inconsistent person in the world, which, you know how everyone always is like you contradict yourself? Yeah, you do. It's because I was born on a full moon. No, it's not. Yes, it is, Alex! No, it's not.

It's not. I Googled it. That doesn't, I Google things all the time and I have stage 12 cancer. No, literally. So I was born on a full moon and my 27th birthday was also on a full moon and I was like, wow, this is so cool. What does this mean? And I Googled, what does it mean when you're born on a full moon? And it says that you're more inconsistent, indecisive person where people think you contradict yourself a lot. That's what the Google said when you Googled it. That's what astrology said, Alex.

That is so not true. Anyways, it is. Google is the enemy in this situation. Anyways, so yeah, so I was really obsessed with this guy. But then Alex asked me a very important question, and she said, Jordan, why do you like him? And I couldn't really answer. I thought I knew. But then the more I thought about it,

was it was the ego because you made a valid point. You were like, Jordan, if this guy gave you the time of day and act like he was obsessed with you, you would get the ick immediately and you wouldn't want anything to do with him. Because I remember I've been here. Yeah. I used to like all these guys, but never ones that would like talk to me for more than like an hour. So I would like fantasize in my head about these boys and I'd be like, they're perfect. He's everything that I thought he was. My soulmate.

I'm probably supposed to marry him. And then I'd get him for an hour and I'd be like, oh, what a dork. Literally. It's like as soon as they start giving you attention, you automatically get thick and want nothing to do with them. But then if they want nothing to do with you, your ego kicks in and you're like, I love this person. I'm going to make them obsessed with me. And if they aren't, I will fight for them until the end of time. Yeah. And the problem with this is I don't know that there's anything you can do about it. Like you just time...

time will help, but you just kind of have to sit there and be like, and I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with him. Well, because it was annoying because I was so aware. I was like, I don't actually like this person. It's truly because he's not giving me the time of day. I don't like anything. I mean, I do like things about him, but not enough for me to actually be so obsessed with him. When you sit there and you're like, what's he doing now? Oh my God, what if he's texting another girl? He's probably at dinner right now. And you're making this person out to be like,

Yes. And they're just not. They're just not. In situations like that, can you agree that that relationship probably won't work out because it's based off an ego thing? That's not good. It would literally no more. You would have the ick so fast with this guy if you just had him to yourself for even 30 minutes. That's the problem. He would eat weird. Literally, I was like, ew. He'd say something dorky. He wouldn't hold the door. You would just be like, and in your mind, you've built...

Mr. Right. Literally, it's like either everything, every guy that I've liked is either ego-driven or ick-driven. Yeah. It's obnoxious. What is it going to change? Oh, oh, the ego is a big problem for us humans. Did you ever have an ego issue with Graham, like in the beginning of your relationship? Not in the beginning. Okay.

Well, I don't know. Ego comes up all the time, I think, actually, in any scenario. Like, the other day, Graham was like, he checks me on occasion with this podcast. He's like, all right. Checks you in the face. I was going to ask you, I wanted to know about this. Like, what's the situation? Like, how does he react to, say, like, the last episode? I think a lot of people are wondering because people are asking me. People have you, too. Yeah, they're like, is it all good? And I'm like, well, no, it's all really good. Here's the thing.

He stopped listening. Jordan and I, at the beginning of this, we would be so anxious about what we were putting out there that we would get the episode, we would send it to Graham, we'd say, listen to it, let us know if we've completely killed ourselves. Yeah, he was kind of like our sounding board. Yes, and he'd be like, if you guys are fine, or maybe this was a little out there, but it's ultimately fine. So with this podcast the other day, he's like, hey, let's check in. So you're talking about sex life and things like that, relationship, friendship. How do you feel? Are you going to be proud of this in 10 years? Mm-hmm.

And what I loved about him was that he didn't, he wasn't telling me anything, but he was just asking me. And a lot of it is like our personal life that I'm putting out there. And at first I just wanted to react and it was my ego. And I wanted to beg, how can you not be proud of me? Like we're putting ourselves out there like, but, and then I was like, well, hold on. What a really valid question. Honestly, one that I hadn't thought about. Ironic because we kind of did an internal check ourselves. But then I was like, okay, here's, I feel like,

The only thing we're doing is being relatable to people. We're not offering advice, but we're just speaking our truth, which happens to be what a lot of people go through. We just happen to have mics to put it out there. And then the other thing is we're not talking about people. We're not making people feel bad. We're not putting people down for like our content. I wouldn't be able to sleep if we did that. Yeah. Right.

If we ever spend, like, if you and I were in here fighting or, like, making fun of each other, I don't even think I'd feel good about that. Or putting other women down or other men down even. Yeah, anybody down. Like, if we're, like, tall people only, we're even, like, short kings. Like, if it wasn't, didn't have the positive lens it did, I think I'd feel sick to my stomach. Yes. But when he initially asked me that, my ego responded. And I was like, are you kidding me? And then I was like, no, hold on. It was really nice of you to ask me that. Yeah. Because it was your ego that, like.

came forward before like your actual thoughts yeah and a lot of time the ego gets in the way I find it with arguments too if we get in arguments it's like we cannot be so obsessed with being right we have to be very obsessed with getting the best answer and there's no ego involved in a good answer that happens with like parents I feel like all the time

Because it's like, I'm just arguing with you right now to get my point across because of my ego, not because I actually care. It's like, sometimes I think we want to be the best arguer and play your trump card. And it's like, the older we get, the less attractive that is to me. I feel like I definitely argue less with people the older I've gotten. Because I'm like, I just don't care. I don't care. And I feel like I have, I can step back and be like, oh, I also see your point. One thing I have to say, like with you and I,

that I was nervous about at the beginning was I was like, if egos start getting in the way, this will never work. But I feel like we've both been so good about, like, you have to clap for each other, but also, like, no ego. It's so weird, and I'm not just saying this because you're right in front of me, but I truly don't have an ego with you, which is incredibly hard to find, especially in a

male or female business partner duo. But when something exciting happens for you, I feel like I'm just as excited like it happened to me. Totally. It's so weird. I completely agree with that. Like some days I feel like you're my daughter. Yeah. Some days you're like my sister. Some days you're like my boyfriend. I'm like...

I feel all the emotions with you. Right. And it's like, it's zero. I always say this to Graham and my therapist. I'm like, there's no competitive energy. And I think the second that there was, we'd have to sit down and be like, what do we have to do to stop it? Because it's the worst. And it also feels bad. Do you? And I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's because we have like a, I don't, I, I have no idea. It's like,

Because we were meant to do this? Is it because we have the perfect personalities that complement one another? Is it because we want the same things? Like, I don't know. I think it's because you guys are just so secure in what you're doing and who you are and you're coming from different perspectives and like...

You're the same but different. And you're just secure in that. And you have different, like, opinions. I do feel very secure with you. It's like, you can't compare, like, this is so stupid, but, like, a brunette to a blonde. It's like apples and oranges. Like, married to single. Your opinions are just different. And, like, you find security in that. I think that's really true. I do think the fact that we're so different, even our lifestyles,

have to be different I'm literally married it's like what how where would we compete like your opinions don't clash well they can but that's the fun in it because they come from different recipe yeah mm-hmm that's actually so true and even like our interests outside of work like certain things you've done where I'm like I'm so proud of you but I could never do that and vice versa yeah yeah totally that's actually so true yeah it's nice it is nice it's very nice can I ask you a question yes

While you're wiping your tears? Yeah. Because that last part of the conversation made me so emotional. Okay. So we were talking about the ick and the ego. The ick and the ego earlier. About like 10 seconds ago. And I'm wondering, because that's how every single relationship or every single guy I've ever liked. It's like either it goes the ick direction or it goes the ego direction. And...

I feel like I'm very emotionally unavailable. And I'm wondering, will that ever go away? Is it going to go away because of the person I meet, working on myself, time? Like, that's something I, like... I'm not afraid to be alone and I'm not looking for a person, but the part of being alone that scares me is, will I ever be ready to potentially meet a partner? Because I'm emotionally unavailable right now. Will that ever go away? Like, did you ever feel that way? So...

The answer is that will you ever not feel emotionally unavailable? Yes. Sorry, I had a lot of... No, it's a good question. I have to think about it. You can change. But how? Right. So that's the big one. So Graham, for instance, was very emotionally unavailable. When? At the beginning of dating and then at the beginning of marriage.

I know. Interesting. Oh, so he was there and back, there and back. He was emotionally unavailable and then he wasn't and then he was emotionally unavailable and then he wasn't. That's how I know that you can recover from it. I always think it's too brash to say...

When we do something like once a cheater, always a cheater, that's for sure true. I'm emotionally unavailable. I'll always be emotionally unavailable because then you're not giving people the chance to change. Wait, I need to know why was Graham emotionally unavailable and then why was he not and then why was he again and then why was he not? He wasn't emotionally unavailable because somebody had broken his heart or something like that. He never... He's an introvert.

by nature and he just never allowed himself to be emotionally available. Like it's hard for me to answer this because I know we're about to go through all of these three things and he was emotionally unavailable in every single category and would tell me that. Oh, well we can save that and go through the examples while we go through. It'll be, it'll be easier for me to answer as we go through it, but I'm trying to think of like the one thing where he was emotionally unavailable. He met the right person. I'm his balance. That's what it is. Okay. Yeah.

He is quiet, calm, recharges by himself. I am in your face a little bit, very emotionally available to a fault. And so we balance each other perfectly. And I brought that out of him and he, he liked something in me and it made him feel good inside. And he was like, she's kind of the yin to my yang. And I think he knew that. So then with time, it took a lot of time though.

Like, I was like, you're a good person. We get along really well. I can see potential in you. And, like, we both saw that. But it took him time. And he was like, he got more emotionally available because he felt secure with me. But it took time and the right person to do it. The right person and the right balance. Yeah. I love that because that goes into another one of our...

rules we're going to be talking about when you know you know type of thing. Right. So on that note, I feel like we should just get right into it. Today's episode. I know because Alex and I were talking about how there's so many rules when it comes to being single, being married, finding love, finding a relationship. Like there's so many rules that society has shoved in our face and

They're not necessarily always true. It's definitely situational. And through this podcast, I feel like I had 50,000 rules. And now I would say I have...

A thousand rules. You came into this with a complete, it would be funny to re-listen to episodes like one through five. Yeah, we would not do that. But you had all of these rules and it's like, it's too, it's interesting because one of our things is like, we're like, we don't offer advice, but we had a lot of rules and a lot of them aren't allowing people to change. Yeah, like this podcast is making me remember that humans are very complex and vulnerable

a lot of situations and experiences go into each individual. And just because I have an experience with someone else has doesn't mean it's not valid. And when we were talking about the rules, like three just came up and we want to go through them with you guys because we want to help break your rules too, because we feel like you'll help open up or make a marriage more successful. Yeah. Make you finding a relationship more successful, help you maybe find love.

Maybe help you identify something in yourself that you've been struggling with that you need to do something about. Could be, that could come up. Yeah. So the first one we have is once a cheater, always a cheater. Because I feel like that's like the golden rule we hear across the board. 100%.

And it's like, that's not the case because we have a success story sitting right in front of us. Yeah. I'm just kidding. Yes, we do. No. So I asked Graham last night, I said, I said, tomorrow we're going to talk about once a cheater, always a cheater. And Jordan asked me today, why did you cheat on me? And he's like,

Sorry, Graham. But he was almost like excited that I asked him that. And I was like, I do it because you never actually have. Right. Asked him. Yeah. No, I couldn't tell you. I did. Yeah. I never thought about it. I was so hurt by it. I was just like mad, angry, sad that I never sat down and said, why did you do that?

So I asked him and he said, I don't really think about it unless we're talking about it because I really did like a lot of work to heal it. He said, I think about this two times a week, three times a week. It's like if I could go back to college, it's like I would love to redo it now knowing what I know now. I would have had better relationships. You and I would have had more fun. My life would have been so much better because of it. And I was like, no.

No, no, no, because you cheating on me was the best thing that ever happened to you because it woke you up. And you had to say, am I going to stay being a shithead or do I like this girl? Am I going to make it work? Am I going to become like a better version of Graham? And you did, like relentlessly. So I was like, I think it's a good thing that you did it. So I said, why did you do it? And he said, I wrote it down. Oh, he said it was entitlement.

I think the biggest one was he felt like he was invincible. He's like, I didn't really think you'd find out. If you did, I was pretty sure it wouldn't be that big of a deal. And I was like, wow. But he also said, and so this one surprised me, knowing all of that, he was selfish, but he also was feeling an insecurity.

I was going to say, do you think he self-sabotaged like subconsciously because of the insecurity? Yeah. He said, you know, he's like, I wasn't doing well in school. I was going to quit football. Like I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And so one thing I could do was like go out and party and like get a girl. And so he was like, I was feeling an insecurity. Yeah. I'm like, wow, how like impressive of you to admit that now. Yeah. Cause like I completely agree. I do not think once a cheater, always a cheater. I have many people in my life who have been on all sides of the cheating and

It's been very dependent on the person, the situation. And I think the thing we all forget is that we don't know what that person's doing. They're not saying that cheating is ever okay, but we don't know what they're currently experiencing. At that time, Graham was really going through something where he wasn't doing it to literally hurt you. He was doing it because he was hurting inside. Totally. And we forget that. That's why we have to let people change.

He reminded me right after I found out I had a bunch of girls over and we like had a wine night and I posted an Instagram photo of like just me with holding a dog. And I said, can't teach an old dog new tricks. So it reminded me at the time I thought once a cheater, always a cheater without a doubt. True. Yeah. That would be my advice to any of my friends. I'd be like, forget him. We move on. But I think when it happens, you have to stop and ask yourself like,

As a guy or as a girl that was the cheater, you have to be like, do I want to change? Because it's a painful process to change, right? Yeah. If you're like, I want to change as a person. Like if cheating is bad and I want to be good, you're going to have to go to like a really vulnerable state because it's not as simple as I want to be a better person. And then you just walk out the door and you've done it. If it was that simple, it would have never happened in the first place. So he's like, he had to ask himself, do I want to do this? Number two, is this the girl I want to do it for? Yeah. Yeah.

And maybe the answer to that would be no. And you want to change because of the situation. But in his case, he wanted to change because of the person. Yeah. Cheating is so complex. Like it's actually, it's, it's one of those things where there's no situation is ever the same. Never, never the same. There's no answer. There's no, there's no solution. Yeah. And I think, I think there's instances where it's like once a cheater, probably, I mean, he's just always going to be doing that. Yes. Or there's the ones where

Where you're like, it could be the best thing that ever happened to him because you had to shed that shithead face really fast and consistently. And it brought out a good part of you. And because of his parents, like, he had a really good moral foundation. I'm always like, you're a good person. You just had to find it. Yeah. And Graham is literally the nicest person I've ever met in my entire life. So now I can talk about it now because I'm like, I'm so secure in it and like who he became. Yeah. But in times of...

I think you really see who people are and then you see your true colors and then you learn to trust them. Yeah. The reverse of it though would be if he'll do it for you, he'll do it to you. You heard that one? Yeah. You told me that one the other day and I was like, that's so true. And you, you know what I think the problem there is? So if he'll do it for you, if he cheats on his girlfriend, he'll do it to you.

for you how do I give this I'm just going to use this as an example of Graham and you hooked up and then he started dating you I know terrible but like the analogy for the listener would be Graham and Jordan hook up he did it for you safe to assume he would turn around and then do it to you in about 10 years

Yes. Because nobody there ever got caught, punished, had to wake up. It was okay. That's actually so true because I think about that a lot where someone cheats on their, let's say, husband or wife and then they leave that person for that person they cheated on. It's like, who's to say that they won't do that again to you because they didn't deal with any consequences. They got away scotch-free. Is it scotch-free? Scotch-free. Scotch-free. No one slapped their hands. Yeah, so wait, what do you think about that one? You think it's a problem? I feel like...

it could in Graham's situation you because of you it was a learning experience because if you would have been like Graham it's okay we can keep doing this I don't think you would have changed but you literally were like dude we're done and he had to fight for you for six months yeah bring you breakfast right you know it's every single day like he had to truly change and know that there was consequence in his actions where in some situations people cheat and they get away with it and I don't think that's I think that they would do it again then yeah I think

Think about teenagers, like how they steal. If they just keep getting away with it, they're going to keep stealing. But as soon as they get caught and like go to the police, they're not going to steal again because they're going to be, they know there's consequences. Right. It's just like, it's so basic with everything in life. One of two things has to happen. Yeah. You either have to grow up or somebody has to be like, yo, we're not going to do this. And you love them enough that you're like, wait, what? Like also it's college is so young.

Yeah. Like, you're not the same person. I mean this in, like, the nicest way, but in a situation like Alex's where someone that you're in a relationship with cheats on you, but you want to make it work, it's on both of you to change the situation. Because, literally, if you wouldn't have...

made him work for it, I don't think you guys would be where you are today. Absolutely not. If I would have gone soft, no chance. Yeah. Like as the girl in that scenario, knowing, okay, it goes to not accepting behavior you don't observe, deserve. Yes. Not accepting. Say that again for the people in the back. Not accepting behavior you do not deserve. I was like, I don't deserve this. No one does. So it's a hard ass full stop scenario where we just broke up.

And, like, I don't give a shit how cute you are, whatever you are. Like, sorry, but I'm telling this. I'd say, one, you're not special. Two, you're highly replaceable. And if we cannot learn that, then we cannot be together. And he just, like, I don't know what it was, had it in him, and, like, he heard it. Yeah. Okay, so I think to wrap up, once a cheater, always a cheater. It's definitely situational. And, I mean...

I don't even know how to, I don't even know. Well, I think about this. If I was in high school, maybe I was mean to somebody and then they meet me now and they're like, I just, I just, I actually was not, I was a lot of things in high school. Mean was not one of them. Um,

Whatever you were, though, at one point. And then you meet the person ten years later and you're like, holy shit, she grew into herself. She was so nice. Can you imagine if your reputation back then, though, like, stayed with you forever and you didn't have the right to change? That would be horrible. That would be that for me. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, so hopefully no one's going through this cheating situation now, but if they are, hopefully some of that context helped. But he better now. Or she. She or he better be working their ass off. Yes. And

And if you're listening and you did the cheating and you want to win your partner back, you better put in the work. And maybe you don't want to win your partner back and that's okay too. Maybe it taught you that. Maybe that's what showed you that. Like there's always a, there's a lesson in it. Yeah. Oh my God. Cheating. I feel like it's very eyeopening because it sometimes is your way of ending a relationship because sometimes people think the only way to break up with someone is

By cheating. Yeah, you might be like, oh, I didn't really like them. Yeah, so I'm just going to cheat because then they'll have to bring up with me. Yeah, I mean, it's shitty, but you did learn something. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's... Well... Yeah, well, okay. Learned a lot. And what's the next one? Okay, so this one is my favorite because I'm single and I...

thought I believed in it until I was talking to Alex yesterday and it's when you know you know everyone's always like when you know you know like everyone you know what people say to me all the time what Jordan when you know you'll know and then you won't be alone anymore and I want to be like F you I don't mind being alone

Yeah, I don't know if anybody listens to this and has gotten the image that you are upset about being alone. I think they... Yeah. Like, I have the right to be boy crazy and love boys but still want to be alone. Like, that's fine. You're 27. You're just figuring it out. Like, you're just like, I don't know yet. I haven't found him, but, like, I'm down to find him. Like, I don't think it's that... Yeah. You're literally dating. Yeah.

Literally. You're just like single in the city down to go on dates. Like it's not. Yeah. This isn't the sob story. No. It's actually quite happy. Yeah. I love it actually. Yeah. Wait, what? We'd have a terrible podcast if you didn't.

I actually cry in my room every night. I'm depressed. Okay, so because you're married, when you met Graham, did that rule apply? Like, did you know that he was the one? No. I thought I was going to marry. I counted. I think I thought I was going to marry four guys in my life.

And I was like, you're three. And you're like, and like, I'm like, I am building this person up and I'm like, I could see it. We're totally going to get married. Like I can't live without him. And it's like, I barely know you. I have a crush on you or I'm just newly dating you. And I think I'm going to marry you. Yeah.

If when you know you know was true, I'd be married and divorced four times. I'd be married and divorced three times. And I'm like, how can somebody still say to you, when you know you know? It's like, no, you don't. Okay, but eventually, when you know you know? Yes, I think you have to ask yourself, do I see potential? If so, I might know. Because how far along into your relationship with Graham were you like, he is the person that I'm going to marry? Did that ever happen? It happened after...

the cheating and we got back together I asked myself I kept asking myself like you always talk about the ick he never everybody else in my life was giving me the ick big time and I had been through hell and back with grandma I was like there's no ick I'm head over heels with him I see a ton of potential and who he is as a person like for me the opposite of when you know you know is no do you see potential and it's like yes or if that person ever gives you the ick they're the one

No, no. But he never gave me the egg. That's what I mean if they never give you the egg because they're the one. Yeah, like I kept being like, and then I say, can I see a future with him? Like in 10 years, is this who I want to, is this like the type of person I see me growing up with? And I'm like, yeah. Yes. That's actually so valid because I feel like a lot of us forget to look at this person in a futuristic lens. What was your quote today that you sent me?

So I follow this page on Instagram that just gives me motivational quotes every day. And it says, direction is so much more important than speed. Some are going nowhere fast. That to me applies here. Yeah. Like you have to look at the direction. Yes. Direction's everything. Because at the beginning, it's fast, heavy. The speed is all there. But you're like, well, hold on. You have to think so long term. But I think the opposite of when you know you know is...

If you're afraid of being single, if you're afraid of like a timeline. So you're trying to like force it into a box. Yeah. Like when you know, you know, and then you're like, well, but maybe like I might know eventually it's like, no, you have to ask, do you see potential or are you just afraid of being alone? Are you imagining in your head them with somebody else? And you like can't because it's like, that's not what we're talking about. I feel like outside factors definitely cloud when you know, you know.

Because if I was freaking out of being alone, let's say all I wanted was to be married and have kids, like that outside factor, the first guy who took me on a date would be like, oh, he's the one. I knew. I knew it. But it's like, no, it's just because of my brain. All I want is to be married with kids.

Yes. So then you're like, he'll fit. He's fine. Yeah. And it's like, maybe not. No. I think, I guess the question for that is, okay, do you see a future with this person or do they give you the ick or, or do, do I really love every single thing about them? You ask yourself all these questions and if it's not the hell yes, then it's the no. Yeah. That applies here. That's why I also like love organic relationships with men because I,

It allows you to get to know them on different levels to see if you can get to that point of knowing if they're the person for you. That's why I always think when you're friends with a guy first or when you meet them in, unfortunately, a work setting because you're with them every day or let's say you're part of a club or a sporting event. Over time, you get to know them. And then one day you might be like, wow, maybe I could see them in a different way. Maybe this could work because you've gotten to know them. You know what I mean? Well, you know them as a person too. I'm laughing.

I feel like you were adding me. Oh, that's true though. Yeah, no, it was. I was like, I didn't think that at all. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you didn't, when you saw Mike for the first time, you weren't like, he's my boyfriend.

Actually, the first thing I thought when he sat down at my desk was, oh, fuck. Really? Yeah. Interesting. I've had that moment with a few people I've dated. I was like, oh, this is not going to be good. Because I had a boyfriend at the time. Oh, shit. He's going to be a problem for me. Yeah. Did you know, though, he was going to be your person? I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. And this always reminds me of the, like, can girls and guys be friends thing. And I've, like, thought about that a lot.

And, like, with that, I think, like, girls and, like, our friendship was very, like, one and one. Like, we weren't, like, we were, like, we would get lunch together. Like, if he was not going out with our coworkers, like, I wouldn't go. Did you?

Did you know? Like, we were very, like, attached like that. Did you know why you were doing that, though? Like, or was it subconscious? It took me a while to notice it, to realize why I was doing that. I thought we were just, like, very good friends. Because then, because I had other guy friends at work, but it was more, like, rounded. Like, I didn't give a shit if they were going or not to something. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think I realized, like, we were, like, each other's, like, one friend, like, one and one friend. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's very fair. And then one, like, one time...

There was, like, a moment at a bar where we were like, oh. Are we, like... Are we about to kiss right now? Should I just call it love? Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like with people...

I definitely think when you know, you know, but I think we have to get rid of the love at first sight behind when you know, you know, type of thing. Like, I think you'll know when you know, but it doesn't need to happen the first time you meet them. It could happen a year in to meeting them. Yes. There's no fairy tale feeling. It's not love at first sight. It's so true. No. Like, when you... It's work. Can you think about times you felt that way and it makes you, like, so embarrassed now? Yes. Like, it's so embarrassing. I remember all the times that I, like, knew that the person I...

Like, okay, so you guys know when you're with, when you're talking to a guy or you're dating a guy, you know that moment where you're like, wow, I love this person. Like, I know every moment that that's happened to me in my life. And that's kind of like the, when you know, you know, moment. Yes. Like, I don't, now they look back. I'm like, I don't think I was in love with them, but I think I loved them and cared for them. But like, I knew, you know what I mean? Yeah. You knew that it was reciprocal and like, they really cared about you. Like, you know, like something switches. Like with Graham, were you like one day, like,

sometime in the past for you like this the love hyped up yes I fell over time I fell in love with him more and more I still I still fall I still fall more in love with him every day and I always say like I'm like how is this happening like more than the day before and you like don't think you can but yeah it was a process and it was a process with being like you're the one for me to like when I remember when he asked me to marry him I remember being like without it like

just the most yes in my entire life and I never thought it would be like that I thought I'd be like oh I think so yeah but I was so sure so in that moment I did know like did you know when you loved him yeah I knew when I loved him do you guys remember that moment where you like loved them yeah but you falling it was a process of falling in love and then when he said it I was like oh yeah yeah I've been thinking that I love that yeah what about you

Well, you said. You talked about yourself. In regards to what? No, yeah. You said that you loved and cared for that person but weren't, like, in love. Well, I just... I'd like to think that I... So, they always say, like, you have three great loves in your life, but you love them all differently. And I truly...

I don't know. I don't want to believe that I've been in love because I want to think that I'll be in love with the person I marry. But I definitely have loved people and cared for them more than anything in this world. But I don't know. For some reason, I don't want to believe that I was in love. That's fair. I think you're like wanting to save it. Yeah. I want to save being in love. I've definitely loved, but I want to save being in love with like my future husband. Yeah. That's a sacred. That's, I'm for that. Yeah. They say you have like your toxic love, your...

I always say, like, one that got away, which I don't believe. Actually, no. Isn't, like, your toxic love, like, your best friend love, and then, like, the love of your life? Mm-hmm. Yeah. The one that got away. That's stupid. That, if we want to put that in the, that is the stupidest thing ever. No, if it was meant to be, it would be. Yeah, they don't get away. You never stopped putting that in people's minds. Yeah, that's a, that one's a no. Yeah. Think, oh, there's the one that got away. It's like, blah.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, definitely, like, I've had the talks. Like, I've had, like, the best friend love. But now I'm waiting for, like, the love of my life. And you should. Yeah, and I'll get it one day. You will. It isn't where you guys are going to see who it is. I know. This whole podcast is going to know. Isn't that crazy? It's exciting. It's kind of like having a kid. Like, you see them grow up. Yeah. It is kind of like having a kid. I know. It's so weird to think, like, hopefully...

hopefully, I mean, hopefully I find the person within the next, like, 10 years, but that the people that I'm around now will, like, see it from the beginning. It's kind of cool, though. It's really cool. Watch the evolution of it and, like, there'll be the hard times. Yeah. And there'll be the good times, the bad, there'll be all of it. Like, I wish, with the people I'm meeting, like, you guys now, I would like to have seen the beginning parts of your relationship. You know what I mean? Yeah. But... It was...

It was crazy. It was a whirlwind. A lot of lives. We've lived so many lives. So I think with, for me at least, when you know you know, we need to get rid of the notion of love at first sight, but I think...

When you know you will know, it just, there's no timeline when you know you know. Yeah. Ask yourself, do you see potential? And do not, the caveat would be like, oh, I'm afraid to be single. I'm afraid of the timeline. I'm afraid of being complacent. When you see the future. Yeah. Do you see the future with them? A quick side note, I think that's just like something that people need to really consider. If your futures don't line up,

Yeah, think about where you're going, what you want, your morals. There's a lot to consider. If Graham was like, Alex, I want 15 kids by 25, and you're like, no. I want a career for a second. Yeah. It'd be different. I think so many of us forget to think about the actual logistics that go into people's futures, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And how they are as a person is so big. And how they treat you.

Oh, yes. Oh, I could go on a tangent for that for years, but we're not going to do that. Okay. Because we have another rule. We have one more rule. But before that, we got to talk about credit karma. A, B, J, get away.

Yes, Credit Karma.

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I have really changed my views on. And it's, if you wanted to, he would. You used to say that at the beginning of this. Oh, that was my excuse for everything. If you wanted to, he would. It was my cop-out. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It was your excuse to push a guy away, too, I think. Literally, they did one thing wrong. If you wanted to, he would. If you wanted to, he would. Yeah, if he wanted to text me, he would text me. Yeah. If he wanted to meet up with me, he would meet up with me. But what about if she wanted to, she would? Well, I was going to say...

It's so frustrating for guys probably that we put all the pressure on them. And then we do this. We're like, in our 20s, when we're in the courting phase, like, you need to court me. You need to make all the first moves. But then when we're 40, we're like, guys, I have too much power. And we're like, well, of course they do. We trained them that way. Like, how are they supposed to win? Yeah, and also I think we forget. So I was talking to one of my best friends back home the other day, and she kind of like –

socked me in the face with knowledge and she was like Jordan knock it off with the if you wanted to he would because other things happen in people's life mental health you don't know what he's going through what if he did this in his past relationship and it hurt him so now he's tainted or or what if he's traveling for work and he's so busy think about how busy you are during the working day like life happens you aren't the center of the world like stop with that if you wanted to he wouldn't I was like whoa yeah no it's true like right it's a really good point like

So when Graham and I had been on like four dates, I finally was like, why haven't you kissed me? He hadn't kissed me. And I was just like, why haven't you? That's a long time. Yeah, I would go home every day and I'd be like, what on earth? And he was like, I have wanted to kiss you since our very first date. But he's like, A, I don't know how you're reading the situation. B, I don't want to do something to you that you like find disrespectful. Like he was like, I can't tell how you're reading it. Like, I don't know if you want me to.

But he's like, he wanted to. Yeah. But he was worried about me. I think, I think if we say, if he wanted to, we would, we miss out on like a lot of respectful guys too. Yeah. Also that's what you just said is so valid because I don't know. Are you, so when you were dating, were you someone that not wasn't like cold, but a little bit harder for guys to read? Like you weren't the flurry type that made it known that you like somebody?

Or were you? No, I definitely was. Like, I think he knew... At the beginning, like, he definitely knew everything I was thinking, feeling, and knew I liked him. But today, you said this earlier, today in age, Graham will be like, do you realize I can't actually read your mind? Yeah. Like...

there are so many times that like, I want to do these things. Like I used, I will, I still to this day will let, if he wanted to, he would upset me. Yes. And I'll be like, but if he wanted to touch me like he would, and he's, and then it's like, no, think of the subject, Graham. He, he handles things differently. Like he's calm and stable. I'm more chaotic. So sometimes I'm like,

Hey, like, why aren't you touching me? And he's like, I have had the worst day and I've clammed up. Yeah. And it's like, he's like, of course I want to. I need you to come touch me. Yeah. You know, and it's like forever you're going to deal with it. Well, yeah, it doesn't matter if you're married, single, trying to get in a relationship. If you want to, it would affect every human being. All the time. Did you ever feel like being cool girl, like, made you, like, made someone, gave someone the wrong impression and then they... Yes, of course.

Yeah. Wait, wait, what does that mean? Explain that for like, I feel like I used to do this like in college, like I would play it too cool. Like,

Like I'd play the ice queen thing and like be like, I don't give a fuck if you live or die. And then that would give the guy the wrong impression. And then he would just think I was completely uninterested and like go home with another girl in front of me. You were playing hard to get. Right. And he interpreted it as like, got it. She's sending me no signals. Like I remember vividly this moment that I was like, I'm never doing that again. Was like, I went on a date with a guy. It went really well. Then the next day was Halloween and we were at a,

together and I didn't say hi to him because I was trying to be cool. Yeah. And then that night he left with another girl in front of me. Therein lies. And he was and then I saw him again and I was like why would you do that? He was like I thought our date went horribly like you didn't even say hi to me at the party. Yeah. In your mind you were like he knows I'm playing hard to get with him. In his mind he's like she doesn't even know I exist. Yeah like why she was like I was like shocked like. Yeah. Like it

And that rattled me because I thought I was being cool. Yeah, totally. You thought he would try again with you. And he's like, why would I waste my time? I guess that's a good point. If he wanted to, he would. It's completely debunked by playing games. Literally, that's something that I struggle with every single time I meet a new guy. It's like, am I going to play the cool girl card or am I going to play the nice girl card? And it bites me in the butt because...

I am learning over time that I'm not that great at like being up front with people and showing them how I feel. Yeah. And a lot of the times I'll like text guys and I'll be like, why did they respond the way I wanted to? And then I'll screenshot it, send to my friend. And then they're like, Jordan,

I'm your best friend and I can't even read this message. You sound like you hate him. So it's so true because it's like, if he wanted to, he would. Maybe if he knew what you were actually thinking, which is never because it's impossible to ever know what someone's thinking. Yeah, if he wanted to, he would is so unfair to guys. It's so unfair. And it's the same with unfair to girls in our brains. Yeah, it's like, what do you want him to do? Why does it have to be the guy? We don't even give him a chance. Also, like...

Whenever a girl's like, well, he needs to text me and I am a victim of this. I do this all the time. It's like, if you want to, you do it. Yeah.

Yeah, he might not text you because he doesn't want to bother you. He probably wants to text you. Yeah. Like, but he's afraid to text you. It's more goes, if he likes you, it won't matter type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And Graham said last night on this one, he was like, it's so hard these days because if a guy misreads the situation, it can like almost ruin their life forever.

Like, if he touches you in the wrong... Like, he's like, how are guys... Guys can't win today. Everyone's, like, scared to death. That's actually so true. So true. Like, guys are... They're dumb. Yeah, like... They're girls, though. Right. It's just like, I don't know. You can't live by if you wanted to, we would. Or you'll do nothing. And also, it can affect relationships and marriages so much because, let's say...

Graham didn't wash the dishes. Like, let's say you and Graham are in a new relationship and you guys just moved in together and he won't wash the dishes. And you're like, Graham, why won't he wash the dishes? This is freaking me out. And in his mind, he's like,

Because I've had a dishwasher my whole life, but now we don't have one. Why would I just... How am I supposed to just assume to know that I should be the one that washes the dishes? Yeah, right, right. Because maybe in your past relationship, your ex-boyfriend always did. Right. So you got to communicate. Yeah, if he wanted to do something sweet for me, he would. Yeah, oh. Okay, well, that's not his love language. His love language is words of affirmation, so that's why he's not doing it. Wait, Alex...

The love language plays in, oh my God, literally the love language thing. Because yeah, my thing of doing something sweet would be so different than someone else's. And in my head, I'm like, he might say I'm pretty every day, but he won't buy me a gift. So if he wanted to, he wouldn't. So he doesn't love me. Exactly. It's like, no, that's not how he receives love. He gives it how he receives it. And it's like, it's this whole circle. And it's just like, okay, well, how do we solve it? Well, you have to communicate.

Also, I've realized too, this past year especially, just because I have been shooting my shot more, if a guy isn't giving me the answer I want, now I'll just be like, dude, what the fuck? I'll straight up ask them. And every time I do...

Their answers are always what I wanted to hear. They're always like, no, I didn't know that's what you meant. Right. Like, cause I, cause I had no idea. Cause you sent a cryptic message and you were like, can, can they read between the lines? And it's like, no, nobody can. All we can read are the lines. Like I remember one time I was texting this guy and I was like, dude, you're so hard to read. And he was like, really? Really?

He's like, I don't mean to at all. He's like, I actually really love talking to you, but I didn't really know what you were thinking, so I was just trying to play it cool. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's this crazy vicious cycle in which the guys can do it all, but then it's like, then when we're older in life and...

The guys are like, hey, we should do X, Y, Z. You're like, you don't tell me what to do. Yeah. It's like, but you used to want to. Like, what? Yeah. It's impossible to please. Impossible. Poor guys. Literally, I feel bad. They have a lot of pressure on them. Somehow, if he wanted to, he would make us feel bad for the guys. I know. If I was a guy, I would never date because we put so much pressure on guys. It's impossible, too. It's like, you figure it out. You court me exactly how I want to be courted without me telling you. You pay for the first five dates and call me and text me first and

initiate everything but not too much or else you're too eager yeah because we don't like eager yeah you can't be eager but you can't be too hard to get and basically i'm just gonna hate you either way like okay that's why i truly believe out of all these rules it goes back to like i think when you like genuinely like someone you'll know and these things won't matter they won't they won't matter and as much it's like it's the hardest thing to explain but when you're in sync with somebody you're just in sync with them and it just works yeah when you vibe you vibe

No other way to put it. And the thing about rules are, like the thing about all these rules on these pieces of paper that we have. Rules are made to be broken. But I feel like the thing is like, as a people, the only way we progress is if we change. And it's like with all of these old stale rules, it's like how on earth

earth or is anybody supposed to find love like we're gonna constantly be like not you well you broke that rule well you broke this rule it's like we can allow people to evolve change and good people are good people no matter what the rule book says who made these rules up i don't know probably they're probably done in like the night 1800s literally whoever made these rules up suck once a cheater always a cheater okay when you know you know like why so i'm supposed to be like a fairy tale person like cinderella it's the rom-coms that did it

Those are movies. I know. Life's not a movie. No, they are not the real life. No. So, yeah. So, I feel like if you're struggling with any of these, like, just, like, take a seat back and try to dissect the situation. You know? Yeah. And I feel like there's, like, a layer of...

Be kind to yourself. Like, when you know you know, like, okay, hold on. Like, ask yourself some questions. Once a cheater, always a cheater. That one is hurting. Like, someone's heart's hurting in that scenario. And then if you wanted to, you would, is...

Be kinder to him. Yeah. And be kinder to, like, maybe they have an actual life that's going on outside of you. Maybe you don't know how they grew up. Like, they handle things different. Yeah. Or their past relationships. Like, just remember, just because you haven't experienced something that someone else has doesn't mean it's not valid. Highly. I try to think about that every day. Absolutely true. And also, what was that one thing that you said? I want to, like, write it down and save it forever. It was about the cheating thing. Like...

why you wouldn't get back together with Graham when he cheated on you. Like, I don't accept behaviors. Oh, don't accept behavior that you don't deserve. I love that. That's a big one. That, I love that across all aspects of life. But with that, I think you can say, I don't accept this and then that person can change. There is room for that. It's not this brash, no,

No, never again. I think people changing is a conversation, a good conversation for another time because that's a deep one. Yeah, and if you think about it with friends too, you've had fights with friends and then you guys get back together and you're best friends again but you're better because of it. Think about how much I've changed with this podcast. Total? That's actually a good point. Same. Because my experiences have changed. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. Being, yeah, that's different. That's a different time. I think we're about 17 more thoughts. Okay. But on that note, Amy, take it away. Like, comment, subscribe, follow us on Instagram, follow us on TikTok, join the YouTube channel, and leave us a review. Join the YouTube channel? Subscribe to the YouTube channel, which I haven't done yet. Still. You just followed us?

TikTok. This morning I was like, I'll follow. Literally, she just followed the Mean Girl Pod on TikTok. So, and then also leave a review on Spotify, Apple. Do the whole thing. Merch is still live. Get your merch. Get a phone case. I think the phone cases are awesome. Same. I love these things. I love the phone case. We love you guys. Yeah. Have a great rest of your week and we will see you next week.