The Art Of Decision Making Featuring Trey Gowdy
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Well, welcome to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and thanks for joining us. We're going to have a good one today. We're going to have a conversation with Trey Gowdy, one of my favorite people on the planet, and he's written a new book, Start, Stay, or Leave.

We're going to talk about the Oversight Committee. And by the time this podcast comes out, we don't do it live. I recorded it on Valentine's Day, and it's just now coming out. So you'll understand that as we get going. But I really do appreciate you joining us because I think we're going to have a good, robust discussion. Again, we're going to talk a little bit about the news.

And then we're going to talk about the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. So before we get to the conversation with Trey Gowdy, let's talk about the news.

News that probably should have gotten more attention when they happened. And I saw this one story on foxnews.com. It should have been everywhere. But there's an allegation. It's buried in this lawsuit that is probably not getting enough attention. I don't know where the lawsuit's going to go. But if it is indeed, as is the allegation, it's pretty outrageous. Because evidently, the allegation is that the fingerprints...

of unvaccinated New York City teachers were reportedly sent to the FBI with, quote, problem code and, quote, flags prompting outrage from former educators who lost their job over the mandate. So there's a lawsuit in place. Are you kidding me? If that's true,

that they took people that were unvaccinated and sent them to the government, anywhere in government, let alone the FBI, to say, hey, here's some problem with people. Anyway, a guy named John Bursch, who is representing the teachers, they're suing over this mandate, and said that teachers who refused the shot now have a flag in their file saying,

I can't imagine, you know, the stuff that comes up and that we discuss here sometimes is just so outrageous.

But the idea, if you chose not to get a vaccination, now it goes on your permanent record with the government. It's just absurd. And the idea that somebody in the government is keeping track of that, that is none of their business. That's just my take on it. Another thing that I saw that showed up on FoxBusiness.com, you know, there's a lot of these indications about, you know, Joe Biden saying, well, I'm not going to give

anybody who makes less than $400,000 a year, nobody is going to get a tax increase. Well, that is just a real stretch of the truth. It borders in probably as a fabrication because

It is just not true. Look, Joe Biden, just in the State of the Union, talked about what are called stock buybacks. So if a company goes out there and they offer their publicly traded company, if the company then decides to buy some of their stock back, the president wants and the Democrats want to tax that and with a 400% increase of the rate that it used to be.

Somehow the government thinks that they're entitled to more of this money and more of this transaction and that that won't affect anybody who's making less than $400,000. But that's just not true. That's just not the way it works. So you have this, I'm going to slaughter his name, Burton Malkiel, who was on with Larry Kudlow, is one of the sharpest minds there is in terms of

of finance and government and taxes and whatnot. And he's quoted as saying, "What people don't realize is that sure, poor people don't own a lot of stock directly,

They own very little, but most of us all own stock indirectly through our 401ks, end quote. That's true. You may buy into a mutual fund. You may have a retirement plan. You may have a 401k. There are tens of millions of Americans who don't make $400,000 a year. Firefighters, teachers, nurses. I mean, you just go down the list of whatever it might be. You're

You may work at a steel fabricator. I mean, there is an endless list. You may work at Jiffy Lube and be in management. I don't know where it is, but you might have a 401k, which means maybe you're buying into a mutual fund. Or maybe you have a modest amount of money. Maybe you have $500 or $1,000 and you just decide, look, I don't know how to pick winners and losers with individual stocks, so I'm just going to buy into a mutual fund.

Every single one of those is affected by that. So why is it that the Democrats, their default is always more government, more taxes, and don't be telling us that you're not going to raise taxes. We don't have a tax and revenue problem. We have a spending problem.

Revenues after Donald Trump instituted the so-called tax, Trump tax cut. Guess what? Revenue to the Treasury was at an all-time high because the economy was zooming.

It's only when government faltered is when we kept spending when we didn't have the money or we cut taxes, but we kept spending. That's what we get ourselves into trouble. The reason we have inflation, the reason we have the $31 trillion in debt and the untold amount of money that we're paying in interest, the reason that's all there is because government is spending too much money and they keep printing more money. That's what causes the inflation.

Anyway. All right. Let's go on to the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. All right. The Biden administration on Monday announced another sale from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Ladies and gentlemen, that is just flat out stupid. It's going to bring us back to the lowest level of reserves since 1983. Okay.

The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is not there as a piggy bank for the president to just try to manipulate what oil is selling for, what their gasoline costs are. That's not what it's there for. Do we not pay attention to what just happened in Turkey and Syria? Literally tens of thousands of people were killed. They're in a state of emergency for three months trying to rebuild this country. What if, heaven forbid, there was an earthquake in the United States?

What if there was some huge, huge event? What if there was war? What if there was an errant nuclear bomb that went off? You can think of a lot of different reasons why all of a sudden the flow of oil products from around the world would cease and come to a halt. The reason that this was put into place is so that we would have what ends up being just a few months of supply,

of oil and gas so our country could continue to move on and that it wouldn't be so devastating. But oh no, not with Joe Biden, not with Kamala Harris. They are going to tap into 26 million barrels. Donald Trump, when he was president, was building back that reserve to the point where it was at full capacity.

Not Joe Biden. He's taken us back to 1983. And oh, what could go wrong, Mr. President? Stupid move. Absolutely stupid. All right. And the last one with the stupid is usually we come up with a story of Florida man. This time it's Florida woman. She was got in a little fight, I guess, at a convenience store store.

Police had to be called because the allegation was she was trying to steal some Slim Jims. Now, no doubt, I can testify that Slim Jims are good. They're tasty. Oh, I love a good Slim Jim. But you know what? She wanted those Slim Jims. The allegation is without paying for them. And so the police were called.

A little fight ensued and she was beating that store clerk with the Slim Jims and that ended her up in jail. She's facing a $2,600 bond. I know those Slim Jims are tempting, but you just can't go steal them. And now you're facing $2,600 in a bond to get yourself out of jail. Oh, Florida woman, not a good idea.

Let's call Trey Gowdy. Now, Trey has been a friend for a long time. We served in Congress together for a number of years. We were both on judiciary. We were both on the Oversight Committee. Trey Gowdy ended up chairing the committee once I left. And we're going to talk a little bit about that and about his book. So let's get Trey Gowdy.

Trey Gowdy, Jason Chaffetz here. Thanks for joining me. I am so happy to be with you, JC. How are you doing? Doing great. You know, I made a list of everybody I'd want to spend Valentine's Day with, and you were not on it, and yet here I am with you. So...

I'm so glad to be with you. Well, hang on a second. First of all, thank you for reminding me. Is today Valentine's Day? Yeah, you know, Terry, your wife, she might be impressed if you actually, you know, got her some flowers or something. I have a different take on Valentine's Day, Jason. There's a verse in the Bible that says it's more blessed to give than to receive. Have you heard that? Yeah, yes. Okay.

Okay. Well, I want my wife to be blessed. Therefore, she needs to give me stuff. Because if I don't receive, then she won't be blessed is how I interpret that. You know, that's always you putting somebody else in front. That's just what a chivalrous thing. Is that the word? Chivalry? Well, it would be if you had not swore three consonants in a row. Yeah. Chivalrous? Yeah. Yeah, that word. Yeah.

Did you go to BYU? Where did you go to school? Well, they had to spell out the letters. Yeah, BYU. I could handle three letters in a row, but chivalrous. See, I said it. That's got a lot of consonants in it. How many other words do you kind of reduce to one consonant? I've never heard that word pronounced that way before. Yeah.

Well, it's still early, but see, I was focused on Valentine's day. I gave my wife a nice card. I got some flowers. I, I, you know, I did all the traditional things. Well, Terry, um, had both of her feet operated on. So she is immobile for now. And, um, she makes me promise. She makes me always promise her. I'm not going to get her anything. Cause she, she thinks she has enough.

But of course I got her something. Yeah. Do you think she really believes that? I don't know, Jason. Oh, don't give me anything. Because if you don't get her anything, my guess is you're not going to get that plate of spaghetti on Saturday night that you're like. I don't know. She is an unusual soul. She really does not like people going to trouble for her. Ordinarily, I would say yes. Do that at your own peril.

Now, if she had two, if she had foot surgery on both feet, that means she's like relying on you for like food, water and just basic necessities. That's kind of a scary scenario to be in.

Well, not just me. I mean, you know how to call 911, don't you? So, I mean, that's what I've told her. I said, look, I mean, I'm going to be in the back. I'm watching a miniseries. I'm going to watch some sports. If you need something, either wait or call 911. You see...

You know, I had foot surgery a long time ago. I'm sure. I know you have like 14 pins. You broke your foot putting up Christmas decorations. No, it was a light bulb. It was a light bulb. Okay. Well, I'm sorry. I need to go correct the 15 million people that I have told it was putting up Christmas decorations.

No, I feel bad for her. I hope she does all right. And you might want to tell her today's Valentine's Day. You mean like a light bulb at the top of the Eiffel Tower? Is that what you were doing? Well, it was in my garage. This was in my garage. It was one of those fluorescent lights, and I was up high on a ladder, and I electrocuted myself. I thought it'd be easier to change the light bulb if I just left the lights on. That way I could tell if I got it in right. Oh, my heaven.

I electrocuted myself, almost killed myself, fell back, landed on my heel bone, the calcaneus I've come to learn, and broke it in six pieces. Okay. I want to stop you right there and make sure I have this right.

At one point, you were actually making decisions on behalf of our country and you left the lights on to change a light. Were you also like in your swimming trunks having just gotten out of the pool? Did you also go under a lightning storm? Did you do everything wrong at once? It was July 5th. It was July 5th. So I was probably wearing shorts. I had shoes on. And yeah, it was pretty bad. Yeah.

It was pretty bad. It was funny because I did it at the time that, well, anyway, it's a long story, but I did it while I was chief of staff to the governor and the commissioner of public safety said,

A guy named Bob Flowers, he called me up. And while I was in the hospital, my wife hadn't even got to the hospital yet because my daughter helped call an ambulance. I was nine years old. I told her, it's okay, we'll take care of it. But I think I was in shock. And so anyway, I get in there like literally in shock. So I go to the hospital. I'm sitting there and the phone starts ringing.

And nobody else is in the room. And I thought, well, I'll answer the phone. And it was the commissioner of public safety, a guy named Bob Flowers. And Bob says, hey, I just have two questions for you. First question is, are you all right? I said, yeah, I'll explain it to him. I said, yeah, I'll be all right. And the second question is, so how many chiefs of staff does it take to change a light bulb? Which I thought was pretty good. Touche, Bob. It was pretty funny. I'm shocked he didn't have a third question.

Would you consider tendering your resignation because the governor cannot have someone on his staff that changes a light bulb with the electricity still on with their hand in a bucket of water during a lightning storm? Yeah, don't don't do that. Don't do that. I knew that you broke your foot because we used to play basketball.

And I remember Tim Scott, you were on our team and Tim never says anything negative about anybody. And he said, I thought you told me he was a college athlete. And I said, Tim, the operative word is was he was a college athlete? Well, and Tim's response was no.

I would like to see the calendar they use to time him in the 40. Not a stopwatch, not even a sundial. The calendar they use to time him in the 40. Okay, so here's my version of this story. So, yes, we were playing in the house gym.

trying to keep fit now I did have this foot injury and I wasn't I could not really move that but you were that desperate to get somebody else on the court and so I agreed and I told everybody including Mick Mulvaney right and I told Mick I said listen nobody like I I can't go up for a rebound like nobody can step on my foot like nobody can if I do that I'll probably break it again so

I'm hobbling up and down the court. We are two minutes into this game. And all of a sudden, what happens? Mick Mulvaney comes at me and steps on my foot. And I was about to kill the guy. He didn't care. He didn't. He was like, I that's how I remember that story is Mick Mulvaney paying absolutely no attention to the plea not to step on my foot because he did.

The same Mick Mulvaney that had the impeachment press conference? Yeah, that went so swimmingly. Yes. Yeah. So that you're putting your health and well-being in the hands of that guy is what I hear you saying. It's the South Carolina delegation that is questionable. I mean, with Mick leading that group, I thought, oh, we'll be OK. But then I learned my lesson pretty quick.

Yeah, well, I'll let you know a little secret. We always suspected that Mick lived in North Carolina. He was like a half a mile from the border. And we literally we went to the governor of North Carolina and asked, will you please annex Mick's house into North Carolina? So he's no longer part of our delegation. But I remember he texted me back and said, we don't want him either.

I still have the text. You know, it's funny when you guys got together and, you know, we're seeing these, I thought between you and Tim Scott and Jeff and, and Mick Mulvey, it seemed like you guys like all knew each other, like really well. It was a tight knit organist, you know, group of guys. But I, then you said, no, I've never met them before. I was really surprised.

I met Tim during orientation. I met Mick once before I met Jeff once before they served together in the state house, but I did not.

I remember, Mick, there was a group, there was a Tea Party group that I went before to try to get their endorsement in the general election, Jason, not the primary, the general election running against a libertarian or a conservative party candidate and a Democrat. So I tried to get the Tea Party's endorsement. And they told me afterwards, you know, we like you. We think you're a good district attorney, but we think there are too many lawyers in politics. Yeah.

And the next time you're thinking, well, the only way to be the district attorney is to be a lawyer. You know that, don't you? But well, I didn't say that. The next words out of her mouth were and this is just a reminder. We're all meeting in Rock Hill Saturday to go door to door from Mick Mulvaney. And I said, ma'am, excuse me. What do you think he is?

He's a lawyer. So you're going door to door for some knucklehead in another district who's a lawyer, but you can't support your own district attorney. So that's how I met Mick. But you put in it was a close race, right? You only won your race by what? What was the...

I don't recall. How many counties did you lose? Precincts did you lose? It was it was it was tighter than expected, right? It was a nail biter up to the very end. It was a nail. You and I did the same thing. We ran against incumbents in the Republican primary, which is a tough thing to do, Jason.

Yeah, it's kind of, you know, all right, here we go. And, you know, incumbents win, what, 98%, 99% of the time. So, yeah. But I think you did all right. I mean, I haven't seen the stats, but I haven't heard you regurgitate them this month as you have every month since I've known you. It was a nail biter. It was a nail biter.

All right, so you got a new book out. You turned out to be quite the author. What is it? Stop, Leave, or Get Out? What was it called again? No, that's the next one. This one is Start, Stay, or Leave, The Art of Decision Making.

And you're a really good person to ask because you, number one, you had to make the decision to run for Congress. How did you make that decision? And you had to make what arguably is arguably a tougher decision, which is whether to leave and when to leave. So those are all decisions you had to make. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Trey Gowdy right after this.

Pull up a chair and join me, Rachel Campos Duffy, and me, former U.S. Congressman Sean Duffy, as we share our perspective on the discussions happening at kitchen tables across America. Download from the kitchen table, the Duffys, at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you download podcasts. Well, your book's doing really well. And, you know, those are tough decisions. And, you know, like I tough decision. You go to McDonald's. You got to figure out if you're getting the Big Mac, the Quarter Pounder cheese and or an apple pie.

Well, you solve that by ordering all of the above. So that has never proven to be the most vexing decision you make on a daily basis. So tell me in the book how you...

I mean, there are big weighty decisions. Should I get married? Should I not get married? Should I, you know, should I take this new job? Should I move to another, you know, tell us the whole premise. Like, no, I'm not kidding. I'm serious. How do you, how did you like say, you know what? I think this is what people need help with. And this is how I do that. This will not surprise you because we've known each other for a long time and we know each other very well. I did not think I had another book in me.

I wrote the book with Timmy and then I wrote a book on asking questions, which comes pretty naturally from the courtroom. I was literally walking out of a but, you know, the publisher and and, you know, my agent said, do you have one more in you? And I was struggling to think of something. I went to the grocery store with Terry and a lady that I had never, to my knowledge, met before asked me a series of questions about.

She thought I was still the district attorney, Jason, even though I'd left a decade before. And I'm not big into like trying to I'm not big at all into stereotypes. However, she would not be your traditional Republican primary voter, if that makes sense. So this was not someone. And she thought I was still the district attorney. And then so then she asked, you know, why did you leave?

And then she said, you didn't want to be a judge, which is very perceptive because most lawyers want to be judges, including me. And so over this like five minute exchange, she kind of asked some of the more seminal questions in my life. Why did you run? Why did you leave the DA's office? What did you do next? Why did you do that? You wanted to be a judge, but now you don't anymore. And at the end, the very last thing she said to me, Jason, was,

"Will you run again?" And I said, "No, ma'am, I'm done." And she said, "I'm sorry to hear that. We thought you were fair." And that is the word I have always coveted. I wanted people to say I was fair. So I got in the truck with my wife and said, "You know what? All of these decisions that I have labored over in life, maybe they turned out okay because someone that I'd never met gave me the word that I coveted the most.

And Terry said, well, then why don't you write a book about how you made those decisions? That's where it sprang from. But I would tell you that we kind of need a go to paradigm. Mine is what's the worst thing that can happen? So and let me turn the tables on you. When you ran for Congress, what was your job when you were running?

I mean, I had been in the governor's office for two years and decided that, you know, I looked at the delegation. I thought, I think I can do this. I think I can do that better than them. And, you know, if I lose, I lose and life continues on. But if I win, hey, what an incredible opportunity. I think I have something to contribute. And I would do things differently than the way the current guy was there and prayed about it, thought about it, talked with my wife and just jumped right in.

You just covered about a third of the book. You had a plan. You just said you thought you'd be okay even if you were unsuccessful. Yeah. You thought you'd be okay. You just cited the advisors in your life. I call them Nathans. Nathan was an advisor to King David. You went through what you look for as you're laboring over a decision. Do you look for peace? Do you look towards logic?

What I want people to kind of focus on is what I did in the courtroom. I started at the end. I wrote the closing argument first, and then I said, how do I want to get there? And so when I write the closing argument for my life, I want people to say he was funny and fair. That's it. None of the rest of it matters. Funny and fair, good husband, good father. That's it.

So if that's what I want at the end, am I making decisions that get me closer to that end? And part of it is, you know, Jason, if I were to ask you at this age in life how you define success, you may answer it differently from the 25-year-old version of Jason Chaffetz. Yeah. No, that's very true. That's very true because –

The perspective, the life experiences, the financial considerations, all of those things, where you are in life with your family. When your kids are the focus of your life and your wife and your marriage, and then you become an empty nester, it's a whole new paradigm. And it's hard to make the transition. You just want to be with those kids all the time.

And it does affect what you do and how you do it and where you do it. And what kind of, you know, how risk averse are you at this point? The older you get, all those things come into play. And you're a modest guy. So you're not the one saying this. I am. I mean, I get asked, what's Jason going to do next? And it's almost always in the political context. Is Jason going to run for the U.S. Senate? Is Jason going to run for governor?

And that's other people's kind of definition of what a successful life for you would be. But it may not be yours. You may view success as having nothing to do with elected office anymore. And what I'm trying to empower people is to kind of define those terms for themselves. You ran to be the chairman of the oversight committee and you were, quote, successful. But had you narrowly lost to someone else?

I don't think you would have been a failure. I think you would have lost. And there's a difference between losing and failing. And I think you should get to define those terms for your own life. Yeah, I think of all the times growing up and still to this day that you, quote unquote, fail or fall down or something doesn't come to fruition the way you had anticipated it.

Or the things that life throws at you that you weren't anticipating on some random Tuesday. And I'm convinced everybody goes through this, right? Everybody goes through hardship and difficult times, whether it be health, emotional, mental health issues, addiction issues. I mean, there's an infinite number of them.

And, you know, that's part of the fun of life, the challenge of life. And I think in part, the purpose of life is to overcome those challenges and take those challenges on. And you're right. I worry sometimes that you go and you go to the grocery store, you're driving down the road and somebody looks at you and you think, oh, you know exactly what they're thinking. And how dare they look at me like that? And they must be mad at me or whatever.

Something must be on my face or something, you know, and you're just like, you have no idea what they're thinking about and no idea. And yet we're quick to judge. We don't, we should take a little bit more time, I think, to kind of anticipate that

Maybe it isn't all about me and, and, and maybe it's not, you know, and that's why, you know, putting a smile on something can change somebody's day just in a heartbeat. You know, you just raised, I wanted to put a chapter in this book to address, um, not just social media, but who we allow the voices we allow into our lives.

And you and I had dinner a thousand times together. And Tim Scott was there and Johnny Ratcliffe was there and there were others there. But there was a pretty small core group that was always there. And we adopted a rule, no negative. You know, Politico writes something negative about one of us. We're not talking about it. But you and I also saw our colleagues on the floor scrolling through their social media posts.

To see what someone they'd never met before thought about them. And I'm sitting there thinking of all the futile things in the world were never as great as you were, whatever your best questioning session was during a congressional hearing. You were never as bad as whatever they thought you were.

may have not done successfully. And plus, these are people that know nothing about you. They don't know your wife, your kids, why you did what you did, how hard you prepared. They don't know any of that. So the voices that you mentioned, Julie, of course, Julie's your top advisor. Anybody who knows you knows that you and Julie are a team.

The wrong person ran for Congress, but y'all are a team. Right. So we know that she's one of your closest advisors. When you and I work together, we didn't do a whole lot, but the other one didn't know, even on down to like preparing for hearings together. But there are also people that were never part of that equation. There were voices we didn't want in our heads.

And we got to figure that out in life. And I feel for young people right now because of all the noise and the voices that come into their heads from people that know nothing about them. Yeah, I think that's so true, especially these young tender ages, the amount of time they spend on social media and whatnot. I mean,

I was so proud of our son. One of the best things he did, he's now a practicing attorney and couldn't be more proud of him. He's a dad making me and Julie grandparents. And I,

But he gave up Facebook and a long time ago, like years ago when Facebook was sort of, hey, everybody's got this. Like I just found myself like wasting time and people making me feel bad about stuff that they don't even know. And I like I was so perceptive and ahead of his time. And it's so true because if you think you can get a high off of that or get any mood change at all,

It's just so out of balance. It's so out of whack. It's so out of what actually matters in life. You just put your finger on something else. So your son went to an elite law school, passed an exceedingly difficult bar. And I've been around him several times. I don't have a clue whether he cares about politics, follows politics. Don't have a clue. But I'll bet you there are people that see his last name.

And just make assumptions. Yeah. That because Jason Chaffetz may believe something that his children do, too. And so kudos to him for saying, you know what? I need voices in my life, but they need to be voices that know something about me. Well, and you touched on something, too, that this whole idea, you know, elective politics, we need good people to run. And a lot of good people don't run because of these very things. Not only the

having to open up your kimono and show every financial bit of your life, but that nothing seems to be out of bounds, and especially things that aren't true. And there has to be an openness and transparency. But I don't know, when I was growing up, there was sort of a respect for people who did that and who held these offices. And that respect has been diminished because people have abused it along the way. But it doesn't mean that everybody and everything and their family

It's free game. I mean, that's just, you know, a bridge too far. And it's sensitive to me. I just, you know, you, you know, people see Gowdy and you're right. They yell or scream or exceedingly pat you on the back. And, you know, there needs to be a little bit more of a balance. And they assume that people connected to us might share our story.

on issues. And oftentimes that's completely wrong. You and I have friends whose kids have charted another path. Yeah. And they should be free to do that. You raised another point. I used to like to do this little quiz when I was back home. There are 435 members of the House. How many can you name? Right, right. And you would be shocked if they could get to 50. Like, shocked. Yeah.

which means I'm not great with math, but it means there's a lot that you've never heard their names before. And yet the body tends to be judged by the what you, you know, the handful of people that you see most frequently. It's not popular to say, but you and I serve with some really, really decent people. They're just not household names. Yeah, because you're right. The 435. Yeah, me. I bet most people couldn't get to 5% of that number.

And you're right, it's the same 2% of the people that you hear about, Dan, on both sides of the aisle.

that uh you know get the time and attention and um because it's kind of extraordinary what they say and how they say it it's kind of absurd what they say um and uh anyway if people just have to find the balance but congratulations on the book it's really I mean this is a great topic for you to take on I'm proud of you for doing it and doing books too it's not just

And the same old thing, which, you know, it's kind of what I expected for me. Can I transition for a moment, though, and talk a little bit about the oversight committee? Because, you know, you were kind of my second or third favorite chairman of the committee. So I thought it'd be good to talk to you about that.

uh yeah i know a lot more about my book than i do the oversight committee but that's never stopped me from talking about something i don't have to know anything about it to talk about it well it's just front and center here now james comer you and i both know he's an exceptionally good guy i mean this guy really good guy salt of the earth nicest guy same you see him on camera you just think all right this is a nice guy from kentucky's wonderful wife i mean

Just a sweet family, and he's really in the thick of it. You and I have been in the thick of it, too. I know he's probably tapped into you to give him advice, but what should people who are kind of listening to our podcast know about oversight that they don't think they already know? I would say a couple of things, JC. Number one, the power of setting realistic expectations. We're already seeing it with the first hearing that both Jimmy and Jamie had.

The media immediately, immediately says the hearings did not meet expectations. I mean, I mean, it's like clockwork. I mean, you and I did a lot of work together. And I can think of maybe a couple of hearings where Politico and The Hill and The Washington Post and New York Times thought we broke even.

It doesn't matter how good the facts are. I mean, there's this headwind. So what I would say is the power of setting realistic expectations on what you can do. And here I'll test this theory. Were you ever asked when you were a member of Congress why such and such was not in jail? Yeah. How many times did I have to remind people to say, you know, in Congress, they don't give us handcuffs.

And so, you know, I can't, you know, it's like I can expose it. I could have a hearing about it. I can't dictate what the witnesses say. I can present some evidence. I can make referrals, but they don't give me handcuffs. And yet people would just like, how come how come they're not in jail? And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And then I feel like I need to repeat myself. And you will continue to have to repeat yourself for some reason.

People just will not embrace the reality that the legislative branch does not indict people or arrest people. And so you put your finger on it. I mean, I think of some of the things that you kind of spent a lot of time on. You spent a ton of time on the border and asylum and the refugee. And you spent a lot of time on Secret Service. But let's say you're Jimmy or Jamie right now. You don't have the Senate and you don't have the White House.

So even within that realm of what you can do, which is legislatively, you're not going to be able to. You may can pass it out of the House with a narrow majority, but you're not getting a vote in the Senate and you're not getting a victory in the Senate and it's not being signed into law. So Jamie and Jim cannot indict. They cannot arrest. They really legislatively can't accomplish a ton of

That leaves illuminating. They can illuminate. They can draw attention to it. But the better you are at drawing attention, the quicker people are going to say, OK, and what are you doing about it? Yeah. And then you're back to square one.

Well, I always felt that the disconnect, though, the part that was very frustrating, it took me a while to kind of figure this out. And now that I've left, it bugs me even more, is the disconnect with the Appropriations Committee. Because I think if you were to go look at the framers and how they set this all up, it's the power of the purse.

You know, I remember we have so many stories when we got to meet with Justice Scully. Do not tell this story. I am warning you. No, I'm not. I am not going over that story again. But it's a different version of this story. Thank God. You have to listen to the previous podcast with Trey Gowdy to hear that story. But...

But no, the point was, I remember the justice saying, because I asked a question about No Child Left Behind and how do we fight against this? And the simple answer that the justice said was,

Look, don't fund it. If you don't fund it, then guys like me aren't going to, you know, go and say that the feds have control over, say, education. So that's the point is if you don't use the power of the purse, if you don't take and make the connection between what's going on in oversight and affect change to the power of the purse, I mean...

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, and this is in your heart and soul, it's in your DNA. It's got to be the most well-oiled machine, fair, balanced, all of that. But when there's a problem, maybe you have to adjust the funding so they can't do certain things. They just got a massive increase of funding. Like nothing happened to them. There's no consequence to their errant ways on certain things.

You put your finger. What Jason's referring to is a dinner we had with the late Justice Scalia and where we were both. We all got to ask a question. And Jason and I kind of went the same direction, which is whether or not because the courts are increasingly looked to to referee the fights. I mean, with the Affordable Care Act, it was the court that folks wanted to strike down the Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act with immigration. It's the courts they look to.

And Scalia, his position was you have all the tools you need to fight this fight. You just won't use them. I remember having a really hard time getting documents from the State Department, like a really, really hard time. Right. And the easy, easy response is.

We're going to cut your money. We are the legislative branch and we are going to cut your money if you do not give us what we are asking for. But you know what happened, Jason? It was the opposite. They went to some of our colleagues and said, we can't give you the documents because we are so backlogged with requests for documents. They wound up getting more money to, quote, deal with document requests. So they were incented.

to drag their feet and delay and obfuscate. That is so backwards. Yeah. What was that word? Obfuscate? Obfuscate, I think. Don't try it. You had enough trouble with chivalry earlier in the podcast. Do not try that. Chivalrous. Chivalrous. Chivalrous. Did I say it right? Oh, gosh. I'm going to send you hooked on phonics for a minute.

In Utah, there was a thing, it was a radio station back then that had this great...

kind of gig that going for a while they'd call it eutonics because of how how Utahns say certain words but I deviate it's pretty funny it was a pretty funny spit um but on that serious point yeah I mean that's the problem so the oversight committee they can't illuminate they can demand documents and I think the precedent that the last administration or the last

Nancy Pelosi, the last 117th Congress set, they really should be providing these documents. And particularly, I'm fascinated when they issue a subpoena and it's not for attendance. I mean, I tried to get Brian Pagliano, the IT person who worked at the State Department for Hillary Clinton, two subpoenas I issued on this person. Twice he didn't even show up.

made the recommendation or made the referral to the Department of Justice to prosecute nothing. They sat on that for months and months and months and months. But hey, like him or hate him, you know, when it was Steve Bannon who didn't show up, boy, what was it, 10 days later, they enforced that subpoena? I mean, come on. It'll be interesting to see when, you know, Congressman Jordan or it's a Congressman Bannon

you know, who's issuing this subpoena, whether or not they actually get there. They won't. And Jimmy, you know, has learned. Jimmy is a quicker learner than I was. Jimmy will not wait through all of these requests to what can you narrow the scope? Can you tell us exactly what you're looking for? He's not going to play that game.

But if he sends a contempt of Congress referral, it goes to the U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia. So it's not going to be enforced, which brings us back to your original point. Do you have weapons that are not dependent upon the other branches? And you do. But look, you and I didn't serve in the 40s, 50s, 60s. I get the feeling that branch integrity mattered a little more back then that

You know, look, we may be Republicans and Democrats, but by golly, we're both members of Congress. And you better give us what we want because it's a branch issue. But when when President Obama and I'm sure President Trump did the exact same thing. But when President Obama said, I've got a pen and a phone and I'll do it with or without you. They stood and cheered, Jason. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that told me about that. The executive branch said.

is supremely important and the legislature branch has become the weakest of the three branches. I agree. Wholeheartedly agree. You're listening to Jason in the house. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Trey Gowdy right after this. The other bit of advice when I did talk to chairman Comer and I, you know, and to some other members who are now on the committee that haven't been there previously. And I,

I said to him, I think you need to shoot lower rather than higher. And they looked at me kind of oddly and raised an eyebrow. And I said, no, all too often, I think everybody wants to see, you know, Hunter Biden right there. They want to see a cabinet secretary there. Oftentimes, it's the people two, three, four levels down that are actually making these decisions. They aren't professionals at testifying in Congress. Think of Secretary Mayorkas.

Do you think he's making all those decisions? No, there's, there's probably some white house people making those decisions and there are underlying people that are actually implementing these that we need to figure out. All right. Who directed you to do that? So don't try to go for the marquee person on the first hearing, have the transcribed interviews or the, um, depositions done well in advance and do that first. Don't be out there trying to get everything done by March.

I am sure that Mike Turner and Jimmy Jordan and Jamie Comer and others are going to, you know, I'd love to have a chance to do it all over again. Because you learn, you learn that it is nothing but a delay. So you send the subpoena or the war deposition. Of course, they're going to say, well, let's make it a transcribed interview. You need the documents or else the deposition or the transcribed witness interview is not very fulsome.

So the deadlines would be much tighter. And my guess is that's what they're going to do. And then the issues will be joined quicker because they're either not going to show or they're not going to give you the documents. And then you've got to go to the appropriators, as you said, because you're not going to get contempt. Trust me, the Biden administration is not going to prosecute itself for contempt of Congress. There's not going to.

So I think the timelines will be shrunk. They'll move quicker. The expectations, though, we're going to – I mean, I was in court for too long and saw too many lawyers promise an opening statement, all of these things. And so that's where the expectations get set. And if you do anything less than that, there's anger and disappointment. Right.

So, I mean, look, the Durham probe is a perfect example. How many times did you and I hear people are definitely going to jail with the Durham probe? We're going to find out. This is going to be the final definitive accounting.

I mean, is that how you would describe it now that it's come to an end? It did not match our expectations. Yeah, this is this is one of the challenges. Look, I think the people the right people are in the right place to do this. The budgets are appropriate, but it's going to be fascinating to see it play out. But what was that? You said this multiple times, but help me here.

The reporters in town, they never met a... Go ahead. Finish this. They never met a...

a Democrat investigation that should end or a Republican investigation that should begin yeah that's it's so true I've actually used that and I don't know how many speeches and sometimes occasionally I'll I'll credit you but sometimes I just let it go um it is true it's a hundred percent true Jason it is true it's one of the biggest frustrations I really naively thought

that if I provided the documents, provided the story, laid out the case, that it would get fairly reported. And that that illumination, as we were talking about, would inform the public, other members, everybody else, and that would help solve the problem. And it used to be a time in this country where...

Almost that humiliation or exposure would cause somebody to change the course, but not now. In general, no. I've got another little one I like to do, too. I like to encourage people to go scour the archives of Politico and let me know if you find a negative story about Adam Schiff or a positive story about Devin Nunes. Okay.

I mean, so these are people that are supposed to, like, speak truth to power and democracy dies in darkness and whatever other self-congratulatory platitudes they bestow upon themselves. And daggum Adam Schiff, I mean, I'll bet you his comms department is embarrassed at the political coverage.

I mean, I bet they're sitting there thinking, oh, my gosh, you might want to dial that back a little bit. No, he's not quite as great as you'll think he is. And there's Devin, who if there was ever something positive written about Devin Nunes in Politico, I don't recall what it was. You know what also bothered me? Do you remember the Senate over in the Senate, the guy who's like in charge of security for the Senate Intel Committee? Yeah.

He actually went to jail. First of all, I'm glad they prosecuted that. But the guy was sleeping with reporters. And it ends up that there was some classified material moving out the door. It's like the only time I've ever heard somebody actually getting prosecuted. Barely a peep in the news. Barely. Hang on a second. I hate to be cynical, but you're not suggesting that the media grades itself on a different curve, are you? Well...

I may be going that direction. Oh, my heavens. Who would have guessed that? Having said that, there are a couple of Politico reporters that I think really do make an effort to be fair.

But I'm only thinking two. Well, I've told this story and then we got to wrap up here. But I've told this story a few times. But there was a New York Times reporter who I thought was giving us a fair shake that he was trying to get the story right. So I gave him something. I gave him something before anybody else. And I'm sitting there watching the clock go by and there was no story.

And finally called him back, said, what's up? Why? I mean, this is this is like breaking news. Big story. Why isn't this out there? And he said, my editors killed it. It's too negative on Hillary Clinton. And it was the truth. It was the facts. It did get reported.

But not with the same... It had to be demoralizing to him. And I'm just thinking to myself, well, at some point, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and say, hey, congratulations, self, I made it to the highest...

biggest publication. But you know what? New York Times is not the biggest publication anymore. And I think that's why. I think they could have continued to maintain that if they actually gave it a fair and honest dealing, but they didn't and they wouldn't. And that's why FoxNews.com is far bigger than the New York Times online. And that is the future of media. And it's why Fox, I think, does so well. But anyway.

I'll tell you one story in conclusion. Sure. There was a New York Times reporter. He's pretty well known. He's really broken some pretty big stories and he tried to do it the right way. I had to give a speech in Virginia. He rented a car and drove me to Virginia. So the train was not working or something like that. So, yeah.

He went to Virginia, listened to me speak. So we rode there and rode back. He then came to my home district. All the things that you hope for reporters to do. And he was writing, you know, a piece like they would have done when you were the oversight chair. They were writing a piece. And what he found out was this guy's not nearly as crazy as my editors led me to believe he is. The story never ran. Never ran. So...

The reason it didn't run is for the very thing I cited. It wasn't what his bosses thought he was going to get. So rather than run with what really was, and I'll say this, Rolling Stone and GQ, which are not conservative publications, they are not conservative publications. But their reporters came and did the same thing.

And it turns out, you know, the guy doesn't walk around dressed like Samuel Adams and he doesn't have a tinfoil hat on. And they ran their stories. They ran it. They said, look, I don't like his politics, but he's not crazy. New York Times never did. Never ran the story. So don't give me all this democracy dies in darkness. All the news is fit to print.

We'll end with a quiz. Can you tell me the last Republican nominee for president endorsed by The New York Times? Ooh, I don't know. I'm going to guess Nixon. And if you had only guessed Dwight David Eisenhower, you would be correct. Wow. You and I were not born the last time The New York Times. So Ronald Reagan wins what? Every state but one. Is that right? Every state but Minnesota? Yeah, except Minnesota.

But he can't get the editorial board of the New York Times. Yeah. And you know what? I don't even mind the editorial saying, hey, we just disagree because they were, you know, way out there on the left as liberals. But news, if you're going to give a straight accounting of the news and just report, Trey Gowdy is the chairman of the Oversight Committee. He's chairing the Benghazi, you know, committee, select committee. What? Why not do that story? It's like.

Anyway, I've had the same experiences. It is one of, and you and I have talked about this multiple times, one of the biggest disappointments. But I found out something new today from you. First of all, congratulations on the book, right? Start, stay, or leave. You just go anywhere you get books and type in Dre Gowdy and you'll see it. But it's Valentine's Day and you got to take care of that sweet wife of yours because you know what?

She's been taking care of you, well, I don't know, since the moment you guys met. So I hope you do something nice and sweet for her. Well, I think we began with this, but it's worthy of me ending with it too.

it is more blessed than give to give than to receive and I want her to be blessed you don't want to take away that that blessing from her that's just the sweetness of the gouty heart I got her something it came about two hours ago it's a it's a Vokey 60 degree low balance wedge

Does she play golf? No, she doesn't. But until she learns to play golf, it will be in my golf bag. You're going to warm it up for her? When she learns, it's waiting on her. That's an expensive gift. No doubt. And no doubt she wants you to have that, Trey. She would want me to be happy. You've met her. She's the sweetest person on the face of the earth. She would want me to be happy.

Yes. I am giving her a gift. I'm not going in there and talking to her. That is a gift. Well, congratulations, Terry. A day of peace and harmony as Trey tries out your new wedge. That'll be great. And here, let me tell you what I hope Julie Chaffetz gets for Valentine's Day. I hope that you were on your way to the airport.

Trey, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. I do appreciate it. One of my favorite people in the world. How you got a podcast on Fox, I will never know. But until they figure out what they've done, congratulations on all your success. I mean, you've written like eight books. Well, you hadn't written them, but you've had people write like eight books. Have you had a chance to read any of your books yet? No.

I told Trey Gowdy, I said, you know, the hard part is just, you know, you got, if you do the audio book, it's a long time to do that. You essentially have to read through it three times in a row to get it right. And, uh, and Trey said to me, yeah, uh, well, at least you've read it once.

I do have a new book coming out. I haven't released the name of it or anything else, but it's coming out in... Oh, I know the name of it. Well, you're not supposed to say if you do. My Life in Pictures by Jason Chaffetz. No, no, no, no. Well...

We'll talk about my book later. What I Have in Common with Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson by Jason Chaffetz. You know, the internet only has so much space. So thanks, Trey Gowdy. Appreciate you joining me. Oh, JC, take care of yourself, man. All right.

Thanks again. As everybody can figure out, we recorded this portion on Valentine's Day, even though it's airing a little bit later. So hope you have a wonderful holiday and, you know, good time with your beloved. You know, we joke and laugh and have a lot of fun with Trey along the way. He's a good friend. I've known him for a long time. But, yeah.

I wish him nothing but the best in everything he does, and especially with his new book, Start, Stay or Leave. Undoubtedly a great book. He's had great success in the past with his books, and obviously people all around the country are getting it because it's rocking off the charts.

I want to ask people to rate this. If you could please rate this podcast, I'd really appreciate it. I also want to remind people that you can listen ad-free with the Fox News Podcast plus a subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. I appreciate you listening. Again, rate it, review it, and subscribe to our podcast channel.

And we'll be back with more guests and more fun next week. So stay with us. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and this has been Jason in the House. Hey, it's Clay Travis. Join me for Outkick the show as we dive deep into a mix of topics. New episodes available Monday to Friday on your favorite podcast platform and watch directly on Outkick.com forward slash watch.