A Jason In The House Classic: Elizabeth Smart On The Fight Against Human Trafficking
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It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. Well, thanks for listening to the Jason in the House podcast. I thought this was really good, very appropriate with the July 4th celebrations that are happening in your hometown, across the country. It's just one of the best, one of my favorite times of the year.

But I thought this week would be very appropriate to hear and replay an interview that I did with Elizabeth Smart. If you recall, Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped, and we didn't know where she was. In fact, many people thought she was dead, that she had been – something dramatic had happened to her, and then all of a sudden –

She reappeared. She escaped her captors. And her story, her journey, her message about perseverance and personal belief and overcoming obstacles and the miracle that happened when Elizabeth Smart was able to escape her kidnappers is truly remarkable. It's a good thing. It's a hard story.

But it ends so well that I thought for this Fourth of July weekend, what a great and inspirational way to hear in her own voice a conversation I had with Elizabeth Smart. Hi, everybody. It's Brian Kilmeade. I want you to join me weekdays at 9 a.m. East as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers. And of course, what you think. Listen live or get the podcast now at Brian Kilmeade show dot com.

Time to call one of my heroes. Elizabeth Smart survived something when she was kidnapped at age 14 and went through this unbelievable process over eight, nine months of surviving. And I remember when this happened, living in Utah, we all, you know, there came a point as time went on, you know, where's Elizabeth? Where's Elizabeth?

And you worry that she was potentially killed. And I remember there was such a call for people to go out that we were south about 30 minutes drive from where Elizabeth Smart ultimately was found. But we would go up in the hills during the day, looking, seeing, calling out her name. It was a very emotional time. And so let's dial up.

Elizabeth Smart and Brett Tolman, who was the U.S. attorney, served in the United States Senate Judiciary Committee, became the U.S. attorney. And this case fell into his lap and he knows a lot about it. There was this unbelievable, amazing moment in March of 2003 when

Where they found Elizabeth smart. I mean, it still gives me chills. I still like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that she's alive and here. And it was just unbelievable that that she was OK. And I remember the same same, you know, my family, we we were searching, we were looking, we had friends.

I had daughters that were similar in age, and I have a sister who was abducted in college. And so it hit our family as well, and I think everybody was able to relate because it was, I think, your worst fear. Now, Elizabeth, you were just 14 years old, but to the extent you can, can you share with people what happened and what you went through?

Yeah, of course. I mean, as you mentioned, I grew up, spent my whole life here in Utah. And I would say we were a pretty typical family. I mean, I don't feel like there was really anything that made us stand out more than any other. I feel like I lived a very sheltered life. We were very close-knit. And so the thought of...

something bad, I mean, truly bad ever happening to me or anyone in my family for that matter, just seemed so, so far from the realm of possibility. It just, it didn't seem like it could happen. I mean, we lived in a nice neighborhood. We lived in a nice home. Um, it just seemed like life would just continue on the way it always had. And so the night that I was kidnapped,

I mean, it of course shocked everyone, me more than everyone probably, because it was just something that was so unexpected, something that just we never imagined could even happen, could even be a possibility.

And I mean, the night before I was kidnapped, I went to bed. Like every other night, I shared a room with my younger sister. I shared a bed, in fact, with my younger sister. And I remember just waking up to a man's voice saying, I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. And really, initially, I didn't think it could be real. I mean, I don't think any of us go to bed with the expectation of being woken up.

by a stranger holding a knife on our neck and telling them to go with them. And it didn't feel like I had a choice. So I did what I was told to do. I got up and I went with this man and he took me up into the mountains behind my home where he told me I was now going to become his wife. He raped me. He chained me up. And then the next nine months, I mean, was just...

a continuation of abuse and raping. Yeah, it was a nightmare.

Uh, but, and during those nine months, I mean, I was, uh, taken to Southern California for the winter because, well, quite frankly, we wouldn't have survived staying in Northern Utah for a winter outside. And so we went to Southern California. He actually made multiple attempts to kidnap other young girls, but I mean, thank goodness he never was successful. And, uh, then he, uh,

It was actually me. I was able to convince him to return to Salt Lake because I felt like that was my best chance to be rescued. I mean, no one had found me in Salt Lake beforehand. Before he had taken me to California, no one had found me in Southern California. And I felt like if we went somewhere else, the chances of me being rescued, of getting back to my family would just decrease more and more. So...

miraculously was able to convince Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee to return back to Salt Lake. And we hitchhiked back and we finally made it and we were walking up State Street in Salt Lake, which for those of you who don't know, it's a pretty big street. I'd say it's pretty heavily trafficked. And all of a sudden, just police car after what felt like police car,

pulled up alongside of us and they all jumped out and they came over and started questioning my captors. And initially I didn't, I didn't answer them right off the bat. Initially, I didn't say that I was Elizabeth smart. And I think it's just important to point out right here because probably one of the most asked questions I've gotten is, you know, why didn't you just immediately scream? Why

And it's not that I ever enjoyed being kidnapped. It's not that I ever didn't want to be rescued. I always wanted to be rescued. I mean, being kidnapped was not a vacation. It was not fun. So I always wanted that. But for nine months, I mean, nine months in a 14, 15-year-old kid's life, that's pretty significant. That's a pretty long time. And I'd say...

I don't know. I mean, puberty is not exactly a pleasant time in life anyway. So it's already at a difficult time in life. But for nine months, you know, I had been abused and I'd been raped and no one had been there to protect me. So believing that someone else could protect me, it was hard. I didn't know if it was possible. I mean, I'd never had any interaction with the police.

prior to being kidnapped. So I didn't know how far they really could protect me. I didn't know what they were capable of, but I certainly knew what my captors were capable of. And they were capable of...

A lot. So no, initially I didn't admit who I was and it really wasn't until one of the officers separated me a little bit and started speaking to me and just saying, you know, there's a girl she's been missing now for nine months. Her family's never given up hope. They've never stopped searching for her. You know, they love her. They want her to come home. Aren't you ready to go home? And it was really only then.

that I was finally able to admit who I was and that's how I was rescued. You know, I get that question a lot too, Elizabeth, you know, why didn't she, um, it was, um, an effort by two people who are acting evil and

But they're intelligent and they knew very much how to break down, you know, a young woman and her expectations. And it was a process. You know, there were times where they they interacted with people. And if if they, you know, survive that interaction, like the police officer in the library, for example, early on when when she was kidnapped, if if they got through that and they weren't exposed, you know,

And Brian David Mitchell would use that to re-indoctrinate Elizabeth and to let her know, see, God wants you to be with us and things like that. And that's really the challenge when you're in it. And I think Elizabeth doesn't give herself enough credit when she says that she convinced Brian David Mitchell miraculously to come back to Utah. This was brilliant and amazing.

Unbelievable that she was able to convince him and did so using his own logic and his own religious zealousness and against him and to convince him to come back to Utah, where ultimately she knew she had a far better chance of being saved.

And so what was it that you were telling him? What was that, Elizabeth, that I'm not sure where in California, and you may not have known where in California you were, but what was the argument or what was the discussion or what were the, what were you saying to him that ultimately led him to think that, hey, yeah, this is what I should do? Well, we were in Lakeside, California. So an hour by

like public transport from outside of San Diego. I mean, I definitely remember where we were. I mean, where I was held captive at the time, it literally looked like the fire swamp out of Princess Bride. That's what it looked like. And yeah, I mean, I think first you have to almost even take it just a little step back further because every time he thought of something new that he wanted to do to me,

whether it was withholding food or finding some new way to rape me or something like that, he would always frame it as, you know, God needs you to experience this because you need to know that you're not better than anyone else. And Christ himself descended below all things so that he could rise above all things. And although you're not Christ and you're nowhere near Christ, in fact, you're very far from Christ, um,

it's important that you recognize that in yourself as well, which is why you need to experience these things. I mean, for instance, he'd say this to me, I didn't want to kidnap you. I would never just kidnap an innocent young girl, but God chose you. And I could not deny God's commandment.

And so he would always, I mean, that's how he would frame each new atrocity that he would perform against me. And that had gone on for nine months. So I listened to it for a very, very long time.

I think he was always waiting for the day when I would fully accept him, when I would fully accept this, this role, this facade that he constantly paraded around of being a prophet of God, of my abduction actually being like a rescuing and a miracle. And so, uh,

And so I...

thought about how he justified what he did and I just thought well if it can work for him I mean nobody needs to tell me it's wrong I already know it's wrong but if it can work for him all this time maybe it can work for me so I just faced my captor and I said you know I know I am sinful and wicked and God would never inspire me with anything but I just have this feeling like

like we should return to Salt Lake. And I just know I'm terrible and I'm sinful and wicked. And I just, but this feeling, it just won't leave me alone.

do you think you could ask God? I know he would answer you. I know he would tell you if we're supposed to return to Salt Lake because you're his prophet and you're his servant. And I just, I just know he'll answer you. And I think in that moment, um, Brian Mitchell felt like that was me really accepting him willingly. That was me, um, buying into this whole persona that he created, um,

And so I think that was ultimately kind of what made him feel like, oh, she accepts me. I think I will.

Like, yeah, we can go back to Salt Lake because, you know, it's just tightening my control over her. And now, you know, not only can I do whatever I want to her, but she will be a willing participant in whatever I say I want to do with her. So he didn't act alone. There was somebody by his side the whole time.

He's in jail now. He's going to be there for the rest of his life, as best I can tell. And Brett, you know more about that than anybody. He has multiple life sentences, and there's no parole in the federal system. So, and thank you for your good work in prosecuting that case. Does that give you comfort? And I want to contrast that to the one at Barzee who's not incarcerated at this point. And how does that make you feel?

Uh, well, I am of course very happy that he is in the federal prison, that he will never get out because I think if he did get out, he would come back after me and not only just me, but I think he would also come back after my children. Um, cause I'm a mother now and I have three small children, um, that are not his, um,

just to be clear but I think that he would come back after me so I am very happy to know that he will never get out Wanda Barzee she is out and yes I

I am disappointed. I feel like she was just as much guilty as he was, especially because she was a woman. I mean, she had six children of her own and I was younger than her youngest child that she gave birth to. And she not only stepped aside and allowed this to happen, but she encouraged it to happen. And she would get upset and angry with me when I wouldn't do exactly what Brianne

Brian Mitchell said or what she said. So there is a part of me that feels like,

She shouldn't be out, but I think most victims would agree. And I didn't come up with this. Someone said this to me. We don't always have a justice system. We just have a legal system. And I feel like that is very accurate. And I guess I have to take the wins that I do get because so many victims, they never see their perpetrators, their

They never see them in court. They never see any kind of sentencing coming down on them. I mean, I would say the vast majority of perpetrators are still walking free. So although I do feel like Wanda Barzee still deserves to be in prison, I will take what I can get. And at least everyone knows that she's a predator and she will never be able to wipe that off her record.

And Brett, I think there are a lot of people that feel like that. You know, Brett, they want to see justice. And I've never heard it framed like that, Elizabeth. But I think you're right. There's a difference between a legal system and a justice system. And I think there's that perception out there. And it's probably a reason why a lot of good people don't come forward, whether it's, you know, a sexual crime or a

or an assault or it could be a host of things because they're worried that the justice system won't actually fulfill its mission. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. You know, a couple of things. I really like hearing what you said, Elizabeth, and I know there's been a lot of growth on your part to get to that point because I, you know, look back fondly at all of our meetings and preparation in the case and,

Our discussions and I remember one of the first questions Elizabeth asked me was whether or not the death penalty was available for both of them. And that tells you, you know, the impact, just the way in which these two evil people died.

and hurt another. And, and it, at the time I know, you know, we can't all, we can't relate with all of that, but what Elizabeth is saying now about understanding that a lot of victims don't have any, you know, form of justice is what happened to my sister who was kidnapped and raped in college. And we never found the perpetrators and they were never brought to any sort of justice with respect to Wanda Barzee.

Those were tough, tough calls and tough issues. But she had a plea deal. An offer was made to her in exchange for her cooperation against Brian David Mitchell. She did receive a 15 year sentence. But what happened and why she got out even earlier, sooner than that.

is and Elizabeth and I disagreed with this and we were very vocal about it but they gave her credit for time where she was in the mental institution and time and where she was in state custody they gave credit for that time against that 15 years which allowed her to actually get out a lot sooner and and so it's a

It's frustrating and aggravating because there's still a need for her to be – punishment cannot be long enough with these two. But hopefully she is being supervised and hopefully that, like Elizabeth said, everyone's aware of what she is. And we just pray that there are no other victims. And I think her being away from Brian David Mitchell –

helps, you know, give us an opportunity as a community that she won't, you know, reoffend or do something else to some other innocent victim. But that's the challenge of the justice system, for sure. No, no. Look, that's what's infuriating to a guy like me who's got a wife. I got a couple of daughters. I got grandkids. And look, I'm watching this from afar. You know, I just...

you know, an American doing the right thing. And then I see this horrific case. I can't think of anything more vile and aggressive and continuous. And I don't understand why there's not, you know, a death penalty or something as close to that as possible. I guess I personally for it's worth nothing compared to what Elizabeth feels like, but at least we know he's in prison for the rest of his life.

But your story, Elizabeth, is so amazing because not only that moment, that exuberation of just knowing that you're alive, because so many people thought that you weren't. And then to not only see that, but the strength that you've given by sharing

You're married. You've got kids. You talk about this and now you're advocating. And for everybody that's listening across the country and we get people across the world that listen to this, you have such a unique position. And I just want to turn the microphone over to you and

I don't know what to ask you particularly. What do you want these people to know? Because they may not have had the severity or the length of abuse and abduction that you did, but it's like the most devastating thing in their life. And so what do you tell those people who have gone through this? What can they do to prevent it? And what can they do if they have gone through it? Well, the first thing is that...

you need to be educated because how can you know how to respond? How can you know what you're looking at if you don't actually know what you're looking at or how to respond? I mean, I think that's a place that we can all start at and, you know, begin having conversations with your children and not just have

it one time and be like, right, I've had that conversation, check it off my list, like on to next thing. Like have this be a continuing conversation. I mean, talk about safety address, you know, what is appropriate? What is not appropriate? What do you do when you feel scared? Who do you turn to? Who are the safe people in your life?

Those kinds of things. Not being afraid to reach out to help and maybe that help is the police calling the police when you think you see something that is wrong. I mean, that is what they're there for.

and utilizing the resources that we already have because I have been to all 50 states in America and I've been up to a number of places up in Canada. And I know we have some incredible, incredible people who are dedicating their life to helping victims, to helping survivors, to helping spread education and awareness and

And, um, and our law enforcement, we have amazing people in law enforcement who, you know, are willing to put their lives literally on the line to, to help, um,

So we have some pretty incredible resources. Yes, we can always do better. Yes, there should always be more, but we already have some great resources. Let's start using them. Let's become educated. Let's become aware of what's in our area, what's around us. How can we help? How can we support? And then things that I personally care very, very much about. I have my own nonprofit, the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I know, so original.

But we have a campaign that we run throughout November and the beginning of December, and it's called the We Believe You campaign. And it's because the number one comment that I get from victims is nobody believes me. And that's

Honestly, how you respond to a victim, to a survivor when they first disclose their abuse to you honestly can set the trajectory for their healing and recovery or

Or for keeping it bottled inside and end up ultimately having it be a path of self-destruction. So the first thing that everyone, that we all should do, is if a victim comes forward and discloses their abuse to you, believe them. There are always going to be people out there that say, well, what about those victims that lie? Well, it's such a small, small percentage of victims.

individuals who would actually lie about this and their lies always come to the surface so you're always going to be better off even if this person is lying initially to believe them i mean because it really it really can set whether that person goes on to a healthy life or not

So that is the first thing that I would stress people to do. The second thing is don't immediately just jump in with questioning and be like, well, you know, why didn't you do this or why didn't you do that? Never, never, never start a question with the words, why didn't you? And I know this from experience because for years when people would ask me questions like, why didn't you run? Why didn't you scream?

I didn't understand, but I would just feel so defensive all of a sudden. And it took me a while to realize it wasn't because I heard this person's natural curiosity coming through. What I ultimately was hearing was you should have run. You should have screamed. You should have done more. Somehow, this is your fault that you were kidnapped for so long. You didn't do enough. You didn't fight hard enough.

And let's just be grateful that this survivor is still alive because so many survivors do all the right things and they're killed. So it's a miracle that this survivor is still alive. Let's, let's believe them. Let's support them. Let's help them. Not let's not interrogate them and question them. We can let the professionals do that.

You know, there are forensic interviewers. That's their job. And they are trained and they're trauma informed and they know the correct way to go about questioning things.

So just believe them, support them, treat them like a human being. Don't amidst all of the trauma that they are sharing with you, don't forget just to treat them like a friend. Don't just forget to be like, Hey, do you want to go to the movies? Or do you want to go on a hike with me? Because they need that positive interaction in their life as well. I think probably one of the number one reasons why I am the way I am today is

is because people believed in me and because I had support and I didn't have just support of my parents and family, but I had the support of my community, of my church, of my friends, of honestly, I felt like the country supported me and believed me. And I,

I feel like that did more for my healing than quite possibly anything else. That's very true. And I'm glad you feel the support and love of the country. I just wish and I hope that while your case is so well known and your willingness to get out and talk about it candidly, it can help countless others. I just hope those other victims...

Also feel that love and that support that they may not get. And Brett, I want you to address that, that part about, you know, getting the help and the support and believing them. And, you know, as a prosecutor, what's your perspective of all that?

You know, I love listening to Elizabeth. She's so passionate and she speaks from such experience and I could just listen, you know, and we we have we've worked together on various projects and issues. And even just recently, she's helping other victims of sex trafficking or human trafficking and and

We're trying to help another woman who has suffered, you know, horrific abuses. And so I love hearing about how, you know, this is a woman who did not let what happened to her define her in a negative way, but has channeled that and

I think she's extraordinary and unusual in that she has, she has strength. And I always say to people when they ask me about her, I always say she's one of the most powerful women I've known in my life. And I have, you know, great powerful women around me, but she's, she's one of the most. And I have that respect for her because I see, and I watch her every day doing that. I, I,

I hope people will listen to her. I hope law enforcement will listen to her. You know, from a prosecutor's perspective, I was mortified when I was U.S. attorney that this case, her case, you know, the kidnappings that had captivated the nation was languishing in the state system. And he had been deemed to have been incompetent to stand trial. And it was just, you know...

it was awful. And I was proud to team up with Dr. Wellner out of New York and expend, uh, you know, a lot of resources to show that, um,

This guy was a master manipulator. There are a lot of people that don't have that kind of resource or they have prosecutors that are buried with these kinds of cases. We don't have a lot of cases like that in the federal system. And so I was able to bring the full resources and massive effort of the federal government against these two. What I would like to see is

We need to be able to not, you know, we hear all this defund the police and all of that and violent crime and sexual crimes are, you know, going up in major cities across the country. What we need is to be able to channel resources and to refine what our law enforcement officers are doing so that and our prosecutors so that they can focus on these most serious cases and that they're using their resources for that.

That's one side. And on the other side, we do need, you know, mental health experts and victim advocates. And we need a lot of changes in our laws and in our system so that as Elizabeth outlined,

We start to have a different approach to these types of cases so that more victims are willing to come forward, that there's a conversation and a dialogue that occurs that empowers them or at least enables them to have the strength to be able to speak.

to get through not only the justice system, but to get through this horrific thing that occurs in their lives. So we have a long way to go, but the only way we're going to do it is by listening to people like Elizabeth. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation right after this.

Now there's Elizabeth smart.com very aptly named and easy to spell. So you can go there to the Elizabeth smart.com. Uh, you've, you've written, uh, two books, uh, where there's hope. Um, and then also my story, which you did with Chris Stewart, who happens to be the Congressman from Utah in sharing your stories. But Elizabeth, there are men out there that haven't

been the bad guys and haven't experienced this, but they want to help. There are women out there that haven't necessarily been victims, but they want to help. What do you say to all the people who want to help? They want to be part of the solution. They want to be empowered to do something. What should they be looking for? What should they be doing?

Well, first of all, I mean, it's kind of repeating myself a little bit, but I don't mind doing that because I think I do that all day, every day anyway. But I mean, it is becoming educated on these topics, knowing what to look for, you know, what what stands out. Oh, is that does that seem like a no, potentially like a goal?

17, 18, 19 year old girl who should probably be in control of her own, you know, IDs and documents. And yet someone else is handling it for her. That seems a little bit odd. Maybe I should call in or this just, I'm getting a strange feeling from this couple. I mean, I,

this girl, this woman or girl, you know, she is not talking like this man or whoever she's with is not allowing her to talk. Even when questions are directed towards her, that seems a little bit strange. Maybe I should look into that or maybe I should contact someone who can question her or find out more about why she's not speaking for herself. You know,

If you're seeing markings on her body or bruises or if there's a troublemaking eye contact with

with you. I mean, these are small things and there's a whole host of other things that you can look at. These are just a few things, a few smaller things that you can watch for that are red flags. They don't always 100% mean that that person's being abused or that person's being trafficked, but they're just good things to look for. So becoming educated, make sure you are educating those that are around you, having those conversations within your own homes, make sure that they're

ongoing and that they're healthy. I mean, for instance, the end of last year, so my oldest daughter, she's in first grade now, but she just finished kindergarten last May. And towards the end of the school year, which I felt like I was doing a pretty good job about talking to her about what was safe and what she should do or asking her what she thought she should do.

if she ever felt scared or worried. And I guess it had been a little bit since I'd last spoken to her about it, but it certainly was not a new conversation I had with her. But I asked her and I said, oh, what do you think you should do if someone ever hits you? Or what should you do if someone scares you? Or what should you do if someone tries touching you?

And she was like, I should go tell my teacher. And I was like, okay. I was like, that's, you know, that's good. I was like, but what else? Do you think it's okay to fight back? Do you think it's okay to protect yourself, to hit back or to bite or scream or scratch? Do you think that's okay? And she kind of giggled at me and then she was just like, no, no.

That was not, that's not okay. And I said, well, why isn't it okay? And she said, well, because then I'll lose the star next to my name in class. And I don't want to lose the star next to my name. And I was like, I was like, sweetheart, if someone is hurting you and your teacher's not around and it's just you, and there's not someone you can turn to for help,

it's okay. I want you to fight back and I want you to scream and I want you to yell. And I want you to, you know, use your strong hands and your strong arms and you kick and you fight and you punch. And you know, if you get in trouble, if your teacher gets you in trouble, I mean, or she wants, you know, you to be punished, I will come to the school. I will come and talk to them and I will tell them that I told you to do that. And if you're still in trouble, if you get suspended,

we'll go to the beach. We'll go to Disneyland. Like I want you to be safe first and foremost. And I will, I am in your corner and I will like, I will back you up because I believe you. And so ever since then I keep asking her, I'm like, so what would you do? And now she's like, I would fight them. I'm like, okay, good. And what do you tell somebody who's,

you know, that's young and I applaud that. And there's lessons to be learned from that. What do you say to somebody who's maybe 13 or maybe 16 and starting to date and, you know, going out with a young man and thinks that everything's going to be great until he decides that, you know, he's going to take her somewhere. What do you say to them? Is it the same thing?

It's the same thing. I mean, if anything, it's even more. So in my foundation, we have a program called Smart Defense. And it is a combination of jujitsu and Krav Maga and just honestly basic dirty fighting. But it's more than just those physical skills. It's talking about situational awareness. It's talking about what's okay, what's not okay. I mean, I will never, I will never ever forget...

multiple conversations, but the first conversation I ever had with a survivor and she was in, she was smart. She was intelligent. It had been probably 10 years since her abuse had happened. And she told me her story, how she had been in college and she had a boyfriend and at first everything was great, but then he turned, um,

extremely controlling and abusive. And he was raping her all the time. He had set cameras up in her apartment. He was watching her so she couldn't leave her apartment. And

He was drugging her and she finally got away from him because she eventually after a while realized that's not normal and that's not okay. But she didn't know what had happened to her was rape, that she had been raped by her boyfriend. I mean, it took a number of years after she'd gotten away from him when she was actually speaking with the police officer. And she told that police officer what happened, that the police officer came back and said,

You were raped. What happened to you is rape. If it's not enthusiastic consent, it's rape.

And so we talk a lot about that in smart defense. And, um, right now we are in Utah and Kansas and Idaho, and we're, we're working on expanding. We're working on making this virtual so that, you know, anyone anywhere can have access to it. But even if you don't have access to it, I mean, these are still conversations that parents have to be having with their daughters and quite frankly, their sons, um,

They need, they're, they're difficult and they're hard, but they're so important to have because I mean, I, I remember how I was, um, you know, when I had my first boyfriend and how exciting it was and, you know, wanting to be cool. And so, you know, just perfect's not quite the right word.

but I'm not really sure what other word to use, but perfect so that he would like me so that he would continue to like me. It was me feeling like I wanted to please someone else that they would like me, not,

I guess maybe I lack the confidence in myself to think that he would just quite possibly like me for me. And I mean, I like my first boyfriend, like he was, he was great. He was fine. I mean, I think he genuinely liked me for me and we probably both worried about the exact same thing.

Um, but I think helping to install that in our girls before they even get to that age so that they know what is appropriate and what is not and where their boundaries are. And when someone is crossing them, they have the confidence within them to stand up for themselves and be like, no, this is not okay. I think that is such an essential need to fill these days. Brett, what can you add to that?

You know, it hits home because I have four older sisters and two of my sisters, not the one that was kidnapped and raped, but two of them were also date raped. And so, you know, three out of my four sisters. And we grew up here in Utah. There's supposed to be a...

you know, very religious citizenry. And, um, I mean, the lesson is, is we all have to do better. And in all of these communities and oftentimes in your heavily religious communities, there's a lot of repression and there's, there's not a lot of discussion and education on the issue. And so I, um,

what Elizabeth is outlining. And I think we have a tremendous amount of work to do in communities all across this country. And I'm glad that Elizabeth mentioned, you know, that we have to do more with young men as well. There has to be better education

and training and upbringing for a lot of the young men. And, you know, and I would, what I would add is I would like to see a lot more consistency across this country on how we deal with those cases so that there's more predictability and there's consistency that, that victims of these crimes can start to have a sense that maybe justice is not as elusive as it has been. And because I,

We should do all that we can to eradicate the behavior out of society. We should do all that we can to enable the protection of our young men and women.

but we know that there's still going to be crime and there's going to be this kind of crime. And so we have work to do, I think, in all three areas. Yeah, I think, you know, we need good people like you, Brett, who are willing to take on these cases. I worry that prosecutors look at it and say, you know, it's his word against her word. And this is going to be tough to prosecute. So I'm just not going to move forward.

Which can be so devastating to what will end up being that next victim. I also find that, you know, my experience, my own personal high school experience and also looking at our kids, kids in these high schools, they know who's who. They know who's up to what. And, you know, things get around. I just...

to have the bravery and the smarts, if you will, to get up and actually say something to somebody as Elizabeth was talking about. I hope that happens too. And I do think it's not just it's women, but it's also boys and men. They get raped. They go through these difficult things and sometimes from people in very powerful positions.

Whether it's athletics or religious or, you know, whatever it be, there are people in power that have influence over them. And, you know, young people, they want to be accepted. It's like what you were talking about, Elizabeth. You want to be perfect, right, for that boyfriend or girlfriend.

And but I, I just hope and pray that so many people get strength from what you went through. I'm so sorry that you had to go through what you did. I can't even imagine. I mean, I just seriously cannot even imagine it, Elizabeth. But you are such an inspiration and such a strength to so many people.

And to have gone through that horrific time and turn it into such a positive thing that's going to help countless people that you will never meet, never have a conversation. I'm glad I had a chance to shake your hand a couple of times. I'm sure you don't remember, but I visited with you and you came up to Capitol Hill on Congress. But your strength, I can't thank you enough. And I'm just so happy that you...

you know, have a husband, have this wonderful life with these three young kids. And, uh, I, I just can't thank you enough for sharing your story today. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for having me and giving me this opportunity to chat with you again and be on with my, one of my heroes, Brett Coleman. I'll never forget him. Thank you. And you know, that's likewise. Well, you're, you're, you're both, uh,

Good people doing the right thing. And Elizabeth, just a huge inspiration to all of us. Again, I would encourage people to go to Elizabeth smart.com. You can go there. She's got some books and some other media and other communication there. And Elizabeth, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today.

This has been the Jason in the House podcast. I hope we can do more impactful podcasts like this. And Elizabeth Smart and Brett Tolman, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Well, thank you again for having me. Thank you, Jason.

I can't thank you enough for listening to the Jason and I'll spot cast. I hope you had a great and wonderful 4th of July and that this week, I call it a week because it's not just a day. It's not just fireworks. I hope it lives in your heart, that spirit of America. And I really do appreciate listening to the podcast. Now I want you to rate the podcast. If you can possibly do that. And I want to remind people, by the way, that you can listen to,

ad-free with a Fox News Podcast Plus subscription on Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. Again, thanks for listening to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz. This has been Jason in the House.

Pull up a chair and join me, Rachel Campos Duffy, and me, former U.S. Congressman Sean Duffy, as we share our perspective on the discussions happening at kitchen tables across America. Download From the Kitchen Table, The Duffys, at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you download podcasts.