6 - Anything Can Happen
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Pam Hupp was arrested on August 23, 2016, for the murder of Louis Gumpenberger. And soon after, two detectives escorted her to an interview room at the O'Fallon Police Department. The interview was videotaped. In it, she wore a peach-colored T-shirt, capri pants, flip-flops. She looked like your average suburban housewife. That is...

if it weren't for the handcuffs. She took the water bottle, took a sip. Thirsty? Nervous? Detective Matt Myers looked up at Pam. Other than a nod, she gave him nothing. In the past, she'd been chatty with officers, held court even. This time, not so much.

The other cop who was in that room, Brian Hilkey, told me she just clammed up. After advising of her Miranda rights, she said that she wanted to speak with us, but she wanted to speak with her lawyer, which obviously we were more than willing to accommodate that. Can I call my lawyer to be here with me? We have somebody going to do that right now. Okay. So now, Pam was alone. Head on her hand, she stared at the table. Waiting, thinking...

Every other time she's been in one of these rooms, she was a free woman. But now she was backed into a corner. She seemed to realize it. She sat, stock still, eyes on that little table. Nothing on it except for a couple of pairs of reading glasses, a water bottle, a post-it note, and a pen. Then she moved, quick and furtive. She covered the pen with her hand, slipped it off the table.

and quick as a wink, stuck it under the back waistband of her pants. A moment earlier, Pam looked helpless, finally caught, desperate. But now, she had a plan. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is the final episode of The Thing About Pam, a podcast from Dateline NBC. June 19th, 2019. Another court hearing for Pam Hopp. Just a case review.

But then rumor hit that she was taking a plea. We didn't know anything official. Of course, we were there, the St. Charles County Courthouse. After all that happened, murder, a conviction, an acquittal, impersonation, we were a little unsettled. My producer Kathy, especially so. And she certainly wasn't about to miss this. Go face to face with a killer who impersonated her.

I've been to this courthouse other times. There have been other hearings. This one seems to be a lot more...

anxiety about it and expectation what could it be could it be a plea on Pam's part nobody really knows but uh there's a lot of anxiety about this and I'm feeling it right now my stomach is just jumping up and down the local TV affiliates were there each had sent a reporter and a camera crew but no cameras were allowed inside the courthouse they clustered just outside and as they watched

Along came the man Tam tried to frame for Lewis' murder, Russ Faria. How are you feeling? Anxious, nervous, don't know what's going to happen, but hopefully what everybody hopes and thinks is going to happen happens, is that she's going to take a plea. But that's not a guarantee, so we'll see in a little bit. It's been nearly eight years since the murder of Russ' wife, Betsy, just about four since he got out of jail.

and almost three, since Pam pretended to be a Dateline producer and lured Louis Gumpenberger into her home and shot him dead. Sometimes it's been hard to tell whether time had flown or dragged. Since Pam's arrest in 2016, she'd been sitting in jail facing first-degree murder charges. But police? They had been working, and not just on Louis' case.

Shortly after Pam was arrested, another county reviewed another case. And it wasn't Betsy's murder. It was the death of Pam's mother, Shirley Newman. Yes, that's right. The mother who had died not quite two years after Betsy was murdered. Pam even brought her up while she was on the stand at Russ Faria's first trial. But that wasn't the only time Pam talked about her mother.

Let's go back a little and listen to Pam's chats with the detectives at Lincoln County, where Betsy had been murdered. There was one interview way back in 2012. An investigator was asking questions about how Pam became the beneficiary of Betsy Faria's life insurance policy. And she was certainly no dummy. She understood all the possible implications of this situation. $150,000 was a motive to kill.

And that's when she brought up her mother. Listen. Two months ago, my mom got in an accident and we had to put her in a home. And if I really hate to say it, wanted money, my mom's worth a half a million that I get when she dies. My mom is dementia and doesn't half the time know who we are. And I know that sounds really morbid and stuff like that, but I am a life insurance person. If I really wanted money...

There was an easier way than trying to combat somebody that's physically stronger than me. I'm just saying. Pam implied that if she really wanted insurance money, it would have been easier to kill her own mother, not Betsy. After all, half a million dollars is half a million dollars. Pam actually ran this logic past a man of the law, that she couldn't possibly have murdered person A,

because it made much more sense for her to murder person B. So how did the detective respond? Nothing. No follow-up. The St. Louis County Police, a different police force, investigated Shirley's death right after it happened. Pam's mother had somehow broken through the balcony railing of her apartment. She fell three floors to her death. It was tragic, but police found Shirley's death unsuspicious, and they ruled it an accident.

But was that really what happened? A newspaper reporter put together a timeline of circumstances before and after Shirley fell off the balcony. Pam had taken her to the hospital, I think, the day before or two days before because of some, you know, fall she'd had or something like that. That's Robert Patrick of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. He told me what happened after Shirley checked out of the hospital. Pam brought her back to her apartment and took her up

came back down and said she's not going to be down for dinner or breakfast, and then left. She would have been the last person to see her mother alive. It was the next afternoon, Halloween, before a housekeeper went into Shirley's apartment to check on her. She noticed the water was running in her bathroom, thought that wasn't right, and then... I think she noticed that the patio door was ajar, and

There were some things that were kind of knocked around, and then some of the railings had been dislodged. And when she went on the balcony and looked over the railing, there was Shirley. Apparently went through the railings, through the balcony railings of her apartment. An elderly lady, prone to falling, who got disoriented one last time. A month or so later, the police got an anonymous tip.

They're saying, "You should investigate this. I think this wasn't an accident." And they reinvestigated. Right. And they still said, "No, no, no, it was accidental." But they still didn't talk to Pam. They still didn't talk to Pam. They did talk to Pam's brother, though. They talked to her brother, and her brother said, "You know, I don't have any concerns about what happened here." I mean, her mother, her mother was not in great health. And that was that. Shirley's death was ruled an accident.

But there were pictures of Shirley lying there, and I saw them. You could see a metal railing on the ground by her body, and the others that hadn't fallen were pushed out and bent. Why would she have broken the balcony railing? If she fell, wouldn't she have toppled over the edge? Of course, when you have questions, you go to an expert. We took ours to New York University's School of Medicine.

My name is Dr. Amy Rapkowitz. I'm a forensic pathologist. Dr. Rapkowitz was autopsy director at NYU when we interviewed her in 2016. Her whole thing was figuring out how and why a person dies. So we showed her pictures of the scene at Shirley's apartment, and she found them to be intriguing. They answered some questions, but they also raised more.

Whenever you're dealing with a fall from a height, you'd really want to learn more about any trace evidence that was around, specifically on the balcony. Mostly, was there fingerprints? Were there any fingerprints anywhere on the balcony? Boy, you can see why an early investigation is hugely important. Yeah, most of the investigation is everything. In this case, a criminal investigation wasn't really done, though.

Shirley's death was ruled an accident, but a sample of Shirley's blood had been taken. And it revealed that she had about 14 times the recommended dose of Ambien, or its equivalent, in her system. That's sleeping medication. It's high. It's higher than what you would normally expect in a typical ingestion. How did that happen? Hard to say. She could have taken them by accident, of course.

Or she could have been drugged. So that didn't quite sit right. We suspected, as did the doctor, that the balcony railing, all those spindles wouldn't have just broken if Shirley, drugged or otherwise, happened to fall into them. Again, that's a test that could have been done to determine how much force was required to take those spindles out of the banister. And so we called an engineer.

And I'm just going to demonstrate how strong they are. Each of those weighs what, 94 pounds? 94 pounds. Justin Hall. He specializes in how and why structures fail. Or in this case, how Shirley could have broken through those aluminum spindles or balusters. We found out she was a little over 200 pounds.

Justin calculated that the maximum force a woman her size could have exerted would be about double her weight. That is, if she had tripped and fallen across the balcony and gone through it at full tilt. We're looking at about 425 pounds into the handrail, head first. That's a lot of weight. Yes. But then it did this. It knocked out, what, 5?

Ballisters. Six. Six of them. Six of them were knocked out, two of which were knocked to the ground. That means that there would have to be enough force not just to bend one, but then you have to multiply the force to bend all six? On six, yes. It would take a lawnmower or a vehicle to cause that much bending and pull out. Justin was convinced there was no way Shirley could have done that kind of damage on her own. So he set up an experiment to test the spindles.

After it, our engineer told us it would have taken at least 2,000 pounds to force or break through those bars. I guess it makes you wonder how that could have been broken so badly. It was clearly some other blunt force kicking. Based on what you saw, those photographs and this test, could that possibly have been an accident? No. No way? No way. No way.

After Pam's arrest, the county medical examiner said she no longer felt comfortable classifying Shirley's cause of death as accidental. She changed it to undetermined. So, what would happen? The St. Louis County Police told us the case is still active, but they also said at this time there is no evidence of a crime in that incident. But three more things we know.

The first, after Pam's mother's death, Pam got about $100,000 from Shirley's investments. Curious. Especially after telling an investigator that her mother would make an easy target. Here's reporter Robert Patrick with the second thing. In her car, she also had documents related both to Betsy Freer and her mother, which was unusual. Maybe she carried them around all the time, I don't know. And the third thing...

You have one person who was either the last person to see three people alive or the next to the last person. And as someone who's never seen, has never been that person, never been the last person to see somebody alive, it's extraordinary. That's one word for it. There are some football feelings you can only get with BetMGM Sportsbook. That's right. Not just the highs, the ohs, or the no, no, no's.

It's the feeling that comes with being taken care of every down of the football season. The feeling that comes with getting MGM rewards benefits or earning bonus bets. So, whether you're drawing up a same-game parlay in your playbook or betting the over on your favorite team...

The BetMGM app is the best place to bet on football. You only get that feeling at BetMGM. The sportsbook born in Vegas, now live across the DMV. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. See BetMGM.com for terms. 21 plus only, DC only, subject to eligibility requirements. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

A project with so much potential, a unified and successful team, but then chaos, missed deadlines, no communication, and a trail of digital tumbleweeds. This wasn't just any project failure, folks. This was the case of the collapsed collaboration. But there's a way to rewrite this story. Monday.com can illuminate any project, assign tasks, track progress, and share files and updates all in one place with no mysteries. Tap the banner to go to Monday.com.

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install? Done well. Deck upgrades? Done well. Electrical upgrade? Done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high-quality, certified pros at Angie.com.

Another extraordinary fact: August 2018, Lincoln County voted out both the prosecutor and the judge involved in the conviction of Betsy's husband, Russ. The prosecutor, you'll recall, was a woman named Leah Askey. She lost the election to a man named Mike Wood. Lost it by a lot. During his campaign, Wood was extremely critical of her handling of the Faria case.

Just listen to one of his campaign videos. Prosecuting attorney Leah Womack Askey put Russ Faria, an innocent man behind bars for the murder of his wife, while personally coaching the woman who received the insurance money, Pamela Hupp, on how to avoid prosecution. August 7th, Leah Askey comes up for reelection. I think there was a level of disappointment in how that case was handled.

And we certainly wanted to highlight that we felt like that was a major problem that we didn't ever want to see again. So at the heart of your campaign was this botched investigation. What are you going to do about it? I think the community deserves for us to take another look at it. And now, Mike Wood has reopened the Betsy Faria murder case, something Leah Askey hadn't done even after Russ's acquittal.

Wood hired an outside investigator to get to the bottom of what happened, at last. It's been nearly eight years since Betsy's death, but the prosecuting attorney is hoping there still might be something left to discover.

Including DNA. You talked about getting some things reexamined, the knife for example, but any other bits of evidence that you can think of? There was some DNA evidence that was found on the light switch that was never fully identified. Are you talking about the unknown male? Yeah. We could run into the possibility that there was an accomplice. Do you think that's a good possibility? Too early to say for me.

But let's go back to the investigation that already pinpointed a murderer. To the St. Charles County Courthouse in June of 2019, where Pam Hupp was about to make her latest move in the case of Louis Gumpenberger. Once the proceedings began, it became clear this would actually be a plea hearing. Prosecutor Tim Lomar held a press conference.

We're here today just to formally announce just a few minutes ago Pamela Hutt pled guilty to the charges of first-degree murder and armed criminal action, all of which arose out of the shooting death of Louis Gumpenberger. Though he said the word guilty, she did not actually admit that she had killed Louis, nor did she explain what she did or why she did it or apologize or show

any remorse. She didn't have to do any of those things because she took an Alford plea.

A reporter pressed Lomar for an explanation. Why allow her to put in an Alford plea? Why not make her admit the guilt or take it to trial? Yeah, good question. So the Alford plea basically means that she's acknowledging that the state's evidence is so overwhelming that had she gone to trial, there would be virtually no doubt that she'd be convicted. I have no problem with the Alford plea. It's ultimately up to the judge whether or not he's going to accept that.

The end result's the same. She's locked up in prison for the rest of her life. Now, if you want my opinion, you want my opinion? Yeah, I don't think she has the courage to say that she did it. She has shown that she's a coward and she's manipulative from day one. So it doesn't surprise me that that's how we got here. But we got here. Indeed. After all we've learned, perhaps it's not so surprising at all. Not surprising Pam wouldn't admit to anything, let alone premeditated murder.

And it's certainly not surprising she wouldn't talk to us. Even if she had liked Kathy well enough to impersonate her. When Pam took the Alfred plea, it meant she could avoid saying the one thing anyone wanted to hear her say. I did it. To many, there was something unsatisfying about that Alfred plea.

didn't quite amount to remorse or even acknowledging her crimes. Here's what Russ had to say. Well, she took an Alford plea, which is not an actual admission of guilt. It's a bit of a disappointment, but again, still a relief that she's going to be locked up for the rest of her life. But he's hanging his hopes on the chance that Betsy's murder could still be officially solved.

And with all the years Kathy has covered this case, she thinks about how it will end too. I'd like to see this story conclude with justice. Betsy Freya has not received justice. Russ Freya has not received justice. Her family has not received justice. Still, that could take a while. And Kathy's got a grandchild. She could retire, bake brownies and birthday cakes for her family, and find a new obsession.

But that's not Kathy. Her job's not done. More work to do. We all have more work to do. I think it's safe to say that I will not retire before the Pam Haas-Rosferia saga concludes. And I want to be part of it and report on it myself. So I don't see myself retiring until this case is completely closed. When will that be? Maybe sooner than we think.

Lincoln County Prosecutor Mike Wood is pursuing different ways to solve Betsy's murder. I asked him about them. So, the motive in the admitted killing of Mr. Gumpaburger was her effort to cover up her role in the Betsy Faria murder and to place blame once again on Russ Faria. Right. Does that give you some ammunition you can use? Potentially. Let's think about it for a moment. Someone who's willing to stage a killing

Number one ought to give you pause in and of itself, of course. But if you're willing to stage a killing of someone in order to attempt to deflect or cover up issues that were in a neighboring county, ought to lead you to believe that if you're willing to kill somebody here, potentially you're willing to kill somebody somewhere else. And now that Pam is already incarcerated?

He has surprising leverage for his own case. And we've game-planned this out a little bit. We get to the point that we have chargeable information. We may even approach Pam Hupp, assuming that that's the person the evidence is leading to, and see if she wants to talk to us. She may admit to the whole thing. You know, she's in prison for the rest of her life. She doesn't have to admit a damn thing to it. But she also has nothing to lose. Potentially, she's eligible for death penalty in this case in Lincoln County, assuming that the

Investigation leads to where a lot of people think it will lead to. That sounds like a prosecutor who is thinking, hmm, I might have something I can use for negotiating here. It'd be spot on. But that's assuming Pam values the truth more than her own life. And so far, Pam Hupp has done everything to avoid facing the truth.

Back at the police station, after Pam was arrested for Lewis's murder, she was in that interview room alone, just her and the pen tucked into the back of her pants. She sat, head down. She almost looked defeated, but no. She lifted up her hand. She put it to her neck, pushed a little, pushed a little more, seemed to be feeling for something.

Soon after, the detective opened the door. Pam asked to use the restroom. A female officer was brought in, walked her out of the interview room. While in custody this morning, just before noon today, Pamela Hupp indicated that she needed to use the restroom. While inside the female bathroom,

Pamela Hupp began stabbing herself on the wrist and in her neck with a ballpoint pen. An assigned female police officer interrupted those actions and immediately rendered aid after summoning medical personnel. Pamela Hupp was conveyed to an area hospital, and she is in stable condition. Tim Lomar remembered Pam's attempted suicide, of course. It was...

Unforgettable. And it happened moments before he had to get up and give the press announcement of her arrest. The police chief called me right after it happened. I think I yelled back in the phone, how in the world could this have happened?

This put Lieutenant Brian Hilkey in a difficult position. Being one of the officers that is tasked with leading this investigation, being responsible for it all, obviously it was a very nervous period because you never want anyone to die on your watch. And especially knowing that I really didn't want to lead into the press conference with, oh, and by the way, Pam Hupp killed herself. So it was obviously very nerve wracking.

Not a moment Hilke and McClain are likely to forget. Ever. A pen. A thick pen. Yeah. I mean... A plastic pen. And the coldness and how she secreted it. You'd have to talk to the doctor, but she did a pretty darn good job. Yes. I don't know how close she came, but... Well, in fact, when she was stabbing herself multiple times, the officer took her to the restroom, asked her, Pam, are you doing okay? And as she's stabbing herself repeatedly,

again and again and again in a calm voice. She said, "I'm good." The woman's composure just does not flag. She never dropped her mask. Makes you wonder if it even is a mask or if that's just her. That's the thing about Pam. A woman who is hard to read, laughing with police, joking with lawyers. The impersonation, the greed, the murder,

Think of how far we've come in this podcast. How many stories this woman told. What does it all mean to her? And what does it say about her? At this point, we've all come to our own conclusions about Pam. Here it comes. Here comes the show.

She's got an attitude. She thinks she's better than everybody. Here comes the Pam Huck control show. She's been around a minimum of three people who died suspiciously, and she's been the last person with them. She thinks she is clever. She probably thinks she is smarter than any person in that room. I see a narcissistic, cool, controlling person. Money makes people do crazy, crazy things. It might be as simple as that. It's Pam. Anything can happen.

So, is that the story? Is it done? Of course not. This is Pam Hopp. But for now I'll leave with one rare little glimmer of truth. Revealed that day she stabbed herself. Pam took that pen and went directly for her neck and her wrist. And I couldn't help but remember the two things stood out when Russ found Betsy.

The knife in her neck and a deep cut on her wrist. So, I asked Hilkey and McClain a question. Was there any similarity that you could see between the stabbing pattern she used on herself and the stabbing pattern which turned up on another murder case? I can definitely say you could see some similarities. It was an immediate thought for me. Uh-huh.

Tell me about that. Similarities. My understanding is that that is an open act of investigation and they're still looking for the killer of that woman. Meaning? Meaning, I probably can't come. So, no. This story is not finished. And that's the thing about Pam. There's always something. Something more. Something to come. The full truth about Pamela Hupp is still waiting for its final chapter.

The Thing About Pam is brought to you by Dateline NBC. From Dateline NBC, Kathy Singer and Christine Fillmore are producers. Jackie Montalvo is the associate producer. Susan Nall oversees our digital programming. Adam Corfane is our senior broadcast producer. Liz Cole is our executive producer. David Corvo is our senior executive producer.

At NBC News, Steve Lichtai is the executive producer of podcasts and Barbara Rabb is the senior producer of podcasts. From Neon Hum Media, Mary Knopf is the producer. Natalie Wren is the associate producer. Catherine St. Louis is the editor. Jonathan Hirsch is the executive producer. Sound design and mixing by Scott Somerville. Additional mixing by Meneka Wilhelm. Original music by Andrew Eapin.

Additional production support from Tanner Robbins, Natalie Bader, and Betty Marquez Rosales. There are some football feelings you can only get with BetMGM Sportsbook. That's right. Not just the highs, the ohs, or the no, no, no's. It's the feeling that comes with being taken care of every down of the football season. The feeling that comes with getting MGM Rewards benefits or earning bonus bets.

So, whether you're drawing up a same-game parlay in your playbook or betting the over on your favorite team, the BetMGM app is the best place to bet on football. You only get that feeling at BetMGM, the sportsbook born in Vegas, now live across the DMV. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. See BetMGM.com for terms. 21 plus only, DC only, subject to eligibility requirements. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.