“Our Parents Have Trauma Too” Vienna Pharaon On Forgiveness, Setting Boundaries, Breaking Generational Trauma, Healing From Our Past, and How To Have the Hard Conversations
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The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Mari has grown her to fitness and nutrition brand. Co-founder of Bloom Nutrition. Forbes 30 under 30 list. A successful entrepreneur. Someone who has lost 90 pounds. Today's guest is Mari Llewellyn. Mari Llewellyn. My friend Mari. Welcome to the pursuit of wellness.

Before we get into this intro, I want to remind you guys we are doing a POW holiday giveaway leading up to Christmas, every week leading up to Christmas. So all you have to do is listen for the code in today's episode for a chance to win products from Cozy Earth. Last week was Caraway,

this week's Cozy Earth. We have some amazing prizes, guys. So all you need to do is listen the whole way through the episode and wait for me to announce the secret code and then you're going to DM it to the Pursuit of Wellness podcast page and we will be choosing winners. There's also rules. Go read the Instagram post I did on this on the Pursuit of Wellness podcast page.

But listen for the code, guys. It's somewhere in this episode. So welcome back, pal girls and pal boys. Today, we are talking generational trauma. This episode is long overdue. I feel like it actually came along at a perfect time for me. Without getting into specifics, I happen to be going through a difficult time with a family member. So when Vienna came in, I was like, perfect. I

Let me ask her all the questions that I need to know and hopefully it will apply to the community as well, which I think it will. I feel like around the holidays, so many of us are encountering trauma.

you know, we're in houses with family members who maybe we have unhealed relationships with, or even just like stepping into our old childhood homes and being like, whoa, I haven't confronted this part of my past yet. It can be a lot around the holidays. And also it can be a really isolating time. So I feel like this is a really great episode for this time of year. You're going to feel like you just had the best therapy session of your life after this episode. And

We're talking about how to break our toxic patterns, face the past and break through the limiting beliefs we may have about ourselves. This episode is really about healing your inner child and learning how to move forward in the best way possible. I don't know about you guys, but like, I want to be the most healed version of myself. And that changes each year. We're always evolving. We're always realizing things, quoted by Kylie Jenner.

And this episode was one of those ones where I walked away and said, I really learned something from this. And I feel like I'm ready to take on certain problems I might be having in my life right now. And I feel like I have a plan of action. Some things we're covering today, navigating toxic parental relationships with compassion, navigating difficult conversations with parents, overcoming the shame of receiving feedback. That's a big one. Receiving feedback is difficult.

validation and healing through shared experiences, is forgiveness an essential part of healing? The concept of firsts, things that change the trajectory of our lives and who we are. The five origin wounds, worthiness, prioritization, belonging, safety, and trust. Childhood wounds, common patterns in adult behavior and family, setting boundaries, navigating past trauma for present growth.

understanding people pleasing guys we are a generation of people pleasers this is a big one and the setting boundaries loss of identity and unhealthy habits finding our authentic selves

how to put our phones down and be intentional with our time, breaking generational trauma and creating a healthy family environment for anyone wanting to have kids or for anyone who does have kids. She gave us some amazing advice. Also, I'm feeling extra specially generous this time of year. And I know that with cold season around and all of us kind of focusing on

feeling our best for the holidays and going into the new year, I want to give you guys a code for Bloom. This code will apply to all of our products, greens, protein, matcha, whatever you're in the mood for. The code is POW15, P-O-W-15 at checkout.

It won't last long. So if you've been wanting to try Bloom, and obviously if you don't know, I am the founder of Bloom Nutrition and I created greens because I wanted an all-in-one gut health supplement that helped with bloating, digestion, and it has so many good ingredients in there. So if you want 15% off, use code POWER15. Without further ado, let's hop into this episode. I really hope you enjoy it and don't forget to subscribe and follow. Love you guys.

Vienna, welcome to the show. Thank you. I have been so looking forward to this conversation. You are a marriage and family therapist and author of The Origins of You. I love that title, by the way. I think so many of us can benefit from looking at our origins and pinpointing where our adult behaviors might be coming from. I know for me personally, I've spoken about it a lot on the podcast. I've spoken about it a lot on the podcast.

a huge part of my inner healing has been unpacking family trauma in therapy. I'm also really happy we are digging into this so close to the holidays because I think that can be a really triggering time for people and this conversation couldn't come at a better time. Many of us, I think majority of my listeners are millennial, but many of us millennials and Gen Zs are maybe the first to break the family dynamic and

maybe because we're having so many more open conversations around this topic and it feels like we're talking about generational trauma, we're talking about toxic family systems, but that can also be really scary because we're the first disruptors of our families. I want to start by asking you why,

why is this so important and what makes it worth it to really unpack and go back in the past? Yeah, so many... I know it's hard to go back. And I think a lot of times people want to just keep looking forward or...

People will often say, okay, that happened so long ago, or I wouldn't be who I am if it hadn't happened. We have all of these different ways to make what happened be something that we can just kind of put behind us. And what I've found, because I've worked with individuals, couples, families for over 25,000 hours of direct therapeutic work. And what I have always seen is that the unwanted patterns

in our lives today, the things that we can't shake, the conflict we keep getting into, the fact that we keep choosing to date emotionally unavailable people, whatever the pattern might be, if you can't just change it,

it's going to be linked to the irresolution from the past, right? Because we're playing out a pattern present day that's bringing us back to something that wants our attention, right? Because we are smart people, right? We're like, oh, this thing that I can't stand, this thing that I hate doing. And yet I keep finding myself in the dynamic or engaging in this thing in the same way. We wouldn't do that, right? Obviously, if there wasn't another reason to

it. And what I've always said is, you know, pain isn't out to get us. Pain is not trying to ruin our lives. It is not cynically laughing at us, right? But it will find ways, clever ways to bring us back into contact with the origin pain, the origin wound that wants our attention, that wants to be healed, right? And so it does, it finds these clever ways to pull our attention back in

when we're kiddos, when we're teenagers, when we survive through something, whether it's something really horrific or whether it's something that might be a little bit more subtle, we just find our way through. Maybe we white knuckle our way through. We get to the other side through some form of survival. But when we're five years old or 13 years old, we're not sitting to be like, oh, I

how did that impact me? How has this shaped the course of my life? Like we just get to the other side and continue on with life. And I think pain really wants to be felt. It really wants to be acknowledged. It really wants to be witnessed. It needs to be grieved in order for it to loosen its grip on us. Right?

Why is it important? Because I think that if you want to actually live out the life or the relationships that you say you want, you're going to have to turn back around for a little bit of time. We don't need to hang out there forever, but we have to turn back for a little bit of time to really honor and yeah, just like name what is there and do some of the work that I talk about in the book.

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As a therapist, how do you know when someone's ready to go there versus not? Less defensiveness, less explanation. You know, I think a lot of times I was this person before where I couldn't

oh my gosh, I could explain away the whole situation. Like, here's why it makes sense. Or you have people who want to cling to, okay, but here's who I became because of the pain or the trauma and the wounding. And I think, of course, that is true that without this story, we would not be who we are today. But it's, am I gonna be motivated by my healing or is it gonna be driven by the irresolution? So you notice with people when,

the wall goes down where there's a curiosity, where they're willing to take feedback from you. And obviously as a therapist, you know, we're bringing it forward in a really gentle and compassionate way. But sometimes it's direct. You know, sometimes we have to say like, I want you to look at this thing. And people who are ready to do that, they will, you know, they will look at it, even if it's challenging, even if it's confronting. And I think when you have enough safety and trust in that therapeutic relationship,

which is something that just builds over time, then people are more willing to be challenged by you. And that's why the therapeutic relationship is so powerful because I think about people I've been with for years and years now. You think like the first month when people are like, oh, my family was perfect and there was nothing there. And now they'll look back and be like, oh my goodness, it was so funny that I used to say that I grew up in a perfect family system. And now I can look at it and I can see that, sure, like they,

did the best that they could and write all of these things that people will say, but they can acknowledge what the experience is in a more like just truthful and factually correct way. When I look back on my first sessions with my therapist, I feel like I came from it from a very performative angle, which is so weird to say, but I do feel like our generation is a little bit

we're people pleasers. We want to make the other person accept us and be who they want us to be. But with therapists, it's like, obviously their role is to accept you as you are and listen to everything you have going on. So it took me a very long time to get comfortable really going there. And I even struggle now. So for anyone listening who is struggling with that relationship, it does take time. But it is such a powerful one. Yeah, it takes, I mean,

even for me, I went into grad school right after undergrad and I was in school to be a marriage and family therapist

diving deep into family systems. And I remember early on that I would, I was so sure that my parents' divorce had not affected me. It was like, they're great friends. We do holidays together. You know, they, they get along, they can drive in the same car and all of those things were true. But I wasn't even ready when I was learning this work

to actually name the impact of what things had been on for me, right? And that it's like when you say, oh, you have to be ready. It's really true. Like I was in this work. I was training to be a therapist. I was good at being a therapist, but there was a limitation. I could only take clients so far until I was finally able to really address some of the things that I had kept further away. Part of what is hard about this work is that it requires you to feel

And I had been someone that may be similar. I know you're talking about being the people pleaser.

I was the person who said everything was fine. I was unaffected. I was unbothered by things. I had no boundaries. All was good. I like to fly under the radar. I really held onto this cool girl persona, which was like, yeah, whatever. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about me. Right. And part of that spiel was so that I didn't have to feel because if I had actually accepted that I had been impacted, that I had been affected, but it would bring me to a lot of emotion and

That was very overwhelming for me because I didn't know how to feel. I had to disconnect from that for so long because the amount of emotion that was present in my family system when they were going through, when they went through a nine-year divorce process, it was really drawn out. And...

there was so much emotion and conflict and volatility and emotional flooding. And I mean, it was really, really awful. And I didn't feel like there was space for me. And so this idea of connecting with self, the idea of actually feeling what is there was so new and scary for me, even a person who was going into the field of therapy. So I say that because

The reasons why we avoid some of this, like it all makes sense when we have context.

And if you can bring that compassion and that curiosity in to say like, instead of what's wrong with me, why can't I look at this? Okay, like what about my story makes this make sense? What about my history makes me understand why it is hard for me to look at this and feel this and connect with this? So I generally hope that people will take a compassionate approach to

when it comes to exploring this stuff and understanding why you might resist it. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing your situation because I think it will help a lot of people feel more compassionate themselves. And I do think it's difficult to have that, I don't know if I would call it self-awareness, but to look at yourself so honestly and look at the things that are triggering you and maybe ask why to get to that stage is challenging.

What would you say to someone listening who feels like, as you said, they have a perfect childhood, they don't have trauma, there's nothing going on there? Yeah. So I think trauma is one of those tricky words, right? It tends to get overused now. And so a lot of people will say, I don't have trauma, so this doesn't pertain to me. And that's...

a dangerous slope because we've all experienced pain or disappointment. That's why I use the language of wounds in my book, because I like to think of it, we've all had a physical wound before. You're a kid, you scrape your knee, it starts to bleed, somebody cleans it up.

and puts a bandaid over it and tells you to let it get some air. And then the bandaid comes off and the scab is there. And then you hit into the side of the table and starts to bleed again. Okay, so we have the physical representation of that there. The emotional wound is similar, right? Sometimes it is in the most obvious of ways and things that we would call trauma. And then sometimes it's in more subtle ways where we have a parent who prioritized work

all the time and we didn't feel important enough to them. Or maybe we grew up in a family system where there was more conditional love. And so we learned that we would get validation or attention when we got straight A's or we were performing very well on the soccer field. Or if we were successfully humorous, right? Then it meant that dad would stop hurting my sister, right? We learned, okay, if I'm this way, then I get this result. So sometimes it's just

more in these subtle ways where, okay, I just don't feel like I belong in my family. I don't fit in here or they need me to be someone other than who I am in order for me to feel a sense of love. So sometimes it doesn't feel so acute, right? And so when we think of this work as, oh, my parents or my family had to be so awful for me to have a wound. Oh my gosh, so many people are going to check out from this work.

And I think there's a lot of space where people say, okay, well, my parents are so much better than what their parents were to them. Or I have so much gratitude. I couldn't possibly just sit here and, you know, throw them under the bus. And this book is not

about that. I know you've read parts of it, all of it, whatever it is, you understand that it's not about trying to throw the parents and the adults under the bus. It is about just acknowledging what our experience is, right? And so this idea that, okay, either I have to have the worst story in the world for me to be entitled to have a wound, not it.

That's what I call wound comparison in the book, right? We put ourselves on the spectrum and that is a distraction away from our healing to say that somebody else has it worse. Okay, objectively, that might be true, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter for your story.

And so if you're somebody who tends to say, oh, but I have a friend who grew up this way and oh my gosh, I'm so grateful that I didn't have that story. Okay, you can hold space for that, but that cannot be the distraction away from you also creating space and holding space for your own story. And so that's the part is that when people disconnect from their story in that way, they don't have access points to do the healing work that they wanna do. Because if you have any unwanted pattern in your life right now,

then there's something there for you to address. 100%. Yeah. I love the way you put that. And I also think it's good to acknowledge the gray area. Yes. You can have gratitude for the way that you grew up, but also honor your own emotional experience in that household. Right.

I want to talk about toxic parental relationships because I think this is a challenging topic because there's a lot of weight on celebrating and having gratitude for our parents, in particular, our mothers from a young age. And I think as kids, as you mentioned, we start comparing our family dynamic and relationships with our parents quite young. I know I did.

And it can be quite isolating to talk about because you don't want to sound ungrateful. You don't want to, I guess, bring attention to the lack of relationship or the toxic relationship. How do you approach this topic with your patients? Yes. It's so important that we remember that our parents have a complex

history and story as well. And context is not meant to be an excuse maker. I make that very clear. But context is important. Our parents, their parents, everybody was a tiny human once before in a big family system that probably had some challenges and struggles to it. And sometimes we know what those struggles were, right? Sometimes our parents have told us what their lives were like. And then I talk to people who sometimes don't really have much history at all. They think

Say, I don't really know the details, but I think it was hard for my mom. But that's really all I know, especially if you haven't met the grandparents, if they were deceased before...

you were born or maybe when you were really young. And yeah, that it's so important that we hold compassion and empathy for the other while also the ownership, accountability, responsibility, right? And that I think is one of the best ways for us to approach this. I don't have to sit here and I don't have to blame you and be like, you're the...

listen, there's some people obviously that cross over a really strong line. And so it makes sense why people might be entirely cut off or not want to even have compassion for a parent. And, you know, for the majority of us, right, probably what is true is that they have their own irresolution that they never were able to address. Like you said before, like where some of the first

generation that's actually looking at this and really pulling up our sleeves to try to do this work. And so we think about our parents, we think about our grandparents, like they weren't on social media getting all of this beautiful content from therapists and mental health practitioners, right? It's like there wasn't a lot of information there for people to work through this. They were really required to...

bottle it up and keep it in. And so, yeah, it's so important to have that perspective while also being able to place that perspective down. I see you as an individual who once was a tiny human in a system that was probably really hard for you. And you're also an adult who

who maybe didn't heal, who maybe didn't look at some of the things that you needed to look at so that you weren't going to pass that down to me. And so I have to have access to what my experience is too. I say it towards the end of the book, there's this beautiful exercise that Michael Kerr offers, which is to think of your mother as your grandmother's daughter and see what changes. And that perspective, again, is critical.

context, okay, without excuse making. I think it's a beautiful exercise. And it's one that really presents like, let's hold the context. Again, we don't need to make excuses for the individual, but let's remember this person in this way, right? And that's what we do as therapists, right? It's like systemic thinking. And I see you as part of the system. And

And so, yes, it is so important, I think, when we're doing this work to hold that in one hand and to also be able to place that down and then pick ourselves back up. Because if you only hold the story that they did the best that they could, that they didn't have the right resources, whatever you can fill in the blank with, right, then you're going to keep disconnecting from honoring what your pain is. And that's the point of this work is to be able to acknowledge and honor what your actual pain is. ♪

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I really love the way you phrased it as if you were speaking to the parent at the beginning, because I think me personally, and I know a lot of others don't even know how to approach the conversation. I think

Also, because our parents' generation, a lot of them are not in therapy, have never been in therapy, perhaps don't have the language to speak about topics like this and maybe don't even have the emotional ability to speak.

What do you recommend if we want to have this conversation with our parent, but don't quite know how to approach it or if they'll even be able to receive it? It's tricky because I think sometimes there is room for us to try to have that conversation. And then also sometimes part of the work is the acceptance that they can't have the conversation. That the thing that we would like to experience with them is not acceptable.

to us and that what needs to happen there actually happens somewhere else, whether that's with a therapist, whether that's with a partner who wants to listen, whether it's a dear friend who can compassionately hold a beautiful space while you share it with them. I think that's one of the things that I see people like,

stay so committed to. It's like, I need to find the right way to get this person to hear what I'm saying and acknowledge my pain. And I'm going to try it this way and that way and this way and that way. And we can do it so politely. We can have a really beautiful startup. We can use all the right language. It almost doesn't matter. Sometimes we can scream it. We can write it in a letter. We can try all of the different ways. And sometimes part of this work is the acceptance of what that limitation is. What is hard for a lot of folks is that

And shame accompanies feedback for so many people. Shame comes right in with feedback. It's one of the hardest things to navigate. It's why I say like, when we want to receive feedback well, we have to be able to hold ourselves in high regard, even though somebody is saying, I feel disappointed. I was let down. You hurt me when...

And if we don't hold ourselves in high regard, then shame comes in or guilt comes in or embarrassment comes in. And then we have to move to a place of self-protection. Wow. So when the parent is not able to hold themselves in high enough regard, right? Then they have to go into a place of protecting the self. And when you are in a place of protecting the self, you are not in a place to be able to listen to the other. It just doesn't happen that way, right? And so when a parent is defensive...

I gave you so much. Don't you know how much I sacrificed for you? Can't you see this? You're so ungrateful, right? Like it can be a lot of those things. Maybe it sounds like that. Maybe it sounds different than some of those examples. But a lot of times, right, the parent is in this very self-protective place and they cannot connect to what their adult child is telling them.

And so, okay, if you haven't tried this before, I would definitely come at it from the approach of how do I just share what my experience is without going on the attack of you, right? I don't need to be pointing out all of the things that you did wrong, but I want to share like that this was the impact. And here's what I've been working on to try to shift how that the long lasting effects have been for me. And I want to let you know about that.

But I would say that so much of the time, a lot of this work is actually about allowing yourself to be self-witnessed and also other-witnessed by someone who has the capacity to do that work with you. So therapist, partner, friend, et cetera. So there's a grief process of my mom or my...

my dad or step parent or anybody else who was an adult figure in your life you know what is the grief process around this person is never going to be able to acknowledge what it is that I'm looking for them to acknowledge and that's the sticking point is that if I can't move on without you doing x y and z acknowledgement ownership apology whatever it might be then I'm stuck

then I'm stuck. Then I can't find my own relief. If I need you to do one of those things, then I can't move forward without it. It puts, it outsources our healing. I need you to do this thing that you can't do or won't do. And I can't move forward unless you do it. That's a problem.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a problem. And that's why doing this work where I talk about, you know, like witnessing the self, right? The part, you know, the age, the time when the origin wound happened, and then maybe also bringing somebody else in to do some of that witnessing work. It's so powerful. I remember there was a time in my relationship, this was before I was married, but I was dating my now husband and I was having a conversation, um,

And it was on speakerphone and he was in the apartment at the time and he had overheard it. And I got off the phone. It was the same old thing, the same pattern around and around we go, same argument. And I got off the phone and I didn't prompt anything from him. I didn't even really know that he had been listening. And he goes, I see what you're talking about.

And it sounds so simple. And yet this was such a profound moment for me as I remember how clearly I no longer needed the person on the phone to understand and get it.

and do it differently because I had just had someone else really witness and validate what I had been saying for so long. It's fair to say I am also an only child and I share that detail because I don't have siblings. I didn't have any other adults in my life when my parents were going through the divorce. And so there was an absence of validation. There was nobody else in the space to be able to say, I see what you see. I'm experiencing what you're experiencing. And so I remember that being such a,

profound moment for me to just have someone say so simply, like, I get it. I see what you're saying. And after that, I was like, I actually no longer need this person to acknowledge or, you know, validate what it is that I'm saying to them because having it done by him was actually enough. It was remarkable. I mean, I've had a similar experience. It's so funny to hear you say it because

I never really shared how I felt after having someone else validate my experience with someone in my family. But just having someone say, I know I see the same thing is so healing. Yes. And it validates years and years and years of an experience that you kind of end up holding inside because you maybe feel like it isn't true or you make yourself crazy with it. So I really appreciate you saying that.

And you also mentioned the shame piece when it comes to speaking with a parent and them becoming defensive. And that is really eye-opening for me. And I can, it's really helpful to have that perspective, I think. Yeah. And also...

Also to know that maybe that conversation doesn't ever have to happen, really. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't. And, you know, it's like we can be strategic. I think there's a fine line between doing some of that emotional labor for another where it's like, I don't want you to feel ashamed. I'm not trying to say that you weren't a good mom, right? Like I think sometimes that can feel really exhausting to us.

But I think to be mindful of, oh, will this person go into a shame spiral? Will this person have to protect themselves so that they cannot actually listen to what it is that I'm saying? And so is there a strategic way for me to share this where they don't have to become as defensive? And again, each person listening has to really consider, okay, how much

emotional caretaking, you know, do you do for people? I think there is a line where we can be considerate and kind and thoughtful in the way that we express things. And also we cannot just make the most perfect decision

situation and scenario so that no one ever has to come in contact with any hard feelings, right? Like at the end of the day, the other person is still responsible for their emotional experience of the feedback. But yeah, it's hard. And I think a lot of times, more times than we want to really accept is that the

the person may not be able to, cannot or will not be able to do what it is that we're hoping that they're able to do. And so where do we go then? On that topic, do you think forgiveness is an essential part of healing? Like let's say we have a difficult relationship with a parent or a sibling and there's some

history there that's difficult to reconcile. And maybe you aren't able to have the conversation because that person isn't able to handle it. Do we need to forgive or can we heal without ultimately forgiving? So I want to divide this into two, forgiveness of other and forgiveness of self. So I think somewhere in there always is some version of forgiveness. And

Now, sometimes you're right. This can be a controversial topic at times. I think it's very important to understand how each person is defining what forgiveness means. I think what I appreciate generally is that forgiveness is never saying that what happened is okay, is right, right.

yeah, was an all right thing to have happen, right? We know that the things that happen that are hurtful, harmful, painful for us, traumatizing for us are not okay. They never were, they never will be. And so I think we have to hold that very firmly. But I think it's about the relationship of is the absence of forgiveness keeping me stuck or not?

And you have to answer that very honestly, right? Do I need to forgive the other person or do I need to forgive myself? Sometimes we are in a place of self-blame saying, if only I had spoken up, if only I had done this, if only I had said no, if only, if only, if only. And so again, sometimes, right, this conversation is actually about self-forgiveness, right?

rather than other forgiveness. Overall, I think that forgiveness is a good thing. I think there is a release that happens there.

I certainly can understand when people protest forgiveness. I really can. I can understand the scenarios where they're like, I don't have to forgive this other person in any way in order to move on with my life. And you know what? If that is true for you, good. If it is not keeping you from your resolution, good. But only you will know whether you are holding or storing something internally.

whether you are holding or storing something internally that needs the attention. And I think it is more likely true to rework the definition almost of forgiveness, right? Instead of trying to fit into a particular box around what you think forgiveness is and what it means to actually relate to it differently, to understand what do I need to do and release forgiveness

and let go of in order to come to my resolution, right? In order to live with a state of internal peace, right? I wanna ask you how much of a role you think culture plays in family dynamic. Because in my personal experience, so I moved from the UK when I was 10. And one of the first things I noticed, and I remember this, was the difference in the parent-child relationship.

In the UK, and I don't want to overgeneralize, but in my experience, it felt much more reserved and separate. And I noticed when I moved to America, parents were super involved in every like, you know, schooling, activity, friendship. They knew everything about the child. And.

And it really highlighted my experience of feeling like there wasn't a ton of affection in the household or not a lot of involvement in my life in general. Have you noticed that culture plays a big role in this? Huge. I love this question. And I think as therapists, of course, we have to be

deeply culturally aware when we're working with people. Because yes, as you just said right here, if you grew up in America, how you relate to your family is going to be very different than how other cultures might relate. I remember having clients where

you know, oh, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to move in with my spouse or my partner and that that's going to cause such a rift in my family of origin. Or if there's any type of like

autonomy line, right? Of like the separation, the differentiation from the family, moving away from the family of origin, right? It's going to cause conflict there, right? So I think this level of maybe what I would call like a sense of indebtedness in certain cultures, right? Where like the family kind of stays together all the way through, right? We live together. Maybe the parents live in one of the child's homes, for example, right? So there are

are so many cultural differences that play a part. But it's really fascinating to think about, you know, having grown up in a different culture and then moving to it, moving here for you and then noticing the differences, right? That the way that your parents participated with you versus how you were seeing friends' parents participate with them and then comparing that and then internalizing it, right? And like, oh, do my parents, I mean, you can speak to this more, but do my parents not,

care as much as these parents care? Like, do you not love me as much? Am I not good enough for you to invest in me in the same way? I don't know if it looks like some of that resonates. Oh my gosh. It's so much. I think it defined a huge part of my early years, to be honest. It's a really interesting...

thing to have the contrast, right? Because so for example, too, there's a period of time when you're a kid where you are just around your family. You're not actually around other families. And then maybe you go to school and then you go start spending time with a best friend's family and you're like, oh, they do it so differently. Why are they asking me what my boyfriend's name is? Why are they asking me all these questions? Like I was pretty like

Yeah. I'm surprised. Yes. Right. So it's very interesting that shift when you start to realize that this isn't how everyone does it. Right. And that's still true when different culture, same culture, right? Like, cause I think you have a lot of American kids and they're like,

oh, your parents don't fight the same way my parents do? Or, oh, this parent asks a lot of questions and I don't have that experience. So it's one of the first times where we start to have a different perspective of, oh, this isn't how everyone lives. And I think when you have that contrast and that comparison, like what we just said is the internalizing of what that means about us is big. Yeah.

Oh, you don't care. I'm not important enough. You're not interested in my life. Why? And then we create a story about that of, okay, well, you're not interested in my life because X, Y, Z. And then we live with that. Yeah. And it becomes internalized because as children, you don't know how to vocalize that feeling or even bring it into reality, right? So it's something that

I probably kept to myself until the past couple of years and started diving into that. So I think that's super interesting. In your book, you talk about this concept of firsts. Can you explain what that is and what that means? Yeah. So the book, The Origins of You, it's,

It's the first time. And I know sometimes people get caught up, like, I don't remember the first time. So if it's not the first, it's you work your way back, right? Maybe what's the last time or just the first time that you remember. But yeah, these firsts that change the trajectory, the course of our lives, right? That first time that a parent says that they're going to pick you up from school and they forget to pick you up. Yeah.

Like the first time, right? Like that literally happened to me. I'm like, is she like, can she see my brain right now? Yeah, but right. It's like these, these things that shh,

shift something within us, right? And so I talk in the book about five origin wounds, worthiness, belonging, prioritization, safety, and trust. And it's important because it's like the first time we questioned our worthiness, the first time we questioned our belonging, the first time we questioned our priority in the family, the first time we questioned trust in

and safety. Those five things, when I sat down, I was like, what are all the wounds that everybody in the world could possibly have? And I had a big list of things and ultimately felt like the human experience kind of falls into one of these five or many of these five. There's many people who are like, I think I have all five wounds. I read them and I was like, I'm checking every box. And that's it, right? Like the first time

that something shifted us away from knowing that we were worthy, knowing that we belonged, knowing we were a priority to the important people in our lives, knowing that we could trust people in the world around us, knowing that we were safe emotionally, physically, sexually, psychologically, mentally. Right.

right? And that's the question, right? And some things might be very obvious as you're listening right now. Like, oh yeah, I know exactly where this happened. And there might be an acute moment that stands out or it might be one of those things that's just the like,

subtle day in and day out. Sometimes it's explicit, sometimes it's implicit, but it's something that we either experience through our own experience or through observation. So sometimes we'll maybe see it play out. Like why might we have a trust wound? Because there was a parent who was deceitful, not necessarily to me, but maybe to the other adult.

in the family repeatedly, right? And so we're looking for both experience and for observation and where it just cuts the tie between being a human in this world where we feel a real beautiful connection to our worthiness and belonging and all of the other wounds that I have listed in the book.

It makes me think of also our firsts as young adults, like maybe when we go to college and have our first relationship or, you know, whatever it may be. I know for me going to college, it was a lot of firsts. And I think the thing that's a little concerning or sad about American culture is how

crazy the college experience can be and how diluted it is by alcohol. Like I really think that that's such a big part of it. And a lot of our firsts as young adults are not the healthiest, maybe. Our first relationships can be really explosive and, um,

You know, I just think about the way our memories are formed around that time. And there's a lot of shame that comes with that, too. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Like when I talk about the origins of you, sometimes people will get stuck thinking, OK, four or five, six, you know, it's like, no, no, no. Like your firsts could have happened last week.

Right? And that's very important. Even though, yes, most of my work is really about understanding how we grew up in our family systems. And that is the main focus. It's very important for us to really think, ah, but sometimes the first are at, you know, 25. This like first rupture happens.

in safety could have happened at 25. You might have felt entirely safe growing up in your family system. Beautiful, right? And then maybe there is a rupture that happens in your mid-20s or your early 30s, right? And so it's very important to see that and to spend time with it. And maybe, you know, a lot of times it's like there's the first and then there's the subsequent events that also reinforce

that you don't feel worthy, that you are not valuable, that you're not someone who can feel safe or trusting in this world. And we have to bring attention to that. But yes, I find that it's very important to see where that first rupture happened. And I guess sometimes those wounds only really show up when you are in an intimate relationship. So maybe you had...

an abandonment issue from your childhood that really shows itself in your first romantic relationship, for example. Absolutely. And what's interesting about wounds is that they're not all created the same way, meaning you and I could have the same exact thing happen to us and the way that we internalize it might be for you a worthiness wound, but for me a prioritization wound.

And that's what can feel tricky, right? Where people are like, wait, which box do I fit in? You don't, right? This is about you understanding the way that you experienced whatever it is that happened and then how you have internalized it from there. So right, an abandonment wound, somebody leaves,

a parent up and leaves when you were whatever, five years old. And you might say, okay, well, this person left because I wasn't important enough for them to stick around. And I might say, this person left and now I cannot trust anybody in the world who's close to me to stay. And so where you go with it and where I go with it can be entirely different. But that's the work is to understand the things that happened

the big, medium, small, whatever it is, how those things get internalized and what stories we create from it. And then how those stories keep showing up in our lives in different ways, different patterns. That's what I said before, right? Pain is really clever. It's going to find lots of different ways to bring us into this work, to resolve, to spend time with the thing that ruptured our relationships.

with worthiness, trust, safety, belonging, prioritization. That makes me think of siblings and the ways that siblings come out of an experience completely differently. Totally. Super interesting. In your book, you said, our past might create our patterns, but we can change those patterns for the better with the right tools. What are some common patterns you see in adult behavior and how do they relate back to the family system? Okay, cool.

conflict. Okay. Like fear of conflict? It can be fear of conflict, but also the way that you engage in conflict. I'll share a personal story. It's another story with my partner, which like you said, our intimate relationships, the gift that keeps on giving. I remember being in a conflict with

my husband, and I have no clue what we were fighting about, but I remember that I could not stop proving my point. I couldn't stop like needing to be right. And what I do remember is that he was like, I got it. I understand. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Understood. And I kept doubling down and tripling down. I just kept going. And I had an out of body moment where I was like, oh my God,

stop. This is really not becoming of you. And eventually it stopped. And I did kind of go into a bit of a shame spiral. I was like, wow, that was not attractive. And I kind of had this fear that maybe he would not want to be in the relationship anymore. This was before we were married. And I hung out there for a moment and then I replaced it with curiosity. I was like, okay,

what, why do I need to be right? Why is that so important to me? And it brought me back to my family of origin. I write about this in the book, but I grew up with a father who at the time was very manipulative. He was a gaslighter before this term became, you know, popular. He

Yeah, he was very quick with his words and it was very crazy making for my mom. I don't use that term lightly, but it was very crazy making for her. And I remember watching it, you know, I really observed this dynamic. It wasn't directed at me, but it was directed at her over and over and over again.

And what I saw is someone who was, whoever was quick with their words and he was always right and she was always wrong, right? That that meant like power and control and really ultimately safety. Because if I'm not losing my mind,

okay, then I am safe. But if I am losing my mind and if I am wrong, right, then I'm unsafe. And I remember in this curiosity, really linking into that to be like, oh, okay, I see, right? There was so much compassion for myself because I really understood that my need to be right, my need to prove my point was actually a protective strategy. It was something that was designed to make me feel safe in conversations and conflict and relationships. And I was very skilled at...

becoming right. Part of, you know, the skillset that I got from having a father who operated in the world that way was that I remember details and I don't miss a beat. And I like know everybody's story and I know everything that's been said. And I track that very well. It makes me a very good therapist. But we know that the gifts, a dear friend and colleague of mine says that our pain and our gifts are next door neighbors.

right. There it is. And, and that's when the pain is showing up, right? It's like presenting as a gift, you know, but it's like, oh, I need to be right. I need to prove that you're right. It's like, uh, when the pain is showing up that way, it's a disconnector in relationships. And,

And so, yeah, like that to me was such a beautiful example of why am I behaving this way? I know that this isn't a good way to behave. I don't want to be this way. I had enough awareness to know that, but I didn't understand until I replaced shame with curiosity to say, okay, but

why, what about this behavior is protecting me from something? And that's a beautiful question for everybody to ask, right? If you can have that awareness of like, ooh, here's something that I do that's not super great, okay.

whatever it might be, right? Like why I choose the same types of partners, why I have the fight in the way that I do, why I promise I'm going to set this boundary and then I never set this boundary and I don't follow through with it. Like instead of just what's wrong with me, like I was saying before, right? That curiosity of what, in what way is this behavior trying to protect me from something?

And there's going to be an answer there because we make sense, right? Our stories make sense when we have the context. Now it doesn't say, okay, then continue. I couldn't keep behaving that way and probably have a relationship, right? Like that would be exhausting to be with somebody who needs to be right all of the time, right? But it was at least an introduction to, ah, there's the point. I need to heal this more so that I can place that down when we are having a conversation about something. Yeah. Right.

I love that tool that you used of taking the pause and having curiosity there, because I think a lot of people are maybe aware that they have these unhealthy habits, but don't know how to take the step back and fix it. For me, hypervigilance has been a huge problem for me my whole life. I overread facial expressions. I over listen to voice tones. I'm

constantly kind of putting myself in the mind of whoever I'm with. And even footsteps is something that is triggering for me, honestly. Trust and safety. Yes. Constantly aware of my surroundings to the point where I'm like living in fear almost. And it's something that I've become more and more aware of, but it's difficult when you, I guess you become so tied to

to the pattern itself. You're like, oh, that's who I am. Like that's part of my personality. And as you said, it's brought me a lot of my gifts at the same time. I'm a good friend. It makes me a better interviewer. I'm better at my job because I pick up on how people are feeling and the way I need to talk to them or maybe, you know, the encouragement that they're needing. What would you recommend in a situation like that for hypervigilance or people who are living in someone else's mind? Yeah. And one, just because you heal doesn't mean you lose your gift.

That's important. I like that. It's very important because I think sometimes people are like, ah, will I no longer read people's faces or will I not be as attuned or will I, you know, not see the things that I need to see? So that's very important. But yeah, the hypervigilance tends to be a response to a trust wound or a safety wound. Yeah.

And those go so hand in hand almost, right? It's like it's very uncommon to have a trust wound without a safety wound also or a safety wound without a trust wound because they both get ruptured when, you know, even if one is primary, they do both get ruptured generally simultaneously. The hypervigilance...

You want to see if it's destructive in your life, right? Because there's many things where the gift is very good. It benefits something. But I think, can you tell me actually, if you don't mind, where you see it destructive? Oh, I find that when I'm with my partner or really anyone, I have a hard time being present because I'm so aware of other conversations happening near me. I even enter relationships

situations really, really anxious because maybe someone looks like they're not interested in what I'm saying or I see that they're upset and I start overcompensating and changing the way I'm presenting. Yeah, right. Exactly. And I don't know if you grew up in a family system where you had to scan people and how they were feeling and what they were experiencing and okay, I have to scan this to know which version of me I need to present.

to make sure that everybody's okay or everybody, we're happy or, you know, and so you're very good at adjusting yourself based on how people are showing themselves to you. And right, it's like,

It robs something from you. And it's, this is not a quick, there isn't a quick solution to this, right? Because it lives in your body that way and you've experienced it and however you've experienced it. But this idea that I think in what you're saying is I would really like to be able to be present with you.

with people. And I think also the role of doing some of that emotional caretaking for others, it's almost building up the tolerance that if somebody is in a particular mood, that that is for them to be with and that it's not your job to find the solution for them and do that caretaking for them as an adult.

It sounds like maybe as a kiddo, there was a point where, I don't know if somebody asked you to do that or if you just kind of found yourself in that role on your own, but you moved into that space and probably did a good job of affecting the dynamic in some way to get what was easier or more palatable at times. And I think that idea to...

exist in a space where someone is upset or exist in a space where someone is moody or exist in a space where somebody doesn't want to be there or they're frustrated by something. And to let somebody else have that experience without you needing to solve that for them is something, it's like a muscle that you have to strengthen and build, right? But I think it's the fear of what the outcome is going to be. If I don't do this, what will happen is what?

And that feels intolerable to us. And so you will trade presence for safety each time. Because right now that is more important for you. But it is interesting when you put it that way. It's like, what will happen if I don't? Yes.

I mean, nothing that bad would really happen. Like maybe I would make the other person feel a little bit more uncomfortable, but you know. But it's not a logical thing. Right. You know, that's always it is like, you can't solve emotional problems

pain with logical solutions, right? Like, sure, you know this, we could sit here and be like, they're fine. Like they're an adult. They'll figure it out. Right. It's like, it's okay. But for you inside, it is on fire. Yeah. Yeah. Like for you inside, it is a death, you know, like it is actually significant. And that's right now is just the acknowledgement of, okay, I'm

yeah, I'm noticing this. It's beautiful that you have the awareness, right? It's that I'm noticing this, I'm seeing it right now. I'm going to choose to trade a little bit of presence for trying to make this person feel a little bit more welcomed or comfortable or whatever it is. But like bringing the awareness and the intention of like, at least knowing what it is that you're doing, because you're not ready to just

release it entirely, it would be too unsafe and too much of a dramatic shift for your system to do that. But the beauty is, is that if you continue to spend more time with where the origins of that

Then I think we start to gradually build up that tolerance that says, it's never fun to be around someone who is maybe feeling the way that you perceive them to be feeling. And if I can make it a little bit better, that's nice thing to do, okay? But it's gonna build the tolerance that says, I don't need to be in this role with this person and I can still feel safe here. And it has to happen that way because you cannot trade the safety. You won't.

You can't. So almost a part of it is just accepting it. Yeah, but I think part of the acceptance, you know, comes from spending more time with the original pain of...

who you had to be as a child or a teenager, which relationships you were scanning, like, oh, which version of mom is coming? I don't know what it is, but who do I have in front of me? Who do I need to be? Am I being fun and cheery and complimentary? Do I need to be this way to get them to get out of bed? How do I take care of...

dad, so he's not so depressed, right? It's like, there's so many things that we do and it's spending time sort of witnessing that role and grieving what has to be grieved around that so that we can then start to pivot

and choose differently when we're in our present day lives, right? It's really, we need to be with the history a little bit differently so that we can actually start choosing to place something down in those moments because you cannot just logically find your way through it, even though you know that it's not gonna make a huge difference, but your body is telling you safe, unsafe, safe, unsafe, safe, unsafe. And if it feels unsafe, then you're not going to participate the way that you say you want to.

Yeah, it really is such a body reaction. Like that's the thing. Even as a grown adult with a business and I've done all these things, I still find myself in conversations or difficult situations where I'm physically having issues

a reaction that I mentally wish that I wouldn't, you know, and I think acknowledging that's really helpful. Yeah. I think a lot of people, I hear this all the time, are struggling with people pleasing. I feel like we're a generation of people pleasers for some reason. How do we go about fixing that? And I also want to ask you about boundaries because I think they kind of go hand in hand. So, okay, people pleasing, there's the trade, there's a, um,

There's a line from a poem that I absolutely love. I remember when I read it the first time that it just like struck me in such a way. It says, it's from The Dreamer. It says, I wanna know if you can disappoint another to stay true to yourself.

And I remember reading it and like rereading it and being like, I don't know how to do that, right? Like, I don't know how to disappoint somebody else to stay true to myself because what happens when I properly please people is good. And I have learned to trade myself consistently over and over and over again in so many ways, right? So that I can have the environment around me that I want, right?

Right. And so when we're like the people pleasing, I will, I will please you at the expense of me.

That does not mean that we don't please people and do kind things. I think sometimes we swing into these extremes, like stop being a people pleaser does not mean treat people terribly. It just means that we are honoring ourselves, that we are fully aware of ourselves, and that we are going to not choose to please other people at the expense of ourselves.

So at minimum, I want to think about you and me equally. I want to care about what your experience is while I also care about what my experience is. And sometimes I might say, if it's a dear friend and I'm really tired, but it's their birthday, I'm gonna say, okay, I'm gonna choose even though I could go to bed early and that would probably be the right thing for me.

But I love you. I'm going to move into this space because in the context, it makes a lot of sense, right? But if it's something that we're doing regularly and consistently, right? It's like, it's at the expense of ourselves. Now, the question is, what do we learn that pleasing gets us? When I successfully please others, what is it that I stabilize for myself, right?

The home is peaceful. Somebody's happy. There's less conflict. If I'm pleasing in this way, or if I'm performing, you used that word before too, right? It's like, if I'm showing up perfectly, whatever that means, right? Like these are the conditions of love, connection, validation, attention, peace, calm in the family, right?

And so this idea of like, okay, how do I stop people pleasing? Well, again, the tolerance level of it is okay for people to be upset with me or it is okay for people to be disappointed with me or it's okay for people to, yeah, like dislike or not agree with the decision. And that's okay.

But when we zoom in to say, but what happens when people are disappointed with you? What happens when people disagree with you? What happens when people are upset with you? Okay, so now if, because I grew up with this too, my dad would give me the silent treatment. Okay.

Okay. So if I disappointed, if I wasn't pleasing, then I would get the silent treatment for days or weeks. Okay. And so I started to learn like, ooh, this isn't good. This doesn't feel good. Now I would like, I was definitely stubborn at the time. So I would...

you know, go silent treatment for silent treatment. But I think what's so important about that inquiry is that you can't just tell people, stop being a people pleaser and like, let's just change that out. We have to understand what we associate with those things. And so if I am not being a people pleaser, then here's what's happening. And what do I know about then what happens to me after that too, if that's what's there? If I've now disappointed you, what do I know about disappointing people?

I get the silent treatment. What do I know about upsetting somebody? They get vicious and call me names.

What do I know about that? That people leave and they no longer want to be in relationship with me and they end a friendship or they end the relationship, right? It's like, we're so scared of having the things happen, right? Those things happen. And that's what keeps us stuck in that role of pleasing because we cannot tolerate the idea that somebody might be, okay, sure, the first stop is upset, disappointed, but the second stop

might be that they're going to punish me or they're going to leave me or they're going to hate me or they're going to abuse me or they're going to do something. And so that's when I say it's like, sometimes people are like, I just want to stop doing this thing. And we have to really understand the underworkings, like the underbelly of it all, because the reason why we keep doing the same stuff that we're doing is because it is protecting us from something.

Our systems are brilliant. We're very smart, even if we don't understand what it is that we're actually doing. And so it is vital that we ask those questions instead of just saying, I should do this or I shouldn't do that. Right. It's like, okay, what about the way that I'm engaging in the world and relationship with my friends, my partner, with a colleague, right? Is, is even though I don't want to be doing it in what way is it protecting me from something? And

And I will tell you that a lot of the time it's going to come back to understanding what it is that we were taught and what we saw in our family systems.

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Good luck. It also feels like there's a huge loss of identity in all of these unhealthy habits or unhealthy or, you know, habits that we adopt over the years. Because if you keep prioritizing other people and you're so in the minds of others or wrapped up in these patterns, you kind of forget that.

who you are and what you actually want. I mean, I know I've experienced that over the years. Yeah, there's a full disconnection from self. There has to be. Because when we're doing any of that, we are trading self for the outcome that we want.

It happens a lot with the belonging wound. This idea that, you know, Gabor Mate talks about how attachment and authenticity are like basically the two lifelines for a child. But when attachment is threatened, they're going to trade authenticity every time.

I need to be close to you. It's for our survival, really, especially when we're babies and very young. But even as we grow, it's like we learn that we have to trade who we are. Be a little less this, be a little more that. Believe this, don't believe that. Families have a way of being, a way of doing.

If you want to be a part of this family, this is what we do. This is how we believe. And there's beautiful parts to it, like family traditions, holidays, et cetera. But then there's also things that say like, but this is what we believe. And if you don't believe what we believe, then you're out. And so when you're a child, you shift because you want to be in.

Right? Yeah. And same thing with conditional love, right? Like all of the wounds, it's like, who do I need to be in order to get the thing that I need? Whether it's safety, whether it's love, whether it's worthiness, whether it's validation, who do I need to be? But in that process, we have to disconnect from who we are. Because if we're not accepted and loved and chosen as we are, then we're

We constantly are disconnecting from self. And so, yes, part of this work is what does it look like to reclaim that or meet the self for the first time?

Like how can I start to exist in the world where I get to be who I am? And that's always changing, right? Who am I? That is constantly changing and that's constantly updating. But where do I not need to hide? Where do I not need to fake? Where do I not need to lie, deceive? In what ways can I just be as I am and exist in the world and relationships in that way? And I think for so many people would not grow up in a system

where there was a lot of permission to do that. What advice would you have for refinding our authentic selves? I think it's helpful to understand what stripped it away from us in the first place. You know, I think that's why for me, the origin work is so important. It's like, okay,

We once were, right? Like you come into the world. I want to know who I was before everything, you know? And, you know, I think that you hear people talk like the unlearning process, but I think there's something like, is there a moment or are there a series of moments, events that had to disconnect me from who I am? Yeah.

And I think just even sometimes in the simplest of ways, you know, how we are when people say like, how are you? Fine. You know, it's like those things where we don't actually slow down to say, how am I? What am I experiencing today? Or in this moment, even not even today, that can sometimes feel too big.

or you're drinking a coffee or you're having a meal, like do you actually enjoy it? You know, like not skipping over. Sometimes we just have to slow down to be like, what about this moment is beautiful? What about this moment is hard? What about this moment do I really love? What about this moment don't I love? How come, right? Like,

even just like slowing into the mundane moments. They don't even have to be special moments. Like you're eating your lunch, slow down. Do you like it? How do you know? Is it just okay? How do you know? So sometimes it's just in the like little things, I think are one of the best places to start with that because the idea of like, who am I can feel so big when we're like,

I have no clue, but I can slow down and say, what do I like about this moment? What was joyful about this moment? What was hard about this moment? And begin to reflect and really tune into what you feel in your body. So that's a good place to start.

And I feel like in order to do that, getting off the phone is really important. Like being in the present moment, thinking about, I had a therapist suggest to me, literally count your steps going up the stairs. Look around. What do you smell? What do you see? What do you hear? I feel like so many of us would benefit from putting the technology away and just being in our bodies. Absolutely. Absolutely.

current day, what's actually happening in front of me? I love, you know, if you go for a walk, you know, what are five things you can hear? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those, those types of things that just bring us into our senses. Right.

Right. And the sensations. It's so powerful. Yeah, the phone, you know, obviously it does wonders in some ways, but it's such a disconnector from self and from other. We know that. And I think part of this is putting it down intentionally, putting everything down intentionally to be with self or be with other.

And right now we're talking about being with self. And so I think carving out, even if you just go out for 30 minutes, 10 minutes, even if 30 feels too much, start with two minutes. I don't care what you do, but just begin somewhere where you put everything down and you are just trying to feel into what it is like to be in the experience of you. Moving forward, how do we not traumatize our kids and break the generational trauma? I think that's

sort of the motivator out of all of this is how can I create the healthiest family environment that I can? Yeah. How do I be better? I'm a mama and so I know this one dearly and I've always said that what we can do is to continue resolving that which is unresolved. It's the greatest, greatest gift that we're able to give our children. We're not going to create environments or

or a lifetime without anything in it. It just will not happen. Our children will, I mean, listen, as parents, obviously we want to try to protect them as much as we can from the big stuff, but ultimately they're going to come face to face with things that are going to be hard and we're going to participate in that to some degree. And hopefully it's in a small way, but we are going to participate in that. And they are going to be on their therapist's sofa at some point in the future.

probably talking about one of these wounds. I'm like, which wound is my son going to have? Which one is it? And, you know, it's, it's, it's,

part of this is that they cannot exist in a vacuum. Part of their work here, I think too, all of us is to resolve something. You know, they're not coming here just to coast on by. That's not what the work is while you're on planet earth for however much time you get here. And so the real answer though, to this for me is that you keep resolving your

your own stuff so that there's less for them to have to resolve through the chain. And also you are going to pass something. But as a parent,

And as a wise, hopefully adult, emotionally mature individual, right? Like it's not so much about the rupture itself. It's about the repair. And I think that ownership, that acknowledgement, that ability to say, I'm so sorry. I see how this impacted you. That piece is so vital and maybe full circle moment, you know, to be able to work on that piece

Our humanness doesn't mean that we have to go into a place of shame.

When I said before, you have to hold yourself up. You have to. And that's why when we go into this place of like canceling people and being so like unforgiving of it, it's like, no, we're human, okay? And we have to be able to hold ourselves in that way to say, okay, I made a mistake or I let you down. I've disappointed you. I did something that was really hurtful to you, right? And I need to be able to receive the feedback, right?

right? To hear that I've hurt you, that I've let you down without that meaning that I am a terrible human or a terrible mother, or that I have like somehow destroyed your life, right? It's like, no, I can know that I am a good human, that I'm a good mom, and that I'm human. And that in my humanness, something happened here that I have to listen to and repair with you. And that happens so much more easily when we're not combating shame.

Wow, really well said. And I think to be able to have the conversation that maybe we are not able to have with our parents would be so healing. I don't have kids yet, but I like planning ahead. So it's nice to hear this advice. And I can imagine how healing that would be to kind of have that acknowledged. And I would love to be someone that isn't defensive to the point where I'm not able to acknowledge someone else's experience. So yeah, that's great advice.

Now it's time for the question we ask every guest. I started this podcast because I believe everyone's pursuit of wellness looks different. What does wellness mean to you? Yeah, I mean, for me, it's many things. It absolutely is the continued commitment to resolving the pain from the past. You know, I think for me, that is where wisdom and maturity come

grows from. Nature is really important to me that is so linked with wellness. The routine is very linked for me and I happen to really enjoy the use of senses. I mentioned this a little bit before, but for me,

I remember, you know, life looks a little bit different than it did years ago. Not just because I have a child, but obviously the pandemic, I used to walk to work every day, walk back from work. Now my commute is a 15 second staircase up and down. So it's a little bit different. But when I was before working from home, I would...

walk home and I would get into the apartment and I would use scent. So I'd maybe put a diffuser on or light some Palo Santo or something like that. So I'd play with scent. I'd put music on. Piano music for me was something that shifted for me something. And then touch, I would change my clothes and shift that. So those three senses for me were very important. And that is still something that I do, even though my commute is much shorter and I am

greeted by a little human who's ready to go and ready to play. But it is still very important for me to play with those senses and get scent and touch and sound going. And for me, there is a wellness piece to that because it lets me, I call it de-rolling, R-O-L-E, right? Is de-rolling. It shifts the role. It shifts the hat that I'm wearing. It lets me know that it's time for

playfulness and it's time to connect and put some of those things down and just be deeply present. And so that has been a very important practice that I have. So yeah, those are some of the things. I love that. Great mindfulness advice.

Where can people find you and your book online? Yeah, so books, book any place that books are sold, The Origins of You, How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love. I'm on Instagram at mindfulmft as in marriage family therapy. And there you can find all of the things that I have going on. I highly recommend you guys check it out. You have a great Instagram page. Congratulations on the book. And thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me.

The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, talk to your doctor or health team. Thank you for listening to today's episode. Go comment on my last Instagram at Mari Llewellyn with the guest you want to see next.

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