The Unreal Housewife: Ep. 8, Jen Shah - An intersection of True Crime & Reality TV
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I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is Queen of the Con, The Unreal Housewife, Episode 8, a bonus episode. She's running that joint.

In this episode, I talk to Housewives connoisseur Kate Casey, host of the podcast Reality Life with Kate Casey, and Veteran Real Housewives producer Carlos King, host of the Reality with the King podcast. We fuss and discuss all the craziness Jen Shah is up to now in prison and the fact that she's not the only housewife pretending to be wealthier than she is.

And Kate and Carlos also give me their best predictions on what happens to Jen Shaw after prison. Enjoy. Carlos King, it's our first time meeting. I'm so impressed with you. You produced on Real Housewives, New Jersey, and Atlanta. Yes. Are you shaking? What are you shaking? That is my protein shake. Because I need to make sure that I am fueled to do the job.

Yes. All right. What was it like producing on Real Housewives New Jersey, Real Housewives Atlanta? You know, producing both of those shows...

Looking back on it, it was very, very, very fun, but also very challenging. But when you're a new producer, you just are happy you have the gig. And for me, The Real Housewives of Atlanta was my first foray into reality television. So I was just happy to have a job in reality TV. And then my first time on set, the producer said to me, you're going to be assigned to NeNe Leakes.

And the rest is history in terms of our relationship and our friendship. Jersey was the same thing. They said, you're assigned Teresa Giudice and Daniel Stobb. I'm like, okay. So it goes to show you that I was the person who had to handle strong, opinionated women.

And it allowed me to stretch my muscle in telling women's stories and to have the career that I have today. And what were the Real Housewives like in your experience? How real were they? Oh, very real. You have to think about it. The Real Housewives of Atlanta debuted in October of 2008. At that time, the only big reality shows were The Hills and Laguna Beach, which was

A lot of people at the time, even now, would say it was soft scripting. Is this show real? The Real Housewives brand from the inception has always been to follow the reality and to showcase these women in their real form. These women did not have any sort of person to idolize to say, I want to be that person. They truly were being authentic. So what you saw was women who were truly being themselves. Teresa

I think you can see 13 years later, Teresa is still Teresa and Nene is still Nene. Very big, very bold, very loud, very opinionated. So it was the greatest example of how reality show works in the sense of you always have to cast women who are able to go during their personal story. And these women went there. And I'll ask each of you this. What's your take on overall on Jen Shah?

Jen Shaw, to me, personified a...

a savvy viewer who studied every frame of Real Housewives and plotted an opportunity for them to become a housewife. I think the minute someone got word that the Real Housewives was looking at Salt Lake City, her antennas went up and she was like, I'm bringing my A game. I think she's like the perfect housewife in terms of

Somebody who really believes, well, where have the cameras been my whole life? Like, of course you're going to film me. Even though they're not a celebrity, they may not have built like an incredible business. There's not something that's spectacular in terms of their life success or career success. They still believe, well, of course cameras would follow me. I'm such an incredible person. She kind of is that personality for me. So yeah,

When you started to watch her on camera, you thought, I think she's overdoing it. And sometimes when you watch a movie, you think someone's overacting. She was almost overdoing it in terms of a reality star.

The first time I knew she was completely bombastic was when I realized she was living in a rental home and she had nailed shelving units into the wall. I thought, you're a monster. Who rents a house and nails shelving into the walls? Somebody who believes they don't need to live by other people's rules. And was that publicized that she was renting? Because I thought she was trying to portray as if she owns the place.

Actually, during the first season, it was A Real Housewife of Dallas.

on their podcast that noted, well, I have a friend who owns the house that Jen Shaw is renting right outside of Salt Lake City. And then everybody, it spread like wildfire. And once that happens in the Real Housewives ecosystem, then the vultures come out and they will pick apart every detail of your life. And if you are presenting yourself as someone who's wealthy and you are not,

God bless you because people don't take that to that lightly.

Carlos, your take on Jen Shah. I agree with everything Kate just said. I will say this. She's fascinating. She's a star. Kate's right. There's a handful of women who were born to be on television. And Jen Shah was born to be on TV. Not necessarily prison in my mind at the time, but she was born to be on television. She is an attractive woman with a big personality, um,

um she has the type of bravado and arrogance that makes a great housewife but she also had this sort of lifestyle that you thought was real at the time and i think jen shaw represents the new age of reality stars because jonathan you asked me earlier how was nini and theresa were they real in 2008 yes

But in 2020 beyond, the newer housewives started to become a caricature of the icons. Jen Shaw wanted to be the Teresa Giudice of Salt Lake City.

And we did not know she would go that far as to being somebody who also was going to go to a timeout or camp, as Teresa calls it. So we didn't know to that degree she was, you know, mocking her idol. But Jen Shaw had to fake it in order to make it dot, dot, dot on a housewife show. Yeah, that's so interesting because in a sense...

while she's running these telemarketing scams, she's simultaneously, in a way, scamming Bravo because she was not anything she appeared to be. She didn't own the house. She leased the cars, the Fendys, the Louis Vuittons, fake, fake, fake. She was a fake real housewife pretending to be really wealthy. Not to say that she wasn't wealthy, but she certainly wasn't as wealthy as she portrayed. Otherwise, she would

Own the homes, but our legal analyst who we interviewed throughout the podcast the amazing Emily D Baker said it's by design almost that she doesn't own a home or own anything because she knows they're coming for her one day and She knows if you own a home or you're saving a ton of money within the United States They're gonna take that the feds are gonna take that and give it to the victims as restitution So we theorized maybe she has all this stuff offshore in Kosovo somewhere because she doesn't own much and

I have to say, I think you're incorrect in saying that she was swindling the network, making them believe she's wealthy.

That's what makes her a great star is that they know she's not wealthy, but she's presenting herself. That makes an interesting character. If you go to a dinner party and you see someone dripping in luxury, and then you start talking to them and you find out that they work in telemarketing, you start to go, well, that doesn't really add up. That makes someone fascinating because the longer they're on television, the more the layers get peeled back of the onion. And that makes a great story. So it's,

It's not actually true that the network is somehow scammed by all of these women. They know exactly who they are, and that is why they are chosen to be on the show. They wanted it. Let's be very clear. Jen Shah is not the only housewife who is faking it today. If I had to do a ratio, I would say more than 50% of current housewives are leasing cars. It's the name of the game because I create shows, I produce shows, right?

When it comes to the Real Housewives brand, it's affluent. It's a certain lifestyle. You can't live in a middle-class neighborhood, right? Drive a Nissan Altima, be a school teacher who takes out the trash themselves every Thursday morning and

and become a housewife. You just can't. You just can't. You could be on 90 Day Fiance. You can be married at first sight, but you cannot be a real housewife. A real housewife has a certain...

order of affluence that you need and these women who are dying for attention and relevance and fame, they will become broke and bankrupt in order to have 15 minutes of fame.

I had no idea. So before this season of Queen of the Con on Jen Shaw, I've never watched an episode of Housewives. Only because I'm a reality producer and all the shows, I worked on a couple similar types of shows and they were very heavily staged. And we'd do multiple takes and we'd be like, hey, next time when you shout at her, look that way, you know, take two, take three. So

I always thought of The Real Housewives as one of those, but you're telling me it's more real than that. The beauty of Housewives is that

You take women who perceive themselves as very glamorous, royalty adjacent, and you put them in a room together. You don't actually have to do that much because all of them have such big personalities and they're so complicated that the intersection of those women creates the most interesting conversations. That's why Real Housewives is so important.

beloved by reality TV viewers because it's a window into a world that not many people know, a world of affluence. And whether it's real or it's faked, it's a window into a world that very few people get access to.

And from what the both of you are telling me, which is news to me, the majority of these women, it kind of attracts scammers to a certain degree. Well, but it's also affluent areas bring con artists. It's a perfect stage set for con artists because everyone seems to be wealthy. It's like it's a level playing field and no one really asks in-depth questions. It's a very surface level place.

So, no one's asking you, well, where did you go to school and what was your first job and did that company go public and who were the directors of those companies? It's questions like, do you have a boat? Are you a member of the Bay Club?

So no one actually asks anything. So very rarely will people's bullshit story be unraveled. It's sort of like, imagine Bernie Madoff's wife. Do you know what I mean? On paper, a quintessential housewife archetype married to this affluent man, super rich, super wealthy, has a boat, has a private plane.

If that person on paper came across your desk and you were casting them, she would be cast just based on what's happening on paper. But to Kate's point, you don't dig deep in terms of asking the public questions as if you were part of the FBI. But look, that's not our job. That's not our job. And that's the reason why you can't blame networks, production companies, producers, because we're

We're not asking you to show two proofs of income, a W-2 income tax that dates back to two years in order to be on the show because for us, it's all about do you fit the quintessential standard for this particular program? And if you have what it takes to showcase that on a Zoom call, then honey, you have the job. But I also think people, it's just the way, it's human nature

the way the humans operate, rich people attract friends. So if you're a horrible person, but you have a lot of things, people want to be your friend. Now, if you live in a shack and you have a degree and you're interesting and you like to talk about political theory, probably don't have many friends in an affluent area. But if you're horrible and you have like a Lamborghini and you have a house in Hawaii and you give parties where you have a to-go bag, you're going to have a lot of friends.

That is very true. Well put. During the entire criminal proceeding against Jen Shah, she was proclaiming her innocence to no end. How did you both handle that? Did either of you at any point think she was actually innocent? Did you think she was guilty the whole time? What was your process? I always thought

She was guilty. What I have learned is when the feds do that sort of deep dive of an investigation and they finally say, okay, you're about to become arrested, it's because it took them years in order to come to that conclusion. And it's hard to get out of. They're not going to run the risk of saying, we got it wrong here. That's what I was told. I'm not a lawyer. I don't pretend to be one. Don't cast me at all. So...

That's why I felt like, okay, it has to be true that she's guilty of this. But I will take it a step further. The one thing that annoyed me and made me upset as a Black person is when she tried to make it about race.

And she said, you know, and I took personal offense to that because we do know that there's this situation going on between law enforcement and people of color. It's real. It's true. It's been going on for years. Don't take something that is actually affecting this culture and apply it to your situation and to make it seem like they got it wrong and you're being targeted because

Because you're a woman of color. That alone bothered me because it's sort of like just admit to it. Or guess what? If you want to say you're innocent, that's fine. But please don't make it about race because there are people of color who are dealing with stuff where we are accused of crimes we did not commit. So that part bothered me.

I mean, that bothered me too. And I'm glad you brought that up. It was it, you know, and we profiled it throughout the podcast several times publicly. She would say it's because I'm a woman of color. I'm being falsely prosecuted. They're attacking me because I'm a woman of color. And it made me sick because I knew that's not true. And you bring up a brilliant point.

Nearly 100% of federal prosecutions end with a conviction. So you are correct. By the time the feds arrest you, you are guilty. They know it. They can prove it. They're confident. So that's interesting. You thought she was guilty from the get. Kate Casey, what about you? I thought she was guilty too. I thought it was absurd the way that she would berate other people for asking any question. That's usually like a red flag. Someone's done something. Yes, yes.

I thought that in particular, the way that she would manipulate the friendship of Heather Gay. Heather clearly is someone who grew up in a Mormon church. She felt abandoned by her church and therefore perhaps hangs on to friends longer than she should. And I felt like

Jen weaponized that. And I hate seeing relationships like that. So I don't like what she did to the people in her life who dared to ask questions. I mean, and that is a narcissist through and through. When you ask them something, they're offended and turn it back on you. How dare you?

Yeah. Wow. For, do you think Jen Shah is sorry, actually sorry for what she did? Or you think she's just sorry she got caught? I'll tell you a quote recently attributed to her. Quote, I'm committed to doing the work necessary to make my victims whole and prove worthy of a second chance. I've learned to focus on what I can and cannot control. Do you think she's actually sorry? No. No.

I think she's sorry that she's missing time away from her kids. I think she's sorry about that. I think she's sorry she's missing time away from the television show.

But I think someone like Jen Shah spends an enormous amount of time every day plotting, what am I going to do when I'm out of here? What can I pitch to my agent? What networks are going to be interested? The way she even posted on her Instagram a story about the woman that she came to jail with, Keshara. It's all part of this ongoing story of angst and pain. And there's a total disregard for the elderly victims themselves.

that lost their fortunes. People who have had health problems as the result of stress from losing all of their money. When there's a total disregard for the people that you've affected and it's all about you. No, I don't think she cares at all. Can you read that? Do you have that quote up nearby that Instagram?

Yeah, read it. It's so insane. It's important to know that it's a carousel. So there are actually like six slides on it. But she says, journal entry number two, Kashana, whose nickname is Special K, also surrendered with me yesterday. And this is from March 10th. We've kind of stuck together the first full day as we both walked in shocked, stunned, and scared, trying to figure out where we go from here. I would also just like to side note, I don't think she wrote this.

Today is Saturday. There is a 6 a.m. brown bag breakfast brought into the common area of our unit. I was so tired and didn't wake up, but Special K got one for me. She is kind, and there are not many kind people in this place. It had one piece of wheat bread, an apple, two packets of jelly, and a packet of instant oatmeal. I ate the piece of bread. A lady was offering instant coffee in the common area, but I didn't have a mug.

I save the apple and oatmeal packet in my locker since I don't go to the commissary until next Tuesday. If I get hungry, I can at least have something to eat. First of all, somebody on her staff that she still employs with whatever five cents she has in her bank account went on Canva to recreate a carousel based on entries that she emailed or gave to coach at a visit.

And she's like continuing this narrative like that. She's a victim. I don't give a shit. If you have one piece of wheat bread, how about the people have four Skittles in their bank accounts? Cause you screwed them over. She is relentless in the pursuit of making herself a victim and a martyr. And it's unbelievably whack job, but you know, that's the reason she was cast because she is melodramatic and

She is bombastic. She is delusional. And she is manipulative. And I think even in prison, she's still trying to manipulate anyone who's willing to listen. Carlos, your take? Is she sorry? No, listen, I don't think so. Because the thing is this, you have to have a sense of humility when you are accused of a crime that you did commit.

So when you first start off your statement saying, I'm innocent, I'm being targeted, racial profiling, that doesn't sound like a woman who's sorry for what she did, knowing she did it. Then when she pled guilty, she apologized to the victims and said, I knew what I was doing. I was wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

if she would have started off that statement when she first got accused of it, then I would have believed like, okay, you feel sorry for what you did. But I think you have to know the type of personality she is. And listen, I'm not judging her because that's not my job. I take her at face value in the sense of who I see on the show and who I see in interviews and whose behavior I witnessed. And I'm like,

I don't think there's anything about her, based on what I've seen, that reeks of a woman who's sorry for anything she's done. Outside of the crime, I think the way she behaves is because she believes that she is the best thing to happen to Salt Lake City. And she just has that arrogant personality.

I remember I was interviewing one of the housewives and the housewife kept saying, I'm so sorry. I keep getting a FaceTime from Jen Shaw. I said, well, like tell her you're in an interview. And I was witness to how captivated they all are to her.

I don't know. Maybe I should text her back. I'm like, you're in the middle of an interview. Are you kidding me? Later, I had a conversation with that same housewife. And I said, how can you be supportive of someone that does this and has obviously lied? And their response was, but she's so fun.

I mean, that hits it on the head, the power and the magic of every con artist. They're charismatic. They suck you in. They get you to like them. They get you to love them. And that's the coercive control they exert. Even in the face of accusations and evidence, people support her. Still, she's in jail and people support her. What I find so fascinating, I think you and I had this conversation, Kate, how Erika Jayne, for example—

who wasn't directly accused of stealing from the orphans and doing all the things that her husband, Tom Girardi, was allegedly accused of, right? She had no direct line into handling those alleged accusations, right?

She was guilty by proxy by being this man's wife who benefited from it by courtesy of private jets and glam squad and $50,000 glam squad day fees. But people said she's not likable. And they railroaded her and read her profile. When it came to Jen Shaw, who actually did the crime, like actually physically did it, people...

worship her. And I thought that was very strange because on one hand you have Erika Jayne who did not have her hands in it, so to speak.

But Jen Shaw did. But because Erika Jayne is so stoic, who really comes across like I am who I am, people dismissed her. But for Jen Shaw, because she's witty and she's fun and she's whimsical, it's like they gave her a pass. And I thought that was fascinating in terms of how the audience judges people based on their personality traits.

I also think there's a micro judgment too, because one is from Beverly Hills, where it's so out of people's realm of understanding their wealth versus Salt Lake City, which I think there's this mindset that it's a more down to earth place. Like Jen Shah's wealth seems far more relatable to someone like

Erika Jayne. So that's a part of it too. Another nuance to it. It's not relatable for most people to consider the highest paid plaintiff attorney who had multi-million dollar settlements and his pop star adjacent wife dripping in Cartier versus Jen Shah, who...

presented herself as almost like a stay-at-home mom who had a side business and a football coach husband. So of course the audience is going to feel more connected to Jen and her husband. That's far more relatable and more Americana than the plaintiff attorney. Very true. I hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah, a thousand percent. A thousand percent. So yeah, I'll ask again, what's Jen Shaw up to in federal prison?

She's running that joint. Despite this story of like there was one weak piece of bread in the bag, I don't believe that for one minute. I think she is running some scam there where people are giving her money. She's probably got a bunch of snacks in the pod. I think she did some statement where she said she's teaching other women how

ESL. I was like, wait, what? I just can't imagine her sitting and taking the time to listen to someone's personal story and to help them read. I think she's just running the whole place. She's running plays left and right. What do you think, Carlos?

I'm sorry. I think Kate is hilarious. I was actually envisioning what you were saying as you were talking about it. I actually, listen, I agree with you in the sense of I think she's running the joint. I think she's Big Ma from the movie Chicago, Queen Latifah's character. I think she is like, I'm Big Mama and what I say goes. Yeah.

Yes, I think she's pimping out the women. I think she definitely has so much money in her books, courtesy of other people's family members' donations. I think Jen Shaw, listen, the type of personality trait she has is...

She doesn't come across as a woman who is going to drown in her sorrows. I think she's going to make the best out of her situation, the best way she knows how, and that's by running the joint. I think she's a ruler. I think she has found her team. I think she has found, in the words of the strip club, don't ask me how I know this, but I think she's found her bottom bitch,

That's the woman. Right, Kate? She's found her bottom bitch, which is the woman who's like her right-hand person. I think she's like...

Kate said, I think she is the star of that prison. The minute she leaves, she's on the phone with her agent on standby. And she's like, I've got an idea for a script. I have an idea for this. We're going to do merch. She is plotting the entire time she's in there. Now she was sentenced and she's supposed to serve six and a half years. I'm sure that will be reduced. I'm going to say she walks out after four.

From what I've read, Jen Shaw, she's keeping a diary and selling subscriptions for her diary in prison. She's creating a Real Housewives of Bryan prison play with other inmates. She claims to be tutoring them. She recently completed an anger management course and reportedly said she wished she had this when she did The Housewives. Let's put...

let's put it this way. I would not be surprised if she made an appearance on love after lockup, like someone she's in a pod with is dating somebody from Idaho and she weasels her way into the plot line. And we see her next season on love after lockup, my friend Jen here. And they're like, she's like, everyone's amazing.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past her. If Josh Mangowitz and Keith Morrison show up into the Bryan jail to interview someone, she will figure out a way to be in it. It'll be an interview with somebody who murdered their husband and she'll somehow find her way an opportunity to also be interviewed.

I'm sure. Just a few days ago, it appears she posted on thread. I saw it. Yeah. And the post was, I hope everyone's Shawmazing. I mean, clearly that was one of her PR people because I don't think you can post from threads in prison. What's the strategy there? Like to keep in the public consciousness? Just to keep people talking. She's making calls. She's emailing. She takes every opportunity. She's like, keep my name in people's mouths.

But you know what? That's Real Housewives Strategy 101. Listen, you can take the girl off of Real Housewives, but the girl never leaves Real Housewives. No.

When Jen Shah gets out of prison in five or six years, do you think Bravo will have her back? I'll preface this with a quote from Andy Cohen, who was very supportive of Jen before she pled guilty and then was shocked when Jen pled guilty. And he said, I'm upset and I'm especially upset for her victims. I'm upset that she was accused. If you remember sitting there in the reunion show, she was so dogmatic about it. I felt, OK, let this woman have her day in court.

I'm extremely upset about what she said, because frankly, you get to know someone, you get to like them, you get to have a personal relationship and you work with someone and you want to cheer them on. And you hate to think that they're capable of this behavior. Andy Cullen is pissed that she's guilty. I think he's pissed for a hot minute because he thought that they were going to do an interview. And then she pulled out, which anybody who does a show can understand that.

In my opinion, if she serves her time, it says that she has had to forfeit $6.5 million, 30 luxury items, 78 counterfeit items. If she serves time and she does all those things, who cares if she goes back?

She served her time. I mean, if she's interesting enough, I mean, I would assume that's a storyline you want to chase. Like how do Heather and Meredith cope when she returns? What is her life like? Does she still have relationships with her kids? What about her family members? Because they certainly supported her too. I think they got swindled. I mean, yeah.

I think, of course, they're going to follow that storyline. Will people embrace her the same way? I don't know. Unfortunately, in the world we live in, if you're funny and you look like you have carry a nice bag, they might. No, I do agree. I think, listen, I do think she'll be asked back. I think she'll be asked back.

I think in terms of a PR move, they may say, come back as a friend and earn your housewife title. I 1,000% think she'll come back. You want to follow the story. I'm being very honest. I'm going to watch to see how she is. Am I going to watch the entire season? I don't know. But am I curious enough to see who she's become after prison? Abso-freaking-lutely, I'm going to watch to see that. And the difference between her and Teresa is,

is at the end of the day, I think almost every woman

especially every, almost every housewife understood that, okay, I can understand how Teresa were signing her name on papers that she wasn't aware what she was signing as, as, as a housewife and a woman's husband, you do trust your husband. And I think there was empathy for Teresa because again, it wasn't, no one believes Teresa knew what was going on. I think a lot of people understand that Teresa was bamboozled by her husband. And like most,

women, not all but most, if the husband puts the papers in front of you, hey babe, this is our income tax, sign your name here, they're going to do it without questions asked. But that's why Teresa was able to come back and the show became bigger. They put the show on pause for Teresa. I think Jen Shaw would have to earn her housewife title, but I do agree with Kate. I think you haven't seen the end of Jen Shaw. If, if

Salt Lake City lasts the next four years. But if it doesn't come back, there'll be some other show.

She will be on reality television shows for the rest of her life. If it's Marriage Boot Camp, if it's the Food Network Smackdown, How to Make a Casserole, she will find a way. I assure you. With one wheat bread, Kay. How to Make a Casserole with one wheat bread. Yes. That will be the Smackdown on the Food Network. What to do with one piece of wheat bread, an apple, and an instant oatmeal pack. And it will become full circle. She'll get that on t-shirts. Yes.

That's going to be the shirt she leaves the jail in. One piece of wheat bread and says that. That's the merch line right there. Yep. Sounds like something she'd do for sure. And FYI, already Jen Shaw's six and a half year federal prison sentence has been reduced by an entire year. She's now scheduled to be released August 30th, 2028.

Thank you for listening to this season of Queen of the Con. If you're new to the podcast, we have three previous seasons about three distinctly different con queens you can binge. Season one, The Irish Heiress, chronicles how con artist Mare Smith tricked her way into my life and scammed me out of close to $100,000 using a series of unbelievable confidence tricks that literally brought me to my knees. In

In season two, The O.C. Savior, we meet con artist Lizzie Mulder, who impersonates a cast of made-up characters using voice-changing apps on her phone to scam her close circle of friends and clients out of more than a million dollars.

And season three, The Rich Girl, is all about con artist Danielle Miller, part-time social media influencer, full-time scammer. Danielle figures out a way to basically impersonate anyone in the flesh, walk into their bank, and withdraw all their money. No questions asked.

I sincerely believe the more you know about how con artists operate, the less likely you are to become a victim. So pay attention and stay safe out there. If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, click that share button and send it to your friends and family. Also, if you can, leave us a five-star review. Reviews really help other listeners find us.

Queen of the Con, The Unreal Housewife, is a production of AYR Media and iHeart Media, hosted by me, Jonathan Walton. Executive Producers, Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions, and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Jonathan Walton. Segment Producer, Gregory Harvey. Senior Associate Producer, Jill Pesheznik. Coordinator, Milena Krolyeski.

Edited by Justin Longerbeam. Audio engineer, Justin Longerbeam. Studio engineer, Maximo Abraham. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeart Media, Maya Howell.

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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm also Lacey Lamar. Just kidding. I'm Amber Reffin. What? Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. This season, we make new friends, deep dive into my steamy DMs, and we'll be right back.

answer your listener questions and more. The more is punch each other. Listen to the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen, okay? Or Lacey gets it. Do it.