Loose Ends [10]
01:06:15 Share

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why?

Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You may start the conversation now. What in the world? Hello, strangers. Finally, I'm the whole and everything. I'm doing great. They let me out yesterday. You know, it was the craziest thing. Boy, how the incident happened. Boy, it would be a separate podcast, but you would never believe.

Wayne was out of the hole.

and my daily calls with him were now back in full swing. Yeah, they let me out yesterday. And yesterday, you know, they were aware of the publicity and all. They said, yeah, it's going good and all that, you know. Yeah, they were telling me they had been following it all, and they explained it. And I sat down with DeWarn and all three of them, and I explained the whole project, what we do. He said, I'll tell you what, Wayne. He said, because I explained to him, I said, you know, I'm not out trying to talk to nobody. I said, we're trying to do stuff together. He said, I don't blame you. He said, well, the people you need to get in here and see, like T.I., like, he said...

It had been a month since I last talked to Wayne. And before I could ask him any more questions, it was strictly business. He first set up a conference call with Dwayne and I. Yeah, I've got Dwayne here in pain. And I want to reiterate the same thing with Dwayne on the line when we said to make sure that everybody's on the exact same page.

And like I explained to Payne,

The podcast was airing now.

and it seemed like it was making Wayne a little antsy. Next, he set up a conference call with his friend Jimmy. You're going to have to get with Jimmy. He's going to have to take you to meet all of these different people and all that. This takes money and gas. You understand what I'm saying right there. Wayne is going to do the same thing where you're going to meet suspects. You're going to meet people who are eyewitnesses to these things, but they have to take you in the hoods that you can't go. Not being funny, babe, but being a young white boy, there are places you can't go by yourself with this.

That's what I'm trying to say.

The first two days that Wayne was testifying, he was...

He was cool. They was asking him questions about being gay and all of this different stuff. And he was saying, look, man, I don't know nothing about that stuff. I didn't do this. I wasn't there. And he was cool, calm, and collected. The defense attorney told him to fight back on the stand, and that's what ended up really getting Wayne getting the guilty verdict because people was like, oh, he is a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde type of person.

And what made her come to me and do that was a news story Channel 5 ran. He said, Wayne Williams appears too cool and calm. They were responding to a darn news story. God.

She told me, Wayne, you need to be more forceful. You're looking too calm and cool. And Mary Thread quit if I didn't do that. In Atlanta, another body was discovered today, the 23rd. At police task force headquarters, there are 27 faces on the wall, 26 murdered, one missing. We do not know the person or persons that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the motive. From Tenderfoot TV and How Stuff Works in Atlanta, like 11 other recent victims in Atlanta...

Rogers apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta is unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster.

Dwayne's convinced that Dwayne's attorney, Mary Welcome, was some sort of plant. But he had no evidence to back that theory. Even Dwayne himself disagreed.

Yes, she was fine. She was fine. I'm going to call her back one more time.

Apparently, Wayne was pretty fond of Mary Welcome. I asked him about the blowup on the witness stand.

And so finally they said, wait a minute.

I need you to be more forceful and project yourself. And I said, how do I do this? I mean, how do you try to present yourself in such a way? Because I don't think most people realize that isn't a storybook. That isn't a guide to how you respond.

I don't care what people tell you about what type of preparations you go through. And I just responded, you know. And I was so upset that I could sense that that was a tragic mistake for me because people thought I exploded. No, I was well under control. I wasn't upset at the district attorney's office. I was upset at my lawyers for putting me in such a tragic situation. So that's what my frustration was over me.

So do you think that that played a big role in your conviction? No doubt. No doubt. We talked to a lot of the jury members afterwards, and believe it or not, you could actually see the look on their face. I could sense it. You know, it was like, they were like, oh my God, you know, and the DA, I literally played myself out of stupidity into the DA's hands, and it was the turning point in the trial we found out later on.

You know, in talking to Wayne and looking at the evidence of this case, the entire case was built on fiber evidence. There were no fingerprints. I mean, there were allegations that some of Wayne's victims were at his house or in his car.

Vincent Hill reiterated several episodes back the overall importance of the bridge.

Fiber evidence aside, if you take the bridge out of the equation, you don't have Wayne to begin with. Let's listen back to Wayne's version of the bridge incident from one of my first calls with him.

He tried to persuade the jury he really was out near a bridge that night looking for a Cheryl Johnson, who still remains a mystery to this trial. The state implied he fabricated the story, but Williams didn't budge from it.

claiming the woman simply gave him a wrong number and wrong address.

Why don't you come by the apartment where I'm staying with the friend? I think she said about 7.15 because I got to be at work at 8 o'clock, and that's when she gave me the address. I said, are you sure about this address? She said, yeah. I said, okay, well, I'll see you tomorrow morning. As a matter of fact, if you look at my statements, I even tell the police, I said the only reason I went out to check the address was because I felt it was a fake address that she gave. That's why I went out to check it in the first place.

The prosecution claimed that Wayne Williams had fabricated the entire story of Cheryl Johnson, saying she was fake. And now, years later, Wayne agrees. He was receiving hundreds of calls for music auditions, and every so often he'd get a prank call, this being one of them.

But regardless whether or not Cheryl Johnson was a prank call, Wayne still claims that she called him. Well, at least somebody did. Over the course of a few weeks, I kept asking him about it, trying to pinpoint an exact timeline for everything. And according to Wayne, it starts like this. She originally did not call me. This was the key point. She called my mother and left a note, you know, and my mother left a note. And this was on the 20th, if I believe now. Okay.

According to Wayne, Cheryl Johnson originally did not call him. She called the number on Wayne's flyer, which at the time was his house phone. He wasn't there, so his mother answered. This happened the day before the bridge incident. Anytime somebody called about an audition, I went there, our caller, to do it. She would just write a post-it note, you know, for that. That's all. I talked to her the next day. My mom was the one who wrote the caller slip. My mom wrote that.

So Wayne's mom took the call from Cheryl Johnson the day before the bridge incident and wrote down her information on a slip of paper to give to Wayne. But what exactly did Wayne's mom write on the piece of paper? So your mom wrote down her number, and then where'd you get the address from for her? On the note his mom left him was Cheryl Johnson's name, phone number, and her address. But Wayne did not make contact with her until the next day, around 4 p.m., on the same night of the bridge incident.

According to Wayne, he didn't call her. She called his house phone again, but this time he was there to answer it. This is where things start to get a little confusing, so I'll do my best to break it down. Wayne says the next day he didn't call Cheryl Johnson back, but she called his house phone again, even though Wayne had the information to call her back himself.

With so much emphasis on the note from his mom, it seemed odd for him to point out. So I asked him about it again just for clarity. No, no, no. She called me. I answered the phone. I don't know what number she called. I did not call her back. That's what I'm saying. I talked to her the afternoon, who this woman claimed she was on the afternoon of the 21st, about 4 o'clock. We talked for about maybe five minutes.

And when she mentioned the address, that's when she was talking about, I gotta be at work. I said, well, we need to do not an audition like that, but an interview. I said, well, Kim, we gotta do an interview before your audition. That's what she was talking about. She gotta go back to Memphis. And that's when I started questioning her on Memphis. I said, well, you ought to know so-and-so. She didn't know anybody I mentioned in Memphis, so my radar went off at that point. I knew quite a few people in the music business in Memphis, and she didn't know any of them. Strange.

He talked to her around 4 p.m. that day for about five minutes, and he claimed he was already a little suspicious of her. But he agreed to meet her the next morning at her apartment anyway. And he said that that phone call was the first and last time he ever talked to Cheryl Johnson. So your mom got the call from Cheryl Johnson, and then she wrote down the number and the address? Yes.

Okay, so did you have that note with you when you went driving out that night? Okay, so you, did you take the note with you? Okay.

After confirming his appointment with Cheryl Johnson the next morning, Wayne left his house later that night to go find her address because he was still convinced she was a fake caller. When he left his house, he brought with him the slip of paper his mother wrote down her phone number and address on. So the night of the bridge incident, what time did you leave your house that night? I left about...

His first stop that night was not to go find Cheryl Johnson's address. He left around 6.30 p.m. to go to a recording studio called Hotlanta Records to drop off a bill for photo shoot services. We went straight to College Park to meet Melvin Ware, Jackie Dino, and the people at Hotlanta Records, College Park down there by the airport, to deliver the bill for the photo services I had done. And we stayed there until about, maybe about an hour later.

So after you left the Hotlanta Records, where'd you go after that? It's now around 8 p.m., and he's back at his house. You got home at 8, and then when'd you leave the house again?

Wayne says that he didn't leave the house again until 1 a.m. that night. In the FBI case files, Wayne recounts his version of what happened that night from that point forward. This is how it reads verbatim from the FBI documents. When asked to recount his activities on the night of May 21st, 1981, Williams stated that he had stopped at the Sansucci Lounge on West Peachtree to see Wilbur Jordan. Williams was attempting to pick up a tape recorder, which he had loaned him.

Williams recalled that he had talked to a female, who he stated was in her 40s, and who was taking admission. The individual informed Williams that Jordan had been in, but was not around at the time. Williams left a message with her regarding the tape recorder, and then drove to Smyrna, Georgia, in an attempt to find Cheryl Johnson's address.

I asked Wayne about this. But according to FBI documents, Wayne made a stop first at a club called Sansuchi Lounge. I need to send you where my...

Wayne said he left his house with the intention of going to the club, but before he made it there, he decided to go check on Cheryl Johnson's address first. Contrary to the FBI reports, Wayne says he did not go to the club the night of the bridge incident, but instead, he went the following night, the night of May 22nd.

This whole thing was confusing, so a few days later I asked him about it again. Yep.

Wayne's version of the story had changed. Now he's saying he did go to the club that night, the same night he was pulled over on the bridge. So which one was it?

Wayne certainly told me two completely different stories about the Sansucci Club. So a few days later, I asked him about it again.

I'm confused about when you went to the club. One time you told me that you went to the club before the bridge, and then one time you told me that you went the next day. Okay, let me correct that. Okay, so we'll understand. Okay, what all the confusion over the club was is that...

I went to the club first, before the bridge incident. I went to the club looking for the manager who was a friend of mine. As a matter of fact, he was a co-producer with my music company. I did not go to see him, but yet the FBI in the statement tried to turn it around and claim that I went to the club and saw Gino Jordan. I never said that. I never saw Gino that night. What I did was the next night after the bridge incident, which would have been the night of the 22nd,

Another thing Wayne had pointed out to me in our very first conversation about the bridge was something about his handwriting and the phone number for Cheryl Johnson.

You may remember this. And the only confusion in the statements was over the thing on the telephone number in Cheryl Johnson. The number was 9347766. You'll see when you get my writing, I'm going to send you some samples of it. It was 4347766. My 4s and my 9s look alike because I closed the loop at the top of them. So the 4s and 9s were mixed up because his handwriting looked the same on the note. No, no, no.

No, no, no. No, you don't hear me, Payne. The number I wrote was 434-7766, okay? They, in looking at my notes in the car at my right, thought it was a nine. Are you understanding what I'm saying?

But Wayne had told me earlier that his mother wrote the note, the same note he brought with him in the car. So your mom got the call from Cheryl Johnson, and then she wrote down the number and the address?

Okay, so did you have that note with you when you went driving out that night? Okay, so did you take the note with you? So how was that possible? Wayne's theory about his handwriting would only make sense if he had written the note himself. But he didn't. He said his mom did. Unless there was a second note.

And to be honest with you, I can't remember if I actually had the note from Cheryl Johnson with me that night or a notation on my appointment book. I'm pretty sure it was a notation on my appointment book that I showed the FBI agent. On the note that the FBI agents got, that was my mom's handwriting.

Before Wayne was stopped on the bridge, he claimed he had pulled over into a liquor store parking lot and used a payphone in an attempt to call Cheryl Johnson. So you called the number and what happened when you called the number?

Well, when I called the number that I called, the first time I got a, you know, this number's not in service, so I dialed another number, and then I think it was nine, six numbers, I can't remember. I tried three or four numbers, and finally I had to call one number, and it looked like I woke somebody up, and I said, well, best be to see her

This story does match the FBI reports, but I was still confused about the handwriting story and the mix-up on the phone numbers. So I asked him about it again. And so the FBI tried to call the number, right, and then said it didn't work or what? No.

Yeah, so they called the wrong number. Right. They tried it. Yeah, I never called a 934. That's them. I don't know what, you know. The number I called was 434-7766. And I got like a doo-doo-doo number not in service or something. I can't remember now. But I tried because it wasn't about a minute. And I tried a couple more combinations and all. And finally I got one where somebody asked us. The LMS speech is different.

I think the Cheryl Johnson was just some story he made up really quick, 2 in the morning. Wayne could have said a hundred different things besides Cheryl Johnson, which police never found a Cheryl Johnson with that phone number, which didn't exist.

Whatever Wayne was doing that night, Wayne possibly could be hiding something. Or maybe Wayne did kill Nathaniel Cater, and maybe that's why he and Jimmy are the only two murders he was convicted of. But simply changing his story...

It doesn't prove anything as far as, you know, why not years later? Wayne said, yeah, I lied. Here's what I was really doing. But at the same time, you could argue and say, why not years later? Because let's be honest, I don't think Wayne will ever get out of prison. Why not years later say, yeah, I'm going to confess to everything, and here's how I did it. Wayne's entire existence is built on this. If he confesses, then, you know, that's a wrap. Wayne Williams will just diminish. If Wayne confessed, he's...

Wayne was probably up to no good that night, but I don't think it involved Nathaniel Cater. Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind.

Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down. From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal.

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. However, one murder of a crime boss sparked a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the mob.

It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Discover how law enforcement and prosecutors took on the mafia and together brought them down. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeartRadio, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. The first two episodes drop on August 22nd.

Plus, did you know that you can listen to the episodes as they come out completely ad-free? Don't miss out. Subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel today. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

I don't know that there was that defining moment during that trial. There was one for me as an observer that came at the very end, and I still think it is some of the strongest evidence that was presented in the trial. And I would tell you that 99.9% of your audience has never heard of it. The blood. Two of the last four victims were stabbed at the end of the string of murders. John Porter and William Barrett. There were two blood stains found in the station wagon. They typed them.

Neither one of them were Wayne's blood, but they both matched the two victims that had been stabbed, Porter and Barrett. The link was suggested by showing the jury this ripped up car seat. It came from the 1970s station wagon driven by Wayne Williams. An expert from the Georgia Crime Lab told the jury that she had found four areas of dried blood on the seat. Two types were analyzed, type A and type B.

Prosecutors then had witnesses testify about blood samples taken from the bodies of John Porter and William Barrett, two victims found with stab wounds. Porter had type B, Barrett type A, the same as the samples found in the suspect's car. The jury also heard the dried blood in the car could not be from William since he was type O. The state obviously suggesting that the bodies of Barrett and Porter were at one time on that seat.

Of course, the defense wanted the jury to realize the connection is a shaky one, since William's parents and the owners of the car, an uncle, an aunt, and thousands of other people may have had those blood types and driven in the car. But if you could get to the blood, I think, if I recall, it was within six weeks, you can break it down even further. You get into an enzyme factor. They were able to do that. Both of those two victims had been stabbed within the last six weeks. Both of the two bloodstains in the backseat of Wayne Williams' car

were fresh enough to be able to break them down into the enzyme factor. Both matched Barrett and Porter. Prosecutors continued to close in with a connection. The jury, listening carefully and taking notes, heard that both Porter and Barrett had an enzyme type 1, a further breakdown of their blood samples. The panel then heard that both stains in the car were enzyme type 1. One of them, according to the testimony in the trial,

That particular blood type and enzyme factor was found in only 7%. I can't remember if it was 7% of males or 7% of African-American males, but it was 7%. The other one was found in only 24%. Talking percentages, the witnesses said only 7 out of every 100 people would have Porter's type B enzyme type 1, and that 24 out of every 100 people would have Barrett's type A enzyme type 1.

Two victims stabbed, two bloodstains in his car, and they both match. It was physical evidence. That's not really circumstantial evidence. That's physical evidence. It's not a fingerprint. It's not a murder on a videotape. But it was very strong evidence, I thought, at the end of that trial. Throughout my investigation, the case of Clifford Jones kept popping up.

Jones's case stands out in particular because many people feel there's another viable suspect for the murder, aside from Wayne Williams. I first found Dwayne Hendricks from a YouTube video of Clifford Jones's brother, Emanuel. And your brother's name was? Clifford Jones. It was one early morning, August 20th, 1980. People had kidnapped my brother, a man named Jamie Brooks.

Horace Hopgood, Freddy Cosby. These guys held my brother captive in a laundromat right on the corner of Hollywood Road. Hours later, he was found near a dumpster behind the mall, strangled, wrapped in plastic. His brother was inside being beaten and raped all day before they actually killed him and disposed of his body.

An alleged eyewitness described the strangling of Jones and identified the strangler, not Wayne Williams, but a man named Jamie Brooks. He knew that Wayne Williams didn't kill his brother. He knew that. And despite all that evidence, the task force blamed Clifford Jones' murder not on Jamie Brooks, but on Wayne Williams.

The investigators reviewing the case file on Clifford Jones released to Channel 2 News under court order, a file containing statements from five eyewitnesses who point to a suspect other than Wayne Williams as the killer of Jones. Jones's case also stood out to fiber analyst Larry Peterson. To Peterson, Jones's case was one of the only puzzles he couldn't put together.

Clifford Jones' case became, I think, important in my mind. One, because it was the first one I went to. And it was the one that seemed to be the cement, the need, the form of task force. At this crime scene, one of the things I did was examine the body, look around the body. You know, are there tire prints? Are there shoe prints? Is there anything? What, from a crime scene standpoint? And literally, there was nothing but the body itself.

One of the things I had noticed and collected was over 20 beige carpet fibers, loose in his hair, on his skin, on his clothes, and I collected them at the crime scene. That was one of the fiber types that I'm convinced is important because they were so loose and so many, they had to be tied to how his body got there.

Whatever sample came in, that was one of the ones I would always go, it was the green carpet, there was some other things, but in his case, I always looked for those beige carpet fibers on any sample submitted for a comparison. And actually, through the trial, they never matched anything. So that was always kind of a mystery fiber as to, well, then where did they come from? That had bugged me through post-trial. It always had bugged me. The thing that I wanted to know most was I wanted to know everything about what the evidence meant.

So, a year after trial, to satisfy his own professional and scientific curiosity, Larry investigated further. He couldn't reconcile these missing pieces. So they had put these records into evidence that they had these three different Ford Fairmonts, 1980 Ford Fairmonts, the family was getting, using as rentals. This was news to me. It turns out between '79 and '81, the Williams family was in possession of at least six cars at one time or another, three being rental cars.

I was at Fulton County about a year after the trial, and I went by the appeal attorney's office and talked to Joe Drolet. And I said, "Is there any way, if the defense put those rental agreements into evidence, is it possible I could get copies?" So he supplied me with copies of the rental agreements, which include VIN numbers and descriptions of automobiles. So I took that and I ran it through our Crime Information Center.

through the vehicle registration and came up with the fact that those had been sold as used cars and I had GBI agents go to those locations, collect trunk liner and floorboard fibers from those three rental cars. In the meantime, I looked at the time sequences of when the rental agreements were and what victims disappeared in those time sequences. Clifford Jones fell into the same time sequence

So when that fiber sample came in from the trunk liner and from the floorboard, the first thing I found was that there were beige carpet fibers in the floorboard of the 1980 rental car that matched the Clifford Jones fibers. Wow. You know, I had a stronger case after the trial than I even did during the trial.

What he found during his investigation was the beige carpet fibers, the ones he could never match before trial, the ones that linked Clifford Jones to a car in Wayne Williams' possession. One of those things where everything built on everything else that came after it. Nothing ever eliminated him.

Nothing ever eliminated Wayne. Everything we would come to kept him in the ballpark. Louis Slayton said at the beginning of the trial, it's a puzzle and we're going to put all the pieces together. And as you watch that puzzle being filled in, they kind of answered every question for the jury. So it's a case to me that its strength was in the totality of all of it.

Does he have any defense lawyers? He had a good one for a while, Jack. Jack Martin. Jack's a good attorney. I think if Jack saw something here or didn't see something here, that's why he's not involved anymore. I think everybody's lost interest in Wayne. They realize that he's the right guy, you know. So I don't see much happening on the Wayne Williams front.

The bridge made it. The fibers made it. The blood made it. The eyewitnesses made it. It was everything. And they told you what Wayne's life was and how it fit into all this, of his taking these cars and driving for hundreds and hundreds of miles, driving in the late night, early morning hours, picking up young boys, going to be a music producer, never really producing anything. They gave the jury a picture of who this guy was.

The story of Wayne Williams is one story because he was charged and convicted with the murder of adults. That's one story. But the other story, the children, the girls, the boys who were murdered, who were dumped. How do you introduce evidence from another crime that the defendant's not charged with?

Georgia law allows you to bring in what they call a similar transaction. It was a two-part test. You had to prove to a judge that there was some evidence linking the defendant to the crime, and there was some evidence that the crime would show a pattern, a scheme, and a bent of mind of that defendant. Oh my God, this is what Louis Slayton's going to do with Wayne Williams, and we're going to have the child murder trial.

it's not going to be Jimmy Ray Payne and Nathaniel Cater. I would say that whatever law Louis Slayton used at that time period, it was probably the most expedient thing to do. If there were enough similarities, then just dump it all on one. And that's not criticizing Mr. Slayton. It's just saying it appeared at that time to be the best thing to do.

It gave the public, and again it answered a question on the jury's mind, what about the kids? And they gave, I believe, Atlanta the child murder trial. As I said before, the guy was anonymous, no one's seen him, no eyewitnesses.

It is amazing we convicted him without any eyewitnesses. Not a single person came forward. And the witnesses that we had were very shaky at best. They thought they saw this, they thought they saw that. I was not involved in the trial. But again, it was all hairs and fibers. And today it would be a very interesting case.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy.

And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. However, one murder of a crime boss sparked a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the mob.

It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Discover how law enforcement and prosecutors took on the mafia and together brought them down. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeartRadio, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. The first two episodes drop on August 22nd.

Plus, did you know that you can listen to the episodes as they come out completely ad-free? Don't miss out. Subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel today. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Wayne Williams told reporters at a press conference in June that he didn't know any of the victims on the task force list. No, he knew none of them. No. Any of the victims at all? Adults or otherwise? No, I didn't. No associates, no family? No. No.

The state has witnesses that will place the victims with Williams. The next door neighbor of the Williams did say he saw Wayne the day the suspect was supposed to be with victim Larry Rogers. Two relatives of the victim said Wayne Williams was seen with Barrett several months before his death. More damaging testimony today from other witnesses who claim to have seen Cater alive on May 21st. One woman placed the suspect with Terry Pugh, but in April of last year, five months after Pugh's body was found.

Margaret Carter, a woman who lives in northwest Atlanta, told the jury that she saw Williams with victim Nathaniel Cater in this Verbena Street park a week before Cater's body was found in the Chattahoochee River. And the witness also said alongside the two men was a German shepherd.

But the person who stood out as the most credible witness was this woman, Nellie Trammell, who placed Wayne Williams in a car with Larry Rogers, saying the slightly retarded man was slumped over in the passenger seat. A week later, Rogers' body is found near Simpson Road. A lot of the witnesses, indeed, were unreliable. People got to remember when this case came to trial, that was a half-million-dollar cash reward out for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone

Ken Lawson worked in the task force headquarters answering phones and writing reports. But Lawson was amazed to see Nellie Trammell as a witness, telling the jury the elderly woman was almost a regular at task force headquarters who would sit there for hours knitting.

Every time a body was found, she'd call about it. It got to the point, he said, that recruits would try and pass Nellie's calls off to each other.

An elderly man who may have been discredited by the defense because of poor eyesight testified he saw Williams with Payne last April. He was laughable.

Another witness came into the courtroom and admitted just before testifying he had just smoked weed. Another witness, nicknamed Cool Breeze, putting Williams with Larry Rogers, was an admitted drug user and in fact told the jury he had smoked marijuana before testifying. His credibility was strained. And he wasn't able to pick me out on the witness stand, so he pulls out a piece of paper out of his pocket and says, yeah, but I've seen this guy in the newspaper. You know, it was ridiculous. It was ridiculous.

On the other hand, you did have some witnesses, babe, who just played along in their association. One of those witnesses, Ken Hines, but...

thought that he saw Joseph Bell at a recording studio that we had on January the 3rd. Kent Hinesman, a 24-year-old songwriter, says he spent most of January 3rd with Williams in this Buckhead recording studio. And there with Williams was a teenager by the name of Joseph Jojo Bell. I remember Jojo because he came in and he sang a few tunes for

A middle-aged white woman, Ruth Warren, told the jury she also saw Williams with Jeter the day the 13-year-old boy disappeared.

But the witness could not remember under cross-examination when she told police about the sighting. Recently, a man named Tony came to the office and told me a story he's only ever told his family.

We came back out of the zoo, the bikes were gone.

We were basically right there just puzzling, you know what I'm saying, more like how we're going to get back home. I was living then in a project that was called Greater Homes. So I was walking back across the park going back to Greater Homes and out of the blue this guy came off the top of the hill. He was like, hey, what's going on? How y'all doing? You okay? I was like, yeah, we fine. Said somebody stole my bicycle, you know what I'm saying, we was over at the zoo. And then we got to walk back home. So he was like, well, you need a ride?

I was like, nah, we good. We can walk, you know what I'm saying? He was like, well, my daddy owned this church, is the pastor of this church over here. It was like in a housing area, you know what I'm saying? So I had a member of that church because I had been over there. So I was like, yeah, I've been to that church before, you know what I'm saying? So he was like, yeah, my daddy's the pastor. He said, he'll take y'all home. Y'all ain't got to walk all the way back to greater home, you know what I'm saying? I was like, well, cool then. So we was following him back to the church. Think his daddy going to give us a ride.

That's when things started to feel a little weird. Why are you taking us this way?

The man got antsy and aggressive, and Tony knew something wasn't right. He had to get out of there. So I pissed on the side of the car.

So my cousin Bobo was, like, standing by the car beside me. And he was telling my cousin, well, you just going to get in, you know what I'm saying? So he was like, nah, we ain't going to get in. Just go get your daddy, you know what I'm saying? So he started looking around. When he stepped back to the car gate, he had opened the car door up. That's when he got aggressive. His whole demeanor changed. His whole thing was get us in this car. It turned from my dad's finna take y'all home to y'all get y'all motherfucking dad in this goddamn car.

He had grabbed us in the back of a church where nobody else was around. He tried to throw us in the car. For him to try and get two at a time was a task. So when we tried to break loose and we started hitting on him, and he couldn't let one get away and keep one. So he had to reach at two people in two different directions. That's how we broke away. He lost grip on one, lost grip on the other. We split it up.

And so I ran one way, and my cousin ran back the way we came. And I look back, and I'm running. I don't see nobody behind me. So I'm thinking he probably got my cousin. So I'm running up the street crying, get way up there. You know what I'm saying? Then all of a sudden, my cousin come out. He pop up. I said, how did you get away? He said, I just kept running. He didn't come behind me. So I went back to the house. I was telling my mom. I was like, God just tried to throw us in the car, tried to kidnap us. So I took him where the car was parked. I took him where he took us to.

and the car was gone, you know what I'm saying? So the only description I had then was that he kind of favored my brother. Five, six, five, seven, you know what I'm saying? With glasses. Tony told his mother that the dangerous man that tried to abduct him looked kind of like his own brother, a black man with bushy hair and glasses. At first, the man was nameless, but then Tony saw the news. In a year or so went by, my mom and I were looking at it on the news, and I was like, that's the same guy who tried to grab us, Mom.

The guy who did it, I remember his face clearly. Everything came together. When I saw his face, I knew that was him, White Williams. And so she was like, you sure? I said, that's him. I'll never forget that guy. I said, you remember I told you he looked just like Redding? I said, now don't he look like Redding? She was like, yeah, he do favor Redding a little bit. Like, that's him. I'll never forget his face. We fought with him. And it ain't no mistaken or no identity. You know, I can picture that whole day clearly.

In hindsight, Tony realized the man's gestures were actually a manipulative and calculated charm, a way to lure prey without suspicion. He could have killed me.

People believe different type of ways, you know what I'm saying? But I know for a fact what he tried to do to me. And I know how corny and conniving he is. It ain't never going to trick somebody in the car with him. To Tony, it all made sense. All the stories about Wayne Williams. He says he saw it firsthand. He wasn't coming at you like a monster. He was coming at you like a friend, you know, to get your trust, to get you in that car. You know what I'm saying? That's why he did what he did for so long, because he ain't make no scene doing what he was doing.

It was so normal how he'll get you in that car when nobody recognized him. I seen how he tried to do us. You probably wouldn't even be talking to me today. Real talk. You know what I'm saying? I'm telling the real. I ain't benefiting nothing from this. You know what I'm saying? My family know about this. I don't talk about this to nobody. They ain't come at you like no beast to get your attention.

He didn't pull up and hit you in the head with a baseball bat and throw you in the trunk. That ain't how he worked. They was already from a low-income family, probably ain't had too much food in the house. You know what I'm saying? Anything can persuade him. A can of ice cream. Man ain't got no remorse. The man don't care. You know what I'm saying? He ain't sitting back in prison really crying he's innocent. He ain't really fighting that hard to let folks know he need to be out of prison. He just doing his time. Because they know he killed them out of truth. They just can't prove it.

I thought it was only fair to share this story with Wayne to see what he said about it. Tony made a lot of bold claims, but very convincingly, I asked Wayne for his take. He came into my office a few days ago, and he told me that he thinks that you tried to abduct him and his cousin at the back of a church.

Back of a what? Back of a church. He said that the man said his dad was a pastor at the church.

That's ridiculous. You know, that's one thing throughout this trial. You've got people who come forth with these stories after the fact. And you've got to remember, after my picture was flashed all over the news on June the 4th, you had all types of people coming forth. And I know this guy. Now, my point is, where were these people before? Where were these people when these incidents happened, you know, at the time? They couldn't identify anybody. Now,

Is that story true?

You know, that's ridiculous right there. You know, I don't even know these people. And here we are years later. You know, I hear stories like that. You know, again, we've heard it all through the years. But my point is, if it were true, these people would have come out a long time ago.

But Tony's story wasn't the only one I was told. There was one more.

Don't be his lawyer, you know what I'm saying? Don't be his savior. Don't be his God, you know what I'm saying? Because I know what I've seen with my own eyes. At this time, I was staying on one side of town, the Bankhead side of town, and we had moved from Grant Park and my aunt's estate there. So one Sunday, I went over there to play with my cousin. I'm at Grant Park. We was at Grant Park playing. Then when I left...

Instead of me waiting on the bus at Atlanta Avenue, I went up by Atlanta Food and County Stadium, and I was sitting in the bus stop waiting on the bus, and then a big blue Chevrolet pulled up, stopped in the middle of the street, and he let the one of them out. He said, hey, can you tell him how to get to Martin Luther King? He said, well, where you stay at? I said, well, I stay on Bankhead, but you know what I'm saying, I'm finna get ready to go home. He said, I'll give you a ride. I said, no, I don't need no ride. I sat back down in the booth, you know what I'm saying, so I heard some car tires like...

So I get back up and look, he whooped the car around in the middle of the street. You know what I'm saying? But this on a Sunday in front of Fulton County Stadium, wasn't no game. So buses run slow. Ain't hardly nobody, you know, moving. So I'm like, ain't no more cars coming by. So he whooped back up by the bus stop and...

Right up on the sidewalk, you know what I'm saying? So I jump up, and I was looking at the sketch. I was looking at the sketch in the back of my mind, like, the same dude be on TV, like, you know what I mean? So I stood up and looked, and at first I did jump back, like, is this for real? I'm looking at him, and he step out with one leg and the little afro stick up, and now he look me dead in the face with the glasses on. I'm like, bro, really got to be kidding, because they already saying they looking for you, you know what I'm saying? And you still, like, playing.

And I had told him I didn't need no ride. And I had told him what Marlowe the King was. And if you from Atlanta, he didn't really have to turn around right there. He could have went down to the red light, made a right, and went to Marlowe the King. When he pulled the car around, he pulled up on the sidewalk like he was trying to kidnap me. I can't be the judge of what Wayne did. But only thing I can say is somebody say, he didn't kill all them children. That's why I be standing here saying today, wait, pump your brakes. Everybody in the project knew they were Polk, so...

We didn't fight each other like they do now. Gangs, young gangs. No, we didn't fight each other. Like, in front of the project, you po' like me. You got no reason to fight. But if we hear something about Wayne, we gonna, your mama gonna call my mama. My next door neighbor said, Wayne Williams just trying to get her son. That was the conversation back then. Yeah, they were saying Wayne Williams. They wasn't saying no man in the blue card. Wayne Williams. They were calling him by his name. So it is real to me.

You ain't offer me no money. You ain't offer me nothing. I'm just telling you what happened for real. You know what I'm saying? We was already as kids preparing for if he came or when he came. You know what I mean? You know, guys started buying little pocket knives and stuff, you know, like get a piece of glass and wrap it up in a napkin and put it in your pocket. Like, you know, if you ever got in trouble or somebody pulled up on you and tried to get you, that was your weapon. I mean, listen, man, listen. I'm not trying to debate

with nobody, never, about what I seen or what happened to me. So, you know what I'm saying, I don't need nobody to run up on me 20 years later saying, well, you see Wayne, you know, but I know what I seen. I don't have to keep on trying to rehash it like I'm trying to convince nobody. You know what I'm saying? I know Wayne. I done seen Wayne since then. You know, shook Wayne's hand just to get in front of him and be like, bro, you done seen me before.

In 89, I was a young, you know, little young rich dude. Had done caught my first dope, okay. Went down the road and, man, they put some dope on me, you know what I'm saying? They said, dude up in the library will help you out. When I went up there and seen who it was, you know, it kind of, I was like, nah, can't let him work on my case. You know what I'm saying? Like, that was just me.

Wayne was working in what they called a law library. Now, Wayne in there, he done kind of tricked the folks saying, like, I'm small, let me work in the law library. So when you go in the law library, you got a dope case. Wayne making friends with the dope boys.

because he need real protection. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I get in good with some of y'all, I can get the rest of these folks out my back because everybody got kin people in him. He is like the poor people's lawyer. But he working in there with the books and every time you see him, he reading the book. But you had guys in there who didn't have lawyer money. So I was like, I'm smart. You know what I'm saying? I was finna go to college. So I started working on my own case. I'm sitting there. Wayne, just like y'all sitting there. Another inmate, Wayne. You know what I'm saying? Like,

He ain't killed nobody in my family or got people saying he didn't do it. You know what I'm saying? So when he sees you and he says, what you in here for, little bro? You know what I'm saying? Now, you might not know he Wayne Williams, though. You'd be like, man, they planted some dope on me. You know what I'm saying? That's how you broke when you, they planted some dope on me. That wasn't even my dope. That was right up his alley. Oh, now I can work on his case and build my friendship up and I can get people to stop saying I'm a killer.

So what Wayne would do is look over your case for you, you know what I mean, and be like, yeah, we're going to fire this haybuck creepy right here and get your case overturned. You're going to go home. So Wayne was in there helping people. When you were in there, Wayne is your friend because guess who was your enemy? The system. Everybody in there was like, when I see him, I'm going to kill him.

Let's see if you got 31 children missing. I mean, you got 34 kinfolks in there, cousins and nephews and brothers. When I see them, I'm just going to choke them, you know what I'm saying? But they couldn't get to them like that. Like when you go to the law library, you sign a piece of paper, and they handcuff you and take you up there, and they open the door and throw you in there. You're like, gee, why, he might kill me up in the library. You know, he might be done...

made a shank and put it in the law library book. So if he got a raise in the book, he could juke you with your own say. If he's a killer, you know, what man want to face a serial killer, knock the knock? One day, dude come in there, and I want to say he was from Capitol Hill. I remember we having a little small conversation. He was like, I'm going to get him. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to get him. I guess the little kid, Toby Jeter or somebody from Capitol Hill had got missing. So I kind of, he turned the cone in the library and

You didn't hear nothing but, "Bah, y'all!" You know what I'm saying? I looked around and I know Wayne was picking the glasses up off the ground. Just all that tear coming out of his eyes. And I just said, I said, he just, if there was something on his mind he wanted to get out of, like, he wanted to file for Wayne. We didn't ask for this life. With 40 food stamps in the way, I found the wick and the government cheese and the pile of milk, like,

It was the day we had a part of it, you know what I'm saying? The lights was on, but no furniture in there, no food in there. Like, where we gonna get it from? One thought, one part of history I don't know. Somebody got to tell me who started first hating. It had to be one or two people. It couldn't have been Jesus, was it? But somebody had to start hating. Hatred and racism, they never taught us that in school.

until a bunch of us get together and start knocking at the door and have our own nigger man march with blacks and whites. Not no riots and protests. I don't want you to go to jail for me. Like, if we don't come together as one, and like I said, we can have these conversations every week if we feel like it'll make a difference. But this Dwayne Williams show, you know what I'm saying? But we need another show, you know what I mean? And we want to break these race relations.

If there's one thing I've learned throughout my work on Atlanta Monster, it's that no matter how you slice it, this story is bigger than an investigation, bigger than a trial, and bigger than Wayne Williams. This case evokes deep emotions, even in people that weren't directly affected by the killings. And from what I've seen, it's inexorably tied to a feeling of social struggle.

No matter who committed these crimes, the people of Atlanta, particularly the black community, didn't feel safe or sufficiently supported. Through sensationalized media and heightened pressure, the children that were murdered almost seemed to become a secondary narrative to the story of Wayne Williams. But it's most important to remember how this all started with Edward Hope Smith on July 21st, 1979. I think podcasts such as what you're doing, Payne,

Who is the Atlanta Monster? We don't know.

We really don't know. And I think that it's clear at this point

Right.

Wayne, did you murder anybody?

Yeah.

It's this murder mystery that never ends. As you know, there are just so many questions.

We're fascinated by crime stories. This is never going to go away unless someone is arrested and found guilty of killing one or two of these children, and then somebody else is arrested and found guilty of killing a child. No, it's never going to go away. And even then it won't go away because there will still be people who say, I don't believe he did it. This is a story that will last longer than the two of us.

There is this growing sense that if we don't figure this out now, maybe we never will. You know, is this going to go into some Jack the Ripper-style vault of perpetually unsolved mysteries? I don't think it's opening up an old wound because I think the wound is healed because many people say Wayne Williams is in jail and that's it. But I think what it's doing is informing a new generation

Because there are a lot of people who've never heard of this case because they weren't born when it happened. And so now it serves two purposes, the historical perspective

Two, it also opens up new minds to investigate the case. And then three, it reminds young people you can't run footloose and fancy free all over the city and think someone's not going to grab you. Although we'll never know why those particular children were taken. They were poor. They were black. They were in a poor part of town, alone. And right now they're still alone.

They are alone in that no one seems to bother about saying, I really want to know who killed Luby Jeter. I really want to know what happened. Who's been holding something inside for all these years? For many of these children, the way that they were characterized suggested to people, there's no reason for you to cry for yourself because they don't have to mean anything for you.

And you don't have to cry for them and what they lost either because that wasn't going to amount to anything much. And that, to me, is not only tragic and upsetting, it is simply untrue. It's not true for anybody. It felt heavy. That's how it felt. It felt sad. And it felt like...

Like there was a very terrible person, indeed a monster, who was just devouring black men. This is former Atlanta mayor Kasim Reed. His term in office just ended this year. I was mayor for 2,920 days. He remembers the child murders firsthand as a young boy growing up in Atlanta. There needs to be an equality to the importance of life. To the extent that you have real equality of the importance of life.

You would have had more attention faster if it were a white child. Any child that's harmed, we ought to have the same level of intensity and passion and focus from day one. There should not be a lag time for alarm. It needs to be that a kid got killed, and we're going to find who killed the kid, and we're going to bring that person to justice. And it needs to be a unified feeling that that is the case. It should not be community by community.

And to the extent that we do that, we are a better city. We have to maintain that important ethic that our children are hands off to anybody and that anybody who attempts to harm our children will suffer extraordinary dynamic and extreme consequences with unified support. That's what I hope that the lesson will be.

Thanks for listening to Atlanta Monster. If you've enjoyed it, I encourage you to check out our first podcast, Up and Vanished, a true crime investigation into the disappearance of Georgia high school teacher and beauty queen, Tara Grinstead. Up and Vanished is available now on Apple Podcasts. Atlanta Monster is a joint production between HowStuffWorks and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Audio archives, courtesy of WSB News, Film, and Videotape Collection. Brown Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries. For the latest updates, please visit atlantamonster.com or follow us on social media. If you have any questions for me or the team, please call us at 1-833-285-6667. That's 1-833-285-6667.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why?

Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.