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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In Atlanta, another body was discovered today, the 23rd. At police task force headquarters, there are 27 faces on the wall, 26 murdered, one missing. We do not know the person or persons that are responsible, therefore we do not have the motive. From Tenderfoot TV and How Stuff Works in Atlanta. Like 11 other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta is unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps on killing.

This is Atlanta Monster. Such a great crowd. They're ready. It's 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are? We have kind of a young audience here. How many of you remember hearing that as a kid growing up? And did you know the story behind it? I know I, for one, kind of felt like it was strange, and I didn't really understand, but I knew it was bad. But I didn't know what the true story was behind it. And as we get in today, I'd love to hear kind of how you came together together

from your two sides of How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually starts with you guys because was it email me first or how did that work? Yeah, it was really weird. Believe it or not, we're in the same building in Atlanta and we didn't know it. And through some circumstances, I found out and I said, I reached out to Payne and said, let's come on down and have coffee. So Payne and Donald came down

And we just started talking and I said, you know, Up and Vanish is really great. And I think the next project that we should do together is on this Atlanta child murders case that I was nine, 10 years old at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah, we talked about that two weeks ago. And and we kind of looked at each other and said, well, then we have to do it.

Yeah, I mean, even take it one step back, one step further. The reason we were even in the same building is because we're looking for office space. And then Payne was like, I think HowStuffWorks is in the same building. So we're like, okay, well, let's see what's the deal. They're real podcasters. Yeah, yeah. The truth comes out on the tune-in stage. So basically you were hunting down Jason. We were hunting him down, yeah. Because you wanted to be in the same building. I want to be Jason. Yeah. Right. So...

But, yeah, so, you know, when we sat down with Jason and he presented the idea of Atlanta child murders to us, you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago. And it was something that Payne hadn't heard about before. He wasn't even born when it was happening, when the murders were taking place. I was about four years old, all the way in California. That's 2,000 miles away from where those tragedies were, you know, were happening. But

But I still remember hearing about it and remember those commercials, not really understanding what exactly those commercials were about, but just growing up being black and just having this affect the black community with the black victims. And eventually they caught a black serial killer. It was something that I just heard about all the time. So we're looking for something to do, a new podcast before the second season of The Vanished comes out.

And I said, you know, Payne, have you heard this before? And I sent it to him and he was intrigued and, you know, just went from there. And Jason, what was it about working with Payne and Donald that drew you in, aside from them stalking you outside your building? I didn't have a choice at that point. You know, I think, you know, HowStuffWorks has been doing podcasts for about 10 years, you know, and...

What I appreciate about podcasts, and I hope this stays true, is that there's not kind of a cookie cutter template to how things should be done. And what I really appreciated about Up and Vanished is there was kind of no rules. And so Payne came from filmmaking. He had definite ideas around kind of what it meant to tell a story. And I loved...

you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using music for emotion, you know, frankly, kind of being fearless about it, where I feel we don't do that enough in the industry, where let's tell a big story. Let's talk to everyone that we can.

and see where it goes. And you might be surprised where that story might end up. And I think Up and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent and you embed yourself in a community and you talk to people and they just know that you're someone they can talk to, things can happen. And I think that was just really interesting to me. And it just speaks to telling big stories. And I think that this industry is just ripe for

you know, early on it was Serial, it was S-Town, et cetera, et cetera. I think there should be 20 or 30 or 40 of these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories with, you

you know, kind of so many twists and turns, but also just the layers of that story are just super interesting to me. And so I really admired all those qualities and I've kind of felt like the combination of our efforts would, would kind of be a powerhouse story if we really put our heads together. And I think, I think we've done that.

Now, this story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies. There haven't been kind of the same. There's been some books and writing, but there just hasn't been the same kind of continuous examination that there have been for things like the Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about that in terms of coming into it and the approach that you took, but also knowing that there was so much hesitation from other people jumping into it? Yeah, you can take it.

Really, that was one of the main motivations behind us wanting to do it was that Payne never heard of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. It was after it happened, but-

you know, plenty of people didn't grow up during the era of, you know, Zodiac or, you know, these other serial killers that have been, you know, ingrained in our mind through TV series and books and all these different adaptations of movies. But this was something where it was kind of forgotten and doing some digging within the podcast. It's there's, there's a reason why I think initially, you know, these were all poor black victims and, and,

Just historically, you're not going to get the same attention being poor, number one, and then being a minority, number two. So that's one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a lot of political stuff involved with this with these murders. And it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about. So within the investigation, you know, we uncovered some of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves of why no one was hearing about it. But we took it upon ourselves to say, look,

If you've never heard about this, it's important and you should know about it. So we want to just tell that story. And really the ultimate goal was, look, if we can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're not really haven't maybe heard the entire story because there's been so much rumor and so many conspiracy theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have a platform to tell to speak truth from.

So I wanted to bring these two groups in the middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race, about, you know, the criminal justice system. And I think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I was just going to say there was a little bit of a the perception early on was I don't know. We got a lot of comments from people. This is though. There's no way that pain couldn't have heard of this case.

No, no, he's just making that up for a story. And I got to tell you, the two crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback, one has been the people that were alive at the time and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then literally a whole generation of people that says,

Wait, so 28 African-American kids were killed and I never knew about this? And I think, you know, pain is a lot like our audience in terms of like how could such a big tragedy happen and there never kind of be a big stage to tell this like some of the other serial killers in our history of America. And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah.

Yeah, I found out pretty quickly that born in 87, there was a lot of people like me, I just turned 30 this year, that had never heard of this at all. And, you know, it's such a big tragedy that affected not only the city of Atlanta, but just the whole nation that I found it interesting that there was others out there like myself who had never heard of it. And that was one of the reasons that I chose to continue researching this story and to make it into a podcast. Yeah.

And not only researching, but creating it and producing it up to the very last minute before publish. Yes. So how many people here are caught up? And are you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop of the final episode? Well, we have a surprise for you because we have a preview clip of the final episode. We do? I'm just kidding. We do. We do. We do. We do.

Payne, do you mind just setting it up for us? So this is Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode. There's one episode next week, which will be 10, which is the finale. So tonight's episode, episode nine, is called The Trial. And this is Dale Russell. He's a Fox 5 Atlanta reporter. And he's talking about during the trial...

When Wayne blew up on the stand and it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just how he was convicted in the first place is one of the major points. So this is him talking about it. They had to break him. They had to show the jury a different side of Wayne Williams. They had to let the jury see that this unassuming guy sitting in front of them had this other side to his personality.

And they got it. Wayne Williams was not the mild-mannered witness we saw the last two days. He was irritable, arrogant. Assistant DA Jack Mallard had him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons, didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions, and said his own defense attorney, Mary Welcome, forced him to give an interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams, well, you've got him right here.

As an observer, he was electric. "Mallard, Mr. Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity, haven't you? Williams, no, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here, you telling these folks I fit the profile. Mallard, wasn't these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a fool."

I distinctly remember writing down, I've got it here for you, looking up at somebody, I don't remember who, making eye contact and looking at each other like, oh my gosh, here we go. Here we go. So I think a lot of people are wondering about that first conversation. Can you talk to us like how that unfolded? With Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt about that? It was weird, to be honest.

Um, it was, I think you were in the room and you were in the room and I was like, shh, be quiet. Like one of those things. And I didn't know what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne, not to be confused with Wayne or me pain. Yes. But, um, yeah, I was, I just thought it was, it was super weird, but, um, he was very nice and he was charismatic and he was easy to, I wouldn't say talk to, but listen to at least.

It was hard for me to kind of reel in and sort of give any direction to the conversation like I usually do in an interview or something. But yeah, I just found it very interesting. And it's really, it's been the same since then. It has not wavered at all. He's the same the whole time, which is also very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him, the getting really agitated? I haven't, no. And I'm just curious, in terms of you're actively producing the show now,

As you're talking to him, as people are reaching out to you, how do you balance that kind of following where their story is going, but also needing to lead it and push it? It is extremely difficult, to say the least. Actually, believe it or not, this is how difficult it is. On the way here, I was listening to episode nine on my phone in the elevator to get here to make sure that there was no mistakes in it.

And like that clip you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually in Atlanta. So like this is not how you should do your podcast at all.

Please don't do this to yourself. I agree with that. But if you do, call me and I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's crazy because it opens the door to so many things because a lot of the findings we have and some revelations coming in episode 9 and 10 have been because the podcast got so big and allowed for us to find new things, new information, new people.

So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful, but you still have to build a story arc and map it all out. And there's so many little technical things that make a podcast good. And you still have to do those things. And they take a lot of time. So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time and going here and going there, it's very difficult. You have time for nothing else. And I'm sure that's a thank you to Meredith. Yes. Thank you, Meredith, for putting up with all that. Yeah.

How many interviews... Like, I look in Dropbox and I see all these interviews and all these files. And I was trying to count how many interviews with Wayne or Clips. It's 30, 40, maybe more? What is it? I don't know. There were so many folders in there that I just made a folder that's called stuff that's less important. And I started dumping stuff in there that I was like, that's not important. Because there were so many folders, I couldn't even find one thing. It was probably...

As far as Wayne goes, at least 30 plus calls in there. And even some as recent as a few days ago. So we're excited to kind of come to a conclusion. I know a lot of people during what they're listening, they're like, what's the point? What are you doing? Well, the first point was, have you heard this story before? Do you know all the details to even care about how this could end in the first place? And I think that we're there now, obviously. And so in episode nine, not to give too much away, we kind of explore...

well, why was Wayne convicted in the first place? He was. So what are those bad parts of Wayne Williams? True or not? What convinced a jury that he was guilty? And then from there, we kind of end up in this new place for the first time. And we concluded in episode 10, I don't want to give too much away, but that's where we are. I think this room really wants you to give too much away, but we won't. We'll stop. They're like, what do you mean? Maybe after the microphones turn off. So...

I think what is so wonderful is to see how many people are listening, how many people you have now exposed to this story. How did you think about the audience that you were trying to reach and how did that guide the decisions you made and either the production or how you released it? I think the production, you know, there's different sides of this, you know, and such a polarizing case, everyone picks a side and they stick to it. He's guilty of everything or he's innocent. He did nothing wrong. And, you know,

You've got to find out how do you find an audience within there that's willing to even hear this story from a neutral perspective. And, you know, we did a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing up, as someone who's a different race than the killer and the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens it up so it's bigger than just a black story. Because I think it's important that everyone knows the story, not just one race or another. It's a tragedy that, you know, needs to be exposed. So,

in itself, how you were able to do it, I think, um, brought in a more broad audience. And then even from a, from a marketing perspective, um,

We wanted to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. We did billboards in Atlanta. We did trailers, visual trailers where we ran TV commercials of that trailer on TV One, just targeting a 40 and up urban audience. So we had to identify who we wanted to listen to this. And we kind of knew what that was, but we knew it.

we had to figure out how to actually go get them. So we, you know, we did some things that most people don't do when in podcast promotion. So I think it, I think it worked and I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew that the people of Atlanta have heard this story, but they, you know, were, were intrigued and still interested in it. So the billboard just had the mugshot that if you were around, you remembered that mugshot and that's what the cover is. So when, when that was up on billboards, so many people have come to me and said, Oh yeah, I saw this on spring street or on ponds. Um,

And it intrigued them to even if they hadn't listened, it was on their mind to go and listen. And those billboards were right in the same parts where actually a lot of these kids were found, where we're in in Atlanta, we're in Midtown Atlanta and kind of in a what?

Two to five mile radius is where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone who called into a pastor. I think it was episode two or three. And they're talking about Ponce de Leon Avenue. We're like, that's our address. The guy was down the street at a bar when he called. And it's just, it really brings it home. And I love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Yeah.

Every part of what we did, we wanted to kind of do something big and different. So it wasn't just the story. It was we actually hired an actor and shot some scenes. We did a throw in a what's his name? What was the name of the body?

Rescue Randy. Rescue Randy over the bridge. And just trying to kind of just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or teasers before to build up interest. So kind of build that buzz. And I think it actually drove people nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then four video trailers that would play out in different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they saw it, they would say, wow.

wait, what was that? Like there's shots of pulling kids out of a river and a little boy that's scared of going outside at night. And it just instantly makes you think, I don't know what this is, but I have to listen to this right now. And so that was a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the whole thing to tell a big story. And that's just going big.

Yeah, a lot of people thought it was a television series or something because it was high-quality visuals and reenactments that were used. And when you see it on TV or you see it on the internet and it looks good, we don't want them to think of it as a podcast. I don't know what that is or I don't listen to podcasts. We want it to be good enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And I think, you know...

I think we did that and I think it's still growing and kind of, we want to just set the bar for like how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're growing, they're, you know, they're big and they should be treated as such, you know what I mean? With the marketing and, you know, just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side. Yeah.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. However, one murder of a crime boss sparked a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the mob.

It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Discover how law enforcement and prosecutors took on the mafia and together brought them down. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeartRadio, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. The first two episodes drop on August 22nd.

Plus, did you know that you can listen to the episodes as they come out completely ad-free? Don't miss out. Subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel today. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared love of American history and primary source materials. I'd love for you to talk about how much that influenced the story. And I think a big thank you has to go out to the archivists who kept all this material for you to then dig through.

This is Jason's expertise here. It's an interesting backstory. So the University of Georgia has been holding onto WSTV's video archives. It's down in a vault in a basement in the University of Georgia, which is what, about an hour or so outside of Atlanta in Athens, Georgia. And they've just had all these original – they were video clips. And they have a series of researchers and archivists that were waiting one day for someone to show up.

and want to tap into this. And it was us. And I just, I think it adds again, that layer to the story that is interesting. It also, it's jarring when you hear, you know,

people talking about so-and-so identified themselves as a homosexual. And it's just not the way we talk anymore. And this wasn't kind of, you know, Joe average person on the street. This is actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's just, I think, hearing stories told differently using that archive material.

but also to kind of move the story forward in an emotional way, I think is really interesting. But Payne can speak to this. We didn't just want this to be a history lesson or a history channel type experience. It needed to go deeper than that. And so the archive footage was always meant to help move the story forward, but not be the story itself.

Yeah, I think one interesting tidbit about the archives that you guys might find interesting is that each clip you hear is 30 seconds or 60 seconds of a clip that's like an hour long. And then there's literally several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged all the clips by name and number with time codes and kind of described what was being talked about.

But so in between there, you have all this other bizarre stuff from the 80s. And it's actually, some of it's hilarious. Just actually looking back and seeing just society in 1980. Yes, yes. Bizarre things from the 80s. So now we just have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk about it, but now we have to talk about it. Jason's Us Weekly magazine. Another obsession. I'm a history major, so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I talked about this on our special episode called The Vault, which is...

The fact that Wayne was just all over the media and kind of attached to this, and he did an interview with Us Weekly, which is kind of this salacious, dramatic magazine.

And I got obsessed trying to find this. And so I searched the Internet. It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it and got kind of two pristine copies of the two editions. And there it was. And it was kind of positioned next to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and kind of all this stuff.

And I just, I still, I look at it and I can't get my arms around it and understand it. But it is another crazy layer to this case for sure. And I borrowed it from you and you text me and was like, do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, I still have it. Okay, can you bring it to me when you're done? I was like, yeah, sure, that's fine. So full disclosure, I asked Jason to bring it today. I think he was afraid to have it leave his office. It's probably on his desk in a case. Don't lie, you brought it. It's in your pocket. Yeah.

So, actually, what that brings us to is how are you balancing then the first person? Because I think to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel like a history lesson. And you really went out and drove around the neighborhoods where this happened. How did you balance those two of the archival and then first person interviews? Well, to me, the history element of this is actually the most important part of it.

But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project, that would be boring to me. And so I wanted to bring new information and mesh the two together and tell a different story than just me playing archive clips for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what happened one time.

I wanted to bring in new information, explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and everything else and all the racial bifurcations that are just so prevalent in the story and just tell it the right way. And to me, that was sticking true to the history of it because the history is important, but also bringing new information to the table.

And what did you feel like you wanted to tell so far that you haven't been able to? Because you have done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into the side stories. Is there any story still nagging at you? It's hard to say. I mean, this story is so complex and there's so much you could tell. You could make 100 podcasts on this, but...

To me, the biggest thing, and I want to just tell people so badly what I'm thinking sometimes.

But this is not really the place to do that. There's also one of those things, too, where just listen to the end. Listen one through ten and then come talk to me. And so week by week, I'm like, ah, you just don't know what you don't know yet. So that kind of stuff is... Why isn't he talking about this? Wayne's got him. Yeah, exactly. Stuff like that. We also can't really say from...

tell people what we think or pain can't just weigh in on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently and we've changed positions on this thing several times um we have conversations you know internally with our production staff with pain and

from week to week, you know, we, we might feel, feel differently. So it's important that even for us that, you know, we're waiting to the end to really say, okay, we've digested all this. We know, you know, what was left out. We know what we've covered in the podcast and, you know, how do we feel about this? And, but yeah, you have to wait to the end to really form an opinion. Yeah. And part of that too is, um, I think I'm not spoiling anything when I say, um,

you know, pain is not saying this is how I feel and this is how you should feel. Part of this is all of us should be listening to this and going through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well, you know,

What is my bias? And why am I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta? Is it because I was of age at the time and I remember that? Or maybe I don't know anything about it? And I think...

You know, one of the things that we want to leave with anyone that's listened is how do I make up my own mind? But why am I making my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias? What have I collected here? And you may not have a clear answer. And that's OK, too.

Yeah, I think that's great. As a listener, it's almost a relief to hear you say this because I certainly from week over week would feel one way and then listen to the next episode and feel the other way and sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's going down kind of his pathways of the conversations you're having with him, just even in that moment, listening to him would change my perception of him. But you can't forget either, I can't tell you how to feel about something. And a

And a lot of the way I presented this was, "You tell me what you think about episode five, Wayne's World, Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell you what I think. You tell me what you think. I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there and the important parts are highlighted." But that's kind of what this is in a lot of ways is, "What did you get from this?"

And you'll see very quickly, this is why it's so complicated. This is why people still talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so compelling as a listen, because you do have to

think through that and you're pushing us as listeners to get to that point. I know that you've gotten some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that mean to you? And is it this being able to say, I'm just going to put something out there and let the audience react as they see fit? Yeah, I said I'm not a podcaster one time and people got mad about that. But

What I actually meant, if you heard, was it podcast movement? The little thing I said. Basically, all it was is that I was scared to make podcasts before I made a podcast because I didn't think that I fit in. And I still don't fit in that well. It turns out that doesn't matter, actually. And that was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters. If I didn't like podcasters, then me and Jason wouldn't be friends. Right.

But like, seriously, it's to me, it's just the whole labeling of things. People, you know, have a problem with like, well, you're not a podcaster. Well, what are you? You filmmaker, you haven't made a film. It's like, why do I have to be labeled something? Why can't I just like tell stories and do stuff in two years? If I'm doing something wildly different, am I still what I am today? Or am I just the same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like the label thing very much. And the podcast label is,

really, in all honesty, almost deterred me from making a podcast. I did not think that I fit in. That was not my thing. So why would I be good at that? Why would people listen to that? And really, genuinely, I almost didn't do it because of just that. And now I look back like, wow, that would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't do it. So I just choose to tell that story that way.

So yeah, I'm still out of podcasts, if people ask. And it all stems from Up and Vanished, episode one, where, you know, we kind of just disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm Payne Lindsey, I'm doing this podcast, but...

beware, I'm not a podcaster, I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know, don't judge me too hard. And that's where, you know, that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made a statement. It was like to the podcast world, it was to the 5,000 listeners of Up and Vanished episode one. And it just became, you know,

It just steamrolled into this bigger thing. And to be honest, you know, when we first, you know, we know each other through the music industry. And we are both burnt out of, you know, being in the music industry and just the monotony of, you know, what we were doing. And, you know, Payne said, look, I want to do something on the TV and film space. I said, look, I'm down. Let me know what I can do to help. So Up and Vanish, The Disappearance of Terry Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary about

And then when we realized that it costs too much money for us to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's make this a podcast instead. So the entire idea of us getting into a new field and doing some storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So I think that's another reason why he describes himself that way.

And I think this comes back to, Jason, you saying just looking for the big stories and really being able to jump into those and tell those in whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was saying this yesterday on a panel that I was a part of. I think I got this right, but I think it's been 1,343 days since Cereal launched.

You've been counting every day? I did my homework before I came here. It's on the desk with the Us Weekly. He has white chalk on his wall. One line for each. And, I mean, total props to that show. It continues to be in the top 20 or top 30 on Apple Podcasts every single week.

And so when you look at this in a positive way, you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter kit for anyone that is new to podcasts, this is, I think everyone's gone through that, right? Oh my gosh, serial. You have to listen to serial. Now it's serial and S town. And, and I think that's been great to kind of get people in the door, but I think we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the idea around Atlanta monster was how does tender foot and how stuff works kind of come together as, as,

cool, credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different disciplines and kind of elevate in our own way one story that might be bigger and do things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind of getting out there. And I look at the industry and I want to see more. And I think listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more and we need to give them more.

Um, that's why everyone's talking about Atlanta monster. Not that I'm not trying to kind of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but we, I think we fed them something they really wanted. I'll say you're awesome. How's that? Uh, thank you. That's nice.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. However, one murder of a crime boss sparked a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the mob.

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So I'm actually hearing a lot of people say that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast, that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like for a lot of people, Serial was that starter kit. But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you feel about that? That's pretty cool. Because Serial is why I made a podcast, basically. Because I would not have known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey, ever heard of Serial? I was like, no, what's that? And then I started listening to Serial. And then so when I went to go make this podcast,

up and vanish documentary which was going to be a tv series at first um i was like well i really liked cereal so i went to go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of see how it was made or what was out there and i decided that i should make one donald

Yeah, I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when someone says, look, you brought me into this new space, never listened to a podcast before. Because I hadn't listened to a podcast until Up and Vanished, episode one. That was the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Payne was like, look, Payne. They hope before it published, right? Probably right about, right, maybe a day before. No, I mean, probably, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, and then the first thing Payne told me was, look,

if we're going to do this and do it right, you got to go listen to Serial. So the second podcast was to do with Serial. And then when it started to blow up, we said, okay, look, we now have a podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was a cheat sheet for how we're going to start up our own podcasting company. So this just goes to show you could not be a podcast listener, never have made a podcast before. And it's all about the storytelling and

trying to tackle big stories and just telling them in a way that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where, you know, they're going to be polarizing to the listener. You have to really tell the big stories and it intrigues people and brings them in when they feel like,

This is something that I can't talk to everyone about. That's what podcasting really is. It's you and your earbuds. You know, it's a private experience and you want to try to bring that out to the larger community and people obsess over. They want to talk to their friends about it. Are you listening to Up and Vanish? You listening to Atlanta Monsters? So that's what we want to hear that, you know, hey, I never listened to this, but it was so good. And I heard about it so much that I wanted to come into the podcast under the podcast intent just to listen to your podcast. So.

Yeah, that's what I love about audio. It can go from being that really personal, intimate experience to then that very shared community. Exactly that. When you find someone else that's listening to the show that you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them about it. How do you build that connection with your audience? It's hard to say exactly because...

I'm on the other end of it. I don't have the same experience as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience with this show or whatever show I'm working on because you hear it so much, it's not exactly the same anymore. All the material is just not the same. To me, it's like, who in here makes a podcast or wants to? Anyone in here trying to do that? Okay, that's a pretty good amount. When we say good storytelling, do you even know what we're talking about?

I would be like, what are you talking about? You know what I mean? I think that a good podcast, at least the kind that we've been making, it's not just telling a good overall story. It's the very tiny little things that matter. It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of someone talking.

Just making the listening experience clean. And you begin to depend on it. And you don't even know what those things actually are anymore. You might listen to another podcast and be like, I don't know, I don't like it as much, but I don't really know why. It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details. We're trying to make it sound good. Also, we're trying to tell a big story and to tell it right. But we're also focusing just as much on making something sound good. So if you want to make your own podcast...

you know, that's really what you should focus on. To be honest, if you have good content and you're trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's going to be good. People are going to like it. Yeah. And I think, um, I, I love, um, the kind of backstory on, on the use of music in the, in the podcast too. Um, and that's highly underrated as a, as a mechanism for, for driving emotion in podcasts. And, uh,

I mean, I love how this kind of got cranked, got cranking as we... Yeah, early on I was like, I want this 80s music throughout the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify. His name is Makeup and Vanity Set. It's just one guy. I thought it was this big group of people. No, it's just a guy and his laptop. He's awesome.

But I called him up. I was like, hey, would you be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to Up and Vanished and was like, I totally get it now. And he's just progressed as every episode has gone by, making amazing music. To me, I like that. I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort of being there in the moment. Some people don't like the music. I kind of like it. So that's why you always hear it that way. But make what you like and just

Make it your best. That's pretty much it. How much of that is influenced from your music background? I don't know. I think it's just kind of, to me, I always sort of thought podcasts were kind of boring. I didn't really listen to talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of get into that. So when I first made Up and Vanish, I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling. What would suck me in? And so I had this sort of these music beds in the background and just sort of setting the scene and making this

that really grabs you. So it comes from that, really, to be honest. Yeah, I'd agree. I mean, Payne's music background goes, it goes back a long way. So he understands, you know, production. He understands music.

The timing, even when it comes to how interviews are edited and, you know, how that one second pause or, you know, those things make a big difference. Those things are huge. Yeah. So if you don't know why you like one podcast more than another, it has a lot to do with the editing, the production. I think also, you know, the music like we talked about, but I think the relatability of the host plays a huge part in it because...

You could listen to a really great story or an interesting story, but the person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak isn't the language that you're understanding, how they phrase things. I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and I felt like,

Is the host just trying to show me how smart they are by the way they're trying to tell this story? I just want to hear a good story. It doesn't have to be told from the perspective or from, you know, you spent, you know,

and weeks writing this one part to see, oh, let me, you know, go in the thesaurus and figure out a better word to say here that makes me sound even smarter. It's like, just tell me a story so I can relate to it. And those are the things that, you know, you're like, why do I like this and not that one? Both could be good stories, but how is it relating to you? With Payne, he's like the audience when it comes to like, oh, I might go and knock on a door just like that. But the journalist or the attorney might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's,

That's not the way we would do it by the book. But pain is like, okay, let me call this guy up. Let me record this call. So it's things that we would just all do as the listener if we were hosting our own podcast. So I think that's a huge part of it. So you're saying that I should buy a thesaurus, basically? Yeah, definitely. Got it. Yeah.

I was just going to say, there's a clip at the beginning, I think, is it episode five? And it's a really frustrating two, three minute interlude of all the things you had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on the call. And, you know, some people are like, oh, how could you do that? The prison recording. Yeah. Episode five, we're like, oh, you're like, okay, well, it's a little long.

But you're like, I knew that. But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about 15 minutes and that was about two and a half minutes. And I kept trimming it down. This is a little too long. But I wanted you to be like, good grief. This is ridiculous. You don't hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is that is that's the longest number I've ever been read. Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem. This is archaic sounding. This is what you have to do. I thought it was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone does when they talk to someone in jail. This is insane. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, I mean, not to get too intellectual about it, but like, wow, the prison system and everything about this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. And look what you have to do to just talk to someone. And just putting it out there for people to observe and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to it. That's the whole point. That's the whole point.

So you did go and knock on doors and show up at people's houses. How did you build the rapport to get them to talk to you? To be honest, I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did, at least. I just called people and said, "Hey, you don't know me. I want to talk," basically. But no, I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story. So depending on who you're talking to, you're always sensitive to who this person is and how they're related to this case and this story.

You can't ever forget that it's the most important part of this. So if you're always keeping that in mind and you're trying to be a people person and just find a way to relate to somebody, then most of the time it works.

Jason? Yeah, I mean, don't let your own voice get in the way of someone being able to tell you a story. And I think, especially if you listen to episode one, I think you're barely in that episode. And it's because... And that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, I've seen some press on this where, yes, we talk to FBI agents and APD officers and television anchors, but actually just talking, and of course, you know,

families of the victims and such, but also just people who grew up at that time. And listening to those people, I think is just super important. And it's just, you know, hey, I grew up in this neighborhood and this is how I felt. And they don't have to be anyone that is of a high position in the city or were involved in the case. We just want to know how you feel. That's super important to just listen. Yeah. Every single interview you hear, every single one,

Meredith and I are both there in person for every single one of them. And I often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person is telling their story. It's not my story. And, um,

I just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. I'm not trying to be a part of the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what they're telling me. I'm hearing it for the first time like you guys are as they're telling me. So I'm not trying to broadcast a conversation with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so they can kind of take the stage themselves.

And then what's your process of putting it together? Because now you were there for it, hearing it the first time. And then obviously when you're editing it, you're hearing it over and over again. How do you not get too close and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment of hearing it for the first time? As you're listening to it,

as you do the interview, you kind of go, oh, yep, that's pretty important or that's a good part or that's a really interesting line that has to go in there. So stuff like that, you kind of just try to remember that or take notes. But then when it comes down to the interview, you have to kind of go back and forth when you're editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broadening

about it and then being very hyper-focused on one little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what the word means, but does this sound funky? Does this sound okay? And then, you know, does this story chronologically make sense? And then should I interject myself here and give a little further explanation on that? Or should I just, you know, put this here so it makes sense to come right after that? And the goal for me is to

The less narration that's needed, the better podcast edit it is. If it can go five minutes without me talking, that means that it all made enough sense for you to sit back and hear people just talking and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty hard to do. So if you can do that, you're doing a pretty good job.

Jason? Agree. Yeah, you agree? Yes. Okay, Donald and Jason agree. That's good. Yeah, no, the sauce is right there in the edit and in not getting in your own way. The worst thing you can do is over-talk if you're interviewing someone because they could be about to say something great and then you hear you come back

bumbling all over the place and interjecting what you want them to say or trying to get to the point faster than the pace that they're going to get to it eventually at. So I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people talk and then being able to pull those little things out. That's what they do. You all ask the question sometimes and I'll just sit there five seconds of awkward silence with somebody and I'm just like,

And they're like, so, and they just start filling the air with something because they feel obligated to. You know what I mean? It's like, it felt weird to me at first, just kind of just...

you know, someone's going to eventually sort of talk. I'm not like, it's not like a standoff. It's more like a, you know, I'm not, I'll just be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might be waiting. And then before I'm about to talk, they start talking. It's not easy. So that's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so you know. I just wrote it for myself. You can save that for later. Because it's not as easy as it sounds. I do some like pre-interviews where I'll just record a conversation with someone to see what are they going to give us if Payne is going to, you know, talk to them or not. So

I try to hear kind of what they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And it's really not easy because you get into it. You want them to tell you what's next. You want to be conversational. You don't want to just sit there and just not say anything. They're like, are you there? Are things okay? You want to be engaged enough and just find little moments like, yeah, absolutely. Just like be there with them in the conversation, but not talk over them or steer it too much. Yeah.

It just takes practice, pretty much. And I was going to say, you know, part of how stuff works and Tenderfoot working together, I think our approach with creators is to kind of let them have the floor and let them do it their way. And so it gets a little hairy at the end as we're trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff. And that's...

Absolutely okay. But I just, I don't, like I was talking about earlier about like there being a template for how you do a show. The last thing that we want to do is tell Payne and Meredith and Donald, like, this is the way you need to do the show because this is the way that House to Forks has always done that show. And so it doesn't mean that we don't add

certain rigors and discipline about production and research and kind of all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I stand firm in saying we need to let creators tell their story and every one of them can be completely different and have different personalities and the whole thing. And that's the whole point is really letting them run. So episode nine tonight, episode 10, which is the final episode,

How do you feel about it wrapping now? Wow. I need to go to the beach or something. I feel it's been like the longest feeling 10 weeks ever. I don't even know how I feel about it, to be honest. I'm still...

in it right now, so I don't really even know. But I'm happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned a lot. And I was pretty nervous about this project because I knew it was big and I thought that it was

another thing that it was just too big for me i thought that maybe i'm not the right guy for this you know i actually thought those things before i did it but um you know i put a lot of effort into doing it the right way and i think in a lot of ways it paid off so um you know i'm i'm proud of it i think that the team house of works donald meredith everyone at house of works uh did a great job and um you know i'm excited to see what what comes next i'm also excited to have

have a complete project out there one through 10 and so you know we can with every listener i meet i can have a full conversation about the whole thing that's great yeah and now it's time to actually talk to some of your listeners and open things up for q a question in the back

Hi, my name is Miwa. I'm from Tokyo. I don't know you said it's just a story, but what percentage is fact and what percentage fiction do you think? And how do you make an effort to take fact? So

All Up and Vanished and Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything up or staged anything or anything like that.

Um, so all the stuff you're hearing is, is legit and real. Um, I like to take these real life moments and build them up to give you the same feeling that I felt when, when it was happening to me or anyone else on our team who was telling the story, or when we're going back in time to recreate a moment that happened somewhere else. So, um, you know,

It's all factual stuff. And, you know, we're proud of that. And, you know, just so happens that with both podcasts now we've dug up some crazy stories and we just choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes you might think this that this isn't real, but it is. So, yeah. And there's another point to that, which is, you know, oh, my gosh, down the conspiracy rabbit hole here.

I have to tell you that most of the stories that we are actually putting out there and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've been talked about for 30 or 40 years and we're presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually why this case continues to be so confusing and I think so divided is the fact that these theories, whether they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people in the kind of the connected universe of this case

The whole point is to actually say, listen, people have been talking about all these little elements for years, and here they are. Here they are. And again, make up your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those, whatever you want to call them, up to the surface and presenting them to you, the listeners. Also, on the conspiracy conversation, I think we're not just pushing like anything.

a crackpot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If it's crackpot, millions of people actually believe that. So it would be

It wouldn't be authentic if we didn't present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So we're not pushing those, but it's, you know, it's our duty to kind of tell the truth about all these different opinions and what people actually believe and then try to break down, okay, why does this person think that way? And I think that's what we, hopefully we've been able to do that through the podcast where if you hear something that sounds crazy, we present what drove that person or these millions of people to think this way.

Hi, I'm a longtime HowStuffWorks listener. There's a ton of new podcasts from HowStuffWorks right now, a lot of different than what they were before. So like ethnically ambiguous, culture kings, that sort of thing. I was wondering if you could talk about like the impetus or reasons why HowStuffWorks sort of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question. Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, you know, we've...

I won't bore you with the business details, but we had the ability to raise some money that allows that podcast business to be its own standalone business.

And frankly, a lot of our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think at last count, we saw something around 30 new shows in some level of production where we only had about 12 to 15 shows total over the years. And so our North Star has always been around curiosity, and that will continue to be our core focus. But we're also just podcast fans too, and we want to...

We want to cover lots of things like comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. We're going to get into some fiction. We're going to get into some health and wellness and some other big categories. And we just also just didn't want it to be, you know, just the same voices. I think if you look at a snapshot of our employees, we're

They're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we have, too. So we want more women. We want different types of across the board with diversity. And I think there's a hunger across each of those groups for more programming like this. So you're going to see a lot more from us this year. And we're really excited about it. Are they all moving into your building? Yeah.

No, I mean, part of this is, you know, we're not going to be able to do every bit of this ourselves. And so we really want to work with the best creators out there. And I think, you know, Payne and Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot team is really great.

got us thinking about how do we do our own stuff, but then how do we also tell stories that we could never naturally do by ourselves and kind of go in places that we've never been. We had never done a true crime anything until this. It was a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with, and it was new to us and a little bit daunting. Time for one last question.

Hi, my name is Lisa. Payne, I know you're trying to go to the beach, but I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached by people with ideas and how you decide what your next project is going to be. Well, what's next is Up and Advantage Season 2 before anything else, which will be a new case. And I've chosen the case, and it's not in Georgia. That's all I can say about it now. But it's going to come out...

summer, like late midsummer. So that'll be the first thing up. We're also working on up and advantage, the TV series on oxygen, which were, um, really foreign development on, and we'll be shooting some stuff in a couple of months. And so hopefully that'll come out within the year. And also some stuff with Elena monster, as far as, um, possibly doing some visual stuff for that as well. And then there'll eventually be another podcast, um, from me, tenderfoot, um,

in the same vein as these possibly. There's also other arenas I want to jump into or other genres, I should say, in the podcast world I want to jump into, some being fiction as well. So I don't really know what that other project is that you're talking about, but I do have some awesome ideas and it's brewing right now. So I hope that answered your question.

Great. Well, thank you. Thank you, Payne. I know you've been traveling and trying to finish the last episode, so we really appreciate you being here. It's done. It's done. Done. 12.01 a.m. tonight. Stay up and have nightmares. We're all going to tackle Jason on the way out to get his phone because it's on there. Thank you, Jason. This guy. Thank you, Donald. Thanks, guys.

This podcast is brought to you by TuneIn, which brings together all of the live sports, music, news, and podcasts you love. Original, live, and on-demand audio all in one place. Go to tunein.com slash atlantamonster to download and listen.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood...

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished.

A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why? Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.